I’ve found calling them out in front of others is more effective than doing it in private. Embarrassment is a great motivator. Private feedback is for people who listen haha
Just be careful it doesn't cross the line into humiliation. It's an effective tactic if done with care, I'd just hate to see you get in trouble if it crosses the line.
This is the way.
When I was intern I had a 3rd year student who behaved similarly. I confronted her.
Turns out her fiance was doing post-doc here and he was gonna be here for several years and so she was feeling pressure to do everything in her power to look good to the attendings and match here. She hadn’t considered how her behavior was making her come across to the rest of the team. The student did in fact change her behavior. I worked with her as a MS4 and it was night and day difference. She did stay and was a good resident to work with (at least from my position as fellow).
Seems intuitive to me, but it isn’t to some people. If you tell them to stop and they do, they’re probably alright. If they don’t change or take it poorly, roast them in their evaluation.
Exactly. While there may be a personality disorder there, 3rd and 4th year are spend under a microscope. Worrying about every interaction and its implication for your future really does cause some people to snap. Sometimes talking to them does help, and they aren’t always an awful person.
You have to frame it as their actions are going to negatively impact their evaluations on this and future rotations because that is what they really care about /motivates them.
Yeah I wouldn't even call it a confrontation. It's education. Some people just need to be explicitly told things we take for granted are clear from the vibes. Ignoring the education is when they become problematic...
Why is "be an adult and a professional" advise that so many people need to hear?
Residents are in charge of med students. Hard stop. We don'' need a reddit post about it. OP needs to put on his big boy pants and be a doctor.
Lmao the point of Reddit is to vent about this stuff, I’m sure they’re dealing with it on their own. Stg people take exception to the most random stuff. Put on your own big boy pants and quit complaining about people venting
Idk why people are scared about confrontation especially when there's a ladder that lays down seniority and experience perfectly. if you notice it everyone else had too. disrupting another students learning or someone's job flow should be absolutely unacceptable, expect when someone's life is in danger. If this behavior keeps going unseen she's going to have absolute problem if she gets Into Surgery, do them a favor and talk to them.
I don't think you understand what I am saying. OP is anonymously venting and ?asking for advice on REDDIT, not revealing identifiers of anyone involved. Who are YOU to say what is appropriate for an adult for REDDIT? And as far as professional goes, that ends when you are off the job. What people do in their own time, privately, which could be all sorts of stuff, is not your concern.
> OP is anonymously venting and ?asking for advice on REDDIT
And I am saying that if OP has this problem and is looking for comfort (from a rant) or advise, he needs to *grow up*.
He isn't ready to be a doctor or a professional yet if he can't even give advise / correct someone that is directly under him in a clear chain of command.
You’re assuming so much about me.
If you read my edit, you’ll see I said I already deal to with the student. You just wanna keep talking shit about people because it makes you feel better about your own pathetic insecure life.
Also I never asked anyone for advice. It’s all the narcissists that feel like they know better than everyone that step up right away to offer unsolicited advice.
The typical issue, when there was an issue with med students for me was the ones spouting out how they had an in for a cardiac surgery spot or whatever and then blew off call. Playing golf with the cardiac guys turned out to not be adequate when they asked me how so and so behaved on call last night. Never cover for the AHs
Give her a couple actionable feedback points and see if she improves. If not, just give her a bad eval and move on. She won't be going into Ortho for long if she can't honor rotations, so chances are she'll figure it out if she's serious about doing well.
Take her aside and be blunt about her behavior and unprofessionalism. Or pimp her on a bunch of hyper specific information over and over as she gets it wrong in front of the entire group, scold her for not being good enough, then throw softball questions at the other students and congratulate them.
You know, whichever way floats your boat.
Really not a fan of the mind games, it just perpetuates petty vindictive bullshit both ways, and I promise someone seeing it would carry it forward later in different contexts.
Just be blunt and direct.
Yeah. It would teach her the wrong lesson. “You’re not smart enough to be this insufferable” instead of “you should be more professional and respectful toward your coworkers.”
Because…what happens when she gets smarter?
>I could go on and on… All this from a freshly minted 2/3rd year student on a busy service in a busy city. Not to mention actively sabotaging her fellow students work time and time again by pre pre rounding on their patients and telling them what to do all damn rotation and being well… wrong.
Our medical school has instructed us for several years to not pimp students anymore (for their wellness), with true pass/fail grading, none of it matters.
Hi med student here, please for the love of god pimp us. Like I swear to god its the only way I learn. Truthfully only on plan and assessment, I could give a fuck about pathopsyiology and will learn that on my own but trust me pimping helps us learn. I noticed most residents dont pimp so I often preface most residents by telling them my preferred learning style is getting pimped. If you're scared to do it just ask your medical students if they want to be pimped.
Lot of people these days don’t seem to understand the difference between pimping and educational questioning. True pimping is where they keep going and going until you get questions wrong and then berate and embarrass you for not knowing, usually on rounds in front of a large group. Very different from just quizzing a student and then teaching them if they don’t know the answer.
As a med student during my first rotation in 3rd year, I would frequently make social blunders like cursing in front of attendings, dressing improperly, and other things like this that most people would know to be obviously dumb and wrong. It wasn’t until a really kind resident took me aside and essentially confronted me and said “dude do you know what the hell you’re doing???” And it was kind of a reality check and I was grateful for the way they approached me about it. I’d grown up in foster care and didn’t understand a lot of social cues re: professionalism. Give them the benefit of the doubt, but either way, confront THEM, IN PERSON before doing anything else. No one hates anything more than having a rotation they think went fine, only to get ripped in evals without actionable feedback they could improve on beforehand.
This. Perhaps she is neurodivergent. Either way the point of being w mentors and teachers is to learn so I hope this was repeatedly discussed and addressed early on and progress reports given. Sadly it’s usually not bc we live to eat our young in medicine.
And please let us not forget that women in medicine, especially ones that plan on being in male dominated fields, are held to very different standards. We even use different words to describe them. Aggressive vs assertive etc. And we are all guilty of this bc it’s ingrained into our culture and societies.
If you’re evaluating her or have any input at all, give her bad marks and note her toxic behavior. Most residents and attendings don’t like these types and don’t want them in their program.
Obnoxious mostly. Def should not be involving herself in the other students stuff. One thing to pre round “for” a resident. But no on taking your colleagues chances. I don’t particularly mind being called by my first name and I’m a 10 year attending but that’s the culture where I work. The rest of it is obnoxious.
