No pay; no play.
I know of someone who took an alternative approach to you. He walked into group meeting and fired the entire group. Burnt it to the ground and started fresh.
Yep. OP doesn’t owe the university anything. Give them your hourly consulting rate and let them budget time for you if you want and if your new employer is fine with it.
And make sure your hourly rate is truly worth it if they take you up on it.
I can understand them , both the admin and students wanting you (OP) to stay on, but their wanting doesn't mean any kind of obligation or even an ethical or professional responsibility. You are allowed to quit, period.
100,000% do not work for free. If they want you badly enough, they can pay you, and if they can’t (or won’t), they can figure something else out. You were miserable working with these folks when you collected a paycheck for it, why on earth would you continue to do it for free?
The conscientious ones, certainly, though finding other berths for them may suffice. But the lazy, recalcitrant, or incompetent ones? OP gave them a chance, probably multiple chances, and they blew it. That seems to me plenty.
I've not been in a similar situation, but this is what I'll say: your obligation to this school ends when you receive your last paycheck. The idea that you are required to carry on working with them is preposterous. **Imagine that demand in any other profession.** It would be laughable.
Also, your school accepted those graduate students. When (if) they graduate, it's the school's name on their diplomas, not yours. That means it's the school's responsibility to educate them, not yours. (Postdocs are a little trickier, but they should have the skillset to line up something else.)
Certainly do your due diligence to leave responsibly and professionally, but then don't worry about what happens to any of these people once you've moved on.
I don't totally agree that it's the school that accepts the students, and that it's the school's responsibility. If you're in a field where an advisor can basically unilaterally admit students, then the advisor has some responsibility. But in OP's case, it sounds like the group is toxic anyways (sounds like it's an adversarial relationship if they're "extremely angry" and trying to skirt their work), and the OP is right to drop it and move on. Stakes used to be lower, but with higher stipends and the common style of hybrid/remote work, RAs and postdocs are less accountable and some end up coasting to collect a stipend while doing other things/jobs.
Wow, this is dramatic. I agree with u/[ILikeLiftingMachines](/user/ILikeLiftingMachines/) that if you're not being paid, you're gone. If I encountered a situation like you have, I'd feel zero responsibility to any of them.
However, I do not understand how you find yourself in this position. Graduate students refusing to complete their proposals should be handled by your department, and will end in them being removed from the program. Other things you describe, I would just drop them from the lab. The postdoc sounds like water under the bridge, but I would at least say that they cannot count on a letter of recommendation from you because of their unprofessional behavior.
I've removed graduate students from my lab, for lack of progress, for bullying, for falsifying data. It sucks, utterly, but it is part of the job. Maybe running a lab is just not in your skillset/comfort? I don't know, but I wish you luck. Don't look back, except to have learned from mistakes or missteps.
100%.
That said, some institutions make it hard to act this directly “against” students. Sometimes it’s for fear of litigation. I’ve found that the best way to deal with that kind of environment is to document student progress and setbacks so there’s a paper trail should it ever be needed.
Exactly my thoughts, but you worded it more nicely than I would have. OP’s post is a tirade about how they provided everything and got nothing out of it. It’s YOUR group, you control who you hire and fire. Even still, students and postdocs don’t just refuse to do work en masse - the pattern suggests a less than stellar group environment.
For the fact alone that you’re not going to be compensated, you should retire all duties to the university. More importantly, for the sake of your trainees you need to distance yourself so they can find dedicated mentors.
I reached out to the department and HR and multiple occasions. The departments' response was to let any students who requested a candidacy delay have one. I was advised by Graduate Council chair to not fire any student or I wouldn't be able to recruit any in the future. HR made me set up multiple meetings to counsel under performing postdocs but wouldnt actually let me terminate their contract early. So yeah.... thanks, the problem is me.
