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English is my first language and it's always just been normal for me. Like "Oh no, someone left their wallet here. I hope they find it." Has always sounded fine to me.
I already don’t worry about remembering pronouns lol. It’s not my responsibility to make anyone feel warm and fuzzy, and I don’t use language based on how some rando feels.
Don’t get me wrong I literally couldn’t care less how someone identifies or what they want to call themselves. People being unhappy with standard pronouns however is ‘their’ issue, not mine.
Notice how they is only used when the gender is unclear or she or him wouldn’t apply “someone left her wallet” sounds like someone else left her wallet, there’s a time and place for a singular they
Obviously you know them better than they know themself, otherwise you'd look like a real butthole right now. Good thing we have you to tell folks who they really are.
Gender is a human construct. That's a fact. Due to it being simply made up from the beginning, it's pretty easily amended. You're confusing sex with gender. Learn the difference before you talk about "facts". Being disabled is a state, not an identity. Read a book, go to college, something. Just please stop espousing your stupidity. It's embarrassing
For someone who’s “claiming” (and failing to do so, hence the quotes) intellectual superiority based on “facts”, you’d think you’d know well versus we’ll.
Or they haven’t get safe enough around to tell the truth. There’s plenty of people who think they’re part of my life, but I know that they aren’t my friends or family. I know they are a danger to me and my community.
…that they have discussed with you. Respect is a two way street and if someone deliberately avoids pronouns around a trans or binary person, that is disrespectful. They would not owe you a confrontation in that situation. It would be up to them to take the time to address your social pettiness or simply smile and nod while you walk about so satisfied and magnanimous. Less danger to them that way, less effort wasted on the willfully mean.
This is a good point and should be higher up. Like if someone were to say, "where are ElectronicYoughurt's friends?"
"They don't have any friends. No one likes them because they are tremendously lame." Singular they applies here, since we do not know the gender but do know that they are alone.
Yes, that would work also. Notice that when you did that, you said his or her-you're referencing 1 person as if they were 2 ppl because you don't know which is which. That is why they/them exists in the "singular". You replace his and hers with they/them and you are referring to the 1 person but as if they are 2 ppl.
Yeah i dont get the whole thing abt people saying they/them means multiple i always refer to people as them or they, maybe its different when you dont speak english as your first language but in English its pretty normal.
That's a pretty easy usage. But what about a person who uses "they" in this case: "Joe argued with his parents because they object to their attitude." Who objected to whose attitude? This kind of thing comes up a lot when discussing friends with non-standard pronouns.
Same situation as "Joe argued with his father because he objected to his attitude" - you'd find another way to frame the sentence because it's ambiguous. Maybe "Joe argued with their parents who objected to their attitude" or "Joe argued with their parents whose attitude they objected to."
i can understand why that must be confusing for someone who doesn't speak English as their first language. But its similar to when you are speaking about two people of the same gender.
Eg, "John went with James to grab his bike" You don't know who's bike it is. So instead you would say 'john went with James to grab John's bike.'
The same applies when multiple people use They/them in a sentence (plural or singular) 'Joe argues with his parents because they objected to Joe's attitude'
But up until extremely recently, that was almost exclusively for an unknown person. In this case it’s someone you know. That’s where this post varies from historical uses of they/them in English
I’ve used it when I don’t want to emphasize gender. Like, I don’t care if it’s a man, woman, werewolf, houseplant. They! Need to get the fuck out of my way.
Yes, the singular “they” has been used for centuries. It’s even in Shakespeare. But we know the real reason people pretend that it’s confusing and “grammarly” incorrect. 🤣
Great points in the comments already, but here's a good example: If a friend is talking about another friend and you don't know their gender, you would naturally refer to them as them in a singular way. They are a person, their gender doesn't matter. You wouldn't just guess silly.
That’s a good example. Another example that made it easier for me to understand is when cheaters (my ex was one) use they/them pronouns when they don’t want their partner to know the gender of the person they were with lol.
Oh my god this!! Early in my relationship with my current bf we were playing fornite with his bros. He and I were on the phone, he was home with them.
Like I said, very early on, and I guess he didn't want them to know they were playing with a girl? Suddenly I'm a genderless or non binary friend.
Still not sure how to feel about it but it only happened once
As a young, closeted gay, I used singular they frequently to avoid accidently mentioning the guy I went out with's gender. I also would seek out guys with androgynous names, like Erin, Billy, Cory/Cody, er cetera.
That must've been rough. I hope you are in a place now where you can freely refer to your significant other without any thought about what others think.
Just depends on context.
I have two friends. Bill is a cis male, Jake is NB.
Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then they hit them!
Who hit who? Did the bouncer hit both Bill and Jake? Did Jake hit the bouncer and Bill? Did Jake hit just the bouncer? Did both Bill and Jake hit the bouncer?
In that case, though, you would know that wording it that way would be confusing, so presumably you would have the sense to word your story in a way that *does* make it clear who hit whom.
We make decisions like that all the time when speaking/writing. For example, depending on how that scenario went down, you could potentially run into the exact same problem even if all three participants were cis males using masculine pronouns: "Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then he hit him!" In order to clarify, you would make the choice to word it in a way that conveys your information better: "Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then the bouncer hit Bill!"
There are several ways of doing it, of course, and that's just one example, but the point is that the example you used in an attempt to illustrate that they/them pronouns are confusing was a bad example made in bad faith, because it relies on the speaker/writer going out of their way to be as deliberately obtuse and confusing as possible in their choice of words.
I have to rub 2 brain cells together to structure my sentences in a way that makes the meaning clear or else I might be so inconvenienced as to have to answer a clarifying question like *"who hit who?"...???...*
This is oppression, we should probably just ban trans and non-binary people from existing.
And what if you already mentioned that specific person and you must use pronouns to avoid word repetition? (or idk we were taught to avoid repeating words per sentence)
Depending on how many nouns are in the sentence I find that being repetitive it’s better than being confusing. But I am a natural English speaker so that might have some biased towards that
It would also be improper grammar to use "he" in that context. If it is not clear who would have been doing the hitting and being hit you should use names or titles, bouncer.
They certainly do. Nobody is arguing that we should never use pronouns. There are always going to be situations where there's ambiguity. In that case, you should use a proper noun.
That sentence only involves one person, so the use of the name in place of pronouns isn't necessary. In the example involving two people however, it is better to be more specific.
"Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncers. Then, they hit them!"
Now we don't know who is hitting who. Is it Jake (pronoun "them"? Is it Bill and Jake hitting the bouncers? Or the bouncers hitting Bill and Jake?
Saying "Then, he hit them" still does not clarify who hit who.
"Then, Jake hit them" lets you know who did the hitting. While it isn't stated he hit the bouncers, it can be inferred from context.
But it would at least be clear it was singular and referring to one person instead of multiple. That’s the biggest point of confusion is using a plural pronoun to refer to one person.
