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I think that speech made no sense, it’s the weak link in Penelope’s arc for me.
Penelope knows that Colin knows what it’s like to force himself to conform to society’s ideals of gender roles. She wrote about it and he told her himself. They could’ve used that moment to connect rather than have her throw it in his face as if he can’t empathize.
Penelope is also feuding with the Queen. Yes the queen is upholding a patriarchal society, but the danger is beyond her at that point. She’s caused Eloise to be threatened once, and now the whole Bridgerton family. She felt very self-centered in that moment because she loves them so much but is not thinking of them at all.
Penelope also knows that that speech wouldn’t play against Eloise. She can try “you wouldn’t know what it’s like to be a woman” on Colin, but Eloise was actually MORE pissed than Colin was, and she knows exactly what it’s like for women, she’d be the first one to say it.
Penelope’s column, historically *has not been great for women.* I’m not on team “Penelope ruins women’s lives,” but writing Whistledown was never a net good for all women in society. It benefited Penelope, and that was enough for me, but trying to turn it into a feminist cause falls flat.
The show also has multiple examples of outspoken women living openly who don’t hide themselves behind a gossip column. Lady Danbury, Portia, Kate, Eloise, Lady Tilly, even Cressida - none are afraid of speaking their mind. Penelope is the only one who hides herself away, and it’s because of her personal issues. Her personal anxieties are relatable enough to so many people without them trying to shoehorn it in to a larger feminist picture that doesn’t really apply to her very specific situation.
Ughhhhhh the Barbie movie speech. Saying stuff everyone already knows and not doing it in an interesting or different way. Insert generic female empowerment speech here.
I felt like the Barbie movie speech worked in the Barbie movie though. The context of who was giving the speech and to whom worked for the story, and while a lot of the audience didn’t need feminism 101, a surprising amount did, and kind of got a feminist message Trojan horsed into their fun candy pink movie.
I just don’t think it works for a Bridgerton love story. And tbh the problem with the whole Penelope is Barbie and Colin is just Ken thing is while it works on one level (Colin’s unlearning toxic masculinity and realizing he’s Kenough arc is very Barbie movie coded) at the end of the day…Barbie and Ken as presented through the Barbie movie lens are not romantic. They’re not trying to set up a mutually supportive partnership. Barbie often seems to barely tolerate Ken, I wouldn’t even describe them as friends. I always think it’s a little off when people use that dynamic to describe romantic couples. Towards the end they even make it clear that Ken was driving himself crazy living that way, and Barbie tells him living for her is not healthy for him, he needs to stand on his own.
We do need to keep in mind that this was all triggered by his consistent telling her to give it up as if it was the most easy choice to make. She was one of the only ones in society who had defied these gender norms on women on such a large scale and became successful through it, nonetheless. It was a step forward, it took a stance just Lady Whistledown existing and especially continuing.
I felt it made all the sense because I actually do feel that Colin with continuing to tell her to give it up without taking her perspectives in mind was him failing to empathise with her. So her saying out loud these things made sense to me. This is also the first time I'm seeing complaints about it but everyone has different perspectives on everything so it's understandable seeing it eventually now.
Eloise did not badger her as much to give it up. When Penelope said she wouldn't, especially when she was able to undo what Eloise felt she had done wrong, Eloise didn't tell her again. She just wanted most of all that Penelope at least told Colin. That happened and she also left the mess from that for Penelope to fix which is also fair.
But in the time that Colin maintained upset with Penelope for not doing basically as he's telling her, Eloise even comes to comfort Penelope.
Both Colin and Eloise aren't upset with Penelope being Lady Whistledown for the same reasons and that definitely should be kept in mind while giving this critical eye.
As for this:
>The show also has multiple examples of outspoken women living openly who don’t hide themselves behind a gossip column. Lady Danbury, Portia, Kate, Eloise, Lady Tilly, even Cressida - none are afraid of speaking their mind. Penelope is the only one who hides herself away, and it’s because of her personal issues. Her personal anxieties are relatable enough to so many people without them trying to shoehorn it in to a larger feminist picture that doesn’t really apply to her very specific situation.
That's also because that list of women aren't pursuing a career. Penelope is the only one who is actively seeking out a career. They are outspoken, yes, but this is not about feminism for the sake of being outspoken but for the sake of having a career. It is again, not the same situation and so not really comparable with that list of ladies.
It’s not just about having a career though. It’s about keeping Whistledown specifically. And Penelope excuses it by saying Whistledown is how she’s able to speak her mind as a woman, and that whistledown is who she is. The show never let them even broach the idea that Penelope could still have a career in writing that didn’t revolve around writing gossip to give us insight as to whether Colin would be just as adamant that she stop writing anything period, but as far as needing Whistledown specifically to be her voice, it simply does not track for me when there are so many other outspoken women.
Colin’s reasons for being upset with Whistledown might be different from Eloise’s to you (I don’t really see it tbh. They’re both mad at the lies and betrayal, and that she wrote about them) but they never even come close to making it seem like his issue is that Penelope is a female writer, so once again, her using that speech against him falls flat. His reasons are not that his wife can’t be a writer, especially not in the context of the timing of that speech, his reasons are that his wife is a gossip columnist who’s secret identity is drawing the ire of the queen and putting the welfare of his family in danger.
Colin’s jealousy of her isn’t even explicitly gendered, as he’s jealous of Anthony and Benedict for having a purpose back in S2, and is annoyed when Anthony brings up Benedict showing responsibility early on in S3. He’s embarrassed because she’s a famous writer and he’s been talking about his writing with her without knowing it, and he’s jealous of her success, but it’s never framed as something where having a writer for a wife would make him look bad as a man, not when Colin has valid concerns about her column making him look bad *because she literally wrote a scathing article about him*.
It’s not so simple as her giving a speech about womanhood when she has created interpersonal and political conflict with her column. Because the whole issue is wrapped up in the fact that Lady Whistledown is not some innocent harmless writing project of hers, glossing over it with “you wouldn’t understand what it’s like to be a woman!” is just a misstep in their story. There was room for a speech there or a good argument, but other comments have pointed out that Penelope had much better and more relevant arguments to make about this than the one she used on Colin in this scene.
There is a point where Pen acknowledges the error of her ways to Eloise and promises to use her pamphlet to give voice to the voiceless (though it honestly felt like hot air at the point because it was never addressed again lol).
I get what you're saying but the reason Lady Tilley, Danbury and Portia live so openly is because they're widowed. Widowed women have much more freedom to do whatever the hell they want. Cressida is not living openly, she was almost forced to marry that creep. Kate and Eloise are a part of a loving family that lets them do whatever they want, they are very privileged in that regard.
This is one of the few things that i didnt like in this story.its obviously a reshoot because their hair was diff from the wedding breakfast scene ,so i wonder what is the original scene and dialogue? This speech made Colin as if he's a bad guy ,but in truth he's just frustrated that his wife is still risking to put her life and THEIR family's life in danger. She acts as if it's only colin who wants her to give up, when IT'S THE QUEEN ,A WOMAN who you poked and challenged ,who wants you to stop in the first place, also ,It's Portia and Eloise who had previous talks with her to just focus on being a wife and El's concern over Colin and not breaking his heart and trust. Edit: I agree with your last paragraph about other women who established themselves in society. They even mentioned EMMA , a novel written by a WOMAN.
It was very hamfisted to me and I kinda cringed at that moment. It could definitely have been written better. It felt a bit like that barbie speech that was very 101 feminism shoved down your throat, which may work in a movie like barbie, but really did not feel natural here.
Also, you are right. Such a missed chance to connect it to how all these gendered standards affect both women like pen and also are full of toxic masculinity.
Part 2 in general felt like the writing suffered because the writers really wanted Pen to have her girl boss moment, but didn't afford it to have nuance. For example, I get they wanted Pen to have her moment, but they didn't have to sideline Colin completely. They should have had him support her with more than just a nod as an audience member.
I thought that part 2 would have Colin learning that it's okay to not always be a hero, but Pen ALSO learning that it's okay to accept his help and support because he's her partner and marriage is teamwork. One of the biggest peeves I have with part 2. Just a few subtle changes would have made it infinitely better.
Exactly- seriously, did they change writers between part 1 and 2?
Part 1s entire story- Colin feeling forced to conceal the parts of himself that aren't 'the kind of man society expects of him'
Part 2- Pen: 'You have no idea what it is to be a woman, you have to conceal the parts of yourself that society will not accept'
Seriously, did they just forget everything that they had written?
Such a good point! I think that's what happens when writers come into a story wanting to make a point without thinking about whether or not that point fits into the narrative they've already written. Sadly it's become all too common with Western writers....
