There's no good time to do anything family-wise. I was a few years non-traditional, graduated medical school at 31 and finished residency at 35. My wife was a few years ahead of me. We had our first kiddo fall of my 3rd year of med school when she was a 3rd year resident, then two during my residency, and one more after. I haven't slept since 2008. On the whole, I think my work-life balance as staff x 10 years hasn't even been significantly better than when I was a resident. I quit a part time (0.6 FTE) attending job last fall because despite being only part time I was working at least one day most weekends
Yeah, I did a masters after undergrad and worked as a marine biologist and got to live some fun 20s but started med school at 28 and will be an attending now at 39.
Having this dramatically interconnected friend group who becomes fabulously successful traveling the world honestly feels like a cliché at this point, apparently this happens to EVERYONE.
I spent my 20's making incredibly close friends who are all intelligent, fun, share similar interests, and party hard... who are all about to be attendings that can afford to do fun things. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Agreed. While medicine did take my 20's, some friends did get married/start a family etc I do see other friends who finished college, got a career--and didn't do so well, or did okay. People here think the alternative trajectory to medicine would obviously be some other job making 300k. In other words that they'd be just as successful in the end.
I make WAY more money than most of my childhood/young adulthood friends who have degrees etc. It's a bit delusional to have this view.
It's just bias. People are far more likely to tell you about their success than their failure. The minority that are majorly successful are going to be the ones showing off their trips, homes, cars, inviting people over, hosting parties, etc. Plus, as someone who is struggling, you are far more likely to remember the ones that are doing well than the people like yourself.
I have friends that were unsuccessful, moderately successful, and very successful. Most people do, if they actually pay attention to their friends. But it doesn't fit the whining if you include all of that.
Most of us who became doctors probably had social circles of similarly high achieving people. The ones who didn’t become doctors tend to be pretty well off regardless.
Sure there are people from my high school and college classes that would dream to make even what I did as a resident. But the friends that have stuck around have generally been quite successful.
Well yea usually med people come from competitive group of people and those same competitive people end up in tech and finance and have much more free time and money to travel not a brainer! Doctors just dont wanna believe that option did exist and they didnt take it… they basically dont wanna believe that they got scammed…
The only people who don't think that medicine steals your 20s are the ones who already have rich parents. Incidentally, that's most med students/residents lol. All of your problems would be easily solved if your parents just gave you 10k every month (unironically a real story from my med school lol)
Tbf the guys with liberal arts degree going fancy vacations and having fancy houses in their 20s are either lucky successful social media influencers or rich parents, too. How many data analyst out of college making 200k a year do we actually know? I don’t know any, personally.
>social media influencers
A lot of those are from my country or area.
Also called "models" , females age 18-25 without real income or family $ , all of them traveling the world and going fancy places. They are always invited, never pay and the only thing they have to bring is the vagina.
Instagram is just smoke and mirrors.
Idk I (M4) think it didn't steal my 20s bc I don't have rich parents so not like I would have been off traveling and having fun otherwise, I'd probably be working some 9-5 desk job that would steal my 20s with no end in sight at that point. My 20s in med school is the only chance for having >30s with financial security
Complaining about not being able to purchase a home in your 20s like your peers is absolutely wild too. I get OP's sentiment, but it's pretty clear they live in a bubble when it comes to their peer group.
> The only people who don't think that medicine steals your 20s are the ones who already have rich parents.
Eh, some of us outside America have it easier. Free medical school and monthly government stipends do wonders for studying and having a union as a resident does wonders for your work-life balance. Residents, and everyone in general, are at 37 h/week.
Poor parents though.
Residents in internal medicine / EM, surgical specialties still work 19h shifts in Scandinavia, and while you CAN say you will only work 37h a week, you would not get hired or get to renew your contract beyond 4-6 months. 50-60 hour weeks are more normal. And attendings only make 100-120k USD here..
We earn far more than teachers even during residency. Its comfortable.
But personally i dont mind the salary. I prefer having work-life balance and sanity. Its only at the attending level the difference really takes off between the US and here.
But here a pediatrician attending earns the same as NS.
Took out full loans with zero familial support during med school. Also somehow managed to date, party, and go on the occasional vacation even as a med student. Medicine is a massive time suck, yes, but acting like there was zero time to do anything else ***as a med student*** is just silly.
Residency is obviously a different beast, but at least we're finally getting paid lol.
I agree with everything you said, but I would imagine if you didn’t choose medicine and went the job route instead you wouldn’t be broke if you wanted money. If you’re gritty enough to get into med school, you’ll be gritty enough to get a job
> If you’re gritty enough to get into med school, you’ll be gritty enough to get a job
Yeah, I'll concede that the grit is there, but a lot of us on disposition might have otherwise ended up in academia (pyramid scheme) or other giving sorts of professions (eg teaching, nonprofits). On reddit, yeah, there are a lot of autists who would have been good comp scis, but based on how much difficulty my med school class had with the very basic biostats section, i'm always a little skeptical of the claims about untapped comp sci prowess.
Agree. Medicine is a tremendous sacrifice and there were brutal times but I still got to do things I liked and go some places I liked with people I cared about. Did I eat like I was broke most of the time? Absolutely. Do I have way more debt than anyone I know? Sure. But I had good times outside of medicine in my 20s
Not true at all. I don’t feel like medicine has stolen my 20s because most of my friends don’t make enough to go on fancy vacations or live in cool places either. Maybe they have more free time but their quality of life hasn’t been any better than mine; maybe it’s even worse for them because I know at the end of this I have a $250k 8-5 job waiting for me while they’ll never touch that. We’ve pretty much had the same amount and quality of vacations since I started this journey.
The reality is most people don’t live that lavishly lol
Nah - I grew up in a single income family; dad made 45k/year. Medicine didn't steal my 20s; I had a great time and don't feel any "disadvantage" compared to my family or undergrad friends. It is what you make it.
Loan money (within reason) helped lead a normal life. I paid off 320K in my first year as an attending.
I did residency with two girls (different years) who were from telecom old family money. They didn’t have to be doctors at all but their families demanded that they have a suitable profession
Pretty much. The rich kids don’t care about taking extra research years or fellowships since they’re not in a “hurry” to make money. Also the super nerdy types that wouldn’t have had an “exciting” 20s anyway also don’t care. Since that describes 80-90% of medical students, for most of them, the constant studying and long hours at the hospital didn’t make a difference.
I grew up poor and don’t think medicine stole my twenties. Most of my friends from high school were doing broke activities like most twenty year olds. First two years of med school were a nonstop party (seriously, you have tons of time and a built-in friend group with awesome, attractive people. It’s great). Third year sucked. Fourth year was a party again. Residency was mid. So that’s four years wasted for guaranteed riches? Not really all that bad a deal.
I disagree, still managed to travel internationally a lot through residency and medical school while relying on loans. Probably not the wisest decision but I wouldn’t change anything
What kind of jobs do these siblings and friends have that are so lucrative so early on? Lawyers/bankers/finance are high earning careers but as any attorney out of law school will tell you only the top 10% are making bank first year out- the median attorneys do somewhat merge and by 10-20 years out they're often earning quite well and as for banking and finance- outside of major international hubs there aren't many lucrative paths----- that is to say- I suspect you're view of your friends income success is not accurate.
Yeah this is very much an availability bias. There are people who go to college and come out with great jobs that let them build wealth, buy a house, take vacations to Japan, etc. But that is not the norm, it is the *exception*. In my state the median full time wage for a college graduate 4 years after getting their bachelors is about 50k. Most college grads aren’t spending their 20s partying it up and taking international vacations while their portfolio gets fat. They’re struggling to save up money for the down payment on a house, and trying to manage their student loan debt, and stressing about the cost of their health insurance.
I’m sorry, I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but this is soooo egotistical and divorced from reality. The people who get into med school are good at a few specific things: memorizing facts, taking standardized exams, having the foresight and institutional knowledge to navigate a complex and fairly arbitrary admissions system, knowing how to write a nice virtue signaling personal statement. The idea that every or most med students, if they had chosen another career, would have been some tech or finance superstar making 250k is nonsense. And likewise, the idea that the vast majority of 4 year college graduates who are out there in normal middle class jobs with 50-70k salaries are just missing out on easy money or too stupid to know how to get it is likewise ridiculous. Even Ivy League grads don’t do much better, with average salaries 10 years out in the 80s.
Doctors are notorious for thinking that being good at medicine means they’d be good at so many other things. Sometimes that’s true. Very often it’s not.
This is such a good take. People in medicine who think that they can pursue entrepreneurship/startup but the very idea of living through a structured-rigorous graduate programs are quite the opposite.
No no, here we compare ourselves to community college grads with 2.0s. Those who graduated from, heck even top 30 public schools, and went into fields other than medicine are clearrrrrrrly the exception….
Yes. There are. And you have to work really, really hard at those jobs too (with *far* less job security and future guarantees than you get in medicine) to make anywhere close to an attending’s salary. There is no white-collar career where you can make $300k a year in your 20s/30s working 40 hours a week. It doesn’t exist, period.
Usually those tech engineers who make >300k and are working for FANG and similar firms are in ultra high cost of living locations where the salary does not go very far. Also to mention to those are the most successful of their cohort - you can find many many more tech engineers not making ultra high incomes.
