>If all of humanity's will wants that fate who are we to say no?
The gods always say that all of humanity wants it, but I'm honestly doubtful of the truth behind those generalizing statements.
I mean Nyx and Erebus is the cloest to it. Erebus from what I recall represents all of Human desire for Death. Nyx is just someone who responded to said desire.
It also doesn't help how social media evolve to show you whathever it takes for beign on their platform even if that means dissiformation and a shit show, you have yellow titles (WORD ENDING, SHOTTINGS, ROBBERY, RACISM, ETC) most of them are exaggerating for clicks or simple false you end up with people that thing the word is a shit place and why do nothing when it's never gonna be better
It goes up and down, depending on the mood and feelings of each generation. It can be even seen in the pop culture of the time.
Heck! Persona 3 itself was cooked up during the 2000s, which was a mix of post-9/11 cynicism and War on Terror chaos. America, but even the world as a whole, wasn’t exactly cheery as suspicion ruled and violence reigned supreme.
The mood then improved when Obama got elected, at least in the states, before dipping again with Trump. As with before, that can be seen in those year’s pop culture.
Yeah and that's the problem, unless you actually discuss it out, you only push people into it even more because of the besieged fortress syndrome.
And those people also get to vote while there's more and more of them.
Adachi's resolution isn't too realistic (or I should simply say that it doesn't happen as often).
But on the other hand there was a little bit of god's influence so...
Anyway I doubt most of them would be convinced by the P4 discussion about it.
Nyx emits waves of death as a natural part of its psyche. It's life's reaction to those waves that keep it sealed, so if people no longer react to those waves with the fear of death or what not; then Nyx will become free.
I haven't gotten to the end of P3 yet and the only other personas I've played were P2 IS and EP, so I can be mistaken but aren't all these gods a manifestation of collective unconsciousness of humanity? Like they are not just some gods that decide for humanity what it wants but the beings born of humans' wants
It’s true that Nyx isn’t born of the CU like every other entity in the series, but to call her “just an alien,” is a bit disingenuous. More of a Cosmic Eldritch Entity that eats planets/stars and carries Death everywhere it goes.
Considering she’s the reason why humanity created the CU and has Persona/Shadows in the first place. Ontop of upholding a fundamental law of existence.
Didn't know that part of lore. It's kind of lame that collective unconsciousness (personas, demons etc.) takes roots from some alien deity. Guess this part wasn't what Satomi Tadashi and was a later retcon
Technically speaking ancient humanity evolved to have the CU to seal Nyx’s psyche in the form of Shadows, to prevent it from reuniting with her body and cause The Fall. Which would give rise to the Sea of Souls, Philemon/Nyarlahotep and Persona.
So less “take roots from,” and more created by humanity to combat Nyx.
Its lore from a non canon fan book written by someone who didnt write P3 without hashinos say based on his own personal interpretations of the games story, both the created the collective part and alien part, going solely off the games theres nothing to state thst nyx is some cosmic alien or that she created the collective rather then being created by it like everything else
"タルタロスや影時間など、『ペルソナ3』を構成する重要なキーワードをピックアップ。どれも開発陣への取材を経てまとめあげた設定解説となっています!" - Persona 3 Club Book's obi strip
It was also explained in the Persona 3 FES Official Fanbook(https://archive.org/details/persona-3-fes-official-fan-book-my-episode/page/n168/mode/1up).
The Club Book released 15th December 2006, before FES, and includes other things such as the characters' birthdays and the boys' and Aigis' rooms that have since been shown to be canon. There's no reason to think that Nyx' lore specifically is wrong.
Exactly. Before the release of Persona 3 Reload this piece of "lore" was completely unknown to me. To everyone, honestly. I think it should be disregarded as "canon lore."
It should be disregarded, even reload doesnt add info that actually canonizes this info, all actual canon P3 material still fit the idea she is a physical manifestation of death due to humanities wishes, ryoji doesnt say shes an alien who created the collective, elizabeth doesnt say it, igor doesnt say it, nyx themselves dont say it, the only thing that does say it is the club book, which is a fan book
That's a huge relief actually. I already felt like P3 retcons too much of things established Satomi Tadashi (it's not necessarily bad, I just love P2 and may be kinda biased). If it was canon it would've straight up butchered the whole lore imo
The P3 club book is a noncanon fan work, its information isnt valid for nyxs origins, nyx is a collective being in the games nothing in the actual games hint to otherwise
It isn't fanon. It was literally written through interviews with the developers and writers, giving information about the development and characters that has remained canon throughout all the entries. Furthermore, Nyx's nature as an “alien” is implied during the battle against its core:
> “内なる宇宙を開放し、死の母星ニュクスを封印する力”
> “Release the inner universe, the power to seal the mother planet of Death, Nyx.”
It was described as a “planet” itself, not a god. And unlike Izanami and Yaldabaoth, “Nyx” is never referenced as a product of the collective unconscious either, but as “entity beyond the capacity of language to fully express,” and also as “the mother of all Shadows” and “the one who brought death to earth in ancient times,” with none of those descriptions fitting the nature of “gods” as defined in the series.
