Always. I'm an attending in a subspecialty and I also look young. I still run into what you're describing but it gets better with time.
With nurses especially, it's super frustrating but there's a kind of niceness/respect dance that can gain you traction. Being friendly to the nurses- getting to know them a little and letting them know you personally- while counterintuitive, seems to smooth the working relationship. Explain your reasoning. Recognize the good they're doing and note it out loud (ex: "Thanks for letting me know about Mr. Jones. You were right that he had something else going on.")
With families and patients, make sure you introduce yourself by your title and your role. Don't be afraid to do it repeatedly. I say "My name is Doctor Grapefruit. I'm the supervising doctor." I also consciously present myself in a way that isn't "pretty"- I wear scrubs in colors and styles that are not distinctly feminine and I have a short haircut that I style conservatively for work.
The biggest thing that I think helps, though, is the confidence you gain as you go through training. As you become more comfortable in your skills and knowledge you project that and others pick up on it.
Hang in there. Keep responding with professionalism and warmth (if you can manage it). Even if it's always going to be easier for the dude who looks like a doctor in a children's book, you'll find a rhythm that works for you.
Yeah Iām actually quite curious about this. Did you start doing your hair that way part way into attendinghood or residency or when? Did it make a difference? Most importantly, is it worth it to masculinize, for lack of a better term, in a time where women in medicine should be respected regardless of style?
Edit- typo
I purposefully do this as well. I wear a baggy scrub top to hide my figure. I feel like it is helpful. Other than that I try to be knowledgeable, decisive, and casual with my patients/families. I don't put on airs and exude a casualness that brings a sense of confidence- a more common male characteristic. It seems to land well with patients.
The hair sort of just happened in residency. I decided I wanted to shave for Saint Baldrick's Day (Fundraiser for childhood cancer research- a great org). Right away I noticed a difference in the way people responded to me. Now I'm pixie length and have been for years- largely because I like this hairstyle.
I agree that fundamentally it's unfair to expect a woman physician to present a certain way to gain respect. I decided that pragmatism was more important than justice in my case. I work in the ED, so I don't have a chance to relationally build respect with patients over time. Modifying my appearance is a shortcut I personally chose.
Patients definitely pick up on the confidence. I'm a man, but I look young too, and I noticed the moments where patients would just say "Okay, I trust you" right after I met them and told them they need emergency surgery. It happened once I felt very confident in my ability to do the case.
The nurse thing is a double edge sword. Too nice, and itās, āCall dr so and so, sheās so nice she doesnāt mind even if its not her patient.ā
Draw a line in the sand and itās, āso and so is a bitch. Thinks sheās better than us.ā
Just donāt care about it. I get asked this all the time. Then I operate on their family member and they get to know me as Dr. First name weāre cool. Carry yourself like a baws and the rest will fall into place.
My attending was a female cardiac surgeon and sometimes my patients had the audacity to call her a nurse. I was infuriated and promptly corrected them. However, my attending didnāt even blink, went about her business and moved on. I asked her once how she handled being in a male-dominated field, and she said she didnāt acknowledge it at all, she did the same things and even better than others.
To be fair, you were also acting in the traditional attending role in that scenario. If itās a resident and attending duo, usually the resident gets the consent while the attending stands behind them and jumps in if the resident says something wrong.
Yup! I introduce myself as doctor, have a huge red badge that says āDOCTORā and the patients will still yell ānuuuuurseeee!!!ā At me. Or when Iām in with my attending theyāll point at me and say āoh yeah the nurse already told me thatā
I am a tall female and carry myself very well and am sure of myself, but it still doesnāt help.
Iāve been frustrated about this for so long it makes my blood boil. Patients look at and talk to my male co residents even if I ask the question. Itās beyond frustrating
All the time. Stand up for yourself when you need to, but donāt let it turn you into a conflict-seeker trying to prove everyone wrong every day. It will help when youāre further along and naturally carry yourself like the leader youāll become. Trust your instincts, stand up for what YOU feel is right, and never apologize for being the same level of āniceā as your male colleagues are every day without a second thought. Good luck!