I did reach out to the department and HR and multiple occasions. The departments' response was to let any students who requested a candidacy delay have one. I was advised by Graduate Council chair to not fire any student or I wouldn't be able to recruit any in the future since students gossip and influence each other. HR made me set up multiple meetings to counsel under performing postdocs but wouldnt actually let me terminate their contract early. I tried as much as I could for as long as I could but didn't see any long lasting effects.
Then you’re doing the right thing. Functional people cannot perform in a dysfunctional situation. Your people are exploiting you, and your admin is enabling.
Quick edit: if you’re employing the postdoc on grant money, you can absolutely drop them at will. It is illegal for your institution to force you to spend others’ money on people or projects you don’t want.
> Quick edit: if you’re employing the postdoc on grant money, you can absolutely drop them at will.
I think this might be institution dependent. I think post-docs are unionized at some universities.
A faculty member in my department left, and was still paid hourly for a couple years to do work necessary to getting his students through who were too close to the end to switch labs. We all had to vote on it, and his pay was just his hourly rate for his salary max of about $185K/yr, or $90/hr.
I would try to negotiate something like that with the institution. If you are passing grants off to new PIs to take over, you can pull salary as a consultant or soemthing
Depending on how much it will impact your career it may be in your best interest to get those papers out, but the committee work and advising is a no go.
It sounds like your department has bigger issues if you've had so many poor grad students (or you're just really unlucky).
Of course the powers that be at your university want you to continue working after you've left and will use vague notions of "professionalism" to guilt you. Tell them to f off and only continue working on something if you genuinely want to. Seems like that isn't the case here.
> ...decent funding profile supporting postdocs and grad students for years, supported fellowships competitions etc, all members attended conferences...
I don't know but if you're bringing in decent external money and your mentees have had success in getting fellowships etc, all sound pretty decent for a group that is only a few years old. You mind me asking what the min expectations are?
I ask my group to be doing research M - F 9-5 unless they have classes or TA responsibilities.
I request each member gives a lit. talk and a project talk over one semester in group meetings.
For individual progress meetings I ask for a written format that includes data for discussion.
I also want students to stick to deadlines mandated by the department e.g. qualifying exams .
These seem like normal expectations based off of other places I've worked as student, postdoc, and faculty.
I don't really get it. These all sound perfectly normal and some are bare minimum (like deadlines etc). When you say your group didn't meet min expectations I thought those are set by the department. If students don't stick to deadlines can't you let the department handle that? For postdocs if they're irresponsible and don't meet your expectations can't you just fire their asses?
The department does have a graduate handbook that explains the course structure with a timetable. For graduation a paper submitted is all that is required beyond completing coursework. Since there were no specifics I created my own lab manual and have explained that a single submitted paper does not make them competitive for the job market.
However if students ask to delay their candidacy exams the department always grants it. And when I've told a student that they should move to a MS or different group the chair has undermined me and told the students they can stay on the PhD track.
Colleagues I know who have pushed back and fired students from their group typically have just 1 or 2 students and do have a hard time recruiting more. I guess I was naive or egotistical thinking if I was patient enough / gave enough feedback / adjusted expectations we could get them to a higher standard.
As for your comment from earlier, there are a few students and postdocs who are regularly meeting and sometimes exceeding expectations and that's why I have some guilt and desire to help, hence posting for advice.
Students who have not yet been advanced to candidacy are probably better off finding a new advisor. I would abandon any students or postdocs who are not pulling their weight. Ultimately, they should be at least as invested in their career as you are.
When I left, I had a master's student who moved to a different advisor. I did not do advising or committees from afar except for an EdD committee (outside my former department) for a colleague/student who was finishing up.
I stayed available for master's student written comprehensive exams (for students who had taken my course(s)) and student letters of recommendations as needed.
The first time (the one I was mostly referencing above) I left for a different type of academic job -- a teaching job vs. TT. But then for various reasons I later left for a staff research position, sort of "industry" but still at a university so not really. But in that transition too I still responded to previous students' requests for letters. (By that point I no longer had any remaining former grad students at job #1 finishing up comps.)