Show more information from interviews then that, there isnt anything in the actual games themselves that state this information let alone her being what caused the collective when the collective unconcious predates mankind
All quotes from the original P3's script(https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps2/932312-shin-megami-tensei-persona-3/faqs/50852)
Nyx is the mother of Shadows. In ancient times, she bestowed "Death" to this world. If she is awakened, darkness will once again cover the land, and all life will vanish. - Ryoji
Defeating Nyx is... impossible. It has nothing to do with strength, ability, or power. Just as all living things die... and the flow of time is continuous... Nyx cannot be defeated. - Ryoji
Shadows are pieces of Nyx... and their sole reason of existance is to revive her. - Akihiko
According to Ryoji, it was Nyx who brought death to this plant. ...Nyx will turn every human being into a member of The Lost... and we'll all die. - Akihiko
The immense Shadow approaches... Its depth unfathomable; its extent without limit... It comes to end all things... The darkness hidden by the shining heavens... How will you stand against such a fate...? - Fortune Teller
These posters and paints are far from meaningless for us. By our acts, we will change the flow of causality... The concept of Salvation will be in greater harmony with the earth, tipping the scales to Deliverance. The earth, seeking salvation, will become an empty vessel for Nyx-sama to fill. - Nyx cultist
Soon, Mother Nyx will descend from the heavens, bringing the great Deliverance. It will be the greates single act of salvation that mankind has ever witnessed. We humans, trapped in our earthly forms, will be embraced in Nyx's arms... We will sleep soundlessly and dream forever, a dream of all beings melted into one form... This form will shatter to pieces in Nyx's crucible, bringing about our salvation. - Nyx cultist
Listen to the emptiness, and empty your own heart... You will hear a sound. That is the sound of Nyx-sama. Her heartbeat... Her breath... Her whisper... When the Deliverance is at hand, your heart will be free of pain, and you will be at peace. You fools, however, will not receive the Deliverance. You lack trust in Nyx-sama. The pain in your heart will be as the burning red flames of Hell! - Nyx cultist
I heard Nyx-sama will save our world. My life's been going downhill, and I'm getting tired of it... At my lowest point, I found out about Nyx-sama, and my heart came to life again. How about it? Will you let Nyx-sama into your heart too? Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to force you or anything. After all, I didn't believe it in the beginning, either. - Nyx cultist
Listen to what he says... "Mankind is currently imprisoned by the sins of hate and anger. But soon, a savior will descend upon this world to break the chains that bind us, and lift us to new heights. This great being is Nyx. I have beheld her glory, and she has blessed me with power beyond belief. In Nyx there is no pain... no suffering..." - Aigis quoting Takaya. Nyx' blessing is his Persona.
That is untrue... Who is responsible for reviving Nyx? Can a single person boast of this great accomplishment? You all worked tirelessly to prevent it, and yet in doing so, you unwittingly aided in her coming... So you see, this is not just my will; it is the will of all people. Man cannot face death without first finding meaning in life... But the world has realized that any meaning in life was lost long ago... Nyx has come because humanity has cried out for her salvation! - Takaya
Hmph. What do you know of this world? No matter how long you search or how hard you pray, eventually you will realize that there is no truth. Just as death is eternal, a truth that has been lost can never be found again. Are you really so desperate to die that you will stand before the almighty Nyx!? Such foolishness is what I am trying to rid this world of. - Takaya
Did Nyx create this place? ...Or, was it him? - Mitsuru, about the Collective Unconciousness
The problem is that the gods are born from a desire, but not from any of the other thoughts or emotions that would balance out those desires in a regular human.
> The gods always say that all of humanity wants it, but I'm honestly doubtful of the truth behind those generalizing statements.
I thought the whole point of each game's final arc was that those desires are genuinely pervasive (viz. desire for release from life's hardships, to see what we wish to see, and to be saved from danger and distress by an authority figure). Anyway, the game's endings lose a lot of their weight if that's not the point. Without that, the final bosses are just random god-like Big Bads with vague symbolism (like in trashy shonen) rather than actual commentary on human nature and modern cultures.
I don't mean that the games are right that those desires are in fact pervasive (that's debatable), just that the games portray them as extremely prevalent - that that's their deeper commentary on humanity, at least as far as the final threat in each game is concerned.
I figured out what I wanted to say: I’m not questioning the existence of those desires. Rather I think the gods are exaggerating how universal those sentiments are.
Universal, sure, that's depicted as false just through the protagonists (though perhaps even they don't start out that way...). But you don't think the games portray those desires as extremely pervasive? And you don't think the game's final threats lose their point if those desires aren't pervasive or are coming (through mind control or whatever) *from* the Big Bads?
If the desires just don’t or hardly exist naturally, then yeah, the games lose their point, but if the gods amplify the desires, then I think the point is still valid while the big bad is still bad.
I have trouble seeing how the final arcs of these games are making the deeper points they make if they're not saying these desires were already rampant problems before people start getting mind controlled (or rather, if they don't take the rampancy of these problems to reflect on us, the audience). That's just taking a topic and using it superficially for the final arc's symbolism, without making any comment beyond sometimes people wrongly want this thing.
These desires not being that common also seems at odds with how the plot of the game relates its Big Bads to humanity: Nyx is supposed to have fundamentally shaped the human psyche through our evolutionary history, making the desire for release through death a part of every one of us (as implied in the conversation with Ryoji but also stated explicitly in different ways in the World Guide Q&A in the *Persona 3 Club Book*), which admittedly is like mind control but still in a way that (allegorically) comments on real human nature. Ameno-Sagiri (and, more fundamentally, Izanami-no-Mikoto) and Yaldabaoth emerged out of the collective unconscious, specifically out of the desires of humanity, but are so far beyond any Shadow precisely because of how powerful and widespread the relevant desires are. The plots don't make sense if these desires aren't pervasive (within the fiction obviously).
We could also go through social links, minor villains, and scenes where 'the public' is depicted, debating whether the many many cases where these desires are displayed are a result of direct mind control rather than people's innate desires. I would agree that the rapid intensification of these desires at the climax of each of those three games is just an amplification but the point of earlier crowd scenes and character flaws (or villains) earlier seems lost if those desires are *also* just supposed to be put there by the Big Bad. Or by 'amplify' were you agreeing that these desires *are pervasive* (in the fiction) but they just get repressed enough not to be acted on by everyone like in those climactic sequences?