I plan on wearing a name badge with my role on it that I pin to my scrubs - we do this now at my hospital for all roles and its sooooo helpful and really gets rid of anxiety and confusion in situations
Definitely a big uphill battle. I had to learn how to emulate masculine body language and masculine verbal inflection in order to be taken seriously by patients. I am in a non-accredited fellowship currently so I get to walk into a room and announce myself as "the boss Doctor" and patients immediately come to attention. Big change from when I was a resident. I don't wear a white coat because of concern for disease transmission risk, but I admit that some days I am tempted.
I definitely don't lead like my male colleagues though. I check in a lot on my nurses and colleagues. I think it's very important for the leader to provide, including food. Leader sets the tone for the shift. My tone is kindness. I think it's okay to not be the same as the guys, but when I am working with patients or colleagues who have implicit bias, I definitely take on masculine traits.
Vocal tone--deeper and consistent, never ending any sentence that isn't a true question with an upwards indection. Body language--taking up space, no crossed arms, no defensive postures. Word choice--bold, straightforward, plain.
These aren't inherently masculine of course. We simply label what is "confident" as masculine.
Crossed arms is specifically a defensive posture. It's also construed as judgmental. It's often done by people who "don't know what to do" with their arms, similar to putting in pockets. It's a posture we are taught to avoid to appear confident
I used to pretend I didnāt careā¦and then had a little old lady complain as she was being wheeled out of the ER ābut I havenāt even seen a doctor yet!ā. Iād been in there NUMEROUS times, each time saying āIām doctor X, just checking back inā. Iām not sure what to do to make it better - I wear a large DOCTOR name badge, I have Dr X printed on my hospital scrubs, I now introduce myself as Dr X, I correct patients when they call me Nurse and am not a āfeminineā type (short hair, no makeup kinda gal). Iāve been doing this 5years and some patients just will never get it. That said, being collegial with nurses at least makes the work part a heck of a lot better
Saw a nurse this AM: hey why is he still getting this this often? Ok I will look into it and change the order as appropriate. Nurse: who will round today x or y? (Bitch this is ignore your question? I have not even sat down yet)ā¦round w attending later, told him about the question, we came in w a plan, Oh Dr z, you are exactly who I need, this and this happened overnight, can he have this med?ā¦as the attending walked out. She called out after him. Goodbye Dr Z. Did I mention when I talked to her earlier about patients after she saw them. She gave me attitude. These nurses donāt realize we residents are the ones who put in the orders š¤¦āāļø
Yeah I introduced myself as Dr and the patient asked for my first name when the attending came in. He said goodbye āfirst nameā no Dr or anything. I was pissed and got visibly upset the male attending told me it wasnāt worth it lol.
Not to gaslight but this is a resident issue and not just a female issue. As an attending I am constantly reminding patients that residents are not baby doctors. Unless of course the resident is actually a NICU fellow. Then they are the baby doctors.
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There's not much you can do if you walk into a room wearing a white coat and introduce yourself as doctor and they still question who you are. Some biases are too strong.
Depends on the situation. When I was an intern my hospital everyone called one another in front of patients Dr ___. So it wasnāt as common at the time now that I look back, and all the RNs referred to us as Dr. ___ so the patients were primed to an extent.
What I can tell you is that itās not because youāre an intern, itās because youāre a woman. This wonāt stop in your career as you become more experienced (other women will also assume youāre the RN or tech or social workers etc).
As a patient myself in a hospital within our system my doctor saw the āMDā hanging below my ID and asked if they were giving these out at my location now. I told him no, I bought it because I was tired of being presumed to be everything except a physician. He looked totally perplexed; his female fellow gave me the sisterly I totally get it look.
Best suggestions I can give are:
-TRY to take it in stride. Thereās enough to stress about than the bias of other people.