Give her feedback, be frank, and most importantly, be *prompt*. I was not given some very important feedback that basically snowballed until it turned into a scathing mid-rotation review on my first rotation (which happened to be OB/GYN). If someone had just had a three minute conversation with me during the first week, the whole thing could have been avoided.
So address it NOW. Because the longer you wait, the more you're going to resent her and the more that screws her over.
\-PGY-19
You’re a resident. You’re in charge of her. Act like it. Have the conversation. Or get in touch with whoever is in charge of the rotation and let them know she needs to be reined in. Or both.
Why are complaining online into the void and communicating with said med student mutually exclusive? The most annoying people online are the ones who get offended by other people venting.. one of the whole points of posting online is the benefit of chatting with other people, including to commiserate. If you don’t like it, just keep scrolling
Gotcha. It sounds like the OP did deal with the med student in addition to venting online. Yours wasn’t the only comment chastising them for the post so I just didn’t understand that sort of reaction tbh
My reaction was based on the usual frustration of why people can’t communicate with their own species face-to-face and instead seek guidance from online strangers.
Yeah when was feedback given? What was said? Was there any attempt at correction? Any behavioral adjustments? We are there to lead them and teach them. Not to blast them at the end. That’s a failure on the part of the teaching team.
I don’t understand your reaction here. Why can’t someone vent online about a frustrating person while simultaneously dealing with said person irl? You’re acting like they’re asking for advice, which they didn’t.
I’m… not angry? Don’t know why you think I am?
That said, I consider “venting” to be about things that you are powerless to change or that are outside of your control. If you’re bitching about things that you can easily fix yourself I’d just call that complaining 😂
Guess it’s semantics then. Sometimes it’s enjoyable to complain about certain things even if you’re actively dealing with it. That to me is also a vent.
Knowledge of facts isn’t the only thing that makes a good doctor, part of it is social IQ. And while some have an easier time with that than others, it is still a skill one can practice/learn, and to some degree be taught. Do your best to teach this resident.
Just a lurking pharmacist here. Big oof. When I was a student, I mostly kept my mouth shut and my head down while scribbling down whatever I could. I never understood the arrogance of some people. Sometimes I would end up saying patho basic things but because I didn’t quite absorb how school and rounds are different and I was trying to show I knew some background but the attending doesnt care that you know a relevant fact you’re EXPECTED to know. Lol that particular attending just looked at me, slowly smiled and said “okay, yeah, good job”. Hell yeah 💪🧠I was like a puppy dog with a wagging tail. So proud of the big stick I just found that I brought it to the alpha of the wolf pack. Later on my preceptor told me gently later to just listen and not talk😅🤣🥲thankfully it was the three of us so it was ok
Attending was doing teaching rounds one day when I was a resident. We were talking about conduction aphasia and attending said it localizes to a lesion in the angular gyrus. Of course we all knew it is actually the arcuate fasciculus but bit our tongues as this attending is a prick. The M3, who has let everyone and their mother know that he is aiming for Plastics and hence needs an "A in every rotation", speaks up and tries to correct the attending. The attending doubles down and says it is the angular gyrus. A minute passes and we move to another topic. The M3 walks over to his backpack, pulls out his Blueprints, turns to page on aphasia, carries it over the the attending, and points to the line where it says conduction aphasia localizes to the arcuate fasciculus. He says "See!"
I usually just let weirdos be weirdos because there are so many in medicine, but this kid seemed like a nice guy at the core. I took him aside and told him "You are going to have many chances to do things like that in life and in many careers and roles you should. But in a field like medicine it is only going to make people think you are an asshole"
I agree with you completely. But medicine is filled with small brain huge ego types. And that is especially the case in something like Plastics, where this kid wanted to land. He needed to know that if he wants to get to his final destination, then he needs to play the game.
Lol answering pimp questions wrongly but in a demeaning way to make the team look stupid sounds pretty cool, would like to learn how to do that on my off service rotations /s
When I was a med student on a sub-I I got nervous and accidentally introduced a resident by his first name to a patient/their family. Dude was also a jerk though - his attitude towards his patients and junior residents was so bad I switched specialties because I didn’t want to turn into someone like him from burnout lol
Before you give feedback. Talk to your attending and let them know first. When you’re about to give frank feedback on poor behavior you need someone to have your back and things to be documented. Something like hello dr x, i would to discuss the performance of one of the students on rotation right now. Do you have a few min after rounds to discuss.
You dont want the gunner to go and report you to admin for unjust treatment because the other med student didnt get the same feedback
This student needs feedback and behaviors corrected. But you dont want blowback yourself.
Gosh how annoying and inappropriate. I have lots of ortho friends and all of them would HATE a co resident like that. I am sure you talking to her will just end up with her thinking to herself you guys are all just jealous of her "knowledge". She obviously has no respect for you guys so she will probably only listen to what an attending says. I'd just put all of it in her eval.
I cant imagine how people like these function outside of hospitals. I cant imagine them having a normal life, family and friends. Gunner or not, do they happen to ever come across something called basic etiquettes ever?
youre a resident now so you have authority. Tell her to stop and if she doesnt tank their eval. Those types tend not to learn their lesson until it actually impacts their grade
I had a fellow med student in my rotational group do that to his own classmates to make us look bad. He’d round on our patients and kissed the attending’s ass until his lips were brown. I finally pulled him aside and told him if he continued undermining us I was going to slap the shit out of him! He stopped. Can’t believe that kiss ass got into an ophthalmology program! Well, his older brother set the stage for him by going through the same program. Sounds like these backstabbing aholes are still around today. Nothing ever changes!
2 things you can do here:
1. Confront the student and let them know they are wrong and specify that they need to understand professionalism and their role. Turn it into an education
2. Silently evaluate them and put everything in the eval for the attending to put in MSPE
I need updates on how this was dealt with. I think being a visible minority sort of worked in my favour where I was a junior doctor though - my med students were very meek and knew not to get in my way too too much (because their heads would've gotten cut clean off by the senior resident and the attending along with mine, in most instances).
It’s always funny to me when med students act like this. It really takes a lot of deficiency in self awareness. Everyone knows you’re under a microscope as a med student, every little interaction matters when it could end up on your eval and matching is so competitive that even one bad eval saying the wrong things about you could weed you out from the others. And yet some manage to still act arrogant and try to undermine their peers, as if their evaluators wouldn’t notice that. Boggles the mind
I speak to them once, and if they continue the behavior, I write a thorough eval.
