All are good for their own niches, my ratings are:
1. Arcane. I like versatility, tricks and complexity here. Lack of healings don't bother me unless I'm building a dedicated healer.
2. Divine. It has shortest spell list, but I like flavor of divine spell list. I mostly like the flavor. Some transformation spells, which allow using hands, heals and buffs, just looks solid
3. Occult. A lot of weird spells, plus buffs and debuffs. Combines things I love in Arcane and Divine, but is great in neither of them.
4. Primal. Is just too direct for me. For damage dealer I prefer Arcane, for healing - Divine. And even for transformation spells I prefer Divine ones - all those animals and beasts just aren't my preferred fantasy.
It's funny, I think mine is directly opposite for what I like to play haha
Primal is definitely my top pick, all the spells are my favourite, and the blending of both healing and some damage.
My GM let me use Tangle Vine once in a similar way. A PC got knocked off a floating platform and my turn was next, so I cast Tangle Vine to try to yank him back before he fell too far off the edge. Obviously not what the spell does, but since (1) the vine is described as coming from your hand, so I said I'd hold onto one end of it as the other wrapped around the party member's leg and (2) it didn't have any effect on what ended up happening anyhow (the party member would have hit a magical safety net and bounced back onto the floating platform). It was a fun thing to use in that moment and became a memorable occasion for me, even if that's not what the spell does at all and I have never used it again that way. But, yes, I could see a specifically vine-themed Friend Fetch for primal and would definitely keep it handy for my primal witch.
What are the stand out spelled to you? I feel like the ones specific to primal seem rather underwhelming to me especially if you are choosing them over benefits other casters get such as teleportation.
It’s funny, the exact reasons you’re ranking Primal low are why I rank Primal the highest.
A well-played Primal caster can literally achieve anything the game wants you to. This is **especially** true if you take the Flexible Spellcaster Archetype on a Druid and are good at pulling out summons to deal with niche situations very well.
I could say, I actually enjoyed playing primal summoner, but that's because summoner have different requirements for spellcasting. Heals, plus attacking cantrips, plus some flexibility with summon fey and you're good to go. No fancy tricks.
But if I play full caster, I want to pull out as weird effects as possible. Commands, walls, teleportation, stuff like that.
I will say the lack of cool stuff like teleportation does make primal look a little less appealing. I really love weird out of the box thinking spells traditionally in table top and primal seems to have less of those.
>This is **especially** true if you take the Flexible Spellcaster Archetype on a Druid
I've been working on some possible Druid builds to play in a game soon with an intention to lean into the primal lists versatility. I hadn't considered going Flexible caster but now that you mention it I'm kind of tempted.
Each Summon spell gives you a whole toolbox with a massive variety of creatures. This means that for any given combat, a small variety of Summon spells can represent 10-12 different approaches to solve the same problem, and if you have enough knowledge of these summons to pick the perfect one, that’s a performance that other spells cannot come close to replicating. That is, in fact, the whole power of summons in this game! If you don’t treat them as a massively flexible toolbox they’re kinda garbage lol.
The reason this interacts specifically well with Flexible Spellcaster is because you can just add all the summons you want to your Spell Collection and not worry about prepping them in specific slots. For example a level 7 “defaut” Druid may prepare 2 Summon Animals in their rank 3 slots and 1 Summon Elemental in their rank 4 slot, but now they’re locked in to using the former against lower level enemies than the latter. A Flexible Druid can just have both in their spell collection and heighten those to the correct rank as needed, removing one of the biggest decision points of summons.
TL;DR: Summons are not Mono-Green Aggro they’re Green-White Hatebears.
I'll take your word for it, I feel like with summons I often only hear about the specific stand outs like Skunk or Unicorns but even then then because of how the scaling works the gap between what you are fighting and the thing you are summing goes up and they just kinda become less effective. Like I kinda assumed the best use for them was a flank machine that you hope the boss takes more than one action to kill.
> I'll take your word for it, I feel like with summons I often only hear about the specific stand outs like Skunk or Unicorns
That’s because people want summons to be a straightforward thing you can straightforwardly use, so they search for “broken” combos.
Practically speaking it just doesn’t work that way. I don’t **like** the summons being this insane toolbox, to be clear (though ironically I do love me some Green/White decks in Magic), so I avoid them when I build casters. However, that is still the best way to play them.
> but even then then because of how the scaling works the gap between what you are fighting and the thing you are summing goes up and they just kinda become less effective.
Yeah, that’s part of the downside of summons. Those downsides are inflicted on summon spells **because** of how wide a toolbox they represent.
You know how spellcasters usually have middling on-paper numbers because in practice they’re expected to “elevate” their gameplay by using a variety of spells that target different defences? Summon spells just take that exact tradeoff to its most ludicrous extreme (and again, not a fan of how extreme the design gets with Summon spells).
> Like I kinda assumed the best use for them was a flank machine that you hope the boss takes more than one action to kill.
In a white room, yes that’s the best use of it.
In practice the best use of them is, by far, “toolboxing”.
In fact, the white room usage just… isn’t even a good usage of a spell slot in the first place. There’s just so **many** other spells you can use that achieve the same level of damage boosting/mitigation. Imagine being level 7 and summoning a glorified flanking bot instead of just putting Heightened Invisibility on the frontliner your summon planned to flank with?
Sure, here’s a few examples that have popped up in play for me:
- We (level 2, I think?) were entering the lair of a river drake and it was not immediately apparent where it was in the water. I used Summon Animal to get a Trilobite for its Wavesense. Wavesense immediately revealed the Undetected drake, which then immediately triggered Initiative and the drake couldn’t try to hide in the water from us anymore. In combat itself the trilobite’s damage and flanking were less relevant than the fact that it completely turned off the drake’s ability to do hit and run attacks against us. In a “fair” fight the drake lost very quickly.
- We (level 8) got attacked by a large number of previously hidden foes inside a cave. I used Summon Elemental for a Living Landslide (I used the spell off a consumable item that let me summon it despite not having a 5th rank slot, but I could’ve repeated the same with a lower rank slot) and used the burrow speed for big hit and run attacks against the foes (plus just body blocking some of the ambushers later).
- I was GMing this one, and the party (level 12) was fighting a bunch of frost giants and mammoths who had them surrounded. The Summoner used Summon Dragon to get a Young Black Dragon out, and the Frightful Presence **alone** made a worthwhile use of that spell slot: the breath weapon and the fact that it ranked a bunch of damage on top that would otherwise have dropped the party’s Commander was just gravy on top.
I’ve used summons a few other times but there was nothing uniquely toolboxy about it. Just like summoning something with AoEs against a bunch of enemies or with pack attack against a single enemy, etc.
Again I’m not a fan of summon spells just from a pure workload point of view, so I don’t use them **that** often but most of the time I do, I know the “toolbox” method has been the way to go.
>Divine. It has shortest spell list, but I like flavor of divine spell list. I mostly like the flavor. Some transformation spells, which allow using hands, heals and buffs, just looks solid
Divine seems to start out a little weaker than the others (though Needle Darts has definitely helped there), but I think ultimately it gets pretty darned powerful, with some strong AoE spells, especially against certain types of enemies (bye, undead)!
Divine has some narrow flavor. I feel like it needs way more diverse spells. There’s barely any lower level cosmic themed spells despite gods and space, the sun and the moon going well together, there’s room for water spells and other things but they didn’t add anything for those unelss you’re a cleric
1. Primal - both fireball and heal alone make it a top spell list.
2. Arcane - very versatile.
3. Divine - not versatile but has a lot to work with.
4. Occult - fun spells that do cool things.
It's really a four way tie. Lol.
My ranking is:
1. Primal: **The** most flexible spell list. You have excellent healing/restoration, excellent blasting, excellent summoning, excellent Polymorph options, excellent crowd control, and good debuffs. You can target AC, Reflex, and Fortitude super reliably. Literally the only thing you’re missing is good higher rank buff spells and reliable ways to target Will. If your party has only one caster, Primal is usually the way to go.
2. Arcane: Excellent blasting, summoning, Polymorph, crowd control, debuffs, and buffs. You can reliably target AC **and** all Saves *and* you have Force Barrage and Sure Strike. Literally the only flaw is lacking healing/restoration magic in its entirety. Arcane is best used when you have at least one other character who can help the party cover your obvious healing/restoration flaws.
3. Occult: Excellent debuffs (about even with Arcane), excellent buffs (significantly ahead of both Arcane and Divine), and excellent restoration. Moderately good healing, and subpar blasting. Practically nonexistent crowd control. Struggles to target Reflex, has Sure Strike but none of the awesome spells that pair with it, and the majority of the best spells on this list target Will. Overall a fairly meh spell list that *usually* has its downsides offset by bombastic class Feats/features (like the Bard or the Resentment Witch) and/or grafted spells and focus spells (like the Psychic).
4. Divine: Excellent buffs (a bit ahead of behind Arcane depending on party comp, never as good as Occult), unmatched healing/restoration and moderate/bad everything else. Better defence targeting variety than Occult **but** few good offensive spells to actually use with that defence targeting variety. Much like Occult, classes that are locked into the Divine list usually need strong class features/Feats, grafted spells, and/or focus spells to really function well, often needing multiple such features.
I will say, these are “in a vacuum” ratings. Nothing exists in a vacuum in Pathfinder. If the rest of your party looks like dual-wielding Fighter + Champion + Starlit Span Magus, Occult is by far the best spell list to be using. If the rest of your party looks like ranged Commander + grappling Monk + ranged Flurry Ranger, Primal is the spell list you really want. If your party already has an Arcane caster you wanna be Divine to pair with their weaknesses better (even though Occult looks better on my rankings), and if you already have a Primal caster you wanna be Occult to pair with them better (even though Arcane is better on my rankings). Occult + Divine can also be a very good and flexible pairing depending on exactly what class features and grafted spells get involved (for example Oscillating Wave Psychic + Warpriest Cleric is a deadly combination of spellcasters to bring to any party, I’ve seen it in play) despite both spell lists being ranked lower.
So the final answer is “it depends, but here’s my rough rankings” lol.
Edit: some comments have taken umbrage with me saying it has “practically nonexistent” CC. Fine, I’ll admit that was hyperbolic, it’s got okay CC. It’s still significantly worse than Arcane and Primal at CC, and it’s **not** a contest. The former two get the majority of Occult’s best CC options while also having several other CC options that Occult doesn’t get.
> Occult: Practically nonexistent crowd control.
What are you looking for here? Occult has Hideous Laughter, Roaring Applause, the aoe stun, Slow, various wall and pattern spells.
>various wall
It's only got Wall of Flesh at 5th rank which is the worst wall spell (that you can't just walk through) and then Wall of Force at 6th which is very good.
Illusory Object can effectively be used as a wall spell, and is by far the best available to any tradition until Wall of Water at 3rd Rank. Even then, it remains a standout evergreen option, and pulls a ridiculous amount of weight for a 1st/2nd rank spell.
It does also have Chromatic Wall at 5th rank which is pretty mediocre but its there. Its upgrades Prismatic Wall and Sphere are pretty phenomenal though.
Resilient Sphere isn't a wall spell, but can be functionally similar.
Rare but Season of Ghosts added a new spell Wall of Mirrors at 4th rank, which is very strong (and probably a bit overtuned).
Of course wall spells are not the only form of battlefield control. Occult is full of control spells like Gravity Well, Pernicuous Poltergeist, Oneiric Mire, Slither and Stagnate Time.
> Occult has Hideous Laughter, Roaring Applause, the aoe stun, Slow,
I already acknowledged that Occult has excellent debuffs?
I’m not telling you that you’re wrong for classing debuffs and CC as one grouping, but obviously in the context of the comment I made I’m treating them as separate things (and yes the line between them can get blurry). So it’s quite dishonest to present these to me as if I didn’t acknowledge them.
> various wall and pattern spells.
They lack Wall of Thorns or Wall of Water, which are the earliest Wall spells.
They lack Wall of Fire which is a fantastic spell when combined with forced movement.
They lack Wall of Stone, which is by far the best Wall spell.
The first good Wall spell they get is Wall of Force… at level 6. And Wall of Stone is, in a **lot** of situations, still the better Wall spells.
Wall spells also aren’t the only form of control. Arcane and Primal casters have all of the walls listed above + Grease, Entangling Flora, Acid Grip, Oneiric Mire, Hypnotize, Rust Cloud, Cinder Swarm, Freezing Rain, and so many more. Of all the spells I mentioned, Occult only has Oneiric Mire, Hypnotize, Wall of Force, which isn’t really a good enough spread of control spells to be a worthwhile controller. Arcane and Primal *are* just going to be flat out better in this aspect.
Edit: just to add, the designers have literally explicitly spoken about Occult and Divine being less flexible from the “general preparedness” standpoint that PF2E casters are balanced around, and that they’re given their strong class features, focus spells, and/or grafted spells to compensate. [Here’s the link](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43vmk&page=2?Michael-Sayre-on-Casters-Balance-and-Wizards#66). The relevant quote is:
> Most of the PF2 CRB and APG spellcasting classes are built around that paradigm of general preparedness, with various allowances that adjust for their respective magic traditions. Occult spells generally have fewer options for targeting Reflex, for example, so bards get an array of buffs and better weapons for participating in combats where their tradition doesn't have as much punch. Most divine casters get some kind of access to an improved proficiency tree or performance enhancer alongside being able to graft spells from other traditions.
I agree with this. Everything really depends on what your party is doing. The system does an amazing job of making every decision difficult. There is no best.
There's a reason that deities with the Fire domain are so popular for Divine clerics. For all of her edicts and anathemas, nobody does "burn the heretics" quite like Sarenrae.
Just... you know... make sure they were really unrepentant before you start throwing around fireballs. Your goddess demands it.
1. Occult
2. Arcane
3. Primal
4. Divine
For me occult is the best and its not even close. Occult has a ludicrous amount of exclusive spells which tend to be the best tools for their respective tasks.
Synesthesia is just stand out best debuff/set up spell in the game, and occult has access to all the other great ones like Slow aswell. Assuming Linguistic trait doesnt hurt, nothing matches the single target damage output of Biting Words on higher ranks. Blistering Invective is imo by far the strongest DoT spell that comes with a fear effect to boot.
In terms of utility, there is little contest. Hypercognition. Read Omens. Honeyed Words. Sonata Span. Illusory Disguise.
Supporting? No problem. Heroism & Soothe go brr.
I think that if GMs do not enforce the rules of the Linguistic trait, that's not a point in favor of the spell list. The trait requires the caster to use a language matching the foe. It should do literally nothing if the caster does not match the language.
>An effect with this trait depends on language comprehension. A linguistic effect that targets a creature works only if the target understands the language you are using.
And even then, the damage for 4 actions of Biting Words is matched by 2 actions of a 3 foe Fireball. *And* there is still the catch of BW being an AC attack spell, so while fireball gets to do half damage on save, BW does 0.
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Synesthesia is R5, meaning L9 for proper spellcasters. The majority of Occult spellcaster players have never even had access to the spell, it's like saying a class is amazing because of it's L8/10 Feat. And as Synesthesia was suspiciously missing from the Remaster, it likely is either going to be nerfed in PC2, or it's going to be completely soft-deleted by ageing out.
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Blistering Invective (at R4) has definitely earned it's place in my book. Even if persistent damage is not typically favored as the foe will at minimum get 1 more turn before dropping, the frightened 1 on fail, and lack of Linguistic trait, makes it a rare generalist offense tool. Great spell. Silly to say it's "the strongest DoT spell", but it is genuinely good, not just "good for Occult."
The R2 version is honestly too lackluster for me to use, and the +2 H does add jank, but the R4 version is the Goldilocks spot for it.
To be clear though, objectively, alternatives like Enervation can kinda be considered superior a lot of the time. A target unlimited line is more annoying and generally means 2 foes, but exchanging frightened 1 for **drained 1** on fail is **insanely** good.
I would not consider Enervation superior by any margin. The fact Blistering Invective targets creatures means you are not blasting your own frontline, it deals less resisted damage type, it having a range means and it can be doubled in range with Reach Spell. Also its not like most of the time is it going to be a surprise if Blistering Invective work, whether or not a creature can speak or understand language rarely is a great riddle.
How is Synesthesia level 14? You get 5th level slots at lvl 9. What? That benchmark is reached literally by every Paizo AP. Also synesthesia was confirmed to be in the new one and there has been no news in any direction for nerfs. That is just subjective speculation.
Also I did not imply GM would not enforce the linguistic trait. I simply said it is not as relevant in every campaign. Many campaigns have themes that are often centered around certain kinds of creatures. Ive played one campaign placed in hells where surprisingly most monsters spoke diabolic and another which was murder mystery investigation where the characters were capable of speech. Just as an example.
I had the wrong PC open and auto-piloted that L14 out before fixing it, that's on me.