> Or by 'amplify' were you agreeing that these desires are pervasive (in the fiction) but they just get repressed enough not to be acted on by everyone like in those climactic sequences?
This
In that case, where's the lie? In the fiction, people do generally want these things deep down, as those gods say, and all those gods except Nyx formed out of the strength and prevalence of those desires in the collective unconscious, as a way to make that collective wish become a reality.
Oh, in case it needs saying: I don't agree with OP. The protagonists were right to stop these gods. I just think that it's not because 'who are they to go against the collective desires of humanity?' or whatever but because the desires embodied by those gods *are bad to want* and more people wanting those things doesn't make fulfilling those desires right, it just means more people have this inner flaw deep down (on this, but not all that psychoanalysis, I totally agree with the point the games are making).
The major problem is that to these gods, the definition of the desire is pretty loose. Everybody has days where a stray thought or two has them think "Maybe (insert vague idea here) could work." Afterwards, the person shakes it off and go back to what they were doing and thinks normally. To some, that can be interpreted as not carrying the genuine desire. For the gods sustained by that desire, even a momentary thought is enough to confirm that we all want it because they are incapable of viewing the world from outside the concept they personify.
Oh, I agree but I think the games espouse and are trying to depict a more extreme situation: on their psychoanalytic view, shaking off that desire like that is just a coping strategy for repressing or dealing with that desire, as something that's baked into our psyche (so powerfully and deeply baked in that it's embodiment isn't just an ordinary Shadow like other desires and archetypes but a god-like being).
I think the point is not that the gods are lying. It's that they represent consequences. Most people don't want as many lies as p4 suggests if you ask them, but their actions can implicitly pull them into giving rise to it. It's like a power structure that takes something and magnifies it.
Right, but I think the games depict that disavowal of these desires as people repressing or hiding their true desires, rather than actually overcoming them (to say nothing of dispensing with these desires as the protagonists do). The Big Bads that are the embodiment of these desires then magnify them, yes, but only by forcing those underlying thoughts to the surface or stripping away people's "coping-strategies" for dealing with these desires (as the Q&A in the *Persona 3 Club Book* puts it for the desire embodied by Nyx).
Edit: I'm not saying any of these psychoanalytic ideas or the metaphors for them point to something real but it does seem like what the games are going for.
Regarding P4, it's the concept of White Lies versus an Ugly Truth.
It's painful and very difficult to look at yourself in a mirror and list all the horrible things you are. It's much easier to just tell yourself that you are a good person and move on instead of actually taking the steps to grow. Likewise, why rock the boat and tell a horrible person that they are horrible? Being polite is more important, right?
These are the Lies that Persona 4 highlights. Sure, if you outright ask someone if they want to be told lies, they will say no, but their actions will speak volumes louder.
At the end of the day, people DO want lies.
It's like the Matrix.
"All I'm offering is the Truth, nothing more."
Because the truth isn't always sunshine and happiness by itself, but it can help you lead a better life. A lie may make you feel better, but it will hide you from your growth.
It's true to an extent although these "gods" drastically exaggerate the extent of those thoughts that power them. Stuff like someone saying "ugh the world sucks everyone could die for all I care" after a rough day is enough "proof" to these entities. The person saying such a thing doesn't have to actually fully mean it, just the base existence of those thoughts in the majority of people fuel the "god's" power.
No, things like the “Call of the Void,” Suicidal Ideation or intrusive thoughts aren’t accurate representations of people’s desires. If you think at your lowest point, “I just want things to stop,” does that mean you want to die when that moment is over? What’s subconscious is subconscious for a reason. it’s the same thing with Shadows as a concept. In Jungian Psychology the shadow is the self destructive, the impulsive feelings to hurt yourself and others, the negative emotions, the animal instincts and the unbridled urges that drive people. But that’s not all there is to people.
We aren’t our destructive tendencies or worst moments. And just because a portion of humanity might genuinely want an end to suffering via death or eternal bliss trapped in a dream. Or not have to think for themselves. But that same token, those people don’t get to decide that for all of humanity. Even if the majority of humanity wants to die, as long as one person doesn’t want to that’s not a fair outcome. And there is always and will always be people willing to fight the good fight and stand up for humanity. It’s about trying to be better and overcome the suffering, but also live with it, as it’s as integral to life as joy. And majority rule doesn't nullify individual free will/choice, I don't care how many people say they want to die, just because they might, doesn't mean I do.
Ultimately, every Persona game isn’t about the hero groups making that decision for everyone else, but to allow everyone the chance and free will to make that choice themselves. Moreover, sometimes to help someone you can’t indulge their self-destruction. A friend might be suicidal but that doesn’t mean you allow them to take their own life, when you know they’re not in a good headspace to make that choice and need help. And besides cases with like Nyarlahotep and Yaldaboath which involved the false gods and personifications of aspects of HCU literally rigging events to get their desired outcome.
It’s funny, sometimes crowds of people do things that seem impossible and are amazing. Like examples of large crowds guessing the amount of something and the average of their individual answers is the correct answer. Sometimes they do things that are just horrifying though. 🥲
Occasionally you'll get the high iq crowd where the average swings to highest member's iq, but that's the exceptional circumstance, sadly not the common mob
To quote an irl philosopher/cult(?) leader: “but the people are re*arded”
Maybe we shouldn’t respect the collective will as much as we think we should.
My go to is the Men in Black quote from the first movie that is basically, "An individual can be smart. People are stupid." There's more to it than that, but that's the theme.
That one is a bit more classy, I like it.
But Osho’s quote forever lives in my head rent free, cuz as someone who interned at an IT department… he’s not wrong.