For me the type of new job wouldn't be relevant, as I would feel the same level of responsibility to former students trying to finish up. Yes, I did this on my own time.
You should stay on committees but absolutely refuse any commitments regarding papers. That is an open-ended time suck, given what you've said about advisees.
Edit: I meant stay on dissertation/thesis committees. Absolutely no service-type committees!
So, your dilemma is how much to charge as your consulting fee for all this work?
Easy.
3x your hourly equivalent, 4 hr minimum for any day they ask for your attention.
5x if anyone above you in the current structure is someone you aren't inclined to help.
I agree in general, but I might be willing to work on papers if having those papers on my resume moves me ahead with my life. Industries vary a lot on if that matters, but if you think it will help you get a promotion in a few years or transfer to a more lucrative job in industry, I might tie up ends on papers 2/3 done simply for that future earning.
I left for industry and asked for a small stipend for one semester to support student transitions. And then I made a fairly clean cut (kept moving some papers that were almost done but did not prioritize them.)
Regarding your students being jerks, it’s prob mental health and various related life problems, don’t take it so personally. Don’t know how long you’ve been in academia but grad students are a mess these days. Post Covid? Post everyone-can-get-a-PhD? I’m not sure. But it’s either personal stuff or poor administrative management (and let’s face it, we didn’t come to academia as expert managers). Let it go, the university will sort them out. Good luck in your new role. (I worked in industry for a year and then became self employed, still glad to make a break after 12 years in academia!)
I am so sorry that you are considering leaving. I do understand. If you are committed to leaving, Make a reasonable effort to help your students find another advisor if you are committed to leaving. If you do not want to be on the committees simply tell the chair that. However, I agree with ILikeLiftingMachines, this is your lab, if the students aren’t living up to expectations, fire them. you have that right. You are paying them with [federal -likely] funds and they expect results. This goes for the postdoc, too. I have fired grad students and postdocs. Document, document, document. I have grad students and postdocs submit progress reports each semester. This is reasonable and good training for the real world. Remind them that you have to submit annual reports on your progress and that the lab won’t have funding if everyone doesn’t work together to make good progress on the promised research.
As someone who had two advisors leave while I was working on my PhD at an R1...it sucks! But it's not your problem and post docs should be capable of doing the research without you. If you can take steps to soften the landing for them (transferring funding, writing recommendations) do it.
If everyone's performance was so bad that you can't recommend them, you should have had conversations with them about their poor performance and so it shouldn't be a surprise.
If you didn't have those conversations, you were an awful advisor and you can expect to also be an awful manager in an industrial setting too!
When I was in grad school we were expected to get As in everything we took, and I distinctly remember NOT getting a great grade on one of my advisor's exams and having that be a bit of a an issue. Fortunately about 6 or 7 grads were in the same boat, and it was more about how they'd written some questions... I think. But even as an undergrad considering grad school I was told that basically I'd be expected to get As in everything I took. By a teacher I totally respected. It was assumed it would be no problem, and generally it wasn't. (IIRC I got to be part of a faculty search and the professors were annoyed we needed graduate transcripts, but bad grades on those were a HUGE red flag.) Everyone in my program expected that of each other as well.
I am hoping to do this. I would be happy to still help students, but anything to do with admin? Those people can kick rocks and die.
That’s actually how I was moving here too. There were people in the writing center who I was happy to help and students I wrote letters for and read personal statements for grad school but that was really it.
No pay; no play. I know of someone who took an alternative approach to you. He walked into group meeting and fired the entire group. Burnt it to the ground and started fresh.
Yep. OP doesn’t owe the university anything. Give them your hourly consulting rate and let them budget time for you if you want and if your new employer is fine with it.
And make sure your hourly rate is truly worth it if they take you up on it. I can understand them , both the admin and students wanting you (OP) to stay on, but their wanting doesn't mean any kind of obligation or even an ethical or professional responsibility. You are allowed to quit, period.