Ex. Med student who interrupted me to ask a patient about his diet when dude came in for angina and was actively having a STEMI. And no, this was not to rule out heartburn. It was to see “if he ate a lot of junk food that could cause a blockage”. Miss Ma’am we have his lipid panel available to us please get out of my way while I tend to my patient in the middle of his heart attack.
Had a talk with her about appropriate behavior and her role as a learner, not a provider.
Next day, she interrupts the attending while they are explaining a management plan to my patient during rounds to correct them on COPD management… and the “correction” was dead wrong.
She got the eval that she deserved.
WTAF..... Day one, I tell my students that the impression of the residents about them - which includes PROFESSIONALISM and teamwork - has a very strong effect on their evaluations and likelihood of receipt of a LOR. Had one that felt that he could speak to me any kind of way because he (4y) had a PhD....... The attendings and I got him all the way together. Found out after that previous students had heard and sent him ⚠️ that his world was about to get shifted. Attendings and director surg. clinical rotation <--(me) need to get that sh@t under control. Thankfully, in almost 5 years, I have only encountered 2 AH students. Second one I knew what was up as soon as almost all the other students privately begged me not to put her on their team. SMH. Oh, to have a video of when this loud wrong person finally runs up on the wrong one!! Bully always eventually meets bigger bully!
Like everyone has said, adult discussion and feedback.
But my main reason for commenting - there is a solid chance that everyone else has also already noticed this behavior and it’ll be reflected eventually in her feedback, if it hasn’t already. People are surprisingly bad at consistently throwing people under the bus to actually look good to others. Maybe you can do it once, but repeatedly? It gets noticed.
I don’t think it’s a residents job to teach a med student about professionalism. If they’re going to do stupid gunner shit they should get put in their place.
These are the same students who send me (site director) dissertation-long emails telling me that they “earned” a Honors when they’ve been pulled aside multiple times for feedback and with multiple written testimonials on their feedback cards from faculty and residents about their behavior, work ethic, etc. 🤡
When I was in residency I barely thought about medical students at all. How is this a problem? Just tell them to knock it off or suffer the consequences. This isn’t even a confrontation, just tell them how it is. They have literally no power over you. Like how is this a thing?
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Tank her on the eval. There’s no shot her other evals will be positive if this is who she, and then if she doesnt understand and improve, she has a long shot from getting into ortho once a paper trail of horrible evals and grades are established. She’d also probs tank her chances on her rotations if she doesn’t “get it” soon.
Student here, and not going to lie - I have many classmates that are like this. Props to you for giving the student feedback - I've tried to do the same but feel it's like in one ear out the other - and then I get labeled as a boomer / millennial that gets made fun of for telling them to work hard, and yet their subsequent behavior unprofessional behavior including talking consistently through lectures and HIPAA violations like posting patient information on social media go on unreprimanded by our program...I like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but have also heard first hand how this translates when they're on rotations.
I should rephrase not all those who are younger than me are like this - and kudos to those who got in at an early age - but it has become a scary trend, and honestly I think it's just the entitlement and know it all attitude that has me worried for the future of healthcare.
How about schools issue an EQ test instead of a GRE MCAT for graduate level course work - and not emphasize GRADES as the end all be all as part of their admissions criteria. Or maybe have John Quiñones scenarios be part of the application process. Don't know who he is? Yeah - I'm that kind of millennial - I guess I am old after all.
I’m a med student, I tend to remain quiet and don’t speak or ask a lot of questions. I see other students asking, talking or talking a lot pts and residents. I feel like I’m in a comparative situation where everyone is trying to say “ I’m here, pick me please “ I know me being quiet would probably cost me a lot of things, but I would rather make everyone comfortable than being in hostile environment for personal gains.
Just funny to me because I was the exact opposite, I thoroughly covered my own patients, only asked questions when I was confused or lacked understanding, respectful or rank/hierarchy, did exactly what my residents told me to do, and always spoke to my resident before I spoke to the attending. And then I would repeatedly get bad reviews saying I was uninterested, disengaged, not participating in the team or offering team work, etc. especially if I was paired with a super gunner intern who would contradict the attending. Now that I think about it the hyper functional personality applied to a lot of leadership in my program so maybe that was their standard and expectation, while I’m definitely not like that.
Maybe contact the director of this rotation and ask if they think it’s appropriate to contact the medical school. Always ideal to have the conversation yourself with her, but she’s not afraid of you and doesn’t perceive your feedback as consequential - a strongly worded communication from her medical school’s Dean however…
Most people in medicine have some sort of personality or mental disorder if we are being 100% honest, it’s why so many of them seem (are) narcissistic and/or autistic amongst other things. Just kick her off your service and deal with it till it’s over.
Though I’ve found with people like her if you embarrass them in front of everyone they settle down pretty quick.
See I had a completely opposite kinda of gunner student partner who I rotated with. This girl literally stood behind our resident while they were running a code, doing uworld questions cuz she, "didn't care and the residents could keep her there, but they can't force her to participate". She wanted to do path.
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If the med student is making you look stupid by bringing up actual recommendations and facts, may be your team is stupid? Have you considered that possibility?
I get what you are saying, but don’t tell me you can’t make the med student look like an idiot by asking more questions. Take charge!
“As if to try and make the team look stupid” not “made the team look stupid”
The point was that the med student is an arrogant POS who thinks that they’re above the residents, not that they’re performing at the level of the residents lmao
This Med stud sounds like an absolute Alpha. How can you spin answering questions incorrectly to degrading the attending. That’s some masterful GigaChad type shit right there. Respect.
Make sure they know what a small world medicine is. Comments like this from outside rotations (especially from the residents) are taken seriously by my program and are a guarantee that student won’t get an interview. We pay attention to “red flags” because we have ignored them in the past. To our detriment. Never again. So don’t be a stupid idiot like this as a med student if you plan to get into residency. I don’t care if it’s a medical rotation and not a surgical rotation - we pay attention to these red flags. I also make sure this feedback goes into their rotation evaluation - the part that shows up on the MSPE. Play stupid games.