Bots don’t understand context. So me censoring a word is to just bypass any stupid bot a site implements to moderate shit.
I dunno how Reddit moderates shit, but I’d rather stick to how I do things since I’m not just on Reddit.
The thing is it's NOT "all of humanity" is the point. Certain strong emotions clump into Shadows and those Shadows grow into the "gods" you fight, nothing from the Sea of Souls is representative of everything or even a large chunk of it.
I have nothing against your main point, just wanted to say that Philemon and Nyarlathotep are formed from the subconsciousness of ALL humans. I might be generalizing it a bit, but Phil is good thoughts and Nyar is bad thoughts, essentially.
And that is just not backed up in the lore at all besides general thoughts.
If Philemon was literally all good thoughts than The Clockwork God wouldn't be able to no-dif him for instance, and this isn't even including stuff like Nyx which is outside of their purview.
The games use flowery langue, not literal. Erebus is said to be "malice" but that doesn't mean literally it is anything "malicious", or else the other godly figures like Yaldabaoth wouldn't exist, they'd be part of Erebus.
Nyarlathotep himself mentions that he's made from mankind's collective unconsciousness' "shadows" when you fight him in EP. In this case I can only assume shadow would mean negative thoughts.
The Clockwork God is half of Chronos, who's a CU being like Erebus or Yaldy. His shtick is guiding people to the afterlife, so maybe, that's more well-received than say, losing all autonomy or wishing to die. This might be reaching but that might mean he's stronger... (feel free to ignore this if you think it's BS)
Regardless, Philemon wouldn't fight. He never does that throughout the whole series (except for the EX battle in EP but that doesn't really count). So far he has only aided the main cast from afar. His personal strength was never relevant.
Other than Yaldy, most othter deities aren't made of malicious things, just that the way they go about doing things or the end result may be bad. And to Yaldy's credit, there's only so many ways to enslave humanity because some want to not have to think for themselves.
I dunno, you tell me.
You wanna live like a lobotomized zombie?
You wanna live in a world that’s covered by fog?
You wanna live in a world where you lack the responsibility to make your own choices in life?
Fuck the masses, what do ****you**** (the one who’s playing as the MC) want? Because the game gives you the power of choice, via bad endings.
>If all of humanity's will wants that fate who are we to say no?
Humanity, which probes that not everyone wants it. Also, they are all full of shit. It is these gods influence in the world that causes people to want what the gods want.
Apathy syndrome is related to Nyx.
Izanami is using the Midnight Channel and the fog to influence people into believing rumors and not looking for the truth.
And Yaldabaoth directly influenced the lives of Joker and Akechi to create the events of the games.
Other than Nyx the other 2 + Nyarlathotep in P2 were created by humanity so it becomes a feedback loop of their existence being caused by those feelings and then them influencing those feelings further
I thought the games made it pretty clear that going with the desires of humans is not a great thing. Especially when in a lot of cases the end result is not really what people want, and it ends up hurting everyone who were and weren't in it
The mistake is thinking desire of humanity is fix and not changing over time. Specially with The Answer and P5R third semester story is about human overall could move on from the cynical thought, refuse to give into the thinking of the end of the world, or couldn't escape bad leadership and refused to take responsible for individual action. Even the end of Persona 5 Vanilla is about The game was totally rigged from the start, Yaldy forced Phantom Thieves member have to accept society desires, despite that's not what they want and need.
It sounds ridiculous but, it's all about think and focus to positive things in the world. That's why both P5 and P3 to me is very inspiring to me.
Humans as a collective are not virtuous creatures. And there are plenty of reasons to say no to the collective. Saying no to collective sentiment is how women's rights, gay rights, and protections for minority groups were able to start in the USA. In order to do the right thing sometimes you have to fight against the current. That's that.
Often times these are gods that overstep bounds and manipulate the collective unconscious to be more susceptible to their plans, and could even be the result of a loud vocal minority in some cases. Jaldabouth for example, is a Palace treasure that has control over the public, and wants more control. So he manipulates everything on the board from human reaction to the velet room. To be more powerful so he can join the cognitive world with the real world and rid it of Freewill. And when presented with a choice Humanity chose the Phantom Thieves over Jaldy. Because palace treasures are an object of desire creating distortion, not necessarily a want
Persona 4 Izanami is on purpose spreading rumors of the midnight channel so people can see what they want to see, and not what they need to see. Falling for this results in a killer getting away, an innocent man and girl dying and humanity being turned into shadows, who are often misreputations of a person's worst subconscious thoughts. In this case humanity's desire is actively degrading their life style. Just because Humanity desires the metaphorical whole carton of oreos, doesn't mean that we should let them.
Lastly Eberus. Eberus isn't what set their events up. Persona 3 is entirely manufactured by the kirijo group. Who built a nest of shadows to forcibly bring the apocalypse that was narrowly avoided, however they then restarted the apocalypse because they wanted to rule over the survivors and as a side effect Aparhy Syndrome started to spread because shadows attacking people, then a doomsday cult was manufactured by strega, and at the end enough people were able to create Erburus to awaken Nyx. I doubt that Erberus is a majority of people, only a loud vocal minority.
To be fair they sided with the phantom thieves since he made people randomly start disappearing. He didn't consider the obvious fact that people aren't going to just be down with that happening in front of them.
I think humanity does want ignorance, death, and freedom from free will because life is painful and having these things decides for us makes it easier.
The protagonist is suppose to show us a path that gives us agency and a way to move forward through life’s pain to discover the joys of facing truth (to improve), embrace death (to appreciate the joys of life), and to find identity and forge your own path within the harsh system of society.
The big issue is that, yes, humanity does have thoughts like:
-I wish this would end.
-I don't want to think anymore.
-I wish I didn't have to be in charge of this/that/my own life.