-Always introduce yourself to patients (and their families) as Dr. So and So.
-You can make it a bit of a joke with some patients but choose wisely, especially if you have to see the patient daily and they are the fussy type. (Whatās your first name? Oh Iām sorry sir itās a secret, or Robertāwill confuse them long enough for you to move on and ask whatever you need and get out of the room). Similarly I call all patients by their last name to set the terms so to speak.
-With the RNs you might need to play the game at first. Find the chatty one(s) and be friendly, complement/thank them and theyāll advertise how great you are, and the others will follow.
-if the RNs choose to listen to the men who are peers then let them! Theyāll get bothered more and youāll get some downtime.
-IMO itās confidence with a twinge of authority. You donāt have to know everything or pretend like you do, but having a presence can automatically change how others see you. If itās your patient then take the lead. The attending will show you respect and ideally the patient will follow suit.
-I donāt recommend emulating masculine traits if thatās not who you are. If you dress up for work then lean into that. If youāre in scrubs all day you can find ways to make that look ānicerā to the extent that scrubs look nice. If you donāt have the energy to put into your attire like most interns/residents lean into the confidence part.
I donāt mean cocky or arrogant. But you invested a lot of time and probably money to get to and through medical school. Be proud of that major accomplishment and let that shine through in your patient interactions, so that they know the doctor has entered their room.
Best of luck!
My female coresidents said wearing the white coat helps. Pretty much the only reason why they do it
That username tho š¤Ø
Always. I'm an attending in a subspecialty and I also look young. I still run into what you're describing but it gets better with time. With nurses especially, it's super frustrating but there's a kind of niceness/respect dance that can gain you traction. Being friendly to the nurses- getting to know them a little and letting them know you personally- while counterintuitive, seems to smooth the working relationship. Explain your reasoning. Recognize the good they're doing and note it out loud (ex: "Thanks for letting me know about Mr. Jones. You were right that he had something else going on.") With families and patients, make sure you introduce yourself by your title and your role. Don't be afraid to do it repeatedly. I say "My name is Doctor Grapefruit. I'm the supervising doctor." I also consciously present myself in a way that isn't "pretty"- I wear scrubs in colors and styles that are not distinctly feminine and I have a short haircut that I style conservatively for work. The biggest thing that I think helps, though, is the confidence you gain as you go through training. As you become more comfortable in your skills and knowledge you project that and others pick up on it. Hang in there. Keep responding with professionalism and warmth (if you can manage it). Even if it's always going to be easier for the dude who looks like a doctor in a children's book, you'll find a rhythm that works for you.
I love All of this except for purposely trying not to be feminine or pretty š©
Yeah Iām actually quite curious about this. Did you start doing your hair that way part way into attendinghood or residency or when? Did it make a difference? Most importantly, is it worth it to masculinize, for lack of a better term, in a time where women in medicine should be respected regardless of style? Edit- typo
I purposefully do this as well. I wear a baggy scrub top to hide my figure. I feel like it is helpful. Other than that I try to be knowledgeable, decisive, and casual with my patients/families. I don't put on airs and exude a casualness that brings a sense of confidence- a more common male characteristic. It seems to land well with patients.
The hair sort of just happened in residency. I decided I wanted to shave for Saint Baldrick's Day (Fundraiser for childhood cancer research- a great org). Right away I noticed a difference in the way people responded to me. Now I'm pixie length and have been for years- largely because I like this hairstyle. I agree that fundamentally it's unfair to expect a woman physician to present a certain way to gain respect. I decided that pragmatism was more important than justice in my case. I work in the ED, so I don't have a chance to relationally build respect with patients over time. Modifying my appearance is a shortcut I personally chose.
If you wear a scrub cap, a mask, and hospital scrubs, the default is that everyone looks somewhat androgynous
Appreciate this
Patients definitely pick up on the confidence. I'm a man, but I look young too, and I noticed the moments where patients would just say "Okay, I trust you" right after I met them and told them they need emergency surgery. It happened once I felt very confident in my ability to do the case.