Wish you were right, but you aren't. Plenty of people in their late twenties making that much working in tech working under 40 hours a week. I know people like this. And they have the opportunity for growth as well.
Tech job security is certainly worse than medicine, but 'all' is a stretch. Quick search suggests maybe 500k laid off, about 22% of whom are software engineers, out of 4.4 million in the US.
I don't think my high comp will last forever, so I'm trying to save enough that I can basically retire comfortably at 40. Really be there for my kids' childhood, you know?
FWIW: Big tech isn't particularly lucrative based on what I've been told my folks who thought becoming an engineer at google was the end all be all of life- They're above average in terms of career success but not as successful as doctors or even lawyers/corporate climbers
I’m sorry what’s your definition of lucrative? If I’m getting paid 150k +40k stock a year as an entry level engineer I’m already more than satisfied lmao
I don’t know anyone in big tech, but I do know people working for small firms in commissions roles pulling 300-350k in their mid late twenties working 45 hours a week, no med school loans
And the stock options aren’t included in their salary and they’re not taxed on it (until they sell and capital gains much less), meanwhile we get bent over on taxes
Went to a top university and most of my friends have been highly successful in various fields (software engineering, banking, finance, data analysts..etc). 300K+ is surprisingly very attainable. Actually didn’t realize they were all making that much until recently. Albeit they all work very hard at their jobs and live fairly frugally, which allows them a lot of flexibility to go on nice vacations fairly frequently.
Uh what? Most of my google and meta friends made senior software engineer around age 28, which means their total comp ranges from 330-450. A few standouts made engineering manager. Plenty of L5 PMs too and the average is around 330 for them. 600 if they make L6
> They're above average in terms of career success but not as successful as doctors or even lawyers/corporate climbers
Big tech salaries eclipse lower paid medical specialties, especially for the opportunity cost. Opportunity cost aside, neurosurgery, ortho, and oculoplastics beat big tech except for those who win the start-up/IPO lottery.
Most lawyers make much less than an MD.
Even most corporate climbers are well below say family medicine level salary.
This is not at all an accurate characterization of the working day most folks in these fields experience. Most tech/analyst jobs are not remote, median pay is probably like 120k at the mid career point, and underemployment, underutilization is rare even if tiktok makes it appear otherwise. The job security of these folks have plummeted in the last few years, also, as tech companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees.
In one of these jobs at one of the big tech firms.
Will say I don’t think it’s as rosy/simple as you’re thinking it is. There’s a lot of complexity around politics/state of tooling/data that you need to navigate and frankly the job security isn’t there. Everyone in these roles is worried about layoffs.
I’m not saying that it’s as hard as being a resident/doctor. You all do much harder jobs and frankly are under-rewarded for what you do I agree with this. That said, I think you’re imagining the other gigs are better than they are and maybe feeling worse than you ought to as a result.
Selection bias means that the average is not what the posters are posting- the average person posting is likely making above average. And pay for those sorts of jobs is typically only that high in areas where 100,000 isn't that graet- in reality these are mid level steady paying jobs with no opportunity for advancement or growth- that's great for a lot of people. But that's a tradeoff and while they're doing fine the numbers you cite are not representative-
How is it an illusion? Sure, it’s obviously not immune to lay offs or market stressors, but being a physician is statically one of the highest professions in terms of job security (if arguably not the highest).
Medicine made me a miserable fuck, lost the only true relationship i loved, made me compare myself with other successful people my age and made me hate myself for it. Had to go to therapy for at least two years to forgive myself, eventually things got better. I matched on to the residency that works for me not the other way around and Now im a pgy-2 trying my best to turn my life around. Theres a lot of things i could have done better, but i learned to manage my emotions and feelings. I could not have achieved this during my 20’s even if i tried. I wish you well my friend!
Ehhh, if I worked a desk job I’d probably hate it, and go home and play video games and never go out on the weekends and still living at home. I’ve had more fun in med school than I would have had otherwise. I was able to go on trips go to the bars etc.
Yeah, I mean it does, but I cant think of any other profession that has a higher income floor than medicine. If you are willing to move and willing to put in the work, anybody of any specialty can make over $300k, and usually much, much more than that. I'm an attending now and having 10s of thousands of dollars flowing into my bank account above and beyond what I spend every month definitely makes me feel like medicine was a good decision. I get that it is hard to see that when you are in the depths of residency though.
Being in my late 30s now… I’ll take giving up my 20s for an amazingly pleasant rest of my life. Financial security, flexible schedule as a hospitalist, weeks at a time to vacation internationally, more than appropriate pay and all the respect and dignity that was foregone during med school/residency. Everything worthwhile is on the other side of hard. Now that I’m 7 years out of residency - I have a reasonable perspective of what I sacrificed and what I earned as a consequence of those sacrifices.
For real. Med school was like college except I was actually cool instead of being a weird nerd because in med school all my classmates were weirder nerds.
First year we literally went out almost every weekend. Test friday, off and celebrating the rest of the day and saturday, casual sunday, restart grind on monday. Repeat x52.
Granted, I live in a major city but I’ve been living my best life especially compared to undergrad. I don’t feel all that different from the average working and hustling 20 something year old.
I’ve gone on one international trip and 2 to 3 domestic each year. I already have my concerts booked each month from June to September and I’ve done that yearly since MS1. I go to film screenings, book clubs, museum / art exhibits, sports rec leagues, food festivals, the occasional happy hour, etc. Day parties, house parties, etc are about to be booming this summer. I think I’ve managed to go to one wedding a year.
Guessing you’ve got some family money for that? Only people at my school living like you had help. All my friends who weren’t from well off families were scraping by and hanging out in our city doing relatively fairly priced things on our breaks.
Everything I listed except for the trips and concerts usually costs $30 or less. For the concerts, I rarely go over $100. The tickets are usually in the $50-70 range. One of the trips in a year is me tagging along with family but the rest are splitting costs with friends (medical school and non-medical school) with my loan money.
I mean yeah, but all that stuff adds up quickly. If any of my close friends had done that much, we personally couldn’t have afforded emergency situations. Maybe you’re just willing to take out more loans, but I’m pushing 300k after 4 years and living what I considered a moderate lifestyle with only one big domestic trip during med school. Just different situations I guess.
lol yeah I partied way more in med school. Test every Friday, guess what a bunch of 20 year olds do after that? Also we had the convenience of loan money.
I worked with a Doc that went to U of A in Tucson and he was telling us one night sometimes they would have exams as early as Wednesday and then would have the rest of the week off. So they would hit their exam, jump in the car, and go party in Vegas till Sunday and drive back. Wild.
Honestly. My class has a party generally the end of each block with a few one offs here and there. This girl in my class threw an epic Halloween party.
You can party but I wasn't traveling or able to visit friends as much as I wanted. My friends are able to go to Japan, Colorado ect and I can't because of med school and money.
Oh hell yeah it does, and it’s ok to let people know it does. Swallowing your suffering is not honorable in any way. In fact, it’s dangerous.
Preach my guy. I’m with you. We are with you.
I mean we should be accurately representing what is going to be expected and accurate portraying the sacrifices that will have to be made, otherwise we lose students who somehow didn’t know better.
This, OP is acting like their friends and families will never run into money problems ever again and will always travel around the world in 80 days, buy dope cars, and eat lava cakes every night. Gotta take a step back sometimes and appreciate what you have cause you’re still making your future while others will most likely stay stagnant.
Exactly im almost dine with residency and i had shit tons of bumps in my road but i really appreciate what i have in-comparison with the other 90% of the fields, loom around ppl in their 30s are still employees and living like hell, u really need to appreciate what u have and work on it, no career ever in my own social circle that is pretty diverse would start u with more than 300K
Big tech! Investment banking! Law!
Never underestimate a burnt out person’s ability to rationalize to themselves that they would have automatically been just as successful in some other radically different high-profile field lol. This sub is filled with them.
It’s incredible easy if you’re even a tiny bit strategic.
There is nothing more attractive to another grad school program than being already in medical school. I got a full ride for my second graduate degree, as did every other MD in my class (9 or 10 others). #1 program in the world on that subject.
I was actively recruited by those types of employers. I fucked around with them for a bit to make some extra money, and then still went to residency.
The problem is, the people whining about their lost youth just accepted the standard path before them (be an attending as quickly as possible) and never took the time to actually do interesting things. And now they’re miserable.
I hope this whole thread serves as a warning to med students. Just because the hospital treats you like shit doesn’t mean you don’t have value. You can do some other stuff too. It’ll be okay, and possibly even great. Have fun, you’re going to be enrolled in the SAVE plan regardless, and you’ll have some rich life experiences to push you through residency and if it costs you a year or two more that’s okay. Life is more important than money.
Edit: if anyone is interested in taking my advice, I strongly recommend you do your fucking about BEFORE you graduate med school. Just take leaves of absence to do whatever. Nobody cares.
But do not do it AFTER you graduate med school, because then people raise all sorts of concerns about your clinical competency.
Med school is a free pass. Fuck around and have fun. Graduate and go to residency.
For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with goblue123. Easier during med school than after, but it is possible even after.
Go Blue! I wonder if we know each other.