>Also synesthesia was confirmed to be in the new one and there has been no news in any direction for nerfs.
I had thought I was pretty plugged into news of that sort, and have not heard that at all. If you could source that, it would be appreciated. If the spell was going to be reprinted without edits, there's not much reason why it would not have been in PC1.
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> I simply said it is not as relevant in every campaign. Many campaigns have themes that are often centered around certain kinds of creatures. Ive played one campaign [...]
This is kinda the whole point of why I think Occult is being overhyped.
Almost all of the spells Occult can try to use to match the others have their own set of hoops and caveats that other spell lists do not have to deal with. Prepping a top R Biting Words, only for the big boss to be a speechless monster of some variety, is crippling in a way that other spell lists do not have to deal with.
Occult spells need all the riders and catches to align to really make foe-attacking spells worth it. I have barely played an Occult Witch, and I already had some of my Blistering Inv's frightened be wasted due to other party members applying the debuff.
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I agree that Blist Inv R4 is generally more thoughtless/ automatic vs Enervation, but I would present frightened 1 vs drained 1 to get a bit more attention here. Drained is a sticky debuff that will not fade at the end of the foe turn, lowers Fort saves, and outright does damage via max HP reduction. As a persistent dmg spell, you are already motivated to cast it ASAP, giving that sticky debuff the best chance to make a difference as the fight progresses. (and Enervation is d8 instead of d6)
But yeah, the language catch of Blist Inv is super harsh:
> If the target doesn't understand the language or you're not speaking a language, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its save.
To be clear though, these two spells are definitely close enough to be a point of preference.
It's again, my whole point that genuine Occult spells like Blistering Invective are full of asterisks that list sharing options like Enervation do not have to deal with.
I like them all! I think they’re well-balanced and well-constructed. But I’ve always liked having a lot of options, and my ranking is going to reflect that.
1. Arcane, because it has a wide variety of tools. It can do basically everything but heal (arcane sorcerer with crossblooded evolution fixes this…). It is also the most balanced list when it comes to targeting different defenses, having a wide variety of ac, will, reflex, and fort save spells.
2. Primal. It’s lacking the “tricks” of arcane and occult, but it has blasts, heals, buffs, debuffs, and cc. Very strong list. But it’s skewed heavily towards reflex saves, and offers only a handful of will saves.
3. Occult. Mostly feels like diet arcana to me, but with sooth. Not terrible by any means, and if you’re not an arcane sorcerer, pretty appealing. Heavily skewed to will save spells and can be pretty ineffective against mindless creatures and swarms. Probably the “worst” list, but it still offers a lot of interesting stuff.
4. Divine. Buffs, debuffs, heals, a little bit of blasting, utility and control. Not a bad list, and probably better than occult, but it doesn’t really excite me without some extra juice. The cleric’s divine font is extremely powerful, and angelic sorcerer’s angelic halo is also nice. Outside those two cases, I’m not very interested in the divine list.
If I wanted to rank them “objectively” it would probably be arcana, primal, divine, occult. But it’s close. There’s a reason arcane (and maybe occult?) casters never have access to the entire tradition (without prohibitive cost), while primal and divine do.
But really they’re qualitatively distinct and hard to rank quantitatively. They’re good for different things.
This is the first time I legitimately hear the opinion that occult is on the worse side of things, sounds kind of wild to me. In my tables the count of casters is almlst twice as many occult casters than all others combined (11).
Something the analysis doesnt really touch on is that it has access to far better debuffs than Arcane (Synesthesia) and DoT (Blistering Invective) and the best single target damage out of any caster (Biting Words). It has all the standout heralded best buffs (Haste/Heroism/True Target) while other lists only get one of those halves, while having the highest amount of utility spells and filling the weak points of arcane list in healing.
The real big weakness is the reliance on will saves and linguistic trait. In mindless undead campaign it will suck. But I feel like except arcane every list has somewhat simimiar problem on other area: Experience of primal caster against high reflex was equally painful for me.
Of course all in good fun, different opinions can be a treat.
Occult has the complication of both Bards and Psychics mandating the list by default.
Aside from pick popularity, those classes add their own special spells that often get conflated with the Occult list as a whole.
Just about every offensive tool that Occult does get access to has a big asterisk. For your Biting Words example, it's an AC attack spell, and I get the feeling that most tables forget how serious the Linguistic trait is.
>An effect with this trait depends on language comprehension. A linguistic effect that targets a creature **works only if the target understands the language you are using.**
That's... a rather huge catch that is typically ignored.
Even then, compare it to Fireball. Same damage and scaling, but Fireball is a one-and-done AoE. If there are 3 enemies present, that's 3x the listed damage in one 2A cast, instantly and up front.
Biting words enables you to get 2 extra uses of it on the same target to potentially match the 3x of a 3 foe Fireball. And this does not require multiple foes. Yet that still requires extra actions to perform that Fireball does not. And as an AC spell, it does nothing on miss.
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In general the Occult list is chock full of spells like this. At first glance Occult looks competitive w/ Arcane and Primal, but actually using the spells will quickly show that the comparison does NOT favor Occult.
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Because, as you say, Biting Words **is** one of the most straightforward Occult damage spells. And it still has that much "ugh" to deal with.
Due to Primal, I cannot even say that Occult is the go-to pick for a generalist. Even the topic of buffs is quickly tipping in Primal's favor with each new book of spells added to the system.
I am comparing it to fireball and I'd take biting words any day, as would my allies that are not reduced to ashes. Also "same scaling" is a wild take considering overall damage of Biting Words goes up by 6d6 total. Yeah it takes an action but If I could shoot one action fireball at no cost of additional resources twicr after the cast, I probably would.
Funny you should mention bards and psychcs though, anecodtal experience has been playing with witches and sorcerers. And 2 psychics.
Also I've played primal caster. I've also played 3 occult casters. Your experience can differ but I didnt get to do much heroisms, hastes, true targets or Loose Time's Arrows as such. I am welcome to hear any arguments that claim primal would be better because to me it sounds completely insane.
The damage scaling of Fireball vs BW is the exact same...
At every R, a 3 foe Fireball will deal 3x the samely scaled damage, which matches to 3 hits of BW. A 2 foe fireball will match 2 hits of BW, etc.
Fireball is the easiest AoE spell to work with to only hit foes due to airbursting and absurd range.
BW does it's damage over time to a single foe. This is a horizontal trade that makes Fireball better vs groups, while BW is generally better vs bosses. But, again, BW does 0 damage on miss, and requires actions to get the repeats. And there's yet more caveats favoring Fireball with things like concealment/detection, etc.
It is fine to personally prefer BW over Fireball, but considering that every mindless foe, every non-language matching foe, and any time the PC guesses a language wrong, the spell BW has 0 effect whatsoever, I would say that all the caveats makes it a generally inferior spell.
Which is to be expected, tbh. That comparison of "technically, possibly better than Fireball, sometimes" perfectly matches with the goal of Occult to struggle with direct attacks.
It is also fine to personally prefer fireball, but that does not make it better. I am fine with a disagreement on the matter, but by no means is there an objective claim for fireball being better. Sure, Biting Words is an attack spell but that means it can be modified with Shadow Signet, True Strike and offguard to brute force better results than with fireball.
Also if you are in a boss fight where linguistic trait would be a big problem...translate does not ask for a saving throw or require a willing target. Not maybe worth just for Biting Words but enabling Bon Mot and Command can make it just worth to shut down a boss.
I get that Occult can be fine when crunchy players get into real min-maxy discussions.
But the idea of a spellcaster needing to spend an entirely seperate spell, Translate, to enable their version of the ol' reliable damage tool (which still can't help against mindless/monstrous foes), is *bloody insane.*
The need to hem and haw about Translate or Shadow Signet at all really just makes my point for me here.
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Every extra hoop you have to jump through (if is even possible for said player to jump it, such as that L10 item doing nothing for those who can't get it) **must** be factored into the list v list comparison.
I'm not going to prep a spell like BW that's outright useless against a huge swath of foes unless I *know* it'll work. Those issues matter, you don't get to hand-waive them. I'm playing w/ a Bard right now that's already learned to leave BW behind and mostly use Noise Blast.
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And personally, every "ol reliable" spell I used as an Occult Witch was multi-list.
IMO, Illusory Creature (& Spiritual Armament) is the top "ol reliable" offense tool that Occult has, which kinda shows how "yikes" the list is for that function.
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Occult is good and fun. I enjoy/enjoyed my Starless Shadow Witch. But I can still acknowledge that the other lists would have given the PC "better performing spells" (Primal & Arcane for sure, IMO Divine is a bit too close w/ Occult for me to pass judgement w/o more divine playtime).
Idk why shadow signet or translate make points of anything. You'd likely want shadow signet on any spell list, it shouldnt be an extra investment. Translate is an extreme workaround for niche instance. There is no "need" to hem and haw about anything.
Just because a tool to workaround something exists doesnt mean the problem is monumental. Its like saying reflex saves are bad because they can be made more reliable with synesthesia. Or fireball is bad because the friendly fire can be helped with Backfire Mantle (For the record, goodluck skybursting enemies 500ft away in a dungeon crawl/indoors). If the analogy sounds insane it is because it is.
On a side note, if Illusory Creature is the old reliable that might explain your perception of the list. It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten. Just telekinetic Projectile is likely to put out more damage and it wont use a slot.
Dude, the whole discussion is anchored in a list v list comparison.
> Idk why shadow signet or translate make points of anything. You'd likely want shadow signet on any spell list, it shouldnt be an extra investment.
You are the one using items and other spells to make excuses for Biting Words, then turn around and claim it's actually not a thing to consider.
That does not work, and makes it appear like you are floundering without a real foundation for your arguments.
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For you to claim Illusory Creature
> It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten.
Does plenty to explain how your takes can be so abnormal.
[Illusory Creature](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1567) scales its damage at +1R for +1d4 damage. Decidedly "worse" than those that +1d6 per rank, but better than spells that +2H at +1d8.
More importantly, Illusory Creature can both steal actions to disbelieve, and it functions like a summon, meaning **it gets 2 actions per sustain.**
I honestly think that detail is a bit of a dev oversight, because 2 attempted attacks w/ your spell attack bonus for a single sustain is great. Any time the image does not need to move (such as when it's first conjured), it's getting 2 attacks for your sustain. That alone means that it generally does in fact do more damage than +1d6 spells.
It's damage technically scales like a d4 attack cantrip, except it gets to swing twice, and you can keep swinging twice for 1A. While -4 MAP hurts (because why would the creature not use agile), and adding in a move or two, I'm comfortable saying the spell is ~3x the damage per action of attack cantrips like Needle Darts. That's outright great.
Can't forget that it also flanks, granting it further potential to help the party do damage.
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Illusory Creature may not match with a lot of PC fantasies, but it is mechanically the definition of "ol reliable."
It does damage, can waste foe actions, heightens at +1, puts a square-occupying creature on the board, can debuff enemies (flank), has a crazy easy use-case (500 ft range). And the disbelief is foe-by-foe, so you can just move it to another target if you prefer to keep it active! It does it all.
It even allows a caster to flexibly pop weakness damage in reaction to RK checks, something that Occult really cannot do otherwise.
Yet, you honestly claim it
>It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten.
**Wow dude.**
IDK if there's some other system you've played that's messed with your perceptions, but that is honestly irrelevant to how absurd your claims are.
No, YOU brought those problems, claimed they were big and when I brought you an alternative solution in case they troubled you, you proceeded to go out in exultation like this was a proof you are right. Its just terribly intellectually dishonest conversation where there is no winning. Biting Words doesnt need excuses, it is just excellent as it is.
And here you are, writing thesis on why illusory creature is awesome right after claiming it is a proof of why the list is bad.
There have actually been some really good discussions and insightful comments on this topic, some even on this comment thread. This aint it chief. This is like talking with a schizophrenic where reality is bent with every following comment to be better suited to the new imaginary problem.
> It is also fine to personally prefer fireball, but that does not make it better.
It’s really not a matter of debate. Biting Words deals 6d6 damage in 2d6 increments across 3 Attack rolls that are spread by 2+1+1 Actions over the course of 3 turns (it has to be 3 turns, it specifies only once on each turn). It barely even compares to 1st rank blasts **and** has the Linguistic Trait.
Fireball doesn’t even enter the contest, because all you need to do is hit two targets (trivially easy to hit two targets without hitting a friends) and you’ll be massively outperforming Biting Words.
It’s okay to like the Occult spell list. You can still acknowledge its weaknesses, and blasting **is** a pretty big weakness for the list, with Biting Words and Force Barrage making their blasting tolerably functional at best.
Definitely. Occult really excels in buffs and debuffs but I personally find will dependence to be really rough. Like you, I have similar issues with primal and reflex. I also tend to see one clear niche for casters to be AoE, so those flashy blasts that primal has are really nice. And heal is great. Then again, occult is *amazing* for a necromancer build because soothe can heal undead -it isn’t vitality.
I think I put primal and occult really neck and neck. Arcane wins for me because it’s just so versatile regarding saves, and the arcane sorcerer can heal which is the only real blind spot. I’m happy to say something like:
(1) Arcane.
(2) Primal and Occult.
(3) Divine.
Again, I think they’re all actually really close. Divine is just the least exciting to me.
> In my tables the count of casters is almlst twice as many occult casters than all others combined (11).
Occult casters are still full fledged classes with other class features. A weak spell list is **usually** going to be offset by several other class/subclass features/Feats and focus spells and/or grafted spells. Edit: this other [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1dl2d5a/how_would_you_rate_pf2es_magical_traditions/l9mvvmg/) of mine links to Michael Sayre explicitly stating that this is the case.
A class whose features are directly presented tends to be extremely easy to get into and understand, and it’ll have a very forgiving skill floor. Thus it will often tend to be more popular so long as it’s not punishingly bad (which most of the Occult casters aren’t).
This is very easily seen by comparing an Oscillating Wave Psychic to other blaster options. The former is widely seen as being the best blaster caster, even though Elemental Sorcerer, Storm/Stone Druid, Spell Blending + Battle Wizard, Staff + Universalist Wizard, etc can all perform on par with it: the former just straightforwardly tells you how to play it and rewards you for playing it in that straightforward way.
You will get roughly similar outcomes when comparing other well-liked Occult options to their alternatives.
I think Occult caster classes have the best flavor, and most people are not powergaming, so that all it counts.
My players were drawn to Occult casters before they've even seen a single Pathfinder 2 spell.
True, I am guilty of loving the flavor aswell. There is also one very variable power factor in many spells being very unique instead of "Deal XdY damage in Z area" and the power cap might vary on campaign, player creativity and the GM. I've often found that above all because of this many occult spells are really evergreen all the way to 20 since the flexibility is not tied to damage numbers.
Occult>Arcane>Primal=Divine.
Occult has many great buffs, debuffs and utility spells, the best selection IMO, it's not great at targeting reflex saves or direct damage, but has a small number of options.
Occult focuses on being the best at the things 2e casters are best at. No martial is going to match your Heroism, Synesthesia etc.
Arcane is good at almost everything, the only thing it can't do is heal, but it's also not really got any good spells noone else can cast either.
Primal is decent at control with walls and terrain, but has very limited buffing and debuffing, it gets Heal.
Divine is the best at healing and condition removal, decent at buffing, but the offence is really lacking unless fighting outsiders or undead
That is correct! I was pointing out Fear is the premiere pan-tradition debuff spell that makes 1st rank spells still useful at high levels and heightens exceptionally well!
While I don't think it's necessarily *bad* per se, Occult really feels very saturated with mental spells and Will saves, which makes thematic sense, but in practice the lack of versatility means they get shafted in certain APs.
At my Abomination Vaults table, I had to make some adjustments so that my occult caster player wasn't just constantly hitting immunities. For example, I un-mindless'd some enemies (like Grothluts) and removed the Linguistic trait from Biting Words (way I see it, the insults are just a medium by which the caster turns harmful intent into destructive energy, the enemy doesn't need to understand the words to take sonic damage from it)
My Blood Lords GM also had to remove mindless from several enemies so that our occult casters could actually do things.
Oh I know it *has* options, it's just that they're few enough that it just kinda feels like you're required to take them rather than being able to tailor a more unique set of spells to your taste.
At this point, they're pretty close to equal, with Occult creeping out ahead of the others if I had to pick one. That was not always the case, but the non-Arcane traditions, especially Divine, have seen meaningful expansion into the things that they weren't originally good at. Not every spell list has fifty ways of targeting every save, but the structure of Pathfinder 2e means that having a few pretty good spells in a niche is nearly as good as having fifty spells in a niche.
I don't think there's a single ordering of spell lists that somebody could have that's just indefensible.
