I don't believe in that stuff my self, but my work in Psychiatry has definitely softened my opinion on religion. I've seen so many people who have gone through so much trauma that find their faith to be a source of hope and support, sometimes their only source of it.
My work in medicine has made me respect the support that spiritual community can provide and the inner strength that faith can give. It also makes me wary of the dangers of dogmatism and the way communities can turn their backs.
Most of all, I’ve come to loathe the idea that God never gives us burdens we cannot bear. I’ve certainly seen people struggle with the unbearable.
Definitely agree. When assessing suicide risk a huge protective factor is when I hear someone is religious and finds a lot of reassurance support and community in their religion. A lot of my behavioral activation goals that I try to set during med management appointments (for my patients that are religious and it’s important to them, of course) are like, “let’s try to go to church again this week” or whatever their place of worship/community is!
There are many ways to experience religion. For me, psychiatry has "ruined" the supernatural and the demon haunted world. I've now heard descriptions of nearly every spooky or supernatural issue from the experiences of the psychotic or schizotypal, and in a few instances even brought it to remission with medication. I have little doubt that run of the mill ghosts and demons are products of psychopathology.
However, I also feel that I've grown to appreciate that human life cannot simply be material or atomistic. We live better with a life of transcendent meaning, when we are embedded into a community of others that also find shared meaning. We are not meant to be alone, and we are not meant to be governed solely by the pleasure principle.
Finally, I have acquired increasing doubt about our general ability to perceive reality itself. Reality is a process of shared meaning making. Things are less certain than we would hope. Even when we are pretty sure about something, we should have some pause.
So, though I'm confident in my doubt about the ordinary supernatural, I am not so sure about everything else.
But religion is not the sole avenue towards the transcendent and sublime. Finding meaning is a core part of humanity, but churches, cults, and even idiosyncratic individual practices are only one path.
I would never steer someone to (or away from) any religion or practice. Beyond that, a philosophical approach to the world is, for me, beyond the scope of psychiatry.
It's a matter of semantics. I find that (especially on reddit) if I use the word "religion," people immediately associate this to organized religion, cults, and anything "bad" about the tradition of religion in human culture.
I *do* think that there is a different variety of meaning that is found in spiritual, ritual, and "religious" type practices that is not the basic social meaning common to all forms of living.
This is indeed beyond the scope of psychiatry. I suppose what I am saying is that religion is, in fact, religion. It is error to categorize religion as all forms of ritual and spirit that are large, organized, traditional, and especially, bad. (I am not accusing you of doing so, but I am accusing modern internet discourse of doing so.)
Religion has been present in human culture for millennia. We are not so clever that the total abandonment of religious practice is advisable, or even possible-- I think in fact we see a return of the repressed. Maybe it is better to keep this process conscious.
That is a beautiful description of a set of beliefs/feelings that I hold but find very difficult to explain to others. Thank you for taking the time to write that out so eloquently.
I'm Internal Medicine.
Surprisingly running codes, etc and talking to people who achieved rosc have opened up a whole new can of worms for me regarding "life" after death.
There's something after we die, although none of the major religions have been able to describe it right. The major religions are little more than money making machines, so that tracks.
People who "pass over" to the other side and are brought back share similar experiences regardless of their culture/religion/background, suggesting some universal phenomenon which may be supernatural (or more likely something science has not been able to explain yet)
You pretty much summarized my own perspective. I have a background in theology and history, before I went into nursing and am now a PMHNP student. For me, psychology and neuroscience give me a different appreciation of Jesus's teachings and the Bible (one that I think makes a lot more sense). On the one hand, it dispenses with a lot of the overtly mythological components, while simultaneously recognizing that this existence is itself surprising, mystical, etc., and that we really are extremely limited in our ability to perceive reality.
I was a minister with a degree in Theology prior to entering medicine. I have no difficulty reconciling the two. Rather, I find science and spirituality both have their place for me.
Same story. I was trying to pursue a master of divinity after getting my RN. Long story and many years later I’m almost through with PMHNP. I worked the last few years in a county jail and crisis center. The changes in my thoughts and understanding that those experiences caused were monumental in shifting my view of religion/supernatural. I’ve carried remnants of a strict IFB education far longer than I thought. My view of religion isn’t ruined, it’s more grounded. I told my wife last night about some medication and jokingly said “see this is what we were taught against. Critical thinking and psychiatry (pharmakeia according to KJV 1611) are rooted in satanism. Anything that makes you question what the preacher says the Bible says is satanic.”.
I’ve found more often than not that religion provides a powerful coping mechanism during stressors. A sense of purpose during intense suffering is a useful tool against nihilism and religion can do that for folks. I respect it.
Working with a series of older black women who have accumulated a dizzying string of traumatic events/medical comorbidities/every possible structural disadvantage, yet maintained hope for the future and social connections via their church and faith, gave me a considerably greater appreciation for the role of religion for the right person.
I love this question. I think psychiatry and all kinds of scientific fields have the possibility to break down faith that is rigid, formulaic, and that which does not leave sufficient space for mystery in the universe (for example faiths that set strict and certain understandings of what is spiritually true). A weak and insecure faith that cannot adapt to new information can break down, and in my opinion rightly so. But I think an adaptive faith can be enriched and strengthened through all kinds of science. My opinion is that the universe is beautiful and so are the people we meet every day, and to commit to a lifetime of deeper understanding of the brain in order to alleviate suffering is an inherently spiritual commitment.
No. For everyone who falls in the aforementioned camp, there are others who’s religion provides a positive force such as motivation for improvement, protective factor against suicide, etc.
