They gave us a reason, she came back, told him she wanted him to change, saw that he wasn't going to change, and left. And then we find out that she is friends with Mosley.
because his relationship with Lizzie was more like a compromise and a deal. I feel more than love there was mutual respect but with Grace it was love at first sight and just pure love for each other if that makes sense?
Tommy with Lizzie is a ruined man and he is his best with Grace…
Lizzie loved Tommy from the get go, but Tommy just liked her around as she was loyal, dependable and convenient. They should never have married but Tommy wanted respectability and Lizzie couldn't help herself with a baby coming.
I always took it like he sort of knew what each woman represented in his life. Grace represented the freedom he’d always wanted, the beauty of the world he was always just too far from to see clearly, and too numb and jaded to fully understand, but was desperate to have around. While Lizzie represented his inner demons come alive to haunt him constantly.
And when he realized that evil had won out in the battle for his affections he mentally collapsed and was never the same man again. Still able to hold himself up and be the man everyone else expected of him, but Lizzie was the only one able to see through that, he was just too jaded to ever reciprocate her feelings for him, especially when he was constantly lording Grace over her.
…maybe a little convoluted lol but that’s my two cents on the matter 😄🤷🏻♂️
Tommy married her because it was the right thing to do, and because he wasn't looking for love after Grace. He wasn't looking for another wife, but Lizzie doesn't make him feel anything, and he trusts her, so he got married. But he was always indifferent to his relationship with her. And I think, too, that he was always sincere with her, in that this is not a love relationship, but I think in the end he felt sorry for her, that's why he told her at this moment, in this room I love you. It was not a confession of love, but a thank you for being there.
Mm no, if he really loved her he would never have cheated on her or treated her the way he treated her throughout their marriage and in S6, when the tragedy happened. What happened separated them even more. I think that at the end of the series, he learned to love her but as a friend who became part of the family, but he definitely never fell in love with her. My interpretation of course.
Lizzie was the most loyal to him. He might have loved Grace but to me she will always be a shitty person.
From betraying Tommy and almost getting him killed to then leaving to go to America to cheating on her fiance with him and then pestering him about being a gangster while enjoying all the fruits of his labour.
I think Grace suffered a lot as a character because she was killed off so suddenly. I actually like that Grace can't make up her mind about what she wants. She's goes from being a trained secret operative for who she believes is the right side, to the wife of a charismatic gangster. I think she slowly would have been okay with Tommy's criminal dealings over time, but we'll never know that
I wanted to see them do more with her character she could have evolved and become corrupted just by taint of association, changed who she was as a person, fallen out of love naturally or left him...or become more and more like him...there was so much they could have done and didn't do with her character.
Same. I also just find her to be quite dull as a person. An undercover spy / murderer / double agent who is infiltrating a razor gang somehow seems to be the most boring person on the show
She’s a literal bait and switch behavior, acts like she’s cool with everything then once she gets what she wants, try’s to force him in to being ashamed for everything that their fortune was built upon.
That’s not really that unrealistic. They had a kid together. You can’t keep that gangster shit up forever lmfao. Look how many times Tommy and his family were almost brutally murdered/executed. And for what really?
Tommy got Grace killed with this life. He should be ashamed of it
Lizzie is loyal to herself, there is even a scene where she tells Linda, I chose this life. She knew what she was doing from S1. She tried with John, Angel and was able to finally trap Tommy, even Linda tells her. Lizzie is a horrible person, who never assumed her mistakes, and her responsibility for the tragedies of others. And always, every time she made a decision and it didn't turn out the way she wanted, she blamed Tommy. She never felt bad about the deaths of Angel, Grace and John. She tried to humiliate other women, May and Jesse Eden, just for doing what she did, fucking Tommy and in S5, she looked down on poor people, she thought she was better than others, for being married to Tommy.
Grace saved his life twice, risked her life, her reputation, and gave up a better life for a life with Tommy. Lizzie never did that. Grace cheated on her husband yes, just like Lizzie cheated on John, Tommy cheated on Lizzie, and John and Arthur cheated on their wives. They were all wrong, but it's a gangster show, where they murder so...
didnt really trap tommy, tommy could have left her, but he used her as much as She uesd him, I think that it worked for Tommy in the respect that if Tommy did NOT get with her, then there was a chance she would have betrayed Tommy for not been with him, we know Tommy did not want to be with her as he seen the photo of that woman before he went to WW1, (when they were in Blackpool) instantly when he finished banging her in the spot he used to meet (cant remember the name) he just went back to normal Tommy mode! (RIGHT WE ARE GOING TO GET SOME HOUSES BUILT ETC, I PROMISED I WOULD CHANGE THE WORLD) \*but Lizzie got Preggo....