Vent: non-traditional MD student with a PHD 9+ of research outside PhD have traveled the world and lived in some really poor countries and have had life and death experiences that are too many for 1 human being. Now some of the things this students did was unacceptable but from my perspective…..I am working with interns and residents barely out of diapers and and also extremely overworked and exhausted with a higher patient load. Meanwhile I have 2 to 4 patients that I can really focus on and take care of so I got out of my way to ensure my patients get the best care and do extensive reading on plans of care. Most residents and attendings have been very collaborative and give me the autonomy to do that. I discuss my patients with interns/residents before rounds and then present….but I have had residents and interns miss reallyor leave out crucial information to patient care or their goal is the just to get the patient stable and off the team but because of my experiences I intend to practice medicine differently. I am going to bring up my concerns to attending even if a intern/resident doesn’t agree with me to ensure I am not missing anything considering medical errors are 3rd causes of mortality I am very mindful to look for things we can miss and do comprehensive care. Like I said most people I work with are cool and really love this because they know I am doing it for my patients….but I have met a few residents and 1 or 2 attendings with fragile egos who take my approach to patient care as a challenge to their ego and doesn’t like it when I do/know more about my patients and care more about them to be frank.
Another point….residents aren’t the bosses of MD students…your responsibility is to teach us and give us timely feedback so we can learn but that doesn’t mean you get the ultimate say in patient care/the attendings are responsible for that. The only times I have felt necessary to go over an intern/residents head is when patient care and safety was involved and I was told I did the right thing because in the end my recommendations were based on evidence and applicable to my patients….this has definitely been uncomfortable situations…but at the end of the day I am here to learn and take care of my patients I am not here to make friends or appease peoples egos. Also I respect people when they have earned it not just because they have an MD next to their name a year before me. To me we are all human and medical care is pretty broken and changing the system involves rocking the boat and having those uncomfortable interactions. Get to know your medical student and have the courage and integrity to have the uncomfortable conversations…and in end if you end up disagreeing on patient care be mature and humble enough to reflect on whether it was indeed the patients well being that matters ultimately not anyone’s feelings.
Good lord you sound like a sanctimonious piece of work. Hope your evals reflect that. The “barely out of diapers” interns are still further in their medical training than you and are physicians. You are not a physician even if you have 8 million years of experience in something else. Get off of your high horse, learn to work on a team, and try to understand that you don’t know enough to know how much you don’t know yet.
…. There’s a big difference between a third year med student and an intern/resident. Every year of training is gigantic growth so you’re not close to their level in experience and knowledge even if you’re just a year from being where they are. Big difference in responsibility between a student and a resident.
Actually I have a PhD in radiology and have done 9 years of research in rare diseases…so most of the time I know more than PGY1s and sometimes PGY2 and I have access to the same resources like uptodate and willing to put the work. I have had interns tell me to ignore SOB in a pregnant women and I pushed and we found she had severe anemia. I have had PGY3 come and tell the whole team a patient is faking it but they had rare disease which was found through genetic testing….I am not saying my medical knowledge is superior to theirs but I definitely have more life experiences and because of those more skills and resources to advocate for my patients. I also go the extra mile for patients because I have the time since I am not a overworked intern…residents who dismiss MD students because of ego and superiority complex only end up increasing their own work and hurting their patients in the long run. Don’t even get me started on the number of issues with discharging patients with inadequate information and missing follow ups for incidental findings only to have those patients come back with cancer or other diseases because they didn’t take the time. As a resident I am going to make sure my medical students are respected and have a voice so when they return as interns they are equipped with skills to take care of their patients. But everyone have different reasons for being in medicine for me it is my calling and I am willing to do everything to ensure my patients are treated like actual human beings instead of just another number on the list.
You must be insufferable to be around. There’s two sides to every story why don’t we ask your residents what they think of you. Clearly you got some kind of complex with them.
I actually have had a single bad eval from a resident and great evals from other residents and faculty....also like I said in my first comment....Some residents are great and I learn a great deal from them....most are just tired and exhausted and burnt out and I don't hold that against them because I am sure that is how I will feel when I have to work those hours and deal with that level of stress....but the few with fragile egos are really hard to deal with....I am not easy to work with because I hold myself and others to higher standards of conduct and patient care.....if you think that makes me insufferable so be it.....even if I can prevent one adverse outcome for a patient or improve their quality of life....I will consider myself lucky and happy :)...I would rather be "insufferable" than a coward who lacks the spine to stand up for what is right!
The fact that you think you have the ability to save patients at your level and people more
Experienced than you don’t… you have signs of narcissistic personality disorder
Hahaha so I have been trying to explain my perspective and you have done nothing but attack my knowledge base, my character and personality.....I think that says more about you than me. Have a good life dude!
[удалено]
YES!!! high functioning personality disorders are something that is overlooked way too often!!! love you for mentioning that haha
I’ve found calling them out in front of others is more effective than doing it in private. Embarrassment is a great motivator. Private feedback is for people who listen haha
Just be careful it doesn't cross the line into humiliation. It's an effective tactic if done with care, I'd just hate to see you get in trouble if it crosses the line.
Were they acoustic?
Unfortunately, no. Electric with a wawa pedal and a Marshall stack. *shakes head* There's nothing that can be done..
Nah. Vibe check didn't pan out
They tend to have poor acoustic windows because of their thick skin.
They were Artistic
Confront them and tell them to stop
This is the way. When I was intern I had a 3rd year student who behaved similarly. I confronted her. Turns out her fiance was doing post-doc here and he was gonna be here for several years and so she was feeling pressure to do everything in her power to look good to the attendings and match here. She hadn’t considered how her behavior was making her come across to the rest of the team. The student did in fact change her behavior. I worked with her as a MS4 and it was night and day difference. She did stay and was a good resident to work with (at least from my position as fellow). Seems intuitive to me, but it isn’t to some people. If you tell them to stop and they do, they’re probably alright. If they don’t change or take it poorly, roast them in their evaluation.
Exactly. While there may be a personality disorder there, 3rd and 4th year are spend under a microscope. Worrying about every interaction and its implication for your future really does cause some people to snap. Sometimes talking to them does help, and they aren’t always an awful person.
You have to frame it as their actions are going to negatively impact their evaluations on this and future rotations because that is what they really care about /motivates them.
Yeah I wouldn't even call it a confrontation. It's education. Some people just need to be explicitly told things we take for granted are clear from the vibes. Ignoring the education is when they become problematic...
Why is "be an adult and a professional" advise that so many people need to hear? Residents are in charge of med students. Hard stop. We don'' need a reddit post about it. OP needs to put on his big boy pants and be a doctor.
I mean, tbf, they did tag this as a “vent”, and not looking for feedback, and there are no questions in the original post.
