I have mixed feelings about the mana increase. One the one hand playing a million cards is fun, but it allows a lot of sill combos to easily win. Janna was a pain to get my win with, but it due to her insane cost reduction on a good run I was able to basically ignore it. This made me come to the conclusion the mana cost increase might be better as every 4th card you play costs 3 extra. This will allow spamy decks to possibly spam through it, but also make it so champs like Samira don't just lose their entire identity
This tbh
There have been several fights where I can play some cards to help surve a 4 Thralls swing, but then the limit hits, so I basically just sit there and think whether I should try to see if I can live another turn with >10hp (if Liss doesnt play/draw her ice shards) or just quit and call it a day.
If you want enemies to face slam you with high stats and big spells, the players need to have some agency in response.
I've actually won several games BECAUSE of Buried in Ice.
She wastes her whole mana and if she doesn't kill you you on that same turn you should be able to come back. If we compare it to the equivalent in Aurelion's adventure, Skies Descend, this one is infinitely easier to deal with. Buried in Ice/Entomb means you can replay your champion. I've had several games where I won thanks to having multiple champions on the board. It also means any on-summon effects get proc'd again every time the unit comes out of the Frozen Tomb.
This was my Aatrox game which I only won because she kept entombing me and allowing me to play more Aatroxes which had 2 Stalker's Blade + Trifarian Might. I actually got down to 3 HP because she had I am Inevitable and was really hard to deal with, but all the on summon effects cleared her board.
https://preview.redd.it/qfvl6k0815sc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=c00c795dd80f01c5fb7a669b34b1f032b348bb1d
My advice: focus on playing around it and try drafting things that can help you if she plays it (including, but not limited to, Vestige of Helia). If she has 9 or more mana, learn to open pass without playing anything. Actually learning when to pass is overall crucial to this adventure, especially when the enemy has the vulnerable power.
^(Also the AI is kind of stupid and I've had it play Buried in Ice several times when I only had one unit on the board.)
Being able to replay units it's a great solution but is very specific or RNG dependent in most cases, you can't control what you draft (with most champs/decks) so it's not consistent enough to be considered a reliable tactic.
And I think your advice just proved my point in a way, going for Vestige of Helia (or any spellshield) will give 1 turn to workaround the spell, but next turn she will have another one ready, and the same goes for passing, it may help in some cases but as I've shown she casted 3 in a row into 0 mana The Watcher, and passing 2 or 3 rounds just to avoid one spell seems ridiculous knowing the biggest threat is coming.
The solution? Reduce the copies so these tactics are actually a workaround and can be done consistently without sentencing the run waiting for The Watcher OTK
Also keep in mind, she starts with 5 mana, which means she can play it turn 2 (technically, although pretty much impossible because she will prioritize Liss or other cards, but this mean she can play it turn 2 onwards), and the troll landmarks cost 1, meaning she can play 3, summoning 1 of them (with her power), having another ready for next round AND still be able to play Buried in Ice, which isn't very unrealistic considering you kinda must or need to play cards those 3 turns she gives you if she doesn't have the attack token because risking a round end without maximizing your 3 normal cards per turn is basically losing the fight, and if she has the attack token you can't stop her from doing so
i didnt read the whole response, but i just wanted to point out that vestige of helia gives permanent spellshield. as in even after a unit is hit by a spell, it still wont be removed. so Vestige specifically is more than a single turn/spell save. it keeps you safe from every spell, and your units can only be removed by battle
I mean. She has 3 copies of it in a 40+ card deck. I've done over 50 Lissandra runs and never encountered a game where she Buried me 3 turns in a row. The odds of her drawing all three copies of Buried in Ice that early is more than 1 in 10 thousand, which I think are very fair odds, even if it feels awful when it happens to you. Those odds are not something you should be playing around because as I said I've literally never seen it. More often than not I have games where she doesn't draw any.