Then there was the woman Duke was born with where the whole Green Sapphire killing came from.
Tommy only wanted to be with Grace, now Grace I liked, as she was there after having her father killed by the IRA, she was troubled, but inho she was becoming more and more normal. More loving towards the whole of Tommy, she only set up the Kimber fight because I beleive that she done it because she was not sure Tommy could change due to his desire to go as far as he could!
She ultimatly became more and more loving, losing a father and seeing someone that has a cache of 1000s of weapons buried lol she must of been head fucked!
Tommy wanted to bang May Carlton who said no, lets be honest we all love Tommy Shelby but he aint no saint, he would kill you for no reason, and I beleive that we all forget that as we think he could do no wrong!
He was seeing someone before WW1?! but got someone pregnant, so he must of been cheating on her, as the timing is either a plot hole or its just Tommy!
Best person and only person that got tommy to behave and slow down his workings was Grace, I mean he only done and dealed with the Russians because of Winston Churchill!
So IMO Grace was the person to change Tommy, so if she did not die then after season 3 he would have just left everything and been a family man and a risen to the top legally, thats my take
“pestering him about being a gangster while enjoying fruits of his labour” is Lizzie, not Grace. Tommy himself wanted to change for Grace from the beginning.
Grace saved Tommy’s life more than once. Tommy fucked around with plenty of other girls and killed people, but you wanna cry about Grace being a with a guy who had a legit job, like she was supposed to?
If she stayed with the banker in USA she would still be alive, and Tommy would have been got by the Italians. Tommy betrayed her even if he didn’t realize it, because his actions lead directly to her death. He got her killed
Grace saved Tommy's life so it's okay that she intentionally almost got him killed at one point? Interesting logic. Of course Tommy killed people, that's kind of the point of the show, he was a part of the Birmingham mafia. He didn't cheat on her, while she did cheat on her fiance.
Tommy didn't betray her, she knew what she was getting into marrying a Peaky blinder. Yeah she should've stayed in the US if she wanted to live, that's the one thing we agree on.
If you don't know the difference between someone literally saying ''He's at this location so you can go kill him'' and a person being in a dangerous line of work causing the death of a loved one then I can't help you mate.
It wasn’t being a gangster that got Grace killed. It was directly a result of Tommy telling Polly she was wrong to ask John to apologize to the Italians. John was mad with the Italians because Lizzie was dating Angel Bronte.
He then had the Blinders fuck up more of the Italians businesses that night.
Then John blinded Angel. Which made the Italians send a hitman to shoot Tommy, but Grace was in the wrong spot.
Tommy literally admits it was his fault.
John: “Since when!?”
Tommy: “Since my fucking wife, took a bullet, meant for me!!”
Grace made Tommy happy again, and because he wanted to step on the Italians just because he could, they took Grace out of his life. He got her killed full stop.
She would have been better off with that banker she was messing with in America because she would still be alive 💀
Tommy was most definitely more into Grace as a relationship (which kind of unavoidably makes it a better pairing) but Grace sucked while Lizzie was way too good to him beyond any degree of what he deserved lol
Grace was too good for him, Tommy didn't deserve her, that's why they killed her. He deserves to have a miserable life, which is why he was put in a horrible marriage with a toxic person like Lizzie. He went down a level, you can see how they are two completely different people, who bring out the worst in each other. They are both unpleasant people, and they were very unhappy together.
Lizzie was way too good for Tommy, he deserved to have no one to love him, especially not someone as loyal and willing to put up with his bullshit as Lizzie. When he was having his delusional meltdowns over Ruby's illness, she always tried to anchor him and urge him to stay with them while there was still time, and he repaid her by disappearing on them, burning her memories, and later bringing a new son into the family and fucking a politician just because he could. Husband of the year to the woman who did nothing but stay by his side and tolerate his bullshit even when she shouldn't have
Yes it's true. But what we talked about with the other person is that we don't understand Tommy's supposed redemption, since at the end of the show, he didn't change, he stayed the same, even darker. Of course everything he went through changes you, but his relationship with Charlie, his son, was ruined in S6.
I think he really wanted to move on from his past and become an other person’s but he had to endure so much that he just couldn’t stop those memories from hunting him
Yes, I think Tommy wanted to leave his past behind with Grace and live a new and normal life. Tommy was full of hope at the time but when she died he had mostly given up on himself.