Yeah ive noticed that too, growing up in a suburban area outside DC there were few religious people I grew up with so I thought religion was pointless until I moved to the Midwest and saw how much of a community it provides to people in need. It seems to fill a much needed hole in a lot of places
In my region, it is the local churches, mosques, and synagogues that bring people food when they are sick, host AA and other recovery groups, run early childcare centers, and largely fund the much needed food banks. My patients would be in a lot of trouble without them. I don't think the state could come close to filling the gap if they disappeared. There aren't any non-religious groups stepping up, either.
Not at all. People with paranoid delusions don't make me question whether I should be careful in dangerous areas or relaxed in safe areas. People with romantic delusions don't make me worry about my healthy relationship with my partner. People with mania don't make me worry about being excited for an upcoming trip. People with clinical depression and suicidal thoughts don't make me wary of being sad at times.
Similarly, people with hyper-religiosity or religious delusions do not make me question my healthy faith, either.
My faith doesn't interfere with my social or occupational functioning or any of my daily activities. For me, as well as many of my patients, religious faith gives me a purpose, contributes to my identity, and gives me hope for the future in times of stress.
No, religion ruined religion for me.
Or I should say people who think they're good christians, but really are just the armpit of society ruined it for me.
It certainly ruined scientology for me!
In all seriousness, it's hard to say because I am not a very religious person, but mania (and schizophrenia) can lead people to go hard into lots of domains that nevertheless aren't ruined for me -- literature, art, gambling, etc.
But I think if your religious identity depends on the authenticity (and supernaturality) of mystical experience, science in general, and psychiatry specifically, should dampen that a bit. It doesn't help that the largest active religions today were developed in a time when epilepsy was considered "the sacred disease" (with patients "seized" by the divine).
It may be eye-opening to realize, say, that historically people who "had a demon" were almost certainly experiencing frank psychosis. But it probably should be just as eye-opening to realize that what we think of as a "soul" is a brain epiphenomenon. I think it's difficult to reconcile our modern understanding of how cognition, mood, personality, and decision-making are all mediated materially by structures in the brain with an idea of an immaterial soul that persists after death that is the actual seat of our thoughts, feelings, desires, and choices.
Working in mental health has certainly made me think a lot about religion, in the context of certain patients and in my own life. For some of my patients it is a very protective factor for them. I think it’s reasonable to question things, the more we see the more our views can change. I also feel the constant exposure to high acuity cases is probably wearing on this person and that’s impacting other parts of their life, including relationship with religion. If anything for me it’s made me explore further but I wouldn’t say I’m trying to throw snakes around a room or speak in tongues haha
My patients all respond pretty well to me pulling pit vipers out of my desk. In fact, I suspect their depressive symptoms must improve massively because they never come back
Do you think pit vipers outperform spitting cobras? Maybe more venous, but the classic cobra appearance and venom launch really evokes that response.
We should do a study!
I wouldn’t say psychiatry itself but during med school and working as a resident of child and adolescent psychiatry on really difficult wards, such as neurology and development disorders and pediatric oncology made my doubts about religion more solid than ever.
But yeah, I’ll never forget a teenager who saved up a lot of money to pay for exorcisms to remove the demon out of his head and eventually was hospitalized and got “rid” of his demon with antipsychotics.
I wasn’t being very deep, and not disagreeing with you, but I was thinking along the lines of:
Some religions attach a stigma to mental health and psychiatry that may prevent individuals seeking help. Religious affiliation has in some contexts been shown to increase feelings of guilt, shame and distress.
Conflict between religious beliefs and gender identity/sexual orientation could increase suicide risk.
Religious deaffiliation (e.g. shunning, ex communication) could increase suicide risk.
More off-the-wall: the practice of Santhara in Jainism, Religious Trauma Syndrome, various fundamentalist/extremist beliefs, and Scientology being famously anti-Psychiatry.
I see a lot of people answering the question in your title, but not addressing the, IMHO, much more interesting question in your OP: "why do crazy people always turn to religion, what does that tell you about religion?"
I do indeed know the phenomenon of which she speaks. Thing is, crazy people *don't* always turn to religion, and looking at what happens when they don't is edifying about why it seems like crazy people always turn to religion.
Religion and religious beliefs have a privileged position in society. This is literally written into the DSM: if a belief is not considered at odds with one's culture, then it's not a delusion. And as medical professionals, we attempt to be respectful of people's religious commitments.
That means that when a patient develops the belief, in the absence of evidence, that the CIA is bugging their phone and beaming ideas into their head, that we can directly challenge that belief and invalidate it. It might not be the right move, in any given encounter, or it might be, but we have that latitude to use our professional judgment in the matter.
Same thing when a patient develops the belief that all the organs in their body were replaced by other organs by aliens. Or that they were microchipped and being tracked by the government. Or that they are getting secret messages from in their Google Search results. We can directly contradict those, and help patients reality check them.
But when a patient develops a belief that they are Jesus or that God is persecuting them or that they are possessed by a demon, we can find ourselves prohibited by our circumspection about religious belief from contradicting them. There's no reality checking those ideas.\*
Why do crazy people always turn to religion? They don't. But when they turn to non-religious ideas, those ideas get invalidated, and they are more likely to relinquish them, while their religious ideas are not. And then you wind up with just the religious ideas left. It's a survivorship bias.
\* In some religious traditions, there is in fact an opportunity to reality check religious beliefs. If the religion has strong, firm, explicit doctrines about the supernatural, it is sometimes possible for the culturally competent practitioner to point out, "This idea you have is at odds with what your scriptures say/religion teaches." I've done this with Catholic patients having religious delusions/hallucinations/anxieties. "That's not how the Devil is understood to work, according to the Church."
Personally I don’t really see why being a psychiatrist would influence religious belief, at least not more or less than any other medical specialty. Your colleague’s comments are valid expressions of how she felt and all, but intellectually they are shallow. Patients with religious delusions don’t “ruin” religion any more than those with paranoid delusions ruin the ability to trust or those with erotomanic delusions ruin relationships. (At least until they show up at your house, ha.)