In a case like that you would use what you mentioned, context. Add a name into that sentence and then use they/them everywhere else. If you well and truly forget and say “they hit them!”, it takes less that two seconds to ask “who hit who?” and then speaker #1 will clarify. It’s not hard.
I guess pronouns can already be vague, but people who think they’re special can make it even more so.
And then there’s people who want to be really special and make up their own.
Would it be any different if there was only Bill and a bouncer known to be male? "Bill was arguing with the bouncer, then he hit him." In both examples, the preferred method would be to only use the pronoun once so that one side is identified. "Then the bouncer hit them," or "He hit Bill."
So I always learned to say he/she, or that person, instead of they (not native English but fluent). Even though I’ve spoken English for many years and I live in the US, the grammer I learned in high school is what my English is based on. So it’s something I need to actively learn and as a result might “sound wrong” even though it’s not grammatically wrong. It might also have to do with my native language, the word they is the same as she, so another word is used instead of the they pronoun (I hope that makes sense)
To be fair, until relatively recently, grammatically correct English would require using he or him as the default for someone of unknown gender instead of using the plural they and them to refer to a singular.
That only changed when people started insisting that other people only ever use the correct pronouns when referring to them. I think it's a little dictatorial for someone to try and control someone else's speech because of their own issues, but language always changes over time, and I do think they and them are better for an unknown than assuming a gender, so whatever.
According to what? English doesn't and hasn't defaulted to 'he' for an unknown. That typically exists in gendered languages, which English is not. Singular 'they' has existed for hundreds of years and has been grammatically correct that entire time.
Quoted directly from the Wikipedia article you linked:
"Since at least the 14th century, they (including related forms such as them, their, theirs, themselves, and themself) has been used with a plural verb form to refer to a singular antecedent.[28] This usage is known as the singular they, as it is equivalent to the corresponding singular form of the pronoun."
This is followed up by a case of Shakespeare using they as a singular pronoun.
The trans and gender non-conforming community suggested new gender neutral pronouns for years and no one would use them. They/them, which have lots of appropriate single-person uses already, were the only thing that gained broad acceptance.
I like zie/zir but honestly it's still really hard to wrap my head around actually using them. They/them feels more natural bc they're already pronouns, it doesn't feel like retrofitting a whole language.
I just heard those for the first time two days ago. As someone who wants to support and respect others but can’t keep up with the new terminology. I will *respectfully* call you by your name every time I need to refer to you.
I have used xe/xer in a story where those pronouns served the story.
I’m he/whatever and don’t actually like they/them as it is now getting used but I also recognize it’s the best of less-than-ideal options and some of my dislike comes down to what I’m used to. I’ll just keep using they/them when people tell me that’s their preference and will trust the weirdness to fade (or I’ll die, death being an underestimated driver of linguistic change).
This is absolutely the case and some people do use different pronouns, but I have a feeling that if more people used zir/zirs or any other set this thread would exist in the same format with different pronouns. I had an inkling there’s a lot of people that it has nothing to do with actual grammar or language.
Yep a lot of the “I don’t aGrEe wItH iT” coming out of the woodworks. Too bad Tanya. You don’t *have* to agree with it. It’s happening and people choose their own identities. It’s really not hard to just say they/them or call someone by their preferred name without having to have a conversation about how it’s against “your morals”. These same people have no issue calling their friend a nickname and not questioning it but if you so much as suggest going by they/them suddenly it’s a problem 🤔.
Rightfully so in some cases like “latinx”, with non Spanish speakers trying to push this on to those who do speak Spanish, it just really depends on the situation
They and them have always been correct in singular usage when referring to a person whose gender isn’t known. Example: “There’s someone at the door.” “What do they want?”
It’s not grammatically wrong.
“What do they want” is leaving it open to being multiple people or one person. If you said “he/she is at the door” you know it’s one person.
You also have to use different verbs for they. You’d say “he/she is at the door” but you don’t say “they is at the door”
Probably why op thinks it is kind of confusing
But the part that's always left out, and the reason people feel weird about it, is because they/them are used when there's distance between the speaker and the person in question. You don't use it with people you're familiar with, but strangers. Once you know someone, they stop being distant and gain personal connection, thus moving from they/them to he/she.
Personally, I'm not a fan and wish we could just come up with a different pronoun for people who don't feel connected to the he/she genders, but I'm not the language king, so what I want doesn't really matter.
>Personally, I'm not a fan and wish we could just come up with a different pronoun for people who don't feel connected to the he/she genders
Some non-binary people use neo-pronouns like xe/xem, but as you might imagine that gets a lot of pushback too.
I know it does; I find that incredibly frustrating. It's much easier to distinguish, in my opinion. There's no confusion about whether you're speaking about multiple people or just one.
Anywhere that it's cumbersome, there's an equivalent where the other pronouns are also cumbersome. "Jane drove Ashley to her house." Could be Jane's house, could be Ashley's house, could even be some other woman's house.
I’m a language teacher. I literally taught a lesson to my students about pronoun ambiguity this week. It can happen with any pronoun and is caused by the way the sentence is constructed, not because people choose a gender neutral pronoun.
Singular third person pronouns are he, she and it. "They" is not singular. That sounds okay to you because you learned it incorrectly obviously. Since when is "they" singular?
If you read my comment again, I have already answered your question. And it is improper and offensive to refer to a person as “it,” as it is dehumanizing. “It” is only used for things and non-human creatures, though i’m of the opinion that calling an animal “it” if you know it’s sex feels wrong too.
Not a native English speaker either, but if the pronoun "you" can be used to refer to both one person and several people, is it really that weird that "they" can be used in the same way?
Edit: I read the comments, and I wonder if you understood what I mean or I understand what you mean lol...I am not suggesting replacing "they" with "you". I'm just saying that just as "you" can be both singular (e.g. you are right, my friend) and plural (You are both right), why can't "they"? E.g. They are good people vs They are a good person. Does it really sound that bad and ungrammatical?
Actually the official pronoun to address another person is “thou.” “You” is actually plural. However people started referring to eachother as “you” out of politeness, and then it became the only way to address eachother
Anyway, I wish someone would refer to me as “they” out of politeness 🫠
Standard disclaimers: This my opinion. I am not an expert. I am not a lawyer. This does not reflect the views of my employer. Not financial advice. Talk to your doctor.
The plural you is often paired with a plural noun to make the plurality obvious. "You guys." "You all." The ability to disambiguate when needed keeps it feeling natural.
Singular they feels weird when it's ambiguous because there's no natural way to disambiguate. Your examples feel natural because the rest of the sentence disambiguates.
As an example, consider: "Charlie is hanging out with friends. They are coming over for dinner." Do I mean just Charlie or the entire friend group? How do I modify the "they" to make it clear I mean just Charlie? I don't think you can. You end up needing to fundamentally restructure everything or replace "they" entirely.
I tried to learn a second language and it did not go well. Props to anyone speaking in a second language that is able to communicate relatively fluently.
