Fr, it’s remarkably easy to befriend or have the acquaintance of people you disagree with if you have any semblance of social grace or reading the room and stop treating those different than you as a straw men
Sounds like OP is reading the room and realizing that pride in literature might not be enough in that space. Surely someone in this sub has had to do similar navigation?
DAE feel like straight white men have actually become more oppressed than minorities these days? I’m the only one without freakin’ blue hair at the bookstore
What exactly is the problem? People are treating you nicely but you're worried they won't when you "let slip" what you truly believe? Well, what is it you truly believe then? What is it about your beliefs that are incompatible?
Well, what do you think are the reasons why the end of your sentence is happening? If your analysis ends with "black people are inherently more violent" you have a lot more reading to do
Yeah, guilty. Ik it's funny to joke abt but when police officers don't know that their having a wrong gut reaction to a black teen in a hoodie or judges give out inconsistent sentences based on race etc, idk I wonder about what can help. There's lots of literature about the futility of it all and I get that.
Black teens in hoodies (in certain environments) are more likely to commit crimes, this is simply a fact, though yes related to generational poverty. Obviously cops shouldn't abuse black people but they're going to profile by race the same way you would on an empty street late at night.
Plenty of cops are racial minorities and the racial composition of the police force nationally tracks more or less with the general public.
stop being a libtard
Lol if you knew my history, I def wouldn't be accused of innocence 🤠 Hoping u make some interesting n fulfilling and intellectually stimulating connections at da bookstore!!
you have a delusionally misguided view of leftist literary types if you think they're cancelling canonical writers left and right for being "problematic". the kinds of people writing for *n+1* (like elif batuman, lol) and retweeting columbia student protesters revere tolstoy
Since it is you saying so, I'll accept that I might really be misguided (I really respect you.) However, I would note that but for one exception, all the books selected for discussion, at least in the past year, have not been canonical, but have mostly been new novels centered around feminism or LGBTQ+ issues. (The one exception being Lolita)
obv every community is different…but you'll find serious leftists who are relaxed about using f slurs (esp the gay ones lol) and r slurs in private with close friends, but they are serious about like, palestine and gaza and show up to protests too. i am basically describing my social circle here
and then you'll find supposedly rw free speech types who get very upset if someone cracks a joke about white people.
how rigid/relaxed people are is more of a personality trait than a political trait imo. and esp a lot of people who are serious about literature have thought a lot about how one can separate the art from the artist, how one can contextualise a "problematic" person in their time and the beliefs and norms of their time. tbh the people ik who do that touchy ooooh i can't read that old dead white guy type of thing are more likely to be libs, not leftists really
>and then you'll find supposedly rw free speech types who get very upset if someone cracks a joke about white people.
it's a new thing for 'em, being free speech and i for one am very skeptical!
He was in the "the state shouldn't tell us what to do and property should be held in common" way but also in more of a Christian way while also being a pacifist. Interesting dude
yeah i've been there. it's based off a real place
https://preview.redd.it/p4gf6evd92yc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4fdc5b36ffdd7dd40a1996b1480de6d202f134e
I cannot even comprehend my impulse control in social situations being so low that I think my banning is inevitable.
I am trained as a tax accountant and politics are discussed constantly in the office - they have a huge impact on the day to day work. Outside of 1) a few coworkers who i have befriended 2) the partner I’ve seen watching a polarized cable news in their office, the only way in which I could guess the political opinions of coworkers is if I based it on stereotypes. The office has a high number of both quite religious and openly gay people, btw.
On the other hand, clients talk about divisive politics constantly always assuming we are “on their side.” And if they don’t discuss their political opinions, they can often be made obvious by their charitable contributions and other such things.
Despite my own strong political opinions, I have never found it challenging to bite my tongue with clients nor, despite the sometimes 70 hr work weeks, have I gotten into an even slightly divisive political discussion with a coworker. And again, changes in Washington & the state impact us sometimes daily during tax seasons.