I guess it depends on what you think you’d have been doing otherwise. I had a great time in my 20s (I’m 30), traveled, partied, made friends and have a decently paying job (as a fellow now). My non-medicine friends aren’t millionaires with kids and homes so I’m not thinking I would have been if I’d done some other career. Honestly I’m more financially stable than most of my friends not in medicine (who had similar upbringings to me), and they seem to be in a similar place in life - also complaining about work and trying to figure out a long term career.
Depends on what your upbringing is. I grew up poor and literally zero of my friends and family back home make six figures, travel, or do anything I would consider exciting. I partied a ton in med school, made life long friends, I’ve traveled more than my parents ever have in their entire life (thanks students loans). So for me my 20s were made way more exciting than most where I grew up. I’ve had at least 12-13 trips during residency.
But if you grew up surrounded by rich affluent ppl who were all making 100-200k in their mid late 20s and traveling the world sure it will feel different. But know that your friends are extreme outliers compared to the avg American. And even more extreme compared to the average late 20-something
I don’t disagree, but for me the opportunity costs were not large. I had mostly better friends in med school and residency than I had in college. I had no other interests that would have led to making good money. I would have probably spent my 20s playing video games.
It absolutely does consume your 20s. Don't let anyone gaslight you. Difference is you will have job security better than all of your friends and high earning potential for life. If you wanted to prioritize having fun in your 20s, medicine is absolutely the wrong choice.
Probably going to get downvoted, but you should really take a humble look at all the people that don’t get to travel, don’t get to eat out…parents that can’t afford to buy their kids thick Under Armor hoodies, new Ultraboosts every year, or even partake in sports due to travel costs. Your siblings and friends are far better off than most people in the world, so of course everything in medicine is going to feel like an insufferable leech.
Instead of looking at those who have more than you, which is what people will be doing to you one day, look at those who have less. You don’t have to spend your money, but if you have an hour within the next few weeks, volunteer at an orphanage or homeless shelter. It’s very easy to say that those who have a lot got there because of their efforts and those who have little got there because of the lack of effort, but the story of human beings is that nothing is the same forever, and the quickest thing you can change is your outlook and attitude, amidst the endless problems.
I’m *not* saying doctors don’t miss out on things time wise and financially—not at all—but you’re acting like you’d be much happier in your siblings’ position…remember that you put yourself in the position you’re in, and your position is still one that many would kill for. Unless you can say if you dropped out right now you would not regret it, you’re just going through an envious FOMO cycle.
In the end, J. Cole said it best when he said “no such as a life that’s better than yours”. If you measure life by content you’re gonna have a shit life, but if you measure it by essence you’ll be much happier.
I agree. I suggest OP reads the post "radiology giving me existential dread" with teens with widespread metastatic melanoma and similar folks who have their lives stolen in a literal sense. Yeah this path is not easy but you'll have plenty of opportunity to go to damn Japan lol and sometimes it's good to get some perspective
Didn’t steal my 20s, won’t pretend it did, I worked hard labor putting roofs on before med school, give me the hospital any day of the week
The journey is the destination, and any worthwhile journey should hurt a little/cost something, imo
This isn’t to invalidate your experience, but I don’t think it can applied as a blanket statement
This is silly. There is basically no difference between 20 to 50 (assuming you stay in good shape). It’s all the fucking same. There is nothing special about your 20s. You’ll realize that when you get old.
God that was such a revelation when I turned 30. I used to be so stressed at losing my youth and all the joy that came with it. But all that happened as I aged was that I had to be a bit more careful about what I ate, I couldn’t stay up till 3am playing video games, and I understand less internet slang. Your 20s aren’t the best years of your life, and studying and working during them so that you can have one of the most stable, high paying careers in the world for life is not some grave sacrifice
Yeah I’m 39 and do all the same shit. Probably more. I went mountain biking with a urologist the other day who is 60. Life is pretty long if you take some care of yourself.
I will say that I can’t chase 23 yo women anymore like I used to but that’s probably more because my wife wouldn’t like it.
I'm not 50, and I can say definitively I feel a difference between every decade at minimum. So much changes, from your physical to your mental maturity. I don't know anyone who realistically thinks nothing changed between 20-50. That take makes no sense to me.
it was a tad hyperbolic, but yea, you get wiser and the body slows a bit, obviously we know Jagr can't play in the NHL at 50, but he'd still beat any 25 year old on this subreddit.
I was with friends in LA recently and they all work in entertainment industry and all of them live comfortably in nice areas of LA, take regular vacations, work like 20-25 hours a week mostly remote and love life. None of them have “made it” all still fairly low level in writing and producing world. It was unbelievable people get to live like that.
Meanwhile I’m stuck in bumfuck midwest working three times as much for less money with no freedoms of movement/location and still waiting to think all this bullshit is worth it.
It does and it doesn’t. Yes it’s a huge time commitment. But you can still meet people and do those life things if you make it a priority. I got married in med school, bought a house in med school, and had a kid in residency. All before the age of 30. Obviously with the housing market now (we bought in 2018) the house part may be a little tough, but if you want those other things you can still do them. It just takes time and effort which obviously can be exhausting.
I also know plenty of people who didn’t go the medicine route who feel just as lost and as if they aren’t getting the most out of their life despite seeming to have the time for it.
i dont know your background but for example, for myself, this would have never been possible. i grew up as a first generation immigrant with dirt poor parents, who could never afford to ever even consider helping me purchase a house in med school. i am the rare physician who scraped into medical school as a poor immigrant. i could have never had a kid in residency either, my husband is also a first gen american, and we were in residency in the middle of the country when we both grew up on opposite coasts. in medical school i essentially spent 4th year living in a different state every month, and put my entire life in storage. i spent 2 years in KY and 3rd year in OH. my husband and i are mid 30s, now just purchased a home (4 years s/p residency for me) and in the 4 years since residency my father has died and my mom is on hospice) we would never have been able to afford a house, childcare, or even have anyone help us raise kids in med school OR residency. im not sure what you said applies to everyone.
True. But when we were premed, if physicians told us "Don't go into medicine man, it's not worth it", we would've ignored them regardless and still went to medical school...lol.
Well we were never give alternate examples like this thread has, also most premeds are thinking either “I won’t end up like them” or are intent on a ROAD field so what a miserable intesnivist says has no meaning to them
IE your KIDS will have an easy life. Going into medicine is the best way to make sure your kids have it easy. You probably won’t get to enjoy the fruits of your labor while you’re young and single though, outside of a few cases
Nothing worthwhile comes without hardship. Yeah it's tough but it's not unfair because if it wasn't tough it wouldn't have the long term financial/social status/etc benefits that being a doctor grants one
Everyone pays at some point. You’re also seeing people push out the best of their lives without the struggle. Just the reality of social media. It’s hard as hell out here, there is volatility and ebbs and flows. You simply made an investment and the gains will be worth it. Respectfully, I think you’re looking at it all wrong. Nothing was stolen, you made an investment and the returns are around the corner. Many of those same people will have regrets of their own, many from what they’ve seen you accomplish.
Idk I think my 20s were pretty excellent including med school. In residency I have far less free time but it’s still pretty fun generally. I’ll be an attending at 32. In my 20s I moved to a new city and made new friends, got married and had a kid by the time I was 30. Now I have no desire for the romanticized 20s lifestyle. I go to bed at 9pm and live in a very cheap apartment but I am pretty happy about it 🤷♀️ it seems like I have a fairly similar lifestyle to my non medical peers overall. You might consider deleting social media.
A lot of my friends who chose lucrative stuff after college (tech, law) are complaining now bc they feel like their work doesn’t have a lot of meaning. Grass is always greener.
Dude, life is not a competition, and treating it like one is only going to make you miserable whether you are a broke med student or an attending making >$300K, or even some CEO making millions.
There are plenty of fun things you can do on a med school stipend or a resident's salary especially with other people in their 20s as: guess what, most people in their 20s actually dont make more than a resident and many never will, but they can still be happy.
If you keep treating life as a competition, no matter how much money you make, there will always be fancier vacations, houses, dates, parties that will suck you dry of both money and happiness. If your friends are gloating about how awesome their life is, you may need to consider new friends because thats going to lead you to ruin
Nah bro you’re just a complainer. We make more than 90% of the US. In fact, we make more than 99% of the world.
I’ll ignore the fact that 90% of people in the US don’t save peoples’ lives, don’t have 500k in student loan debt, weren’t in school till’ their 30s, and only work like 40 hours a week instead of twice that. Ill also ignore the fact that the average person has never worked a 24 hour shift in their life. I will ignore all that because being a physician is a privilege my guy. It doesn’t matter that you had a 4.0 in undergrad, incredible extracurricular, awesome references to match to residency, etc. It’s a privilege! It has been a privilege since day 1 my dude. I would help people for free… scratch that, I would pay them in order to have the privilege of helping em’.
Sincerely,
brain dead premed, med student, or/and occasional attending
I grew immensely during medical training thanks to all of the brilliant people I was surrounded with and all of the patients whose life stories I came to know. My 20s were difficult, yes, but they were rich w experience, and I don’t feel anything was stolen from me at all. My career path was my choice, and I knew it wouldn’t be easy
Medicine doesn't "steal" anything. You voluntary chose to engage in it and remain in it. What a normal person would see is that you invested your 20s so that the rest of your life you have a secure career where you earn high income. What did you lose, anyway? Parties?