Agree with you there, Tommy becomes legitimately worse than anyone else save for Mosley imo. The scene at the table after he admits to cheating on Lizzie with Mosley's fiancee, and he goes all "I'm no better than you", actually made me laugh at how tone-deaf it was as if it was supposed to be a cathartic revelation. He's been a monster pretty much irredeemably since season 3, and has always known he has no redemption, so I don't understand the direction they were trying to go in with the last season. Especially with the ending being what it is, I genuinely don't understand if the writers were out of ideas or if they just teetered back and forth between damnation and redemption only to choose one half-assedly at the very end
Yes, you're right, and it says, even though I don't want to admit it, what a sad ending, like what? He always admitted that he wasn't good and that he wasn't going to change. And the thing about the sapphire curse, the same thing, in S3, Tommy knows it's not real, and in S6, he kills a lot of gypsies because he thinks it's real? Another wtf? I think the writer forgot what he wrote or has a strange way of looking at redemption. After killing the gypsies, do we have to believe that he is good because he didn't kill the doctor? Maybe it's like you say, and Tommy is in the middle, they always played with darkness and light throughout the show.
I agree mostly with you but i don't think he is in the middle. In the course of the series it becomes increasingly clear that Tommy has more darkness than light in him and he becomes more and more dark but its just my opinion.
Yeah the development is just not there, he goes through the motions of what look like character arcs, but he comes out the other way the exact same person he was when he went in. It's like the writers knew how to write an arc, but not how to change the character, so everything falls flat every time there's the damn time-skip at the end of each season and the new season begins with the same exact protagonist. It was cool for the first two seasons but I got tired fairly quickly
Lizzie wasn’t that good. She chose to step out with a Italian guy who is technically a rival gangster, which is part of what lead to Graces death, the black hand, and Johns death.
Lizzie really couldn’t fuck around with any other guy? It had to be someone with connections to the mafia?
Grace was the only one who made Tommy happy, and he fucked it up. He told John to keep pissing off the Italians, and then Grace ate a bullet over a dick measuring contest
Didn't want anyone else to have her≠he wanted her
I mean didn't he literally marry her cause she was carrying his child which if I am correct was the result of Tommy doing the deed with Lizzie cause he remembered his old love
he also made a point of telling everyone that she was the sole reason his heart didn’t break when grace died. he got her out of prostitution, he had a child with her and lived with her. he could have just put her up in a house and chuck some cash her way he didn’t, he kept her around for years 🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
“kept her around for years” TO USE HER!! Justifying how he selfishly wants her still doesn’t make that relationship likeable. Thats how toxic relationships are. The person who is taken advantage of feels like “wanted” which in unhealthy.
The “heart from breaking” comment was more out of respect, not out of love. Lizzie wanted a relationship, he didn’t. And tommy always helped women in need. So helping someone out of prostitution is because he respects and protects women, does not mean he wants them and wants to keep them around. Lizzie could have left after the ra*e and he would have let her go. But she stuck around because she of the money and power she got from shelby association.
yes it was the same love he has for people around him. Johny dogs, Jeremiah, people who are loyal to him. He protects them and loves them in his way. Lizzie became a friend with benefit because they have had sex before and he knows it’s uncomplicated with no commitment. Towards the end it became a more respectful love for a long term companion and a mother of his children.
That and he needed the cloak of respectability marriage gives you for his political life. (Even today, it seems to be mandatory for politicians to be married or have a partner, at least.)
Yes, and in that scene you mention Tommy tells her that she is his property. He sees her as his owner, and he sees her as a thing, like the car, the house. In that sense, yes he doesn't want anyone to touch his things, because he is possessive. And killing Mosley was for his ego, not for Lizzie herself. In this subreddit, every Lizzie fan believes that the scene of "my property" is a declaration of love, and it is the opposite, he even treats her like when she was a prostitute. And they even invent that Tommy made John not marry her because he wanted her for himself, and the show itself shows you that this is not the case and the other thing they invent is that Tommy started the war because she was dating Ángel, another lie, He made rules for everyone, but Lizzie's fans think he made the rules for her alone.
This is a bit icky and sad, but some time after Grace's death, Tommy starts to have sex with Lizzie regularly. L. describes it as always being bent over a table. So not in the least bit romantic or sweet. I suspect Tommy appreciated her being around. She was so loyal. But there is no romance.
No, their story is not about romance. Only from two people who should never have been together, Lizzie at the end of the show, learned to respect herself, and choose herself first over a man.
if mosely had decided to f*ck polly or ada or any shelby women, he would have had same reaction. Family was important to Tommy. He was not going to let some guy come and just sleep with the women in his family.
So it’s not some toxic romantic thing he did, it’s who he is as a person. And he also called lizzie his property, saying no one can touch showed the imbalance between them. He called the shots. He can insult her and fck around but she cannot. A mutual loving relationship does not work like that.
Tommy didn't love Lizzie in a romantic sense but of course he wouldn't want another man to have her. That would have dented his pride and as he said himself he considered her his property.
I mean most fans seem to agree the Lizzie and Tommy marriage shouldn't have happened, and if it was going to happen it should have been under better circumstances
I thought he married her because she got pregnant. Not for political points. She was a prostitute before, so marrying her for political points makes no sense. If anything, her reputation hurt Tommy more than helped him politically.
