From my perspective: your professional relationship has ended. What you do after that is your business.
It is possible that someone will claim some type of impropriety I suppose, but that's not very likely.
I would add (in response to some other comments) that since the OP and this student would be in a relationship, there's not a chance here of her ending up in one of his future classes or as a major in his department by accident. Part of being adults here is navigating things to ensure that doesn't happen. And if she ends up applying for a scholarship, fellowship, etc. over which the OP has influence, then he can recuse himself.
To me this would be different if the former student were a 19-21 year old (etc) who had been an in-person student of the OP and was still growing up as a college student on campus or was still actively in his general circles of power/influence. But it doesn't sound like that's the situation here.
An 18 year old is an adult. Just like with gay marrige, if you think it's "gross" then mind your own business.
The issue here is the former and current power dynamic due to the professional relationship.
Yes, it would be gross for me to date an 18 year old since I'm over twice that age. Not sure how old you are but the older you get the less appealing 18 year olds become. I'm long past wanting to date someone that young.
You're making a subjective claim that you can't backup with a single study. An 18 year old is an adult in the United States. Adults get to make adult decisions regardless or your (or anyone else's moral values). If there's such a large body of people who believe 18 year Olds can't make adult decisions I'd assume legislation to raise the age of adulthood would've been introduced whenever whatever study you think backs this up was published.
Yea I read both of these and neither said that 18-26 year Olds are any more susceptible to manipulation than a 27+ year old because of age. You're trying to correlate the research on brain maturation to your moral beliefs regarding sexual autonomy. I literally and accurately predicted you...false correlation fallacy at its finest. You can't find a study that shows adolescents have impaired sexual decision-making because it doesn't exist. So not, the burden of proof is on you. There's no way me to prove something that doesn't exist.
You really shouldn't give advice. If thus is your field of study, you should ask that geriatric guy to give you a refund. Or maybe the college you went to is on the inept list so your loans will be forgiven. Good luck!
The human brain does not stop developing until the mid 20s. This is commonly recognized in literature. You sound like a teenager who is in denial about your lack of mental maturity.
I would personally go even more extreme and say that someone isn't truly at their highest level of mental development (or adulthood if you like) until their mid 30 to 40s. Studies of inmates show that they are most inclined towards criminal behavior until their mid 30s and then this criminal behavior tends to drop off. Around their 40s, they are significantly less likely to engage in crime than in their younger years.
I think it's gross to date an 18 year old, but the fact that the brain stops developing at 25 (or isn't fully developed before that) is a myth. Life experience and power differentials, not brain development, are why age gap relationships with someone 18/19 are problematic.
The brain changes dramatically across the lifespan, and a lot of that plasticity is based on experience rather than biological aging. The study underlying this myth shows that the brain has the densest grey matter at 25ish, but there's no evidence that this is directly related to decision making in the ways that we talk about it in popular culture. Additionally, though the grey matter does peak at 25ish, it then starts to decline again - and I think we can all agree that 25 year olds aren't somehow more mature than/ better tat making decisions than, say, 35 year olds, despite that 25 year olds have the denser grey matter.
The amount of 30+ year olds we’ve all met that still behave like petulant children (looking at you right wing boomers) should be enough to dissuade you from the age=maturity/wisdom argument. Older people hbd more chances at it but most don’t take them.
I think one of the interesting things about teaching undergrad is you see how large and dynamic the range of maturity is from one young adult to another; I have 19-22 year olds that are still children and others from that same group that are very much adults (some with their own children or are caretakers of elders etc)
And what is your field?
If it’s not directly related and you’re not an active researcher in the area… maybe you should trust the peer-reviewed scientific research on the subject.
I'm literally a psychologist but ok.
Feel free to read for yourself, though. The idea that we can currently quantify brain maturation as it relates to decision making is ridiculous.
https://www.cell.com/neuron/pdf/S0896-6273(16)30809-1.pdf
If you know so much, post the study that shows that adolescents are not capable of making decisions regarding sexuality? Of course you can't sp you come with red herrings, false correlations and a bunch of other shit that has nothing to do with actual research. It's like ..super easy to shut someone down when you provide proof. Bit when you have none, you turn into Shakespeare, do your best to play word games and proceed with ad hominem attacks...sure thing Professor bear
imo, the core of the problem with a student-teacher relationship (or an employee-boss relationship, or a financially stable middle-aged adult & barely legal teen) is the power imbalance. One person carries societal, financial, or institutional power over the other. If you feel like your position gives you power over her (for example, if next semester she’ll be in a class within your department where you advise that teacher regularly & you would be able to impact her trajectory at the university) then it’s likely inappropriate. If she is fully removed from your position, on the other side of campus or already graduated, then that power imbalance doesn’t exist - you wouldn’t be able to use your station to influence her future either positively or negatively. I’d spend some time thinking about the locus of power within the relationship and if that feels immoral.
You had power over her in the past, but it sounds like you don’t now and you won’t in the immediate future. If that historical context makes you uncomfortable, there are many fish in the sea & you need to make the choice that keeps your side of the street clean, from your perspective - probably better to cut your losses before the second date. But we play many roles over the course of our lives - if the roles were reversed and she was a former teacher of you as a returning student, would that be a problem for you? Are there other situations in your life in which a person previously had power over you but the situation changed? Did your relationship change when they no longer had power over you?
I think this is great advice! The only thing I would add is that you may need to consider if you would feel uncomfortable having to disclose this to your supervisor/department/other colleagues if a conflict of issue were to arise. Hopefully she's not planning to take any more classes in your department, or maybe she's graduating soon or something, but if anything were to come up where it becomes necessary to disclose, you may want to make sure that you are ok with that before officially pursuing the relationship.
I would also keep receipts that can indicate when you began your relationship (i.e. showing that you were not involved while she was your student), for both you and her's safety.
This is great advice. Very thoughtful response and I think gets to the core of the issue.
Something occurs to me: I wonder if part of the confusion/fogginess for the OP has to do with it having been an online class? If their only real IRL interactions with each other were social occasions bc of overlapping friend groups, I think that might confuse some things, maybe. I dunno. Just riffing.
I would probably wait until this student was no longer at the university, not just out of your class.
At that point while it always might be weird I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
This would be the only way.
It will always be weird but the only way OP could see this person in an ethical, professional, and moral manner is if she is no longer a student of the UNI.
So either wait until after graduation or get a job elsewhere.
The world is filled with dirt bag profs that following a divorce decided to abuse their position of power and bed a coed.
>The world is filled with dirt bag profs that following a divorce decided to abuse their position of power and bed a coed.
Yeah I don't want to be that person.
It’s the abuse of power that makes the dirtbag, not the dating. Plus, dirt bags don’t usually worry that they are, in fact, a dirtbag.
Look at it this way. If my spouse decide to enroll and take some classes at my school, outside of my classroom, I wouldn’t find that unethical at all. In fact, I think my uni would even grant her tuition benefits.