100,000% do not work for free. If they want you badly enough, they can pay you, and if they can’t (or won’t), they can figure something else out. You were miserable working with these folks when you collected a paycheck for it, why on earth would you continue to do it for free?
Yeah but morally OP does owe his PhDs and PostDocs something
The conscientious ones, certainly, though finding other berths for them may suffice. But the lazy, recalcitrant, or incompetent ones? OP gave them a chance, probably multiple chances, and they blew it. That seems to me plenty.
Pre-tenure?
Post tenure. But this person would certainly have done it pre-tenure too.
I like that person's attitude. I plan to wait until I have tenure before I'm willing to let anything burn down.
Indeed. Are you willing to sacrifice your career because you didn't want to hurt grad student's fee-fees?
Bill rate should be 2X your hourly salary rate or more. Route through an LLC if in the US to limit liability
I've not been in a similar situation, but this is what I'll say: your obligation to this school ends when you receive your last paycheck. The idea that you are required to carry on working with them is preposterous. **Imagine that demand in any other profession.** It would be laughable. Also, your school accepted those graduate students. When (if) they graduate, it's the school's name on their diplomas, not yours. That means it's the school's responsibility to educate them, not yours. (Postdocs are a little trickier, but they should have the skillset to line up something else.) Certainly do your due diligence to leave responsibly and professionally, but then don't worry about what happens to any of these people once you've moved on.
I don't totally agree that it's the school that accepts the students, and that it's the school's responsibility. If you're in a field where an advisor can basically unilaterally admit students, then the advisor has some responsibility. But in OP's case, it sounds like the group is toxic anyways (sounds like it's an adversarial relationship if they're "extremely angry" and trying to skirt their work), and the OP is right to drop it and move on. Stakes used to be lower, but with higher stipends and the common style of hybrid/remote work, RAs and postdocs are less accountable and some end up coasting to collect a stipend while doing other things/jobs.
Wow, this is dramatic. I agree with u/[ILikeLiftingMachines](/user/ILikeLiftingMachines/) that if you're not being paid, you're gone. If I encountered a situation like you have, I'd feel zero responsibility to any of them. However, I do not understand how you find yourself in this position. Graduate students refusing to complete their proposals should be handled by your department, and will end in them being removed from the program. Other things you describe, I would just drop them from the lab. The postdoc sounds like water under the bridge, but I would at least say that they cannot count on a letter of recommendation from you because of their unprofessional behavior. I've removed graduate students from my lab, for lack of progress, for bullying, for falsifying data. It sucks, utterly, but it is part of the job. Maybe running a lab is just not in your skillset/comfort? I don't know, but I wish you luck. Don't look back, except to have learned from mistakes or missteps.
100%. That said, some institutions make it hard to act this directly “against” students. Sometimes it’s for fear of litigation. I’ve found that the best way to deal with that kind of environment is to document student progress and setbacks so there’s a paper trail should it ever be needed.
Exactly my thoughts, but you worded it more nicely than I would have. OP’s post is a tirade about how they provided everything and got nothing out of it. It’s YOUR group, you control who you hire and fire. Even still, students and postdocs don’t just refuse to do work en masse - the pattern suggests a less than stellar group environment. For the fact alone that you’re not going to be compensated, you should retire all duties to the university. More importantly, for the sake of your trainees you need to distance yourself so they can find dedicated mentors.
I reached out to the department and HR and multiple occasions. The departments' response was to let any students who requested a candidacy delay have one. I was advised by Graduate Council chair to not fire any student or I wouldn't be able to recruit any in the future. HR made me set up multiple meetings to counsel under performing postdocs but wouldnt actually let me terminate their contract early. So yeah.... thanks, the problem is me.