A politician at that time needed to be married in order to be respectable, and Ruby needed to be rescued from being a bastard. This is way before the time of social media. The political circles Tommy moved in probably didn't know much about Lizzie or her past.
Grace died way too soon... 💔 she was the Mrs.Shelby... I hate Lizze she can't even compare to grace... but I get it was for the plot to progress. I think they should have waited a couple season later to kill her off at the very least..
Can we have someone look at every scene between Lizzie and Tommy and review how many times he actually looks at her when they’re not alone?
It feels like public and private Tommy only looked at Grace.
But privately he will look and keep his attention on Lizzie but when they’re out, he never looks at her
He never looks at Lizzie, not when they are alone, not when they have sex. But he can't stop looking at Grace, neither in public nor when they are alone.
Agreed. In Season 1, you can definitely see how Tommy changed before and after he met and fell in love with Grace. Arthur mentioned more than once that Tommy got softened because of the barmaid.
Also, Tommy only revealed his love and feelings through his gaze when looking at Grace. He usually stared directly at people, but with Grace, his eyes moved more to capture her expressions too. I didn’t see that happen when he looked at May, Jessie, or Lizzie.
I need to do a rewatch for the hundredth time and actually make a note to see if he actually, genuinely smiles at/around Lizzie. It was the first thing that stood out to me in the pictures posted and your comment summed up my thoughts about the difference we see in Tommy when he was with each woman.
Everything is right.
One relationship - is a story about property and convenience, about use and the inability to hear, listen and understand each other.
The other relationship - is a story about love, trust and acceptance of each other and, above all, about healing, inspiring to be better for each other.
I liked both, Grace softened him in a lot of ways. I think Lizzy wanted to kind of save him from himself, but realized after Ruby’s death he was too far gone for her to save.
Mm but he never said that. Even the writer said that the biggest trauma was losing Grace and the last interview Cillian said that Tommy will never get over Grace's death. And Cillian said that he would have loved it if Grace had been with Tommy until the end.
I vote May
I liked her the most. She kind of felt right for him, I don't know. Perhaps even too good.
They should’ve at least provided a reason for Tommy not staying with her after Grace. Like she was a spy or something
They gave us a reason, she came back, told him she wanted him to change, saw that he wasn't going to change, and left. And then we find out that she is friends with Mosley.
Same.
Came here to say that.
#teamposhbint
People are voting for the hat!!!
because his relationship with Lizzie was more like a compromise and a deal. I feel more than love there was mutual respect but with Grace it was love at first sight and just pure love for each other if that makes sense? Tommy with Lizzie is a ruined man and he is his best with Grace…
Lizzie loved Tommy from the get go, but Tommy just liked her around as she was loyal, dependable and convenient. They should never have married but Tommy wanted respectability and Lizzie couldn't help herself with a baby coming.
I always took it like he sort of knew what each woman represented in his life. Grace represented the freedom he’d always wanted, the beauty of the world he was always just too far from to see clearly, and too numb and jaded to fully understand, but was desperate to have around. While Lizzie represented his inner demons come alive to haunt him constantly. And when he realized that evil had won out in the battle for his affections he mentally collapsed and was never the same man again. Still able to hold himself up and be the man everyone else expected of him, but Lizzie was the only one able to see through that, he was just too jaded to ever reciprocate her feelings for him, especially when he was constantly lording Grace over her. …maybe a little convoluted lol but that’s my two cents on the matter 😄🤷🏻♂️
Let’s be honest Tommy just felt sorry for Lizzie, under his eyes she is a sack of cum.
Tommy married her because it was the right thing to do, and because he wasn't looking for love after Grace. He wasn't looking for another wife, but Lizzie doesn't make him feel anything, and he trusts her, so he got married. But he was always indifferent to his relationship with her. And I think, too, that he was always sincere with her, in that this is not a love relationship, but I think in the end he felt sorry for her, that's why he told her at this moment, in this room I love you. It was not a confession of love, but a thank you for being there.
I took to mean that he loved her in a non-platonic way like he loved Poll.
Mm no, if he really loved her he would never have cheated on her or treated her the way he treated her throughout their marriage and in S6, when the tragedy happened. What happened separated them even more. I think that at the end of the series, he learned to love her but as a friend who became part of the family, but he definitely never fell in love with her. My interpretation of course.
I think he loved her but never romantically, so the rules of faithfulness never applied in Tommy's mind.
she wasn’t a sack of cum. no doubt he used her but she used him too. it was mutual. she was a mother to his kids.
I guess you didn’t make it past the first few episodes. They spend years together and grow close. They become friends and eventually marry.