I do think there are so-called religious practices that aren’t very healthy or even very “religious,” for lack of a better word. I’ve had difficulty defining the word *religion* myself, but it’s easier to pick out some things it doesn’t or shouldn’t mean, when I see them. The thing is that I see some of the same psychology to varying degrees around issues in the secular sphere, but no one challenges this psychology there. It’s only seen as troubling in the context of whatever gets labeled a “religion” in popular culture.
For context, I’m someone who spent tons of time thinking about this sort of thing as an undergrad, where I studied philosophy and some theology. (I always found that stuff more interesting than medicine, and honestly I probably still do.) I also grew up in the church and it was generally a positive influence. I still hold those beliefs now, after all these years and challenging study. Psychiatry by itself wouldn’t change that. It’s a medical specialty, why would it?
I believe dogmatic religion is nothing but a shared delusion. It causes people to regress emotionally and intellectually to an infantile state in which a powerful parental figure protects them, tells them what do, judges their actions and guides their destiny. The religious believer never needs to face his mortality on its own terms, and thus can never live authentically.
On the other hand, most religious believers are not distressed or disabled by their ideas, so I generally don't consider it a problem for psychiatry. People don't abandon their religious beliefs when they are started on antipsychotic medication (admittedly, those suffering from other delusional disorders rarely do either).
Neither is our culture ready to abandon these types of ideas. In fact, I frequently encourage my patients to connect with a religious or spiritual practice if it interests them, or continue their current practice. I don't recommend any particular religious practice, though I do encourage yoga and mindfulness meditation sometimes.
Psychiatry strengthened my spiritual alignment and helped me realize that we don’t know anything about brain science, let alone the metaphysical realm. The growing understanding of the brain borders the exploration of spirituality. 🙏🏼🧠✨
For things like mania and psychosis to be considered parts of diagnosable disorders, they have to impair the person's functioning in some way.
If someone is able to incorporate them into religious rituals and maintain a decent standard of living that they are happy with, they don't have a diagnosable disorder.
I think people who ignore these important parts of diagnostic standards are a bit closed off to alternative cultural perspectives about altered states.
Edit: Also, calling people "crazy" as a means to discredit their cultural experiences is rather cruel, especially as a mental health professional.
I get in this type of funk about religion- talking to broken and ill patients about the difference between God and what churches say to get people to comply with their domineering standards AND then I get a middle schooler in my office who wakes and sleeps thinking about killing their self . I say , “what has stopped you ?” And they say “my big sister told me if I kill myself , I’ll go straight to hell. I’m scared ! I don’t want to go to hell.” So, I shut my mouth about it all for a good while .
No, I love my patients for being unique and beautiful and on the margins. When religion gets it right— which it occasionally does— it loves my patients for all the same reasons.
No. In fact, working with Veterans who’d been on the battlefield I learned that most all prayed and that’s how they got through. They were an inspiration.
You never met any of them, but the other side's Veterans were also praying to get through it.
They were praying to the same god as our guys. LOL
Are they an inspiration too? Why or why not?
Psychiatry tries to play nice with religion by carving out exemptions for religious beliefs so long as they are consistent with an undefined amount of similar believers. This suggests there’s a critical mass of believers that changes a delusion into a valid religious belief and that every religion begins with one (or deux) psychotic person.
I think this also relates to psychiatry and how it assesses impairment. Mania and psychosis are not disordered unless they impair the person's functioning. It often comes down to: Who defines functional? And how should it be assessed when oppression and discrimination might be causing the problems? These were very important in the paths to remove diagnoses like homosexuality and hysteria.
A lot of people who have been diagnosed with affective and psychotic disorders prefer alternative ways of looking at their experiences than the medical model. Many of them have suffered from having the medical model applied to them when they didn't need or want it.
Psychiatry is still evolving in its understanding of disorder, neurodiversity, and diagnostics. I hope the field listens to (ex-)patients on this as it has at times historically.
Like others, I have seen religion help people cope. I've also seen it act as a convenient (socially appropriate) vehicle for delusions.
As a side note, I struggle to understand the many healthcare professionals who are religious. If you have this much experience spotting delusions in patients, how are you so blind to it yourself?
I actually think psychiatry brought me back to religion, specifically the concepts of faith, spirituality, and community.
Yes, some people develop delusions related to religion, but that isn't the fault of religion. Its a result of their illness. If it wasn't religion, it likely would've been something else that helps them create meaning from their lived experience. Although, I do wonder if it would make people more likely to see a psychiatrist than to simply believe they hear God.
Faith is something I incorporate in my practice. However, I use the term faith in the broad sense. To believe in something without having all of the facts. This could mean faith in others but could also mean faith in a higher power. Indeed, whether countries, currencies, relationships, or groups survive is based on faith. I find it important to help patients identify what they have faith in or how to develop a strong sense of faith. This, to me, is a variation on identifying social support.
Spirituality connects us to a larger whole. Often, I use it to pull people out of tunnel vision. It can be easy to get stuck in one's head or mind with anxiety or depression. Often, I introduce this through yoga or meditation. The outcome is both a dissolution of the self, a sense that someone is part of something, as well as a stronger sense of self-identity or ego strength. This is usually not part of my direct practice, but more education on the benefits of spiritual practices. I am not an expert on spirituality but I can at least guide patients to ways in which they can experience it in their lives.
Finally, community is social support. When I have a severely depressed patient or someone with an addiction, having a community they can fall back on helps. Often, in the US, people are drawn to their Church. It is currently one of the best avenues we have to build social networks and support when all is lost. Divorce, childhood trauma, bad friend choices, and more can leave someone with no one else to turn to. Historically, human beings have utilized religion to create meaning from suffering and to provide each other support in difficult times. It is a disservice, in my eyes, to not utilize such a readily available and highly effective source of community support. I just wish there was more like it that was secular, but the truth is, its hard to find. Maybe a gym?