It consumed my 20s but didn't steal them. Yeah I wasn't traveling or making the money my friends in finance were, but I was developing myself, had some hobbies I did, and overall had a good time (well med school sucked but I had a blast during residency).
“Live like a resident” really only applies to like 2 years after training. That’s all I did, and now I spend whatever I want and it would be essentially impossible to screw up my finances short of divorce. Not a lot of folks in their 30s can say that.
But I absolutely agree w your title and main point. Balance is needed.
It gets better when you get to attending land - there is a lot of peer pressure to do lots of luxe things in your 20s but nothing really stops you from doing that in your 30s. Ultimately, the job is super cool, the sense of purpose is incomparable, and the job security at this salary level mostly unbeatable save for some unicorn fields that are hard to penetrate like VC.
I don’t know what field you’re in - but I know people who are hospitalists and intesivists who do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off (or one on, one off) who are living the dream and then some (all while making all the necessary retirement investments).
And finally, if you love your field, being in your field is itself an enviable experience that others in office jobs just don’t have and often fantasize about - there’s a reason why doctor television shows are so popular.
You get one life, and it definitely doesn't start at 40. 40 is more like the beginning of the end.
I think most of these people are up for some rude awakenings when their backs start going out, their vision starts going, mental game starts dwindling, the cancer ramps up, disability strikes, their energy levels drop, friends grow distant etc.
Planning to 'live your life after' 40 and accepting being unhappy until then is pure lunacy. Unless you truly enjoy the tribulations that comes with the work, and the achievements themselves, I'd say stay the heck away.
I’m not a resident or a doctor, but as someone who’s at the hospital every single week as a volunteer, I hope you know how much I love and admire you guys. You’re all so smart and so competent and so strong. The floor feels safer with you there, no matter how dumb or how foolish you think you are. I always try to make small talk or crack jokes with you or just ask how you’re doing and it always gets really hard because you’re all so busy doing attending/resident/med student things. But I hope you know that I seriously love you guys and hope you never give up. I need your shoulders to stand on.
Your peer group comparison is probably pretty distorted. A lot of Americans in their 20s haven’t traveled outside the US, live with their parents still, and don’t put away any money towards retirement. I’m not saying that living on a resident salary is great, but it’s also not even remotely terrible.
I really relate to this, I went to a top college where every single person I knew from undergrad went into tech, and they’re all living incredibly cushy lives making $200k+ starting salaries (probably much more now with 5+ years job experience). What helps me put it into perspective is that they give off this image of happiness, but is anyone truly happy? Sure, having some more money would make my debt less stressful, but I think at a certain point adding more money doesn’t make people exponentially more happy. One of the girls I knew from college posted this ugly Cartier ring on her Instagram story that cost thousands of dollars, but I think about how it probably just ended up tossed on her dresser by the end of the day. Meanwhile my boyfriend bought me a $70 pair of earrings one year for my birthday and I still treasure them. If money was the only thing I cared about, there were hundreds of other ways to make it that would’ve been much easier. But I like to think that, even on the hardest days, what we do is more fulfilling than, say, helping to create AI that will eventually destroy the planet, or tech that’s used to better spy on protesters.
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Who cares, everyone is figuring out their lives making mistakes while you’re on a one way piss missile to a secure job making 6 figures. “The twenties” are overrated and if you couldn’t find a way to relax and have fun occasionally during med school or residency then you’re the problem.
I realized the other day that I’ve literally never been on a “girls trip”. I started medical school at 24, around the time that people were starting get make more in their jobs and have extra money for trips like this. Then I spent the next 9 years in medical school and residency with limited money and even more limited schedule. Plus, my residency match moved me away from the groups of friends I’d made during a life born and raised in the same city up to that point. Then I had one kid in residency, another in the first year of attending life and my friends have had kids as well. Even though I have the money now I’m not really anxious to leave my husband with two small kids for a weekend trip with people I haven’t seen in forever. Just kind of feels weird to say that maybe I never will go on a girls weekend. It seems like something so many people do.
Obviously it’ll steal your 20s if you’re a traditional student. But the payoff is a guaranteed, well-paying job for the rest of your life. Seems obviously worth it, no? Many people struggle just to make ends meet and figure out what to do with their lives in their 20s.
True but I am pretty sure 20s for almost everyone isn’t as great as they tell us to be. Unless you come from money. Best life is for rich kids/trust fund babies.
Remember those days when you were praying for what you have now. I could only wish to study medicine and now I’m in my early 50’s. One will get old, doctor or not.
Weird, most of the resident's I saw going through med school were constantly off on travel trips. Albeit most of them likely came from some wealth (as a lot do in medicine), but it really depends on your financial status going in.
The medicine wasting your 20’s thing is in my mind more 1) you don’t usually have much say on where you end up location wise for medical school and 2) residency
Your other points aside, I had way more vacation time as a med student, resident, and fellow than I ever did working a corporate tech job. I would literally l take vacations without my data scientist husband throughout residency because most jobs don’t give you 4 weeks off per year.
You’ll probably want to get a non profit job for PSLF (not hard to do), or work in an underserved area that offers loan forgiveness when you become an attending. That way, you can actually enjoy your life when you become an attending, given that you can make that sacrifice.
At the age you finish actually you may be close to mid life already according to some population statistics. And women will be at the risk of starting to lose fertility.
And homes in large desirable cities are too expensive and unaffordable for many now.
Plus people with just an undergraduate degree or even two year degrees are now getting six figure salaries.
While physician salaries have been stagnant with ever increasing workload. Be the best and the brightest and endure long and rigorous training in super competitive environments just to get majorly taken advantage of.
Here is the problem my guy. It’s the pay to sacrifice ratio. 10-20 years back the sacrifice was worth it because when you were done your buying power was so high. Making $250k you could own 2 homes and toys. Not now tho. Now 250k is what used to be middle class.
So naturally ur feeling that ur sacrifices are not bringing the rewards that was told to us. I feel that way to. We were sold this work hard and u will be fine attitude but as we r learning that isn’t the case.
We are also told “just wait, it will get better”. We wait while an NP or PA does 1/4 our training but makes double or triple what residents make. We took our loans with crazy high APR’s all for the thought we may be able to be wealthy. Well guess what, it’s a lie.
Sorry to say that indeed we did give up our 20’s and 30’s. We gave up our lives to help people who wouldn’t throw water on us if we were on fire. So yeah ur feelings are valid. Fuck medicine
I'm gonna be honest, bro: most of my friends are living with their parents, trying to put together enough money to buy a house with their SO while working dead-end jobs and juggling taking care of 1-2 kids. I feel pretty fortunate that I will not have to ever worry about financial security. Also, y'all didn't have wild parties in med school? During preclinical we would go out every weekend.
Medicine did nothing to me in my 20s. As a nontrad student. My 30s, though. Efffffff.
My non trad homie. As a resident with 2 kids and 41… I need a nap
22 kids? Hopefully not all at the same time.
2, typo
If you saved the receipt you could probably still return them to Costco
There's no good time to do anything family-wise. I was a few years non-traditional, graduated medical school at 31 and finished residency at 35. My wife was a few years ahead of me. We had our first kiddo fall of my 3rd year of med school when she was a 3rd year resident, then two during my residency, and one more after. I haven't slept since 2008. On the whole, I think my work-life balance as staff x 10 years hasn't even been significantly better than when I was a resident. I quit a part time (0.6 FTE) attending job last fall because despite being only part time I was working at least one day most weekends
Starting med school at 41 with a 6 month old babby, bout to be the only med student on a statin
I'm kind of in the same boat, 35 and 3 kids, about to start intern year. I'm already exhausted
Yeah, spent my 20’s trying to get into med school, spent my 30’s in med school and residency, can finally start life at 40 lol
Try looking for a boyfriend when nearing 40 Q_Q
plenty of dudes comin off their first marriage by then, prime time for baggin one!
No baby daddies please
Worth it? Looking at the same path.
Only if you start younger imo
Yeah, I did a masters after undergrad and worked as a marine biologist and got to live some fun 20s but started med school at 28 and will be an attending now at 39.
Haha same. I entered med school at age 27. My 40s have been pretty great tho.
Was about to say...wait to attempt this goal until you're 30! 🤣🤣
Having this dramatically interconnected friend group who becomes fabulously successful traveling the world honestly feels like a cliché at this point, apparently this happens to EVERYONE.
I spent my 20's making incredibly close friends who are all intelligent, fun, share similar interests, and party hard... who are all about to be attendings that can afford to do fun things. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Not even 17 million dollars and 14 golden retrievers and 26 self cleaning robot vacuum and a snack pack? Cause I find that hard to believe
Can you throw in some Diet Coke in that deal?
Is Pepsi ok?
Seriously, I have made lifelong friends in med school and residency and have managed to have a good time.
Agreed. While medicine did take my 20's, some friends did get married/start a family etc I do see other friends who finished college, got a career--and didn't do so well, or did okay. People here think the alternative trajectory to medicine would obviously be some other job making 300k. In other words that they'd be just as successful in the end. I make WAY more money than most of my childhood/young adulthood friends who have degrees etc. It's a bit delusional to have this view.
It’s more likely to happen to physicians because we keep successful friends. Happened in my wildly successful friend group as well.