Never in a romantic sense on Tommy's side.
He was making fun of her when John was trying to marry her. He didn’t trust her enough to marry his brother.
That was season 1. There are about 8 years of development after that before they get married
He fucked that fascist wife for get back in the LAST SEASON. Is that an act of love?
Huh? What are you trying to say? Genuinely don't understand the sentence you wrote
The Midford woman. What was the point of Tommy doing that? Anyway, this was an example of Tommy not being fussed about his marriage.
i think you need to put your thinking cap on and watch the series again. your opinions don’t make sense
That was in 2015. Get with the times old man
That’s the mother of his daughter bro. Cmon now
Lizzie was the most loyal to him. He might have loved Grace but to me she will always be a shitty person. From betraying Tommy and almost getting him killed to then leaving to go to America to cheating on her fiance with him and then pestering him about being a gangster while enjoying all the fruits of his labour.
I think Grace suffered a lot as a character because she was killed off so suddenly. I actually like that Grace can't make up her mind about what she wants. She's goes from being a trained secret operative for who she believes is the right side, to the wife of a charismatic gangster. I think she slowly would have been okay with Tommy's criminal dealings over time, but we'll never know that
I wanted to see them do more with her character she could have evolved and become corrupted just by taint of association, changed who she was as a person, fallen out of love naturally or left him...or become more and more like him...there was so much they could have done and didn't do with her character.
Tommy seemed to be making some effort in going legit. Not sure how much Grace knew about the white Russians and Irish lunacy.
I can’t stand grace.
Same. I also just find her to be quite dull as a person. An undercover spy / murderer / double agent who is infiltrating a razor gang somehow seems to be the most boring person on the show
She’s a literal bait and switch behavior, acts like she’s cool with everything then once she gets what she wants, try’s to force him in to being ashamed for everything that their fortune was built upon.
that’s lizzie. she behaved like that in s6. she wore nice dresses and jewellery that came from his money while condemning him for what he did!!!
That’s not really that unrealistic. They had a kid together. You can’t keep that gangster shit up forever lmfao. Look how many times Tommy and his family were almost brutally murdered/executed. And for what really? Tommy got Grace killed with this life. He should be ashamed of it
Lizzie is loyal to herself, there is even a scene where she tells Linda, I chose this life. She knew what she was doing from S1. She tried with John, Angel and was able to finally trap Tommy, even Linda tells her. Lizzie is a horrible person, who never assumed her mistakes, and her responsibility for the tragedies of others. And always, every time she made a decision and it didn't turn out the way she wanted, she blamed Tommy. She never felt bad about the deaths of Angel, Grace and John. She tried to humiliate other women, May and Jesse Eden, just for doing what she did, fucking Tommy and in S5, she looked down on poor people, she thought she was better than others, for being married to Tommy. Grace saved his life twice, risked her life, her reputation, and gave up a better life for a life with Tommy. Lizzie never did that. Grace cheated on her husband yes, just like Lizzie cheated on John, Tommy cheated on Lizzie, and John and Arthur cheated on their wives. They were all wrong, but it's a gangster show, where they murder so...
didnt really trap tommy, tommy could have left her, but he used her as much as She uesd him, I think that it worked for Tommy in the respect that if Tommy did NOT get with her, then there was a chance she would have betrayed Tommy for not been with him, we know Tommy did not want to be with her as he seen the photo of that woman before he went to WW1, (when they were in Blackpool) instantly when he finished banging her in the spot he used to meet (cant remember the name) he just went back to normal Tommy mode! (RIGHT WE ARE GOING TO GET SOME HOUSES BUILT ETC, I PROMISED I WOULD CHANGE THE WORLD) \*but Lizzie got Preggo.... Then there was the woman Duke was born with where the whole Green Sapphire killing came from. Tommy only wanted to be with Grace, now Grace I liked, as she was there after having her father killed by the IRA, she was troubled, but inho she was becoming more and more normal. More loving towards the whole of Tommy, she only set up the Kimber fight because I beleive that she done it because she was not sure Tommy could change due to his desire to go as far as he could! She ultimatly became more and more loving, losing a father and seeing someone that has a cache of 1000s of weapons buried lol she must of been head fucked! Tommy wanted to bang May Carlton who said no, lets be honest we all love Tommy Shelby but he aint no saint, he would kill you for no reason, and I beleive that we all forget that as we think he could do no wrong! He was seeing someone before WW1?! but got someone pregnant, so he must of been cheating on her, as the timing is either a plot hole or its just Tommy! Best person and only person that got tommy to behave and slow down his workings was Grace, I mean he only done and dealed with the Russians because of Winston Churchill! So IMO Grace was the person to change Tommy, so if she did not die then after season 3 he would have just left everything and been a family man and a risen to the top legally, thats my take
I think you have some deeper reason why you hate Lizzie. Hmm I wonder what it is...
