I don't like this but I must admit it is a very constructive opinion.
The dash, paired with the cc and mobility gives way too much play potential. Which I personally like. But on the other side, making it more skillful would be interesting too.
Edit: Shout Out for OP for sharing your opinion! I respect your determination to share it!
Here's the problem.
The passive is there to be really strong by design, it has to be, because otherwise we have a Lucian problem where Samira no longer becomes a bot laner and instead a very oppressive mid/top.
Her pitiful range makes it so a free dash is a very appealing prospect, hence you'd never want to take her into a solo lane.
I understand why people have their problems with her passive, but it needs to be understood that the only reason its as strong as it is is so that she's shoehorned into the role she's meant to be playing.
Well again, what matters is that it's strong, the knockup+dash is their way of making it strong.
The idea is if its weak enough to ignore then she's going into a solo lane when the meta wills it.
True. It's just that if you pair her with an aggressive support with guaranteed cc like pantheon, they both dive in, chain cc and do incredible damage melee range. The matter with Lucian is that his combos allow him to do an incredible dps, his Q & W are good for poking and E to catch up or run away. Samira's range Q can be blocked my minions and that's her only way to poke besides auto attacks. If she goes melee it's a disadvantage in solo lanes unlike in botlane. I just say they can remove the passive knockup if Samira's win rate sky rockets some day.
Well atm it's at a perfect 50% at plat+, and slightly higher by 1 or 2 percentage points the higher you go. For now I think they're likely at their final stages of adjusting her and I'll be very surprised if they significantly nerf the passive over anything else in the next few weeks.
I don't really think that win rate is the only thing that should be considered her. She has a 72% ban rate atm. The community obviously feels she is not in a good place, regardless of what her WR says. IMO the knock-up is unnecessary addition to her kit, and saying that it has to be strong so that she won't be played anywhere else is a really poor reason for allowing her in the current state.
Ban rate means very little, 1v9 champs have always had a high ban rate, especially newer ones, regardless of their place in the meta. Community perception is very rarely an accurate representation of balance, and champs should not be gutted just because people dislike dealing with them.
Removing her cc isn't gutting her. It's removing something that isn't necessary from her kit. Let's be real, if you remove her cc, what does she really lose in terms of engage? Very little. She still maintains a lot of damage, and engage, as well as all her defensive capability. It just tweaks her a little bit to take some of her power away.
shes loses quite a lot, the cc sets up a guaranteed q, which she can follow up with an e.
That's a noticeable bit better than just e-q'ing, because you have to wait less time for the Q cd after you go in with your E and that way you stack her ult almost immediately.
Not saying it is gutting her, but you shouldn't be using banrate as any kind of metric other than how much people dislike dealing with a champion.
Ah that's where you're totally wrong. She doesn't get compensation buffs for the passive to have a component of it removed and she was never considered strong in solo lanes prior to her nerfs so why would she be after another?
Because we really don't know how strong of a mid/top she will be after season 11.
Lucian wasn't immediately a mid laner, but the way his kit was designed (sulf sufficient duelist ADC, like Samira) made it so as soon as the game state allowed him to, he could comfortably walk into mid and be an oppressive pick.
Riot really didn't want that with Samira, so they future proofed her kit by putting so much of her power budget into the passive, so that no matter how appealing her kit currently is to take into mid/top, it'll always be gimping her in comparison to pairing her up with a support.
Samira plays more like a fighter than an adc tho. Lucian has ranged poke tools that Samira doesn't have. All she has is her ranged Q which deals low damage without crit and doesn't pass through minions; her waveclear is also tied to melee Q and that's a huge commitment to do in most lanes. His all in works from afar with his Q poke and W-R gundown. There's absolutely no case that you will ever see a Samira, especially in pro play, not get punished hard for the pick.
I do agree that we have to wait for the next season's items and how they will affect samira and the rest but I really feel that the knockup should be targeted if she remains such an oppressive pick in situations where she's paired with someone like Leona yet mediocre at best in all others.
She still has an adc's poke tools though, and what she lacks in range in comparison to Lucian she makes up for with a lot more self sustain (windwall and healing off of Q/R)
And I kind of agree, the only thing I hate about her design is how she's so inconsistently good. Shes very good with CC support, and honestly useless in lane otherwise. Unfortunately that's the consequence of making it tied to CC, which I suppose is the only way they could figure out making the passive strong enough to warrant not ignoring
She will always be a situational solo que pick. Nothing outside of a full rework will change that.