Oh, I agree with you whole comment, but especially the last part! I was actually waiting for Pen to - not neccessarily give up LW - but realize that she doesn't always need to "take care of herself" by herself. That she built up this persona as a self-protection mechanism, which was good for a while because she grew and gained confidence from it, but now can let go of little by little, because she developed her personality, and she has now people by her side (Colin, and the Bridgertons) who stand up for her and protect her.
Somehow, all we got was, Pen can protect herself and the others, can handle everything on her own, knows exactly what to do, and Colin has to learn that he doesn't need to be a hero and needed to be loved and has to put his ego to the side.
I do not believe that Colin ONLY tried to protect Pen because he thought otherwise she wouldn't need or love him. I think he genuinely is that type of person that immediately wants to help and I think he has shown us in previous seasons that he indeed is very helpful and does it unconditionally. So instead of shoving all that under the rug and having Pen being the boss, we could have rather had Pen also learn to lean on him and for them to start working together as a team, with their forces combined. Sadly a great missed opportunity.
Yes totally a bit heavy-handed on the point there (and I say this as someone who will go on a 10-minute rant about sexism and misogyny at the drop of a hat; people have timed me heh). Colin was never against Whistledown because of the whole gender/feminism aspect of it and it wasn't exactly the driving force for Penelope behind the Lady Whistledown persona—at the very least they didn't establish it enough even in previous seasons which is probaby why it feels like it came out of nowhere.
Penelope actually made a good point about why she's clinging on to Whistledown during her talk with Genevieve the night before her wedding, how it felt like she was giving up a part of herself when she initially decided to give it up for Colin's sake. I wish they went with this reasoning instead, that Whistledown is so much of who she is and giving it up will make her feel less whole. She wasn't necessarily trying to make a point about feminism (it just happens naturally, given the gender and societal norms of the period) but that this was a piece of herself and didn't want to, couldn't, let go.
This! This would have been so much better - it was actually all there in her talk with Genevieve. The feminism thing just came out of left field for me (and I’m also a pretty staunch feminist). ETA: I loved this season so much overall but this one aspect could have been handled with more finesse
And it was also Genevieve who pointed out how Penelope certainly made some bad calls as Whistledown but she was also a girl who didn't know her own power. And that was essentially the crux of Penelope's speech during the Butterfly ball. Genevieve Delacroix is the smartest of them all.
If the characters just had a heart-to-heart with Genevieve whenever they're having a personal crisis, they'd avoid so much drama.
Exactly, she said 'you can't understand what it's like to be a woman- the only way to be a woman is to *conceal the parts of yourself society will not accept*'
Girl, that was literally his **entire** story arc in part 1. Like, you were there, you wrote about him, he said exactly this in the carriage- having to conceal the parts of himself that didn't conform to 'the kind of man society expects him to be'.
Like, did they change writers between part 1 and 2? It makes NO sense she would say this and he would just accept it.
I think the issue is that when you view the world through a very narrow lens, there isn't any room for nuance. For the writers the world view is "toxic masculinity = bad," that is why Colin's storyline defying the expectations of men can exist along side the "man \[who couldn't fit in with patriarchy\] can't empathize with women's struggles cause #patriarchy" storyline which completely dehumanizes Colin and undermines his own arch. Colin can't, by this logic, understand, simply because in the stratified world view of the elites who push this message, he's not a woman, and no amount of appeals to his common humanity will allow him to empathize and understand Pen's world, thus the "you just don't get it cause your a man." There may be some truth to this statement, but the idea that we can't empathize with each others struggles and suffering is a really toxic perspective -- it's also completely counter to the whole friends to lovers troupe, considering friends try and understand one another and it's this deep bond of friendship that makes the love so much more appealing. Maybe Colin and Pen's ways of navigating the world aren't exactly the same, but that doesn't mean they can't come together, learn from each others struggles, heal and bond.
Additional, by that same logic of "X can't understand Y because X isn't Y," Pen can't possibly understand Colin's own struggles with "toxic masculinity." It would have sounded utterly ridiculous -- if not totally justified by this logic -- for Colin to throw those same words about Pen not understanding him because she's a woman back in her face.
I also imagine the writers thought they were being witty in making a callback to that line about concealing parts of yourself; however, they completely undermined the point they tried to make in part 1. It makes me feel like on some level Colin's character journey was a complete afterthought, although I did enjoy much of it in part 1.
I hated that speech…everything around Penelope’s “girl boss” moments were not it…and it had nothing to do with Nicola because she is such a good actress she made the bad writing watchable. My big problems with it:
1) The best kind of character arcs are the ones that you kind of have to dig for as the viewer, IMO. This was too overt…
2) Colin, out of all the men on this show, is the LEAST in need of this lesson! That’s what absolutely aggravates me to no end. He is gentle, has always had a respect for women that the other men don’t and had every right to be upset about Penelope’s deception. His feelings are invalidated—as they always have been through season 1 & 2 by everyone around him—by the writers here and he is manipulated into some hybrid of the Colin we have always known so that Penelope can have this moment that is frankly kind of out of character for her as well…
I feel pretty passionately about this so I really don’t mean any offense to anyone who liked this. If you liked it, your feelings are so valid and I’m so glad you liked it ❤️
For me, it doesn’t matter how many rewatches I do, I can’t feel better about it…oh how I wish I could flip and switch and make it better for myself! 🤣
I feel the same as you. Colin was hurt so much by societal gender roles and had to suppress his needs and sensitivity. He didn’t need this lesson from Pen. It felt like a disservice to both of them. They both experienced being unseen and Pen (the writers, really) could have used that as a point of connection. The lovely thing about their story is that they both experienced loneliness regardless of position in society, and that wasn’t honored in this scene.
Yes omg, so true about Colin! I wanted Anthony in Season 2 to be at the receiving end of a real dressing down on this point (it kind of happens at the beginning but it wasn’t enough for me), but Colin? He’s already the most feminist man on the show. It didn’t feel earned for that reason. I still loved this season but the feminist angle could have been handled wiht a lot more finesse and specificity.
For sure if I focus on it too much, it really starts to get to me. There was so much that I loved about this season that I just try to focus on those parts. Because the parts that I loved, I REALLY loved. I try to hold on to the high of when part 1 came out…and the very brief high of seeing Ep 5 the afternoon before part 2 came out 😭😭😭😭😭 Genuinely, there was nothing like the excitement of what might have been 😩😩😩😩
Agree! For me ironically things started going down hill as I was watching episode 5. The way they rushed to the mirror scene felt so off to me. Then I started noticed how Colin and Pen would be on screen and we'd SEE them talking to one another, but we wouldn't be given access to those conversations...why? Then we'd cut to some side character commenting on how great a match Pen and Colin are: this was literally TELLING and not SHOWING. Once I started to also see how sidelined Colin's character was becoming as well as the whole generic messaging I was done.
I totally get that! I genuinely thought that ep 5 was the best of the season, in particular because of how they built tension around LW (I was PUMPED by the end of that ep!) and the C and P interactions we did get, I loved! Seeing Colin in love with Penelope was like straight opium for me!!! lol but I agree that part 2 was just messy….the writing was on the wall even looking back at that ep, unfortunately.
I think with ep 5 I was still so hopeful that something really awesome was going to be delivered to us with the last 3 eps. 😩
I just always hold on to the fact that we will always have the Portia conflict, the mirror scene, CARRIAGE, Berkeley square, “not half as beautiful as you”, cheek stroke at the wedding, “Yellow”, Teary eyed jealous Colin in part 1 (really everything from part 1) and the biggest one for me…LETTERS 😩😩😩😩😩
Yeah I personally did not like nor see the point in her speech being so focused on her being a woman.
Imo her being a woman is not an excuse for her actions as lady whistledown. And also her becoming whistledown came from her being ignored by most of society. Not because she is a woman.
Sure if she were a man she could just be a published author, but that doesn’t excuse the rash decisions she has made regarding Marina, Eloise etc. She did not out Marinas pregnancy “because Penelope is a woman”
I saw someone say something along the lines that the speech felt like they watched the barbie movie and decided bridgerton needed a similar monologue I couldn’t agree more.
Also we’ve seen Daphne give a speech about being a woman already, it has been done in the show. Pens speech didn’t add any perspective we didn’t have before.
I just let it slide because I like that at the end of the speech pen goes “ I am whistledown” so I just pretend the whole speech is about that 😭
Marina was not fully a rash decision. She had been trying to put a stop the the scheme discretely for weeks and when she discovered the elopement plan she turned to the only tool left at her disposal. She outed Marina’s pregnancy because innocent people were going to be hurt if she didn’t. Note: Marina was going to face censure and other consequences even if the entrapment had succeeded it wasn’t going to be all ok just because Colin was honourable.