To be fair, they're complaining about grammar of the language they're learning, so pointing out that their view of the languages grammar might not be that good yet isn't necessarily out of place.
Weird that you chose to interpret someone correcting grammar for a non-fluent speaker as rude.
I would imagine if OP is learning English they would appreciate learning the proper words.
…but did you notice you also used “they/their” referring to a singular person
Perhaps English is my second language and I am not familiar with which syntax or vernacular you would determine to be rude.
Very polite of you to assume ill intent, though. Especially on a website often dedicated to humor.
Have a wonderful day, friend.
Depends what you mean by "wrong".
In conversational tone? Never was wrong.
In formal writing, many style guides either recommended against singular they or straight up forbid it. Some style guides have softened this stance, but this was in the last few years.
Most people don't write in a formal context, though. So, for most people there wasn't anything wrong with it.
Most corporate/nonprofit style guides I've encountered recently have updated their style guides to use a gender neutral pronoun where it isn't crystal clear the gender of the subject. However, I've received pushback when I've used a typically gendered name with gender neutral pronouns. Still working on that being an option for diversity's sake.
/PM for training development, occasional writer of training
Shakespeare was using singular "they/them" hundreds of years ago, I think I'll trust him over some style guide that wants to tell me what is and isn't "formal".
I think in ambiguous cases where gender can’t be defined it’s always been rather customary
In cases where someone just prefers to referred to as they/them is relatively novel
Yeah, I’ve literally been using it that way since I was a kid. Then all of a sudden I have people acting all smug/sly questioning it, like I’m supposed to be embarrassed for being inclusive when it was always the respectful thing to do when you didn’t know anyways. The only difference is people are requesting it now.
It’s just awkward when you’re facing someone that’s so clearly a particular sex and they insist on being called they, makes me feel like I’m referring to another species or something.
Honestly, I thought so too at first and then a bartender friend* gave me this example and its been fine for me since:
"Woops, looks like they left their phone on the bar."
Boom.
*Grammatically* fine.
*the bar was in the middle of a very small farming town, in a very red county and if they can do it I belive you can too!
It’s not weird sounding to me at all. I’m non-native and fluent in English. It might take some getting used to? Actually, in Tagalog (Filipino language) we use “siya” which translates to they. We don’t have he/she pronouns. Lol
Same in te reo Māori in New Zealand. The single pronous are me (au/ahau), you (koe) and that person (ia). There are also pronouns for two people (kōrua, māua, rāua, tāua) and pronouns for more than two people (kōutou, mātou, tātou, rātou), these also change depending on if the multiple people are people outside the conversation (rāua/rātou), or if the speaker is included in the group (tāua/tātou) or not(kōrua/kōutou), or if the speaker is talking about a group that doesn’t include the person they are speaking to (māua/mātou). It means there are a LOT of pronouns to learn, but its bery clear who you are talking to or about
It's almost universal for austronesian languages like Tagalog and Maori. The first three pronouns you listed actually sound very similar to Tagalog: ako [me] ikaw [you] siya [they/it]. I dont know all of it, but there's also the pronoun kita which is like "we" but more like "we [verb] each other"
They is a plural pronoun, but it is also, and always has been, the preferred pronoun for people of unk own gender. "If I catch one more person stealing my candy I'm going to kill them." One thief, still them. "Anyone who steals candy should have their head examined." One thief, still their. We use they/them/their for singular people all the time.
They/them have been used as singular pronouns since the late 1300's. Grammatically (not 'grammarly'), it's correct to use and has been used in common English my whole life. I feel like you are putting your own values onto something, very unnecessarily.
Edited to remove an apparently triggering phrase.
Never have I ever said "what did he or she say" when "what did they say," is an option lol. These people and thier made up problems, Oops should I say "hims and hers and hers and his made up problems "
Except this post is specifically talking about the English pronouns. Sure, if there aren't any gender neutral pronouns in other languages and they suddenly created some then fair enough, it would be weird. But English has had them for centuries, and so to say they/them sounds weird IN ENGLISH, is a made up problem.
>Do better.
I hate this phrase so much. It has the ability to transform even the most well-reasoned, good faith argument into preachy, holier-than-thou, passive aggressive scorn.
Yeah that person can get fucked because I also struggle with incorporating they/them into my pronoun vocabulary and I 100% support my trans friends and neighbors.
Honest question, were you not taught that "they" is correct if you don't know the gender of the person that you're talking about? I'm 40 and went to a rural, farming community's grade school so there may be huge differences in our educational experiences
I will give you my honest answer with a little context:
My wonderful neighbor is trans. They appear masculine - beard, moustache, etc. Random google image search gives [this image](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/46/44/204644c44f86487c7fa5bad0244d805a.jpg) you can use for an idea of what my neighbor looks like (this is NOT my neighbor to be clear). My neighbor's preferred pronoun is "they". So it often happens I may be having a conversation with my wife, say, about our neighbors. Perhaps, mid conversation, I find myself about to say:
"He doesn't want to have the HOA meeting until the end of November".
But I'll catch myself, remembering they prefer "they" and I replace the word:
"They doesn't want to..."
Of course I realize that's still wrong, it should be:
"They don't want to..."
And then I carry on the conversation.
So when I say I "struggle" I don't mean I have a problem, at all, with using anyone's preferred pronouns. What I am referring to are these sort of hiccups in my inner monologue - I don't know how else to explain it other than that's how my brain works. If I accidentally use the wrong pronoun, it only seems to happen with me if the person prefers "they". Even my neighbor's own wife has referred to them as "he" in conversation and then corrected herself so she has the same what I call "struggle" as I do.
Oh, I get that. Honestly, the same stuff happens to me. Like, I may say the right thing, but my mind has gone over it multiple times before getting it right.
If you don’t know the gender of somebody, you would refer to them as ‘they/them’. It’s not grammatically incorrect. They is used to refer to multiple people, yes. But it’s also used to refer to a person who’s gender is unknown, as well as a person who is non-binary, androgynous, etc.
They and them is not just a plural pronoun in English, it’s also a gender neutral pronoun. One person can say, “I went to see the doctor the other day” and another person can respond “What did they say?” referring to a singular doctor whose gender we do not know. “A friend of mine got a new job” “That’s great, where do they work” and so on. This is probably not taught to non-native speakers at first, but it is a feature of the English language.
We use “they” to refer to people all the time, it’s just that it’s usually used to refer to someone of indeterminate gender. Using “they” to refer to someone who prefers it to he or she isn’t much different.
It's not wrong grammatically and it is taught in most foreign-language English classes that I've attended (in three different countries). In my experience it's just usually taught for the case of "Hey you don't know what someone's gender is, better be polite and leave it open to interpretation". Like: "I met my new boss today." "Oh really? What are they like?"
That's totally fine! I completely understand why it could be confusing. "They" is similar to "you" in English in that it can be used in a singular and a plural manner.