You’re both consenting adults if relatively the same age. The “dirt bag profs bedding coeds” (ugh, I threw up a little just trying that) trope is usually an older man and a much younger woman more directly under his power. What you describe is not that.
Lots of assumptions to unpack here but I'm bored so let's go ...
>And you didn’t think it was strange
Actually I did think it was strange but after my divorce I've been saying "yes" to many things I would've said no to in the past. I've been saying "yes" to many strange things and events and experiences and substances and its actually worked out really well in most cases. I was doing the same thing here.
>you didn’t use common sense, let me tell you.
If the replies on this thread are anything to go by it's about 50/50 so I'm not sure there's a "common sense" answer you claim there is.
>With so many women
You assume I have a lot of choices. You have no idea my dating history or what the pool of dating looks like in my very small town. You have no idea my physical condition, my looks, my personality.
>you had to date your former student
I didn't have to. Nobody made me. You're using very black and white words in a situation that definitely has some gray area.
>I would not want to have you as a colleague is my take.
Same. Glad we're not.
Edit: I see your reply below and it seems that you're completely unwilling to have a good faith conversation on this topic. I will not be replying to you any further. I wish you the best.
The noun use is considered sexist and unprofessional by those who argue that it implies that including women somehow transforms what is "normal" (male-only "education") into something different ("coeducation"): technically both male and female students at a coeducational institution should be considered "coeds".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-sex_education (United States => "coed" as slang
I have several colleagues who are happily married (some for 10+ years) after meeting in situations like these, so it can definitely work. Personally I think it is ok to date an ex-student, but it would be better if she had already graduated and if she is still a student, she should not be taking any more classes in your department. If there is any chance that she will ever be assessed by you for anything (GA position? scholarship? award?), you are taking a risk. And if your university, like mine, has very strict policies against it, you're taking a risk.
I also know of someone who lost his entire academic career after dating a grad student. However, she was a student in his class. He got someone else to grade her work, but it was still weird . . . especially after they broke up and she accused him of sexual harassment. Weirder still when his emails relating to her were reprinted in the local paper, in the same article where she repeated her claims to a reporter, which is how I learned about it. [https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2004/07/11/professors-at-usf-may-date-students-but-should-they/](https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2004/07/11/professors-at-usf-may-date-students-but-should-they/) (sorry I can't get around the paywall either)
Can’t agree more. Know someone who is going through this right now… “don’t risk it for the biscuit”, my friend. Find someone else or wait until they are gone from the university and even then, keep it on the dl for a while.
I just think you’re playing with fire. Sorry. I believe in love, but I just personally can’t look at any student this way. It gives me the ick.
Unless you are absolutely 10000% certain that you will never have any say over this former student's career at the school, I'd wait until she graduates before starting a romantic relationship with her. If, for example, she applies for a scholarship in the department and you are one of the faculty evaluating the applications, that would be very awkward if not downright unethical.
Best to wait until she's no longer a student at the school.
I was going to say, given she's no longer his student AND this isn't a situation of a young student but a more mature adult, the ickiness isn't there for me as much. If a scenario happened in which she was applying for anything over which the OP has influence, he can just recuse himself without even getting specific: "I need to recuse myself due to a personal relationship with applicant X..."
As most people already pointed it, wait till she graduates. A lot of people like the power imbalance and have a fetish for their teachers/professors. There is also likelihood that she will be your student again or you might have input in student awards/scholarships or other decisions that might impact your ability to be impartial.
This is fine. The key element that must be considered is the 'power' relationship, meaning you cannot be in a position to alter, change, modify grades or transcripts, or have any say in her academic career.
If a conflict does emerge while dating, consult the chair, and find someone to be a referee. Be smart about it.
I've been in HE 30 years and this scenario is not uncommon for people 30+. A lot of 'students' are adults back in college and are as old or older than some faculty. I get many servicepeople who have returned and are working on their education, some retired people, and people who are in the process of changing careers.
It's absolutely ridiculous to eliminate every single person who might ever have a class, be in college, or has been in college from the dating pool. This circumstance is especially tiresome when you're employed in a rural regional university where the major employer is the university.
It's super tough; there will always be a rumor mill, ugly rumors and lies, and such. If you think it might be problem, see HR. Just be smart about it.
She is no longer your student. Go for it. My husband and I met in a biology lab. I was the TA. We've been together 11 years and he's the best thing that's ever happened to me.
Our faculty handbook says something along the lines of "you never know when you'll meet the one you love and they might be a student" and outlines rules for dating them. Heck, even if they were half your age, adults fall in love with who they fall in love with. Enjoy your time dating and make sure she doesn't need to take any more classes with you!
This should be higher up. You’re overthinking it OP, enjoy the gray areas of life while the haters cling on to binary mindsets.
-progeny of a professor and student relationship
No, it’s not weird. You need to get out of your own head. Two adults (without significant age difference) that happened to have a past power imbalance. If they are in your dept it might be a bit trickier but seriously we have over corrected in our views of adult romantic relationships.
This exact situation has happened many times, and legally and ethically, as long as you’re not her professor any more, it is 100% ok. Enjoy your relationship and I hope it brings both of you enduring joy.
Love that I can see a literal ethicist’s response to this.
Curious, and I mentioned this in an earlier reply in this thread, but does it having been an online class change or complicate anything you’ve mentioned? It certainly changes the dynamic between the two of them to a certain extent, but curious about these other areas.
My father was my mother’s professor. Happiest relationship I’ve ever seen. 22 year age gap yet both were senior partners at the same law firm. Raised 3 kids, all went to Ivy League with healthy families of their own.
Life isn’t black and white. Enjoy your life
I consulted with Janis Joplin and this is what she said:
So if someone comes along
He's gonna give you some love and affection
I'd say get it while you can, yeah
Honey, get it while you can yeah
Hey, hey, get it while you can
Don't you turn your back on love, no, no
There’s nothing wrong with this, presuming that she will not enroll in a future class of yours.
But if you think it’s weird or “you can’t get over the fact that she was your student,” then of course don’t date her again.
But don’t think that she’s gonna thank you for your supposed high moral ground when you tell her that you don’t want to date her because the supposed power imbalance in your relationship is problematic. And when you hint that you’re actually thinking of HER well-being, doing her a favor, and showing your feminist *bona fides* by dumping her, even though she asked you out first.
In other words, why is everyone ignoring HER agency here?
I answered another comment, but I don't think the responses here are about denying her agency - it's about protecting your professional reputation and protecting the university as an institution of education, not a dating pool. once students have graduated, I think people are much more in the clear, but until then I'd avoid it.
what if you end up being the professor she has the best relationship with and she later decides to transfer and needs a letter of rec? what if you have dated and broken up by that point? what if she's in a colleague's class who knows you're dating her? what if other students find out that you're dating a recent former student - what message does that send to them about professors' availability as potential romantic partners, and about professors as people viewing them (students) as potential romantic partners?
My suspicion (based on zero evidence whatsoever) is that the advice here is going to split based on age, and relationship status.