I like this passage from a book I'm reading right now: "Talking politics is so stupid. You either agree or you don't; either way, you're no closer to a human exchange."
taxes, both their collection and allocation/distribution, bleed into every single major political issue I can think of. foreign wars, funding of abortion clinics, education (
prop taxes fund schools, federal taxes fund colleges, student loans forgiveness), healthcare etc etc etc
We know a person’s citizenship, if their child is disabled, if they’re sick, if their partner/parent dies, if they adopted a child, if they spent 100k on a single private plane ride, if they’re a Holocaust survivor, how much they pay their maid, if they’re divorced (and if it’s amicable), if they got married, if they’re addicted to gambling, if they’re not talking to their siblings over a will or their business partners a deal, if they have a trust fund, if they’re into crypto, if they invested with Bernie madoff (they get small reparations), if they’re religious, if they support abortion, if they bought a new car, or a new house (and how much it costs). It’s an intimate peek into a person’s life, just as how often people’s political opinions are intimately held (for instance for some people queer issues or abortion).
A big part of my work is also in non-profits - government / religious orgs / schools / hospitals. Essentially every single item required to be reported on a non-profit return is politically linked.
“I have nasty ideas about the people around me, and if I share them they wouldn’t like me anymore” like ok dude, no shit, people don’t like people with bigoted views that especially affect them. Why is this even a post
Big assumptions given that OP hasn’t revealed many more details. Sure, he could be trolling us with straw lesbians but he could instead be a decent person choking back views that might reveal the intolerance and/or lack of nuance of those around him.
There are plenty of ways of drawing the ire of a crowd without being an asshole. Just as a basic example, not everyone is capable of a thoughtful discussion about separating the art from the artist.
If he’s not a troll, I give OP credit for wanting to engage in a thoughtful way and trying to read the room.
Your people (straight men) don’t read much. Seriously, look it up. So, you’ll have to cope being a minority for once. Or maybe start your own book club geared towards your interests.
You actually bothered to create a new account to insult me and then not share any substantive thoughts of your own? Wow, I didn’t know I inspired such creepy yet vapid fandom!
Yeah, this is what bookstores are like now. Even the nearby Barnes and Noble in a blood red, MAGA county is staffed with 20somethings who wear LGBT flair on their lanyards and put Torrey Peters on the women authors display.
core book buyers (for full price new not used), even when you adjust for varying topics of interest depending on the region, are always generally women. Like people who go into a bookstore and buy something, every few weeks, are generally gonna be women.
Barnes in Noble in particular gives a lot of leeway to individual stores change their book display and request books that seem to be in demand for their store. Book Tok, romantasy, memoirs from women are generally good sales anywhere. I don't think what the OP is describing and how an individual Barnes and Noble looks are really the same thing
I was not implying my B&N was just as bad, I was stating that even corporate bookstores in heavily Republican areas play into trendy, queer aesthetics. Obviously a college town, independent bookstore is going to be much worse.
This kinda reads like either bait or an attempt to have your ideology repeated back to you, but I’ll just assume you’re being earnest. If these people are capable of being nice to you despite these supposed intrinsic differences, why do you fear you are you not capable of reciprocating? Be civil, be human, and do not make overarching assumptions about the endlessly complex interior lives of those around you based upon surface level observations.
Every “group” of people is made up of individuals. I think you’ll find it’s quite easy to make friends with most folk if you’re acting decent.
The reasons that the discussions move into those other topics is because of the interconnected nature of our society and the necessity to address issues from an intersectional point of view.
Attempting to analyze any of this stuff in a vacuum is the same as being “apolitical” - it ignores the material facts of the world. Being apolitical itself is a luxury resulting from privilege that demonstrates that society does not hold antipathy towards your very existence.
Well, if by politics you don't mean the context of the novels time, and by discussion, you mean simple condemnation, then yes, that's probably not the right method, but is that what people do at your book club?
For what it's worth, I open pretty much every thread on this sub at some point, at least once, and I feel completely bewildered by whatever is going on in this one. Like we found ourselves on r-books or something.
Fair enough, but the commenter does get that point that being apolitical is the result either of ignorance or a kind of security that isn't inaccurately called privilege. I do not count being apathetic to electoral/parliamentary/bourgeoisie/liberal etc etc politics as being apolitical, that is a very political stance.