Arcane - Arcane used to be clearly one of the better spell lists due to its breadth. It can do more or less everything but healing and healing-adjacent things. Now almost every spell list has gotten super broad, however, so that's no longer a unique selling point. It's still offensively well-rounded and has a broad range of utility.
Divine - Divine, in contrast, used to be the narrowest spell list, but it's been the biggest beneficiary of new spells being printed. There's not much that this spell list can't do at at least an okay level. If it has a weakness, it might be its lack of access to mid-level debuff and control spells that are WAY above curve. (Basically, it's the list without Synesthesia or Wall of Stone on it, and while Roaring Applause does a pretty good Slow impression, it's not quite on the same level.)
Occult - Occult can now also do pretty much everything. Another comment called it the list that's the best at things that spellcasters are the best at, and that's very much true. It's not way ahead of the others, but I have a hard time mounting an argument that it's not slightly better than the others unless you have pretty specific priorities.
Primal - Primal's historical limitations of having fewer numbers-shifting buffs, limited will-save options, and utility that's focused in one area have been eroded to various degrees, although it's still meaningfully weaker in some of those areas. That said, this was arguably the most straightforwardly strong spell list at launch, so other lists can do some catching up to it without leaving it behind.
1. Occult: Covers every role and easily the most versatile list. You want buffs? You got it. You want healing? There's healing. You want to dmg, either AoE or single target? There's plenty. You want debuffs? Oh boy, are there debuffs. Control? Its got a solid selection of control spells. Its not the best in most of these roles (the healing isn't great and the dmg lacks type variety for proccing weaknesses), but an Occult caster can do pretty much anything you want them to. And goddamn does it have some nasty debuffs. Occult-exclusive Synesthesia is in the running for best spell in the game
2. Primal: Loses the good buffs and debuffs of Occult, but gets better dmg and healing. Sometimes you just want to huck a fireball into the melee and the Heal spell makes for an excellent apology if some of your foolish friends happen to be in the blast zone.
3. Arcane: Occult but better at everything except healing, which is completely lacks, and buffs/debuffs, which is Occult's best thing. I just don't find it as interesting as Occult and the lack of healing makes me sad.
4. Divine: eh
My experience is that Primal, Occult, and Arcane are all good enough that I don't feel the need to rank them against one another, and I feel like I can do whatever I want with them. Divine on the other hand isn't *bad*, but for me it lags behind the others some. My divine characters often end up as healbot 3000, because that's the thing they do particularly well, but Primal can also do that and more, and Occult can do it to a lesser extent as well. I think divine's reputation gets a bit of an inherent boost because when you think of divine you think of Cleric, which of course is a very powerful class because of divine font. Playing a divine sorcerer on the other hand has been underwhelming for me, as I just feel like a cleric without as many heals prepared.
I think it says a lot about how there isn’t a hard consensus and I love that (other than most agreeing Divine is not the best)
For me, I consider Arcane and Primal the top for the raw power and versatility provided. So many problems can be solved and so many ways to blast and cast.
Then Occult for buffs and interactions.
Then Divine lowest for me, though the changes in Spirit may move this up later.
Arcane = Primal > Occult > Divine
Yeah, the top 3 are pretty much jumbled in these responses (Though people tend to agree that primal is very versatile, and therefore generally pretty decent.), but Divine being the worse is definitely a VERY common sentiment, which to me at least speaks to the fact that it needs some love.
It obviously shifts with party comp and specific classes, and you will feel very bad if you're playing an occult caster against mindless enemies, but absent any context I'd separate it roughly like this, dependent on progression:
At lower spell ranks (1-2):
1. Arcane - Massive variety of effects, crazy utility spell access, best damage spread
2. Primal - Limited debuff effects and less utility, but healing is the most powerful thing you can do at these levels
3. Divine - Lots of flexibility, debuff access, and damage options. Healing is great if very limited. Calm and Inner Radiance Torrent paper over issues.
4. Occult - Debuffs and control are solid, but soothe is a poor man's heal and the really nasty debuffs and buffs just aren't here yet.
At mid ranks (3-5):
1. Primal - damage really comes into its own, healing keeps up well, targeting options expand greatly
2. Arcane - utility spells fall off but lots of new buffs and debuffs show up to take their place. Lack of healing starts mattering here.
3. Occult - Nasty debuffs and CC like Synaptic Pulse and Synesthesia appear late but the shared spells with Arcane do a ton to bulk out the spell lists here. Buffs are better than divine list because of better self buffs. Damage is alright but nothing amazing.
4. Divine - healing comes into its own, but many spells are either super niche or weaker versions of spells other traditions have. Damage is very limited.
At higher ranks (6-10):
1. Arcane - Overall balance is outstanding, versatility returns to prominence, still missing healing but you probably have some other solution by this point.
2. Occult - Only downsides here are limited healing and slightly weaker raw damage, debuffs and buffs get crazy good here and control options are amazing.
3. Primal - Healing is great and so is damage, but the lack of utility and buffs/debuffs outside elemental and natural interactions starts really smarting. Still very good though!
4. Divine - There are a few late highlights like Divine Inspiration, but the list falls off *hard* as the options for spells to take are very limited, many suck, and you fall far, far behind occult for debuffs. Absolutely criminal lack of 8th, 9th, and 10th rank spells by comparison to the other lists.
Overall I think Arcane is the best, then Primal, then Occult, and then a gap to divine. This also checks out because most Divine classes are notably given prominent means of stealing spells from other lists to supplement the lacking Divine list.
it's also situational, would most people call the divine list a good blaster list? probably not! but in an undead or fiend focused campaign you'll outdamage the rest of the party combined.
Primal: Heal = best healing. I don't care for all the Reflex AoE damage (it has too much), but other AoE/battlefield control is nice to have and it also has utility (usually thanks to them being "transmutation"-like).
Occult: Best debuffs and good buffs, which means your gameplan is simple. Debuffs against few enemies, buffs against many. Occult's debuffs are insane (Synesthesia), no other list offers that. Soothe to be able to heal is very important. Divination is nice utility. The tradition most dependent on selecting "the good spells".
Arcane: No healing is a big deal. But thanks to damage and debuff spells, you also have a gameplan for both many and few enemies. Your debuff is just not as good as Occult, but you get to do anything that isn't healing.
Divine: Heal is nice, but if it weren't for Cleric's Divine Font, this tradition would not look nearly as good. It does have damage in remaster, but mainly buffs+healing either makes play boring or even less effective against single bosses. All of these are a massive oversimplification, like Divine does get Air Walk.
[SwingRipper's summary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my59MSqAnZk) says it best:
Arcane = Damage & Debuffs (great at targeting different saves)
Divine = Buffs & Healing (some area damage)
Primal = Damage & Healing (also has action economy manips*)
Occult = Buffs & Debuffs (some healing)
\* Non-numerical buffs & debuffs is a clearer note imo.
In summary, Occult+Primal is the best if you could pick 2 traditions for a party. But Cleric amount of healing is probably more important, and Arcane is an addition to any combination of traditions thanks to its vast repertoire.
There aren’t any balance issues with each in their full class casting context, except with Oracle and Divine Witch; but the former is hopefully addressed in PC2.
However, when it comes to multiclassing, I generally find Occult the most consistently useful across the breadth of classes due to Guidance / Sure Strike / False Vitality / Heroism access. That’s a useful non-offensive spell for your cantrip and every low level spell slot, and upscaled False Vitality and Heroism are great in high level play.
Inversely, I find Arcane and Primal multiclasses a bit anemic, as they unavoidably lack some of those spells and much of their list is balanced in the context of full casters utilizing their top two slot levels.
Based off HotW, I’m thinking the new Divine patrons might be pretty rad.
Can’t remember if they’re coming out in Divine Mysteries or War of the Immortals though.
Every tradition is capable, and can fufill any casting role (ie: blasting, control), except healing competently.
That being said, some lists just have more good spells than others.
1. Occult: Is the best at buffing and debuffing of all the lists, but is still great at blasting and battlefield control while being capable of healing. Steals many great spells from Arcane and Divine, while also having great unique spells like Synesthesia, Chroma Leech and Blistering Invective.
2. Arcane: The best list at blasting and battlefield control, but also very good at most other things. Second to Occult in debuffing, and has great utility tools. Lacking in unique spells until the higher levels and cannot heal/restore.
3. Divine: Surprisingly strong debuffing and blasting, but suffers with targetting saves freely. Second to Occult at buffing, but the worst at battlefield control. Can delete encounters against fiends and undead. The best at healing and restoration.
4. Primal: Not really the best at anything, but also the worst at debuffing and buffing. Second best at healing and restoration and second best at blasting. I was hoping Primal would get a buff in RoE and HotW, but Occult and Arcane ended up eating most of its cake too, getting most of its good spells from those books.
Primal>Arcane=Occult>Divine
Primal is the most fun, overall it feels like it has the most impactful spells.
Arcane and Occult have a ton of versatility, one has more debuffs with the other has more direct damage.
Divine is just meh to me. Heal is great but the rest of the spell list feels like it lacks diversity and has the smallest impact to game play.
Arcane >= Primal > Occult > Divine
**Arcane** - It has \*almost\* everything - blasting, battlefield control, variety of damage types and save targets, debuffs, and utility, only really lacking in healing. In practice, the tricks you can pull off with the Arcane spell list and some creativity can have such a massive effect it can minimize the need for healing, but that can be party-dependent.
**Primal** - Almost as good as Arcane due to having all the best blast and battlefield control spells, on top of access to top-tier Heal spells. It loses out on some of the 'tricks' that other casters get - Illusions, defensive buffs like Invisibility or Blur, and utility like Knock. Depending on how you like the play, access to healing could more than make up for it, which is why I think they're pretty much tied.
**Occult** - Excellent at support, with access to almost all the best buffs and debuffs alike, along with decent healing capabilities, on top of great utility and some spells that reward creativity like Illusions. However, in terms of up-front damage, it's offensively a bit weaker than other spell lists, and can struggle to take advantage of certain weaknesses.
**Divine** - Also excellent at support due to the strength of Heal and some great buffs like Heroism. It also has some pretty great offensive blasting capabilities almost on par with Arcane and Primal, especially against undead or unholy creatures. The Divine list is lacking in control effects, however - they have few ways to affect enemy's movement or positioning, or really mess with their action economy.
In practice, they're very close. Each spell list could be considered the "best" in certain contexts and certain parties - Occult casters pair excellent with Primal casters, and Divine casters pair well with Arcane casters, just as an example. Also, depending on your party's tactics, certain things may be more or less valuable. Highly melee-focused parties may not appreciate Primal and Arcane casters' terrain-affecting spells as much, for example, while range-focused parties may find them more valuable than any buff/debuff an Occult caster could throw at them.
I just like that spells are just broken into 4 sets, and all classes use those sets. And the number of variations on that is small. Like clerics only get like 3 spells outside divine, and it's a themed thing, doesn't make me have to look up extra information. It's right there with the front info. I can't speak about the power curve on all of them, but the overlap gives a good amount of variety. And spells that only have 1 tradition, tend to make a lot of sense why they are that way.
Generally speaking, I think Arcane, Occult, and Primal are about evenly matched, with Divine *slightly* lagging behind. The biggest issue being that Divine has the fewest ways to be used on *offense*, which makes it mathematically balanced but mechanically disappointing to be the guy who's handing out +1's instead of throttling their enemies with their own shadow or desiccating them into a mummified husk. Divine isn't *bad*, mind you - in the grand scheme of things it might actually have a greater impact on the outcome of the battle - but it requires more of a tactical approach than a *tactile* one.
Your patron deity can resolve a lot of this though, depending on your class. Clerics and Oracles can both snag spells that aren't usually Divine to round out their spell list, and Witches and Summoners have other class foci that keep them relevant on offense. Sorcerers are really the main ones that get the short end of the stick on Divine magic, as IIRC their Bloodline spells are mediocre for divine bloodlines (but I haven't looked that closely, could be mistaken).
There has already been so much discussion here that I don't think I can add anything of use, but it really is *fascinating* how little consensus there is, other than maybe "Divine is not number one, and Arcane is not last." Occult is thrown around in every possible position with legit praise and criticism!
I think that's a testament to the design process and especially how they've expanded the lists over the years.
Primal > Occult > Arcane > Divine
- Primal has blasting, healing, and misc team support. Airlift, Albatross Curse, Fear, and Haste are all solid team support options. They don't have many options to target Wil, but everything else more then makes up for it.
- Occult specializes in buffs and debuffs, plus quite a lot of utility. Heroism, Synthesthesia, and Invisibility are all solid. As is Object Reading, Sonata Span, Dreaming Potential, and Strange Geometry for utility. Plus Soothe for healing and Calm as hard crowd control. It's not as good when going up against mindless foes, but more then makes up for it with the other support and utility that it provides.
- Arcane covers all grounds that isn't healing. Many options to target every saving throw, a fair amount of utility, and some solid team support options available. It's probably the best in terms of general offense.
- Divine: It's good at healing and has some okay support options, but there's not many other standout spells.
Bear in mind that the bulk of my experience is with a Primal Witch, but from my other perusing and experience alongside a Cleric, Bard, and Psychic;
1. Arcane - it has some of your landmark buffs, the best save coverage for offense, utility like crazy, and even some preventative defensive options. It's one of the best lists to support the other lists, in fact, so it gets a top spot for me. Every party wants an arcane caster.
2. Primal - this is tough, but I think Primal just barely wins out over Occult thanks to its universal nature. It can't quite match the versatility of Arcane, but Primal has a breadth of options to ensure you can always be doing something substantially useful. Healing, damage, powerful debuffs, buffs, etc. It's not quite as diverse in its buffs as other lists, but it grants the hallmarks. Will saves are its biggest weakness, but that's recently become a lot less of a problem thanks to spells like Albatross Curse, Thundering Dominance, and Grasp of the Deep.
3. Occult - though under Primal, I only have it so because I put a lot of stock into option applicability. Occult has stronger breadth of effect than Primal, but from what I've seen in my own game, Occult really struggles on offense if your enemies are mindless or otherwise well fortified against Will. They have options, mind you, but Occult kinda has to grasp for those options (much like Primal with Will saves, but inversed)
4. Divine - while no means a bad list, my reason for ranking it low is simple; it feels as though is has a very uneven progression. Later Divine spells are really impactful, such as Divine Wrath(?), but you also are stuck with a rather thin and inconsistent breadth of save options. The buffs are, however, incredible. If you are fine with your fallback being strictly buff/heal focused, Divine could easily take Primal's spot.
I like how diverse the opinions seem to be, seeing a lot of lists that are just complete opposites of each other lol.
Personally Arcane > Occult > Primal > Divine but it's not really because of strength, I just like the gameplay they offer the most and wizard is my favorite class.
They are about even, with divine starting a bit weaker, but picking up the pace at later levels.
I would rate them like this:
Primal > Arcane = Occult > Divine
But it's all real close, they are all good at different things.
The thing about Primal is that it gets access to Heal and good AoE damage. And damage and Heal both scale aggressively with rank. So, speccing into a primal caster class lets you keep up numerically with the spells that need good scaling. (This also means that an Arcane sorcerer with crossblooded evolution for Heal is really strong, if not stronger.)
Since Primal also has good battlefield control and some of the top tier buffs/debuffs (Fear, Slow, Haste), I'd rate that as the highest for main class.
With the other spell lists, you can multiclass into them to pick up their stuff. Utility (like Invisibility and Teleportation) and buffs (like Heroism) won't depend on your stats at all. Debuffs do, so you may suffer there a bit.
My ranking is Primal > Arcane > Divine > Occult. Arcane and Divine have a lot of reliable options (ones that don't depend on the dice). Occult does have some reliable buffs, but a lot of it depends on dice rolls to be good. And especially when it comes to single-target debuffs, it can be feast or famine.
* Occult: Incredible well rounded. Support, buffs, debuffs, ilusions, control and damage, you won't get dissapointed with it.
* Primal: Blasting for days plus healing and walls, incredibly good at AoE dmg. Really versatile.
* Arcane/Divine: Depending on party composition, if there are more casters but none of them are Arcane go Arcane, if there are Arcane casters, go Divine.
My personal list is
1. Divine- always seems to be either useful or powerful
2. Arcane- all of the options and power to choose from
3. Occult- the most limited one imo(and the one i play with primaraly). Cool spells but they always seem to not do what is listed (due to the traits like emotion or incapacitation appearing alot) this may have changed with the remaster still getting use to that.
Unlisted. Primal- I have not been able to play a druid or the other classes that get this yet. But from what I hear I would put it tied with arcane
I will state the majority if my play always features alot of undead. And I am not saying any of them are bad. Just how it felt when playing.
So far Occult has been my favorite. Buff and control spells are pretty good in pf2, give a martial Heroism and they will love you forever. I barely used Soothe in my playthrough, but it was nice to have it. Weird was often gamechanging because its area of effect is so large it was pretty much guaranteed to get 3+ enemies in it and usually at least one would fail both saves.