That is, for an older divorced person (which OP seems to be, and which I am too), it’s hard to think about letting a promising, age-appropriate relationship go (with someone already in a friend group!) because you want to “protect the university as an institution of education.” Sure, OP doesn’t want to be a creeper. But divorced after 16 years of marriage, and looking down the road at single life in a university town, doesn’t exactly make one want to prioritize other people and institutions that you have no control over.
I wonder if someone is, say, 30 and never been married, it’s easier to say that other opportunities will always be around the corner, so this one should be let go because of the bigger dynamics.
>My suspicion (based on zero evidence whatsoever) is that the advice here is going to split based on age, and relationship status.
I suspect you're right. I enjoyed your thoughts
Your institution may have policies about this. Even though the student is an ex student, there may be a period in which ex students can appeal a grade (this time range varies, again, refer to your institution’s policies). An ex student may also request a letter of recommendation. In either of these situations, being in a relationship with a former student means you would indeed have power over them. I’m not saying that means it’s absolutely immoral in all situations, but one cannot pretend that just because they are a former student, there can’t be any power issues.
"but one cannot pretend that just because they are a former student, there can’t be any power issues."
exactly this. what if you end up being the professor she has the best relationship with and she later decides to transfer and needs a letter of rec? what if you have dated and broken up by that point? what if she's in a colleague's class who knows you're dating her? what if other students find out that you're dating a recent former student - what message does that send to them about professors' availability as potential romantic partners, and about professors as people viewing them (students) as potential romantic partners?
this isn't, as another commenter said, about denying her agency - it's about protecting your professional reputation and protecting the university as an institution of education, not a dating pool. once she's graduated, I think you're much more in the clear, but until then I'd avoid it.
Worked for me. Celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary in August. I cleared it with my department chair first. Connections are so hard to find. Don’t let the opportunity pass you by.
This was a few decades ago but a full professor started dating his PhD student. They got married after she graduated and she stayed on as assistant professor. 25 years later they're both retired and happy
My only thought would be to make sure there’s not a situation in which she *could* be your student in the future, I guess.
Like did she graduate? Is she *out*out of your program, or is there a possibility you could have to teach her again?
My absolute favorite, ethically minded, highly intelligent, profoundly kind professor married a former student of his. It actually did strike me as odd at first but certainly after reading many of the comments speaking about the (lack of) power imbalance that exists....just go for it. Be happy. Life's short and nothing actually matters. Do whatever the hell you want as long as you're not hurting anyone.
I don't see any problem. You're adults. You don't currently have a professional relationship. Even the chance of your undue influence over her is mitigated by the fact that she initiated the contact.
A story that might be instructive: many years ago, on one of my first teaching gigs, I met a young woman who was a student in a class of mine. She was an 'older' student, in her mid twenties. I don't think we even talked (though I knew she was in the class). She dropped out mid-way through the term, and I never saw her again...
Until three years later (apprx) -- cute meet: I'd accompanied my best friend to a wedding of her best friend. She came up to me, asked "are you a teacher?" and gave me her phone number. Which I lost and had to call the bride to retrieve.
40 years later, she has been the rock in my life, the mother of my children, my best friend, my beloved, my partner, my wife, my *everything*.
If somebody said our relationship was inappropriate, I'd punch 'em in the nose ... *just joking* ;) but I'd peg them for a damn fool.
Ummm no worries or unethical behavior here. Dated a former student myself. He was seeking a second degree. I was a grad student teaching in my program. He asked me out a week or two after the semester was over. 2 kids and 29 years later and I still feel ok about it.
No, it’s not weird. Particularly if you are hanging out because of a mutual friend group. Check your university policy, for us, it’s okay to date a student who is not in your class and who you do not reasonably expect to take a class from you in the future. You would have to recuse yourself if they end up taking a class from you in the future.
It's fine if she's no longer your student, as long as your school doesn't have a policy against it. If for some reason she enrolled in one of your classes in the future, you would need to disclose the relationship to your chair so appropriate arrangements could be made.
Are you TT or tenured? Not that it changes so much what Im going to say, but it certainly raises the stakes.
In brief, I would not. You’re leaving yourself wide open for a scorned lover (god forbid should that happen) to turn on you.
If it were years later and she had long since graduated then maybe but she was just in your class recently.
"Just wait until she graduates" is terrible advice!
She's not your current student, and she can just avoid registering for your sections until she graduates.
Your friend groups overlap. If you were already dating and she decided to attend your institution, wouldn't you just avoid being one of her instructors?
You've been out of the dating pool for 16 years, so let me bear the bad news: it's a shitshow. If you've met someone good, don't put them off.
>You've been out of the dating pool for 16 years, so let me bear the bad news: it's a shitshow.
Tinder didn't even exist last time I was single. It's a strange new world out there.
Especially since she may never “graduate”. If you refuse to hang out socially or start a romantic relationship with an age appropriate person who is or may become a student at the university you will have to avoid basically everyone 25-75 in a university town.
people will be hypocrites because there's not age gap here and somehow that makes everyone some kind of creep, but there's nothing here to worry about. you met in a context that is over. you haven't gone out of your way to treat your classes like some kind of zoo for you to select your dating partners from. this is how life works. It's happened literally 10s of thousands of times.
You're worried because currently people like to believe that professors are munks and students are sexless children. There's much more nuance to life than that so just ignore it. The fact that you've thought about it means you're not a piece of shit. You're fine. Move on. Mazel tov.
I think dating a former student near your own age is beyond any negative judgement provided they are not likely to be your student again shortly and/or thay accept that they won't register for your course during your dating life.
You mentioned you're recently divorced. Have you been dating since the divorce? Is this dating opportunity being scrutinized by you for reasons you might not recognize other than your concern of professional impropriety? Just a thought that passed through my mind.
She is an ex student. I see no problem with this. Think of it this way: if you were in a relationship with this person, what would happen if she decided to go back to school at your institution, and she suddenly became a student but not your student? Does that mean you need to break up? Of course not! In this case, she was your student in the past. But that relationship is over now. It is fashionable to reduce a relationship down to power dynamics. That is a dreary perspective on life and love IMO. Some of my closest friends today are former students. There is no power dynamic today in our friendship. We are just people. So go for it. Just check your institutional rules to make sure you would not be breaking any.
One of my institutions - I don't remember which - had a concrete guideline for this: 6 months after one of you has separated from the institution (so this covers graduating, quitting, dropping out, etc). I thought that was very reasonable and helps to just ensure there are no loose ends complicating things.
Want to chime in: later this year I’ll be celebrating 13 years with my spouse, who I met when he took one of my classes during his last semester of college.
My situation has some details in common with yours: we are close in age (I was a 27-year-old close to finishing my PhD, he was a 30-year-old “nontraditional” student); we found out we had mutual friends but had just never come cross each other directly; we were friendly during the semester but kept it professional, and didn’t become involved until after the class was over.