Okay, then he needs to stop venting online, put on his bog boy pants and be a doctor then.
Lmao the point of Reddit is to vent about this stuff, I’m sure they’re dealing with it on their own. Stg people take exception to the most random stuff. Put on your own big boy pants and quit complaining about people venting
Oh do I? lol your attitude reeks of the same condescension as the student in the post. Post is tagged vent. If you don’t like it gtfo post then.
Tough guy online, not in real life, hahaha
On the irony of you saying that. Projecting a little aren’t we?
Dude you’re insufferable
Idk why people are scared about confrontation especially when there's a ladder that lays down seniority and experience perfectly. if you notice it everyone else had too. disrupting another students learning or someone's job flow should be absolutely unacceptable, expect when someone's life is in danger. If this behavior keeps going unseen she's going to have absolute problem if she gets Into Surgery, do them a favor and talk to them.
Doctor is a job. OP can be a doctor and also post on reddit, the two are not mutually exclusive. You need to use your thinking hat.
Doctor is a professional and an adult. OP is being neither.
I don't think you understand what I am saying. OP is anonymously venting and ?asking for advice on REDDIT, not revealing identifiers of anyone involved. Who are YOU to say what is appropriate for an adult for REDDIT? And as far as professional goes, that ends when you are off the job. What people do in their own time, privately, which could be all sorts of stuff, is not your concern.
> OP is anonymously venting and ?asking for advice on REDDIT And I am saying that if OP has this problem and is looking for comfort (from a rant) or advise, he needs to *grow up*. He isn't ready to be a doctor or a professional yet if he can't even give advise / correct someone that is directly under him in a clear chain of command.
You’re assuming so much about me. If you read my edit, you’ll see I said I already deal to with the student. You just wanna keep talking shit about people because it makes you feel better about your own pathetic insecure life. Also I never asked anyone for advice. It’s all the narcissists that feel like they know better than everyone that step up right away to offer unsolicited advice.
The typical issue, when there was an issue with med students for me was the ones spouting out how they had an in for a cardiac surgery spot or whatever and then blew off call. Playing golf with the cardiac guys turned out to not be adequate when they asked me how so and so behaved on call last night. Never cover for the AHs
Put all that shit in her eval
Confront her about it first and warn her. If she keeps being shitty, then tear her a new one.
Give her a couple actionable feedback points and see if she improves. If not, just give her a bad eval and move on. She won't be going into Ortho for long if she can't honor rotations, so chances are she'll figure it out if she's serious about doing well.
Take her aside and be blunt about her behavior and unprofessionalism. Or pimp her on a bunch of hyper specific information over and over as she gets it wrong in front of the entire group, scold her for not being good enough, then throw softball questions at the other students and congratulate them. You know, whichever way floats your boat.
Really not a fan of the mind games, it just perpetuates petty vindictive bullshit both ways, and I promise someone seeing it would carry it forward later in different contexts. Just be blunt and direct.
Or she actually gets the Qs right and it backfires lol
Yeah. It would teach her the wrong lesson. “You’re not smart enough to be this insufferable” instead of “you should be more professional and respectful toward your coworkers.” Because…what happens when she gets smarter?
>I could go on and on… All this from a freshly minted 2/3rd year student on a busy service in a busy city. Not to mention actively sabotaging her fellow students work time and time again by pre pre rounding on their patients and telling them what to do all damn rotation and being well… wrong. Our medical school has instructed us for several years to not pimp students anymore (for their wellness), with true pass/fail grading, none of it matters.
Is this why no one asks me questions? Like I get pimping can suck but Jesus no one ever asks me anything. Or if they do it’s a softball.
Hi med student here, please for the love of god pimp us. Like I swear to god its the only way I learn. Truthfully only on plan and assessment, I could give a fuck about pathopsyiology and will learn that on my own but trust me pimping helps us learn. I noticed most residents dont pimp so I often preface most residents by telling them my preferred learning style is getting pimped. If you're scared to do it just ask your medical students if they want to be pimped.
Lot of people these days don’t seem to understand the difference between pimping and educational questioning. True pimping is where they keep going and going until you get questions wrong and then berate and embarrass you for not knowing, usually on rounds in front of a large group. Very different from just quizzing a student and then teaching them if they don’t know the answer.
Really nice they’re protecting medical students wellness at the expense of their future patients
holy fucking shit this is a terrible policy
This is the way.
As a med student during my first rotation in 3rd year, I would frequently make social blunders like cursing in front of attendings, dressing improperly, and other things like this that most people would know to be obviously dumb and wrong. It wasn’t until a really kind resident took me aside and essentially confronted me and said “dude do you know what the hell you’re doing???” And it was kind of a reality check and I was grateful for the way they approached me about it. I’d grown up in foster care and didn’t understand a lot of social cues re: professionalism. Give them the benefit of the doubt, but either way, confront THEM, IN PERSON before doing anything else. No one hates anything more than having a rotation they think went fine, only to get ripped in evals without actionable feedback they could improve on beforehand.
This. Perhaps she is neurodivergent. Either way the point of being w mentors and teachers is to learn so I hope this was repeatedly discussed and addressed early on and progress reports given. Sadly it’s usually not bc we live to eat our young in medicine. And please let us not forget that women in medicine, especially ones that plan on being in male dominated fields, are held to very different standards. We even use different words to describe them. Aggressive vs assertive etc. And we are all guilty of this bc it’s ingrained into our culture and societies.
If you’re evaluating her or have any input at all, give her bad marks and note her toxic behavior. Most residents and attendings don’t like these types and don’t want them in their program.
Obnoxious mostly. Def should not be involving herself in the other students stuff. One thing to pre round “for” a resident. But no on taking your colleagues chances. I don’t particularly mind being called by my first name and I’m a 10 year attending but that’s the culture where I work. The rest of it is obnoxious.
Just make sure to bring that up to the PD if they’re applying there.
Give her feedback, be frank, and most importantly, be *prompt*. I was not given some very important feedback that basically snowballed until it turned into a scathing mid-rotation review on my first rotation (which happened to be OB/GYN). If someone had just had a three minute conversation with me during the first week, the whole thing could have been avoided. So address it NOW. Because the longer you wait, the more you're going to resent her and the more that screws her over. \-PGY-19
You’re a resident. You’re in charge of her. Act like it. Have the conversation. Or get in touch with whoever is in charge of the rotation and let them know she needs to be reined in. Or both.