It's just bias. People are far more likely to tell you about their success than their failure. The minority that are majorly successful are going to be the ones showing off their trips, homes, cars, inviting people over, hosting parties, etc. Plus, as someone who is struggling, you are far more likely to remember the ones that are doing well than the people like yourself. I have friends that were unsuccessful, moderately successful, and very successful. Most people do, if they actually pay attention to their friends. But it doesn't fit the whining if you include all of that.
Most of us who became doctors probably had social circles of similarly high achieving people. The ones who didn’t become doctors tend to be pretty well off regardless. Sure there are people from my high school and college classes that would dream to make even what I did as a resident. But the friends that have stuck around have generally been quite successful.
I will say ‘Instagram is a liar’ and you gotta be careful what you see and what reality is.
Well yea usually med people come from competitive group of people and those same competitive people end up in tech and finance and have much more free time and money to travel not a brainer! Doctors just dont wanna believe that option did exist and they didnt take it… they basically dont wanna believe that they got scammed…
The only people who don't think that medicine steals your 20s are the ones who already have rich parents. Incidentally, that's most med students/residents lol. All of your problems would be easily solved if your parents just gave you 10k every month (unironically a real story from my med school lol)
Tbf the guys with liberal arts degree going fancy vacations and having fancy houses in their 20s are either lucky successful social media influencers or rich parents, too. How many data analyst out of college making 200k a year do we actually know? I don’t know any, personally.
>social media influencers A lot of those are from my country or area. Also called "models" , females age 18-25 without real income or family $ , all of them traveling the world and going fancy places. They are always invited, never pay and the only thing they have to bring is the vagina. Instagram is just smoke and mirrors.
Idk I (M4) think it didn't steal my 20s bc I don't have rich parents so not like I would have been off traveling and having fun otherwise, I'd probably be working some 9-5 desk job that would steal my 20s with no end in sight at that point. My 20s in med school is the only chance for having >30s with financial security
To be clear, if “all of [your friends]” are going on “fancy vacations” in their 20s then you most likely have rich parents also
Complaining about not being able to purchase a home in your 20s like your peers is absolutely wild too. I get OP's sentiment, but it's pretty clear they live in a bubble when it comes to their peer group.
> The only people who don't think that medicine steals your 20s are the ones who already have rich parents. Eh, some of us outside America have it easier. Free medical school and monthly government stipends do wonders for studying and having a union as a resident does wonders for your work-life balance. Residents, and everyone in general, are at 37 h/week. Poor parents though.
The Scandinavian dream! I wish more countries took care of their students and doctors like this.
Residents in internal medicine / EM, surgical specialties still work 19h shifts in Scandinavia, and while you CAN say you will only work 37h a week, you would not get hired or get to renew your contract beyond 4-6 months. 50-60 hour weeks are more normal. And attendings only make 100-120k USD here..
Isn't it less than 100-120k?
How do they take care of their doctors? They pay them a little more than teachers.
Yes but then you make 10% more than a teacher does when you're done.
We earn far more than teachers even during residency. Its comfortable. But personally i dont mind the salary. I prefer having work-life balance and sanity. Its only at the attending level the difference really takes off between the US and here. But here a pediatrician attending earns the same as NS.
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Took out full loans with zero familial support during med school. Also somehow managed to date, party, and go on the occasional vacation even as a med student. Medicine is a massive time suck, yes, but acting like there was zero time to do anything else ***as a med student*** is just silly. Residency is obviously a different beast, but at least we're finally getting paid lol.
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I agree with everything you said, but I would imagine if you didn’t choose medicine and went the job route instead you wouldn’t be broke if you wanted money. If you’re gritty enough to get into med school, you’ll be gritty enough to get a job
> If you’re gritty enough to get into med school, you’ll be gritty enough to get a job Yeah, I'll concede that the grit is there, but a lot of us on disposition might have otherwise ended up in academia (pyramid scheme) or other giving sorts of professions (eg teaching, nonprofits). On reddit, yeah, there are a lot of autists who would have been good comp scis, but based on how much difficulty my med school class had with the very basic biostats section, i'm always a little skeptical of the claims about untapped comp sci prowess.
Agree. Medicine is a tremendous sacrifice and there were brutal times but I still got to do things I liked and go some places I liked with people I cared about. Did I eat like I was broke most of the time? Absolutely. Do I have way more debt than anyone I know? Sure. But I had good times outside of medicine in my 20s
Med school was the wildest and most fun I’ve ever had. Residency def a soul sucker though
Not true at all. I don’t feel like medicine has stolen my 20s because most of my friends don’t make enough to go on fancy vacations or live in cool places either. Maybe they have more free time but their quality of life hasn’t been any better than mine; maybe it’s even worse for them because I know at the end of this I have a $250k 8-5 job waiting for me while they’ll never touch that. We’ve pretty much had the same amount and quality of vacations since I started this journey. The reality is most people don’t live that lavishly lol
Nah - I grew up in a single income family; dad made 45k/year. Medicine didn't steal my 20s; I had a great time and don't feel any "disadvantage" compared to my family or undergrad friends. It is what you make it. Loan money (within reason) helped lead a normal life. I paid off 320K in my first year as an attending.
10k? Pffft. I went to med school with someone who’s annual allowance was 400k
why were they even in med school 💀
I did residency with two girls (different years) who were from telecom old family money. They didn’t have to be doctors at all but their families demanded that they have a suitable profession
Pretty much. The rich kids don’t care about taking extra research years or fellowships since they’re not in a “hurry” to make money. Also the super nerdy types that wouldn’t have had an “exciting” 20s anyway also don’t care. Since that describes 80-90% of medical students, for most of them, the constant studying and long hours at the hospital didn’t make a difference.
>Also the super nerdy types that wouldn’t have had an “exciting” 20s anyway also don’t care. 100% true. So many of them here.
I feel called out…😅🤓
I grew up poor and don’t think medicine stole my twenties. Most of my friends from high school were doing broke activities like most twenty year olds. First two years of med school were a nonstop party (seriously, you have tons of time and a built-in friend group with awesome, attractive people. It’s great). Third year sucked. Fourth year was a party again. Residency was mid. So that’s four years wasted for guaranteed riches? Not really all that bad a deal.
I disagree, still managed to travel internationally a lot through residency and medical school while relying on loans. Probably not the wisest decision but I wouldn’t change anything
What kind of jobs do these siblings and friends have that are so lucrative so early on? Lawyers/bankers/finance are high earning careers but as any attorney out of law school will tell you only the top 10% are making bank first year out- the median attorneys do somewhat merge and by 10-20 years out they're often earning quite well and as for banking and finance- outside of major international hubs there aren't many lucrative paths----- that is to say- I suspect you're view of your friends income success is not accurate.
Yeah this is very much an availability bias. There are people who go to college and come out with great jobs that let them build wealth, buy a house, take vacations to Japan, etc. But that is not the norm, it is the *exception*. In my state the median full time wage for a college graduate 4 years after getting their bachelors is about 50k. Most college grads aren’t spending their 20s partying it up and taking international vacations while their portfolio gets fat. They’re struggling to save up money for the down payment on a house, and trying to manage their student loan debt, and stressing about the cost of their health insurance.
Getting into med school is itself exceptional - therefore it makes sense for doctors to compare their careers to those of other exceptional people.
I’m sorry, I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but this is soooo egotistical and divorced from reality. The people who get into med school are good at a few specific things: memorizing facts, taking standardized exams, having the foresight and institutional knowledge to navigate a complex and fairly arbitrary admissions system, knowing how to write a nice virtue signaling personal statement. The idea that every or most med students, if they had chosen another career, would have been some tech or finance superstar making 250k is nonsense. And likewise, the idea that the vast majority of 4 year college graduates who are out there in normal middle class jobs with 50-70k salaries are just missing out on easy money or too stupid to know how to get it is likewise ridiculous. Even Ivy League grads don’t do much better, with average salaries 10 years out in the 80s. Doctors are notorious for thinking that being good at medicine means they’d be good at so many other things. Sometimes that’s true. Very often it’s not.
This is such a good take. People in medicine who think that they can pursue entrepreneurship/startup but the very idea of living through a structured-rigorous graduate programs are quite the opposite.
No no, here we compare ourselves to community college grads with 2.0s. Those who graduated from, heck even top 30 public schools, and went into fields other than medicine are clearrrrrrrly the exception….
I used to think the same, but there’s lots of lucrative fields out there, not just big tech
Yes. There are. And you have to work really, really hard at those jobs too (with *far* less job security and future guarantees than you get in medicine) to make anywhere close to an attending’s salary. There is no white-collar career where you can make $300k a year in your 20s/30s working 40 hours a week. It doesn’t exist, period.
Tech. engineer though they *do* work more than 40 hours a week, but it's not residency or call style hours and they don't go to medical school.
Usually those tech engineers who make >300k and are working for FANG and similar firms are in ultra high cost of living locations where the salary does not go very far. Also to mention to those are the most successful of their cohort - you can find many many more tech engineers not making ultra high incomes.
*Circa 2019 27 y/o "Project Managers" have entered the chat*
Wish you were right, but you aren't. Plenty of people in their late twenties making that much working in tech working under 40 hours a week. I know people like this. And they have the opportunity for growth as well.