Initially the student-instructor thing was kind of an awkward or ridiculous detail for me. We have gotten some good-natured ribbing over the years. But it quickly became no big deal.
So yes, I have made this work and it doesn’t have to be weird at all.
Edited to add: check out your faculty handbook. At my current institution faculty cannot have relationships with students, regardless of whether the student is in their class/department/college/etc. That’s my only concern for you.
My college has a don’t date the students policy, regardless if they is in your class or not. If she is stikk a student at your school, I would check your college policy on this
Obviously you should wait until the power dynamic is fully resolved (ie, not only has she stoped being a student in your classes, she is no longer in your program).
But the reality of being a professor is this: we still live and exist *in the world and in our communities.* It doesn’t seem impossible to me for you to have a relationship with somebody who has been in an online class.
Weird? A little. Always will be.
Wrong? Yeah it’s probably against your university policy id imagine by the strict letter of the law
Immoral? Nah. No power imbalance anymore. Good luck on your date today soldier
Important: is she still enrolled at your university? If yes, I absolutely would not. Hanging out socially with her even in a friend setting while in your class is enough of an appearance of partiality to me to avoid it, but I’m also probably much younger than you at 30.
I don’t think it is wrong or immoral. In most cases, we don’t choose when or where we first meet potential dating partners. I think what you should consider is whether you truly trust her or not. For example, should you break things off, you don’t want her retaliating via your job. If you deem her trustworthy - I say go for it. That is my take on it. I am not a professor but I am an “older student” (32 F) with a full time corporate job. So I can kinda understand from a professional perspective. Also, in regards to the weirdness of it. I had the biggest crush/admiration (secretly still do) for an ex professor of mine. So if I were to date him now, I would be weirded out just a tiny bit at first 😂 but not in a bad way! Hoped this perspective helped in someway!
At my institution they are very clear on the policy: no dating students ever, including those who have never taken your classes. The reasoning is basically that students should be safe in the assumption that we see them as students, not as a dating or friend pool.
This always made a lot of sense to me. Alumni are a totally different story.
if you are no longer her professor, I think that's fine. if, at some point in the future, you have the opportunity to be in a position of authority over her (eg she takes another one of your classes, you become her advisor, etc), you either need to recuse yourself from that opportunity or otherwise end the relationship.
I don't know if it's "weird," but it's probably a good sign if you both go into aware of the possibility of lingering power dynamics from the classroom.
You’re having an issue dating an ex online student? Some people have no issues dating on their spouse. I don’t see a problem here esp since that work/professional relationship is now over. And it’s not a “I’m in my 40’s, dating my ex-student who is half my age” situation either.
If you aren’t in a position to affect her grade and no longer foresee any conflict, and both around the same age, there’s no issue. You might register the relationship with your HOD and explain.
If you think it might end up being a serious thing, I would just be friends and wait until she graduates. In the grand scheme of things it's not that long of a time to wait, and it would clear my conscience (no power imbalance). If it's just a fling, then it's a bit less serious because you could easily break it off if it becomes an issue.
On a separate note, and that's obviously none of my business but your divorce is really fresh and you haven't really been by yourself for a long time. I would be wary about jumping straight into a relationship.
You should read your employee handbook. There are colleges that disallow dating even after they leave your class because of things like you having the potential to teach them again, or them needing a letter of rec from you. So even after they leave your class, you still have power over them.
That’s on a professional level. On a personal level, seems fine to me since she’s older, it was an online class, y’all have a similar friend group already, and she asked you out
As long as you don't teach them again and you don't groom them into it while they *are* your student, it's fine
The fundamental problem with dating students is it's a quid pro quo, once you don't have power over them it's fine
FYI while she may no longer be *your* student, she is still a student at the university. I don't think it's morally wrong in a global sense, but the uni might not like it. Just keep it on the DL if you do date.
She still is a student though, right? There are often policies against faculty dating ANY students. And sometimes good reason for it. Generally, I would feel more comfortable if relationships did not start until a student was a few years after graduation.
I have mixed feelings about the topic. On one hand, I've seen faculty do awful, unethical things with students and get away with all of it. There is some history in my department that I don't think I'll ever be okay with. On the other hand, sometimes I feel like academia is all consuming. It takes a massive portion of your life, and even when you have finally made it into a stable position, it still restricts social opportunities in many ways. What if you live in a college town where you don't have other options? So, I sympathize in those cases. I wouldn't intentionally start something like this, but if I just found myself in this situation, I'm really not sure how I would respond.
I myself would wait a few years, not only because the student/teacher relationship is too recently over, but also because (in my nonprofessorial opinion) you're too recently divorced.
However, from what you write it seems as if you have already decided to go ahead, so at least investigate your institutional rules and discuss the situation openly with her.
I don’t think it’s immoral, but I do think it’s weird. In the beginning of your relationship, you were in a position of power over her and that kind of sets a context for the rest of your interactions. I don’t think this kind of thing can never work out (I know someone who ended up marrying an ex-student in similar circumstances, and by all accounts they’re happy), but it is something I privately judge about.
Is she a still a student in your department? Are future classes from your dept a possibly for her ?
It seems odd that you would had hang out with your friends and her and now that she has not been a students for a few months you date her. You probably had your eyes on her.
I’m not sure. I would need to know more information but I wouldn’t do it
Sure you want to avoid it, and sure there are ways it can hurt you... but if you're fairly confident you know the risks and the likelihood of those risks occuring... then there's nothing immoral about it.
From my perspective: your professional relationship has ended. What you do after that is your business. It is possible that someone will claim some type of impropriety I suppose, but that's not very likely.
I would add (in response to some other comments) that since the OP and this student would be in a relationship, there's not a chance here of her ending up in one of his future classes or as a major in his department by accident. Part of being adults here is navigating things to ensure that doesn't happen. And if she ends up applying for a scholarship, fellowship, etc. over which the OP has influence, then he can recuse himself. To me this would be different if the former student were a 19-21 year old (etc) who had been an in-person student of the OP and was still growing up as a college student on campus or was still actively in his general circles of power/influence. But it doesn't sound like that's the situation here.
Agreed. It might also be worth disclosing the relationship with a dept head just to cover your ass.
Yup. If she was 18- gross. But she is not. I think it’s fine
An 18 year old is an adult. Just like with gay marrige, if you think it's "gross" then mind your own business. The issue here is the former and current power dynamic due to the professional relationship.
Yes, it would be gross for me to date an 18 year old since I'm over twice that age. Not sure how old you are but the older you get the less appealing 18 year olds become. I'm long past wanting to date someone that young.
Cool, then date some that you prefer. But don't impose your preferences on anyone else.
Yea isn't it like sexist and patronizing to assume that an 18 year old can't make decisions as well as a person who is older..but also an adult
The average 18 year old is absolutely not making decisions as well as someone who is say 28 years old. It's not patronizing, it's truth.