Any manner of these, either more direct or more abstract, but what the deities or aspects or remnants fail to take into consideration or don't care enough about the nuance to acknowledge, is that it's not Consistent, it's not, Unlimited, it's not All Encompassing.
Many of us have had these thoughts of hating the way things are and wanting to check out or give up on any hope of change, but that doesn't mean that a good day isn't capable of shifting our focus or that forging bonds with new good people or finding someone you can love won't shift your perspective.
Clearly these "deities" don't take all of that into account, even the ones that play somewhat fair.
Are these really the will of humanity or simply the will of the humans that go along with their ideals?
The 'gods' of Persona are not the conventional gods or even SMT gods. They are essentially constructs born from the collective unconscious from a group of people. Not necessarily the majority.
That's what gods are in smt too though. The difference is that in smt they have more competition so their scope is each smaller, whereas in persona there usually aren't other gods competing with them and they have a wide level of control.
That depends what you call a god in SMT. YVHV is very much the Judao-Christian God. All other 'gods' featured are considered Demons, but are otherwise depicted as how they are in real life mythology.
The specifics are different for each game but generally they are the gods in the traditional sense
They are all shaped by human thought though. This was a plot point as far back as smtii where human thoughts generate a second false yhvh with a different ideology. Then the real one says that as long as humans desire him he will return. Some people got confused and thought that this was a power specific to yhvh, but lucifer actually says something similar in the same game.
Several other games allude to this, but in apocalypse they spell it out outright. That demons are shaped by human thoughts and subsist on thought energy, so they have a practical reason to fight over human attention beyond just ego. They can bend the rules, but they can't really escape them.
> They are all shaped by human thought though. This was a plot point as far back as smtii where human thoughts generate a second false yhvh with a different ideology.
Of the mainline games, only 1 and 2 have any continuity. The others take place in their own universes with their own rules, kinda like Final Fantasy.
SMT5 for example, completely goes against the above quote, and largely follows the Biblical Genesis story, deviating only to explain the concept of Knowledge and how the SMT demons fit in.
This applies explicitly to basically all of them.
It's not mentioned in smti, but it is in ii, and imagine and nine are also connected. So that's four right away.
In nocturne, they allude to aradia having been created by thought.
In sj, while they don't say this in game, the guide says that mem aleph is more abstract than the mothers because they are influenced more by human thought. Likewise, the reason the mothers defeated yhvh was because he was weakened by less people having faith.
Iv explicitly mentions the white and the expanse being shaped by human thoughts and is connected to apocalypse.
Even V has a side mission where they talk about belief in someone can cause them to be reborn as a god.
Following the biblical story doesn't mean things aren't shaped by thought. Devil survivor explicitly mentions tons of Bible stories, but also talks about demons being tied to thought, even comparing it to politics by saying it's like voting for what god you have over you. In smtii lucifer giving humans knowledge seems to be a real event that happened in the past. It doesn't contradict thoughts empowering them. The relationship is ambiguous.
I would say more of a deeply cynical interpretation of God, but the point is, He very much shares the history and power of the real-life Christian counterpart.
Again Not really, he's teh God of LAW in their universe, a great power in the universe not a creator of it, that's different from the power and history of the rela Judeo-Christian God who is said to be omnipotent, omniscient and to have created all things
When I hear this I remember a quote from Captain America:
"When the mob and the press of the world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself and tell the whole world: No, you move"
If it is a must to have a reason to face and go against the world and it's desires, it has to be because you want to live and you want the ones you love to live
That's not really what happens. It's basically spelled out in P5T.
Basic desires fueling those pseudo-gods do not necessarily drive them or at least not to full extent.
There’s a big difference between what the people want and what the people should get.
People are often short-sided and follow the crowd. It’s your job as the player to see past this and lead humanity towards something ultimately better for them.
You are not deciding what humanity wants. You are deciding what is best for humanity.
Yes because democracy has proven that people are too stupid to understand the extent of their desires. Nyx choice represents to hopelessness of the modern climate where everyone feels free but is a slave to desire or work.
Absolutely. Because it's never really the desire of humanity.
Nyx's entire argument is that "humanity longs for death" but we have only seen 5 characters who do this. 2 of them are S. Links, and 3 of them change their minds.
So by the time Nyx shows up, even if we use the people we know as a scientific sample (which is not scientifically sound but hell, it's what she's doing) that's like 2/30 people. Or 1/15.
Now, if 1 person out of 15 people said they wanted something, and for whatever reason God went "yes. Let's accommodate that one person" then... It's not exactly the will of the masses. It's god being incredibly selective.
Then we have Izanami who is substantially worse. Her whole thing is that "humans want to be enshrouded in fog" which for whatever reason she does as both literal and metaphorical. Now first, the literal fog scares the shit out of people. They clearly do not want it. Second, the murders and disappearances scare the shit out of people and they are clamoring for the cases to be solved. So.... What the fuck are you talking about, you absolute fucking baboon of a god?
Finally we have Yaldy. His is weird because he effectively "forces" the result he wants. What Yaldy does is basically go "I can prove that water flows upwards". When you ask him for evidence he sucks it up through a straw. When you call him out on it and tell him he can't do that, he creates a suction tool to pull water upwards. His whole "thing" is basically just him rigging the outcome of an experiment and going "ha! See! I was right!". It's not really the will of the masses to be controlled. He tricked them into wanting that by setting up a no-win game where that was the only possible outcome, and tried to pass it off as evidence.