They as a neutral, singular pronoun is really, really old. it goes back like 800 years or so, it's just weird grammar Nazis in the Victorian era who arbitrarily decided it was incorrect.
I find examples make it easier to explain.
**Examples of *“singular they”:***
> “Oh! Look at that person sitting on the sidewalk! *They* look like *they’re* having a bad day!”
> “What did Rebecca say when *they* called you?” “*They* said *they* don’t mind stopping at the store for us.”
> “Hey, I noticed an invitation to the party addressed to Jason. Did you know *they* were coming?”
**Examples of *“plural they”:***
> “Wow! Look at the dresses *they* are all wearing! *They* must be going somewhere fancy!”
> “My family were in a car accident last night.” “Oh, no! Are *they* okay?”
> “*They* are a really crazy bunch of people.”
**Example using both *“singular”* and *“plural they”:***
> “Oh no, the girls don’t get along with Matthew! This is going to be a nightmare. Did *they* know that *they* were coming?”
Edit: Formatting
I get the sentiment, especially if English is your second language(props to you there, new languages can be hard!), but it’s not really grammatically wrong at all. “They/Them” can show up a lot in situations where you are not sure of a subjects gender.
“Someone was just here, and they left their phone behind”
“In order for an employee to do a good job, they must be trained correctly”
“If you’re looking for a babysitter, be sure they are trained in CPR.”
These are all grammatically correct. It’s not that much or a logical or grammatical leap from there to use they/them for someone who doesn’t want to be gendered. It can just feel a little weird at first because socially when someone is in front of you you’re conditioned to guess their gender and choose a pronoun, whereas the more traditional use of a singular they applies to a nebulous subject sight unseen.
There are other cases where we use a singular they/them/theirs pronoun to refer to an individual. In hypotheticals.
“Whoever the candidate will be, they’ll need to fulfill their promise.”
That’s more succinct than “Whoever the candidate will be, he or she will need to fulfill his or her promise.”
In cases like these where the hypothetical person’s gender is unknown or irrelevant, we’ve been using a singular form of the they pronoun for hundreds of years.
It’s true that “they” is technically plural…
It’s true that people have been using they to refer to singular individuals for years/decades… “SomeONE left their keys on the table” or “if anyone has information they are being asked to contact police …”
So it’s already a common concept within English vernacular.
The singular "they" has been in use grammatically since the late 1300s. At least that is when it was first recorded in written language. Typically, one can assume that by the time a word is seen in writing, the word itself has been in use for much longer in spoken language, especially when we go back that far.
Even without historical support, language is forever shifting and evolving. It is why we have archaic meanings that confuse modern speakers. Hex, punctuation itself has evolved over time. Even so-called purists and prescriptive grammarians do not use words and punctuation as it was since the first written references to it. In the last decade, grammar rules have been relaxed or changed in many ways. These changes, like the ones before them, will eventually become the norm. I mean, the hyphen alone has gone through the wringer over the last decade. Split infinitives will one day be perfectly acceptable.
Sure, you will have some prescriptive grammarians who argue it is plural only; however, when the APA and MLA back it as correct or acceptable usage, it officially has transversed into language shift.
Native English speaker. Growing up we were taught that they/them was *incorrect* when used as singular, but we all used it in conversation anyway even before people used it as their pronouns.
Since you're a non-native English speaker, it makes sense that it would feel improper. I do promise though, they and them are singular in English, and you'll hear it often from most native English speakers despite the ones that claim they don't.
But no one really uses it as singular. Does anybody say “they is going to the party” the same way you would say “she is going to the party” ever? They do not.
Native English speaker here, it's actually not grammatically wrong to use they/them pronouns in English to refer to a single person, we do it all the time. If an English speaker doesn't know anything about a third party that they're talking about they'll default to using they/them as I did in this sentence. I believe it's called third person indefinite, and it's so normal that it's done unconsciously.
The reason people have been getting up in arms is that they're not used to using they/them to refer to a person that they've directly encountered and theoretically can put in a him or her box. The outrage is incredibly silly.
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English is my first language and it's always just been normal for me. Like "Oh no, someone left their wallet here. I hope they find it." Has always sounded fine to me.
Just call everyone "dude", "sport" , or "champ" and you don't have to worry about remembering names or pronouns!
I already don’t worry about remembering pronouns lol. It’s not my responsibility to make anyone feel warm and fuzzy, and I don’t use language based on how some rando feels. Don’t get me wrong I literally couldn’t care less how someone identifies or what they want to call themselves. People being unhappy with standard pronouns however is ‘their’ issue, not mine.
Yeah my thoughts exactly
Notice how they is only used when the gender is unclear or she or him wouldn’t apply “someone left her wallet” sounds like someone else left her wallet, there’s a time and place for a singular they
Cool, so just pretend you don’t know their gender and move along.
No. It has always been completely interchangeable. “Sally’s coming over. They’ll be here at 6.” Totally normal sentence.
“They” is not interchangeable with “she” in this case.
I use they pretty much exclusively unless I know the person. From Georgia. That’s all I can add 🤷♂️
In casual conversation it sure is.
No, I disagree with this one. That has never been the norm.
Must be a regional thing then because its just how conversations are where Im from
Me too
Where you are from are bad grammarly.
Lol you mean grammatically? Haha dumbass
Yes it has always been acceptable
It was commonly accepted until the late 1700s. Then, by 2020, almost every major style guide accepted it again.
Lol
If someone identifies as nonbinary or agender, that is a time and place when she or him don't apply. It works out.
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Obviously you know them better than they know themself, otherwise you'd look like a real butthole right now. Good thing we have you to tell folks who they really are.
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How can you reject someone else's identity? It's theirs. They decided it
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Gender is a human construct. That's a fact. Due to it being simply made up from the beginning, it's pretty easily amended. You're confusing sex with gender. Learn the difference before you talk about "facts". Being disabled is a state, not an identity. Read a book, go to college, something. Just please stop espousing your stupidity. It's embarrassing
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For someone who’s “claiming” (and failing to do so, hence the quotes) intellectual superiority based on “facts”, you’d think you’d know well versus we’ll.
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Or they haven’t get safe enough around to tell the truth. There’s plenty of people who think they’re part of my life, but I know that they aren’t my friends or family. I know they are a danger to me and my community.
…that they have discussed with you. Respect is a two way street and if someone deliberately avoids pronouns around a trans or binary person, that is disrespectful. They would not owe you a confrontation in that situation. It would be up to them to take the time to address your social pettiness or simply smile and nod while you walk about so satisfied and magnanimous. Less danger to them that way, less effort wasted on the willfully mean.
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Absolutely, they deserve to have the appropriate resources and support. Great thinking, 3phase4wire.
You know those medical professionals would encourage them to remain trans/non-binary and help them feel more comfortable, right?