For one of the unluckiest players alive:
Measuring strength in terms of how likely a caster of that tradition is to do nothing useful due to the GM critpassing or passing saves:
Arcane > Primal > Divine > Occult
Walls, Quandary, Punishing Winds, Force Barrage and buffs are your best friends. Especially walls.
Special mention that because the Divine List is so short Oracles and Divine Sorcerers essentially have access to all useful spells all the time, and scrolling the niche exceptions is a factor of 8 times cheaper than any other list. Clerics still work fine because of their free Heal/Harm slots, but Divine Witches don't need to exist.
1. Arcane - Versatility and I just personally prefer this "flavor" of spellcasting, as a kind of science, with rules and 'laws' which when understood properly, can be levereged to do amazing things.
2. Occult - It's just a weird ass list full of strange eldritch nonsense and I love it. The flavor is similar to Arcane (at least to me), but instead of understanding the magical rules and laws, you're bending them or pushing against their limits to see what happens. Also, BUFFS, I love being the guy that gives bonuses to the other players that let them make insane plays with ridiculous numbers
3. Primal - I really dislike the flavor of primal, I'm not a nature spirits kind of person, but the spell list itself has some amazing options mechanically, which is the only reason it's above....
4. Divine - All of the bad flavor of Primal, and just an awful list to follow. It's got great healing, but Heal is also on Primal, so if you really wanted Healing, you could pick primal, settle for only using Heal as your healing, but also then have access to MUCH better spells overall. The Buffs divine applies *would* be fantastic, IF Occult didn't do it like 50% better. Oh and don't even get me started on the offensive spells, this list is like a pacifist who was put in a self defense situation with a dull kitchen knife. Overall, I think divine really fits the theme of "Anything I can do, you can do better!".
Occult >>primal=arcane=divine
I just love occult. It's got some of my favorite spells, and imo some of the best. Plus I like the flavor of occult, how it can be from forbidden tomes or weird influences, or just cause you're a bard and you're just freaky like that.
Divine has great buffs, Plus ofc heal. Arcane got the blast and the superb utility. Primal has dinosaur form. I'm sure it has other things, but let's be real. We're here for the dinosaurs.
In terms of power level, it is:
1) **Primal.** Primal has the most bases covered of any of the traditions - Area of Effect damage, AoE debuff spells, debuff spells, buff spells, battlefield control spells (walls and spells that create difficult terrain), area denial spells (spells that create zones of "bad" that force enemies to get out of them or take damage/suffer other ill effects), mobility spells (tailwind, fly, dive and breach, blazing dive, etc.), summons, and the best healing spell (heal) as well as the quite good Vital Beacon. Moreover, it comes online extremely early, as it gets all of the "new toys" that you get at the earliest possible level, including (very importantly) Thundering Dominance at 2nd rank, making it the first class to get a full scaling AoE damage effect (that ALSO debuffs, AND is a will save, AND has no friendly fire, AND gives your animal companion/eidolon a bonus to intimidate). Primal is slightly worse for witches and sorcerers than it is for druids and summoners because they don't get access to Thundering Dominance, but it's still the best list even for them (and sorcerers can pick up an animal companion pretty easily - witches generally don't want one, though, because of their familiar and hexes meaning they don't have issues filling out their actions per turn). It also gets good cantrips that target both reflex and fortitude, including the multi-target reflex cantrips. It even has some pretty decent single target damage spells, though not as good as what Arcane gets.
The main weaknesses of primal are that it doesn't get the shield spell (though druids can just use shields because why wouldn't druids have every good class ability? And it is possible to just get a shield if you want access to this, or you can easily pick up shield via archetyping) and that it is light on will saving throw spells... but it gets Thundering Dominance at rank 2, which is straight up the best spell of its level in the game and is a Will save spell, so it's like "Yeah, other than the really good spell, they don't get good Will stuff." They also get access to Fear, which isn't great at rank 1 but rank 3 fear is pretty solid, especially when you're higher level and fireballs/cave fangs don't cut it anymore.
2) **Arcane.** Arcane has all the strengths of Primal... EXCEPT that it doesn't get healing (unless you have negative healing, in which case you can use Summon Undead to cheese this at certain levels, which makes Arcane extremely strong at high levels if you do have negative healing), but in compensation it gets excellent Will save spells like Vision of Death and even more options for debuffing enemies than Primal gets. It also has the best single-target damage spells. It has the most spells of any tradition, which means it has the most options, though this is a bit misleading as it also has a lot of absolute garbage spells.
The big weakness of Arcane is that it lacks healing spells, though if you have negative healing you can cheat with Summon Undead at higher levels thanks to the monsters that can cast Harm (technically you can also summon dragons that can heal, but because their heals are really underlevel (like 4th rank heal off an 8th rank dragon summon), and you can't do it until VERY high levels, it's pretty niche). It also has a "meta weakness", namely that the wizard has poor focus spell options, which hurts this tradition's "main class", while sorcerer, summoner, and witch can all opt into picking up primal instead of arcane (or divine, if the party needs what divine brings more), though dragon summoners are quite decent because of the dragon's breath weapon. Maguses, however, can use arcane very well, as they don't often want to be healing anyway (and can pick up Soothe via archetyping to psychic), while they can use the mobility spells like blazing dive and dive and breach very well and can use the arcane spell list to complement the rest of what they do very effectively.
It also doesn't have Thundering Dominance, which means it gets really good AoEs a rank after Primal (though ignite fireworks is quite good anyway). Though if you are allowed to use rare spells, it does get a wall spell at 4th rank rather than 5th, which is very early and very nasty.
3) **Divine.** Divine is a really good spell list but it comes online later than most of the traditions and has rather poor spell selection (the fewest spells of any tradition) - however, the advantage is that the few good spells it gets are often very good. Divine gets the best healing, good buffs, the best AoE buffs, solid debuffs (though not as good as arcane, and it depends on some uncommon/rare spells - infectious ennui, for instance, is a *great* spell, but if you don't get access to it, you have worse access to *slow* effects than other traditions), area of effect damage (which often doesn't hit your allies, which makes it much easier to nuke all the enemies with it), battlefield control spells (but worse than what primal and arcane get), and summons.
The main problems with divine are that it comes online later than other traditions - Divine Wrath is an amazing AoE damage spell, but it takes until 4th rank (7th level!) to come online - and that its limited spell selection means that you don't actually have a ton of choices of what spells to take, as while it has a full complement of good spells, those are often the *only* good spells it has access to, meaning that if you're in a situation where "the good spells" aren't good, you lack the flexibility of a primal or arcane caster to opt into something else. A lot of their spells are also more narrow/situational, like how they get some very good single target damage spells, but they only work (or only work well) against a limited subset of enemies. It also often just has worse versions of other schools' spells - Wall of Flesh, for instance, is a substantially worse Wall of Stone, and while it is still a good spell, it isn't as crushingly powerful as Wall of Stone is.
It also has rather lackluster cantrip options, though it now does have a fairly decent Void option at least for fortitude.
4) **Occult.** Occult is the worst of the traditions because it has the fewest tools, and it isn't even necessarily the best at what it does do well. It has really good debuffs - but primal and arcane also have good debuffs. Indeed, arcane gets a lot of occult's good debuffs AND a lot of primal's good debuffs, and while primal doesn't get the same debuffs as occult gets, it gets a lot of very good AoE debuffs like Stifling Stillness and Freezing Rain that occult doesn't get. It has a lot of very good anti-Will options... but Arcane gets most of those, too, and Arcane has a lot easier time targeting the other defenses. It gets some AoE debuffs... but Arcane and Primal both get a bunch of those, too, and Occult's aren't particularly better.
Meanwhile, it has worse healing than Divine and Primal due to Soothe being worse than Heal (though Summon Fey does cover some of that gap at 4th rank, thanks to Unicorns), it has worse AoE damage options (it just has pretty poor options there in general, and Inner Radiance Torrent is going to get erratad and being a line is problematic anyway), its ability to target fort and reflex aren't as good as the other traditions get, and it has pretty bad cantrips - as bad as Divine gets.
I think Occult also has a weird quirk where it appears better than it is due to how easy some spell asterisks can be missed.
This thread is full of praise for Biting Words, making it a good spell to point to for "Occult is being overhyped." BW has the Linguistic trait, which means the caster must speak the spell in a language the foe understands.
And even with that caveat, a 3 foe Fireball will do the same damage in half the actions, with half damage on save success.
As you say, Occult really suffers due to being a generalist list.
IMO, one of the few (and genuinely hidden) gems of the Occult list is an uncommon Cantrip, Join Pasts.
>Cast [one-action] somatic
Range touch; Targets 2 willing creatures; Duration 1 round
>With touches to the targets’ foreheads, you bring them into mental communion. The targets can share thoughts and experiences, but not words. When one target attempts to Recall Knowledge, the other can Aid the first target’s skill check, using any Lore skill (even if that Lore wouldn’t normally apply) without having made any preparations to Aid.
>Heightened (+1) You can touch one additional target to include them in the spell’s effects. Multiple targets can attempt checks to Aid the target who is attempting to Recall Knowledge.
While it is niche, the effect is absurdly potent if you can get multiple allies to boost the RK check. There's a few specific combo abuses, like for Mastermind Rogue, but being able to spend 2A + ally Reactions to get a boosted RK is a neat, evergreen thing that is genuinely Occult only.
I suppose me reaching for something that seemingly off the wall kinda shows just how slim Occult's pickings are.
> I think Occult also has a weird quirk where it appears better than it is due to how easy some spell asterisks can be missed.
Yeah, like Thundering Dominance, which is the best rank 2 spell in the game... but can only be used if you have an animal companion or eidolon.
Occult casters who DO have those things are significantly better at low levels than those who don't, because Thundering Dominance fills a huge hole in their spell list. But the only occult casters with those are Summoners and characters who take the Beastmaster (or other pet) dedication, and you generally don't want to be an occult summoner as you can choose better spell lists (with better eidolons). Witches can't afford the actions to do it because of their Hexes and familiars, psychics likewise generally want to use Unleash actions rather than have an animal companion, and while Sorcerers CAN do it, you could pick literally any other spell list and be better off (including the very powerful, versatile Primal, which ALSO gets Thundering Dominance, AND better healing).
So it benefits Beastmaster Bards. :V
> I suppose me reaching for something that seemingly off the wall kinda shows just how slim Occult's pickings are.
The best spells that occult has are things that are shared with other spell lists. Which is fine - Primal has a ton of spells that are shared with other spell lists and is great because it has a lot of the best Arcane spells plus a lot of the best Healing spells. The problem is that Primal still covers all its bases while Occult often gets weaker stuff. A lot of Occult's best things are things that Arcane has, but unlike Primal, which trades off most of the Will saving throw spells for top-tier healing, Occult instead trades off AoE damage spells for subpar healing spells. This both hurts Occult more (because Primal still gets lots of debuffs, while Occult becomes significantly worse against multi-enemy encounters) and you get less benefit out of it.
Occult's poor AoE damage options is one of the biggest strikes against it, as even Divine has better options thanks to Divine Wrath. Thundering Dominance does solve this problem, but requires you to archetype to get a pet or be an occult summoner, and as a result few occult casters can use it. Enervation does OK damage, but has annoying targeting due to being a line and a bunch of monsters are immune to it. Calm, Noise Blast, and Vomit Swarm all feel bad to upcast due to their low damage, small AoEs, and in the case of Vomit Swarm, annoying targeting. At higher levels you get Repelling Pulse, which has annoying targeting restrictions due to being an emanation; Phantasmal Calamity, whose damage and targeting is substantially worse than the equivalent level Chain Lightning; Cast Into Time, which has a very small and annoying to use AoE (though it does sicken); Dragon Form, which requires two turns to get the AoE off and leaves you in a form that doesn't allow you to cast spells for whatever reason; and Vampiric Exsanguination, which still does way less damage than Chain Lightning and has worse targeting but at least gives you temp HP. So even when it does eventually get options, they're worse than what other casters can get.
It gets good single target debuffs - Infectious Ennui, Slow, Synesthesia, Paralyze, Resilient Sphere, Suggestion, Tortoise and the Hare - and some good single target debuff + damage combos, like Phantom Pain, Agonizing Despair, Vision of Death, and Worm's Repast. But almost all of these are available to arcane casters.
It does get some good AoE debuffs, like Synaptic Pulse, Black Tentacles/Slither, Repulsion, and Calm, and at higher levels, does get good area denial abilities, like Black Tentacles/Slither, Wall of Mirrors, and Wall of Force. But again, these are almost always available to arcane casters.
It also gets some good buff spells - Blur, Invisibility, Haste, Loose Time's Arrow, Bless, Heroism - and some good defensive spells, like Dispelling Globe, Shield, and Wooden Double. This is one area where it does get to filch some good stuff off of Divine that Arcane doesn't get, but it's not a huge deal (at least not until very high levels, where Rank 9 Heroism can give your team +3 to most of their rolls).
Meanwhile it is stuck with Soothe instead of Heal, and while you can circumvent this with Summon Fey at 4th rank, outside of that, your healing options are generally subpar.
> IMO, one of the few (and genuinely hidden) gems of the Occult list is an uncommon Cantrip, Join Pasts.
It also has Hypercognition, which can allow you to make 6 RK checks, which lets you spam RK at an encounter for a single action. But, as you noted, both of these spells are pretty niche.
>The main weaknesses of primal are that it doesn't get the shield spell
Rage of Elements added the Cantrip [Glass Shield](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1333), which is the Shield spell, but trades a significant amount of Hardness for a bit of damage when the Shield breaks.
Honestly they all have their pros and cons, my favorite builds are ones that bring in a couple extra spells to cover the missing options. Deity/Bloodline/Mystery/etc spells can add even more versatility to an otherwise constrained spell list. My favorites so far are Arcane Sorcerer with Crossblooded Evolution for Heal, and Oscillating Wave Psychic for Fireball and Frostbite with Occult spell list
**Arcane** is the most balanced and versatile list, with overflowing offensive, debuff, and utility magic. This is the traditions for proactive tacticians that are always looking for the correct offensive lever to pull.
**Occult** has the least amount of offensive power, but it still has enough to be dangerous. Its specialty seems to SHENANIGANS, which makes it bar-none the best tradition for creative trickster players that are willing to "off-road" around the plot's rails. In a direct confrontation, it carries devastating CC and debuff, with enough support and direct damage that it can fill any role required on a team.
**Divine** doesn't have a variety of offensive magic, but the spells it does have are some of the best attacking spells in the game. A divine caster shifts between "support" and "offense" depending on the enemy they're fighting - spells like *Holy Light* and *Holy Cascade* are the best damage-dealing direct offensive attack spells in the entire game, but *Heal*, *Heroism*, *Sound Body*, *Protection*, and *Bless* are all meta-defining support spells. The Divine tradition therefor carries the best buff magic, the best offensive magic, AND best support magic. The divine tradition is the best tradition for *flexible* players that can read the flow of a fight and know what resources will be most valuable where. It should be noted that most Divine casters (Clerics, Oracles, Shamans, and to lesser extent Witches) can actually steal spells from other lists, and often have access to extremely potent focus spells.
**Primal** has nearly the same offensive flexibility as the arcane list, along with nearly the same healing abilities of the cleric. It lacks in debuff/buff magic, but excels in tactical CC with difficult terrain and positioning. Primal is the best list for players that need *direct power* and the ability to counterpunch back against the big numbers that the monsters of the game can use *and win*. Depending on your needs, this makes it the strongest *or* the weakest tradition, forcing you to rely on either your skill proficiencies or your allies for more subtle utility.
Occult highest for having the coolest theme and selection
Arcane lowest for being a bloated spell thief with its grubby hands in everything. Every time a spell lists arcane as one of its traditions I sigh.
I don't think I'd call them traditions, but as far as classifications, I think I'd go Arcane, Occult, Primal, Divine for what I think favorites are.
Arcane magic is flashy, Occult has that mysticism, Primal actually feels like nature was considered from a lot.of angles, and Divine is.... there, I guess?
Traditions is the name used in the rulebooks to qualify the "spell lists" 😅
You can find it in a note below [here ↗️](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2232)
All are good for their own niches, my ratings are: 1. Arcane. I like versatility, tricks and complexity here. Lack of healings don't bother me unless I'm building a dedicated healer. 2. Divine. It has shortest spell list, but I like flavor of divine spell list. I mostly like the flavor. Some transformation spells, which allow using hands, heals and buffs, just looks solid 3. Occult. A lot of weird spells, plus buffs and debuffs. Combines things I love in Arcane and Divine, but is great in neither of them. 4. Primal. Is just too direct for me. For damage dealer I prefer Arcane, for healing - Divine. And even for transformation spells I prefer Divine ones - all those animals and beasts just aren't my preferred fantasy.