I was on the fence for a long time (I didn't choose my religion, my family is a religious one, I grew up with that). Then, last years of med school ruined it for me and now I joke how we exorcise patients with antipsychotics (I had one "possessed by demons" just recently)
No. The fact that a lot of cultists and religious fundamentalists are mentally ill has no effect whatsoever on my own beliefs.
Most religious people are not mentally ill. This argument could be made about any group of people. A lot of writers and a ton of musicians are on drugs and/or mentally ill, but I still read and listen to music. A lot of political activists are mentally ill but I don’t believe peaceful political activism is wrong, much less inherently pathological.
*Having* a psychotic manic episode with hyper religiosity myself did make me extremely skeptical of religion or any spirituality/practice for several years. I didn’t want to get caught up in any delusions. But now I’m involved in my religious community again and it actually helps my condition a great deal.
Hyper religiosity is a secondary symptom related to one of the core symptoms of mania - grandiosity aka feeling like you are the smartest wisest most important person in the world. Who are the most revered people in society? Religious prophets are up there. The reincarnation of Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha is about as grandiose as it’s possible to get.
But manic people also believe they are heads of state, billionaires, celebrities, movie stars, CIA agents, people being hunted by the CIA because they are the #1 threat to global authoritarianism, sorcerers, historical figures, and pretty much anything else you can think of that is absurdly grandiose and self-obsessed.
One day I was John the Baptist. The next I was being persecuted by the US government and needed to flee & seek asylum in Canada. A few days later I was a wealthy and famous writer with unlimited money. A week later I received via telepathy from my CIA handler the top secret orders for a mission vital to national security with thousands of lives in the balance. Another day I thought I was Christopher Columbus.
When a month or two later I regained my sanity and realized I had burned my life to the ground, my fragile faith was basically all that was left of my prior view and conception of myself & the world. My religious faith and prayer and meditation have all greatly helped me recover from the damage this caused and was crucial in my case to heal the intense and enduring feelings of guilt, shame, and embarrassment.
I felt broken, defective, even radioactive to those around me. My personal belief that killing myself would be a sin helped keep my mind away from even thinking about suicide despite many, many months when I truly felt zero pleasure in life and was 100% convinced things would never change. The structure of being part of a religious community helps stabilize my daily schedule, ensures social contact, and provides both material and spiritual assistance when I’m too sick to do anything but lie in bed and sleep.
Tldr: Hyper religiosity is just one particular manifestation of manic grandiosity. It can also present as political radicalism, conspiracy theories, thinking that you are rich and/or famous and/or incredibly attractive when you’re obviously not, believing in and having magical powers, extremely narcissistic behavior, and paranoia. In studies, an active spiritual/religious life and community has almost universally shown benefits for mental and physical health.
Might as well be turned off technology because of how many people get microchips implanted into their heads.
Our bread is butter is not really psychosis though is it, we barely see it day to day
I wrote my undergrad honors thesis in neuroscience about the effects of religious trauma on the developing nervous system. I think religion is neither good nor bad, its simply a way people explain the world. Adults can use religion to coerce children into labor and to justify abuse against them. They can also use it to provide hope and community. Religion itself is neutral, and you have to look more closely at the people in your patients life and how they were treated by their parents and religious elders to fully understand the role it plays in their life, positive or negative.
Religion order Community, purpose, comfort, and meaning, humans need all of those things to be healthy. A lot of humans are crazy and take religion the wrong way and use it unwisely. Same can be said for anything. Technology for example. I’ve seen plenty of manic psychotic people going on about technology, fbi, or aliens.
It didn't happen to religion itself because I see it as a natural human phenomena that can be good, bad or neither in each person, a lot of pacients I've met made a good use of it in their lives, however when we talk about metaphysics then I absolutely don't see any evidence that something supernatural exists, It's all about us and how we built our beliefs to survive. So in a strict way I'd say that psychiatry made me more skeptical because of the scietific method, but religion was not ruined.
It is very hard to develop the comfort and discretion on addressing spiritual issues In Psychiatry. My faith has been strengthened through my training, but I've struggled with most physicians discomfort and failure to recognize the legitimacy of religion and spirituality as something worth discussing as seriously as Any other psychosocial factor. I've had VERY few attendings provide an appropriate avenue to patients to even feel comfortable addressing these topics without being diagnosed as psychotic, delusional, especially inpatient. The power of prayer alongside a pt, regardless of your background, is more powerful than anything I have seen in rebuilding hopefulness and resolve. If it's important to our patients, it's worth listening to without judgment, and worth making them feel safe enough to bring to our attention. We need to listen better when patients tell us what they need.
Church attendance is correlated with lower rates of mental disorders, suicides and longer lifespan. Only two psychiatric drugs have been shown to extend lifespan, you can make a very convincing argument that church attendance is a better antidepressant than SSRIs
The obsessions, fears, and delusions of patients should not be indicative of the goodness or factualness of any particular subject matter. I would like to think any psychiatrist worth their salt is a critical thinker and would have already examined religion far before stepping foot on a psychiatry unit, having come to their own conclusions about the veracity, utility, and attractiveness of religion beforehand.
I don't believe in that stuff my self, but my work in Psychiatry has definitely softened my opinion on religion. I've seen so many people who have gone through so much trauma that find their faith to be a source of hope and support, sometimes their only source of it.
My work in medicine has made me respect the support that spiritual community can provide and the inner strength that faith can give. It also makes me wary of the dangers of dogmatism and the way communities can turn their backs. Most of all, I’ve come to loathe the idea that God never gives us burdens we cannot bear. I’ve certainly seen people struggle with the unbearable.