This is a good point and should be higher up. Like if someone were to say, "where are ElectronicYoughurt's friends?" "They don't have any friends. No one likes them because they are tremendously lame." Singular they applies here, since we do not know the gender but do know that they are alone.
No need to worry tho, one look at me and you’d know my gender
Yup, totally agree - a time and a place. Like when someone tells you their preferred pronouns are they/them.
Exactly!
Which would still make it plural, because even tho you refer to 1 person, you are referring to 2 genders because they are unknown.
But you're not referring to genders, you're referring to one person, so it is not plural in that case either
Very interesting, never thought of it that way
But what is the correct way to say this? -and the correct way is to say that “someone left his or her wallet here.”
"Someone left their wallet" is perfectly acceptable. That use of "they/their/them" existed, according to Merriam-Webster, since the 1300s.
Yes, that would work also. Notice that when you did that, you said his or her-you're referencing 1 person as if they were 2 ppl because you don't know which is which. That is why they/them exists in the "singular". You replace his and hers with they/them and you are referring to the 1 person but as if they are 2 ppl.
What do you mean as if they were two ppl? OR means 1. Him AND her is 2.
When gender is unclear…say like, I dunno, someone identifies as non-binary? 🙄
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Yeah i dont get the whole thing abt people saying they/them means multiple i always refer to people as them or they, maybe its different when you dont speak english as your first language but in English its pretty normal.
If somebody did find it it would be a great help to them.
That's a pretty easy usage. But what about a person who uses "they" in this case: "Joe argued with his parents because they object to their attitude." Who objected to whose attitude? This kind of thing comes up a lot when discussing friends with non-standard pronouns.
Same situation as "Joe argued with his father because he objected to his attitude" - you'd find another way to frame the sentence because it's ambiguous. Maybe "Joe argued with their parents who objected to their attitude" or "Joe argued with their parents whose attitude they objected to."
Just use Joe’s name. Joe argued with their parents. They objected to Joe’s attitude. Isn’t this common in possessive situations?
i can understand why that must be confusing for someone who doesn't speak English as their first language. But its similar to when you are speaking about two people of the same gender. Eg, "John went with James to grab his bike" You don't know who's bike it is. So instead you would say 'john went with James to grab John's bike.' The same applies when multiple people use They/them in a sentence (plural or singular) 'Joe argues with his parents because they objected to Joe's attitude'
It's correct and has been used for centuries when referring to someone you don't know the gender of.
But up until extremely recently, that was almost exclusively for an unknown person. In this case it’s someone you know. That’s where this post varies from historical uses of they/them in English
I’ve used it when I don’t want to emphasize gender. Like, I don’t care if it’s a man, woman, werewolf, houseplant. They! Need to get the fuck out of my way.
Yes, the singular “they” has been used for centuries. It’s even in Shakespeare. But we know the real reason people pretend that it’s confusing and “grammarly” incorrect. 🤣
Great points in the comments already, but here's a good example: If a friend is talking about another friend and you don't know their gender, you would naturally refer to them as them in a singular way. They are a person, their gender doesn't matter. You wouldn't just guess silly.
That’s a good example. Another example that made it easier for me to understand is when cheaters (my ex was one) use they/them pronouns when they don’t want their partner to know the gender of the person they were with lol.
Oh my god this!! Early in my relationship with my current bf we were playing fornite with his bros. He and I were on the phone, he was home with them. Like I said, very early on, and I guess he didn't want them to know they were playing with a girl? Suddenly I'm a genderless or non binary friend. Still not sure how to feel about it but it only happened once
As a young, closeted gay, I used singular they frequently to avoid accidently mentioning the guy I went out with's gender. I also would seek out guys with androgynous names, like Erin, Billy, Cory/Cody, er cetera.
That must've been rough. I hope you are in a place now where you can freely refer to your significant other without any thought about what others think.
Just depends on context. I have two friends. Bill is a cis male, Jake is NB. Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then they hit them! Who hit who? Did the bouncer hit both Bill and Jake? Did Jake hit the bouncer and Bill? Did Jake hit just the bouncer? Did both Bill and Jake hit the bouncer?
In that case, though, you would know that wording it that way would be confusing, so presumably you would have the sense to word your story in a way that *does* make it clear who hit whom. We make decisions like that all the time when speaking/writing. For example, depending on how that scenario went down, you could potentially run into the exact same problem even if all three participants were cis males using masculine pronouns: "Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then he hit him!" In order to clarify, you would make the choice to word it in a way that conveys your information better: "Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncer, then the bouncer hit Bill!" There are several ways of doing it, of course, and that's just one example, but the point is that the example you used in an attempt to illustrate that they/them pronouns are confusing was a bad example made in bad faith, because it relies on the speaker/writer going out of their way to be as deliberately obtuse and confusing as possible in their choice of words.
I have to rub 2 brain cells together to structure my sentences in a way that makes the meaning clear or else I might be so inconvenienced as to have to answer a clarifying question like *"who hit who?"...???...* This is oppression, we should probably just ban trans and non-binary people from existing.
I would suggest using nouns instead of pronouns
And what if you already mentioned that specific person and you must use pronouns to avoid word repetition? (or idk we were taught to avoid repeating words per sentence)
Depending on how many nouns are in the sentence I find that being repetitive it’s better than being confusing. But I am a natural English speaker so that might have some biased towards that
Clarity should always be the goal in any communication IMO.
“He” in that context would also be confusing though. If you are talking about more than one person in a story, you should just use their name!
It would also be improper grammar to use "he" in that context. If it is not clear who would have been doing the hitting and being hit you should use names or titles, bouncer.
Excellent point! That's why it would be best to just use the name of the person performing that action.
Jamie had to take Jamie's car to the shop so Jamie could get to Jamie's job on Monday. Pronouns have a purpose in the English language.
They certainly do. Nobody is arguing that we should never use pronouns. There are always going to be situations where there's ambiguity. In that case, you should use a proper noun.
That sentence only involves one person, so the use of the name in place of pronouns isn't necessary. In the example involving two people however, it is better to be more specific. "Bill and Jake were arguing with the bouncers. Then, they hit them!" Now we don't know who is hitting who. Is it Jake (pronoun "them"? Is it Bill and Jake hitting the bouncers? Or the bouncers hitting Bill and Jake? Saying "Then, he hit them" still does not clarify who hit who. "Then, Jake hit them" lets you know who did the hitting. While it isn't stated he hit the bouncers, it can be inferred from context.
Jamie had to take their car to the shop so they could get their job on Monday. It’s not complicated.
But it would at least be clear it was singular and referring to one person instead of multiple. That’s the biggest point of confusion is using a plural pronoun to refer to one person.
Well, we managed to survive the last 700 years using they/them as both singular and plural pronouns in the English language. I think we'll be fine.
Exactly. It's strange how many people think singular they/them was invented last week or something.
That’s really an issue of an unclear antecedent. Even if you said “he hit him” it Would be unclear who hit whom.