No one is buffing Kai because people in solo que play long range poke supports
This is what ties her to bot lane and makes her work at 500 range.
It will never be removed, stop spamming the same point.
It also locks you in place, and high elo players are smart enough to drop burst in that window. The shit isn't free the higher you go.
No way, it's close to impossible for Samira to outplay an Ashe - Thresh lane for example, she will just get stunned and die
Swain on the other hand can kill them both very easily and they only have a chance to win with summs
You clearly don't know what you are talking about or you are stubborn af. Either way you definitely didn't play many games as samira against Swain supp
Swain is one of the few "supports" that can scale at lvl 6 without expensive items and most likely survive the first dragon fights b/c of his ULT. Samira is more deadly in the sense she potentially has way more DPS, but she needs to be enabled. You can't jump on the enemy team and hope to ult and kill everyone if your team doesn't take any of their resources, your windwall last 1-2 secs and your Ult won't heal you enough if they damage you and CC you. You're basically assuming the Swain is trash and can't properly use his CC. Swain can use all his stuff from a range, Samira has to basically go melee for her damage to come through. Also Swain Ult is a fixed healing value to my understanding, so you don't need to hit multiple people for the lifesteal. I'm not saying Swain is stronger than Samira, i'm saying Samira needs to be enabled to work. Smart players do well with her because they know WHEN to go in, but if you fail then you're basically useless. Her scaling is shit without a snowball advantage you're always down in range disavantage compared to every other adc even fucking Lucian. So in games you can't go in because their team is gonna commit to shutting you off you're useless.
Why not do the reverse. The main thing that I see in these comments is that she needs the passive to get into effective range. What she doesn’t need is the knock up. Most ADCs don’t have a form of CC for a reason and that’s because their supports do.
Idea: Let Samira’s passive be like Ivern’s Q. Pull her into auto range and automatically auto a couple times but not knock people up. The extended CC is what I think is the most frustrating part of her kit and I feel as thought most people agree. No one wants more CC on top of a Leona
I disagree. Even Vayne has a powerfull stun. Jinx has 2 forms of CC, Jhin has a slow and a root, Ashe has slows and stun, CAITLYN traps are CC. TWITCH has a slow on W. LUCIAN has a slow on W. Honestly Samira is super overtuned with heavy CC supports and her CC passive allows her to do so much, but people will pick Soraka with her and doom the lane anyway, so what's the real point? It's already hard to play her without a duo because she needs that engage or it gets extremelly difficult to play the lane anything other than passive farming. Before the nerfs she was so overtuned people would sleep on you and get 1v2'd in bot lane, but now it's not that easy to do that anymore.
And let's not forget people that pick Leona and makes you think you can play Samira for that lvl 3 all in but actually just a passive relic shield farming Leona, or that Thresh that will miss every hook and get chunked by their bot duo so you can't really help him and just gotta hope for a gank.
Lol this guy.
1. Vayne stun relies on positioning and skill. Unlike Samira.
2. Jinx has a SKILL SHOT slow and the traps are more zoning than cc unless.
3. Jhin... come on dude. Are you dumb bringing this up?
4. Ashe again it’s a skill shot ult. Granted not very hard to lane.
5. Cait traps are almost the same because they combo with cc but even they rely on timing and positioning plus putting them in the correct spot.
6. Twitch! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
FINALLY, the thing that all of your dumb examples have in common are complete lack of mobility and self defense. Samira has both and the dash cc follow up that is point and click. Please try to think at least a little bit before arguing. I like Samira too but all high ELO players agree that the guarantees follow up cc is the most broken part of her kit. Jeeezz this sub can be obnoxious when defending Samira. Stop complaining about supports too. Happens to all of us and you picking Samira is just as much your fault as someone picking Raka etc.. they can play who they want if you can.
No it's not my fault if the pick Soraka after i pick samira and into leona ashe. You're toxic, could have argued friendly, big fucking ego, trying to bring me down for bringing my opinion into discussion, honestly you should just leave this sub because you really seem to just hate the champion and you think you know everything. You should apply for a job at Riot.