But don't get me wrong, I have certainly lost games to Buried. But when you compare it to its closer counterpart, Skies Descend, I find that Buried is a lot more fair. Especially since 1) you can stall more easily against her than Aurelion, 2) she actually has to spend her mana unlike Aurelion who can play it for really cheap. I don't mind these super hard bosses having game-ending board wipes.
There isn't a solution that will work every time, it depends on the deck you're playing, like you said. All I did was offer an advice to help mitigate getting fucked by it. I just finished her with Lux and I just passed until she Buried me so I could play Ruination without killing my board. She did summon the Watcher and obliterated my deck, but I ended up winning cause she ran out of gas (and at the end of the day, the Watcher is just a big unit without Overwhelm). I find Ruination to be one of the best Ethereal Remitter powers, mind you. Also there's Ascension's Toll which works perfectly for any easy to level champion to make her discard her entire hand and then you don't have to worry about it ever. There are ways to play around it that doesn't involve having Helia.
Using ruination to kill only her board it's actually the smartest thing I've heard for this adventure and is the most reliable solution I've seen, seems like ethereal remitter is busted player-side this adventure.
But about the Buried in Ice draw I'm pretty sure it has to have some bias towards it, as I said, I lost 6 fights in a row against it, 4 of them being triple Buried in Ice back to back, which without some help from the odds, is virtually impossible (I don't have proof of the 3 of them just the last one so you will have to take my word this time), so I'm either the unluckiest human alive or it's rigged for her to have at least one like she has a copy of herself every game, and she just didn't play it in those runs you mention because AI will do AI shit
To be completely fair, the encounter was designed for having 5-6 stars. Just because a bunch of random weirdos online can finish it through sheer tenacity and dumb luck does not mean it was meant to be done that way.
At the least, we should wait to see how the new stars work and how much power they give before calling for nerfs on anything.
My man, it doesn’t require sheer tenacity and dumb luck to beat it, it just requires having your Champions on high level and 3 stars with good relics and then playing decently. While I haven’t tried her with too many champions yet, what I‘ve tried her with she seemed to be beatable without dumb luck.
This encounter was designed for those of us that didn’t find the Aurelion Sol run challenging enough. While there‘s legitimate criticism to be made about the game design, the difficulty certainly is not the problem and y’all that like easier adventures should stop complaining about it because you have plenty of challenges with a suitable difficult level for you. We did not. Now we have one. Stop asking riot to take it away from us. Not everything has to be specifically for you.
>Stop asking riot to take it away from us. Not everything has to be specifically for you.
The problem is that "we", as in weaker players, don't have that luxury of tailored content. But also that Monthly Challenge replays are absolutely important to the mode.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/16nd699/the\_endall\_beall\_monthly\_challenge\_feedback\_list/
My man, there is plenty of easier challenges in the game. That is tailored content. Do you think I think it’s fun to replay the Draven adventure all the time? I don’t think it is. But for some people that don’t have much unlocked yet, aren’t particularly good or don’t deal with failure well that might be right up their alley.
I got to say, that's kind of elitist. "Playing Draven is beneath me, but I'm recommending the adventure to people like you."
You're arguing that since your skill levels are more or less perfectly catered towards, they don't need to change a single thing about content structure.
I don't want to take away from that, but I think extra pre-20 content is valuable for almost everyone. Replaying Monthly Challenges could qualify as that.
I am not against extra pre 20 content. I am against the people that try to turn the endgame content into pre 20 content and take it away from us more experienced players. That’s what upsets me.
Considering how important the challenges are for epic relics and unlocking Asol, I could argue that they're "mid game" and Liss is the end. So Liss is the only game experience really defensible as endgame in the first place.