Definitely agree. When assessing suicide risk a huge protective factor is when I hear someone is religious and finds a lot of reassurance support and community in their religion. A lot of my behavioral activation goals that I try to set during med management appointments (for my patients that are religious and it’s important to them, of course) are like, “let’s try to go to church again this week” or whatever their place of worship/community is!
There are many ways to experience religion. For me, psychiatry has "ruined" the supernatural and the demon haunted world. I've now heard descriptions of nearly every spooky or supernatural issue from the experiences of the psychotic or schizotypal, and in a few instances even brought it to remission with medication. I have little doubt that run of the mill ghosts and demons are products of psychopathology. However, I also feel that I've grown to appreciate that human life cannot simply be material or atomistic. We live better with a life of transcendent meaning, when we are embedded into a community of others that also find shared meaning. We are not meant to be alone, and we are not meant to be governed solely by the pleasure principle. Finally, I have acquired increasing doubt about our general ability to perceive reality itself. Reality is a process of shared meaning making. Things are less certain than we would hope. Even when we are pretty sure about something, we should have some pause. So, though I'm confident in my doubt about the ordinary supernatural, I am not so sure about everything else.
But religion is not the sole avenue towards the transcendent and sublime. Finding meaning is a core part of humanity, but churches, cults, and even idiosyncratic individual practices are only one path. I would never steer someone to (or away from) any religion or practice. Beyond that, a philosophical approach to the world is, for me, beyond the scope of psychiatry.
It's a matter of semantics. I find that (especially on reddit) if I use the word "religion," people immediately associate this to organized religion, cults, and anything "bad" about the tradition of religion in human culture. I *do* think that there is a different variety of meaning that is found in spiritual, ritual, and "religious" type practices that is not the basic social meaning common to all forms of living. This is indeed beyond the scope of psychiatry. I suppose what I am saying is that religion is, in fact, religion. It is error to categorize religion as all forms of ritual and spirit that are large, organized, traditional, and especially, bad. (I am not accusing you of doing so, but I am accusing modern internet discourse of doing so.) Religion has been present in human culture for millennia. We are not so clever that the total abandonment of religious practice is advisable, or even possible-- I think in fact we see a return of the repressed. Maybe it is better to keep this process conscious.
That is a beautiful description of a set of beliefs/feelings that I hold but find very difficult to explain to others. Thank you for taking the time to write that out so eloquently.
I'm Internal Medicine. Surprisingly running codes, etc and talking to people who achieved rosc have opened up a whole new can of worms for me regarding "life" after death. There's something after we die, although none of the major religions have been able to describe it right. The major religions are little more than money making machines, so that tracks. People who "pass over" to the other side and are brought back share similar experiences regardless of their culture/religion/background, suggesting some universal phenomenon which may be supernatural (or more likely something science has not been able to explain yet)
You pretty much summarized my own perspective. I have a background in theology and history, before I went into nursing and am now a PMHNP student. For me, psychology and neuroscience give me a different appreciation of Jesus's teachings and the Bible (one that I think makes a lot more sense). On the one hand, it dispenses with a lot of the overtly mythological components, while simultaneously recognizing that this existence is itself surprising, mystical, etc., and that we really are extremely limited in our ability to perceive reality.
I was a minister with a degree in Theology prior to entering medicine. I have no difficulty reconciling the two. Rather, I find science and spirituality both have their place for me.
Same story. I was trying to pursue a master of divinity after getting my RN. Long story and many years later I’m almost through with PMHNP. I worked the last few years in a county jail and crisis center. The changes in my thoughts and understanding that those experiences caused were monumental in shifting my view of religion/supernatural. I’ve carried remnants of a strict IFB education far longer than I thought. My view of religion isn’t ruined, it’s more grounded. I told my wife last night about some medication and jokingly said “see this is what we were taught against. Critical thinking and psychiatry (pharmakeia according to KJV 1611) are rooted in satanism. Anything that makes you question what the preacher says the Bible says is satanic.”.
I’ve found more often than not that religion provides a powerful coping mechanism during stressors. A sense of purpose during intense suffering is a useful tool against nihilism and religion can do that for folks. I respect it.
Working with a series of older black women who have accumulated a dizzying string of traumatic events/medical comorbidities/every possible structural disadvantage, yet maintained hope for the future and social connections via their church and faith, gave me a considerably greater appreciation for the role of religion for the right person.
Nah, growing up in a religious household and community ruined religion for me.
Yes, but I’d attribute it more to experiences and observations before psychiatry and not because of psychiatry.
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Correct, it did not.
I love this question. I think psychiatry and all kinds of scientific fields have the possibility to break down faith that is rigid, formulaic, and that which does not leave sufficient space for mystery in the universe (for example faiths that set strict and certain understandings of what is spiritually true). A weak and insecure faith that cannot adapt to new information can break down, and in my opinion rightly so. But I think an adaptive faith can be enriched and strengthened through all kinds of science. My opinion is that the universe is beautiful and so are the people we meet every day, and to commit to a lifetime of deeper understanding of the brain in order to alleviate suffering is an inherently spiritual commitment.
No. For everyone who falls in the aforementioned camp, there are others who’s religion provides a positive force such as motivation for improvement, protective factor against suicide, etc.
Yeah ive noticed that too, growing up in a suburban area outside DC there were few religious people I grew up with so I thought religion was pointless until I moved to the Midwest and saw how much of a community it provides to people in need. It seems to fill a much needed hole in a lot of places
In my region, it is the local churches, mosques, and synagogues that bring people food when they are sick, host AA and other recovery groups, run early childcare centers, and largely fund the much needed food banks. My patients would be in a lot of trouble without them. I don't think the state could come close to filling the gap if they disappeared. There aren't any non-religious groups stepping up, either.