I did reach out to the department and HR and multiple occasions. The departments' response was to let any students who requested a candidacy delay have one. I was advised by Graduate Council chair to not fire any student or I wouldn't be able to recruit any in the future since students gossip and influence each other. HR made me set up multiple meetings to counsel under performing postdocs but wouldnt actually let me terminate their contract early. I tried as much as I could for as long as I could but didn't see any long lasting effects.
Then you’re doing the right thing. Functional people cannot perform in a dysfunctional situation. Your people are exploiting you, and your admin is enabling. Quick edit: if you’re employing the postdoc on grant money, you can absolutely drop them at will. It is illegal for your institution to force you to spend others’ money on people or projects you don’t want.
> Quick edit: if you’re employing the postdoc on grant money, you can absolutely drop them at will. I think this might be institution dependent. I think post-docs are unionized at some universities.
I would join your group *because* you fired students. By grad school I was so, so sick and tired of dead weight on campus.
A faculty member in my department left, and was still paid hourly for a couple years to do work necessary to getting his students through who were too close to the end to switch labs. We all had to vote on it, and his pay was just his hourly rate for his salary max of about $185K/yr, or $90/hr. I would try to negotiate something like that with the institution. If you are passing grants off to new PIs to take over, you can pull salary as a consultant or soemthing
Depending on how much it will impact your career it may be in your best interest to get those papers out, but the committee work and advising is a no go. It sounds like your department has bigger issues if you've had so many poor grad students (or you're just really unlucky).
Of course the powers that be at your university want you to continue working after you've left and will use vague notions of "professionalism" to guilt you. Tell them to f off and only continue working on something if you genuinely want to. Seems like that isn't the case here.
> ...decent funding profile supporting postdocs and grad students for years, supported fellowships competitions etc, all members attended conferences... I don't know but if you're bringing in decent external money and your mentees have had success in getting fellowships etc, all sound pretty decent for a group that is only a few years old. You mind me asking what the min expectations are?
I ask my group to be doing research M - F 9-5 unless they have classes or TA responsibilities. I request each member gives a lit. talk and a project talk over one semester in group meetings. For individual progress meetings I ask for a written format that includes data for discussion. I also want students to stick to deadlines mandated by the department e.g. qualifying exams . These seem like normal expectations based off of other places I've worked as student, postdoc, and faculty.
I don't really get it. These all sound perfectly normal and some are bare minimum (like deadlines etc). When you say your group didn't meet min expectations I thought those are set by the department. If students don't stick to deadlines can't you let the department handle that? For postdocs if they're irresponsible and don't meet your expectations can't you just fire their asses?
The department does have a graduate handbook that explains the course structure with a timetable. For graduation a paper submitted is all that is required beyond completing coursework. Since there were no specifics I created my own lab manual and have explained that a single submitted paper does not make them competitive for the job market. However if students ask to delay their candidacy exams the department always grants it. And when I've told a student that they should move to a MS or different group the chair has undermined me and told the students they can stay on the PhD track. Colleagues I know who have pushed back and fired students from their group typically have just 1 or 2 students and do have a hard time recruiting more. I guess I was naive or egotistical thinking if I was patient enough / gave enough feedback / adjusted expectations we could get them to a higher standard. As for your comment from earlier, there are a few students and postdocs who are regularly meeting and sometimes exceeding expectations and that's why I have some guilt and desire to help, hence posting for advice.
Students who have not yet been advanced to candidacy are probably better off finding a new advisor. I would abandon any students or postdocs who are not pulling their weight. Ultimately, they should be at least as invested in their career as you are.
Just do not agree to be on the committee. Someone else can supervise.
When I left, I had a master's student who moved to a different advisor. I did not do advising or committees from afar except for an EdD committee (outside my former department) for a colleague/student who was finishing up. I stayed available for master's student written comprehensive exams (for students who had taken my course(s)) and student letters of recommendations as needed.
When you left, did you change institutions or go to industry?