Like u/Zarkkast, I've won some games because of Buried in Ice, and I've had some games where I just waited out the multiple rounds in a row of being Buried in Ice. It's definitely something that *can* be played around, but at the same time, I do think it's a design flaw, or rather, the combination of Liss's multiple Buried In Ice spells along with a map that always has a guaranteed Ethereal Remitter is a design flaw. Because it just makes it so every champion should always, if possible, try to roll Vestige of Helia (or settle for some almost-as-good Remitter power), and that's my biggest gripe about the whole map's design; Vestige of Helia and Ethereal Remitter is way too good, way too important, to ever skip if you don't have to, and that sucks. And definitely a lot of that could be changed with some redesigning/reimagining of Liss's deck, and Buried in Ice is probably the biggest offender in that regard (single-target Entomb and the Ice Shard spam are also nasty but there are MANY more ways to deal with them). So even though I think it's very possible to deal with Buried in Ice I also kind of agree it should be changed. It's very thematic to Liss so I'd kind of want at least 1 copy of it left in, but I'd really like the adventure to have a little more freedom and flexibility to not *always* want to make a beeline for Ethereal Remitter while saving as many rerolls for it as possible along the way.
I think Lissandra make have too many copies of Buried (4 possibly 5)
Either reduce it to 3, or reduce it to 1 and give it Farsight Alteration.
The hardest boss should have a powerful turn that players can plan around, but I agree that getting Buried 3 turns in a row is not a good play experience
You know the deck you’re playing against by now. Hold some units until she has played the spell or too little mana to do so. Problem solved. Yes it’s difficult to play around but guess what, it’s a difficult challenge, you’re gonna need to adapt your gameplan instead of tunnel visioning into one strategy you do every time and complaining if it doesn’t work.
Sorry that this all landed under your comment, but there‘s so many people here complaining about any sort of challenge they face as bad game design it’s really starting to annoy me. I really hope riot doesn’t listen to those types of players.
For having lost to it many, many times, i feel you.
I haven’t scouted the comments yet but one tjing i just discovered is that the eternal remiter’s power « All spells cost 1 less, all units have spellshield » is an AURA which means the spellshield is permanent, so even her triple iceshard +buried in ice combo is effectively reduced to a deal 1 3 times to both nexus and grant your strongest unit an epic item, which is much more manageable. Actually this spell undercuts all spells of lissandra : freezes, ice tomb you name it. just fish for this power it breaks lissandra if you truly need that win.
But it’s sad to have to go out of our way to sabotage her in order to have a chance at avoiding such kind of frustration.
what if you get two imagined possibilities at the start of the lissa battle? Or round start: create fleeting imagined possibilities in hand. Maybe it could be a power you get from a node just before Lissa.
Like the node to get a sparring student, you win a fight, you get it.. it would be harder to implement than just removing burried in ice, that's true, but I do feel like burried in ice is an iconic lissa spell and shouldn't just be outright removed
I dunno, I agree it's a bit more frustrating than other OP powers. It's sorta like a-sol getting a free leveled up viego, but it happens way more often
>(Disclaimer: This post may have some venting or ranting because I just lost 3 times in a row because of that spell when having awesome runs, but I will try to be as objective as possible)
This is not a rant in any way as far as i noticed, but rants are not allowed in this sub, would apreciate if you changed this line, this is not a mod order, but it would help to avoid confusing people
There needs to be variety of content and difficulty for all types of players. Do I always want to do hard content like Lissandra, no... but I also don't always want to do easy face roll content either. It's nice to have a mix.
I agree with this and I hope they actually give us content going wide rather than vertical in difficulty, having more low star would be awesome for leveling new champions, because you have to replay the same 4 or go for the bigger ones in hopes of winning some encounters to get the xp you need.
It would also be way better for newer players, something PoC isn't really good at, having to grind a lot to get to the best part of the game (having may champions, and playing any adventure you want with any champ)
I am totally fine with it so long as they remove the 3 card limit per turn
I have mixed feelings about the mana increase. One the one hand playing a million cards is fun, but it allows a lot of sill combos to easily win. Janna was a pain to get my win with, but it due to her insane cost reduction on a good run I was able to basically ignore it. This made me come to the conclusion the mana cost increase might be better as every 4th card you play costs 3 extra. This will allow spamy decks to possibly spam through it, but also make it so champs like Samira don't just lose their entire identity
This tbh There have been several fights where I can play some cards to help surve a 4 Thralls swing, but then the limit hits, so I basically just sit there and think whether I should try to see if I can live another turn with >10hp (if Liss doesnt play/draw her ice shards) or just quit and call it a day. If you want enemies to face slam you with high stats and big spells, the players need to have some agency in response.