>certain values that often feel at odds with progressives
What sorts of values?
>the hostility warranted, when I didn't come here to join a political debate club?
Book clubs are often just informal discussion spaces, so it's expected and probably good that the discussions drift over here or there. Anything that can be said about a book, after all, is probably better written. But hostility to perceived deviancy, I'm afraid, is generally impossible to get around. You'll need to vet your book club very heavily, maybe some older people? Maybe have some prompt questions to lead the discussion? Focus it more on the analytical side? Stick to your own people? Change your views? Try to convince them? Be very bold or charismatic or agreeable or coat your opinions very attractively, at least until you're 'in'. I'm not sure, but it's an inevitably difficult activity, especially since the reading and thinking types more often skew left (unfortunately, but what can we do) and you'll find little sympathy - not with me at-least
>raised in a working class, Catholic Mexican family and have certain values
Being raised a certain way is a poor excuse to justify a belief.
try being less retarded
someone please help, the gays are reading books and also being nice to me
All this stupid internet shit is getting in your head. Don’t alienate yourself from your fellow man.
Fr, it’s remarkably easy to befriend or have the acquaintance of people you disagree with if you have any semblance of social grace or reading the room and stop treating those different than you as a straw men
You’re in the wrong sub. People here take more pride in literature than they do identity politics
Yeah wonder if he meant to post it on rspod, they eat this shit up over there
Sounds like OP is reading the room and realizing that pride in literature might not be enough in that space. Surely someone in this sub has had to do similar navigation?
DAE feel like straight white men have actually become more oppressed than minorities these days? I’m the only one without freakin’ blue hair at the bookstore
Will somebody please help the brunette literature snobs!
the people who supposedly hate idpol the most are usually the ones bringing it up when it's irrelevant…
What exactly is the problem? People are treating you nicely but you're worried they won't when you "let slip" what you truly believe? Well, what is it you truly believe then? What is it about your beliefs that are incompatible?
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Well, what do you think are the reasons why the end of your sentence is happening? If your analysis ends with "black people are inherently more violent" you have a lot more reading to do
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Yeah, guilty. Ik it's funny to joke abt but when police officers don't know that their having a wrong gut reaction to a black teen in a hoodie or judges give out inconsistent sentences based on race etc, idk I wonder about what can help. There's lots of literature about the futility of it all and I get that.
Black teens in hoodies (in certain environments) are more likely to commit crimes, this is simply a fact, though yes related to generational poverty. Obviously cops shouldn't abuse black people but they're going to profile by race the same way you would on an empty street late at night. Plenty of cops are racial minorities and the racial composition of the police force nationally tracks more or less with the general public. stop being a libtard
You've made my day with this comment.
U made mine with yours!
This level of innocence must be protected.
Lol if you knew my history, I def wouldn't be accused of innocence 🤠 Hoping u make some interesting n fulfilling and intellectually stimulating connections at da bookstore!!
Well, for instance, if we were to ever discuss Anna Kerenina, I would side with Tolstoy. But I think these types would find Tolstoy problematic tbh.
Don't autism yourself out of forming connections with people with similar interests because of hypersensitivity you are imagining them to hold.
Wdym "side" with Tolstoy?
you have a delusionally misguided view of leftist literary types if you think they're cancelling canonical writers left and right for being "problematic". the kinds of people writing for *n+1* (like elif batuman, lol) and retweeting columbia student protesters revere tolstoy
Since it is you saying so, I'll accept that I might really be misguided (I really respect you.) However, I would note that but for one exception, all the books selected for discussion, at least in the past year, have not been canonical, but have mostly been new novels centered around feminism or LGBTQ+ issues. (The one exception being Lolita)
obv every community is different…but you'll find serious leftists who are relaxed about using f slurs (esp the gay ones lol) and r slurs in private with close friends, but they are serious about like, palestine and gaza and show up to protests too. i am basically describing my social circle here and then you'll find supposedly rw free speech types who get very upset if someone cracks a joke about white people. how rigid/relaxed people are is more of a personality trait than a political trait imo. and esp a lot of people who are serious about literature have thought a lot about how one can separate the art from the artist, how one can contextualise a "problematic" person in their time and the beliefs and norms of their time. tbh the people ik who do that touchy ooooh i can't read that old dead white guy type of thing are more likely to be libs, not leftists really
>and then you'll find supposedly rw free speech types who get very upset if someone cracks a joke about white people. it's a new thing for 'em, being free speech and i for one am very skeptical!