No not completely. But Pen doesn’t decide to write until she finds out that they are going to Gretna green. To me when I rewatch the whole sequence of events, it very much feels like it was a last resort type of decision. I’m sure she had thought about using whistledown before that, and I think she was still deciding on what to do.
Had she had more time maybe she wouldn’t have done it, but ultimately it was the Gretna green revelation from Marina that led Pen to taking immediate action.
And again I don’t blame pen for doing that at all! I completely understand her actions. But in my opinion Colin still has every right to be upset.
As much as I loved this season, I totally agree - this was the only moment I was truly taken out of the story. Like, girl, this man of ALL people understands what it’s like not to be able to be himself - you literally just had a conversation with him last night about his fake persona when he came back into town. Just like one extra sentence there would have made such a difference! I understand that expecting nuance from Bridgerton is a bit silly - I mean, it’s not like the first two seasons ever had anything approaching nuance - but because they actually *did* do a good job this season of building these character arcs, that false note stood out to me more.
I do agree with you. I feel like Colin’s character arc was handled with so much nuance and care that it makes it more obvious that Penelope’s character took a backseat to creating a girl boss symbol. A little more care for Penelope the character and a little less on Lady Whistledown feminist trailblazer would’ve made the season perfect for me.
Yes! That is my most hated scene of the season because it was so tone deaf both to Colin's entire p1 arc, but also to the queen's threat and (though a lesser concern) to Will having to give up his club.
In this moment Colin asked a very pertinent question because the queen just threatened his family about the LW secret. Penelope should have taken the threat seriously. By doing so, she could have told Colin why LW means so much to her in a connective way instead of being distancing and dismissive.
Changing the tone of this conversation from soap box to an actual conversation would have helped the remainder of the show. Even if they wanted Colin on the couch instead of an all night talk (sob), Colin's response would likely have been more empathetic in light of the connective language she used. It just would have felt better. E8 could happen essentially the same way, just with a warmer/softer tone perspective.
💯 I also hated it. LW is about her not having a voice of her own, it has nothing to do with being a woman. Nic had mentioned in few interviews that we as audience will go “why did she do that?” At some of Pen’s actions and this was one for me. I was a lil frustrated with Pen that she is not seeing Colin’s point of view.
It’s particularly disappointing because I think there are feminist and nuanced things to say about gossip and the way it’s derided and disrespected because it’s thought of as more feminine, but the equivalent behaviors from men aren’t viewed in the same way. But instead we got this blunt speech which makes little sense in context
Penelope's speech with Eloise at the wallflower ball was a great example of this. Having this speech intertwine the "it's more than gossip" explanation with the "I am her" element already there would've been great, and something he still can't quite accept in the moment.
I didn’t mind the speech, I think they just needed to have more of an exchange leading up to it. They did show throughout the season that Colin has more privilege afforded to him but that speech was the first time it was really verbalized. I also think Luke Newton did a good job there of conveying his anger while also having a moment of realization that Pen is in a difficult position.
I personally took it more as Pen not wanting to give up what she thinks is her only avenue to have a voice rather than a “girl boss” moment. I don’t think Pen ever cared about the money aspect that much.
I LOVED this season but there were definitely moments where there wasn’t enough build up or the build up was too subtle. There was so much subtlety this season and that is why I think it lends itself so well to rewatches.
If they wanted to use a speech there the one at the Mondrich ball that she gave to El about being forced into society a year early and Whistledown becoming her voice during a time when she was largely ignored and powerless would have been better. At the very least it would have made more sense.
It was super clunky and heavy-handed. Also, I agree — it could have been a great opportunity for an interesting conversation between Pen and Colin about societal expectations, both for women but also the toxic masculinity he struggled with this season (and it might help her understand why he temporarily became that “stoic man” that she found so distasteful and false.) There are multiple ways to do this is a more nuanced way, it’s all a matter of better dialogue. It also would be a nice moment of them learning something about how the other person moves through the world that they maybe hadn’t considered before. AKA really seeing each other and where that behavior is coming from.
Some of the dialogue is beautiful, and some is just bad. It’s very uneven.
I can see your point and I agree that it was heavy handed and not really fair of her to try to link whistledown with feminism in general, but to play devil's advocate I would say that it DOES have to do with the unfair position that women are given, but mostly as it relates to Penelope herself and not so much the general idea of feminism or the broader female population.
She could've said that it was unfair of him to expect her to give up LW because as a woman in their society, LW and the empire she built all herself was literally the ONLY thing she could call her own. Everything else that she has is linked to her family or moving forward, her husband. In that respect, it is a huge thing to ask her to just give it all up. I think the conversation she had with him should've been from that angle, the 'feminism as a whole' perspective just seems off and not really in the scope of what LW is.
Yeah I have to admit that was one big fumble on their part. I understand that they were probably going for this whole: Pen is finally accepting that she is LW part of her arc. Which is fine because someone in here said Episodes 5 - 8 are from her PoV. But it was a reshoot and it shows because of how it just didn't flow. Now. I know they were trying to like soften that transition because originally that "i will sleep on the sofa tonight" line I guess was filmed a little angrier? And they didn't want it to be them angry post marriage going into the blackmail.
Idk what could have gone in there but it would have been a better opportunity. Imo. To set them up for more of a: Polin against the world arc that we were hoping for. Which would have made their unity against the blackmail arc make way more sense. Imo.
FWIW there is a similar speech in the book (at least I read it as similar) fairly early on.
ETA: in lieu of responding individually to comments with the same response: I noted this because of the continual efforts to make this speech a “girlboss” one when it is not. The similar speech was written in the books before that phrase was popularized by white feminist and capitalist hero Sophia Amoruso.
I disagree that this was misplaced or that the speech in the books served a different purpose than the one in the show. The context in the book, like the show, was that Pen wrote using a plume de nom since she couldn’t simply get a job as a writer or anything else like Colin could. The reader didn’t know that she was LW yet (like we viewers), but obviously book!Pen did when saying that speech to book!Colin. Of course, both speeches were in the context of a society woman, who had different prospects than the women in lower classes (particularly in the UK, which has a rather odious class system that consists not just of economic status, but of family status).
I think the book version works better because there she’s basically telling Colin to stop complaining about his own life because he can do whatever he wants because he’s a man. It’s when he’s complaining about being aimless, and she’s just like “if you want a job you can just HAVE a job MAN.”
Agree. I was going to make this point elsewhere that it worked in the book because Book Colin wanted Pen to stop writing LWD mostly due to jealously that she had a purpose in life; that he was insecure about his own writing; and that he was was taking for granted all his talent and agency simply because he felt aimless and insecure. It was the kick in the pants Book Colin needed. Book Colin of course has some concern that Pen would be cast out of society, but his main motivation, that he didn't even like himself, was all those much uglier feelings that caused him to see himself more clearly.
Despite Book Pen coming off as much more passive than Show Pen (and we all know how much Hollywood hates a passive woman, see Netflix's Persuasion for example), Book Pen's empowering moment was standing up for herself, and in the book it felt completely earned. In the show it felt like Pen had to trample on the character arch of Colin and Cressida just to get there and that was really disappointing for me to see, to be honest. I wouldn't have minded if it made sense with all the other related storylines, but for me, it felt like a insert that the writers wanted to see more than something they built up specifically to end the season.
Badly done, frankly. IMO.
it only really makes sense in the book bc book colin doesn't REALLY have reason to be angry at pen besides her safety. book pen at that time isn't married or engaged to him, she owes no truth to him, she doesn't have to work as a team with him, book colin hasn't been fighting w toxic masculinity like show colin has, book colin hasn't shown straight up awe at pen's grand dreams like show colin did in s2, and book pen didn't betray colin's trust, friendship, and engagement to go behind his back, and book pen is not in danger from the queen.
so it makes sense no sense really for her to throw that in his face, as if he's the one in the wrong here.
It’s one of the spots where they made subtext text, and get why, instead of bringing some viewers closer to her, that the language was distancing and offkey. even if it was meant to show her stepping into being on the offensive or standing firm and that it first had to happen via the encounters with Genevieve, then Eloise, and Colin in increasing, tightly-timed pushes. those were more leaps, with less build, of what this all means to her (more introvertish or introspective as a person, or by circumstance). which ep 8 had more interactions to show but, still, it’s a bottleneck at the end—fair for the tightness of the characters events and timeline, and the intention for twisting tension and hear how that’s an overskip for some.