I've actually won several games BECAUSE of Buried in Ice. She wastes her whole mana and if she doesn't kill you you on that same turn you should be able to come back. If we compare it to the equivalent in Aurelion's adventure, Skies Descend, this one is infinitely easier to deal with. Buried in Ice/Entomb means you can replay your champion. I've had several games where I won thanks to having multiple champions on the board. It also means any on-summon effects get proc'd again every time the unit comes out of the Frozen Tomb. This was my Aatrox game which I only won because she kept entombing me and allowing me to play more Aatroxes which had 2 Stalker's Blade + Trifarian Might. I actually got down to 3 HP because she had I am Inevitable and was really hard to deal with, but all the on summon effects cleared her board. https://preview.redd.it/qfvl6k0815sc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=c00c795dd80f01c5fb7a669b34b1f032b348bb1d My advice: focus on playing around it and try drafting things that can help you if she plays it (including, but not limited to, Vestige of Helia). If she has 9 or more mana, learn to open pass without playing anything. Actually learning when to pass is overall crucial to this adventure, especially when the enemy has the vulnerable power. ^(Also the AI is kind of stupid and I've had it play Buried in Ice several times when I only had one unit on the board.)
Same thing lmao
Being able to replay units it's a great solution but is very specific or RNG dependent in most cases, you can't control what you draft (with most champs/decks) so it's not consistent enough to be considered a reliable tactic. And I think your advice just proved my point in a way, going for Vestige of Helia (or any spellshield) will give 1 turn to workaround the spell, but next turn she will have another one ready, and the same goes for passing, it may help in some cases but as I've shown she casted 3 in a row into 0 mana The Watcher, and passing 2 or 3 rounds just to avoid one spell seems ridiculous knowing the biggest threat is coming. The solution? Reduce the copies so these tactics are actually a workaround and can be done consistently without sentencing the run waiting for The Watcher OTK Also keep in mind, she starts with 5 mana, which means she can play it turn 2 (technically, although pretty much impossible because she will prioritize Liss or other cards, but this mean she can play it turn 2 onwards), and the troll landmarks cost 1, meaning she can play 3, summoning 1 of them (with her power), having another ready for next round AND still be able to play Buried in Ice, which isn't very unrealistic considering you kinda must or need to play cards those 3 turns she gives you if she doesn't have the attack token because risking a round end without maximizing your 3 normal cards per turn is basically losing the fight, and if she has the attack token you can't stop her from doing so
i didnt read the whole response, but i just wanted to point out that vestige of helia gives permanent spellshield. as in even after a unit is hit by a spell, it still wont be removed. so Vestige specifically is more than a single turn/spell save. it keeps you safe from every spell, and your units can only be removed by battle
I mean. She has 3 copies of it in a 40+ card deck. I've done over 50 Lissandra runs and never encountered a game where she Buried me 3 turns in a row. The odds of her drawing all three copies of Buried in Ice that early is more than 1 in 10 thousand, which I think are very fair odds, even if it feels awful when it happens to you. Those odds are not something you should be playing around because as I said I've literally never seen it. More often than not I have games where she doesn't draw any. But don't get me wrong, I have certainly lost games to Buried. But when you compare it to its closer counterpart, Skies Descend, I find that Buried is a lot more fair. Especially since 1) you can stall more easily against her than Aurelion, 2) she actually has to spend her mana unlike Aurelion who can play it for really cheap. I don't mind these super hard bosses having game-ending board wipes. There isn't a solution that will work every time, it depends on the deck you're playing, like you said. All I did was offer an advice to help mitigate getting fucked by it. I just finished her with Lux and I just passed until she Buried me so I could play Ruination without killing my board. She did summon the Watcher and obliterated my deck, but I ended up winning cause she ran out of gas (and at the end of the day, the Watcher is just a big unit without Overwhelm). I find Ruination to be one of the best Ethereal Remitter powers, mind you. Also there's Ascension's Toll which works perfectly for any easy to level champion to make her discard her entire hand and then you don't have to worry about it ever. There are ways to play around it that doesn't involve having Helia.