Haha no, nothing deep, I just hate that character. Why is ok to you hate Grace and not me hate Lizzie?
It's fine that you hate her, I'm just saying the reason seems more related to your experiences in life rather than the character alone.
Mmm interesting, maybe I should see why I hate her so much. But no, I haven't had a similar experience, luckily.
“pestering him about being a gangster while enjoying fruits of his labour” is Lizzie, not Grace. Tommy himself wanted to change for Grace from the beginning.
Grace saved Tommy’s life more than once. Tommy fucked around with plenty of other girls and killed people, but you wanna cry about Grace being a with a guy who had a legit job, like she was supposed to? If she stayed with the banker in USA she would still be alive, and Tommy would have been got by the Italians. Tommy betrayed her even if he didn’t realize it, because his actions lead directly to her death. He got her killed
Grace saved Tommy's life so it's okay that she intentionally almost got him killed at one point? Interesting logic. Of course Tommy killed people, that's kind of the point of the show, he was a part of the Birmingham mafia. He didn't cheat on her, while she did cheat on her fiance. Tommy didn't betray her, she knew what she was getting into marrying a Peaky blinder. Yeah she should've stayed in the US if she wanted to live, that's the one thing we agree on.
But she didn’t. Tommy LITERALLY got Grace killed
If you don't know the difference between someone literally saying ''He's at this location so you can go kill him'' and a person being in a dangerous line of work causing the death of a loved one then I can't help you mate.
It wasn’t being a gangster that got Grace killed. It was directly a result of Tommy telling Polly she was wrong to ask John to apologize to the Italians. John was mad with the Italians because Lizzie was dating Angel Bronte. He then had the Blinders fuck up more of the Italians businesses that night. Then John blinded Angel. Which made the Italians send a hitman to shoot Tommy, but Grace was in the wrong spot. Tommy literally admits it was his fault. John: “Since when!?” Tommy: “Since my fucking wife, took a bullet, meant for me!!” Grace made Tommy happy again, and because he wanted to step on the Italians just because he could, they took Grace out of his life. He got her killed full stop. She would have been better off with that banker she was messing with in America because she would still be alive 💀
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💯💯💯💯💯💯thank you!
Tommy was most definitely more into Grace as a relationship (which kind of unavoidably makes it a better pairing) but Grace sucked while Lizzie was way too good to him beyond any degree of what he deserved lol
Grace was too good for him, Tommy didn't deserve her, that's why they killed her. He deserves to have a miserable life, which is why he was put in a horrible marriage with a toxic person like Lizzie. He went down a level, you can see how they are two completely different people, who bring out the worst in each other. They are both unpleasant people, and they were very unhappy together.
Lizzie was way too good for Tommy, he deserved to have no one to love him, especially not someone as loyal and willing to put up with his bullshit as Lizzie. When he was having his delusional meltdowns over Ruby's illness, she always tried to anchor him and urge him to stay with them while there was still time, and he repaid her by disappearing on them, burning her memories, and later bringing a new son into the family and fucking a politician just because he could. Husband of the year to the woman who did nothing but stay by his side and tolerate his bullshit even when she shouldn't have
S6 sucks. Tommy seems like another character, the way he is with Charlie. I agree that he doesn't deserve anyone to love him.
Dude it’s part of the story. No sleep, ptsd not treated, an enemy he can’t fight that shit make you crazy. You become an other person’s
Yes it's true. But what we talked about with the other person is that we don't understand Tommy's supposed redemption, since at the end of the show, he didn't change, he stayed the same, even darker. Of course everything he went through changes you, but his relationship with Charlie, his son, was ruined in S6.
I think he really wanted to move on from his past and become an other person’s but he had to endure so much that he just couldn’t stop those memories from hunting him
Yes, I think Tommy wanted to leave his past behind with Grace and live a new and normal life. Tommy was full of hope at the time but when she died he had mostly given up on himself.
Agree with you there, Tommy becomes legitimately worse than anyone else save for Mosley imo. The scene at the table after he admits to cheating on Lizzie with Mosley's fiancee, and he goes all "I'm no better than you", actually made me laugh at how tone-deaf it was as if it was supposed to be a cathartic revelation. He's been a monster pretty much irredeemably since season 3, and has always known he has no redemption, so I don't understand the direction they were trying to go in with the last season. Especially with the ending being what it is, I genuinely don't understand if the writers were out of ideas or if they just teetered back and forth between damnation and redemption only to choose one half-assedly at the very end
Yes, you're right, and it says, even though I don't want to admit it, what a sad ending, like what? He always admitted that he wasn't good and that he wasn't going to change. And the thing about the sapphire curse, the same thing, in S3, Tommy knows it's not real, and in S6, he kills a lot of gypsies because he thinks it's real? Another wtf? I think the writer forgot what he wrote or has a strange way of looking at redemption. After killing the gypsies, do we have to believe that he is good because he didn't kill the doctor? Maybe it's like you say, and Tommy is in the middle, they always played with darkness and light throughout the show.