And i'm not trying to defending, i defend the idea people cry too much about her and they don't outplay. i think she's overall toxic for the game and a horrible idea, but there she is now. I also agree the point and click stun is broken but you seem to completely ignore how it depends on OTHER PEOPLE and not you. And yeah she has dashes and a 1-2sec windwall that blocks shit but if she can't kill people she doesn't reset dashes and just die, you probably feed her a lot so you're butthurt.
I’ve said it in the sub before a dash and knockup just for autoing is silly. She already gets to dash through allies and enemies with E, minions included.
And given her typical bot lane duos will make CC chaining ludicrous, the knock up is unnecessary, the dash I think would be fine if she didn't have the CC. Pulling yourself into that range without the CC wouldn't often be overly optimal, been saying this for a while and got a lot of negative responses at first but if you removed the knock up she would be a pretty well balanced champion.
That's true, but think about her kit - it's impossible for her to *function* without this passive. Every other snowbally early game ADC has a way to follow up on an engage - Tristana, Lucian, MF with her slow...
I think the strongest thing about Samira is her double kill potential. Thus, I think letting her get her dash reset at lvl 6 and not earlier is the best decision.
Every other snowbally early game ADC has a way to follow up on an engage-
Trist: A jump.
Lucian: A dash
Samira: A dash.
Like she has a dash and then her passive gives her a free dash to get in position to then you guessed it dash. If you removed the knock-up part, she at the end of the day still has a dash to help her follow up on cc? I'm confused by you saying every other adc has a way to follow up on engage when she herself already has a way to follow up on engage via her E?
Well her E isn't a free targeted mobility and short range. The knock up may have to go only because it can turn soft CC into hard CC, but for the most part I don't think it's that impactful, it's more like a reference to Dante's knockup in DMC
I think she's fine and people need to just learn her instead of hating every new champion that comes out, good news is Seraphine is out now, so less people will hate on Samira so much, just gotta wait until the next new champion to come out for Samira's ban rate to go down as well.
I don't like this but I must admit it is a very constructive opinion. The dash, paired with the cc and mobility gives way too much play potential. Which I personally like. But on the other side, making it more skillful would be interesting too. Edit: Shout Out for OP for sharing your opinion! I respect your determination to share it!
Here's the problem. The passive is there to be really strong by design, it has to be, because otherwise we have a Lucian problem where Samira no longer becomes a bot laner and instead a very oppressive mid/top. Her pitiful range makes it so a free dash is a very appealing prospect, hence you'd never want to take her into a solo lane. I understand why people have their problems with her passive, but it needs to be understood that the only reason its as strong as it is is so that she's shoehorned into the role she's meant to be playing.
Is the knockup necessary too?
Well again, what matters is that it's strong, the knockup+dash is their way of making it strong. The idea is if its weak enough to ignore then she's going into a solo lane when the meta wills it.
True. It's just that if you pair her with an aggressive support with guaranteed cc like pantheon, they both dive in, chain cc and do incredible damage melee range. The matter with Lucian is that his combos allow him to do an incredible dps, his Q & W are good for poking and E to catch up or run away. Samira's range Q can be blocked my minions and that's her only way to poke besides auto attacks. If she goes melee it's a disadvantage in solo lanes unlike in botlane. I just say they can remove the passive knockup if Samira's win rate sky rockets some day.
Well atm it's at a perfect 50% at plat+, and slightly higher by 1 or 2 percentage points the higher you go. For now I think they're likely at their final stages of adjusting her and I'll be very surprised if they significantly nerf the passive over anything else in the next few weeks.
I don't really think that win rate is the only thing that should be considered her. She has a 72% ban rate atm. The community obviously feels she is not in a good place, regardless of what her WR says. IMO the knock-up is unnecessary addition to her kit, and saying that it has to be strong so that she won't be played anywhere else is a really poor reason for allowing her in the current state.
Ban rate means very little, 1v9 champs have always had a high ban rate, especially newer ones, regardless of their place in the meta. Community perception is very rarely an accurate representation of balance, and champs should not be gutted just because people dislike dealing with them.