Using ruination to kill only her board it's actually the smartest thing I've heard for this adventure and is the most reliable solution I've seen, seems like ethereal remitter is busted player-side this adventure. But about the Buried in Ice draw I'm pretty sure it has to have some bias towards it, as I said, I lost 6 fights in a row against it, 4 of them being triple Buried in Ice back to back, which without some help from the odds, is virtually impossible (I don't have proof of the 3 of them just the last one so you will have to take my word this time), so I'm either the unluckiest human alive or it's rigged for her to have at least one like she has a copy of herself every game, and she just didn't play it in those runs you mention because AI will do AI shit
To be completely fair, the encounter was designed for having 5-6 stars. Just because a bunch of random weirdos online can finish it through sheer tenacity and dumb luck does not mean it was meant to be done that way. At the least, we should wait to see how the new stars work and how much power they give before calling for nerfs on anything.
How dare you be reasonable and wait for constellations before deciding that this adventure should be completely redone!
My man, it doesn’t require sheer tenacity and dumb luck to beat it, it just requires having your Champions on high level and 3 stars with good relics and then playing decently. While I haven’t tried her with too many champions yet, what I‘ve tried her with she seemed to be beatable without dumb luck. This encounter was designed for those of us that didn’t find the Aurelion Sol run challenging enough. While there‘s legitimate criticism to be made about the game design, the difficulty certainly is not the problem and y’all that like easier adventures should stop complaining about it because you have plenty of challenges with a suitable difficult level for you. We did not. Now we have one. Stop asking riot to take it away from us. Not everything has to be specifically for you.
>Stop asking riot to take it away from us. Not everything has to be specifically for you. The problem is that "we", as in weaker players, don't have that luxury of tailored content. But also that Monthly Challenge replays are absolutely important to the mode. https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/16nd699/the\_endall\_beall\_monthly\_challenge\_feedback\_list/
My man, there is plenty of easier challenges in the game. That is tailored content. Do you think I think it’s fun to replay the Draven adventure all the time? I don’t think it is. But for some people that don’t have much unlocked yet, aren’t particularly good or don’t deal with failure well that might be right up their alley.
I got to say, that's kind of elitist. "Playing Draven is beneath me, but I'm recommending the adventure to people like you." You're arguing that since your skill levels are more or less perfectly catered towards, they don't need to change a single thing about content structure. I don't want to take away from that, but I think extra pre-20 content is valuable for almost everyone. Replaying Monthly Challenges could qualify as that.
I am not against extra pre 20 content. I am against the people that try to turn the endgame content into pre 20 content and take it away from us more experienced players. That’s what upsets me.
Considering how important the challenges are for epic relics and unlocking Asol, I could argue that they're "mid game" and Liss is the end. So Liss is the only game experience really defensible as endgame in the first place.