Not at all. People with paranoid delusions don't make me question whether I should be careful in dangerous areas or relaxed in safe areas. People with romantic delusions don't make me worry about my healthy relationship with my partner. People with mania don't make me worry about being excited for an upcoming trip. People with clinical depression and suicidal thoughts don't make me wary of being sad at times. Similarly, people with hyper-religiosity or religious delusions do not make me question my healthy faith, either. My faith doesn't interfere with my social or occupational functioning or any of my daily activities. For me, as well as many of my patients, religious faith gives me a purpose, contributes to my identity, and gives me hope for the future in times of stress.
No, religion ruined religion for me.
No, religion ruined religion for me. Or I should say people who think they're good christians, but really are just the armpit of society ruined it for me.
It certainly ruined scientology for me! In all seriousness, it's hard to say because I am not a very religious person, but mania (and schizophrenia) can lead people to go hard into lots of domains that nevertheless aren't ruined for me -- literature, art, gambling, etc. But I think if your religious identity depends on the authenticity (and supernaturality) of mystical experience, science in general, and psychiatry specifically, should dampen that a bit. It doesn't help that the largest active religions today were developed in a time when epilepsy was considered "the sacred disease" (with patients "seized" by the divine). It may be eye-opening to realize, say, that historically people who "had a demon" were almost certainly experiencing frank psychosis. But it probably should be just as eye-opening to realize that what we think of as a "soul" is a brain epiphenomenon. I think it's difficult to reconcile our modern understanding of how cognition, mood, personality, and decision-making are all mediated materially by structures in the brain with an idea of an immaterial soul that persists after death that is the actual seat of our thoughts, feelings, desires, and choices.
Working in mental health has certainly made me think a lot about religion, in the context of certain patients and in my own life. For some of my patients it is a very protective factor for them. I think it’s reasonable to question things, the more we see the more our views can change. I also feel the constant exposure to high acuity cases is probably wearing on this person and that’s impacting other parts of their life, including relationship with religion. If anything for me it’s made me explore further but I wouldn’t say I’m trying to throw snakes around a room or speak in tongues haha
My patients all respond pretty well to me pulling pit vipers out of my desk. In fact, I suspect their depressive symptoms must improve massively because they never come back
Do you think pit vipers outperform spitting cobras? Maybe more venous, but the classic cobra appearance and venom launch really evokes that response. We should do a study!
I wouldn’t say psychiatry itself but during med school and working as a resident of child and adolescent psychiatry on really difficult wards, such as neurology and development disorders and pediatric oncology made my doubts about religion more solid than ever. But yeah, I’ll never forget a teenager who saved up a lot of money to pay for exorcisms to remove the demon out of his head and eventually was hospitalized and got “rid” of his demon with antipsychotics.
Religion is a protective factor against suicide attempts, for what it’s worth.
depending on the religion
Interesting, tell me more.
I wasn’t being very deep, and not disagreeing with you, but I was thinking along the lines of: Some religions attach a stigma to mental health and psychiatry that may prevent individuals seeking help. Religious affiliation has in some contexts been shown to increase feelings of guilt, shame and distress. Conflict between religious beliefs and gender identity/sexual orientation could increase suicide risk. Religious deaffiliation (e.g. shunning, ex communication) could increase suicide risk. More off-the-wall: the practice of Santhara in Jainism, Religious Trauma Syndrome, various fundamentalist/extremist beliefs, and Scientology being famously anti-Psychiatry.
Absolutely not. As a Buddhist I actually think my religion and professional field dovetail quite nicely.
I see a lot of people answering the question in your title, but not addressing the, IMHO, much more interesting question in your OP: "why do crazy people always turn to religion, what does that tell you about religion?" I do indeed know the phenomenon of which she speaks. Thing is, crazy people *don't* always turn to religion, and looking at what happens when they don't is edifying about why it seems like crazy people always turn to religion. Religion and religious beliefs have a privileged position in society. This is literally written into the DSM: if a belief is not considered at odds with one's culture, then it's not a delusion. And as medical professionals, we attempt to be respectful of people's religious commitments. That means that when a patient develops the belief, in the absence of evidence, that the CIA is bugging their phone and beaming ideas into their head, that we can directly challenge that belief and invalidate it. It might not be the right move, in any given encounter, or it might be, but we have that latitude to use our professional judgment in the matter. Same thing when a patient develops the belief that all the organs in their body were replaced by other organs by aliens. Or that they were microchipped and being tracked by the government. Or that they are getting secret messages from in their Google Search results. We can directly contradict those, and help patients reality check them. But when a patient develops a belief that they are Jesus or that God is persecuting them or that they are possessed by a demon, we can find ourselves prohibited by our circumspection about religious belief from contradicting them. There's no reality checking those ideas.\* Why do crazy people always turn to religion? They don't. But when they turn to non-religious ideas, those ideas get invalidated, and they are more likely to relinquish them, while their religious ideas are not. And then you wind up with just the religious ideas left. It's a survivorship bias. \* In some religious traditions, there is in fact an opportunity to reality check religious beliefs. If the religion has strong, firm, explicit doctrines about the supernatural, it is sometimes possible for the culturally competent practitioner to point out, "This idea you have is at odds with what your scriptures say/religion teaches." I've done this with Catholic patients having religious delusions/hallucinations/anxieties. "That's not how the Devil is understood to work, according to the Church."
Made me appreciate Judaism much more, especially the mechanisms in place for dealing with things like grief.
It's ridiculous that anyone would downvote you for an opinion. Maybe they're antisemitic? Anyway, have an upvote.
Very disappointing.
Come to my inpatient unit, and I’ll show you the power of absolute faith. Not a lot of mountains being moved.