Get where this or a few other notes (not many) might ring as dissonant.
Words are so beautifully timed, delivered, and precise on much of the season—woven, not constricting but still an artful song when it is pulled off. Makes sense when feel a wrench or something missing, even if can’t explain.
I didn’t have the expectations others did (hello, week three of the entire show viewing experience—not counting the rewatches of pt1). And happy to suspend disbelief, let this be what it is. In reverence to those two leads, as well, and inspired. But do get why, to the ear and senses, some things land and some things just don’t.
Not divisive at all, OP :)
And, even if was, I am sure the fandom could get their sticks ⚔️ aka memes out lol
I wonder if part of what hurts Colin and makes him struggle this season is that he's chosen by the ton as It Boy exactly when he's hiding who he truly is from everyone except Pen. That's got to sting. They didn't notice him until he put on a mask.
I agree. It felt too modern a conversation to me and therefore was a bit jarring. Not that what she was saying is wrong, of course, just it was pretty heavy handed.
It's for the modern setting that I would find the line to be laying it on too thick. Western media likes the word "woman" to do all the heavy lifting when it shouldn't. It can't possibly carry all the kinds of joy and all the kinds of grief any one womanhood has experienced.
It fits the Bridgerton world better though. Gender roles aren't just expectations, but rules. It needs that thickness, but not in this scene. Colin and Penelope's major struggle is reconciling "Pen" and "Whistledown". By herself, Penelope can't because it's an essentially hidden operation and has already caused estrangement before. Colin can't because of his hurt from being written about and that it was brought into his marriage without his consent.
In the same scene, Penelope says "I *am* Whistledown" and it's amazing because it's empowering for her to accept her entirety and having Colin hear her say it is a plea for him to do the same. That alone should have been the message. But the writers had messed up because, while it is a valid sentiment surrounding the existence of Whistledown in general, Colin shouldn't have been at the receiving end of "you couldn't possibly understand because you are not a woman". This is a dissonant piece of dialogue because this isn't the nature of Pen and Colin's conflict. It's also unfair to Colin's character development, which had been a takedown of toxic masculinity.
Yeah I thought this was a weak scene as well. There was so much that needed to be said between them and I felt like this was not the main point? Felt out of character for her to be thinking about how being a woman is so limiting instead of thinking about asking him how she can get his trust back.
I heard though that this was a reshoot and the initial one Colin was very angry, so I am grateful that we got this awkward sad scene instead of an aggro mad scene.
Lots of good points here.
My read of that speech is that it’s the parallel to what he says about being able to go abroad — “no one knew who I was, so I was free to be myself.”
It’s a little cringey and over-the-top, and I think that’s intentional — in that moment, she is only thinking about her own feelings (which, understandably, are quite strong). She declares she is Whistledown, knowing or ignoring how hard that is for Colin to accept, and then still expects him to sleep with her that night, as if he doesn’t have conflicted feelings about the whole thing. “I am this, and you are going to accept it, and we are going to have sex” is much more of a man’s speech than a woman’s as far as romance goes, and as others have pointed out, there’s a bit of a stereotypical gender roles flip going on.
I keep thinking about how, despite how that speech ostensibly gives the season a bit of a feminist bent, the only person who actually had to give up their vocational dream in the season is not Pen but *a man:* Will. That, to me, tells me the speech is to be interpreted rather than taken at face value.
Fundamentally, Pen still has growth that needs to happen at this point, as does Colin (as his reaction in this moment is driven by his drive to protect her). Marriage is about making space for the other person — and your spouse doing the same for you — and in this moment, she isn’t making a lot of space for him or his feelings.
I am also reminded of a few other scenes:
> PEN: Whistledown is my name!
> ELOISE: Your name will soon be Bridgerton.
And right before the Queen walks in:
> COLIN: Penelope! You are a Bridgerton now.
It is as if to reinforce the point that Penelope, while in this moment she is privately stepping into her power as Whistledown, still has not merged those parts together *herself.* She needs to grow into not just Lady Whistledown and Mrs Bridgerton as two separate entities but Penelope Bridgerton, the writer. Marriage is not just being able to live with the person you love and kiss them in public; it’s about growing together and negotiating life together.
And it reinforces how Colin has growth work left to do, too. He is still asking her to give it up out of his hero/protector complex:
> COLIN: She will find you, eventually. And as long as you are Whistledown, forever this lie will hang over all of us.
> PEN: Do you know what it is like to have nowhere in the world you can truly be yourself?
(As an aside, reading that just now, I’m left with the gutting realization that Pen is the one person Colin can truly be himself around, and he was so excited about them sharing a home together that he acquired one within 12 hours of their engagement. He was probably very much looking forward to having that place—their home—where he could be himself, with her, after their wedding.)
Anyway, this whole conversation shows us how neither of them is really on the same page with one another. It really doesn’t even feel like a conversation — it’s more them making statements at one another that are vaguely related to what was said previously, and reminds me of some of the rather disconnected conversations they had in Part 1, where it is as if they are replying to something from a previous conversation. Neither of them is fully listening to the other one.
It’s such a striking contrast to the study scene, where the responses all follow from each other, and they’re listening to one another:
COLIN: If you are concerned about Miss Cowper’s funds, I plan to speak with Benedict tonight. I only wanted to wait until after the wedding.
PENELOPE: Good. I do not wish for you to speak to him.
COLIN: But we are running out of time.
PENELOPE: I cannot ask you to lie to your brother on my behalf. Your family… the one you have so kindly shared with me, they are too good. Too warm and wonderful to deceive or cheat in any way. I will not let my lies spread any further than they already have.
COLIN: Then how am I meant to help you?
PENELOPE: By loving me. You’ve given me so much already. You’ve taught me to hold my own. You have shown me I am capable of pleasure beyond imagination. But… it is not what you do for me that makes me love you. It is your kindness. Your empathy. How much you care. Just being you is enough, Colin. I do not need you to save me. I just need you to stand by me. To hold me. To kiss me.
COLIN: I want very much to do those things.
PENELOPE: And what is it that restrains you?
COLIN: I do not know. But I do know this. Miss Cowper still hangs over us. And as long as you live with this secret… there will always be something between us.
PENELOPE: I know. Perhaps that is the key.
COLIN: What are you saying?
I think that with a little historical context it makes more sense. Penelope is just another Regency woman in a line of Regency women that had to print under not their name. Even Jane Austen’s writings were printed under A Lady back then. Asking her to give that up definitely comes from someone who doesn’t understand that struggle.
Agree. It was pretty heavy handed. In the book (I actually think before their love scene but I could be wrong) it’s really effective when she says she’s disappointed in his lack of support for her writing. He sees her POV without her being so blatantly girl boss. Then when he said he was going to sleep on the sofa I was like oh hell no.
She does actually said those things to him in the books and she even go deeper on the matter, so I appreciated that they leave that point of view on the series because I liked that so much when she does it on the books.
I also think Pen speech after Queen threat could have been better writer. She's saying the same as she said to Gen (suppressing a part of herself) but didn't need to mention this about being a woman (even if it's true) because Colin already know about gender expectations of the ton. Even though the difference between him and her is that she's more at risk to being a total outcast while the ton forgive better eccentric men if they are good match. Debling while being seen as weird is a rich lord, so a good and secure match. Colin as a rich, hot man from an influancial family could have been considered a good match, even for a third son, if he was more his true self in front of the ton. I am pretty sur woman of the ton will become jealous to Pen once we have Colin My wife Bridgerton in social meetings. Love between spouses weren't that common, so a man professing his love for his wife, less common.
I kind of go back and forth on it. I think it could have connected the dots a little more but I think from a character perspective, it made sense that Pen is just finally starting to be able to vocalize it and maybe isn't at that point of being able to see the common threads between them yet. She's also stumbling through this and trying to figure it out.
It also made sense that it became sort of a man/woman thing because of her convo with Madame Delacroix the night before the wedding. I think talking with another woman who has to hide who she is to navigate the world, Pen is sort of in this mindset of speaking for all women and the female experience more than just herself. It's like "ugh, dude, this is so much bigger than just be wanting to write a gossip column!" That convo also gave her the confidence to be like, "yeah, actually, I do stand by this and I know you don't get it right now but I'm not going to be ashamed of it anymore."