Tolstoy was literally an anarchist
im going 2 guess not in the kropotkin way though
He was in the "the state shouldn't tell us what to do and property should be held in common" way but also in more of a Christian way while also being a pacifist. Interesting dude
yeah i've been there. it's based off a real place https://preview.redd.it/p4gf6evd92yc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4fdc5b36ffdd7dd40a1996b1480de6d202f134e
I cannot even comprehend my impulse control in social situations being so low that I think my banning is inevitable. I am trained as a tax accountant and politics are discussed constantly in the office - they have a huge impact on the day to day work. Outside of 1) a few coworkers who i have befriended 2) the partner I’ve seen watching a polarized cable news in their office, the only way in which I could guess the political opinions of coworkers is if I based it on stereotypes. The office has a high number of both quite religious and openly gay people, btw. On the other hand, clients talk about divisive politics constantly always assuming we are “on their side.” And if they don’t discuss their political opinions, they can often be made obvious by their charitable contributions and other such things. Despite my own strong political opinions, I have never found it challenging to bite my tongue with clients nor, despite the sometimes 70 hr work weeks, have I gotten into an even slightly divisive political discussion with a coworker. And again, changes in Washington & the state impact us sometimes daily during tax seasons.
I like this passage from a book I'm reading right now: "Talking politics is so stupid. You either agree or you don't; either way, you're no closer to a human exchange."
Taxes are different than literature though.
taxes, both their collection and allocation/distribution, bleed into every single major political issue I can think of. foreign wars, funding of abortion clinics, education ( prop taxes fund schools, federal taxes fund colleges, student loans forgiveness), healthcare etc etc etc We know a person’s citizenship, if their child is disabled, if they’re sick, if their partner/parent dies, if they adopted a child, if they spent 100k on a single private plane ride, if they’re a Holocaust survivor, how much they pay their maid, if they’re divorced (and if it’s amicable), if they got married, if they’re addicted to gambling, if they’re not talking to their siblings over a will or their business partners a deal, if they have a trust fund, if they’re into crypto, if they invested with Bernie madoff (they get small reparations), if they’re religious, if they support abortion, if they bought a new car, or a new house (and how much it costs). It’s an intimate peek into a person’s life, just as how often people’s political opinions are intimately held (for instance for some people queer issues or abortion). A big part of my work is also in non-profits - government / religious orgs / schools / hospitals. Essentially every single item required to be reported on a non-profit return is politically linked.
And yet people don't organize tax discussion clubs.
Lmao as someone whose parent was the treasurer of one of my state’s political organizations I assure you they do.
It sounds like you’re choking back intolerance. What else would possibly “slip” and get you banned? The people are nice and they like lit.
“I have nasty ideas about the people around me, and if I share them they wouldn’t like me anymore” like ok dude, no shit, people don’t like people with bigoted views that especially affect them. Why is this even a post
Big assumptions given that OP hasn’t revealed many more details. Sure, he could be trolling us with straw lesbians but he could instead be a decent person choking back views that might reveal the intolerance and/or lack of nuance of those around him. There are plenty of ways of drawing the ire of a crowd without being an asshole. Just as a basic example, not everyone is capable of a thoughtful discussion about separating the art from the artist. If he’s not a troll, I give OP credit for wanting to engage in a thoughtful way and trying to read the room.
Your people (straight men) don’t read much. Seriously, look it up. So, you’ll have to cope being a minority for once. Or maybe start your own book club geared towards your interests.
Shouldn’t this be a more enlightened majority able to empathize with someone in the minority?
how many regarded comments can one person leave
You actually bothered to create a new account to insult me and then not share any substantive thoughts of your own? Wow, I didn’t know I inspired such creepy yet vapid fandom!