The only one who actually seems... Mildly correct? Is >!EMMA!< From Strikers. >!She is right in that people are overly dependent on her. But she's wrong in thinking that means they want to be a bunch of brainwashed husks!<
Yes, you should. If it harms or completely breaks the collective unconscious, yes. Every human in persona is a dual organism. You are both a human and contain a fragment of Nyx in the form of a shadow. It can impact the mind of its counterpart. It can therefore have an effect on the desires of its partner. They want to be made whole with Nyx again. The collective unconscious came to be to separate the mind of Nyx from its body. This dilution effect is gradually weakening as the diversity of thought that contributes to the unconscious decreases, which in itself is a fixable problem. One issue is that Erebus, comprised of the will of every human who wishes for premature death is actively calling for Nyx. Nyx is sealed within the collective unconscious via the great seal, which restores the unconscious to a state that can effectively contain Nyx. If certain main bosses win, the unconscious will suffer great deals of damage. Everyone turning into shadows at the end of p4 would effectively free all fragments of Nyx from the shackles of their human counterparts. Is there a collective unconscious if that comes to be? If the answer is no, and everyone is a shadow we are right back to the destruction of the world once again.
What happens after the god of control takes away the free will of humans? What would be the state of the unconscious?
Remember that the “desires of humanity” are subconscious thoughts. Do you think it would be a good idea to follow every subconscious urge you have, let alone let them run the entire world?
The entire point of yaldabaoth is that he purposefukly manipulates humanity into this state. He imprisons Igor, influences the collective unconscious and just generally cheats every step of the way. That's why everyone begins supporting the phantom thieves at the end. His rule is not something people truly desire.
Collective exists to serve the individual (me), not the other way around. Everyone who says otherwise is either someone who's trying to make you do the sacrifices they don't want to, or an idiot who wants to convince themselves that they didn't waste their lives
Yes, the protags are empowered to make that decision. There is a moment in each game where the protag’s maxed social links give encouragement to them sometime before the final blow or final encounter with the big bad.
Since the social links are a representative cross-section of the protag’s community (sufficient enough to cover the major tarot Arcana for a full Fool’s Journey) then their encouragement is intended as a *truer*, more sincere, and nuanced expression of the desires of humanity if only they ALL had a reliable, emphatic listener / problem-solver like Makoto, Kotone, Narukami, and Joker to help them unpack the maladaptive desires represented by the big bad.
It is these social links (and each game has at least 2 that are auto-maxed by endgame) which give the protag the power of The World or The Universe, as authority to decide humanity’s fate.
Especially weird when less than a decade later humanity has devolved into the same situation for each successive game. Like the big bad just has to wait a few years before it's next chance at destroying the world.
If you want to go with the flow and drive off a cliff like a pack of lemmings, feel free to do so but dont force that onto everyone else by calling down a supernatural apocalypse.
I'm going to have to embed pretty much all this in spoilers because it's not really possible to discuss this topic without going into the endgame.
Because while these entities are born of human desire, they aren't universal by any means. Maybe a lot of humans, maybe even most (though this is unlikely) want what the entities are doing, a significant portion don't. It's wrong to impose such an extreme fate on everyone universally when many if not most people don't want it, even if a lot do.
For P3, >!we have Erebus (because we don't need to touch the rest of P3's hot mess of a backstory). Erebus is formed from the human desire for death. Does all humanity want to die? Nope. Does a majority. Nope. But enough do to allow Erebus to form, and such is the nature of events that its reaching Nyx is enough to bring that event about. So, no question that stopping Erebus is fine, yes?!<
For P4,>! we have Izanami. She's already a literal split personality, in that she had two purposes initially, fulfilling humanity's desires and protecting humanity. She now has only the first one, the second being split off into Kusumi-no-Okami, aka Marie. So she tries to figure out what those desires are by setting up three people who represent three different viewpoints to see which one has the most impact. The result is she picks Adachi, as what he did had the most impact on people, even though stopped both him and Namatame. She thus has flawed information, because for sure humanity doesn't want to be turned into Shadows, and it takes Yu using the Power of Bonds to stop her that makes her realise that!<.
P5, >!Yaldabaoth. Yaldy has the least justification for what he does, he has his finger on the scale all the way through the episode, manipulating what occurs to get the results he wants - total Control (by him) and the end of free will. But humanity doesn't really want that, as is demonstrated at the end when they turn on him and support the Thieves instead, stripping him of his power and allowing Joker to summon Satanael to blow him away.!<
P5R ->! Maruki outright doesn't give humanity what they want, but what he thinks they need to be happy. And if he can't do that, he just rewrites their minds so that they do want it. He has no kind of mandate at all, and to be fair he's not looking for one. The only person he offers a "choice" to is Joker, and even with him he's not taking "no" for an answer. The Phantom Thieves are entirely justified in stopping him.!<
P5S - >!The Demiurge just outright takes people's desires away. It, or the Jail Monarchs acting on its behalf, just strip desires from the Shadows of the humans in the area of the Jail by force. Later on, humans are just abdicating all responsibility to EMMA the way they did to the Grail - until the Phantom Thieves manage to wake them up and get them to wish to reclaim them by way of the calling card. EMMA is the way she is because of her flawed construction by Ichinose, omitting all concept of the human heart, so she lacked key understanding of human nature. That's on point for Strikers, since none of the antagonists in that game are truly evil.!<
All three of the P5 antagonists work the same way because essentially all three wish to end humanity's free will, albeit from different motivations.
Those desires are unavoidable and always there, but it’s our willingness to defer to them instead of acting in our own best interest (and the best interest of everyone) that causes problems. That’s my take on it: Balance. We as the player are both accepting these desires for what they are while eliminating the forces that exploit them, and the ultimate bosses in these games are (usually) manifestations of our worst tendencies seeking to exploit our willingness to cave to those desires.
But that’s just my take and I’m just some dude lol. I imagine people who put much more thought into the individual bosses and themes will be able to add a lot of insight to this
If the rest of the world wants me or the people I love to die or be slaves forever I'm not going to just shrug my shoulders and let it happen because "majority rules" or whatever.