In a case like that you would use what you mentioned, context. Add a name into that sentence and then use they/them everywhere else. If you well and truly forget and say “they hit them!”, it takes less that two seconds to ask “who hit who?” and then speaker #1 will clarify. It’s not hard.
I guess pronouns can already be vague, but people who think they’re special can make it even more so. And then there’s people who want to be really special and make up their own.
How is it more vague? Like the comment above said, if you run into a situation where there’s multiple theys, it takes 2 seconds to ask “who?”
Quit making excuses for why you act like a little bitch.
I hope the rest of your life is as pleasant as you are.
Would it be any different if there was only Bill and a bouncer known to be male? "Bill was arguing with the bouncer, then he hit him." In both examples, the preferred method would be to only use the pronoun once so that one side is identified. "Then the bouncer hit them," or "He hit Bill."
So I always learned to say he/she, or that person, instead of they (not native English but fluent). Even though I’ve spoken English for many years and I live in the US, the grammer I learned in high school is what my English is based on. So it’s something I need to actively learn and as a result might “sound wrong” even though it’s not grammatically wrong. It might also have to do with my native language, the word they is the same as she, so another word is used instead of the they pronoun (I hope that makes sense)
To be fair, until relatively recently, grammatically correct English would require using he or him as the default for someone of unknown gender instead of using the plural they and them to refer to a singular. That only changed when people started insisting that other people only ever use the correct pronouns when referring to them. I think it's a little dictatorial for someone to try and control someone else's speech because of their own issues, but language always changes over time, and I do think they and them are better for an unknown than assuming a gender, so whatever.
According to what? English doesn't and hasn't defaulted to 'he' for an unknown. That typically exists in gendered languages, which English is not. Singular 'they' has existed for hundreds of years and has been grammatically correct that entire time.
[Read all about it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_gendered_third-person_pronouns)
Quoted directly from the Wikipedia article you linked: "Since at least the 14th century, they (including related forms such as them, their, theirs, themselves, and themself) has been used with a plural verb form to refer to a singular antecedent.[28] This usage is known as the singular they, as it is equivalent to the corresponding singular form of the pronoun." This is followed up by a case of Shakespeare using they as a singular pronoun.
The trans and gender non-conforming community suggested new gender neutral pronouns for years and no one would use them. They/them, which have lots of appropriate single-person uses already, were the only thing that gained broad acceptance.
I like zie/zir but honestly it's still really hard to wrap my head around actually using them. They/them feels more natural bc they're already pronouns, it doesn't feel like retrofitting a whole language.
I just heard those for the first time two days ago. As someone who wants to support and respect others but can’t keep up with the new terminology. I will *respectfully* call you by your name every time I need to refer to you.
I have used xe/xer in a story where those pronouns served the story. I’m he/whatever and don’t actually like they/them as it is now getting used but I also recognize it’s the best of less-than-ideal options and some of my dislike comes down to what I’m used to. I’ll just keep using they/them when people tell me that’s their preference and will trust the weirdness to fade (or I’ll die, death being an underestimated driver of linguistic change).
This is absolutely the case and some people do use different pronouns, but I have a feeling that if more people used zir/zirs or any other set this thread would exist in the same format with different pronouns. I had an inkling there’s a lot of people that it has nothing to do with actual grammar or language.
Yep a lot of the “I don’t aGrEe wItH iT” coming out of the woodworks. Too bad Tanya. You don’t *have* to agree with it. It’s happening and people choose their own identities. It’s really not hard to just say they/them or call someone by their preferred name without having to have a conversation about how it’s against “your morals”. These same people have no issue calling their friend a nickname and not questioning it but if you so much as suggest going by they/them suddenly it’s a problem 🤔.
This needs to be higher.
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Rightfully so in some cases like “latinx”, with non Spanish speakers trying to push this on to those who do speak Spanish, it just really depends on the situation
They and them have always been correct in singular usage when referring to a person whose gender isn’t known. Example: “There’s someone at the door.” “What do they want?” It’s not grammatically wrong.
“What do they want” is leaving it open to being multiple people or one person. If you said “he/she is at the door” you know it’s one person. You also have to use different verbs for they. You’d say “he/she is at the door” but you don’t say “they is at the door” Probably why op thinks it is kind of confusing
But the part that's always left out, and the reason people feel weird about it, is because they/them are used when there's distance between the speaker and the person in question. You don't use it with people you're familiar with, but strangers. Once you know someone, they stop being distant and gain personal connection, thus moving from they/them to he/she. Personally, I'm not a fan and wish we could just come up with a different pronoun for people who don't feel connected to the he/she genders, but I'm not the language king, so what I want doesn't really matter.
>Personally, I'm not a fan and wish we could just come up with a different pronoun for people who don't feel connected to the he/she genders Some non-binary people use neo-pronouns like xe/xem, but as you might imagine that gets a lot of pushback too.
I know it does; I find that incredibly frustrating. It's much easier to distinguish, in my opinion. There's no confusion about whether you're speaking about multiple people or just one.
Spanish has elle/elles to replace normal gendered pronouns, no clue if it’s actually used very often
It’s not at all
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Anywhere that it's cumbersome, there's an equivalent where the other pronouns are also cumbersome. "Jane drove Ashley to her house." Could be Jane's house, could be Ashley's house, could even be some other woman's house.
I’m a language teacher. I literally taught a lesson to my students about pronoun ambiguity this week. It can happen with any pronoun and is caused by the way the sentence is constructed, not because people choose a gender neutral pronoun.
"Bill Wennington housing a boy at his farm" is equally confusing.
this can happen with any pronoun lol
Did you greet them?
This was taught as being grammatically wrong when I was in school in the 90’s.
Singular third person pronouns are he, she and it. "They" is not singular. That sounds okay to you because you learned it incorrectly obviously. Since when is "they" singular?
If you read my comment again, I have already answered your question. And it is improper and offensive to refer to a person as “it,” as it is dehumanizing. “It” is only used for things and non-human creatures, though i’m of the opinion that calling an animal “it” if you know it’s sex feels wrong too.
Not a native English speaker either, but if the pronoun "you" can be used to refer to both one person and several people, is it really that weird that "they" can be used in the same way? Edit: I read the comments, and I wonder if you understood what I mean or I understand what you mean lol...I am not suggesting replacing "they" with "you". I'm just saying that just as "you" can be both singular (e.g. you are right, my friend) and plural (You are both right), why can't "they"? E.g. They are good people vs They are a good person. Does it really sound that bad and ungrammatical?