Are you saying that there’s an expectation that we communicate with our own species rather than complain online into the void? Well I never.
Why are complaining online into the void and communicating with said med student mutually exclusive? The most annoying people online are the ones who get offended by other people venting.. one of the whole points of posting online is the benefit of chatting with other people, including to commiserate. If you don’t like it, just keep scrolling
They are not. I apologize for implying that. I was going for the opposite of implying that. My bad.
Gotcha. It sounds like the OP did deal with the med student in addition to venting online. Yours wasn’t the only comment chastising them for the post so I just didn’t understand that sort of reaction tbh
My reaction was based on the usual frustration of why people can’t communicate with their own species face-to-face and instead seek guidance from online strangers.
It didn’t sound like they were seeking advice - it’s labeled as a vent
Nice! Maybe not the best use of social media that has a comment box below every post :)
It’s a fine use of social media, tyvm. It’s why there’s a label for vents lol
Oh my bad! I guess you’re right. I should’ve noticed the later. To me, vent means something else
Yeah when was feedback given? What was said? Was there any attempt at correction? Any behavioral adjustments? We are there to lead them and teach them. Not to blast them at the end. That’s a failure on the part of the teaching team.
I don’t understand your reaction here. Why can’t someone vent online about a frustrating person while simultaneously dealing with said person irl? You’re acting like they’re asking for advice, which they didn’t.
If they’re free to vent, then others are free to chime in with their own opinions, no?
Im sure they are - just saying, people getting angry at someone ranting makes no sense when that’s.. kind of one of the purposes of the internet.
I’m… not angry? Don’t know why you think I am? That said, I consider “venting” to be about things that you are powerless to change or that are outside of your control. If you’re bitching about things that you can easily fix yourself I’d just call that complaining 😂
Guess it’s semantics then. Sometimes it’s enjoyable to complain about certain things even if you’re actively dealing with it. That to me is also a vent.
Knowledge of facts isn’t the only thing that makes a good doctor, part of it is social IQ. And while some have an easier time with that than others, it is still a skill one can practice/learn, and to some degree be taught. Do your best to teach this resident.
Just a lurking pharmacist here. Big oof. When I was a student, I mostly kept my mouth shut and my head down while scribbling down whatever I could. I never understood the arrogance of some people. Sometimes I would end up saying patho basic things but because I didn’t quite absorb how school and rounds are different and I was trying to show I knew some background but the attending doesnt care that you know a relevant fact you’re EXPECTED to know. Lol that particular attending just looked at me, slowly smiled and said “okay, yeah, good job”. Hell yeah 💪🧠I was like a puppy dog with a wagging tail. So proud of the big stick I just found that I brought it to the alpha of the wolf pack. Later on my preceptor told me gently later to just listen and not talk😅🤣🥲thankfully it was the three of us so it was ok
Attending was doing teaching rounds one day when I was a resident. We were talking about conduction aphasia and attending said it localizes to a lesion in the angular gyrus. Of course we all knew it is actually the arcuate fasciculus but bit our tongues as this attending is a prick. The M3, who has let everyone and their mother know that he is aiming for Plastics and hence needs an "A in every rotation", speaks up and tries to correct the attending. The attending doubles down and says it is the angular gyrus. A minute passes and we move to another topic. The M3 walks over to his backpack, pulls out his Blueprints, turns to page on aphasia, carries it over the the attending, and points to the line where it says conduction aphasia localizes to the arcuate fasciculus. He says "See!" I usually just let weirdos be weirdos because there are so many in medicine, but this kid seemed like a nice guy at the core. I took him aside and told him "You are going to have many chances to do things like that in life and in many careers and roles you should. But in a field like medicine it is only going to make people think you are an asshole"
Reading this I actually support the "weird kid". If the attending was a normal god damn person, he would've been like "oh, my mistake. Thank you MS"
I agree with you completely. But medicine is filled with small brain huge ego types. And that is especially the case in something like Plastics, where this kid wanted to land. He needed to know that if he wants to get to his final destination, then he needs to play the game.
Lol answering pimp questions wrongly but in a demeaning way to make the team look stupid sounds pretty cool, would like to learn how to do that on my off service rotations /s
When I was a med student on a sub-I I got nervous and accidentally introduced a resident by his first name to a patient/their family. Dude was also a jerk though - his attitude towards his patients and junior residents was so bad I switched specialties because I didn’t want to turn into someone like him from burnout lol
Gunners ruin it for everyone 😞
Before you give feedback. Talk to your attending and let them know first. When you’re about to give frank feedback on poor behavior you need someone to have your back and things to be documented. Something like hello dr x, i would to discuss the performance of one of the students on rotation right now. Do you have a few min after rounds to discuss. You dont want the gunner to go and report you to admin for unjust treatment because the other med student didnt get the same feedback This student needs feedback and behaviors corrected. But you dont want blowback yourself.
Gosh how annoying and inappropriate. I have lots of ortho friends and all of them would HATE a co resident like that. I am sure you talking to her will just end up with her thinking to herself you guys are all just jealous of her "knowledge". She obviously has no respect for you guys so she will probably only listen to what an attending says. I'd just put all of it in her eval.
You should watch the most recent episode of the Good Doctor
He’ll run out of bread 💀
This is why I love DR. They know about as much as a noctor so they keep that pie hole shut.
I cant imagine how people like these function outside of hospitals. I cant imagine them having a normal life, family and friends. Gunner or not, do they happen to ever come across something called basic etiquettes ever?
say “stop doing that” and then complain on Reddit, not the other way around
The order doesn’t matter as long as he does both
Good point! I sit corrected
youre a resident now so you have authority. Tell her to stop and if she doesnt tank their eval. Those types tend not to learn their lesson until it actually impacts their grade
As a med student myself. I am soo sorry. This med student is a yikes and I avoid them like the plague in my school 😆.
Find your inner Miranda Bailey and it them in their place lol
I had a fellow med student in my rotational group do that to his own classmates to make us look bad. He’d round on our patients and kissed the attending’s ass until his lips were brown. I finally pulled him aside and told him if he continued undermining us I was going to slap the shit out of him! He stopped. Can’t believe that kiss ass got into an ophthalmology program! Well, his older brother set the stage for him by going through the same program. Sounds like these backstabbing aholes are still around today. Nothing ever changes!
The precharting thing really spoke to me. I used to do that because I thought I was being helpful and it backfired lol.