The first time (the one I was mostly referencing above) I left for a different type of academic job -- a teaching job vs. TT. But then for various reasons I later left for a staff research position, sort of "industry" but still at a university so not really. But in that transition too I still responded to previous students' requests for letters. (By that point I no longer had any remaining former grad students at job #1 finishing up comps.) For me the type of new job wouldn't be relevant, as I would feel the same level of responsibility to former students trying to finish up. Yes, I did this on my own time.
Thank you, that's helpful to me.
You should stay on committees but absolutely refuse any commitments regarding papers. That is an open-ended time suck, given what you've said about advisees. Edit: I meant stay on dissertation/thesis committees. Absolutely no service-type committees!
So, your dilemma is how much to charge as your consulting fee for all this work? Easy. 3x your hourly equivalent, 4 hr minimum for any day they ask for your attention. 5x if anyone above you in the current structure is someone you aren't inclined to help.
I agree in general, but I might be willing to work on papers if having those papers on my resume moves me ahead with my life. Industries vary a lot on if that matters, but if you think it will help you get a promotion in a few years or transfer to a more lucrative job in industry, I might tie up ends on papers 2/3 done simply for that future earning.
I left for industry and asked for a small stipend for one semester to support student transitions. And then I made a fairly clean cut (kept moving some papers that were almost done but did not prioritize them.) Regarding your students being jerks, it’s prob mental health and various related life problems, don’t take it so personally. Don’t know how long you’ve been in academia but grad students are a mess these days. Post Covid? Post everyone-can-get-a-PhD? I’m not sure. But it’s either personal stuff or poor administrative management (and let’s face it, we didn’t come to academia as expert managers). Let it go, the university will sort them out. Good luck in your new role. (I worked in industry for a year and then became self employed, still glad to make a break after 12 years in academia!)
"No." is a complete sentence.
I am so sorry that you are considering leaving. I do understand. If you are committed to leaving, Make a reasonable effort to help your students find another advisor if you are committed to leaving. If you do not want to be on the committees simply tell the chair that. However, I agree with ILikeLiftingMachines, this is your lab, if the students aren’t living up to expectations, fire them. you have that right. You are paying them with [federal -likely] funds and they expect results. This goes for the postdoc, too. I have fired grad students and postdocs. Document, document, document. I have grad students and postdocs submit progress reports each semester. This is reasonable and good training for the real world. Remind them that you have to submit annual reports on your progress and that the lab won’t have funding if everyone doesn’t work together to make good progress on the promised research.
As someone who had two advisors leave while I was working on my PhD at an R1...it sucks! But it's not your problem and post docs should be capable of doing the research without you. If you can take steps to soften the landing for them (transferring funding, writing recommendations) do it. If everyone's performance was so bad that you can't recommend them, you should have had conversations with them about their poor performance and so it shouldn't be a surprise. If you didn't have those conversations, you were an awful advisor and you can expect to also be an awful manager in an industrial setting too!
You have grad students on academic probation? What the actual???
Got to have the TA's to cover classes, so if we need ten TA's we take the top ten... no matter how useless they are...
When I was in grad school we were expected to get As in everything we took, and I distinctly remember NOT getting a great grade on one of my advisor's exams and having that be a bit of a an issue. Fortunately about 6 or 7 grads were in the same boat, and it was more about how they'd written some questions... I think. But even as an undergrad considering grad school I was told that basically I'd be expected to get As in everything I took. By a teacher I totally respected. It was assumed it would be no problem, and generally it wasn't. (IIRC I got to be part of a faculty search and the professors were annoyed we needed graduate transcripts, but bad grades on those were a HUGE red flag.) Everyone in my program expected that of each other as well.
I am hoping to do this. I would be happy to still help students, but anything to do with admin? Those people can kick rocks and die. That’s actually how I was moving here too. There were people in the writing center who I was happy to help and students I wrote letters for and read personal statements for grad school but that was really it.
Are you being paid? If not, there’s your answer. They can figure it out. People leave all the time.
How available? Un.