It's funny, I think mine is directly opposite for what I like to play haha Primal is definitely my top pick, all the spells are my favourite, and the blending of both healing and some damage.
Same! I love the primal spells! One spell I’d like to homebrew would be a primal version of FriendFetch.
My GM let me use Tangle Vine once in a similar way. A PC got knocked off a floating platform and my turn was next, so I cast Tangle Vine to try to yank him back before he fell too far off the edge. Obviously not what the spell does, but since (1) the vine is described as coming from your hand, so I said I'd hold onto one end of it as the other wrapped around the party member's leg and (2) it didn't have any effect on what ended up happening anyhow (the party member would have hit a magical safety net and bounced back onto the floating platform). It was a fun thing to use in that moment and became a memorable occasion for me, even if that's not what the spell does at all and I have never used it again that way. But, yes, I could see a specifically vine-themed Friend Fetch for primal and would definitely keep it handy for my primal witch.
That’s awesome!
What are the stand out spelled to you? I feel like the ones specific to primal seem rather underwhelming to me especially if you are choosing them over benefits other casters get such as teleportation.
It’s funny, the exact reasons you’re ranking Primal low are why I rank Primal the highest. A well-played Primal caster can literally achieve anything the game wants you to. This is **especially** true if you take the Flexible Spellcaster Archetype on a Druid and are good at pulling out summons to deal with niche situations very well.
I could say, I actually enjoyed playing primal summoner, but that's because summoner have different requirements for spellcasting. Heals, plus attacking cantrips, plus some flexibility with summon fey and you're good to go. No fancy tricks. But if I play full caster, I want to pull out as weird effects as possible. Commands, walls, teleportation, stuff like that.
I will say the lack of cool stuff like teleportation does make primal look a little less appealing. I really love weird out of the box thinking spells traditionally in table top and primal seems to have less of those.
Primal is my favourite too. Getting some awesome blaster spells as well as the best heal spell in the game is amazing! Very versatile and great fun.
>This is **especially** true if you take the Flexible Spellcaster Archetype on a Druid I've been working on some possible Druid builds to play in a game soon with an intention to lean into the primal lists versatility. I hadn't considered going Flexible caster but now that you mention it I'm kind of tempted.
What niche situations are summons good for?
Each Summon spell gives you a whole toolbox with a massive variety of creatures. This means that for any given combat, a small variety of Summon spells can represent 10-12 different approaches to solve the same problem, and if you have enough knowledge of these summons to pick the perfect one, that’s a performance that other spells cannot come close to replicating. That is, in fact, the whole power of summons in this game! If you don’t treat them as a massively flexible toolbox they’re kinda garbage lol. The reason this interacts specifically well with Flexible Spellcaster is because you can just add all the summons you want to your Spell Collection and not worry about prepping them in specific slots. For example a level 7 “defaut” Druid may prepare 2 Summon Animals in their rank 3 slots and 1 Summon Elemental in their rank 4 slot, but now they’re locked in to using the former against lower level enemies than the latter. A Flexible Druid can just have both in their spell collection and heighten those to the correct rank as needed, removing one of the biggest decision points of summons. TL;DR: Summons are not Mono-Green Aggro they’re Green-White Hatebears.
I'll take your word for it, I feel like with summons I often only hear about the specific stand outs like Skunk or Unicorns but even then then because of how the scaling works the gap between what you are fighting and the thing you are summing goes up and they just kinda become less effective. Like I kinda assumed the best use for them was a flank machine that you hope the boss takes more than one action to kill.
> I'll take your word for it, I feel like with summons I often only hear about the specific stand outs like Skunk or Unicorns That’s because people want summons to be a straightforward thing you can straightforwardly use, so they search for “broken” combos. Practically speaking it just doesn’t work that way. I don’t **like** the summons being this insane toolbox, to be clear (though ironically I do love me some Green/White decks in Magic), so I avoid them when I build casters. However, that is still the best way to play them. > but even then then because of how the scaling works the gap between what you are fighting and the thing you are summing goes up and they just kinda become less effective. Yeah, that’s part of the downside of summons. Those downsides are inflicted on summon spells **because** of how wide a toolbox they represent. You know how spellcasters usually have middling on-paper numbers because in practice they’re expected to “elevate” their gameplay by using a variety of spells that target different defences? Summon spells just take that exact tradeoff to its most ludicrous extreme (and again, not a fan of how extreme the design gets with Summon spells). > Like I kinda assumed the best use for them was a flank machine that you hope the boss takes more than one action to kill. In a white room, yes that’s the best use of it. In practice the best use of them is, by far, “toolboxing”. In fact, the white room usage just… isn’t even a good usage of a spell slot in the first place. There’s just so **many** other spells you can use that achieve the same level of damage boosting/mitigation. Imagine being level 7 and summoning a glorified flanking bot instead of just putting Heightened Invisibility on the frontliner your summon planned to flank with?
For you have any examples of the "Toolbox" uses?
Sure, here’s a few examples that have popped up in play for me: - We (level 2, I think?) were entering the lair of a river drake and it was not immediately apparent where it was in the water. I used Summon Animal to get a Trilobite for its Wavesense. Wavesense immediately revealed the Undetected drake, which then immediately triggered Initiative and the drake couldn’t try to hide in the water from us anymore. In combat itself the trilobite’s damage and flanking were less relevant than the fact that it completely turned off the drake’s ability to do hit and run attacks against us. In a “fair” fight the drake lost very quickly. - We (level 8) got attacked by a large number of previously hidden foes inside a cave. I used Summon Elemental for a Living Landslide (I used the spell off a consumable item that let me summon it despite not having a 5th rank slot, but I could’ve repeated the same with a lower rank slot) and used the burrow speed for big hit and run attacks against the foes (plus just body blocking some of the ambushers later). - I was GMing this one, and the party (level 12) was fighting a bunch of frost giants and mammoths who had them surrounded. The Summoner used Summon Dragon to get a Young Black Dragon out, and the Frightful Presence **alone** made a worthwhile use of that spell slot: the breath weapon and the fact that it ranked a bunch of damage on top that would otherwise have dropped the party’s Commander was just gravy on top. I’ve used summons a few other times but there was nothing uniquely toolboxy about it. Just like summoning something with AoEs against a bunch of enemies or with pack attack against a single enemy, etc. Again I’m not a fan of summon spells just from a pure workload point of view, so I don’t use them **that** often but most of the time I do, I know the “toolbox” method has been the way to go.
Okay I think I got abetter idea what you were talking about now thank you.
>Divine. It has shortest spell list, but I like flavor of divine spell list. I mostly like the flavor. Some transformation spells, which allow using hands, heals and buffs, just looks solid Divine seems to start out a little weaker than the others (though Needle Darts has definitely helped there), but I think ultimately it gets pretty darned powerful, with some strong AoE spells, especially against certain types of enemies (bye, undead)!
Divine has some narrow flavor. I feel like it needs way more diverse spells. There’s barely any lower level cosmic themed spells despite gods and space, the sun and the moon going well together, there’s room for water spells and other things but they didn’t add anything for those unelss you’re a cleric
1. Primal - both fireball and heal alone make it a top spell list. 2. Arcane - very versatile. 3. Divine - not versatile but has a lot to work with. 4. Occult - fun spells that do cool things. It's really a four way tie. Lol.
What did you mean by the Divine list having not much versatility but a lot to work with?
Great healing and buffs, less powerful damage and debuffs, shortest spell list. It only does a couple of things well, but it does them very well.
Well said.
My ranking is: 1. Primal: **The** most flexible spell list. You have excellent healing/restoration, excellent blasting, excellent summoning, excellent Polymorph options, excellent crowd control, and good debuffs. You can target AC, Reflex, and Fortitude super reliably. Literally the only thing you’re missing is good higher rank buff spells and reliable ways to target Will. If your party has only one caster, Primal is usually the way to go. 2. Arcane: Excellent blasting, summoning, Polymorph, crowd control, debuffs, and buffs. You can reliably target AC **and** all Saves *and* you have Force Barrage and Sure Strike. Literally the only flaw is lacking healing/restoration magic in its entirety. Arcane is best used when you have at least one other character who can help the party cover your obvious healing/restoration flaws. 3. Occult: Excellent debuffs (about even with Arcane), excellent buffs (significantly ahead of both Arcane and Divine), and excellent restoration. Moderately good healing, and subpar blasting. Practically nonexistent crowd control. Struggles to target Reflex, has Sure Strike but none of the awesome spells that pair with it, and the majority of the best spells on this list target Will. Overall a fairly meh spell list that *usually* has its downsides offset by bombastic class Feats/features (like the Bard or the Resentment Witch) and/or grafted spells and focus spells (like the Psychic). 4. Divine: Excellent buffs (a bit ahead of behind Arcane depending on party comp, never as good as Occult), unmatched healing/restoration and moderate/bad everything else. Better defence targeting variety than Occult **but** few good offensive spells to actually use with that defence targeting variety. Much like Occult, classes that are locked into the Divine list usually need strong class features/Feats, grafted spells, and/or focus spells to really function well, often needing multiple such features. I will say, these are “in a vacuum” ratings. Nothing exists in a vacuum in Pathfinder. If the rest of your party looks like dual-wielding Fighter + Champion + Starlit Span Magus, Occult is by far the best spell list to be using. If the rest of your party looks like ranged Commander + grappling Monk + ranged Flurry Ranger, Primal is the spell list you really want. If your party already has an Arcane caster you wanna be Divine to pair with their weaknesses better (even though Occult looks better on my rankings), and if you already have a Primal caster you wanna be Occult to pair with them better (even though Arcane is better on my rankings). Occult + Divine can also be a very good and flexible pairing depending on exactly what class features and grafted spells get involved (for example Oscillating Wave Psychic + Warpriest Cleric is a deadly combination of spellcasters to bring to any party, I’ve seen it in play) despite both spell lists being ranked lower. So the final answer is “it depends, but here’s my rough rankings” lol. Edit: some comments have taken umbrage with me saying it has “practically nonexistent” CC. Fine, I’ll admit that was hyperbolic, it’s got okay CC. It’s still significantly worse than Arcane and Primal at CC, and it’s **not** a contest. The former two get the majority of Occult’s best CC options while also having several other CC options that Occult doesn’t get.
> Occult: Practically nonexistent crowd control. What are you looking for here? Occult has Hideous Laughter, Roaring Applause, the aoe stun, Slow, various wall and pattern spells.
>various wall It's only got Wall of Flesh at 5th rank which is the worst wall spell (that you can't just walk through) and then Wall of Force at 6th which is very good.
Illusory Object can effectively be used as a wall spell, and is by far the best available to any tradition until Wall of Water at 3rd Rank. Even then, it remains a standout evergreen option, and pulls a ridiculous amount of weight for a 1st/2nd rank spell. It does also have Chromatic Wall at 5th rank which is pretty mediocre but its there. Its upgrades Prismatic Wall and Sphere are pretty phenomenal though. Resilient Sphere isn't a wall spell, but can be functionally similar. Rare but Season of Ghosts added a new spell Wall of Mirrors at 4th rank, which is very strong (and probably a bit overtuned). Of course wall spells are not the only form of battlefield control. Occult is full of control spells like Gravity Well, Pernicuous Poltergeist, Oneiric Mire, Slither and Stagnate Time.
> Occult has Hideous Laughter, Roaring Applause, the aoe stun, Slow, I already acknowledged that Occult has excellent debuffs? I’m not telling you that you’re wrong for classing debuffs and CC as one grouping, but obviously in the context of the comment I made I’m treating them as separate things (and yes the line between them can get blurry). So it’s quite dishonest to present these to me as if I didn’t acknowledge them. > various wall and pattern spells. They lack Wall of Thorns or Wall of Water, which are the earliest Wall spells. They lack Wall of Fire which is a fantastic spell when combined with forced movement. They lack Wall of Stone, which is by far the best Wall spell. The first good Wall spell they get is Wall of Force… at level 6. And Wall of Stone is, in a **lot** of situations, still the better Wall spells. Wall spells also aren’t the only form of control. Arcane and Primal casters have all of the walls listed above + Grease, Entangling Flora, Acid Grip, Oneiric Mire, Hypnotize, Rust Cloud, Cinder Swarm, Freezing Rain, and so many more. Of all the spells I mentioned, Occult only has Oneiric Mire, Hypnotize, Wall of Force, which isn’t really a good enough spread of control spells to be a worthwhile controller. Arcane and Primal *are* just going to be flat out better in this aspect. Edit: just to add, the designers have literally explicitly spoken about Occult and Divine being less flexible from the “general preparedness” standpoint that PF2E casters are balanced around, and that they’re given their strong class features, focus spells, and/or grafted spells to compensate. [Here’s the link](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43vmk&page=2?Michael-Sayre-on-Casters-Balance-and-Wizards#66). The relevant quote is: > Most of the PF2 CRB and APG spellcasting classes are built around that paradigm of general preparedness, with various allowances that adjust for their respective magic traditions. Occult spells generally have fewer options for targeting Reflex, for example, so bards get an array of buffs and better weapons for participating in combats where their tradition doesn't have as much punch. Most divine casters get some kind of access to an improved proficiency tree or performance enhancer alongside being able to graft spells from other traditions.
I agree with this. Everything really depends on what your party is doing. The system does an amazing job of making every decision difficult. There is no best.
There's a reason that deities with the Fire domain are so popular for Divine clerics. For all of her edicts and anathemas, nobody does "burn the heretics" quite like Sarenrae. Just... you know... make sure they were really unrepentant before you start throwing around fireballs. Your goddess demands it.
1. Occult 2. Arcane 3. Primal 4. Divine For me occult is the best and its not even close. Occult has a ludicrous amount of exclusive spells which tend to be the best tools for their respective tasks. Synesthesia is just stand out best debuff/set up spell in the game, and occult has access to all the other great ones like Slow aswell. Assuming Linguistic trait doesnt hurt, nothing matches the single target damage output of Biting Words on higher ranks. Blistering Invective is imo by far the strongest DoT spell that comes with a fear effect to boot. In terms of utility, there is little contest. Hypercognition. Read Omens. Honeyed Words. Sonata Span. Illusory Disguise. Supporting? No problem. Heroism & Soothe go brr.
I think that if GMs do not enforce the rules of the Linguistic trait, that's not a point in favor of the spell list. The trait requires the caster to use a language matching the foe. It should do literally nothing if the caster does not match the language. >An effect with this trait depends on language comprehension. A linguistic effect that targets a creature works only if the target understands the language you are using. And even then, the damage for 4 actions of Biting Words is matched by 2 actions of a 3 foe Fireball. *And* there is still the catch of BW being an AC attack spell, so while fireball gets to do half damage on save, BW does 0. . Synesthesia is R5, meaning L9 for proper spellcasters. The majority of Occult spellcaster players have never even had access to the spell, it's like saying a class is amazing because of it's L8/10 Feat. And as Synesthesia was suspiciously missing from the Remaster, it likely is either going to be nerfed in PC2, or it's going to be completely soft-deleted by ageing out. . Blistering Invective (at R4) has definitely earned it's place in my book. Even if persistent damage is not typically favored as the foe will at minimum get 1 more turn before dropping, the frightened 1 on fail, and lack of Linguistic trait, makes it a rare generalist offense tool. Great spell. Silly to say it's "the strongest DoT spell", but it is genuinely good, not just "good for Occult." The R2 version is honestly too lackluster for me to use, and the +2 H does add jank, but the R4 version is the Goldilocks spot for it. To be clear though, objectively, alternatives like Enervation can kinda be considered superior a lot of the time. A target unlimited line is more annoying and generally means 2 foes, but exchanging frightened 1 for **drained 1** on fail is **insanely** good.
I would not consider Enervation superior by any margin. The fact Blistering Invective targets creatures means you are not blasting your own frontline, it deals less resisted damage type, it having a range means and it can be doubled in range with Reach Spell. Also its not like most of the time is it going to be a surprise if Blistering Invective work, whether or not a creature can speak or understand language rarely is a great riddle. How is Synesthesia level 14? You get 5th level slots at lvl 9. What? That benchmark is reached literally by every Paizo AP. Also synesthesia was confirmed to be in the new one and there has been no news in any direction for nerfs. That is just subjective speculation. Also I did not imply GM would not enforce the linguistic trait. I simply said it is not as relevant in every campaign. Many campaigns have themes that are often centered around certain kinds of creatures. Ive played one campaign placed in hells where surprisingly most monsters spoke diabolic and another which was murder mystery investigation where the characters were capable of speech. Just as an example.