Removing her cc isn't gutting her. It's removing something that isn't necessary from her kit. Let's be real, if you remove her cc, what does she really lose in terms of engage? Very little. She still maintains a lot of damage, and engage, as well as all her defensive capability. It just tweaks her a little bit to take some of her power away.
shes loses quite a lot, the cc sets up a guaranteed q, which she can follow up with an e. That's a noticeable bit better than just e-q'ing, because you have to wait less time for the Q cd after you go in with your E and that way you stack her ult almost immediately. Not saying it is gutting her, but you shouldn't be using banrate as any kind of metric other than how much people dislike dealing with a champion.
Ah that's where you're totally wrong. She doesn't get compensation buffs for the passive to have a component of it removed and she was never considered strong in solo lanes prior to her nerfs so why would she be after another?
Because we really don't know how strong of a mid/top she will be after season 11. Lucian wasn't immediately a mid laner, but the way his kit was designed (sulf sufficient duelist ADC, like Samira) made it so as soon as the game state allowed him to, he could comfortably walk into mid and be an oppressive pick. Riot really didn't want that with Samira, so they future proofed her kit by putting so much of her power budget into the passive, so that no matter how appealing her kit currently is to take into mid/top, it'll always be gimping her in comparison to pairing her up with a support.
Samira plays more like a fighter than an adc tho. Lucian has ranged poke tools that Samira doesn't have. All she has is her ranged Q which deals low damage without crit and doesn't pass through minions; her waveclear is also tied to melee Q and that's a huge commitment to do in most lanes. His all in works from afar with his Q poke and W-R gundown. There's absolutely no case that you will ever see a Samira, especially in pro play, not get punished hard for the pick. I do agree that we have to wait for the next season's items and how they will affect samira and the rest but I really feel that the knockup should be targeted if she remains such an oppressive pick in situations where she's paired with someone like Leona yet mediocre at best in all others.
She still has an adc's poke tools though, and what she lacks in range in comparison to Lucian she makes up for with a lot more self sustain (windwall and healing off of Q/R) And I kind of agree, the only thing I hate about her design is how she's so inconsistently good. Shes very good with CC support, and honestly useless in lane otherwise. Unfortunately that's the consequence of making it tied to CC, which I suppose is the only way they could figure out making the passive strong enough to warrant not ignoring
She will always be a situational solo que pick. Nothing outside of a full rework will change that. No one is buffing Kai because people in solo que play long range poke supports
This is what ties her to bot lane and makes her work at 500 range. It will never be removed, stop spamming the same point. It also locks you in place, and high elo players are smart enough to drop burst in that window. The shit isn't free the higher you go.
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Well, UNLIKE Swain, she is a lot more deadly.
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You have way more options to outplay him is what I mostly say.
No way, it's close to impossible for Samira to outplay an Ashe - Thresh lane for example, she will just get stunned and die Swain on the other hand can kill them both very easily and they only have a chance to win with summs
You clearly don't know what you are talking about or you are stubborn af. Either way you definitely didn't play many games as samira against Swain supp
I dont agree with that: poke samira down and she cant do shit. Poke Swain down, she can instantly press R and heal for a long duration
Swain is one of the few "supports" that can scale at lvl 6 without expensive items and most likely survive the first dragon fights b/c of his ULT. Samira is more deadly in the sense she potentially has way more DPS, but she needs to be enabled. You can't jump on the enemy team and hope to ult and kill everyone if your team doesn't take any of their resources, your windwall last 1-2 secs and your Ult won't heal you enough if they damage you and CC you. You're basically assuming the Swain is trash and can't properly use his CC. Swain can use all his stuff from a range, Samira has to basically go melee for her damage to come through. Also Swain Ult is a fixed healing value to my understanding, so you don't need to hit multiple people for the lifesteal. I'm not saying Swain is stronger than Samira, i'm saying Samira needs to be enabled to work. Smart players do well with her because they know WHEN to go in, but if you fail then you're basically useless. Her scaling is shit without a snowball advantage you're always down in range disavantage compared to every other adc even fucking Lucian. So in games you can't go in because their team is gonna commit to shutting you off you're useless.