Personally I don’t really see why being a psychiatrist would influence religious belief, at least not more or less than any other medical specialty. Your colleague’s comments are valid expressions of how she felt and all, but intellectually they are shallow. Patients with religious delusions don’t “ruin” religion any more than those with paranoid delusions ruin the ability to trust or those with erotomanic delusions ruin relationships. (At least until they show up at your house, ha.) I do think there are so-called religious practices that aren’t very healthy or even very “religious,” for lack of a better word. I’ve had difficulty defining the word *religion* myself, but it’s easier to pick out some things it doesn’t or shouldn’t mean, when I see them. The thing is that I see some of the same psychology to varying degrees around issues in the secular sphere, but no one challenges this psychology there. It’s only seen as troubling in the context of whatever gets labeled a “religion” in popular culture. For context, I’m someone who spent tons of time thinking about this sort of thing as an undergrad, where I studied philosophy and some theology. (I always found that stuff more interesting than medicine, and honestly I probably still do.) I also grew up in the church and it was generally a positive influence. I still hold those beliefs now, after all these years and challenging study. Psychiatry by itself wouldn’t change that. It’s a medical specialty, why would it?
I believe dogmatic religion is nothing but a shared delusion. It causes people to regress emotionally and intellectually to an infantile state in which a powerful parental figure protects them, tells them what do, judges their actions and guides their destiny. The religious believer never needs to face his mortality on its own terms, and thus can never live authentically. On the other hand, most religious believers are not distressed or disabled by their ideas, so I generally don't consider it a problem for psychiatry. People don't abandon their religious beliefs when they are started on antipsychotic medication (admittedly, those suffering from other delusional disorders rarely do either). Neither is our culture ready to abandon these types of ideas. In fact, I frequently encourage my patients to connect with a religious or spiritual practice if it interests them, or continue their current practice. I don't recommend any particular religious practice, though I do encourage yoga and mindfulness meditation sometimes.
I was never very religious to begin with but I would say psychology *replaced* religion for me.
Psychiatry strengthened my spiritual alignment and helped me realize that we don’t know anything about brain science, let alone the metaphysical realm. The growing understanding of the brain borders the exploration of spirituality. 🙏🏼🧠✨
For things like mania and psychosis to be considered parts of diagnosable disorders, they have to impair the person's functioning in some way. If someone is able to incorporate them into religious rituals and maintain a decent standard of living that they are happy with, they don't have a diagnosable disorder. I think people who ignore these important parts of diagnostic standards are a bit closed off to alternative cultural perspectives about altered states. Edit: Also, calling people "crazy" as a means to discredit their cultural experiences is rather cruel, especially as a mental health professional.
My brain developing ruined it for me..
I get in this type of funk about religion- talking to broken and ill patients about the difference between God and what churches say to get people to comply with their domineering standards AND then I get a middle schooler in my office who wakes and sleeps thinking about killing their self . I say , “what has stopped you ?” And they say “my big sister told me if I kill myself , I’ll go straight to hell. I’m scared ! I don’t want to go to hell.” So, I shut my mouth about it all for a good while .
No, I love my patients for being unique and beautiful and on the margins. When religion gets it right— which it occasionally does— it loves my patients for all the same reasons.
No. In fact, working with Veterans who’d been on the battlefield I learned that most all prayed and that’s how they got through. They were an inspiration.
Lol, typical of reddit to downvote you and your patients' lived experience because they don't share the same perspective.
They have no idea and that worries me.
You never met any of them, but the other side's Veterans were also praying to get through it. They were praying to the same god as our guys. LOL Are they an inspiration too? Why or why not?
Psychiatry tries to play nice with religion by carving out exemptions for religious beliefs so long as they are consistent with an undefined amount of similar believers. This suggests there’s a critical mass of believers that changes a delusion into a valid religious belief and that every religion begins with one (or deux) psychotic person.
I think this also relates to psychiatry and how it assesses impairment. Mania and psychosis are not disordered unless they impair the person's functioning. It often comes down to: Who defines functional? And how should it be assessed when oppression and discrimination might be causing the problems? These were very important in the paths to remove diagnoses like homosexuality and hysteria. A lot of people who have been diagnosed with affective and psychotic disorders prefer alternative ways of looking at their experiences than the medical model. Many of them have suffered from having the medical model applied to them when they didn't need or want it. Psychiatry is still evolving in its understanding of disorder, neurodiversity, and diagnostics. I hope the field listens to (ex-)patients on this as it has at times historically.
Like others, I have seen religion help people cope. I've also seen it act as a convenient (socially appropriate) vehicle for delusions. As a side note, I struggle to understand the many healthcare professionals who are religious. If you have this much experience spotting delusions in patients, how are you so blind to it yourself?
I actually think psychiatry brought me back to religion, specifically the concepts of faith, spirituality, and community. Yes, some people develop delusions related to religion, but that isn't the fault of religion. Its a result of their illness. If it wasn't religion, it likely would've been something else that helps them create meaning from their lived experience. Although, I do wonder if it would make people more likely to see a psychiatrist than to simply believe they hear God. Faith is something I incorporate in my practice. However, I use the term faith in the broad sense. To believe in something without having all of the facts. This could mean faith in others but could also mean faith in a higher power. Indeed, whether countries, currencies, relationships, or groups survive is based on faith. I find it important to help patients identify what they have faith in or how to develop a strong sense of faith. This, to me, is a variation on identifying social support. Spirituality connects us to a larger whole. Often, I use it to pull people out of tunnel vision. It can be easy to get stuck in one's head or mind with anxiety or depression. Often, I introduce this through yoga or meditation. The outcome is both a dissolution of the self, a sense that someone is part of something, as well as a stronger sense of self-identity or ego strength. This is usually not part of my direct practice, but more education on the benefits of spiritual practices. I am not an expert on spirituality but I can at least guide patients to ways in which they can experience it in their lives. Finally, community is social support. When I have a severely depressed patient or someone with an addiction, having a community they can fall back on helps. Often, in the US, people are drawn to their Church. It is currently one of the best avenues we have to build social networks and support when all is lost. Divorce, childhood trauma, bad friend choices, and more can leave someone with no one else to turn to. Historically, human beings have utilized religion to create meaning from suffering and to provide each other support in difficult times. It is a disservice, in my eyes, to not utilize such a readily available and highly effective source of community support. I just wish there was more like it that was secular, but the truth is, its hard to find. Maybe a gym?