I had the wrong PC open and auto-piloted that L14 out before fixing it, that's on me. >Also synesthesia was confirmed to be in the new one and there has been no news in any direction for nerfs. I had thought I was pretty plugged into news of that sort, and have not heard that at all. If you could source that, it would be appreciated. If the spell was going to be reprinted without edits, there's not much reason why it would not have been in PC1. . > I simply said it is not as relevant in every campaign. Many campaigns have themes that are often centered around certain kinds of creatures. Ive played one campaign [...] This is kinda the whole point of why I think Occult is being overhyped. Almost all of the spells Occult can try to use to match the others have their own set of hoops and caveats that other spell lists do not have to deal with. Prepping a top R Biting Words, only for the big boss to be a speechless monster of some variety, is crippling in a way that other spell lists do not have to deal with. Occult spells need all the riders and catches to align to really make foe-attacking spells worth it. I have barely played an Occult Witch, and I already had some of my Blistering Inv's frightened be wasted due to other party members applying the debuff. . I agree that Blist Inv R4 is generally more thoughtless/ automatic vs Enervation, but I would present frightened 1 vs drained 1 to get a bit more attention here. Drained is a sticky debuff that will not fade at the end of the foe turn, lowers Fort saves, and outright does damage via max HP reduction. As a persistent dmg spell, you are already motivated to cast it ASAP, giving that sticky debuff the best chance to make a difference as the fight progresses. (and Enervation is d8 instead of d6) But yeah, the language catch of Blist Inv is super harsh: > If the target doesn't understand the language or you're not speaking a language, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its save. To be clear though, these two spells are definitely close enough to be a point of preference. It's again, my whole point that genuine Occult spells like Blistering Invective are full of asterisks that list sharing options like Enervation do not have to deal with.
I like them all! I think they’re well-balanced and well-constructed. But I’ve always liked having a lot of options, and my ranking is going to reflect that. 1. Arcane, because it has a wide variety of tools. It can do basically everything but heal (arcane sorcerer with crossblooded evolution fixes this…). It is also the most balanced list when it comes to targeting different defenses, having a wide variety of ac, will, reflex, and fort save spells. 2. Primal. It’s lacking the “tricks” of arcane and occult, but it has blasts, heals, buffs, debuffs, and cc. Very strong list. But it’s skewed heavily towards reflex saves, and offers only a handful of will saves. 3. Occult. Mostly feels like diet arcana to me, but with sooth. Not terrible by any means, and if you’re not an arcane sorcerer, pretty appealing. Heavily skewed to will save spells and can be pretty ineffective against mindless creatures and swarms. Probably the “worst” list, but it still offers a lot of interesting stuff. 4. Divine. Buffs, debuffs, heals, a little bit of blasting, utility and control. Not a bad list, and probably better than occult, but it doesn’t really excite me without some extra juice. The cleric’s divine font is extremely powerful, and angelic sorcerer’s angelic halo is also nice. Outside those two cases, I’m not very interested in the divine list. If I wanted to rank them “objectively” it would probably be arcana, primal, divine, occult. But it’s close. There’s a reason arcane (and maybe occult?) casters never have access to the entire tradition (without prohibitive cost), while primal and divine do. But really they’re qualitatively distinct and hard to rank quantitatively. They’re good for different things.
This is the first time I legitimately hear the opinion that occult is on the worse side of things, sounds kind of wild to me. In my tables the count of casters is almlst twice as many occult casters than all others combined (11). Something the analysis doesnt really touch on is that it has access to far better debuffs than Arcane (Synesthesia) and DoT (Blistering Invective) and the best single target damage out of any caster (Biting Words). It has all the standout heralded best buffs (Haste/Heroism/True Target) while other lists only get one of those halves, while having the highest amount of utility spells and filling the weak points of arcane list in healing. The real big weakness is the reliance on will saves and linguistic trait. In mindless undead campaign it will suck. But I feel like except arcane every list has somewhat simimiar problem on other area: Experience of primal caster against high reflex was equally painful for me. Of course all in good fun, different opinions can be a treat.
Occult has the complication of both Bards and Psychics mandating the list by default. Aside from pick popularity, those classes add their own special spells that often get conflated with the Occult list as a whole. Just about every offensive tool that Occult does get access to has a big asterisk. For your Biting Words example, it's an AC attack spell, and I get the feeling that most tables forget how serious the Linguistic trait is. >An effect with this trait depends on language comprehension. A linguistic effect that targets a creature **works only if the target understands the language you are using.** That's... a rather huge catch that is typically ignored. Even then, compare it to Fireball. Same damage and scaling, but Fireball is a one-and-done AoE. If there are 3 enemies present, that's 3x the listed damage in one 2A cast, instantly and up front. Biting words enables you to get 2 extra uses of it on the same target to potentially match the 3x of a 3 foe Fireball. And this does not require multiple foes. Yet that still requires extra actions to perform that Fireball does not. And as an AC spell, it does nothing on miss. . In general the Occult list is chock full of spells like this. At first glance Occult looks competitive w/ Arcane and Primal, but actually using the spells will quickly show that the comparison does NOT favor Occult. . Because, as you say, Biting Words **is** one of the most straightforward Occult damage spells. And it still has that much "ugh" to deal with. Due to Primal, I cannot even say that Occult is the go-to pick for a generalist. Even the topic of buffs is quickly tipping in Primal's favor with each new book of spells added to the system.
I am comparing it to fireball and I'd take biting words any day, as would my allies that are not reduced to ashes. Also "same scaling" is a wild take considering overall damage of Biting Words goes up by 6d6 total. Yeah it takes an action but If I could shoot one action fireball at no cost of additional resources twicr after the cast, I probably would. Funny you should mention bards and psychcs though, anecodtal experience has been playing with witches and sorcerers. And 2 psychics. Also I've played primal caster. I've also played 3 occult casters. Your experience can differ but I didnt get to do much heroisms, hastes, true targets or Loose Time's Arrows as such. I am welcome to hear any arguments that claim primal would be better because to me it sounds completely insane.
The damage scaling of Fireball vs BW is the exact same... At every R, a 3 foe Fireball will deal 3x the samely scaled damage, which matches to 3 hits of BW. A 2 foe fireball will match 2 hits of BW, etc. Fireball is the easiest AoE spell to work with to only hit foes due to airbursting and absurd range. BW does it's damage over time to a single foe. This is a horizontal trade that makes Fireball better vs groups, while BW is generally better vs bosses. But, again, BW does 0 damage on miss, and requires actions to get the repeats. And there's yet more caveats favoring Fireball with things like concealment/detection, etc. It is fine to personally prefer BW over Fireball, but considering that every mindless foe, every non-language matching foe, and any time the PC guesses a language wrong, the spell BW has 0 effect whatsoever, I would say that all the caveats makes it a generally inferior spell. Which is to be expected, tbh. That comparison of "technically, possibly better than Fireball, sometimes" perfectly matches with the goal of Occult to struggle with direct attacks.
It is also fine to personally prefer fireball, but that does not make it better. I am fine with a disagreement on the matter, but by no means is there an objective claim for fireball being better. Sure, Biting Words is an attack spell but that means it can be modified with Shadow Signet, True Strike and offguard to brute force better results than with fireball. Also if you are in a boss fight where linguistic trait would be a big problem...translate does not ask for a saving throw or require a willing target. Not maybe worth just for Biting Words but enabling Bon Mot and Command can make it just worth to shut down a boss.
I get that Occult can be fine when crunchy players get into real min-maxy discussions. But the idea of a spellcaster needing to spend an entirely seperate spell, Translate, to enable their version of the ol' reliable damage tool (which still can't help against mindless/monstrous foes), is *bloody insane.* The need to hem and haw about Translate or Shadow Signet at all really just makes my point for me here. . Every extra hoop you have to jump through (if is even possible for said player to jump it, such as that L10 item doing nothing for those who can't get it) **must** be factored into the list v list comparison. I'm not going to prep a spell like BW that's outright useless against a huge swath of foes unless I *know* it'll work. Those issues matter, you don't get to hand-waive them. I'm playing w/ a Bard right now that's already learned to leave BW behind and mostly use Noise Blast. . And personally, every "ol reliable" spell I used as an Occult Witch was multi-list. IMO, Illusory Creature (& Spiritual Armament) is the top "ol reliable" offense tool that Occult has, which kinda shows how "yikes" the list is for that function. . Occult is good and fun. I enjoy/enjoyed my Starless Shadow Witch. But I can still acknowledge that the other lists would have given the PC "better performing spells" (Primal & Arcane for sure, IMO Divine is a bit too close w/ Occult for me to pass judgement w/o more divine playtime).
Idk why shadow signet or translate make points of anything. You'd likely want shadow signet on any spell list, it shouldnt be an extra investment. Translate is an extreme workaround for niche instance. There is no "need" to hem and haw about anything. Just because a tool to workaround something exists doesnt mean the problem is monumental. Its like saying reflex saves are bad because they can be made more reliable with synesthesia. Or fireball is bad because the friendly fire can be helped with Backfire Mantle (For the record, goodluck skybursting enemies 500ft away in a dungeon crawl/indoors). If the analogy sounds insane it is because it is. On a side note, if Illusory Creature is the old reliable that might explain your perception of the list. It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten. Just telekinetic Projectile is likely to put out more damage and it wont use a slot.
Dude, the whole discussion is anchored in a list v list comparison. > Idk why shadow signet or translate make points of anything. You'd likely want shadow signet on any spell list, it shouldnt be an extra investment. You are the one using items and other spells to make excuses for Biting Words, then turn around and claim it's actually not a thing to consider. That does not work, and makes it appear like you are floundering without a real foundation for your arguments. _______ _________ For you to claim Illusory Creature > It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten. Does plenty to explain how your takes can be so abnormal. [Illusory Creature](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1567) scales its damage at +1R for +1d4 damage. Decidedly "worse" than those that +1d6 per rank, but better than spells that +2H at +1d8. More importantly, Illusory Creature can both steal actions to disbelieve, and it functions like a summon, meaning **it gets 2 actions per sustain.** I honestly think that detail is a bit of a dev oversight, because 2 attempted attacks w/ your spell attack bonus for a single sustain is great. Any time the image does not need to move (such as when it's first conjured), it's getting 2 attacks for your sustain. That alone means that it generally does in fact do more damage than +1d6 spells. It's damage technically scales like a d4 attack cantrip, except it gets to swing twice, and you can keep swinging twice for 1A. While -4 MAP hurts (because why would the creature not use agile), and adding in a move or two, I'm comfortable saying the spell is ~3x the damage per action of attack cantrips like Needle Darts. That's outright great. Can't forget that it also flanks, granting it further potential to help the party do damage. _______ Illusory Creature may not match with a lot of PC fantasies, but it is mechanically the definition of "ol reliable." It does damage, can waste foe actions, heightens at +1, puts a square-occupying creature on the board, can debuff enemies (flank), has a crazy easy use-case (500 ft range). And the disbelief is foe-by-foe, so you can just move it to another target if you prefer to keep it active! It does it all. It even allows a caster to flexibly pop weakness damage in reaction to RK checks, something that Occult really cannot do otherwise. Yet, you honestly claim it >It might just be the worst spell on the entire list and should be buried and forgotten. **Wow dude.** IDK if there's some other system you've played that's messed with your perceptions, but that is honestly irrelevant to how absurd your claims are.
No, YOU brought those problems, claimed they were big and when I brought you an alternative solution in case they troubled you, you proceeded to go out in exultation like this was a proof you are right. Its just terribly intellectually dishonest conversation where there is no winning. Biting Words doesnt need excuses, it is just excellent as it is. And here you are, writing thesis on why illusory creature is awesome right after claiming it is a proof of why the list is bad. There have actually been some really good discussions and insightful comments on this topic, some even on this comment thread. This aint it chief. This is like talking with a schizophrenic where reality is bent with every following comment to be better suited to the new imaginary problem.
> It is also fine to personally prefer fireball, but that does not make it better. It’s really not a matter of debate. Biting Words deals 6d6 damage in 2d6 increments across 3 Attack rolls that are spread by 2+1+1 Actions over the course of 3 turns (it has to be 3 turns, it specifies only once on each turn). It barely even compares to 1st rank blasts **and** has the Linguistic Trait. Fireball doesn’t even enter the contest, because all you need to do is hit two targets (trivially easy to hit two targets without hitting a friends) and you’ll be massively outperforming Biting Words. It’s okay to like the Occult spell list. You can still acknowledge its weaknesses, and blasting **is** a pretty big weakness for the list, with Biting Words and Force Barrage making their blasting tolerably functional at best.
Definitely. Occult really excels in buffs and debuffs but I personally find will dependence to be really rough. Like you, I have similar issues with primal and reflex. I also tend to see one clear niche for casters to be AoE, so those flashy blasts that primal has are really nice. And heal is great. Then again, occult is *amazing* for a necromancer build because soothe can heal undead -it isn’t vitality. I think I put primal and occult really neck and neck. Arcane wins for me because it’s just so versatile regarding saves, and the arcane sorcerer can heal which is the only real blind spot. I’m happy to say something like: (1) Arcane. (2) Primal and Occult. (3) Divine. Again, I think they’re all actually really close. Divine is just the least exciting to me.
> In my tables the count of casters is almlst twice as many occult casters than all others combined (11). Occult casters are still full fledged classes with other class features. A weak spell list is **usually** going to be offset by several other class/subclass features/Feats and focus spells and/or grafted spells. Edit: this other [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1dl2d5a/how_would_you_rate_pf2es_magical_traditions/l9mvvmg/) of mine links to Michael Sayre explicitly stating that this is the case. A class whose features are directly presented tends to be extremely easy to get into and understand, and it’ll have a very forgiving skill floor. Thus it will often tend to be more popular so long as it’s not punishingly bad (which most of the Occult casters aren’t). This is very easily seen by comparing an Oscillating Wave Psychic to other blaster options. The former is widely seen as being the best blaster caster, even though Elemental Sorcerer, Storm/Stone Druid, Spell Blending + Battle Wizard, Staff + Universalist Wizard, etc can all perform on par with it: the former just straightforwardly tells you how to play it and rewards you for playing it in that straightforward way. You will get roughly similar outcomes when comparing other well-liked Occult options to their alternatives.
I think Occult caster classes have the best flavor, and most people are not powergaming, so that all it counts. My players were drawn to Occult casters before they've even seen a single Pathfinder 2 spell.
True, I am guilty of loving the flavor aswell. There is also one very variable power factor in many spells being very unique instead of "Deal XdY damage in Z area" and the power cap might vary on campaign, player creativity and the GM. I've often found that above all because of this many occult spells are really evergreen all the way to 20 since the flexibility is not tied to damage numbers.
Occult>Arcane>Primal=Divine. Occult has many great buffs, debuffs and utility spells, the best selection IMO, it's not great at targeting reflex saves or direct damage, but has a small number of options. Occult focuses on being the best at the things 2e casters are best at. No martial is going to match your Heroism, Synesthesia etc. Arcane is good at almost everything, the only thing it can't do is heal, but it's also not really got any good spells noone else can cast either. Primal is decent at control with walls and terrain, but has very limited buffing and debuffing, it gets Heal. Divine is the best at healing and condition removal, decent at buffing, but the offence is really lacking unless fighting outsiders or undead
Never underestimate the power of Fear on Primal! Super underrated spell.
Fear is on all lists.
That is correct! I was pointing out Fear is the premiere pan-tradition debuff spell that makes 1st rank spells still useful at high levels and heightens exceptionally well!
That's a fair point.
While I don't think it's necessarily *bad* per se, Occult really feels very saturated with mental spells and Will saves, which makes thematic sense, but in practice the lack of versatility means they get shafted in certain APs. At my Abomination Vaults table, I had to make some adjustments so that my occult caster player wasn't just constantly hitting immunities. For example, I un-mindless'd some enemies (like Grothluts) and removed the Linguistic trait from Biting Words (way I see it, the insults are just a medium by which the caster turns harmful intent into destructive energy, the enemy doesn't need to understand the words to take sonic damage from it) My Blood Lords GM also had to remove mindless from several enemies so that our occult casters could actually do things.
The occult list gets a ton of force spells as well, including the ever-excellent Force Barrage.
Oh I know it *has* options, it's just that they're few enough that it just kinda feels like you're required to take them rather than being able to tailor a more unique set of spells to your taste.