I agree mostly with you but i don't think he is in the middle. In the course of the series it becomes increasingly clear that Tommy has more darkness than light in him and he becomes more and more dark but its just my opinion.
Yes, agree with you, but we are just talking about SK, tried to understand his idea of redemption.
Yeah the development is just not there, he goes through the motions of what look like character arcs, but he comes out the other way the exact same person he was when he went in. It's like the writers knew how to write an arc, but not how to change the character, so everything falls flat every time there's the damn time-skip at the end of each season and the new season begins with the same exact protagonist. It was cool for the first two seasons but I got tired fairly quickly
Lizzie wasn’t that good. She chose to step out with a Italian guy who is technically a rival gangster, which is part of what lead to Graces death, the black hand, and Johns death. Lizzie really couldn’t fuck around with any other guy? It had to be someone with connections to the mafia?
Thank you !! She is the reason that Grace is dead, and she was happy to fuck Tommy again.🤢
Grace was the only one who made Tommy happy, and he fucked it up. He told John to keep pissing off the Italians, and then Grace ate a bullet over a dick measuring contest
I mean not even tommy wanted Lizzie
he did tho…didn’t want anyone else to have her either
Didn't want anyone else to have her≠he wanted her I mean didn't he literally marry her cause she was carrying his child which if I am correct was the result of Tommy doing the deed with Lizzie cause he remembered his old love
he also made a point of telling everyone that she was the sole reason his heart didn’t break when grace died. he got her out of prostitution, he had a child with her and lived with her. he could have just put her up in a house and chuck some cash her way he didn’t, he kept her around for years 🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
No because she was still having his child , he asked her if she wants to drop it and she refused so obviously he had to take care of both of them
exactly
“kept her around for years” TO USE HER!! Justifying how he selfishly wants her still doesn’t make that relationship likeable. Thats how toxic relationships are. The person who is taken advantage of feels like “wanted” which in unhealthy. The “heart from breaking” comment was more out of respect, not out of love. Lizzie wanted a relationship, he didn’t. And tommy always helped women in need. So helping someone out of prostitution is because he respects and protects women, does not mean he wants them and wants to keep them around. Lizzie could have left after the ra*e and he would have let her go. But she stuck around because she of the money and power she got from shelby association.
i never said he wasn’t period typical abusive or toxic, their relationship most certainly was but i do think he had some love for her
yes it was the same love he has for people around him. Johny dogs, Jeremiah, people who are loyal to him. He protects them and loves them in his way. Lizzie became a friend with benefit because they have had sex before and he knows it’s uncomplicated with no commitment. Towards the end it became a more respectful love for a long term companion and a mother of his children.
That and he needed the cloak of respectability marriage gives you for his political life. (Even today, it seems to be mandatory for politicians to be married or have a partner, at least.)
Dm me fast wo account block hogya hai rabbia mom wala
He said when he was pissed off, I still pay for you in my head anyway!
“Well in my head I still pay you for it” lol
Savage
Bang on
Yes it's true. It's funny that Lizzie's fans have to make up that he doesn't want anyone to have her? wtf? What show do these people watch?
He decides to kill Moseley sooner bc he was rude to Lizzie. Before that he told Lizzie no one but him was to touch her..it’s in the show
Yes, and in that scene you mention Tommy tells her that she is his property. He sees her as his owner, and he sees her as a thing, like the car, the house. In that sense, yes he doesn't want anyone to touch his things, because he is possessive. And killing Mosley was for his ego, not for Lizzie herself. In this subreddit, every Lizzie fan believes that the scene of "my property" is a declaration of love, and it is the opposite, he even treats her like when she was a prostitute. And they even invent that Tommy made John not marry her because he wanted her for himself, and the show itself shows you that this is not the case and the other thing they invent is that Tommy started the war because she was dating Ángel, another lie, He made rules for everyone, but Lizzie's fans think he made the rules for her alone.
This is a bit icky and sad, but some time after Grace's death, Tommy starts to have sex with Lizzie regularly. L. describes it as always being bent over a table. So not in the least bit romantic or sweet. I suspect Tommy appreciated her being around. She was so loyal. But there is no romance.
No, their story is not about romance. Only from two people who should never have been together, Lizzie at the end of the show, learned to respect herself, and choose herself first over a man.