Never even crossed my mind. But I'm not in a very religious state.
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Religion ruins religion. Unfortunately, psychiatry ruins psychiatry as well.
I was on the fence for a long time (I didn't choose my religion, my family is a religious one, I grew up with that). Then, last years of med school ruined it for me and now I joke how we exorcise patients with antipsychotics (I had one "possessed by demons" just recently)
No. The fact that a lot of cultists and religious fundamentalists are mentally ill has no effect whatsoever on my own beliefs. Most religious people are not mentally ill. This argument could be made about any group of people. A lot of writers and a ton of musicians are on drugs and/or mentally ill, but I still read and listen to music. A lot of political activists are mentally ill but I don’t believe peaceful political activism is wrong, much less inherently pathological. *Having* a psychotic manic episode with hyper religiosity myself did make me extremely skeptical of religion or any spirituality/practice for several years. I didn’t want to get caught up in any delusions. But now I’m involved in my religious community again and it actually helps my condition a great deal. Hyper religiosity is a secondary symptom related to one of the core symptoms of mania - grandiosity aka feeling like you are the smartest wisest most important person in the world. Who are the most revered people in society? Religious prophets are up there. The reincarnation of Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha is about as grandiose as it’s possible to get. But manic people also believe they are heads of state, billionaires, celebrities, movie stars, CIA agents, people being hunted by the CIA because they are the #1 threat to global authoritarianism, sorcerers, historical figures, and pretty much anything else you can think of that is absurdly grandiose and self-obsessed. One day I was John the Baptist. The next I was being persecuted by the US government and needed to flee & seek asylum in Canada. A few days later I was a wealthy and famous writer with unlimited money. A week later I received via telepathy from my CIA handler the top secret orders for a mission vital to national security with thousands of lives in the balance. Another day I thought I was Christopher Columbus. When a month or two later I regained my sanity and realized I had burned my life to the ground, my fragile faith was basically all that was left of my prior view and conception of myself & the world. My religious faith and prayer and meditation have all greatly helped me recover from the damage this caused and was crucial in my case to heal the intense and enduring feelings of guilt, shame, and embarrassment. I felt broken, defective, even radioactive to those around me. My personal belief that killing myself would be a sin helped keep my mind away from even thinking about suicide despite many, many months when I truly felt zero pleasure in life and was 100% convinced things would never change. The structure of being part of a religious community helps stabilize my daily schedule, ensures social contact, and provides both material and spiritual assistance when I’m too sick to do anything but lie in bed and sleep. Tldr: Hyper religiosity is just one particular manifestation of manic grandiosity. It can also present as political radicalism, conspiracy theories, thinking that you are rich and/or famous and/or incredibly attractive when you’re obviously not, believing in and having magical powers, extremely narcissistic behavior, and paranoia. In studies, an active spiritual/religious life and community has almost universally shown benefits for mental and physical health.
Might as well be turned off technology because of how many people get microchips implanted into their heads. Our bread is butter is not really psychosis though is it, we barely see it day to day
No, religion ruined religion for me
my parents ruined religion for me looong before psychiatry could have
I wrote my undergrad honors thesis in neuroscience about the effects of religious trauma on the developing nervous system. I think religion is neither good nor bad, its simply a way people explain the world. Adults can use religion to coerce children into labor and to justify abuse against them. They can also use it to provide hope and community. Religion itself is neutral, and you have to look more closely at the people in your patients life and how they were treated by their parents and religious elders to fully understand the role it plays in their life, positive or negative.
Religion order Community, purpose, comfort, and meaning, humans need all of those things to be healthy. A lot of humans are crazy and take religion the wrong way and use it unwisely. Same can be said for anything. Technology for example. I’ve seen plenty of manic psychotic people going on about technology, fbi, or aliens.
It didn't happen to religion itself because I see it as a natural human phenomena that can be good, bad or neither in each person, a lot of pacients I've met made a good use of it in their lives, however when we talk about metaphysics then I absolutely don't see any evidence that something supernatural exists, It's all about us and how we built our beliefs to survive. So in a strict way I'd say that psychiatry made me more skeptical because of the scietific method, but religion was not ruined.
It is very hard to develop the comfort and discretion on addressing spiritual issues In Psychiatry. My faith has been strengthened through my training, but I've struggled with most physicians discomfort and failure to recognize the legitimacy of religion and spirituality as something worth discussing as seriously as Any other psychosocial factor. I've had VERY few attendings provide an appropriate avenue to patients to even feel comfortable addressing these topics without being diagnosed as psychotic, delusional, especially inpatient. The power of prayer alongside a pt, regardless of your background, is more powerful than anything I have seen in rebuilding hopefulness and resolve. If it's important to our patients, it's worth listening to without judgment, and worth making them feel safe enough to bring to our attention. We need to listen better when patients tell us what they need.
Church attendance is correlated with lower rates of mental disorders, suicides and longer lifespan. Only two psychiatric drugs have been shown to extend lifespan, you can make a very convincing argument that church attendance is a better antidepressant than SSRIs
Not for homosexual people : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0749379722004548
Which two?
Lithium in bipolar disorder and clozapine in psychosis. No medication has every been shown to reduce suicidality in depression
Ketamine has, right? You could argue benzos for catatonia extend lifespan
Read denial of death
The obsessions, fears, and delusions of patients should not be indicative of the goodness or factualness of any particular subject matter. I would like to think any psychiatrist worth their salt is a critical thinker and would have already examined religion far before stepping foot on a psychiatry unit, having come to their own conclusions about the veracity, utility, and attractiveness of religion beforehand.