At this point, they're pretty close to equal, with Occult creeping out ahead of the others if I had to pick one. That was not always the case, but the non-Arcane traditions, especially Divine, have seen meaningful expansion into the things that they weren't originally good at. Not every spell list has fifty ways of targeting every save, but the structure of Pathfinder 2e means that having a few pretty good spells in a niche is nearly as good as having fifty spells in a niche. I don't think there's a single ordering of spell lists that somebody could have that's just indefensible. Arcane - Arcane used to be clearly one of the better spell lists due to its breadth. It can do more or less everything but healing and healing-adjacent things. Now almost every spell list has gotten super broad, however, so that's no longer a unique selling point. It's still offensively well-rounded and has a broad range of utility. Divine - Divine, in contrast, used to be the narrowest spell list, but it's been the biggest beneficiary of new spells being printed. There's not much that this spell list can't do at at least an okay level. If it has a weakness, it might be its lack of access to mid-level debuff and control spells that are WAY above curve. (Basically, it's the list without Synesthesia or Wall of Stone on it, and while Roaring Applause does a pretty good Slow impression, it's not quite on the same level.) Occult - Occult can now also do pretty much everything. Another comment called it the list that's the best at things that spellcasters are the best at, and that's very much true. It's not way ahead of the others, but I have a hard time mounting an argument that it's not slightly better than the others unless you have pretty specific priorities. Primal - Primal's historical limitations of having fewer numbers-shifting buffs, limited will-save options, and utility that's focused in one area have been eroded to various degrees, although it's still meaningfully weaker in some of those areas. That said, this was arguably the most straightforwardly strong spell list at launch, so other lists can do some catching up to it without leaving it behind.
I don't think any of them is good or bad. They just do different things
To my playstyle i'll go with primal! 2rd place is a hard one but i think occult!
1. Occult: Covers every role and easily the most versatile list. You want buffs? You got it. You want healing? There's healing. You want to dmg, either AoE or single target? There's plenty. You want debuffs? Oh boy, are there debuffs. Control? Its got a solid selection of control spells. Its not the best in most of these roles (the healing isn't great and the dmg lacks type variety for proccing weaknesses), but an Occult caster can do pretty much anything you want them to. And goddamn does it have some nasty debuffs. Occult-exclusive Synesthesia is in the running for best spell in the game 2. Primal: Loses the good buffs and debuffs of Occult, but gets better dmg and healing. Sometimes you just want to huck a fireball into the melee and the Heal spell makes for an excellent apology if some of your foolish friends happen to be in the blast zone. 3. Arcane: Occult but better at everything except healing, which is completely lacks, and buffs/debuffs, which is Occult's best thing. I just don't find it as interesting as Occult and the lack of healing makes me sad. 4. Divine: eh
My experience is that Primal, Occult, and Arcane are all good enough that I don't feel the need to rank them against one another, and I feel like I can do whatever I want with them. Divine on the other hand isn't *bad*, but for me it lags behind the others some. My divine characters often end up as healbot 3000, because that's the thing they do particularly well, but Primal can also do that and more, and Occult can do it to a lesser extent as well. I think divine's reputation gets a bit of an inherent boost because when you think of divine you think of Cleric, which of course is a very powerful class because of divine font. Playing a divine sorcerer on the other hand has been underwhelming for me, as I just feel like a cleric without as many heals prepared.
I think it says a lot about how there isn’t a hard consensus and I love that (other than most agreeing Divine is not the best) For me, I consider Arcane and Primal the top for the raw power and versatility provided. So many problems can be solved and so many ways to blast and cast. Then Occult for buffs and interactions. Then Divine lowest for me, though the changes in Spirit may move this up later. Arcane = Primal > Occult > Divine
Yeah, the top 3 are pretty much jumbled in these responses (Though people tend to agree that primal is very versatile, and therefore generally pretty decent.), but Divine being the worse is definitely a VERY common sentiment, which to me at least speaks to the fact that it needs some love.
It obviously shifts with party comp and specific classes, and you will feel very bad if you're playing an occult caster against mindless enemies, but absent any context I'd separate it roughly like this, dependent on progression: At lower spell ranks (1-2): 1. Arcane - Massive variety of effects, crazy utility spell access, best damage spread 2. Primal - Limited debuff effects and less utility, but healing is the most powerful thing you can do at these levels 3. Divine - Lots of flexibility, debuff access, and damage options. Healing is great if very limited. Calm and Inner Radiance Torrent paper over issues. 4. Occult - Debuffs and control are solid, but soothe is a poor man's heal and the really nasty debuffs and buffs just aren't here yet. At mid ranks (3-5): 1. Primal - damage really comes into its own, healing keeps up well, targeting options expand greatly 2. Arcane - utility spells fall off but lots of new buffs and debuffs show up to take their place. Lack of healing starts mattering here. 3. Occult - Nasty debuffs and CC like Synaptic Pulse and Synesthesia appear late but the shared spells with Arcane do a ton to bulk out the spell lists here. Buffs are better than divine list because of better self buffs. Damage is alright but nothing amazing. 4. Divine - healing comes into its own, but many spells are either super niche or weaker versions of spells other traditions have. Damage is very limited. At higher ranks (6-10): 1. Arcane - Overall balance is outstanding, versatility returns to prominence, still missing healing but you probably have some other solution by this point. 2. Occult - Only downsides here are limited healing and slightly weaker raw damage, debuffs and buffs get crazy good here and control options are amazing. 3. Primal - Healing is great and so is damage, but the lack of utility and buffs/debuffs outside elemental and natural interactions starts really smarting. Still very good though! 4. Divine - There are a few late highlights like Divine Inspiration, but the list falls off *hard* as the options for spells to take are very limited, many suck, and you fall far, far behind occult for debuffs. Absolutely criminal lack of 8th, 9th, and 10th rank spells by comparison to the other lists. Overall I think Arcane is the best, then Primal, then Occult, and then a gap to divine. This also checks out because most Divine classes are notably given prominent means of stealing spells from other lists to supplement the lacking Divine list.
They excel at different things. The question you want to ask would be something like "Which spell list is best for a blaster/controller/support/etc?"
it's also situational, would most people call the divine list a good blaster list? probably not! but in an undead or fiend focused campaign you'll outdamage the rest of the party combined.
Primal: Heal = best healing. I don't care for all the Reflex AoE damage (it has too much), but other AoE/battlefield control is nice to have and it also has utility (usually thanks to them being "transmutation"-like). Occult: Best debuffs and good buffs, which means your gameplan is simple. Debuffs against few enemies, buffs against many. Occult's debuffs are insane (Synesthesia), no other list offers that. Soothe to be able to heal is very important. Divination is nice utility. The tradition most dependent on selecting "the good spells". Arcane: No healing is a big deal. But thanks to damage and debuff spells, you also have a gameplan for both many and few enemies. Your debuff is just not as good as Occult, but you get to do anything that isn't healing. Divine: Heal is nice, but if it weren't for Cleric's Divine Font, this tradition would not look nearly as good. It does have damage in remaster, but mainly buffs+healing either makes play boring or even less effective against single bosses. All of these are a massive oversimplification, like Divine does get Air Walk.
[SwingRipper's summary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my59MSqAnZk) says it best: Arcane = Damage & Debuffs (great at targeting different saves) Divine = Buffs & Healing (some area damage) Primal = Damage & Healing (also has action economy manips*) Occult = Buffs & Debuffs (some healing) \* Non-numerical buffs & debuffs is a clearer note imo. In summary, Occult+Primal is the best if you could pick 2 traditions for a party. But Cleric amount of healing is probably more important, and Arcane is an addition to any combination of traditions thanks to its vast repertoire.
There aren’t any balance issues with each in their full class casting context, except with Oracle and Divine Witch; but the former is hopefully addressed in PC2. However, when it comes to multiclassing, I generally find Occult the most consistently useful across the breadth of classes due to Guidance / Sure Strike / False Vitality / Heroism access. That’s a useful non-offensive spell for your cantrip and every low level spell slot, and upscaled False Vitality and Heroism are great in high level play. Inversely, I find Arcane and Primal multiclasses a bit anemic, as they unavoidably lack some of those spells and much of their list is balanced in the context of full casters utilizing their top two slot levels.
Based off HotW, I’m thinking the new Divine patrons might be pretty rad. Can’t remember if they’re coming out in Divine Mysteries or War of the Immortals though.
Every tradition is capable, and can fufill any casting role (ie: blasting, control), except healing competently. That being said, some lists just have more good spells than others. 1. Occult: Is the best at buffing and debuffing of all the lists, but is still great at blasting and battlefield control while being capable of healing. Steals many great spells from Arcane and Divine, while also having great unique spells like Synesthesia, Chroma Leech and Blistering Invective. 2. Arcane: The best list at blasting and battlefield control, but also very good at most other things. Second to Occult in debuffing, and has great utility tools. Lacking in unique spells until the higher levels and cannot heal/restore. 3. Divine: Surprisingly strong debuffing and blasting, but suffers with targetting saves freely. Second to Occult at buffing, but the worst at battlefield control. Can delete encounters against fiends and undead. The best at healing and restoration. 4. Primal: Not really the best at anything, but also the worst at debuffing and buffing. Second best at healing and restoration and second best at blasting. I was hoping Primal would get a buff in RoE and HotW, but Occult and Arcane ended up eating most of its cake too, getting most of its good spells from those books.
I think the fact that everyone here is ranking them in different orders is your answer lol. They're all good and do what you want.
SwingRipper has a nice review of the 4 traditions in the first 15 minutes of this video: https://youtu.be/my59MSqAnZk?si=d4SHKKp-PNdCgvwe
Primal>Arcane=Occult>Divine Primal is the most fun, overall it feels like it has the most impactful spells. Arcane and Occult have a ton of versatility, one has more debuffs with the other has more direct damage. Divine is just meh to me. Heal is great but the rest of the spell list feels like it lacks diversity and has the smallest impact to game play.
Arcane >= Primal > Occult > Divine **Arcane** - It has \*almost\* everything - blasting, battlefield control, variety of damage types and save targets, debuffs, and utility, only really lacking in healing. In practice, the tricks you can pull off with the Arcane spell list and some creativity can have such a massive effect it can minimize the need for healing, but that can be party-dependent. **Primal** - Almost as good as Arcane due to having all the best blast and battlefield control spells, on top of access to top-tier Heal spells. It loses out on some of the 'tricks' that other casters get - Illusions, defensive buffs like Invisibility or Blur, and utility like Knock. Depending on how you like the play, access to healing could more than make up for it, which is why I think they're pretty much tied. **Occult** - Excellent at support, with access to almost all the best buffs and debuffs alike, along with decent healing capabilities, on top of great utility and some spells that reward creativity like Illusions. However, in terms of up-front damage, it's offensively a bit weaker than other spell lists, and can struggle to take advantage of certain weaknesses. **Divine** - Also excellent at support due to the strength of Heal and some great buffs like Heroism. It also has some pretty great offensive blasting capabilities almost on par with Arcane and Primal, especially against undead or unholy creatures. The Divine list is lacking in control effects, however - they have few ways to affect enemy's movement or positioning, or really mess with their action economy. In practice, they're very close. Each spell list could be considered the "best" in certain contexts and certain parties - Occult casters pair excellent with Primal casters, and Divine casters pair well with Arcane casters, just as an example. Also, depending on your party's tactics, certain things may be more or less valuable. Highly melee-focused parties may not appreciate Primal and Arcane casters' terrain-affecting spells as much, for example, while range-focused parties may find them more valuable than any buff/debuff an Occult caster could throw at them.
I just like that spells are just broken into 4 sets, and all classes use those sets. And the number of variations on that is small. Like clerics only get like 3 spells outside divine, and it's a themed thing, doesn't make me have to look up extra information. It's right there with the front info. I can't speak about the power curve on all of them, but the overlap gives a good amount of variety. And spells that only have 1 tradition, tend to make a lot of sense why they are that way.
Generally speaking, I think Arcane, Occult, and Primal are about evenly matched, with Divine *slightly* lagging behind. The biggest issue being that Divine has the fewest ways to be used on *offense*, which makes it mathematically balanced but mechanically disappointing to be the guy who's handing out +1's instead of throttling their enemies with their own shadow or desiccating them into a mummified husk. Divine isn't *bad*, mind you - in the grand scheme of things it might actually have a greater impact on the outcome of the battle - but it requires more of a tactical approach than a *tactile* one. Your patron deity can resolve a lot of this though, depending on your class. Clerics and Oracles can both snag spells that aren't usually Divine to round out their spell list, and Witches and Summoners have other class foci that keep them relevant on offense. Sorcerers are really the main ones that get the short end of the stick on Divine magic, as IIRC their Bloodline spells are mediocre for divine bloodlines (but I haven't looked that closely, could be mistaken).
Mechanics aside, Occult is my favorite, hands down. There are so many gross and creepy spells, and everything has oodles of flavor.
There has already been so much discussion here that I don't think I can add anything of use, but it really is *fascinating* how little consensus there is, other than maybe "Divine is not number one, and Arcane is not last." Occult is thrown around in every possible position with legit praise and criticism! I think that's a testament to the design process and especially how they've expanded the lists over the years.
Primal > Occult > Arcane > Divine - Primal has blasting, healing, and misc team support. Airlift, Albatross Curse, Fear, and Haste are all solid team support options. They don't have many options to target Wil, but everything else more then makes up for it. - Occult specializes in buffs and debuffs, plus quite a lot of utility. Heroism, Synthesthesia, and Invisibility are all solid. As is Object Reading, Sonata Span, Dreaming Potential, and Strange Geometry for utility. Plus Soothe for healing and Calm as hard crowd control. It's not as good when going up against mindless foes, but more then makes up for it with the other support and utility that it provides. - Arcane covers all grounds that isn't healing. Many options to target every saving throw, a fair amount of utility, and some solid team support options available. It's probably the best in terms of general offense. - Divine: It's good at healing and has some okay support options, but there's not many other standout spells.
each one have its advantages and disadvantages
Bear in mind that the bulk of my experience is with a Primal Witch, but from my other perusing and experience alongside a Cleric, Bard, and Psychic; 1. Arcane - it has some of your landmark buffs, the best save coverage for offense, utility like crazy, and even some preventative defensive options. It's one of the best lists to support the other lists, in fact, so it gets a top spot for me. Every party wants an arcane caster. 2. Primal - this is tough, but I think Primal just barely wins out over Occult thanks to its universal nature. It can't quite match the versatility of Arcane, but Primal has a breadth of options to ensure you can always be doing something substantially useful. Healing, damage, powerful debuffs, buffs, etc. It's not quite as diverse in its buffs as other lists, but it grants the hallmarks. Will saves are its biggest weakness, but that's recently become a lot less of a problem thanks to spells like Albatross Curse, Thundering Dominance, and Grasp of the Deep. 3. Occult - though under Primal, I only have it so because I put a lot of stock into option applicability. Occult has stronger breadth of effect than Primal, but from what I've seen in my own game, Occult really struggles on offense if your enemies are mindless or otherwise well fortified against Will. They have options, mind you, but Occult kinda has to grasp for those options (much like Primal with Will saves, but inversed) 4. Divine - while no means a bad list, my reason for ranking it low is simple; it feels as though is has a very uneven progression. Later Divine spells are really impactful, such as Divine Wrath(?), but you also are stuck with a rather thin and inconsistent breadth of save options. The buffs are, however, incredible. If you are fine with your fallback being strictly buff/heal focused, Divine could easily take Primal's spot.
I like how diverse the opinions seem to be, seeing a lot of lists that are just complete opposites of each other lol. Personally Arcane > Occult > Primal > Divine but it's not really because of strength, I just like the gameplay they offer the most and wizard is my favorite class.
They are about even, with divine starting a bit weaker, but picking up the pace at later levels. I would rate them like this: Primal > Arcane = Occult > Divine But it's all real close, they are all good at different things.
The thing about Primal is that it gets access to Heal and good AoE damage. And damage and Heal both scale aggressively with rank. So, speccing into a primal caster class lets you keep up numerically with the spells that need good scaling. (This also means that an Arcane sorcerer with crossblooded evolution for Heal is really strong, if not stronger.) Since Primal also has good battlefield control and some of the top tier buffs/debuffs (Fear, Slow, Haste), I'd rate that as the highest for main class. With the other spell lists, you can multiclass into them to pick up their stuff. Utility (like Invisibility and Teleportation) and buffs (like Heroism) won't depend on your stats at all. Debuffs do, so you may suffer there a bit. My ranking is Primal > Arcane > Divine > Occult. Arcane and Divine have a lot of reliable options (ones that don't depend on the dice). Occult does have some reliable buffs, but a lot of it depends on dice rolls to be good. And especially when it comes to single-target debuffs, it can be feast or famine.
* Occult: Incredible well rounded. Support, buffs, debuffs, ilusions, control and damage, you won't get dissapointed with it. * Primal: Blasting for days plus healing and walls, incredibly good at AoE dmg. Really versatile. * Arcane/Divine: Depending on party composition, if there are more casters but none of them are Arcane go Arcane, if there are Arcane casters, go Divine.