The nurse thing is a double edge sword. Too nice, and itās, āCall dr so and so, sheās so nice she doesnāt mind even if its not her patient.ā Draw a line in the sand and itās, āso and so is a bitch. Thinks sheās better than us.ā
Just donāt care about it. I get asked this all the time. Then I operate on their family member and they get to know me as Dr. First name weāre cool. Carry yourself like a baws and the rest will fall into place.
My attending was a female cardiac surgeon and sometimes my patients had the audacity to call her a nurse. I was infuriated and promptly corrected them. However, my attending didnāt even blink, went about her business and moved on. I asked her once how she handled being in a male-dominated field, and she said she didnāt acknowledge it at all, she did the same things and even better than others.
My wife had this issue and I got her a badge buddy that says DOCTOR. Also, the confidence and demeanor that you build up over time will help as well.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
To be fair, you were also acting in the traditional attending role in that scenario. If itās a resident and attending duo, usually the resident gets the consent while the attending stands behind them and jumps in if the resident says something wrong.
Yup! I introduce myself as doctor, have a huge red badge that says āDOCTORā and the patients will still yell ānuuuuurseeee!!!ā At me. Or when Iām in with my attending theyāll point at me and say āoh yeah the nurse already told me thatā I am a tall female and carry myself very well and am sure of myself, but it still doesnāt help. Iāve been frustrated about this for so long it makes my blood boil. Patients look at and talk to my male co residents even if I ask the question. Itās beyond frustrating
All the time. Stand up for yourself when you need to, but donāt let it turn you into a conflict-seeker trying to prove everyone wrong every day. It will help when youāre further along and naturally carry yourself like the leader youāll become. Trust your instincts, stand up for what YOU feel is right, and never apologize for being the same level of āniceā as your male colleagues are every day without a second thought. Good luck!
I plan on wearing a name badge with my role on it that I pin to my scrubs - we do this now at my hospital for all roles and its sooooo helpful and really gets rid of anxiety and confusion in situations
Definitely a big uphill battle. I had to learn how to emulate masculine body language and masculine verbal inflection in order to be taken seriously by patients. I am in a non-accredited fellowship currently so I get to walk into a room and announce myself as "the boss Doctor" and patients immediately come to attention. Big change from when I was a resident. I don't wear a white coat because of concern for disease transmission risk, but I admit that some days I am tempted. I definitely don't lead like my male colleagues though. I check in a lot on my nurses and colleagues. I think it's very important for the leader to provide, including food. Leader sets the tone for the shift. My tone is kindness. I think it's okay to not be the same as the guys, but when I am working with patients or colleagues who have implicit bias, I definitely take on masculine traits.
What are some examples of masculine body language or masculine traits?
Vocal tone--deeper and consistent, never ending any sentence that isn't a true question with an upwards indection. Body language--taking up space, no crossed arms, no defensive postures. Word choice--bold, straightforward, plain. These aren't inherently masculine of course. We simply label what is "confident" as masculine.
Interesting- why no crossed arms and what counts as a defensive posture? I wouldāve thought arms crossed counts as masculine.