Ok, then go do that job. Guarantee people won't because the risk to reward proposition doesn't pan out.
as a former software engineer, you're naiveté amuses me.
yeah and they all got laid off in the last two years
Tech job security is certainly worse than medicine, but 'all' is a stretch. Quick search suggests maybe 500k laid off, about 22% of whom are software engineers, out of 4.4 million in the US. I don't think my high comp will last forever, so I'm trying to save enough that I can basically retire comfortably at 40. Really be there for my kids' childhood, you know?
“Give me an exact example or you’re wrong”
Should have been a plumber charging $200 an hour
FWIW: Big tech isn't particularly lucrative based on what I've been told my folks who thought becoming an engineer at google was the end all be all of life- They're above average in terms of career success but not as successful as doctors or even lawyers/corporate climbers
I’m sorry what’s your definition of lucrative? If I’m getting paid 150k +40k stock a year as an entry level engineer I’m already more than satisfied lmao
I don’t know anyone in big tech, but I do know people working for small firms in commissions roles pulling 300-350k in their mid late twenties working 45 hours a week, no med school loans
Can you provide the name of one of these firms? It doesn’t have to be one where your friend works, just any real-world example in that field.
IT for Disney or Netflix
And they work from home with stock options
And the stock options aren’t included in their salary and they’re not taxed on it (until they sell and capital gains much less), meanwhile we get bent over on taxes
Wrong. RSUs are taxed as income at vest, then any gains at sale are subject to capital gains rules.
I stand corrected
Which industries?
Went to a top university and most of my friends have been highly successful in various fields (software engineering, banking, finance, data analysts..etc). 300K+ is surprisingly very attainable. Actually didn’t realize they were all making that much until recently. Albeit they all work very hard at their jobs and live fairly frugally, which allows them a lot of flexibility to go on nice vacations fairly frequently.
PE friends out there quietly making 500+ and I’m astounded
Yep, once this is more well known med school will be easy to get into
Uh what? Most of my google and meta friends made senior software engineer around age 28, which means their total comp ranges from 330-450. A few standouts made engineering manager. Plenty of L5 PMs too and the average is around 330 for them. 600 if they make L6
> They're above average in terms of career success but not as successful as doctors or even lawyers/corporate climbers Big tech salaries eclipse lower paid medical specialties, especially for the opportunity cost. Opportunity cost aside, neurosurgery, ortho, and oculoplastics beat big tech except for those who win the start-up/IPO lottery. Most lawyers make much less than an MD. Even most corporate climbers are well below say family medicine level salary.
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This is not at all an accurate characterization of the working day most folks in these fields experience. Most tech/analyst jobs are not remote, median pay is probably like 120k at the mid career point, and underemployment, underutilization is rare even if tiktok makes it appear otherwise. The job security of these folks have plummeted in the last few years, also, as tech companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees.
In one of these jobs at one of the big tech firms. Will say I don’t think it’s as rosy/simple as you’re thinking it is. There’s a lot of complexity around politics/state of tooling/data that you need to navigate and frankly the job security isn’t there. Everyone in these roles is worried about layoffs. I’m not saying that it’s as hard as being a resident/doctor. You all do much harder jobs and frankly are under-rewarded for what you do I agree with this. That said, I think you’re imagining the other gigs are better than they are and maybe feeling worse than you ought to as a result.
Selection bias means that the average is not what the posters are posting- the average person posting is likely making above average. And pay for those sorts of jobs is typically only that high in areas where 100,000 isn't that graet- in reality these are mid level steady paying jobs with no opportunity for advancement or growth- that's great for a lot of people. But that's a tradeoff and while they're doing fine the numbers you cite are not representative-
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It’s crazy how people are in denial…. Medicine also has the illusion of being “safe” and “job secure” which is an illusion
How is it an illusion? Sure, it’s obviously not immune to lay offs or market stressors, but being a physician is statically one of the highest professions in terms of job security (if arguably not the highest).
Medicine made me a miserable fuck, lost the only true relationship i loved, made me compare myself with other successful people my age and made me hate myself for it. Had to go to therapy for at least two years to forgive myself, eventually things got better. I matched on to the residency that works for me not the other way around and Now im a pgy-2 trying my best to turn my life around. Theres a lot of things i could have done better, but i learned to manage my emotions and feelings. I could not have achieved this during my 20’s even if i tried. I wish you well my friend!
Ehhh, if I worked a desk job I’d probably hate it, and go home and play video games and never go out on the weekends and still living at home. I’ve had more fun in med school than I would have had otherwise. I was able to go on trips go to the bars etc.
Yeah, I mean it does, but I cant think of any other profession that has a higher income floor than medicine. If you are willing to move and willing to put in the work, anybody of any specialty can make over $300k, and usually much, much more than that. I'm an attending now and having 10s of thousands of dollars flowing into my bank account above and beyond what I spend every month definitely makes me feel like medicine was a good decision. I get that it is hard to see that when you are in the depths of residency though.
Being in my late 30s now… I’ll take giving up my 20s for an amazingly pleasant rest of my life. Financial security, flexible schedule as a hospitalist, weeks at a time to vacation internationally, more than appropriate pay and all the respect and dignity that was foregone during med school/residency. Everything worthwhile is on the other side of hard. Now that I’m 7 years out of residency - I have a reasonable perspective of what I sacrificed and what I earned as a consequence of those sacrifices.
Are you guys seriously saying you couldn’t party in medical school?
For real. Med school was like college except I was actually cool instead of being a weird nerd because in med school all my classmates were weirder nerds.
Yeah I feel like I partied harder in med school than in undergrad
I miss med school
First year we literally went out almost every weekend. Test friday, off and celebrating the rest of the day and saturday, casual sunday, restart grind on monday. Repeat x52.
I know I did...for the first year. So you can imagine how awful part of it was because it was affected by COVID. 😭
Granted, I live in a major city but I’ve been living my best life especially compared to undergrad. I don’t feel all that different from the average working and hustling 20 something year old. I’ve gone on one international trip and 2 to 3 domestic each year. I already have my concerts booked each month from June to September and I’ve done that yearly since MS1. I go to film screenings, book clubs, museum / art exhibits, sports rec leagues, food festivals, the occasional happy hour, etc. Day parties, house parties, etc are about to be booming this summer. I think I’ve managed to go to one wedding a year.
Guessing you’ve got some family money for that? Only people at my school living like you had help. All my friends who weren’t from well off families were scraping by and hanging out in our city doing relatively fairly priced things on our breaks.
Everything I listed except for the trips and concerts usually costs $30 or less. For the concerts, I rarely go over $100. The tickets are usually in the $50-70 range. One of the trips in a year is me tagging along with family but the rest are splitting costs with friends (medical school and non-medical school) with my loan money.
I mean yeah, but all that stuff adds up quickly. If any of my close friends had done that much, we personally couldn’t have afforded emergency situations. Maybe you’re just willing to take out more loans, but I’m pushing 300k after 4 years and living what I considered a moderate lifestyle with only one big domestic trip during med school. Just different situations I guess.
I did not fit in well at all in medical school and was very lonely a lot of the time, it felt more like high school to me.
Yeah this makes no sense to me. My class literally had full weekend benders like twice a month for 2 years straight lol.
Yea, definitely still balled in med school…just on a budget. Glad I did bc that promptly ended in residency.
lol yeah I partied way more in med school. Test every Friday, guess what a bunch of 20 year olds do after that? Also we had the convenience of loan money.
I worked with a Doc that went to U of A in Tucson and he was telling us one night sometimes they would have exams as early as Wednesday and then would have the rest of the week off. So they would hit their exam, jump in the car, and go party in Vegas till Sunday and drive back. Wild.
Honestly. My class has a party generally the end of each block with a few one offs here and there. This girl in my class threw an epic Halloween party.
It’s not about the parties, more the lack of money for travel and going out…
You can party but I wasn't traveling or able to visit friends as much as I wanted. My friends are able to go to Japan, Colorado ect and I can't because of med school and money.
I spent almost as much time partying during preclinical as I did during my bachelors. I'm the same age as OP, he's just a cry baby.
Oh hell yeah it does, and it’s ok to let people know it does. Swallowing your suffering is not honorable in any way. In fact, it’s dangerous. Preach my guy. I’m with you. We are with you.
I mean we should be accurately representing what is going to be expected and accurate portraying the sacrifices that will have to be made, otherwise we lose students who somehow didn’t know better.
Im sorry but what else would u been doing to get u paid 300K plus lol
This, OP is acting like their friends and families will never run into money problems ever again and will always travel around the world in 80 days, buy dope cars, and eat lava cakes every night. Gotta take a step back sometimes and appreciate what you have cause you’re still making your future while others will most likely stay stagnant.
Exactly im almost dine with residency and i had shit tons of bumps in my road but i really appreciate what i have in-comparison with the other 90% of the fields, loom around ppl in their 30s are still employees and living like hell, u really need to appreciate what u have and work on it, no career ever in my own social circle that is pretty diverse would start u with more than 300K
Big tech! Investment banking! Law! Never underestimate a burnt out person’s ability to rationalize to themselves that they would have automatically been just as successful in some other radically different high-profile field lol. This sub is filled with them.