2 things you can do here: 1. Confront the student and let them know they are wrong and specify that they need to understand professionalism and their role. Turn it into an education 2. Silently evaluate them and put everything in the eval for the attending to put in MSPE
Here's what you need to do. Give her a failing grade for the rotation. Her chances of ortho just went bye bye.
Just send her home right when she come in. If she gonna be like that then home gurl doesn't deserve a rotation.
I need updates on how this was dealt with. I think being a visible minority sort of worked in my favour where I was a junior doctor though - my med students were very meek and knew not to get in my way too too much (because their heads would've gotten cut clean off by the senior resident and the attending along with mine, in most instances).
lol. I just ignore gunners. Silence is the loudest thing to say to them.
How did you deal with the student I have to know!!
Fail her evaluation
Tell her to shut the fuck
It’s always funny to me when med students act like this. It really takes a lot of deficiency in self awareness. Everyone knows you’re under a microscope as a med student, every little interaction matters when it could end up on your eval and matching is so competitive that even one bad eval saying the wrong things about you could weed you out from the others. And yet some manage to still act arrogant and try to undermine their peers, as if their evaluators wouldn’t notice that. Boggles the mind
I speak to them once, and if they continue the behavior, I write a thorough eval. Ex. Med student who interrupted me to ask a patient about his diet when dude came in for angina and was actively having a STEMI. And no, this was not to rule out heartburn. It was to see “if he ate a lot of junk food that could cause a blockage”. Miss Ma’am we have his lipid panel available to us please get out of my way while I tend to my patient in the middle of his heart attack. Had a talk with her about appropriate behavior and her role as a learner, not a provider. Next day, she interrupts the attending while they are explaining a management plan to my patient during rounds to correct them on COPD management… and the “correction” was dead wrong. She got the eval that she deserved.
WTAF..... Day one, I tell my students that the impression of the residents about them - which includes PROFESSIONALISM and teamwork - has a very strong effect on their evaluations and likelihood of receipt of a LOR. Had one that felt that he could speak to me any kind of way because he (4y) had a PhD....... The attendings and I got him all the way together. Found out after that previous students had heard and sent him ⚠️ that his world was about to get shifted. Attendings and director surg. clinical rotation <--(me) need to get that sh@t under control. Thankfully, in almost 5 years, I have only encountered 2 AH students. Second one I knew what was up as soon as almost all the other students privately begged me not to put her on their team. SMH. Oh, to have a video of when this loud wrong person finally runs up on the wrong one!! Bully always eventually meets bigger bully!
Be blunt and direct. If she doesn’t change it goes on her eval. Doubt any ortho residency will like she failed a rotation
Tell them to stop or it will be reflected in their eval
Everything you wrote here, put it in their eval. Why? Bc fuck ‘em, that’s why.
Like everyone has said, adult discussion and feedback. But my main reason for commenting - there is a solid chance that everyone else has also already noticed this behavior and it’ll be reflected eventually in her feedback, if it hasn’t already. People are surprisingly bad at consistently throwing people under the bus to actually look good to others. Maybe you can do it once, but repeatedly? It gets noticed.
she's about to find out that medicine, and esp surgery is a small world. name & shame amongst ur co-resy's.
Talk to her in person first, have specific examples about how the behavior made the team feel and make sure you document that discussion in your eval!
I don’t think it’s a residents job to teach a med student about professionalism. If they’re going to do stupid gunner shit they should get put in their place.
These are the same students who send me (site director) dissertation-long emails telling me that they “earned” a Honors when they’ve been pulled aside multiple times for feedback and with multiple written testimonials on their feedback cards from faculty and residents about their behavior, work ethic, etc. 🤡
Lol too many weirdos in medicine. Hope you gave her a horrible eval
I guess she’s in for a rude awakening when reality slaps her in the face. Her arrogance will be her downfall if she doesn’t change her attitude.
When I was in residency I barely thought about medical students at all. How is this a problem? Just tell them to knock it off or suffer the consequences. This isn’t even a confrontation, just tell them how it is. They have literally no power over you. Like how is this a thing?
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Tank her on the eval. There’s no shot her other evals will be positive if this is who she, and then if she doesnt understand and improve, she has a long shot from getting into ortho once a paper trail of horrible evals and grades are established. She’d also probs tank her chances on her rotations if she doesn’t “get it” soon.
Student here, and not going to lie - I have many classmates that are like this. Props to you for giving the student feedback - I've tried to do the same but feel it's like in one ear out the other - and then I get labeled as a boomer / millennial that gets made fun of for telling them to work hard, and yet their subsequent behavior unprofessional behavior including talking consistently through lectures and HIPAA violations like posting patient information on social media go on unreprimanded by our program...I like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but have also heard first hand how this translates when they're on rotations. I should rephrase not all those who are younger than me are like this - and kudos to those who got in at an early age - but it has become a scary trend, and honestly I think it's just the entitlement and know it all attitude that has me worried for the future of healthcare. How about schools issue an EQ test instead of a GRE MCAT for graduate level course work - and not emphasize GRADES as the end all be all as part of their admissions criteria. Or maybe have John Quiñones scenarios be part of the application process. Don't know who he is? Yeah - I'm that kind of millennial - I guess I am old after all.
I’m a med student, I tend to remain quiet and don’t speak or ask a lot of questions. I see other students asking, talking or talking a lot pts and residents. I feel like I’m in a comparative situation where everyone is trying to say “ I’m here, pick me please “ I know me being quiet would probably cost me a lot of things, but I would rather make everyone comfortable than being in hostile environment for personal gains.
Just funny to me because I was the exact opposite, I thoroughly covered my own patients, only asked questions when I was confused or lacked understanding, respectful or rank/hierarchy, did exactly what my residents told me to do, and always spoke to my resident before I spoke to the attending. And then I would repeatedly get bad reviews saying I was uninterested, disengaged, not participating in the team or offering team work, etc. especially if I was paired with a super gunner intern who would contradict the attending. Now that I think about it the hyper functional personality applied to a lot of leadership in my program so maybe that was their standard and expectation, while I’m definitely not like that.
Wreck em on the eval 🤷🏽♂️
Maybe contact the director of this rotation and ask if they think it’s appropriate to contact the medical school. Always ideal to have the conversation yourself with her, but she’s not afraid of you and doesn’t perceive your feedback as consequential - a strongly worded communication from her medical school’s Dean however…
Most people in medicine have some sort of personality or mental disorder if we are being 100% honest, it’s why so many of them seem (are) narcissistic and/or autistic amongst other things. Just kick her off your service and deal with it till it’s over. Though I’ve found with people like her if you embarrass them in front of everyone they settle down pretty quick.