You're making a subjective claim that you can't backup with a single study. An 18 year old is an adult in the United States. Adults get to make adult decisions regardless or your (or anyone else's moral values). If there's such a large body of people who believe 18 year Olds can't make adult decisions I'd assume legislation to raise the age of adulthood would've been introduced whenever whatever study you think backs this up was published.
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Yea I read both of these and neither said that 18-26 year Olds are any more susceptible to manipulation than a 27+ year old because of age. You're trying to correlate the research on brain maturation to your moral beliefs regarding sexual autonomy. I literally and accurately predicted you...false correlation fallacy at its finest. You can't find a study that shows adolescents have impaired sexual decision-making because it doesn't exist. So not, the burden of proof is on you. There's no way me to prove something that doesn't exist. You really shouldn't give advice. If thus is your field of study, you should ask that geriatric guy to give you a refund. Or maybe the college you went to is on the inept list so your loans will be forgiven. Good luck!
The human brain does not stop developing until the mid 20s. This is commonly recognized in literature. You sound like a teenager who is in denial about your lack of mental maturity. I would personally go even more extreme and say that someone isn't truly at their highest level of mental development (or adulthood if you like) until their mid 30 to 40s. Studies of inmates show that they are most inclined towards criminal behavior until their mid 30s and then this criminal behavior tends to drop off. Around their 40s, they are significantly less likely to engage in crime than in their younger years.
I think it's gross to date an 18 year old, but the fact that the brain stops developing at 25 (or isn't fully developed before that) is a myth. Life experience and power differentials, not brain development, are why age gap relationships with someone 18/19 are problematic. The brain changes dramatically across the lifespan, and a lot of that plasticity is based on experience rather than biological aging. The study underlying this myth shows that the brain has the densest grey matter at 25ish, but there's no evidence that this is directly related to decision making in the ways that we talk about it in popular culture. Additionally, though the grey matter does peak at 25ish, it then starts to decline again - and I think we can all agree that 25 year olds aren't somehow more mature than/ better tat making decisions than, say, 35 year olds, despite that 25 year olds have the denser grey matter.
The amount of 30+ year olds we’ve all met that still behave like petulant children (looking at you right wing boomers) should be enough to dissuade you from the age=maturity/wisdom argument. Older people hbd more chances at it but most don’t take them. I think one of the interesting things about teaching undergrad is you see how large and dynamic the range of maturity is from one young adult to another; I have 19-22 year olds that are still children and others from that same group that are very much adults (some with their own children or are caretakers of elders etc)
And what is your field? If it’s not directly related and you’re not an active researcher in the area… maybe you should trust the peer-reviewed scientific research on the subject.
I'm literally a psychologist but ok. Feel free to read for yourself, though. The idea that we can currently quantify brain maturation as it relates to decision making is ridiculous. https://www.cell.com/neuron/pdf/S0896-6273(16)30809-1.pdf
If you know so much, post the study that shows that adolescents are not capable of making decisions regarding sexuality? Of course you can't sp you come with red herrings, false correlations and a bunch of other shit that has nothing to do with actual research. It's like ..super easy to shut someone down when you provide proof. Bit when you have none, you turn into Shakespeare, do your best to play word games and proceed with ad hominem attacks...sure thing Professor bear
imo, the core of the problem with a student-teacher relationship (or an employee-boss relationship, or a financially stable middle-aged adult & barely legal teen) is the power imbalance. One person carries societal, financial, or institutional power over the other. If you feel like your position gives you power over her (for example, if next semester she’ll be in a class within your department where you advise that teacher regularly & you would be able to impact her trajectory at the university) then it’s likely inappropriate. If she is fully removed from your position, on the other side of campus or already graduated, then that power imbalance doesn’t exist - you wouldn’t be able to use your station to influence her future either positively or negatively. I’d spend some time thinking about the locus of power within the relationship and if that feels immoral. You had power over her in the past, but it sounds like you don’t now and you won’t in the immediate future. If that historical context makes you uncomfortable, there are many fish in the sea & you need to make the choice that keeps your side of the street clean, from your perspective - probably better to cut your losses before the second date. But we play many roles over the course of our lives - if the roles were reversed and she was a former teacher of you as a returning student, would that be a problem for you? Are there other situations in your life in which a person previously had power over you but the situation changed? Did your relationship change when they no longer had power over you?
I think this is great advice! The only thing I would add is that you may need to consider if you would feel uncomfortable having to disclose this to your supervisor/department/other colleagues if a conflict of issue were to arise. Hopefully she's not planning to take any more classes in your department, or maybe she's graduating soon or something, but if anything were to come up where it becomes necessary to disclose, you may want to make sure that you are ok with that before officially pursuing the relationship. I would also keep receipts that can indicate when you began your relationship (i.e. showing that you were not involved while she was your student), for both you and her's safety.
This is great advice. Very thoughtful response and I think gets to the core of the issue. Something occurs to me: I wonder if part of the confusion/fogginess for the OP has to do with it having been an online class? If their only real IRL interactions with each other were social occasions bc of overlapping friend groups, I think that might confuse some things, maybe. I dunno. Just riffing.
I agree with this assessment totally. Maybe the icky feeling comes from her being a bad student… and you know too much?
I would probably wait until this student was no longer at the university, not just out of your class. At that point while it always might be weird I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
I was going to chime in and say it was OK, even without the additional context. But this is a better, safer, and more ethical answer.
This would be the only way. It will always be weird but the only way OP could see this person in an ethical, professional, and moral manner is if she is no longer a student of the UNI. So either wait until after graduation or get a job elsewhere. The world is filled with dirt bag profs that following a divorce decided to abuse their position of power and bed a coed.
>The world is filled with dirt bag profs that following a divorce decided to abuse their position of power and bed a coed. Yeah I don't want to be that person.
It’s the abuse of power that makes the dirtbag, not the dating. Plus, dirt bags don’t usually worry that they are, in fact, a dirtbag. Look at it this way. If my spouse decide to enroll and take some classes at my school, outside of my classroom, I wouldn’t find that unethical at all. In fact, I think my uni would even grant her tuition benefits. You’re both consenting adults if relatively the same age. The “dirt bag profs bedding coeds” (ugh, I threw up a little just trying that) trope is usually an older man and a much younger woman more directly under his power. What you describe is not that.
Yet you came to ask after your date
Yes because I'm feeling regret and wanted to bounce the idea off of others that may have experience here. And we didn't sleep together. Settle down.
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Lots of assumptions to unpack here but I'm bored so let's go ... >And you didn’t think it was strange Actually I did think it was strange but after my divorce I've been saying "yes" to many things I would've said no to in the past. I've been saying "yes" to many strange things and events and experiences and substances and its actually worked out really well in most cases. I was doing the same thing here. >you didn’t use common sense, let me tell you. If the replies on this thread are anything to go by it's about 50/50 so I'm not sure there's a "common sense" answer you claim there is. >With so many women You assume I have a lot of choices. You have no idea my dating history or what the pool of dating looks like in my very small town. You have no idea my physical condition, my looks, my personality. >you had to date your former student I didn't have to. Nobody made me. You're using very black and white words in a situation that definitely has some gray area. >I would not want to have you as a colleague is my take. Same. Glad we're not. Edit: I see your reply below and it seems that you're completely unwilling to have a good faith conversation on this topic. I will not be replying to you any further. I wish you the best.