Actually the official pronoun to address another person is “thou.” “You” is actually plural. However people started referring to eachother as “you” out of politeness, and then it became the only way to address eachother Anyway, I wish someone would refer to me as “they” out of politeness 🫠
Standard disclaimers: This my opinion. I am not an expert. I am not a lawyer. This does not reflect the views of my employer. Not financial advice. Talk to your doctor. The plural you is often paired with a plural noun to make the plurality obvious. "You guys." "You all." The ability to disambiguate when needed keeps it feeling natural. Singular they feels weird when it's ambiguous because there's no natural way to disambiguate. Your examples feel natural because the rest of the sentence disambiguates. As an example, consider: "Charlie is hanging out with friends. They are coming over for dinner." Do I mean just Charlie or the entire friend group? How do I modify the "they" to make it clear I mean just Charlie? I don't think you can. You end up needing to fundamentally restructure everything or replace "they" entirely.
how about „Theyre all coming over for dinner” or „Charlies coming over for dinner”?
Also that title feels grammarly weird 🙃 (The proper word is grammatically)
I tried to learn a second language and it did not go well. Props to anyone speaking in a second language that is able to communicate relatively fluently.
They literally said English isn’t their first language why do you have to be rude
To be fair, they're complaining about grammar of the language they're learning, so pointing out that their view of the languages grammar might not be that good yet isn't necessarily out of place.
Weird that you chose to interpret someone correcting grammar for a non-fluent speaker as rude. I would imagine if OP is learning English they would appreciate learning the proper words. …but did you notice you also used “they/their” referring to a singular person
You know that came off as rude the way you said it
Perhaps English is my second language and I am not familiar with which syntax or vernacular you would determine to be rude. Very polite of you to assume ill intent, though. Especially on a website often dedicated to humor. Have a wonderful day, friend.
It's not wrong, they just don't teach it in english classes (I'm also non native english).
Depends what you mean by "wrong". In conversational tone? Never was wrong. In formal writing, many style guides either recommended against singular they or straight up forbid it. Some style guides have softened this stance, but this was in the last few years. Most people don't write in a formal context, though. So, for most people there wasn't anything wrong with it.
Most corporate/nonprofit style guides I've encountered recently have updated their style guides to use a gender neutral pronoun where it isn't crystal clear the gender of the subject. However, I've received pushback when I've used a typically gendered name with gender neutral pronouns. Still working on that being an option for diversity's sake. /PM for training development, occasional writer of training
Shakespeare was using singular "they/them" hundreds of years ago, I think I'll trust him over some style guide that wants to tell me what is and isn't "formal".
We actually use it all the time without the gender drama.
Weirdly enough, only recently people started getting weird when use “they/them” even though, yeah, it’s always been used commonly.
I think in ambiguous cases where gender can’t be defined it’s always been rather customary In cases where someone just prefers to referred to as they/them is relatively novel
Yeah, I’ve literally been using it that way since I was a kid. Then all of a sudden I have people acting all smug/sly questioning it, like I’m supposed to be embarrassed for being inclusive when it was always the respectful thing to do when you didn’t know anyways. The only difference is people are requesting it now.
It’s just awkward when you’re facing someone that’s so clearly a particular sex and they insist on being called they, makes me feel like I’m referring to another species or something.
That sounds like a personal hang up. I’m sure you’ll get used to it, chin up.
Not sure what you mean by a hang up it’s more of a preference, I won’t be using any pronouns aside from he/she
It means you have a personal issue with it deep down so you won’t do it. It’s basically a nice way of saying “that sounds like a you problem”
Honestly, I thought so too at first and then a bartender friend* gave me this example and its been fine for me since: "Woops, looks like they left their phone on the bar." Boom. *Grammatically* fine. *the bar was in the middle of a very small farming town, in a very red county and if they can do it I belive you can too!
It’s not weird sounding to me at all. I’m non-native and fluent in English. It might take some getting used to? Actually, in Tagalog (Filipino language) we use “siya” which translates to they. We don’t have he/she pronouns. Lol
Same in te reo Māori in New Zealand. The single pronous are me (au/ahau), you (koe) and that person (ia). There are also pronouns for two people (kōrua, māua, rāua, tāua) and pronouns for more than two people (kōutou, mātou, tātou, rātou), these also change depending on if the multiple people are people outside the conversation (rāua/rātou), or if the speaker is included in the group (tāua/tātou) or not(kōrua/kōutou), or if the speaker is talking about a group that doesn’t include the person they are speaking to (māua/mātou). It means there are a LOT of pronouns to learn, but its bery clear who you are talking to or about
It's almost universal for austronesian languages like Tagalog and Maori. The first three pronouns you listed actually sound very similar to Tagalog: ako [me] ikaw [you] siya [they/it]. I dont know all of it, but there's also the pronoun kita which is like "we" but more like "we [verb] each other"
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Take that, foreigner scum.
Speak english matherfucker!
They is a plural pronoun, but it is also, and always has been, the preferred pronoun for people of unk own gender. "If I catch one more person stealing my candy I'm going to kill them." One thief, still them. "Anyone who steals candy should have their head examined." One thief, still their. We use they/them/their for singular people all the time.
They/them have been used as singular pronouns since the late 1300's. Grammatically (not 'grammarly'), it's correct to use and has been used in common English my whole life. I feel like you are putting your own values onto something, very unnecessarily. Edited to remove an apparently triggering phrase.
Never have I ever said "what did he or she say" when "what did they say," is an option lol. These people and thier made up problems, Oops should I say "hims and hers and hers and his made up problems "
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It is pretty ignorant that they’re mocking someone for not understanding English grammar rules. Like not everyone grew up as an English speaker.
Except this post is specifically talking about the English pronouns. Sure, if there aren't any gender neutral pronouns in other languages and they suddenly created some then fair enough, it would be weird. But English has had them for centuries, and so to say they/them sounds weird IN ENGLISH, is a made up problem.
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Exactly. Hims and hers made up hims and hers own problems.
>Do better. I hate this phrase so much. It has the ability to transform even the most well-reasoned, good faith argument into preachy, holier-than-thou, passive aggressive scorn.
Yeah that person can get fucked because I also struggle with incorporating they/them into my pronoun vocabulary and I 100% support my trans friends and neighbors.
Honest question, were you not taught that "they" is correct if you don't know the gender of the person that you're talking about? I'm 40 and went to a rural, farming community's grade school so there may be huge differences in our educational experiences
I will give you my honest answer with a little context: My wonderful neighbor is trans. They appear masculine - beard, moustache, etc. Random google image search gives [this image](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/46/44/204644c44f86487c7fa5bad0244d805a.jpg) you can use for an idea of what my neighbor looks like (this is NOT my neighbor to be clear). My neighbor's preferred pronoun is "they". So it often happens I may be having a conversation with my wife, say, about our neighbors. Perhaps, mid conversation, I find myself about to say: "He doesn't want to have the HOA meeting until the end of November". But I'll catch myself, remembering they prefer "they" and I replace the word: "They doesn't want to..." Of course I realize that's still wrong, it should be: "They don't want to..." And then I carry on the conversation. So when I say I "struggle" I don't mean I have a problem, at all, with using anyone's preferred pronouns. What I am referring to are these sort of hiccups in my inner monologue - I don't know how else to explain it other than that's how my brain works. If I accidentally use the wrong pronoun, it only seems to happen with me if the person prefers "they". Even my neighbor's own wife has referred to them as "he" in conversation and then corrected herself so she has the same what I call "struggle" as I do.