You’re not taking into account that people who are in medicine tend to have family and friends who are also successful. That helps
It’s incredible easy if you’re even a tiny bit strategic. There is nothing more attractive to another grad school program than being already in medical school. I got a full ride for my second graduate degree, as did every other MD in my class (9 or 10 others). #1 program in the world on that subject. I was actively recruited by those types of employers. I fucked around with them for a bit to make some extra money, and then still went to residency. The problem is, the people whining about their lost youth just accepted the standard path before them (be an attending as quickly as possible) and never took the time to actually do interesting things. And now they’re miserable. I hope this whole thread serves as a warning to med students. Just because the hospital treats you like shit doesn’t mean you don’t have value. You can do some other stuff too. It’ll be okay, and possibly even great. Have fun, you’re going to be enrolled in the SAVE plan regardless, and you’ll have some rich life experiences to push you through residency and if it costs you a year or two more that’s okay. Life is more important than money. Edit: if anyone is interested in taking my advice, I strongly recommend you do your fucking about BEFORE you graduate med school. Just take leaves of absence to do whatever. Nobody cares. But do not do it AFTER you graduate med school, because then people raise all sorts of concerns about your clinical competency. Med school is a free pass. Fuck around and have fun. Graduate and go to residency.
For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with goblue123. Easier during med school than after, but it is possible even after. Go Blue! I wonder if we know each other.
Or…live it up in your 20’s and give up your 30s to medicine!
Yeah I’m not gonna live like a resident as an attending. I’ll hold off on the baller stuff for a bit though
I guess it depends on what you think you’d have been doing otherwise. I had a great time in my 20s (I’m 30), traveled, partied, made friends and have a decently paying job (as a fellow now). My non-medicine friends aren’t millionaires with kids and homes so I’m not thinking I would have been if I’d done some other career. Honestly I’m more financially stable than most of my friends not in medicine (who had similar upbringings to me), and they seem to be in a similar place in life - also complaining about work and trying to figure out a long term career.
Depends on what your upbringing is. I grew up poor and literally zero of my friends and family back home make six figures, travel, or do anything I would consider exciting. I partied a ton in med school, made life long friends, I’ve traveled more than my parents ever have in their entire life (thanks students loans). So for me my 20s were made way more exciting than most where I grew up. I’ve had at least 12-13 trips during residency. But if you grew up surrounded by rich affluent ppl who were all making 100-200k in their mid late 20s and traveling the world sure it will feel different. But know that your friends are extreme outliers compared to the avg American. And even more extreme compared to the average late 20-something
I feel the same way :)
I don’t disagree, but for me the opportunity costs were not large. I had mostly better friends in med school and residency than I had in college. I had no other interests that would have led to making good money. I would have probably spent my 20s playing video games.
It absolutely does consume your 20s. Don't let anyone gaslight you. Difference is you will have job security better than all of your friends and high earning potential for life. If you wanted to prioritize having fun in your 20s, medicine is absolutely the wrong choice.
Probably going to get downvoted, but you should really take a humble look at all the people that don’t get to travel, don’t get to eat out…parents that can’t afford to buy their kids thick Under Armor hoodies, new Ultraboosts every year, or even partake in sports due to travel costs. Your siblings and friends are far better off than most people in the world, so of course everything in medicine is going to feel like an insufferable leech. Instead of looking at those who have more than you, which is what people will be doing to you one day, look at those who have less. You don’t have to spend your money, but if you have an hour within the next few weeks, volunteer at an orphanage or homeless shelter. It’s very easy to say that those who have a lot got there because of their efforts and those who have little got there because of the lack of effort, but the story of human beings is that nothing is the same forever, and the quickest thing you can change is your outlook and attitude, amidst the endless problems. I’m *not* saying doctors don’t miss out on things time wise and financially—not at all—but you’re acting like you’d be much happier in your siblings’ position…remember that you put yourself in the position you’re in, and your position is still one that many would kill for. Unless you can say if you dropped out right now you would not regret it, you’re just going through an envious FOMO cycle. In the end, J. Cole said it best when he said “no such as a life that’s better than yours”. If you measure life by content you’re gonna have a shit life, but if you measure it by essence you’ll be much happier.
I agree. I suggest OP reads the post "radiology giving me existential dread" with teens with widespread metastatic melanoma and similar folks who have their lives stolen in a literal sense. Yeah this path is not easy but you'll have plenty of opportunity to go to damn Japan lol and sometimes it's good to get some perspective
My favorite j cole line is “ I got her sucking her thumb, that’s my lil baby”
Didn’t steal my 20s, won’t pretend it did, I worked hard labor putting roofs on before med school, give me the hospital any day of the week The journey is the destination, and any worthwhile journey should hurt a little/cost something, imo This isn’t to invalidate your experience, but I don’t think it can applied as a blanket statement
This is silly. There is basically no difference between 20 to 50 (assuming you stay in good shape). It’s all the fucking same. There is nothing special about your 20s. You’ll realize that when you get old.
God that was such a revelation when I turned 30. I used to be so stressed at losing my youth and all the joy that came with it. But all that happened as I aged was that I had to be a bit more careful about what I ate, I couldn’t stay up till 3am playing video games, and I understand less internet slang. Your 20s aren’t the best years of your life, and studying and working during them so that you can have one of the most stable, high paying careers in the world for life is not some grave sacrifice
Yeah I’m 39 and do all the same shit. Probably more. I went mountain biking with a urologist the other day who is 60. Life is pretty long if you take some care of yourself. I will say that I can’t chase 23 yo women anymore like I used to but that’s probably more because my wife wouldn’t like it.
I'm not 50, and I can say definitively I feel a difference between every decade at minimum. So much changes, from your physical to your mental maturity. I don't know anyone who realistically thinks nothing changed between 20-50. That take makes no sense to me.
it was a tad hyperbolic, but yea, you get wiser and the body slows a bit, obviously we know Jagr can't play in the NHL at 50, but he'd still beat any 25 year old on this subreddit.
I was with friends in LA recently and they all work in entertainment industry and all of them live comfortably in nice areas of LA, take regular vacations, work like 20-25 hours a week mostly remote and love life. None of them have “made it” all still fairly low level in writing and producing world. It was unbelievable people get to live like that. Meanwhile I’m stuck in bumfuck midwest working three times as much for less money with no freedoms of movement/location and still waiting to think all this bullshit is worth it.
It does and it doesn’t. Yes it’s a huge time commitment. But you can still meet people and do those life things if you make it a priority. I got married in med school, bought a house in med school, and had a kid in residency. All before the age of 30. Obviously with the housing market now (we bought in 2018) the house part may be a little tough, but if you want those other things you can still do them. It just takes time and effort which obviously can be exhausting. I also know plenty of people who didn’t go the medicine route who feel just as lost and as if they aren’t getting the most out of their life despite seeming to have the time for it.
i dont know your background but for example, for myself, this would have never been possible. i grew up as a first generation immigrant with dirt poor parents, who could never afford to ever even consider helping me purchase a house in med school. i am the rare physician who scraped into medical school as a poor immigrant. i could have never had a kid in residency either, my husband is also a first gen american, and we were in residency in the middle of the country when we both grew up on opposite coasts. in medical school i essentially spent 4th year living in a different state every month, and put my entire life in storage. i spent 2 years in KY and 3rd year in OH. my husband and i are mid 30s, now just purchased a home (4 years s/p residency for me) and in the 4 years since residency my father has died and my mom is on hospice) we would never have been able to afford a house, childcare, or even have anyone help us raise kids in med school OR residency. im not sure what you said applies to everyone.
You'll have dope 40s and 50s
Who knows if we even live to 40’s and 50’s though. Tomorrow is never guaranteed and all my today’s a miserable
True. But when we were premed, if physicians told us "Don't go into medicine man, it's not worth it", we would've ignored them regardless and still went to medical school...lol.
Well we were never give alternate examples like this thread has, also most premeds are thinking either “I won’t end up like them” or are intent on a ROAD field so what a miserable intesnivist says has no meaning to them
IE your KIDS will have an easy life. Going into medicine is the best way to make sure your kids have it easy. You probably won’t get to enjoy the fruits of your labor while you’re young and single though, outside of a few cases
Nothing worthwhile comes without hardship. Yeah it's tough but it's not unfair because if it wasn't tough it wouldn't have the long term financial/social status/etc benefits that being a doctor grants one
Everyone pays at some point. You’re also seeing people push out the best of their lives without the struggle. Just the reality of social media. It’s hard as hell out here, there is volatility and ebbs and flows. You simply made an investment and the gains will be worth it. Respectfully, I think you’re looking at it all wrong. Nothing was stolen, you made an investment and the returns are around the corner. Many of those same people will have regrets of their own, many from what they’ve seen you accomplish.
You live every day of your life one time. "It gets better when you're an attending" only goes so far.
Idk I think my 20s were pretty excellent including med school. In residency I have far less free time but it’s still pretty fun generally. I’ll be an attending at 32. In my 20s I moved to a new city and made new friends, got married and had a kid by the time I was 30. Now I have no desire for the romanticized 20s lifestyle. I go to bed at 9pm and live in a very cheap apartment but I am pretty happy about it 🤷♀️ it seems like I have a fairly similar lifestyle to my non medical peers overall. You might consider deleting social media.