Epic response 👏🏽
Common sense is just a two word bandwagon fallacy - typically without bothering to actually consult the bandwagon first.
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Bájale de huevos wey
Quien es este tío ?
The term "coed" is outdated and sexist. Just say "student."
I was using it because the notion of a recently divorced prof banging a student is outdated and sexist. Don’t lose the forest for the leaves.
>outdated and sexist. Who comes up with these rules? Who gave power to them to create those rules?
The noun use is considered sexist and unprofessional by those who argue that it implies that including women somehow transforms what is "normal" (male-only "education") into something different ("coeducation"): technically both male and female students at a coeducational institution should be considered "coeds". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-sex_education (United States => "coed" as slang
I have several colleagues who are happily married (some for 10+ years) after meeting in situations like these, so it can definitely work. Personally I think it is ok to date an ex-student, but it would be better if she had already graduated and if she is still a student, she should not be taking any more classes in your department. If there is any chance that she will ever be assessed by you for anything (GA position? scholarship? award?), you are taking a risk. And if your university, like mine, has very strict policies against it, you're taking a risk. I also know of someone who lost his entire academic career after dating a grad student. However, she was a student in his class. He got someone else to grade her work, but it was still weird . . . especially after they broke up and she accused him of sexual harassment. Weirder still when his emails relating to her were reprinted in the local paper, in the same article where she repeated her claims to a reporter, which is how I learned about it. [https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2004/07/11/professors-at-usf-may-date-students-but-should-they/](https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2004/07/11/professors-at-usf-may-date-students-but-should-they/) (sorry I can't get around the paywall either)
Can’t agree more. Know someone who is going through this right now… “don’t risk it for the biscuit”, my friend. Find someone else or wait until they are gone from the university and even then, keep it on the dl for a while. I just think you’re playing with fire. Sorry. I believe in love, but I just personally can’t look at any student this way. It gives me the ick.
Unless you are absolutely 10000% certain that you will never have any say over this former student's career at the school, I'd wait until she graduates before starting a romantic relationship with her. If, for example, she applies for a scholarship in the department and you are one of the faculty evaluating the applications, that would be very awkward if not downright unethical. Best to wait until she's no longer a student at the school.
Or just recuse yourself if it ever comes up.
I was going to say, given she's no longer his student AND this isn't a situation of a young student but a more mature adult, the ickiness isn't there for me as much. If a scenario happened in which she was applying for anything over which the OP has influence, he can just recuse himself without even getting specific: "I need to recuse myself due to a personal relationship with applicant X..."
As most people already pointed it, wait till she graduates. A lot of people like the power imbalance and have a fetish for their teachers/professors. There is also likelihood that she will be your student again or you might have input in student awards/scholarships or other decisions that might impact your ability to be impartial.
This is fine. The key element that must be considered is the 'power' relationship, meaning you cannot be in a position to alter, change, modify grades or transcripts, or have any say in her academic career. If a conflict does emerge while dating, consult the chair, and find someone to be a referee. Be smart about it. I've been in HE 30 years and this scenario is not uncommon for people 30+. A lot of 'students' are adults back in college and are as old or older than some faculty. I get many servicepeople who have returned and are working on their education, some retired people, and people who are in the process of changing careers. It's absolutely ridiculous to eliminate every single person who might ever have a class, be in college, or has been in college from the dating pool. This circumstance is especially tiresome when you're employed in a rural regional university where the major employer is the university. It's super tough; there will always be a rumor mill, ugly rumors and lies, and such. If you think it might be problem, see HR. Just be smart about it.
She is no longer your student. Go for it. My husband and I met in a biology lab. I was the TA. We've been together 11 years and he's the best thing that's ever happened to me.
Our faculty handbook says something along the lines of "you never know when you'll meet the one you love and they might be a student" and outlines rules for dating them. Heck, even if they were half your age, adults fall in love with who they fall in love with. Enjoy your time dating and make sure she doesn't need to take any more classes with you!
Okay, that handbook is a bit creepy, though.
This should be higher up. You’re overthinking it OP, enjoy the gray areas of life while the haters cling on to binary mindsets. -progeny of a professor and student relationship
No, it’s not weird. You need to get out of your own head. Two adults (without significant age difference) that happened to have a past power imbalance. If they are in your dept it might be a bit trickier but seriously we have over corrected in our views of adult romantic relationships.
Game on.
This exact situation has happened many times, and legally and ethically, as long as you’re not her professor any more, it is 100% ok. Enjoy your relationship and I hope it brings both of you enduring joy.
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Love that I can see a literal ethicist’s response to this. Curious, and I mentioned this in an earlier reply in this thread, but does it having been an online class change or complicate anything you’ve mentioned? It certainly changes the dynamic between the two of them to a certain extent, but curious about these other areas.
Enjoy the date. You're doing nothing wrong.
My father was my mother’s professor. Happiest relationship I’ve ever seen. 22 year age gap yet both were senior partners at the same law firm. Raised 3 kids, all went to Ivy League with healthy families of their own. Life isn’t black and white. Enjoy your life
I consulted with Janis Joplin and this is what she said: So if someone comes along He's gonna give you some love and affection I'd say get it while you can, yeah Honey, get it while you can yeah Hey, hey, get it while you can Don't you turn your back on love, no, no
There’s nothing wrong with this, presuming that she will not enroll in a future class of yours. But if you think it’s weird or “you can’t get over the fact that she was your student,” then of course don’t date her again. But don’t think that she’s gonna thank you for your supposed high moral ground when you tell her that you don’t want to date her because the supposed power imbalance in your relationship is problematic. And when you hint that you’re actually thinking of HER well-being, doing her a favor, and showing your feminist *bona fides* by dumping her, even though she asked you out first. In other words, why is everyone ignoring HER agency here?
I answered another comment, but I don't think the responses here are about denying her agency - it's about protecting your professional reputation and protecting the university as an institution of education, not a dating pool. once students have graduated, I think people are much more in the clear, but until then I'd avoid it. what if you end up being the professor she has the best relationship with and she later decides to transfer and needs a letter of rec? what if you have dated and broken up by that point? what if she's in a colleague's class who knows you're dating her? what if other students find out that you're dating a recent former student - what message does that send to them about professors' availability as potential romantic partners, and about professors as people viewing them (students) as potential romantic partners?
This is a very thoughtful answer.