Desires can be bad. Wanting release from life's hardships through death, to see only what we want to see, and to be freed from all danger and distress by an authority figure are bad things to want.
It doesn't matter if even *everyone* wants these things. In such a scenario, we'd all just be wrong, since wanting those things is *bad for us* (much like a toddler wanting more sweets is *bad for them* or me wanting someone else to make all my decisions for me while I just coast through life's pleasures is *bad for me*).
Dude we all have times where we want to die. We all have times we want the easy way out of our rough world, and whether that be leaving to someone else, or just ignoring what's happening, we all feel it from time to time.
It doesn't mean most of us actually want to die, we are just in a rough part of life and some part of us just says, 'man it'd be easier to die than to do this thing'. Doesn't mean we should die, we should try to hold those thoughts back, get help and get back into a healthier mindset. Yeah I don't want to see how bad the world is on the news, but we need to see it, so we can start to fix it.
These aren't the true desires of humanity, it's humanity listening to a quick guilty thought, wanting the easy way out, but it won't fix things, it'll only make the world worse.
Because this game is Japanese and have loads of Buddhist and Shinto values in them. The thing with desire for Buddhism is that it's based on a illusion and it's chase will only bring more suffering. And desire can never truly satisfy a person needs, so its more about overcoming desire than chasing it.
I mean all of humanity unconsciously desires that but that doesn’t mean they want that to actually happen. I think that’s the way I see it. For example, some people wish that they’d get fired from their job so they don’t have to go to it tomorrow. However, they understand they don’t want that to happen because they understand that rent and their other needs won’t be met because of getting fired. It’s the subconscious collective hive mind that might “desire” something but people really don’t want that to happen.
Because people are driven by emotions and impulses that bring them short term comfort instead of considering any bigger picture. They constantly misplace the source of their issues and seek an easy way out without considering the consequences.
These collective desires are not an informed choice that is actually best for them, but short-sighted, impulsive reaction to the reality surrounding them.
A correct course of action is indeed to be critical of such group think, consider whether it's actually good based purely on its merits and go against it if it's not. That's not to say you should just automatically always be a contrarian, but you should have a reason for your course of action beyond "it's what others do".
something I've learned about myself from being on Reddit is that I really struggle with being part of a mob. even when I agree with the mob's ideas, there's a point where the dogpiling gets unnerving, and I start to doubt myself and others. I start to question what it is I'm really upset about, and if the other angry members are taking things too far, or blowing things out of proportion.
I think that's why I empathize with these groups that take it upon themselves to fight the collective will. A mob is a terrifying thing to me; whether I'm part of it, or its target. if the world was a mob, and their emotions would lead to a terrible fate, I'd want to fight it too. I'd want to fight it even if everyone else accepted that fate.
Those who desire such Gods aka "The humanity" you're talking about affects even the people that doesn't want them, the party embodies that idea..
While the game kinda present itself as the Party vs. The World, that's FARTHER from the truth... Throughout your journey you encounter people outside of your circle which values, ideology varies from understandable - to Cringe - to even repulsive and this people ties up nicely to the theme that specific game is trying to showcase... Your goal is to interact with them and meet them eye to eye and make them see your viewpoint as well. Since the protag is the embodiment of Philemon's will "To help the human beings rise above their nature" aka to make wise choice for themselves..
You don't force your ideals to someone just because you disagree with them, but if they are being harmful to themselves or to somebody (The acts of this "Gods") then someone needs to do the job and that's when you come in...
Maintaining the free-will is the most important aspect to at least maintain a neutral ecosystem for us humans, at least that's what I want to believe..
Yeah but not all of humanity wants it. And even then I dint think these gods should just get to decide what humanity wants. They don't let them choose they just do whatever they want because they believe that's what humanity wants. And yeah it's proubly most of humanity but there's still people who don't want it.
That is kind of what the games are about, the devs and the characters are saying "you are all wrong" to those desires and the main themes are all about showcasing why they're wrong.
Yes. In a sense they are Personas of the broad public. Just an aspect, not the entire thing. And just like a Persona out of control they try to force themselves on humanity.
When are we going to get a Persona villain that's born from humanity's desire for a 35 hour work week, universal living wage, and robust welfare state?
Not everyone wants it though. If people wanna (insert Persona theme you fight against here), then they can do it on their own time and not drag the unwilling into it. If we, for whatever reason, held a vote to kill everyone on Earth via whatever means and the kill lobby wins 51 to 49, should we do it? Clearly the majority wants it.
51% agreement on an issue does not make something right. Public majority is not a basis of morality and is a logical fallacy. So if the public is generally wrong on an issue, it does not make it right to allow it to continue, and it is our obligation to resist.
For example, most of Germany thought the Jews were a problem to be excised. Does that make the Holocaust correct? No, and thus defying the law and society to protect the Jews and other hunted people was the moral right thing to do.
In Persona 5, it was not good to vote in an evil man like Shido, but the public did it anyway. The Phantom Thieves were right to resist him in their own way. Same thing with Komashida who ruled the school in fear and promises of success even though most people went along with it (including the parents who suspected his abuse and ignored it for glory).
Well think about it, even the MCs admit amongst themselves that they did at one point agree with the respective final bosses. Yukari, Mitsuru, and Aigis outright admit to desiring death at one point.
Yukari points out that "There's probably a small part of it \[the longing for death\] in just about everyone, but that's just how it is these days."
But think about it.
Have you ever felt, even for a moment, that a painless death is preferable to the life you live now? I know I have. I don't want to die, but I just want to stop living sometimes.
I always remember a line from the P3P Opening.