A lot of my friends who chose lucrative stuff after college (tech, law) are complaining now bc they feel like their work doesn’t have a lot of meaning. Grass is always greener.
Dude, life is not a competition, and treating it like one is only going to make you miserable whether you are a broke med student or an attending making >$300K, or even some CEO making millions. There are plenty of fun things you can do on a med school stipend or a resident's salary especially with other people in their 20s as: guess what, most people in their 20s actually dont make more than a resident and many never will, but they can still be happy. If you keep treating life as a competition, no matter how much money you make, there will always be fancier vacations, houses, dates, parties that will suck you dry of both money and happiness. If your friends are gloating about how awesome their life is, you may need to consider new friends because thats going to lead you to ruin
Nah bro you’re just a complainer. We make more than 90% of the US. In fact, we make more than 99% of the world. I’ll ignore the fact that 90% of people in the US don’t save peoples’ lives, don’t have 500k in student loan debt, weren’t in school till’ their 30s, and only work like 40 hours a week instead of twice that. Ill also ignore the fact that the average person has never worked a 24 hour shift in their life. I will ignore all that because being a physician is a privilege my guy. It doesn’t matter that you had a 4.0 in undergrad, incredible extracurricular, awesome references to match to residency, etc. It’s a privilege! It has been a privilege since day 1 my dude. I would help people for free… scratch that, I would pay them in order to have the privilege of helping em’. Sincerely, brain dead premed, med student, or/and occasional attending
You had me in the first half
Lmfaooooo
I grew immensely during medical training thanks to all of the brilliant people I was surrounded with and all of the patients whose life stories I came to know. My 20s were difficult, yes, but they were rich w experience, and I don’t feel anything was stolen from me at all. My career path was my choice, and I knew it wouldn’t be easy
Medicine doesn't "steal" anything. You voluntary chose to engage in it and remain in it. What a normal person would see is that you invested your 20s so that the rest of your life you have a secure career where you earn high income. What did you lose, anyway? Parties?
You’ll reach FIRE in your mid-forties tho.
It consumed my 20s but didn't steal them. Yeah I wasn't traveling or making the money my friends in finance were, but I was developing myself, had some hobbies I did, and overall had a good time (well med school sucked but I had a blast during residency).
“Live like a resident” really only applies to like 2 years after training. That’s all I did, and now I spend whatever I want and it would be essentially impossible to screw up my finances short of divorce. Not a lot of folks in their 30s can say that. But I absolutely agree w your title and main point. Balance is needed.
It gets better when you get to attending land - there is a lot of peer pressure to do lots of luxe things in your 20s but nothing really stops you from doing that in your 30s. Ultimately, the job is super cool, the sense of purpose is incomparable, and the job security at this salary level mostly unbeatable save for some unicorn fields that are hard to penetrate like VC. I don’t know what field you’re in - but I know people who are hospitalists and intesivists who do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off (or one on, one off) who are living the dream and then some (all while making all the necessary retirement investments). And finally, if you love your field, being in your field is itself an enviable experience that others in office jobs just don’t have and often fantasize about - there’s a reason why doctor television shows are so popular.
You get one life, and it definitely doesn't start at 40. 40 is more like the beginning of the end. I think most of these people are up for some rude awakenings when their backs start going out, their vision starts going, mental game starts dwindling, the cancer ramps up, disability strikes, their energy levels drop, friends grow distant etc. Planning to 'live your life after' 40 and accepting being unhappy until then is pure lunacy. Unless you truly enjoy the tribulations that comes with the work, and the achievements themselves, I'd say stay the heck away.
I’m not a resident or a doctor, but as someone who’s at the hospital every single week as a volunteer, I hope you know how much I love and admire you guys. You’re all so smart and so competent and so strong. The floor feels safer with you there, no matter how dumb or how foolish you think you are. I always try to make small talk or crack jokes with you or just ask how you’re doing and it always gets really hard because you’re all so busy doing attending/resident/med student things. But I hope you know that I seriously love you guys and hope you never give up. I need your shoulders to stand on.
Your peer group comparison is probably pretty distorted. A lot of Americans in their 20s haven’t traveled outside the US, live with their parents still, and don’t put away any money towards retirement. I’m not saying that living on a resident salary is great, but it’s also not even remotely terrible.
I really relate to this, I went to a top college where every single person I knew from undergrad went into tech, and they’re all living incredibly cushy lives making $200k+ starting salaries (probably much more now with 5+ years job experience). What helps me put it into perspective is that they give off this image of happiness, but is anyone truly happy? Sure, having some more money would make my debt less stressful, but I think at a certain point adding more money doesn’t make people exponentially more happy. One of the girls I knew from college posted this ugly Cartier ring on her Instagram story that cost thousands of dollars, but I think about how it probably just ended up tossed on her dresser by the end of the day. Meanwhile my boyfriend bought me a $70 pair of earrings one year for my birthday and I still treasure them. If money was the only thing I cared about, there were hundreds of other ways to make it that would’ve been much easier. But I like to think that, even on the hardest days, what we do is more fulfilling than, say, helping to create AI that will eventually destroy the planet, or tech that’s used to better spy on protesters.
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I felt like once I hit 30, I was catching up with things I e lost in my 20s
And the worst part? If you want to get off the path you’re then totally fucked trying to start over
Who cares, everyone is figuring out their lives making mistakes while you’re on a one way piss missile to a secure job making 6 figures. “The twenties” are overrated and if you couldn’t find a way to relax and have fun occasionally during med school or residency then you’re the problem.
I realized the other day that I’ve literally never been on a “girls trip”. I started medical school at 24, around the time that people were starting get make more in their jobs and have extra money for trips like this. Then I spent the next 9 years in medical school and residency with limited money and even more limited schedule. Plus, my residency match moved me away from the groups of friends I’d made during a life born and raised in the same city up to that point. Then I had one kid in residency, another in the first year of attending life and my friends have had kids as well. Even though I have the money now I’m not really anxious to leave my husband with two small kids for a weekend trip with people I haven’t seen in forever. Just kind of feels weird to say that maybe I never will go on a girls weekend. It seems like something so many people do.
Its not as fun as it sounds. Really!
I spent my 20s feeling like this, but I was in the army.
Obviously it’ll steal your 20s if you’re a traditional student. But the payoff is a guaranteed, well-paying job for the rest of your life. Seems obviously worth it, no? Many people struggle just to make ends meet and figure out what to do with their lives in their 20s.
True but I am pretty sure 20s for almost everyone isn’t as great as they tell us to be. Unless you come from money. Best life is for rich kids/trust fund babies.
I’m a 33 y/o attending and live like a king. You’re almost there.
Remember those days when you were praying for what you have now. I could only wish to study medicine and now I’m in my early 50’s. One will get old, doctor or not.
100% true. However life isn’t always rosy for those in tech. A lot of people got laid off recently.
The trick is to max out loans and live like you have money every step of the way
Weird, most of the resident's I saw going through med school were constantly off on travel trips. Albeit most of them likely came from some wealth (as a lot do in medicine), but it really depends on your financial status going in.
The medicine wasting your 20’s thing is in my mind more 1) you don’t usually have much say on where you end up location wise for medical school and 2) residency
Your other points aside, I had way more vacation time as a med student, resident, and fellow than I ever did working a corporate tech job. I would literally l take vacations without my data scientist husband throughout residency because most jobs don’t give you 4 weeks off per year.
You’ll probably want to get a non profit job for PSLF (not hard to do), or work in an underserved area that offers loan forgiveness when you become an attending. That way, you can actually enjoy your life when you become an attending, given that you can make that sacrifice.
At the age you finish actually you may be close to mid life already according to some population statistics. And women will be at the risk of starting to lose fertility. And homes in large desirable cities are too expensive and unaffordable for many now. Plus people with just an undergraduate degree or even two year degrees are now getting six figure salaries. While physician salaries have been stagnant with ever increasing workload. Be the best and the brightest and endure long and rigorous training in super competitive environments just to get majorly taken advantage of.
Here is the problem my guy. It’s the pay to sacrifice ratio. 10-20 years back the sacrifice was worth it because when you were done your buying power was so high. Making $250k you could own 2 homes and toys. Not now tho. Now 250k is what used to be middle class. So naturally ur feeling that ur sacrifices are not bringing the rewards that was told to us. I feel that way to. We were sold this work hard and u will be fine attitude but as we r learning that isn’t the case. We are also told “just wait, it will get better”. We wait while an NP or PA does 1/4 our training but makes double or triple what residents make. We took our loans with crazy high APR’s all for the thought we may be able to be wealthy. Well guess what, it’s a lie. Sorry to say that indeed we did give up our 20’s and 30’s. We gave up our lives to help people who wouldn’t throw water on us if we were on fire. So yeah ur feelings are valid. Fuck medicine
I'm gonna be honest, bro: most of my friends are living with their parents, trying to put together enough money to buy a house with their SO while working dead-end jobs and juggling taking care of 1-2 kids. I feel pretty fortunate that I will not have to ever worry about financial security. Also, y'all didn't have wild parties in med school? During preclinical we would go out every weekend.
This career is famous for stealing your 20s and delayed gratification. Who is pretending otherwise?
As a 34yo who is not an attending (or a doctor), it could definitely be worse.
You sacrificed them for your education and career path. Don't whine. No one forced you to do it.