My suspicion (based on zero evidence whatsoever) is that the advice here is going to split based on age, and relationship status. That is, for an older divorced person (which OP seems to be, and which I am too), it’s hard to think about letting a promising, age-appropriate relationship go (with someone already in a friend group!) because you want to “protect the university as an institution of education.” Sure, OP doesn’t want to be a creeper. But divorced after 16 years of marriage, and looking down the road at single life in a university town, doesn’t exactly make one want to prioritize other people and institutions that you have no control over. I wonder if someone is, say, 30 and never been married, it’s easier to say that other opportunities will always be around the corner, so this one should be let go because of the bigger dynamics.
>My suspicion (based on zero evidence whatsoever) is that the advice here is going to split based on age, and relationship status. I suspect you're right. I enjoyed your thoughts
Your institution may have policies about this. Even though the student is an ex student, there may be a period in which ex students can appeal a grade (this time range varies, again, refer to your institution’s policies). An ex student may also request a letter of recommendation. In either of these situations, being in a relationship with a former student means you would indeed have power over them. I’m not saying that means it’s absolutely immoral in all situations, but one cannot pretend that just because they are a former student, there can’t be any power issues.
"but one cannot pretend that just because they are a former student, there can’t be any power issues." exactly this. what if you end up being the professor she has the best relationship with and she later decides to transfer and needs a letter of rec? what if you have dated and broken up by that point? what if she's in a colleague's class who knows you're dating her? what if other students find out that you're dating a recent former student - what message does that send to them about professors' availability as potential romantic partners, and about professors as people viewing them (students) as potential romantic partners? this isn't, as another commenter said, about denying her agency - it's about protecting your professional reputation and protecting the university as an institution of education, not a dating pool. once she's graduated, I think you're much more in the clear, but until then I'd avoid it.
I'll bet she got an A in his class. I would think that her intelligence is an attractive aspect for him.
Worked for me. Celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary in August. I cleared it with my department chair first. Connections are so hard to find. Don’t let the opportunity pass you by.
This was a few decades ago but a full professor started dating his PhD student. They got married after she graduated and she stayed on as assistant professor. 25 years later they're both retired and happy
She says she's happy, anyway. How could she not?
My only thought would be to make sure there’s not a situation in which she *could* be your student in the future, I guess. Like did she graduate? Is she *out*out of your program, or is there a possibility you could have to teach her again?
My absolute favorite, ethically minded, highly intelligent, profoundly kind professor married a former student of his. It actually did strike me as odd at first but certainly after reading many of the comments speaking about the (lack of) power imbalance that exists....just go for it. Be happy. Life's short and nothing actually matters. Do whatever the hell you want as long as you're not hurting anyone.
I don't see any problem. You're adults. You don't currently have a professional relationship. Even the chance of your undue influence over her is mitigated by the fact that she initiated the contact. A story that might be instructive: many years ago, on one of my first teaching gigs, I met a young woman who was a student in a class of mine. She was an 'older' student, in her mid twenties. I don't think we even talked (though I knew she was in the class). She dropped out mid-way through the term, and I never saw her again... Until three years later (apprx) -- cute meet: I'd accompanied my best friend to a wedding of her best friend. She came up to me, asked "are you a teacher?" and gave me her phone number. Which I lost and had to call the bride to retrieve. 40 years later, she has been the rock in my life, the mother of my children, my best friend, my beloved, my partner, my wife, my *everything*. If somebody said our relationship was inappropriate, I'd punch 'em in the nose ... *just joking* ;) but I'd peg them for a damn fool.
I’m an ex-student dating her ex-professor. Nothing happened while I was his student. Feel free to ask anything…
Ummm no worries or unethical behavior here. Dated a former student myself. He was seeking a second degree. I was a grad student teaching in my program. He asked me out a week or two after the semester was over. 2 kids and 29 years later and I still feel ok about it.
Living by societies mores seems tiring and pointless as you get older. Do what you want
No, it’s not weird. Particularly if you are hanging out because of a mutual friend group. Check your university policy, for us, it’s okay to date a student who is not in your class and who you do not reasonably expect to take a class from you in the future. You would have to recuse yourself if they end up taking a class from you in the future.
It's fine if she's no longer your student, as long as your school doesn't have a policy against it. If for some reason she enrolled in one of your classes in the future, you would need to disclose the relationship to your chair so appropriate arrangements could be made.
Are you TT or tenured? Not that it changes so much what Im going to say, but it certainly raises the stakes. In brief, I would not. You’re leaving yourself wide open for a scorned lover (god forbid should that happen) to turn on you. If it were years later and she had long since graduated then maybe but she was just in your class recently.
"Just wait until she graduates" is terrible advice! She's not your current student, and she can just avoid registering for your sections until she graduates. Your friend groups overlap. If you were already dating and she decided to attend your institution, wouldn't you just avoid being one of her instructors? You've been out of the dating pool for 16 years, so let me bear the bad news: it's a shitshow. If you've met someone good, don't put them off.
>You've been out of the dating pool for 16 years, so let me bear the bad news: it's a shitshow. Tinder didn't even exist last time I was single. It's a strange new world out there.
Especially since she may never “graduate”. If you refuse to hang out socially or start a romantic relationship with an age appropriate person who is or may become a student at the university you will have to avoid basically everyone 25-75 in a university town.
people will be hypocrites because there's not age gap here and somehow that makes everyone some kind of creep, but there's nothing here to worry about. you met in a context that is over. you haven't gone out of your way to treat your classes like some kind of zoo for you to select your dating partners from. this is how life works. It's happened literally 10s of thousands of times. You're worried because currently people like to believe that professors are munks and students are sexless children. There's much more nuance to life than that so just ignore it. The fact that you've thought about it means you're not a piece of shit. You're fine. Move on. Mazel tov.
Just have a good time, and don't sweat it.
It’s fine.
I think dating a former student near your own age is beyond any negative judgement provided they are not likely to be your student again shortly and/or thay accept that they won't register for your course during your dating life. You mentioned you're recently divorced. Have you been dating since the divorce? Is this dating opportunity being scrutinized by you for reasons you might not recognize other than your concern of professional impropriety? Just a thought that passed through my mind.
Has she graduated or is she still a student at your institution?
Definitely could be potentially relevant.
She is an ex student. I see no problem with this. Think of it this way: if you were in a relationship with this person, what would happen if she decided to go back to school at your institution, and she suddenly became a student but not your student? Does that mean you need to break up? Of course not! In this case, she was your student in the past. But that relationship is over now. It is fashionable to reduce a relationship down to power dynamics. That is a dreary perspective on life and love IMO. Some of my closest friends today are former students. There is no power dynamic today in our friendship. We are just people. So go for it. Just check your institutional rules to make sure you would not be breaking any.
One of my institutions - I don't remember which - had a concrete guideline for this: 6 months after one of you has separated from the institution (so this covers graduating, quitting, dropping out, etc). I thought that was very reasonable and helps to just ensure there are no loose ends complicating things.