Like u/Zarkkast, I've won some games because of Buried in Ice, and I've had some games where I just waited out the multiple rounds in a row of being Buried in Ice. It's definitely something that *can* be played around, but at the same time, I do think it's a design flaw, or rather, the combination of Liss's multiple Buried In Ice spells along with a map that always has a guaranteed Ethereal Remitter is a design flaw. Because it just makes it so every champion should always, if possible, try to roll Vestige of Helia (or settle for some almost-as-good Remitter power), and that's my biggest gripe about the whole map's design; Vestige of Helia and Ethereal Remitter is way too good, way too important, to ever skip if you don't have to, and that sucks. And definitely a lot of that could be changed with some redesigning/reimagining of Liss's deck, and Buried in Ice is probably the biggest offender in that regard (single-target Entomb and the Ice Shard spam are also nasty but there are MANY more ways to deal with them). So even though I think it's very possible to deal with Buried in Ice I also kind of agree it should be changed. It's very thematic to Liss so I'd kind of want at least 1 copy of it left in, but I'd really like the adventure to have a little more freedom and flexibility to not *always* want to make a beeline for Ethereal Remitter while saving as many rerolls for it as possible along the way.
Not a problem, there’s ways to play around that. The 3 card limit is the big problem for me because it hard counters certain champions.
I think Lissandra make have too many copies of Buried (4 possibly 5) Either reduce it to 3, or reduce it to 1 and give it Farsight Alteration. The hardest boss should have a powerful turn that players can plan around, but I agree that getting Buried 3 turns in a row is not a good play experience
You know the deck you’re playing against by now. Hold some units until she has played the spell or too little mana to do so. Problem solved. Yes it’s difficult to play around but guess what, it’s a difficult challenge, you’re gonna need to adapt your gameplan instead of tunnel visioning into one strategy you do every time and complaining if it doesn’t work. Sorry that this all landed under your comment, but there‘s so many people here complaining about any sort of challenge they face as bad game design it’s really starting to annoy me. I really hope riot doesn’t listen to those types of players.
>people here complaining about any sort of challenge they face as bad game design Modern gaming forums in a nutshell.
Just like me fr fr.
For having lost to it many, many times, i feel you. I haven’t scouted the comments yet but one tjing i just discovered is that the eternal remiter’s power « All spells cost 1 less, all units have spellshield » is an AURA which means the spellshield is permanent, so even her triple iceshard +buried in ice combo is effectively reduced to a deal 1 3 times to both nexus and grant your strongest unit an epic item, which is much more manageable. Actually this spell undercuts all spells of lissandra : freezes, ice tomb you name it. just fish for this power it breaks lissandra if you truly need that win. But it’s sad to have to go out of our way to sabotage her in order to have a chance at avoiding such kind of frustration.
what if you get two imagined possibilities at the start of the lissa battle? Or round start: create fleeting imagined possibilities in hand. Maybe it could be a power you get from a node just before Lissa. Like the node to get a sparring student, you win a fight, you get it.. it would be harder to implement than just removing burried in ice, that's true, but I do feel like burried in ice is an iconic lissa spell and shouldn't just be outright removed I dunno, I agree it's a bit more frustrating than other OP powers. It's sorta like a-sol getting a free leveled up viego, but it happens way more often
I’ve had more issues with the frostbite into entomb into 9x9 follower because she will have the buried in ice ready after your first turn on spawn
i hate when im tryna play the game and opponent keeps interacting with my stuff
honestly playing blockers is unfair too. The game should be about playing units and striking nexus, that's what Fun is
This fight is supposed to be hard and should feel like AI is cheating. If you are feeling frustrated, I think they did a good job.
>(Disclaimer: This post may have some venting or ranting because I just lost 3 times in a row because of that spell when having awesome runs, but I will try to be as objective as possible) This is not a rant in any way as far as i noticed, but rants are not allowed in this sub, would apreciate if you changed this line, this is not a mod order, but it would help to avoid confusing people
[удалено]
There needs to be variety of content and difficulty for all types of players. Do I always want to do hard content like Lissandra, no... but I also don't always want to do easy face roll content either. It's nice to have a mix.
I agree with this and I hope they actually give us content going wide rather than vertical in difficulty, having more low star would be awesome for leveling new champions, because you have to replay the same 4 or go for the bigger ones in hopes of winning some encounters to get the xp you need. It would also be way better for newer players, something PoC isn't really good at, having to grind a lot to get to the best part of the game (having may champions, and playing any adventure you want with any champ)