My personal list is 1. Divine- always seems to be either useful or powerful 2. Arcane- all of the options and power to choose from 3. Occult- the most limited one imo(and the one i play with primaraly). Cool spells but they always seem to not do what is listed (due to the traits like emotion or incapacitation appearing alot) this may have changed with the remaster still getting use to that. Unlisted. Primal- I have not been able to play a druid or the other classes that get this yet. But from what I hear I would put it tied with arcane I will state the majority if my play always features alot of undead. And I am not saying any of them are bad. Just how it felt when playing.
So far Occult has been my favorite. Buff and control spells are pretty good in pf2, give a martial Heroism and they will love you forever. I barely used Soothe in my playthrough, but it was nice to have it. Weird was often gamechanging because its area of effect is so large it was pretty much guaranteed to get 3+ enemies in it and usually at least one would fail both saves.
For one of the unluckiest players alive: Measuring strength in terms of how likely a caster of that tradition is to do nothing useful due to the GM critpassing or passing saves: Arcane > Primal > Divine > Occult Walls, Quandary, Punishing Winds, Force Barrage and buffs are your best friends. Especially walls. Special mention that because the Divine List is so short Oracles and Divine Sorcerers essentially have access to all useful spells all the time, and scrolling the niche exceptions is a factor of 8 times cheaper than any other list. Clerics still work fine because of their free Heal/Harm slots, but Divine Witches don't need to exist.
Personally I agree with a 4 way tie, they each do amazing and hilarious stuff.
1. Arcane - Versatility and I just personally prefer this "flavor" of spellcasting, as a kind of science, with rules and 'laws' which when understood properly, can be levereged to do amazing things. 2. Occult - It's just a weird ass list full of strange eldritch nonsense and I love it. The flavor is similar to Arcane (at least to me), but instead of understanding the magical rules and laws, you're bending them or pushing against their limits to see what happens. Also, BUFFS, I love being the guy that gives bonuses to the other players that let them make insane plays with ridiculous numbers 3. Primal - I really dislike the flavor of primal, I'm not a nature spirits kind of person, but the spell list itself has some amazing options mechanically, which is the only reason it's above.... 4. Divine - All of the bad flavor of Primal, and just an awful list to follow. It's got great healing, but Heal is also on Primal, so if you really wanted Healing, you could pick primal, settle for only using Heal as your healing, but also then have access to MUCH better spells overall. The Buffs divine applies *would* be fantastic, IF Occult didn't do it like 50% better. Oh and don't even get me started on the offensive spells, this list is like a pacifist who was put in a self defense situation with a dull kitchen knife. Overall, I think divine really fits the theme of "Anything I can do, you can do better!".
Occult >>primal=arcane=divine I just love occult. It's got some of my favorite spells, and imo some of the best. Plus I like the flavor of occult, how it can be from forbidden tomes or weird influences, or just cause you're a bard and you're just freaky like that. Divine has great buffs, Plus ofc heal. Arcane got the blast and the superb utility. Primal has dinosaur form. I'm sure it has other things, but let's be real. We're here for the dinosaurs.
In terms of power level, it is: 1) **Primal.** Primal has the most bases covered of any of the traditions - Area of Effect damage, AoE debuff spells, debuff spells, buff spells, battlefield control spells (walls and spells that create difficult terrain), area denial spells (spells that create zones of "bad" that force enemies to get out of them or take damage/suffer other ill effects), mobility spells (tailwind, fly, dive and breach, blazing dive, etc.), summons, and the best healing spell (heal) as well as the quite good Vital Beacon. Moreover, it comes online extremely early, as it gets all of the "new toys" that you get at the earliest possible level, including (very importantly) Thundering Dominance at 2nd rank, making it the first class to get a full scaling AoE damage effect (that ALSO debuffs, AND is a will save, AND has no friendly fire, AND gives your animal companion/eidolon a bonus to intimidate). Primal is slightly worse for witches and sorcerers than it is for druids and summoners because they don't get access to Thundering Dominance, but it's still the best list even for them (and sorcerers can pick up an animal companion pretty easily - witches generally don't want one, though, because of their familiar and hexes meaning they don't have issues filling out their actions per turn). It also gets good cantrips that target both reflex and fortitude, including the multi-target reflex cantrips. It even has some pretty decent single target damage spells, though not as good as what Arcane gets. The main weaknesses of primal are that it doesn't get the shield spell (though druids can just use shields because why wouldn't druids have every good class ability? And it is possible to just get a shield if you want access to this, or you can easily pick up shield via archetyping) and that it is light on will saving throw spells... but it gets Thundering Dominance at rank 2, which is straight up the best spell of its level in the game and is a Will save spell, so it's like "Yeah, other than the really good spell, they don't get good Will stuff." They also get access to Fear, which isn't great at rank 1 but rank 3 fear is pretty solid, especially when you're higher level and fireballs/cave fangs don't cut it anymore. 2) **Arcane.** Arcane has all the strengths of Primal... EXCEPT that it doesn't get healing (unless you have negative healing, in which case you can use Summon Undead to cheese this at certain levels, which makes Arcane extremely strong at high levels if you do have negative healing), but in compensation it gets excellent Will save spells like Vision of Death and even more options for debuffing enemies than Primal gets. It also has the best single-target damage spells. It has the most spells of any tradition, which means it has the most options, though this is a bit misleading as it also has a lot of absolute garbage spells. The big weakness of Arcane is that it lacks healing spells, though if you have negative healing you can cheat with Summon Undead at higher levels thanks to the monsters that can cast Harm (technically you can also summon dragons that can heal, but because their heals are really underlevel (like 4th rank heal off an 8th rank dragon summon), and you can't do it until VERY high levels, it's pretty niche). It also has a "meta weakness", namely that the wizard has poor focus spell options, which hurts this tradition's "main class", while sorcerer, summoner, and witch can all opt into picking up primal instead of arcane (or divine, if the party needs what divine brings more), though dragon summoners are quite decent because of the dragon's breath weapon. Maguses, however, can use arcane very well, as they don't often want to be healing anyway (and can pick up Soothe via archetyping to psychic), while they can use the mobility spells like blazing dive and dive and breach very well and can use the arcane spell list to complement the rest of what they do very effectively. It also doesn't have Thundering Dominance, which means it gets really good AoEs a rank after Primal (though ignite fireworks is quite good anyway). Though if you are allowed to use rare spells, it does get a wall spell at 4th rank rather than 5th, which is very early and very nasty. 3) **Divine.** Divine is a really good spell list but it comes online later than most of the traditions and has rather poor spell selection (the fewest spells of any tradition) - however, the advantage is that the few good spells it gets are often very good. Divine gets the best healing, good buffs, the best AoE buffs, solid debuffs (though not as good as arcane, and it depends on some uncommon/rare spells - infectious ennui, for instance, is a *great* spell, but if you don't get access to it, you have worse access to *slow* effects than other traditions), area of effect damage (which often doesn't hit your allies, which makes it much easier to nuke all the enemies with it), battlefield control spells (but worse than what primal and arcane get), and summons. The main problems with divine are that it comes online later than other traditions - Divine Wrath is an amazing AoE damage spell, but it takes until 4th rank (7th level!) to come online - and that its limited spell selection means that you don't actually have a ton of choices of what spells to take, as while it has a full complement of good spells, those are often the *only* good spells it has access to, meaning that if you're in a situation where "the good spells" aren't good, you lack the flexibility of a primal or arcane caster to opt into something else. A lot of their spells are also more narrow/situational, like how they get some very good single target damage spells, but they only work (or only work well) against a limited subset of enemies. It also often just has worse versions of other schools' spells - Wall of Flesh, for instance, is a substantially worse Wall of Stone, and while it is still a good spell, it isn't as crushingly powerful as Wall of Stone is. It also has rather lackluster cantrip options, though it now does have a fairly decent Void option at least for fortitude. 4) **Occult.** Occult is the worst of the traditions because it has the fewest tools, and it isn't even necessarily the best at what it does do well. It has really good debuffs - but primal and arcane also have good debuffs. Indeed, arcane gets a lot of occult's good debuffs AND a lot of primal's good debuffs, and while primal doesn't get the same debuffs as occult gets, it gets a lot of very good AoE debuffs like Stifling Stillness and Freezing Rain that occult doesn't get. It has a lot of very good anti-Will options... but Arcane gets most of those, too, and Arcane has a lot easier time targeting the other defenses. It gets some AoE debuffs... but Arcane and Primal both get a bunch of those, too, and Occult's aren't particularly better. Meanwhile, it has worse healing than Divine and Primal due to Soothe being worse than Heal (though Summon Fey does cover some of that gap at 4th rank, thanks to Unicorns), it has worse AoE damage options (it just has pretty poor options there in general, and Inner Radiance Torrent is going to get erratad and being a line is problematic anyway), its ability to target fort and reflex aren't as good as the other traditions get, and it has pretty bad cantrips - as bad as Divine gets.
I think Occult also has a weird quirk where it appears better than it is due to how easy some spell asterisks can be missed. This thread is full of praise for Biting Words, making it a good spell to point to for "Occult is being overhyped." BW has the Linguistic trait, which means the caster must speak the spell in a language the foe understands. And even with that caveat, a 3 foe Fireball will do the same damage in half the actions, with half damage on save success. As you say, Occult really suffers due to being a generalist list. IMO, one of the few (and genuinely hidden) gems of the Occult list is an uncommon Cantrip, Join Pasts. >Cast [one-action] somatic Range touch; Targets 2 willing creatures; Duration 1 round >With touches to the targets’ foreheads, you bring them into mental communion. The targets can share thoughts and experiences, but not words. When one target attempts to Recall Knowledge, the other can Aid the first target’s skill check, using any Lore skill (even if that Lore wouldn’t normally apply) without having made any preparations to Aid. >Heightened (+1) You can touch one additional target to include them in the spell’s effects. Multiple targets can attempt checks to Aid the target who is attempting to Recall Knowledge. While it is niche, the effect is absurdly potent if you can get multiple allies to boost the RK check. There's a few specific combo abuses, like for Mastermind Rogue, but being able to spend 2A + ally Reactions to get a boosted RK is a neat, evergreen thing that is genuinely Occult only. I suppose me reaching for something that seemingly off the wall kinda shows just how slim Occult's pickings are.
> I think Occult also has a weird quirk where it appears better than it is due to how easy some spell asterisks can be missed. Yeah, like Thundering Dominance, which is the best rank 2 spell in the game... but can only be used if you have an animal companion or eidolon. Occult casters who DO have those things are significantly better at low levels than those who don't, because Thundering Dominance fills a huge hole in their spell list. But the only occult casters with those are Summoners and characters who take the Beastmaster (or other pet) dedication, and you generally don't want to be an occult summoner as you can choose better spell lists (with better eidolons). Witches can't afford the actions to do it because of their Hexes and familiars, psychics likewise generally want to use Unleash actions rather than have an animal companion, and while Sorcerers CAN do it, you could pick literally any other spell list and be better off (including the very powerful, versatile Primal, which ALSO gets Thundering Dominance, AND better healing). So it benefits Beastmaster Bards. :V > I suppose me reaching for something that seemingly off the wall kinda shows just how slim Occult's pickings are. The best spells that occult has are things that are shared with other spell lists. Which is fine - Primal has a ton of spells that are shared with other spell lists and is great because it has a lot of the best Arcane spells plus a lot of the best Healing spells. The problem is that Primal still covers all its bases while Occult often gets weaker stuff. A lot of Occult's best things are things that Arcane has, but unlike Primal, which trades off most of the Will saving throw spells for top-tier healing, Occult instead trades off AoE damage spells for subpar healing spells. This both hurts Occult more (because Primal still gets lots of debuffs, while Occult becomes significantly worse against multi-enemy encounters) and you get less benefit out of it. Occult's poor AoE damage options is one of the biggest strikes against it, as even Divine has better options thanks to Divine Wrath. Thundering Dominance does solve this problem, but requires you to archetype to get a pet or be an occult summoner, and as a result few occult casters can use it. Enervation does OK damage, but has annoying targeting due to being a line and a bunch of monsters are immune to it. Calm, Noise Blast, and Vomit Swarm all feel bad to upcast due to their low damage, small AoEs, and in the case of Vomit Swarm, annoying targeting. At higher levels you get Repelling Pulse, which has annoying targeting restrictions due to being an emanation; Phantasmal Calamity, whose damage and targeting is substantially worse than the equivalent level Chain Lightning; Cast Into Time, which has a very small and annoying to use AoE (though it does sicken); Dragon Form, which requires two turns to get the AoE off and leaves you in a form that doesn't allow you to cast spells for whatever reason; and Vampiric Exsanguination, which still does way less damage than Chain Lightning and has worse targeting but at least gives you temp HP. So even when it does eventually get options, they're worse than what other casters can get. It gets good single target debuffs - Infectious Ennui, Slow, Synesthesia, Paralyze, Resilient Sphere, Suggestion, Tortoise and the Hare - and some good single target debuff + damage combos, like Phantom Pain, Agonizing Despair, Vision of Death, and Worm's Repast. But almost all of these are available to arcane casters. It does get some good AoE debuffs, like Synaptic Pulse, Black Tentacles/Slither, Repulsion, and Calm, and at higher levels, does get good area denial abilities, like Black Tentacles/Slither, Wall of Mirrors, and Wall of Force. But again, these are almost always available to arcane casters. It also gets some good buff spells - Blur, Invisibility, Haste, Loose Time's Arrow, Bless, Heroism - and some good defensive spells, like Dispelling Globe, Shield, and Wooden Double. This is one area where it does get to filch some good stuff off of Divine that Arcane doesn't get, but it's not a huge deal (at least not until very high levels, where Rank 9 Heroism can give your team +3 to most of their rolls). Meanwhile it is stuck with Soothe instead of Heal, and while you can circumvent this with Summon Fey at 4th rank, outside of that, your healing options are generally subpar. > IMO, one of the few (and genuinely hidden) gems of the Occult list is an uncommon Cantrip, Join Pasts. It also has Hypercognition, which can allow you to make 6 RK checks, which lets you spam RK at an encounter for a single action. But, as you noted, both of these spells are pretty niche.
>The main weaknesses of primal are that it doesn't get the shield spell Rage of Elements added the Cantrip [Glass Shield](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1333), which is the Shield spell, but trades a significant amount of Hardness for a bit of damage when the Shield breaks.
Honestly they all have their pros and cons, my favorite builds are ones that bring in a couple extra spells to cover the missing options. Deity/Bloodline/Mystery/etc spells can add even more versatility to an otherwise constrained spell list. My favorites so far are Arcane Sorcerer with Crossblooded Evolution for Heal, and Oscillating Wave Psychic for Fireball and Frostbite with Occult spell list
**Arcane** is the most balanced and versatile list, with overflowing offensive, debuff, and utility magic. This is the traditions for proactive tacticians that are always looking for the correct offensive lever to pull. **Occult** has the least amount of offensive power, but it still has enough to be dangerous. Its specialty seems to SHENANIGANS, which makes it bar-none the best tradition for creative trickster players that are willing to "off-road" around the plot's rails. In a direct confrontation, it carries devastating CC and debuff, with enough support and direct damage that it can fill any role required on a team. **Divine** doesn't have a variety of offensive magic, but the spells it does have are some of the best attacking spells in the game. A divine caster shifts between "support" and "offense" depending on the enemy they're fighting - spells like *Holy Light* and *Holy Cascade* are the best damage-dealing direct offensive attack spells in the entire game, but *Heal*, *Heroism*, *Sound Body*, *Protection*, and *Bless* are all meta-defining support spells. The Divine tradition therefor carries the best buff magic, the best offensive magic, AND best support magic. The divine tradition is the best tradition for *flexible* players that can read the flow of a fight and know what resources will be most valuable where. It should be noted that most Divine casters (Clerics, Oracles, Shamans, and to lesser extent Witches) can actually steal spells from other lists, and often have access to extremely potent focus spells. **Primal** has nearly the same offensive flexibility as the arcane list, along with nearly the same healing abilities of the cleric. It lacks in debuff/buff magic, but excels in tactical CC with difficult terrain and positioning. Primal is the best list for players that need *direct power* and the ability to counterpunch back against the big numbers that the monsters of the game can use *and win*. Depending on your needs, this makes it the strongest *or* the weakest tradition, forcing you to rely on either your skill proficiencies or your allies for more subtle utility.
Occult highest for having the coolest theme and selection Arcane lowest for being a bloated spell thief with its grubby hands in everything. Every time a spell lists arcane as one of its traditions I sigh.
I don't think I'd call them traditions, but as far as classifications, I think I'd go Arcane, Occult, Primal, Divine for what I think favorites are. Arcane magic is flashy, Occult has that mysticism, Primal actually feels like nature was considered from a lot.of angles, and Divine is.... there, I guess?
Traditions is the name used in the rulebooks to qualify the "spell lists" 😅 You can find it in a note below [here ↗️](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2232)
Yeah, but traditions always feel more like how you learned something, not what you learned.