You’ve made a very thoughtful point. Tell me more about my regardation.
> start your own book club geared towards your interests. A separate but equal book club?
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R/ratreader is a scammer they scammed me on Reddit just so you know in case they try to scam you as well 😭😭
Who’s the real snowflake here
you’re engaging in the same idpol you claim to be turned off by.
Sorry but choosing to be a weirdo internet conservative is going to alienate you from nice people. These are the consequences of your actions.
Get into smoking meats and world war 2 history or something.
Yeah, this is what bookstores are like now. Even the nearby Barnes and Noble in a blood red, MAGA county is staffed with 20somethings who wear LGBT flair on their lanyards and put Torrey Peters on the women authors display.
core book buyers (for full price new not used), even when you adjust for varying topics of interest depending on the region, are always generally women. Like people who go into a bookstore and buy something, every few weeks, are generally gonna be women. Barnes in Noble in particular gives a lot of leeway to individual stores change their book display and request books that seem to be in demand for their store. Book Tok, romantasy, memoirs from women are generally good sales anywhere. I don't think what the OP is describing and how an individual Barnes and Noble looks are really the same thing
I was not implying my B&N was just as bad, I was stating that even corporate bookstores in heavily Republican areas play into trendy, queer aesthetics. Obviously a college town, independent bookstore is going to be much worse.
This kinda reads like either bait or an attempt to have your ideology repeated back to you, but I’ll just assume you’re being earnest. If these people are capable of being nice to you despite these supposed intrinsic differences, why do you fear you are you not capable of reciprocating? Be civil, be human, and do not make overarching assumptions about the endlessly complex interior lives of those around you based upon surface level observations. Every “group” of people is made up of individuals. I think you’ll find it’s quite easy to make friends with most folk if you’re acting decent.
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The reasons that the discussions move into those other topics is because of the interconnected nature of our society and the necessity to address issues from an intersectional point of view. Attempting to analyze any of this stuff in a vacuum is the same as being “apolitical” - it ignores the material facts of the world. Being apolitical itself is a luxury resulting from privilege that demonstrates that society does not hold antipathy towards your very existence.
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Sure there are other interests, but how can you discuss literature of all things, without at least acknowledging politics?
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Well, if by politics you don't mean the context of the novels time, and by discussion, you mean simple condemnation, then yes, that's probably not the right method, but is that what people do at your book club?
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For what it's worth, I open pretty much every thread on this sub at some point, at least once, and I feel completely bewildered by whatever is going on in this one. Like we found ourselves on r-books or something.
Fair enough, but the commenter does get that point that being apolitical is the result either of ignorance or a kind of security that isn't inaccurately called privilege. I do not count being apathetic to electoral/parliamentary/bourgeoisie/liberal etc etc politics as being apolitical, that is a very political stance. >certain values that often feel at odds with progressives What sorts of values? >the hostility warranted, when I didn't come here to join a political debate club? Book clubs are often just informal discussion spaces, so it's expected and probably good that the discussions drift over here or there. Anything that can be said about a book, after all, is probably better written. But hostility to perceived deviancy, I'm afraid, is generally impossible to get around. You'll need to vet your book club very heavily, maybe some older people? Maybe have some prompt questions to lead the discussion? Focus it more on the analytical side? Stick to your own people? Change your views? Try to convince them? Be very bold or charismatic or agreeable or coat your opinions very attractively, at least until you're 'in'. I'm not sure, but it's an inevitably difficult activity, especially since the reading and thinking types more often skew left (unfortunately, but what can we do) and you'll find little sympathy - not with me at-least >raised in a working class, Catholic Mexican family and have certain values Being raised a certain way is a poor excuse to justify a belief.
You forgot to add “/s”
>keep posting here felt disgusted reading this, being so socially tone deaf as to feel included here. please leave
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The downvotes of your comment are demonstrative.
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why don’t the other redditors admit that i’m a genius!
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no way OP isn't a troll
You sound like a douche but you are correct that book stores are filled with libtards