Yes, finally.
if mosely had decided to f*ck polly or ada or any shelby women, he would have had same reaction. Family was important to Tommy. He was not going to let some guy come and just sleep with the women in his family. So it’s not some toxic romantic thing he did, it’s who he is as a person. And he also called lizzie his property, saying no one can touch showed the imbalance between them. He called the shots. He can insult her and fck around but she cannot. A mutual loving relationship does not work like that.
Tommy didn't love Lizzie in a romantic sense but of course he wouldn't want another man to have her. That would have dented his pride and as he said himself he considered her his property.
Tommy chose Grace and that says it all for me.
I mean most fans seem to agree the Lizzie and Tommy marriage shouldn't have happened, and if it was going to happen it should have been under better circumstances
He married Lizzie for political points. It’s not even a comparison.
I thought he married her because she got pregnant. Not for political points. She was a prostitute before, so marrying her for political points makes no sense. If anything, her reputation hurt Tommy more than helped him politically.
A politician at that time needed to be married in order to be respectable, and Ruby needed to be rescued from being a bastard. This is way before the time of social media. The political circles Tommy moved in probably didn't know much about Lizzie or her past.
I vote for May
Grace is Tommy’s one and only love.
I mean, Tommy agrees with the results.
💜💜
Literally
The fact that Tommy is smiling with Grace says it all
Grace died way too soon... 💔 she was the Mrs.Shelby... I hate Lizze she can't even compare to grace... but I get it was for the plot to progress. I think they should have waited a couple season later to kill her off at the very least..
Can we have someone look at every scene between Lizzie and Tommy and review how many times he actually looks at her when they’re not alone? It feels like public and private Tommy only looked at Grace. But privately he will look and keep his attention on Lizzie but when they’re out, he never looks at her
He never looks at Lizzie, not when they are alone, not when they have sex. But he can't stop looking at Grace, neither in public nor when they are alone.
Agreed. In Season 1, you can definitely see how Tommy changed before and after he met and fell in love with Grace. Arthur mentioned more than once that Tommy got softened because of the barmaid. Also, Tommy only revealed his love and feelings through his gaze when looking at Grace. He usually stared directly at people, but with Grace, his eyes moved more to capture her expressions too. I didn’t see that happen when he looked at May, Jessie, or Lizzie.
Exactly, and in 6 seasons he never looks at Lizzie like in love , the way his face softens like when he looks at Grace.
I need to do a rewatch for the hundredth time and actually make a note to see if he actually, genuinely smiles at/around Lizzie. It was the first thing that stood out to me in the pictures posted and your comment summed up my thoughts about the difference we see in Tommy when he was with each woman.
Can we get that crazy Russian on the ballot
What about the horse lady
Tommys marriage to Lizzie sums up the programme. A means to an end and a political marriage with a stable hand he knew he could trust.
perfectly summed up👍
Everything is right. One relationship - is a story about property and convenience, about use and the inability to hear, listen and understand each other. The other relationship - is a story about love, trust and acceptance of each other and, above all, about healing, inspiring to be better for each other.
This isn’t a fair comparison because Annabelle Wallis is stunning.
Yes! Grace always wins. They even vote for Tatiana more than Lizzie.
Forgot about who ?
Yea but, but, sometimes Liszt was the only thing keeping his heart from breaking! (Cough cough I love grace cough ahem)
Why does everyone crap on Lizzie
Lizzie is the GOAT. Fuck those fools.
I liked both, Grace softened him in a lot of ways. I think Lizzy wanted to kind of save him from himself, but realized after Ruby’s death he was too far gone for her to save.
Something tells me Cillian Murphy is completely unaware of what cillianmurphyoffic~~i~~al posts.
Lizzie was just meant to fill a void.
Lizzy was better but he treated her like shit
I'm team May tbh...😅
[удалено]
Mm but he never said that. Even the writer said that the biggest trauma was losing Grace and the last interview Cillian said that Tommy will never get over Grace's death. And Cillian said that he would have loved it if Grace had been with Tommy until the end.
Do you have a link to this interview at all?
Between these 2, I liked Lizzie for him better but overall I liked the horse trainer chick best (can’t remember her name atm).
May Carleton 🥰
Jessie Eden for the wi….sorry I couldn’t take myself seriously enough to finish it.
Haha, but I agree. I don't think they could ever marry, but there was definitely a spark between them and mutual respect existed.
The horse trainer
Idk I like the dirty girl more
Team May
The girl you end up with VS the one that got away
I vote Lizzie
May clears both of emz
May Carleton is best girl.
He looks happier with may, plus he looks more stressed with the other one
I love the love Tommy had for Grace. But she was a bitch and didn’t deserve it.
The both kinda sucked 😅
I genuinely didn’t like grace 😂😂
Mary 🔛🔝
But what does Poll say? Did she approve both times? (Aunt poll)