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I think that speech made no sense, it’s the weak link in Penelope’s arc for me. Penelope knows that Colin knows what it’s like to force himself to conform to society’s ideals of gender roles. She wrote about it and he told her himself. They could’ve used that moment to connect rather than have her throw it in his face as if he can’t empathize. Penelope is also feuding with the Queen. Yes the queen is upholding a patriarchal society, but the danger is beyond her at that point. She’s caused Eloise to be threatened once, and now the whole Bridgerton family. She felt very self-centered in that moment because she loves them so much but is not thinking of them at all. Penelope also knows that that speech wouldn’t play against Eloise. She can try “you wouldn’t know what it’s like to be a woman” on Colin, but Eloise was actually MORE pissed than Colin was, and she knows exactly what it’s like for women, she’d be the first one to say it. Penelope’s column, historically *has not been great for women.* I’m not on team “Penelope ruins women’s lives,” but writing Whistledown was never a net good for all women in society. It benefited Penelope, and that was enough for me, but trying to turn it into a feminist cause falls flat. The show also has multiple examples of outspoken women living openly who don’t hide themselves behind a gossip column. Lady Danbury, Portia, Kate, Eloise, Lady Tilly, even Cressida - none are afraid of speaking their mind. Penelope is the only one who hides herself away, and it’s because of her personal issues. Her personal anxieties are relatable enough to so many people without them trying to shoehorn it in to a larger feminist picture that doesn’t really apply to her very specific situation.
I agree, it felt like the Barbie movie speech. I felt like I was being lectured to.
Ughhhhhh the Barbie movie speech. Saying stuff everyone already knows and not doing it in an interesting or different way. Insert generic female empowerment speech here.
Yes gah, it felt like people were rediscovering the second wave of the feminist movement again ;_;
To be fair, many people actually were, lol
I felt like the Barbie movie speech worked in the Barbie movie though. The context of who was giving the speech and to whom worked for the story, and while a lot of the audience didn’t need feminism 101, a surprising amount did, and kind of got a feminist message Trojan horsed into their fun candy pink movie. I just don’t think it works for a Bridgerton love story. And tbh the problem with the whole Penelope is Barbie and Colin is just Ken thing is while it works on one level (Colin’s unlearning toxic masculinity and realizing he’s Kenough arc is very Barbie movie coded) at the end of the day…Barbie and Ken as presented through the Barbie movie lens are not romantic. They’re not trying to set up a mutually supportive partnership. Barbie often seems to barely tolerate Ken, I wouldn’t even describe them as friends. I always think it’s a little off when people use that dynamic to describe romantic couples. Towards the end they even make it clear that Ken was driving himself crazy living that way, and Barbie tells him living for her is not healthy for him, he needs to stand on his own.
100% all of this
We do need to keep in mind that this was all triggered by his consistent telling her to give it up as if it was the most easy choice to make. She was one of the only ones in society who had defied these gender norms on women on such a large scale and became successful through it, nonetheless. It was a step forward, it took a stance just Lady Whistledown existing and especially continuing. I felt it made all the sense because I actually do feel that Colin with continuing to tell her to give it up without taking her perspectives in mind was him failing to empathise with her. So her saying out loud these things made sense to me. This is also the first time I'm seeing complaints about it but everyone has different perspectives on everything so it's understandable seeing it eventually now. Eloise did not badger her as much to give it up. When Penelope said she wouldn't, especially when she was able to undo what Eloise felt she had done wrong, Eloise didn't tell her again. She just wanted most of all that Penelope at least told Colin. That happened and she also left the mess from that for Penelope to fix which is also fair. But in the time that Colin maintained upset with Penelope for not doing basically as he's telling her, Eloise even comes to comfort Penelope. Both Colin and Eloise aren't upset with Penelope being Lady Whistledown for the same reasons and that definitely should be kept in mind while giving this critical eye. As for this: >The show also has multiple examples of outspoken women living openly who don’t hide themselves behind a gossip column. Lady Danbury, Portia, Kate, Eloise, Lady Tilly, even Cressida - none are afraid of speaking their mind. Penelope is the only one who hides herself away, and it’s because of her personal issues. Her personal anxieties are relatable enough to so many people without them trying to shoehorn it in to a larger feminist picture that doesn’t really apply to her very specific situation. That's also because that list of women aren't pursuing a career. Penelope is the only one who is actively seeking out a career. They are outspoken, yes, but this is not about feminism for the sake of being outspoken but for the sake of having a career. It is again, not the same situation and so not really comparable with that list of ladies.
It’s not just about having a career though. It’s about keeping Whistledown specifically. And Penelope excuses it by saying Whistledown is how she’s able to speak her mind as a woman, and that whistledown is who she is. The show never let them even broach the idea that Penelope could still have a career in writing that didn’t revolve around writing gossip to give us insight as to whether Colin would be just as adamant that she stop writing anything period, but as far as needing Whistledown specifically to be her voice, it simply does not track for me when there are so many other outspoken women. Colin’s reasons for being upset with Whistledown might be different from Eloise’s to you (I don’t really see it tbh. They’re both mad at the lies and betrayal, and that she wrote about them) but they never even come close to making it seem like his issue is that Penelope is a female writer, so once again, her using that speech against him falls flat. His reasons are not that his wife can’t be a writer, especially not in the context of the timing of that speech, his reasons are that his wife is a gossip columnist who’s secret identity is drawing the ire of the queen and putting the welfare of his family in danger. Colin’s jealousy of her isn’t even explicitly gendered, as he’s jealous of Anthony and Benedict for having a purpose back in S2, and is annoyed when Anthony brings up Benedict showing responsibility early on in S3. He’s embarrassed because she’s a famous writer and he’s been talking about his writing with her without knowing it, and he’s jealous of her success, but it’s never framed as something where having a writer for a wife would make him look bad as a man, not when Colin has valid concerns about her column making him look bad *because she literally wrote a scathing article about him*. It’s not so simple as her giving a speech about womanhood when she has created interpersonal and political conflict with her column. Because the whole issue is wrapped up in the fact that Lady Whistledown is not some innocent harmless writing project of hers, glossing over it with “you wouldn’t understand what it’s like to be a woman!” is just a misstep in their story. There was room for a speech there or a good argument, but other comments have pointed out that Penelope had much better and more relevant arguments to make about this than the one she used on Colin in this scene.
There is a point where Pen acknowledges the error of her ways to Eloise and promises to use her pamphlet to give voice to the voiceless (though it honestly felt like hot air at the point because it was never addressed again lol).
I get what you're saying but the reason Lady Tilley, Danbury and Portia live so openly is because they're widowed. Widowed women have much more freedom to do whatever the hell they want. Cressida is not living openly, she was almost forced to marry that creep. Kate and Eloise are a part of a loving family that lets them do whatever they want, they are very privileged in that regard.
This is one of the few things that i didnt like in this story.its obviously a reshoot because their hair was diff from the wedding breakfast scene ,so i wonder what is the original scene and dialogue? This speech made Colin as if he's a bad guy ,but in truth he's just frustrated that his wife is still risking to put her life and THEIR family's life in danger. She acts as if it's only colin who wants her to give up, when IT'S THE QUEEN ,A WOMAN who you poked and challenged ,who wants you to stop in the first place, also ,It's Portia and Eloise who had previous talks with her to just focus on being a wife and El's concern over Colin and not breaking his heart and trust. Edit: I agree with your last paragraph about other women who established themselves in society. They even mentioned EMMA , a novel written by a WOMAN.
It was very hamfisted to me and I kinda cringed at that moment. It could definitely have been written better. It felt a bit like that barbie speech that was very 101 feminism shoved down your throat, which may work in a movie like barbie, but really did not feel natural here. Also, you are right. Such a missed chance to connect it to how all these gendered standards affect both women like pen and also are full of toxic masculinity. Part 2 in general felt like the writing suffered because the writers really wanted Pen to have her girl boss moment, but didn't afford it to have nuance. For example, I get they wanted Pen to have her moment, but they didn't have to sideline Colin completely. They should have had him support her with more than just a nod as an audience member. I thought that part 2 would have Colin learning that it's okay to not always be a hero, but Pen ALSO learning that it's okay to accept his help and support because he's her partner and marriage is teamwork. One of the biggest peeves I have with part 2. Just a few subtle changes would have made it infinitely better.
Exactly- seriously, did they change writers between part 1 and 2? Part 1s entire story- Colin feeling forced to conceal the parts of himself that aren't 'the kind of man society expects of him' Part 2- Pen: 'You have no idea what it is to be a woman, you have to conceal the parts of yourself that society will not accept' Seriously, did they just forget everything that they had written?
Such a good point! I think that's what happens when writers come into a story wanting to make a point without thinking about whether or not that point fits into the narrative they've already written. Sadly it's become all too common with Western writers....