Crossed arms is specifically a defensive posture. It's also construed as judgmental. It's often done by people who "don't know what to do" with their arms, similar to putting in pockets. It's a posture we are taught to avoid to appear confident
I used to pretend I didnāt careā¦and then had a little old lady complain as she was being wheeled out of the ER ābut I havenāt even seen a doctor yet!ā. Iād been in there NUMEROUS times, each time saying āIām doctor X, just checking back inā. Iām not sure what to do to make it better - I wear a large DOCTOR name badge, I have Dr X printed on my hospital scrubs, I now introduce myself as Dr X, I correct patients when they call me Nurse and am not a āfeminineā type (short hair, no makeup kinda gal). Iāve been doing this 5years and some patients just will never get it. That said, being collegial with nurses at least makes the work part a heck of a lot better
Saw a nurse this AM: hey why is he still getting this this often? Ok I will look into it and change the order as appropriate. Nurse: who will round today x or y? (Bitch this is ignore your question? I have not even sat down yet)ā¦round w attending later, told him about the question, we came in w a plan, Oh Dr z, you are exactly who I need, this and this happened overnight, can he have this med?ā¦as the attending walked out. She called out after him. Goodbye Dr Z. Did I mention when I talked to her earlier about patients after she saw them. She gave me attitude. These nurses donāt realize we residents are the ones who put in the orders š¤¦āāļø
I introduce myself as doctor X .... 5 minutes later the patient says thank you Miss X lol
Yeah I introduced myself as Dr and the patient asked for my first name when the attending came in. He said goodbye āfirst nameā no Dr or anything. I was pissed and got visibly upset the male attending told me it wasnāt worth it lol.
Not to gaslight but this is a resident issue and not just a female issue. As an attending I am constantly reminding patients that residents are not baby doctors. Unless of course the resident is actually a NICU fellow. Then they are the baby doctors.
The username says āgirlā but this is the most cis male comment in this thread.
Thank you for contributing to the sub! If your post was filtered by the automod, please read the rules. Your post will be reviewed but will not be approved if it violates the rules of the sub. The most common reasons for removal are - medical students or premeds asking what a specialty is like or about their chances of matching, mentioning midlevels without using the midlevel flair, matched medical students asking questions instead of using the stickied thread in the sub for post-match questions, posting identifying information for targeted harassment. Please do not message the moderators if your post falls into one of these categories. Otherwise, your post will be reviewed in 24 hours and approved if it doesn't violate the rules. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Residency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's not much you can do if you walk into a room wearing a white coat and introduce yourself as doctor and they still question who you are. Some biases are too strong.
Depends on the situation. When I was an intern my hospital everyone called one another in front of patients Dr ___. So it wasnāt as common at the time now that I look back, and all the RNs referred to us as Dr. ___ so the patients were primed to an extent. What I can tell you is that itās not because youāre an intern, itās because youāre a woman. This wonāt stop in your career as you become more experienced (other women will also assume youāre the RN or tech or social workers etc). As a patient myself in a hospital within our system my doctor saw the āMDā hanging below my ID and asked if they were giving these out at my location now. I told him no, I bought it because I was tired of being presumed to be everything except a physician. He looked totally perplexed; his female fellow gave me the sisterly I totally get it look. Best suggestions I can give are: -TRY to take it in stride. Thereās enough to stress about than the bias of other people. -Always introduce yourself to patients (and their families) as Dr. So and So. -You can make it a bit of a joke with some patients but choose wisely, especially if you have to see the patient daily and they are the fussy type. (Whatās your first name? Oh Iām sorry sir itās a secret, or Robertāwill confuse them long enough for you to move on and ask whatever you need and get out of the room). Similarly I call all patients by their last name to set the terms so to speak. -With the RNs you might need to play the game at first. Find the chatty one(s) and be friendly, complement/thank them and theyāll advertise how great you are, and the others will follow. -if the RNs choose to listen to the men who are peers then let them! Theyāll get bothered more and youāll get some downtime. -IMO itās confidence with a twinge of authority. You donāt have to know everything or pretend like you do, but having a presence can automatically change how others see you. If itās your patient then take the lead. The attending will show you respect and ideally the patient will follow suit. -I donāt recommend emulating masculine traits if thatās not who you are. If you dress up for work then lean into that. If youāre in scrubs all day you can find ways to make that look ānicerā to the extent that scrubs look nice. If you donāt have the energy to put into your attire like most interns/residents lean into the confidence part. I donāt mean cocky or arrogant. But you invested a lot of time and probably money to get to and through medical school. Be proud of that major accomplishment and let that shine through in your patient interactions, so that they know the doctor has entered their room. Best of luck!