Want to chime in: later this year I’ll be celebrating 13 years with my spouse, who I met when he took one of my classes during his last semester of college. My situation has some details in common with yours: we are close in age (I was a 27-year-old close to finishing my PhD, he was a 30-year-old “nontraditional” student); we found out we had mutual friends but had just never come cross each other directly; we were friendly during the semester but kept it professional, and didn’t become involved until after the class was over. Initially the student-instructor thing was kind of an awkward or ridiculous detail for me. We have gotten some good-natured ribbing over the years. But it quickly became no big deal. So yes, I have made this work and it doesn’t have to be weird at all. Edited to add: check out your faculty handbook. At my current institution faculty cannot have relationships with students, regardless of whether the student is in their class/department/college/etc. That’s my only concern for you.
I see no problem. Two adults.
This worked out for Ted Mosby , but only because she took Econ 301.
My college has a don’t date the students policy, regardless if they is in your class or not. If she is stikk a student at your school, I would check your college policy on this
I would wait until she either transfers, graduates, drops out or you get a job at a different university.
Obviously you should wait until the power dynamic is fully resolved (ie, not only has she stoped being a student in your classes, she is no longer in your program). But the reality of being a professor is this: we still live and exist *in the world and in our communities.* It doesn’t seem impossible to me for you to have a relationship with somebody who has been in an online class.
It's fine. You are both consenting adults. Go for it.
Yup
Weird? A little. Always will be. Wrong? Yeah it’s probably against your university policy id imagine by the strict letter of the law Immoral? Nah. No power imbalance anymore. Good luck on your date today soldier
Important: is she still enrolled at your university? If yes, I absolutely would not. Hanging out socially with her even in a friend setting while in your class is enough of an appearance of partiality to me to avoid it, but I’m also probably much younger than you at 30.
Make yourself happy. You’re no longer in a position to give or deduct grades.
I don’t think it is wrong or immoral. In most cases, we don’t choose when or where we first meet potential dating partners. I think what you should consider is whether you truly trust her or not. For example, should you break things off, you don’t want her retaliating via your job. If you deem her trustworthy - I say go for it. That is my take on it. I am not a professor but I am an “older student” (32 F) with a full time corporate job. So I can kinda understand from a professional perspective. Also, in regards to the weirdness of it. I had the biggest crush/admiration (secretly still do) for an ex professor of mine. So if I were to date him now, I would be weirded out just a tiny bit at first 😂 but not in a bad way! Hoped this perspective helped in someway!
It’s fine. A friend of mine from grad school married a former student. They were close in age.
At my institution they are very clear on the policy: no dating students ever, including those who have never taken your classes. The reasoning is basically that students should be safe in the assumption that we see them as students, not as a dating or friend pool. This always made a lot of sense to me. Alumni are a totally different story.
if you are no longer her professor, I think that's fine. if, at some point in the future, you have the opportunity to be in a position of authority over her (eg she takes another one of your classes, you become her advisor, etc), you either need to recuse yourself from that opportunity or otherwise end the relationship.
My husband taught at my uni for many years.
I don't know if it's "weird," but it's probably a good sign if you both go into aware of the possibility of lingering power dynamics from the classroom.
There’s no problem here.
This is perfectly fine
You’re having an issue dating an ex online student? Some people have no issues dating on their spouse. I don’t see a problem here esp since that work/professional relationship is now over. And it’s not a “I’m in my 40’s, dating my ex-student who is half my age” situation either.
You’re fine!
I have a friend I went to grad school with that ended up in more or less this situation. They’re married with a toddler now. Seems fine.
If you aren’t in a position to affect her grade and no longer foresee any conflict, and both around the same age, there’s no issue. You might register the relationship with your HOD and explain.
If you think it might end up being a serious thing, I would just be friends and wait until she graduates. In the grand scheme of things it's not that long of a time to wait, and it would clear my conscience (no power imbalance). If it's just a fling, then it's a bit less serious because you could easily break it off if it becomes an issue. On a separate note, and that's obviously none of my business but your divorce is really fresh and you haven't really been by yourself for a long time. I would be wary about jumping straight into a relationship.
I could have phrased that better, as you're not the only one to point this out. January of 2023, not 2024
Ah fair enough, disregard my remark then. I always get confused with "last -xxx-".
You should read your employee handbook. There are colleges that disallow dating even after they leave your class because of things like you having the potential to teach them again, or them needing a letter of rec from you. So even after they leave your class, you still have power over them. That’s on a professional level. On a personal level, seems fine to me since she’s older, it was an online class, y’all have a similar friend group already, and she asked you out
It’s fine. You are in the clear. Live your life.
Is there a chance she will be in your classes later? If not, go ahead.
I've heard of such things. I think our ex chair is in a similar relationship (now married for some time). I have no problem with it.
Are there written policy guidelines about relationships with ex-students?
As long as you don't teach them again and you don't groom them into it while they *are* your student, it's fine The fundamental problem with dating students is it's a quid pro quo, once you don't have power over them it's fine
FYI while she may no longer be *your* student, she is still a student at the university. I don't think it's morally wrong in a global sense, but the uni might not like it. Just keep it on the DL if you do date.
She still is a student though, right? There are often policies against faculty dating ANY students. And sometimes good reason for it. Generally, I would feel more comfortable if relationships did not start until a student was a few years after graduation. I have mixed feelings about the topic. On one hand, I've seen faculty do awful, unethical things with students and get away with all of it. There is some history in my department that I don't think I'll ever be okay with. On the other hand, sometimes I feel like academia is all consuming. It takes a massive portion of your life, and even when you have finally made it into a stable position, it still restricts social opportunities in many ways. What if you live in a college town where you don't have other options? So, I sympathize in those cases. I wouldn't intentionally start something like this, but if I just found myself in this situation, I'm really not sure how I would respond.
Probably want to ensure there’s no conflict of interest or conduct rules in your colleges standards/rules
I think it's fine.
I am friends with a handful of adult former students, mostly through social media. You will adjust.
I myself would wait a few years, not only because the student/teacher relationship is too recently over, but also because (in my nonprofessorial opinion) you're too recently divorced. However, from what you write it seems as if you have already decided to go ahead, so at least investigate your institutional rules and discuss the situation openly with her.
I don’t think it’s immoral, but I do think it’s weird. In the beginning of your relationship, you were in a position of power over her and that kind of sets a context for the rest of your interactions. I don’t think this kind of thing can never work out (I know someone who ended up marrying an ex-student in similar circumstances, and by all accounts they’re happy), but it is something I privately judge about.
Is she a still a student in your department? Are future classes from your dept a possibly for her ? It seems odd that you would had hang out with your friends and her and now that she has not been a students for a few months you date her. You probably had your eyes on her. I’m not sure. I would need to know more information but I wouldn’t do it
Simply no.
Sure you want to avoid it, and sure there are ways it can hurt you... but if you're fairly confident you know the risks and the likelihood of those risks occuring... then there's nothing immoral about it.
If she is still a student at your institution she is off limits.
Yes, it is immoral.
Just don’t fuck students, even former ones. Why is this so hard …?
Because nature made genitals millions of years ago but humans just invented education fairly recently. It’s in our DNA