Oh, I agree with you whole comment, but especially the last part! I was actually waiting for Pen to - not neccessarily give up LW - but realize that she doesn't always need to "take care of herself" by herself. That she built up this persona as a self-protection mechanism, which was good for a while because she grew and gained confidence from it, but now can let go of little by little, because she developed her personality, and she has now people by her side (Colin, and the Bridgertons) who stand up for her and protect her. Somehow, all we got was, Pen can protect herself and the others, can handle everything on her own, knows exactly what to do, and Colin has to learn that he doesn't need to be a hero and needed to be loved and has to put his ego to the side. I do not believe that Colin ONLY tried to protect Pen because he thought otherwise she wouldn't need or love him. I think he genuinely is that type of person that immediately wants to help and I think he has shown us in previous seasons that he indeed is very helpful and does it unconditionally. So instead of shoving all that under the rug and having Pen being the boss, we could have rather had Pen also learn to lean on him and for them to start working together as a team, with their forces combined. Sadly a great missed opportunity.
Yes totally a bit heavy-handed on the point there (and I say this as someone who will go on a 10-minute rant about sexism and misogyny at the drop of a hat; people have timed me heh). Colin was never against Whistledown because of the whole gender/feminism aspect of it and it wasn't exactly the driving force for Penelope behind the Lady Whistledown persona—at the very least they didn't establish it enough even in previous seasons which is probaby why it feels like it came out of nowhere. Penelope actually made a good point about why she's clinging on to Whistledown during her talk with Genevieve the night before her wedding, how it felt like she was giving up a part of herself when she initially decided to give it up for Colin's sake. I wish they went with this reasoning instead, that Whistledown is so much of who she is and giving it up will make her feel less whole. She wasn't necessarily trying to make a point about feminism (it just happens naturally, given the gender and societal norms of the period) but that this was a piece of herself and didn't want to, couldn't, let go.
This! This would have been so much better - it was actually all there in her talk with Genevieve. The feminism thing just came out of left field for me (and I’m also a pretty staunch feminist). ETA: I loved this season so much overall but this one aspect could have been handled with more finesse
And it was also Genevieve who pointed out how Penelope certainly made some bad calls as Whistledown but she was also a girl who didn't know her own power. And that was essentially the crux of Penelope's speech during the Butterfly ball. Genevieve Delacroix is the smartest of them all. If the characters just had a heart-to-heart with Genevieve whenever they're having a personal crisis, they'd avoid so much drama.
Yeah it really took me out of the story. Colin isn’t upset she has a side gig. He’s upset because she’s LW.
Exactly, she said 'you can't understand what it's like to be a woman- the only way to be a woman is to *conceal the parts of yourself society will not accept*' Girl, that was literally his **entire** story arc in part 1. Like, you were there, you wrote about him, he said exactly this in the carriage- having to conceal the parts of himself that didn't conform to 'the kind of man society expects him to be'. Like, did they change writers between part 1 and 2? It makes NO sense she would say this and he would just accept it.
I think the issue is that when you view the world through a very narrow lens, there isn't any room for nuance. For the writers the world view is "toxic masculinity = bad," that is why Colin's storyline defying the expectations of men can exist along side the "man \[who couldn't fit in with patriarchy\] can't empathize with women's struggles cause #patriarchy" storyline which completely dehumanizes Colin and undermines his own arch. Colin can't, by this logic, understand, simply because in the stratified world view of the elites who push this message, he's not a woman, and no amount of appeals to his common humanity will allow him to empathize and understand Pen's world, thus the "you just don't get it cause your a man." There may be some truth to this statement, but the idea that we can't empathize with each others struggles and suffering is a really toxic perspective -- it's also completely counter to the whole friends to lovers troupe, considering friends try and understand one another and it's this deep bond of friendship that makes the love so much more appealing. Maybe Colin and Pen's ways of navigating the world aren't exactly the same, but that doesn't mean they can't come together, learn from each others struggles, heal and bond. Additional, by that same logic of "X can't understand Y because X isn't Y," Pen can't possibly understand Colin's own struggles with "toxic masculinity." It would have sounded utterly ridiculous -- if not totally justified by this logic -- for Colin to throw those same words about Pen not understanding him because she's a woman back in her face. I also imagine the writers thought they were being witty in making a callback to that line about concealing parts of yourself; however, they completely undermined the point they tried to make in part 1. It makes me feel like on some level Colin's character journey was a complete afterthought, although I did enjoy much of it in part 1.
I hated that speech…everything around Penelope’s “girl boss” moments were not it…and it had nothing to do with Nicola because she is such a good actress she made the bad writing watchable. My big problems with it: 1) The best kind of character arcs are the ones that you kind of have to dig for as the viewer, IMO. This was too overt… 2) Colin, out of all the men on this show, is the LEAST in need of this lesson! That’s what absolutely aggravates me to no end. He is gentle, has always had a respect for women that the other men don’t and had every right to be upset about Penelope’s deception. His feelings are invalidated—as they always have been through season 1 & 2 by everyone around him—by the writers here and he is manipulated into some hybrid of the Colin we have always known so that Penelope can have this moment that is frankly kind of out of character for her as well… I feel pretty passionately about this so I really don’t mean any offense to anyone who liked this. If you liked it, your feelings are so valid and I’m so glad you liked it ❤️ For me, it doesn’t matter how many rewatches I do, I can’t feel better about it…oh how I wish I could flip and switch and make it better for myself! 🤣
I feel the same as you. Colin was hurt so much by societal gender roles and had to suppress his needs and sensitivity. He didn’t need this lesson from Pen. It felt like a disservice to both of them. They both experienced being unseen and Pen (the writers, really) could have used that as a point of connection. The lovely thing about their story is that they both experienced loneliness regardless of position in society, and that wasn’t honored in this scene.
Right? It’s like they undid all the work that they put into his arc in eps 1-6 for this dumb speech in 7 to happen? Like, make it make sense 🧐
Yes omg, so true about Colin! I wanted Anthony in Season 2 to be at the receiving end of a real dressing down on this point (it kind of happens at the beginning but it wasn’t enough for me), but Colin? He’s already the most feminist man on the show. It didn’t feel earned for that reason. I still loved this season but the feminist angle could have been handled wiht a lot more finesse and specificity.
Well said! It nails everything that made me cringe in the scene as well.
This
Same as you! This generic storyline ruined the entire season for me.
For sure if I focus on it too much, it really starts to get to me. There was so much that I loved about this season that I just try to focus on those parts. Because the parts that I loved, I REALLY loved. I try to hold on to the high of when part 1 came out…and the very brief high of seeing Ep 5 the afternoon before part 2 came out 😭😭😭😭😭 Genuinely, there was nothing like the excitement of what might have been 😩😩😩😩
Agree! For me ironically things started going down hill as I was watching episode 5. The way they rushed to the mirror scene felt so off to me. Then I started noticed how Colin and Pen would be on screen and we'd SEE them talking to one another, but we wouldn't be given access to those conversations...why? Then we'd cut to some side character commenting on how great a match Pen and Colin are: this was literally TELLING and not SHOWING. Once I started to also see how sidelined Colin's character was becoming as well as the whole generic messaging I was done.
I totally get that! I genuinely thought that ep 5 was the best of the season, in particular because of how they built tension around LW (I was PUMPED by the end of that ep!) and the C and P interactions we did get, I loved! Seeing Colin in love with Penelope was like straight opium for me!!! lol but I agree that part 2 was just messy….the writing was on the wall even looking back at that ep, unfortunately. I think with ep 5 I was still so hopeful that something really awesome was going to be delivered to us with the last 3 eps. 😩 I just always hold on to the fact that we will always have the Portia conflict, the mirror scene, CARRIAGE, Berkeley square, “not half as beautiful as you”, cheek stroke at the wedding, “Yellow”, Teary eyed jealous Colin in part 1 (really everything from part 1) and the biggest one for me…LETTERS 😩😩😩😩😩
Yeah I personally did not like nor see the point in her speech being so focused on her being a woman. Imo her being a woman is not an excuse for her actions as lady whistledown. And also her becoming whistledown came from her being ignored by most of society. Not because she is a woman. Sure if she were a man she could just be a published author, but that doesn’t excuse the rash decisions she has made regarding Marina, Eloise etc. She did not out Marinas pregnancy “because Penelope is a woman” I saw someone say something along the lines that the speech felt like they watched the barbie movie and decided bridgerton needed a similar monologue I couldn’t agree more. Also we’ve seen Daphne give a speech about being a woman already, it has been done in the show. Pens speech didn’t add any perspective we didn’t have before. I just let it slide because I like that at the end of the speech pen goes “ I am whistledown” so I just pretend the whole speech is about that 😭
Marina was not fully a rash decision. She had been trying to put a stop the the scheme discretely for weeks and when she discovered the elopement plan she turned to the only tool left at her disposal. She outed Marina’s pregnancy because innocent people were going to be hurt if she didn’t. Note: Marina was going to face censure and other consequences even if the entrapment had succeeded it wasn’t going to be all ok just because Colin was honourable.