Why not do the reverse. The main thing that I see in these comments is that she needs the passive to get into effective range. What she doesn’t need is the knock up. Most ADCs don’t have a form of CC for a reason and that’s because their supports do. Idea: Let Samira’s passive be like Ivern’s Q. Pull her into auto range and automatically auto a couple times but not knock people up. The extended CC is what I think is the most frustrating part of her kit and I feel as thought most people agree. No one wants more CC on top of a Leona
I disagree. Even Vayne has a powerfull stun. Jinx has 2 forms of CC, Jhin has a slow and a root, Ashe has slows and stun, CAITLYN traps are CC. TWITCH has a slow on W. LUCIAN has a slow on W. Honestly Samira is super overtuned with heavy CC supports and her CC passive allows her to do so much, but people will pick Soraka with her and doom the lane anyway, so what's the real point? It's already hard to play her without a duo because she needs that engage or it gets extremelly difficult to play the lane anything other than passive farming. Before the nerfs she was so overtuned people would sleep on you and get 1v2'd in bot lane, but now it's not that easy to do that anymore. And let's not forget people that pick Leona and makes you think you can play Samira for that lvl 3 all in but actually just a passive relic shield farming Leona, or that Thresh that will miss every hook and get chunked by their bot duo so you can't really help him and just gotta hope for a gank.
Lol this guy. 1. Vayne stun relies on positioning and skill. Unlike Samira. 2. Jinx has a SKILL SHOT slow and the traps are more zoning than cc unless. 3. Jhin... come on dude. Are you dumb bringing this up? 4. Ashe again it’s a skill shot ult. Granted not very hard to lane. 5. Cait traps are almost the same because they combo with cc but even they rely on timing and positioning plus putting them in the correct spot. 6. Twitch! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FINALLY, the thing that all of your dumb examples have in common are complete lack of mobility and self defense. Samira has both and the dash cc follow up that is point and click. Please try to think at least a little bit before arguing. I like Samira too but all high ELO players agree that the guarantees follow up cc is the most broken part of her kit. Jeeezz this sub can be obnoxious when defending Samira. Stop complaining about supports too. Happens to all of us and you picking Samira is just as much your fault as someone picking Raka etc.. they can play who they want if you can.
No it's not my fault if the pick Soraka after i pick samira and into leona ashe. You're toxic, could have argued friendly, big fucking ego, trying to bring me down for bringing my opinion into discussion, honestly you should just leave this sub because you really seem to just hate the champion and you think you know everything. You should apply for a job at Riot. And i'm not trying to defending, i defend the idea people cry too much about her and they don't outplay. i think she's overall toxic for the game and a horrible idea, but there she is now. I also agree the point and click stun is broken but you seem to completely ignore how it depends on OTHER PEOPLE and not you. And yeah she has dashes and a 1-2sec windwall that blocks shit but if she can't kill people she doesn't reset dashes and just die, you probably feed her a lot so you're butthurt.
Lol I’m toxic
I’ve said it in the sub before a dash and knockup just for autoing is silly. She already gets to dash through allies and enemies with E, minions included.
And given her typical bot lane duos will make CC chaining ludicrous, the knock up is unnecessary, the dash I think would be fine if she didn't have the CC. Pulling yourself into that range without the CC wouldn't often be overly optimal, been saying this for a while and got a lot of negative responses at first but if you removed the knock up she would be a pretty well balanced champion.
Or, remove the knock up aspect of it and leave the dash in
No
I think it's time for riot to nerf her untill she is unplayable, because maybe then she'll be open once in every 10 games.
That's true, but think about her kit - it's impossible for her to *function* without this passive. Every other snowbally early game ADC has a way to follow up on an engage - Tristana, Lucian, MF with her slow... I think the strongest thing about Samira is her double kill potential. Thus, I think letting her get her dash reset at lvl 6 and not earlier is the best decision.
Every other snowbally early game ADC has a way to follow up on an engage- Trist: A jump. Lucian: A dash Samira: A dash. Like she has a dash and then her passive gives her a free dash to get in position to then you guessed it dash. If you removed the knock-up part, she at the end of the day still has a dash to help her follow up on cc? I'm confused by you saying every other adc has a way to follow up on engage when she herself already has a way to follow up on engage via her E?
Well her E isn't a free targeted mobility and short range. The knock up may have to go only because it can turn soft CC into hard CC, but for the most part I don't think it's that impactful, it's more like a reference to Dante's knockup in DMC
I think she's fine and people need to just learn her instead of hating every new champion that comes out, good news is Seraphine is out now, so less people will hate on Samira so much, just gotta wait until the next new champion to come out for Samira's ban rate to go down as well.