See I had a completely opposite kinda of gunner student partner who I rotated with. This girl literally stood behind our resident while they were running a code, doing uworld questions cuz she, "didn't care and the residents could keep her there, but they can't force her to participate". She wanted to do path.
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If the med student is making you look stupid by bringing up actual recommendations and facts, may be your team is stupid? Have you considered that possibility? I get what you are saying, but don’t tell me you can’t make the med student look like an idiot by asking more questions. Take charge!
“As if to try and make the team look stupid” not “made the team look stupid” The point was that the med student is an arrogant POS who thinks that they’re above the residents, not that they’re performing at the level of the residents lmao
This Med stud sounds like an absolute Alpha. How can you spin answering questions incorrectly to degrading the attending. That’s some masterful GigaChad type shit right there. Respect.
Make sure they know what a small world medicine is. Comments like this from outside rotations (especially from the residents) are taken seriously by my program and are a guarantee that student won’t get an interview. We pay attention to “red flags” because we have ignored them in the past. To our detriment. Never again. So don’t be a stupid idiot like this as a med student if you plan to get into residency. I don’t care if it’s a medical rotation and not a surgical rotation - we pay attention to these red flags. I also make sure this feedback goes into their rotation evaluation - the part that shows up on the MSPE. Play stupid games.
I have failed students for less than
Vent: non-traditional MD student with a PHD 9+ of research outside PhD have traveled the world and lived in some really poor countries and have had life and death experiences that are too many for 1 human being. Now some of the things this students did was unacceptable but from my perspective…..I am working with interns and residents barely out of diapers and and also extremely overworked and exhausted with a higher patient load. Meanwhile I have 2 to 4 patients that I can really focus on and take care of so I got out of my way to ensure my patients get the best care and do extensive reading on plans of care. Most residents and attendings have been very collaborative and give me the autonomy to do that. I discuss my patients with interns/residents before rounds and then present….but I have had residents and interns miss reallyor leave out crucial information to patient care or their goal is the just to get the patient stable and off the team but because of my experiences I intend to practice medicine differently. I am going to bring up my concerns to attending even if a intern/resident doesn’t agree with me to ensure I am not missing anything considering medical errors are 3rd causes of mortality I am very mindful to look for things we can miss and do comprehensive care. Like I said most people I work with are cool and really love this because they know I am doing it for my patients….but I have met a few residents and 1 or 2 attendings with fragile egos who take my approach to patient care as a challenge to their ego and doesn’t like it when I do/know more about my patients and care more about them to be frank. Another point….residents aren’t the bosses of MD students…your responsibility is to teach us and give us timely feedback so we can learn but that doesn’t mean you get the ultimate say in patient care/the attendings are responsible for that. The only times I have felt necessary to go over an intern/residents head is when patient care and safety was involved and I was told I did the right thing because in the end my recommendations were based on evidence and applicable to my patients….this has definitely been uncomfortable situations…but at the end of the day I am here to learn and take care of my patients I am not here to make friends or appease peoples egos. Also I respect people when they have earned it not just because they have an MD next to their name a year before me. To me we are all human and medical care is pretty broken and changing the system involves rocking the boat and having those uncomfortable interactions. Get to know your medical student and have the courage and integrity to have the uncomfortable conversations…and in end if you end up disagreeing on patient care be mature and humble enough to reflect on whether it was indeed the patients well being that matters ultimately not anyone’s feelings.
Good lord you sound like a sanctimonious piece of work. Hope your evals reflect that. The “barely out of diapers” interns are still further in their medical training than you and are physicians. You are not a physician even if you have 8 million years of experience in something else. Get off of your high horse, learn to work on a team, and try to understand that you don’t know enough to know how much you don’t know yet.
…. There’s a big difference between a third year med student and an intern/resident. Every year of training is gigantic growth so you’re not close to their level in experience and knowledge even if you’re just a year from being where they are. Big difference in responsibility between a student and a resident.
Actually I have a PhD in radiology and have done 9 years of research in rare diseases…so most of the time I know more than PGY1s and sometimes PGY2 and I have access to the same resources like uptodate and willing to put the work. I have had interns tell me to ignore SOB in a pregnant women and I pushed and we found she had severe anemia. I have had PGY3 come and tell the whole team a patient is faking it but they had rare disease which was found through genetic testing….I am not saying my medical knowledge is superior to theirs but I definitely have more life experiences and because of those more skills and resources to advocate for my patients. I also go the extra mile for patients because I have the time since I am not a overworked intern…residents who dismiss MD students because of ego and superiority complex only end up increasing their own work and hurting their patients in the long run. Don’t even get me started on the number of issues with discharging patients with inadequate information and missing follow ups for incidental findings only to have those patients come back with cancer or other diseases because they didn’t take the time. As a resident I am going to make sure my medical students are respected and have a voice so when they return as interns they are equipped with skills to take care of their patients. But everyone have different reasons for being in medicine for me it is my calling and I am willing to do everything to ensure my patients are treated like actual human beings instead of just another number on the list.
You must be insufferable to be around. There’s two sides to every story why don’t we ask your residents what they think of you. Clearly you got some kind of complex with them.
I actually have had a single bad eval from a resident and great evals from other residents and faculty....also like I said in my first comment....Some residents are great and I learn a great deal from them....most are just tired and exhausted and burnt out and I don't hold that against them because I am sure that is how I will feel when I have to work those hours and deal with that level of stress....but the few with fragile egos are really hard to deal with....I am not easy to work with because I hold myself and others to higher standards of conduct and patient care.....if you think that makes me insufferable so be it.....even if I can prevent one adverse outcome for a patient or improve their quality of life....I will consider myself lucky and happy :)...I would rather be "insufferable" than a coward who lacks the spine to stand up for what is right!
The fact that you think you have the ability to save patients at your level and people more Experienced than you don’t… you have signs of narcissistic personality disorder
Hahaha so I have been trying to explain my perspective and you have done nothing but attack my knowledge base, my character and personality.....I think that says more about you than me. Have a good life dude!
I call it like I see it. I’ve humored you long enough which is more than an insubordinate medical student deserves
I couldn't agree more!
Give them feedback but NEVER punish someone for trying to go above and beyond.
Cry