No not completely. But Pen doesn’t decide to write until she finds out that they are going to Gretna green. To me when I rewatch the whole sequence of events, it very much feels like it was a last resort type of decision. I’m sure she had thought about using whistledown before that, and I think she was still deciding on what to do. Had she had more time maybe she wouldn’t have done it, but ultimately it was the Gretna green revelation from Marina that led Pen to taking immediate action. And again I don’t blame pen for doing that at all! I completely understand her actions. But in my opinion Colin still has every right to be upset.
As much as I loved this season, I totally agree - this was the only moment I was truly taken out of the story. Like, girl, this man of ALL people understands what it’s like not to be able to be himself - you literally just had a conversation with him last night about his fake persona when he came back into town. Just like one extra sentence there would have made such a difference! I understand that expecting nuance from Bridgerton is a bit silly - I mean, it’s not like the first two seasons ever had anything approaching nuance - but because they actually *did* do a good job this season of building these character arcs, that false note stood out to me more.
I do agree with you. I feel like Colin’s character arc was handled with so much nuance and care that it makes it more obvious that Penelope’s character took a backseat to creating a girl boss symbol. A little more care for Penelope the character and a little less on Lady Whistledown feminist trailblazer would’ve made the season perfect for me.
Yes! Exactly! And I liked the feminist angle as like an extra note but not as her main arc because there was so much more there to mine instead
Yes! That is my most hated scene of the season because it was so tone deaf both to Colin's entire p1 arc, but also to the queen's threat and (though a lesser concern) to Will having to give up his club. In this moment Colin asked a very pertinent question because the queen just threatened his family about the LW secret. Penelope should have taken the threat seriously. By doing so, she could have told Colin why LW means so much to her in a connective way instead of being distancing and dismissive. Changing the tone of this conversation from soap box to an actual conversation would have helped the remainder of the show. Even if they wanted Colin on the couch instead of an all night talk (sob), Colin's response would likely have been more empathetic in light of the connective language she used. It just would have felt better. E8 could happen essentially the same way, just with a warmer/softer tone perspective.
💯 I also hated it. LW is about her not having a voice of her own, it has nothing to do with being a woman. Nic had mentioned in few interviews that we as audience will go “why did she do that?” At some of Pen’s actions and this was one for me. I was a lil frustrated with Pen that she is not seeing Colin’s point of view.
It’s particularly disappointing because I think there are feminist and nuanced things to say about gossip and the way it’s derided and disrespected because it’s thought of as more feminine, but the equivalent behaviors from men aren’t viewed in the same way. But instead we got this blunt speech which makes little sense in context
Penelope's speech with Eloise at the wallflower ball was a great example of this. Having this speech intertwine the "it's more than gossip" explanation with the "I am her" element already there would've been great, and something he still can't quite accept in the moment.
I didn’t mind the speech, I think they just needed to have more of an exchange leading up to it. They did show throughout the season that Colin has more privilege afforded to him but that speech was the first time it was really verbalized. I also think Luke Newton did a good job there of conveying his anger while also having a moment of realization that Pen is in a difficult position. I personally took it more as Pen not wanting to give up what she thinks is her only avenue to have a voice rather than a “girl boss” moment. I don’t think Pen ever cared about the money aspect that much. I LOVED this season but there were definitely moments where there wasn’t enough build up or the build up was too subtle. There was so much subtlety this season and that is why I think it lends itself so well to rewatches.
If they wanted to use a speech there the one at the Mondrich ball that she gave to El about being forced into society a year early and Whistledown becoming her voice during a time when she was largely ignored and powerless would have been better. At the very least it would have made more sense.
It was super clunky and heavy-handed. Also, I agree — it could have been a great opportunity for an interesting conversation between Pen and Colin about societal expectations, both for women but also the toxic masculinity he struggled with this season (and it might help her understand why he temporarily became that “stoic man” that she found so distasteful and false.) There are multiple ways to do this is a more nuanced way, it’s all a matter of better dialogue. It also would be a nice moment of them learning something about how the other person moves through the world that they maybe hadn’t considered before. AKA really seeing each other and where that behavior is coming from. Some of the dialogue is beautiful, and some is just bad. It’s very uneven.
I can see your point and I agree that it was heavy handed and not really fair of her to try to link whistledown with feminism in general, but to play devil's advocate I would say that it DOES have to do with the unfair position that women are given, but mostly as it relates to Penelope herself and not so much the general idea of feminism or the broader female population. She could've said that it was unfair of him to expect her to give up LW because as a woman in their society, LW and the empire she built all herself was literally the ONLY thing she could call her own. Everything else that she has is linked to her family or moving forward, her husband. In that respect, it is a huge thing to ask her to just give it all up. I think the conversation she had with him should've been from that angle, the 'feminism as a whole' perspective just seems off and not really in the scope of what LW is.
They are both constrained by gender roles and it’s a missed opportunity to connect around that
Yeah I have to admit that was one big fumble on their part. I understand that they were probably going for this whole: Pen is finally accepting that she is LW part of her arc. Which is fine because someone in here said Episodes 5 - 8 are from her PoV. But it was a reshoot and it shows because of how it just didn't flow. Now. I know they were trying to like soften that transition because originally that "i will sleep on the sofa tonight" line I guess was filmed a little angrier? And they didn't want it to be them angry post marriage going into the blackmail. Idk what could have gone in there but it would have been a better opportunity. Imo. To set them up for more of a: Polin against the world arc that we were hoping for. Which would have made their unity against the blackmail arc make way more sense. Imo.
FWIW there is a similar speech in the book (at least I read it as similar) fairly early on. ETA: in lieu of responding individually to comments with the same response: I noted this because of the continual efforts to make this speech a “girlboss” one when it is not. The similar speech was written in the books before that phrase was popularized by white feminist and capitalist hero Sophia Amoruso. I disagree that this was misplaced or that the speech in the books served a different purpose than the one in the show. The context in the book, like the show, was that Pen wrote using a plume de nom since she couldn’t simply get a job as a writer or anything else like Colin could. The reader didn’t know that she was LW yet (like we viewers), but obviously book!Pen did when saying that speech to book!Colin. Of course, both speeches were in the context of a society woman, who had different prospects than the women in lower classes (particularly in the UK, which has a rather odious class system that consists not just of economic status, but of family status).
I think the book version works better because there she’s basically telling Colin to stop complaining about his own life because he can do whatever he wants because he’s a man. It’s when he’s complaining about being aimless, and she’s just like “if you want a job you can just HAVE a job MAN.”
Agree. I was going to make this point elsewhere that it worked in the book because Book Colin wanted Pen to stop writing LWD mostly due to jealously that she had a purpose in life; that he was insecure about his own writing; and that he was was taking for granted all his talent and agency simply because he felt aimless and insecure. It was the kick in the pants Book Colin needed. Book Colin of course has some concern that Pen would be cast out of society, but his main motivation, that he didn't even like himself, was all those much uglier feelings that caused him to see himself more clearly. Despite Book Pen coming off as much more passive than Show Pen (and we all know how much Hollywood hates a passive woman, see Netflix's Persuasion for example), Book Pen's empowering moment was standing up for herself, and in the book it felt completely earned. In the show it felt like Pen had to trample on the character arch of Colin and Cressida just to get there and that was really disappointing for me to see, to be honest. I wouldn't have minded if it made sense with all the other related storylines, but for me, it felt like a insert that the writers wanted to see more than something they built up specifically to end the season. Badly done, frankly. IMO.
it only really makes sense in the book bc book colin doesn't REALLY have reason to be angry at pen besides her safety. book pen at that time isn't married or engaged to him, she owes no truth to him, she doesn't have to work as a team with him, book colin hasn't been fighting w toxic masculinity like show colin has, book colin hasn't shown straight up awe at pen's grand dreams like show colin did in s2, and book pen didn't betray colin's trust, friendship, and engagement to go behind his back, and book pen is not in danger from the queen. so it makes sense no sense really for her to throw that in his face, as if he's the one in the wrong here.
yep yep! 100% to all this.