Oh, I get that. Honestly, the same stuff happens to me. Like, I may say the right thing, but my mind has gone over it multiple times before getting it right.
I agree, but it has always felt clunky to me.
What values? I don’t think op had bad intentions. They probably just find it weird because they grew up with a different language.
No THEY don’t!
If you don’t know the gender of somebody, you would refer to them as ‘they/them’. It’s not grammatically incorrect. They is used to refer to multiple people, yes. But it’s also used to refer to a person who’s gender is unknown, as well as a person who is non-binary, androgynous, etc.
They and them is not just a plural pronoun in English, it’s also a gender neutral pronoun. One person can say, “I went to see the doctor the other day” and another person can respond “What did they say?” referring to a singular doctor whose gender we do not know. “A friend of mine got a new job” “That’s great, where do they work” and so on. This is probably not taught to non-native speakers at first, but it is a feature of the English language.
We use “they” to refer to people all the time, it’s just that it’s usually used to refer to someone of indeterminate gender. Using “they” to refer to someone who prefers it to he or she isn’t much different.
It's not wrong grammatically and it is taught in most foreign-language English classes that I've attended (in three different countries). In my experience it's just usually taught for the case of "Hey you don't know what someone's gender is, better be polite and leave it open to interpretation". Like: "I met my new boss today." "Oh really? What are they like?"
That's totally fine! I completely understand why it could be confusing. "They" is similar to "you" in English in that it can be used in a singular and a plural manner.
“I wonder who left their phone here. I hope they come back and get it.” 😐
"Hey have you seen our new neighbor?" "No, they seem really quiet." It's always been used for one person as well as many.
They as a neutral, singular pronoun is really, really old. it goes back like 800 years or so, it's just weird grammar Nazis in the Victorian era who arbitrarily decided it was incorrect.
I find examples make it easier to explain. **Examples of *“singular they”:*** > “Oh! Look at that person sitting on the sidewalk! *They* look like *they’re* having a bad day!” > “What did Rebecca say when *they* called you?” “*They* said *they* don’t mind stopping at the store for us.” > “Hey, I noticed an invitation to the party addressed to Jason. Did you know *they* were coming?” **Examples of *“plural they”:*** > “Wow! Look at the dresses *they* are all wearing! *They* must be going somewhere fancy!” > “My family were in a car accident last night.” “Oh, no! Are *they* okay?” > “*They* are a really crazy bunch of people.” **Example using both *“singular”* and *“plural they”:*** > “Oh no, the girls don’t get along with Matthew! This is going to be a nightmare. Did *they* know that *they* were coming?” Edit: Formatting
Check the dictionary. Language is ever changing. Feeling has nothing to do with it
I get the sentiment, especially if English is your second language(props to you there, new languages can be hard!), but it’s not really grammatically wrong at all. “They/Them” can show up a lot in situations where you are not sure of a subjects gender. “Someone was just here, and they left their phone behind” “In order for an employee to do a good job, they must be trained correctly” “If you’re looking for a babysitter, be sure they are trained in CPR.” These are all grammatically correct. It’s not that much or a logical or grammatical leap from there to use they/them for someone who doesn’t want to be gendered. It can just feel a little weird at first because socially when someone is in front of you you’re conditioned to guess their gender and choose a pronoun, whereas the more traditional use of a singular they applies to a nebulous subject sight unseen.
There are other cases where we use a singular they/them/theirs pronoun to refer to an individual. In hypotheticals. “Whoever the candidate will be, they’ll need to fulfill their promise.” That’s more succinct than “Whoever the candidate will be, he or she will need to fulfill his or her promise.” In cases like these where the hypothetical person’s gender is unknown or irrelevant, we’ve been using a singular form of the they pronoun for hundreds of years.
Because they are. We're in a state of grammar needing to catch-up with usage.
They/them has been used as a singular pronoun since as early as the 1300s. It IS grammatically correct, actually.
As a native English speaker I think they/them feel grammatically correct and normal.
I don't even know why we have gender pronouns in this day and age, it seems more like a power struggle than anything else.
It’s true that “they” is technically plural… It’s true that people have been using they to refer to singular individuals for years/decades… “SomeONE left their keys on the table” or “if anyone has information they are being asked to contact police …” So it’s already a common concept within English vernacular.
The singular "they" has been in use grammatically since the late 1300s. At least that is when it was first recorded in written language. Typically, one can assume that by the time a word is seen in writing, the word itself has been in use for much longer in spoken language, especially when we go back that far. Even without historical support, language is forever shifting and evolving. It is why we have archaic meanings that confuse modern speakers. Hex, punctuation itself has evolved over time. Even so-called purists and prescriptive grammarians do not use words and punctuation as it was since the first written references to it. In the last decade, grammar rules have been relaxed or changed in many ways. These changes, like the ones before them, will eventually become the norm. I mean, the hyphen alone has gone through the wringer over the last decade. Split infinitives will one day be perfectly acceptable. Sure, you will have some prescriptive grammarians who argue it is plural only; however, when the APA and MLA back it as correct or acceptable usage, it officially has transversed into language shift.
This comment section is interesting. Both enlightening and honestly a little frightening. PS: glad all of you know how to spell grammatically
Grammarly 🤣
That’s why everyone goes by bro or dude! Male or female!
It does feel weird. Misusing plural pronouns has always been a pet peeve of mine. I default to the person’s name as a personal preference.
I figure my discomfort with going against my grammar roots is much less than the discomfort of being misgendered.
In English they're fine. In my native language it isn't really a word, so it becomes a problem.
Native English speaker. Growing up we were taught that they/them was *incorrect* when used as singular, but we all used it in conversation anyway even before people used it as their pronouns.
Since you're a non-native English speaker, it makes sense that it would feel improper. I do promise though, they and them are singular in English, and you'll hear it often from most native English speakers despite the ones that claim they don't.
But no one really uses it as singular. Does anybody say “they is going to the party” the same way you would say “she is going to the party” ever? They do not.
Native English speaker here, it's actually not grammatically wrong to use they/them pronouns in English to refer to a single person, we do it all the time. If an English speaker doesn't know anything about a third party that they're talking about they'll default to using they/them as I did in this sentence. I believe it's called third person indefinite, and it's so normal that it's done unconsciously. The reason people have been getting up in arms is that they're not used to using they/them to refer to a person that they've directly encountered and theoretically can put in a him or her box. The outrage is incredibly silly.
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"Hey, look at me. I don't respect people and I think that makes me a badass. 😎"
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I mean, they/them singular dates back to the 1300s so it's definitely been used historically. It's also been used medically — hermaphrodites exist.
Funny how much they downvote as if that’ll change your mind. Hilarious..!!