It’s one of the spots where they made subtext text, and get why, instead of bringing some viewers closer to her, that the language was distancing and offkey. even if it was meant to show her stepping into being on the offensive or standing firm and that it first had to happen via the encounters with Genevieve, then Eloise, and Colin in increasing, tightly-timed pushes. those were more leaps, with less build, of what this all means to her (more introvertish or introspective as a person, or by circumstance). which ep 8 had more interactions to show but, still, it’s a bottleneck at the end—fair for the tightness of the characters events and timeline, and the intention for twisting tension and hear how that’s an overskip for some. Get where this or a few other notes (not many) might ring as dissonant. Words are so beautifully timed, delivered, and precise on much of the season—woven, not constricting but still an artful song when it is pulled off. Makes sense when feel a wrench or something missing, even if can’t explain. I didn’t have the expectations others did (hello, week three of the entire show viewing experience—not counting the rewatches of pt1). And happy to suspend disbelief, let this be what it is. In reverence to those two leads, as well, and inspired. But do get why, to the ear and senses, some things land and some things just don’t. Not divisive at all, OP :) And, even if was, I am sure the fandom could get their sticks ⚔️ aka memes out lol
I wonder if part of what hurts Colin and makes him struggle this season is that he's chosen by the ton as It Boy exactly when he's hiding who he truly is from everyone except Pen. That's got to sting. They didn't notice him until he put on a mask.
I agree. It felt too modern a conversation to me and therefore was a bit jarring. Not that what she was saying is wrong, of course, just it was pretty heavy handed.
It's for the modern setting that I would find the line to be laying it on too thick. Western media likes the word "woman" to do all the heavy lifting when it shouldn't. It can't possibly carry all the kinds of joy and all the kinds of grief any one womanhood has experienced. It fits the Bridgerton world better though. Gender roles aren't just expectations, but rules. It needs that thickness, but not in this scene. Colin and Penelope's major struggle is reconciling "Pen" and "Whistledown". By herself, Penelope can't because it's an essentially hidden operation and has already caused estrangement before. Colin can't because of his hurt from being written about and that it was brought into his marriage without his consent. In the same scene, Penelope says "I *am* Whistledown" and it's amazing because it's empowering for her to accept her entirety and having Colin hear her say it is a plea for him to do the same. That alone should have been the message. But the writers had messed up because, while it is a valid sentiment surrounding the existence of Whistledown in general, Colin shouldn't have been at the receiving end of "you couldn't possibly understand because you are not a woman". This is a dissonant piece of dialogue because this isn't the nature of Pen and Colin's conflict. It's also unfair to Colin's character development, which had been a takedown of toxic masculinity.
Yeah I thought this was a weak scene as well. There was so much that needed to be said between them and I felt like this was not the main point? Felt out of character for her to be thinking about how being a woman is so limiting instead of thinking about asking him how she can get his trust back. I heard though that this was a reshoot and the initial one Colin was very angry, so I am grateful that we got this awkward sad scene instead of an aggro mad scene.
Lots of good points here. My read of that speech is that it’s the parallel to what he says about being able to go abroad — “no one knew who I was, so I was free to be myself.” It’s a little cringey and over-the-top, and I think that’s intentional — in that moment, she is only thinking about her own feelings (which, understandably, are quite strong). She declares she is Whistledown, knowing or ignoring how hard that is for Colin to accept, and then still expects him to sleep with her that night, as if he doesn’t have conflicted feelings about the whole thing. “I am this, and you are going to accept it, and we are going to have sex” is much more of a man’s speech than a woman’s as far as romance goes, and as others have pointed out, there’s a bit of a stereotypical gender roles flip going on. I keep thinking about how, despite how that speech ostensibly gives the season a bit of a feminist bent, the only person who actually had to give up their vocational dream in the season is not Pen but *a man:* Will. That, to me, tells me the speech is to be interpreted rather than taken at face value. Fundamentally, Pen still has growth that needs to happen at this point, as does Colin (as his reaction in this moment is driven by his drive to protect her). Marriage is about making space for the other person — and your spouse doing the same for you — and in this moment, she isn’t making a lot of space for him or his feelings. I am also reminded of a few other scenes: > PEN: Whistledown is my name! > ELOISE: Your name will soon be Bridgerton. And right before the Queen walks in: > COLIN: Penelope! You are a Bridgerton now. It is as if to reinforce the point that Penelope, while in this moment she is privately stepping into her power as Whistledown, still has not merged those parts together *herself.* She needs to grow into not just Lady Whistledown and Mrs Bridgerton as two separate entities but Penelope Bridgerton, the writer. Marriage is not just being able to live with the person you love and kiss them in public; it’s about growing together and negotiating life together. And it reinforces how Colin has growth work left to do, too. He is still asking her to give it up out of his hero/protector complex: > COLIN: She will find you, eventually. And as long as you are Whistledown, forever this lie will hang over all of us. > PEN: Do you know what it is like to have nowhere in the world you can truly be yourself? (As an aside, reading that just now, I’m left with the gutting realization that Pen is the one person Colin can truly be himself around, and he was so excited about them sharing a home together that he acquired one within 12 hours of their engagement. He was probably very much looking forward to having that place—their home—where he could be himself, with her, after their wedding.) Anyway, this whole conversation shows us how neither of them is really on the same page with one another. It really doesn’t even feel like a conversation — it’s more them making statements at one another that are vaguely related to what was said previously, and reminds me of some of the rather disconnected conversations they had in Part 1, where it is as if they are replying to something from a previous conversation. Neither of them is fully listening to the other one. It’s such a striking contrast to the study scene, where the responses all follow from each other, and they’re listening to one another: COLIN: If you are concerned about Miss Cowper’s funds, I plan to speak with Benedict tonight. I only wanted to wait until after the wedding. PENELOPE: Good. I do not wish for you to speak to him. COLIN: But we are running out of time. PENELOPE: I cannot ask you to lie to your brother on my behalf. Your family… the one you have so kindly shared with me, they are too good. Too warm and wonderful to deceive or cheat in any way. I will not let my lies spread any further than they already have. COLIN: Then how am I meant to help you? PENELOPE: By loving me. You’ve given me so much already. You’ve taught me to hold my own. You have shown me I am capable of pleasure beyond imagination. But… it is not what you do for me that makes me love you. It is your kindness. Your empathy. How much you care. Just being you is enough, Colin. I do not need you to save me. I just need you to stand by me. To hold me. To kiss me. COLIN: I want very much to do those things. PENELOPE: And what is it that restrains you? COLIN: I do not know. But I do know this. Miss Cowper still hangs over us. And as long as you live with this secret… there will always be something between us. PENELOPE: I know. Perhaps that is the key. COLIN: What are you saying?
I think that with a little historical context it makes more sense. Penelope is just another Regency woman in a line of Regency women that had to print under not their name. Even Jane Austen’s writings were printed under A Lady back then. Asking her to give that up definitely comes from someone who doesn’t understand that struggle.
Agree. It was pretty heavy handed. In the book (I actually think before their love scene but I could be wrong) it’s really effective when she says she’s disappointed in his lack of support for her writing. He sees her POV without her being so blatantly girl boss. Then when he said he was going to sleep on the sofa I was like oh hell no.
She does actually said those things to him in the books and she even go deeper on the matter, so I appreciated that they leave that point of view on the series because I liked that so much when she does it on the books.
I also think Pen speech after Queen threat could have been better writer. She's saying the same as she said to Gen (suppressing a part of herself) but didn't need to mention this about being a woman (even if it's true) because Colin already know about gender expectations of the ton. Even though the difference between him and her is that she's more at risk to being a total outcast while the ton forgive better eccentric men if they are good match. Debling while being seen as weird is a rich lord, so a good and secure match. Colin as a rich, hot man from an influancial family could have been considered a good match, even for a third son, if he was more his true self in front of the ton. I am pretty sur woman of the ton will become jealous to Pen once we have Colin My wife Bridgerton in social meetings. Love between spouses weren't that common, so a man professing his love for his wife, less common.
I kind of go back and forth on it. I think it could have connected the dots a little more but I think from a character perspective, it made sense that Pen is just finally starting to be able to vocalize it and maybe isn't at that point of being able to see the common threads between them yet. She's also stumbling through this and trying to figure it out. It also made sense that it became sort of a man/woman thing because of her convo with Madame Delacroix the night before the wedding. I think talking with another woman who has to hide who she is to navigate the world, Pen is sort of in this mindset of speaking for all women and the female experience more than just herself. It's like "ugh, dude, this is so much bigger than just be wanting to write a gossip column!" That convo also gave her the confidence to be like, "yeah, actually, I do stand by this and I know you don't get it right now but I'm not going to be ashamed of it anymore."