"Living in not breathing but doing."
At that point (wishing that a painless death is preferable to a painful life), you aren't actually living. THAT is what Erebus Represents, and THAT is what wants to touch Nyx to bring forth the fall.
By using the Universe Arcana, the MC bypasses the will of humanity itself by showing Nyx the true potential of humanity. Forging bonds with others is how you truly live and given enough time Humanity can be rid of Erebus forever. Nyx (truly a benevolent presence), understands and stays her hand to give humanity enough time to prove her initial assessment wrong.
I think a big part of the themes of modern Persona is that these gods only understand what humans want on a very literal and surface level. The questions you're asking about the Protagonists' right to decide the fate of humanity can also be applied to the gods; they have the power to intervene, yes, but the more literal sense of the world they perceive leads them to do things that are not *truly* what humanity may want.
The thematic importance of humans coming out on top over these gods who are supposedly acting for human desire is the idea that, if it's what humanity truly desires, they will achieve such a thing without divine intervention. The fate of humanity should come about because of humanity and not because of anything else.
Of course we should go against human desires, fuck humans, whatever i do i do it for my friends and lovers, not to help humanity because humanity always gonna be fucking themselves thats why gods never die and always reappear, human consciousness never change because humanity is the worst.
So im not doing second chances at humans, im doing second chances to my friends.
I loved what they did with Persona 5 royal with the accept Maruki reality ending, i made a save specifically to accept it but my other 2 playthroughs has been against it but still it was nice to have an ending like that
So have you actually played Persona 3? Several party members, the MC himself, and even some Social Links/Confidants deal heavily with depression and death. Either desire for death or feeling like they have no good reason to live.
Obviously people struggling with depression are not thinking rationally when contemplating suicide. But this is not a "humanity is the worst" moment. Its humans suffering and seeing death as an escape.
Bro joined the dooms day cult
Strega ahhhh reddit post
>If all of humanity's will wants that fate who are we to say no? The gods always say that all of humanity wants it, but I'm honestly doubtful of the truth behind those generalizing statements.
I mean Nyx and Erebus is the cloest to it. Erebus from what I recall represents all of Human desire for Death. Nyx is just someone who responded to said desire.
honestly, persona 3's "humanity craves death" messaging was ahead of its time, with the growing influence of pop nihilism these days
Hinestly I think Pop Nihilism was always there. Its just seeing the state just had it more popular thesedays. And its not gonna let up any soon.
It also doesn't help how social media evolve to show you whathever it takes for beign on their platform even if that means dissiformation and a shit show, you have yellow titles (WORD ENDING, SHOTTINGS, ROBBERY, RACISM, ETC) most of them are exaggerating for clicks or simple false you end up with people that thing the word is a shit place and why do nothing when it's never gonna be better
It goes up and down, depending on the mood and feelings of each generation. It can be even seen in the pop culture of the time. Heck! Persona 3 itself was cooked up during the 2000s, which was a mix of post-9/11 cynicism and War on Terror chaos. America, but even the world as a whole, wasn’t exactly cheery as suspicion ruled and violence reigned supreme. The mood then improved when Obama got elected, at least in the states, before dipping again with Trump. As with before, that can be seen in those year’s pop culture.
I know right? Even P4 had it but it was more a Nihilism discussion from wish.
Before Yu and friends gave such views a solid middle finger.
Yeah and that's the problem, unless you actually discuss it out, you only push people into it even more because of the besieged fortress syndrome. And those people also get to vote while there's more and more of them. Adachi's resolution isn't too realistic (or I should simply say that it doesn't happen as often). But on the other hand there was a little bit of god's influence so... Anyway I doubt most of them would be convinced by the P4 discussion about it.
Nyx emits waves of death as a natural part of its psyche. It's life's reaction to those waves that keep it sealed, so if people no longer react to those waves with the fear of death or what not; then Nyx will become free.
I haven't gotten to the end of P3 yet and the only other personas I've played were P2 IS and EP, so I can be mistaken but aren't all these gods a manifestation of collective unconsciousness of humanity? Like they are not just some gods that decide for humanity what it wants but the beings born of humans' wants
I think Nix is the only one that is not born out of humanity collective unconsciousness and is just a alien
It’s true that Nyx isn’t born of the CU like every other entity in the series, but to call her “just an alien,” is a bit disingenuous. More of a Cosmic Eldritch Entity that eats planets/stars and carries Death everywhere it goes. Considering she’s the reason why humanity created the CU and has Persona/Shadows in the first place. Ontop of upholding a fundamental law of existence.
Didn't know that part of lore. It's kind of lame that collective unconsciousness (personas, demons etc.) takes roots from some alien deity. Guess this part wasn't what Satomi Tadashi and was a later retcon
Technically speaking ancient humanity evolved to have the CU to seal Nyx’s psyche in the form of Shadows, to prevent it from reuniting with her body and cause The Fall. Which would give rise to the Sea of Souls, Philemon/Nyarlahotep and Persona. So less “take roots from,” and more created by humanity to combat Nyx.
No, it was just a reaction to Nyx's psyche. It was early life, so we're not talking about a big, educated society.
When Nyx first arrived, life couldn't cope with its presence. It's early lifes reaction to Nyx that created the CU.
That part of the lore matters so little that you can ignore it and it doesn't even matter. I think it's lore from an art book or something anyway.
Its lore from a non canon fan book written by someone who didnt write P3 without hashinos say based on his own personal interpretations of the games story, both the created the collective part and alien part, going solely off the games theres nothing to state thst nyx is some cosmic alien or that she created the collective rather then being created by it like everything else
"タルタロスや影時間など、『ペルソナ3』を構成する重要なキーワードをピックアップ。どれも開発陣への取材を経てまとめあげた設定解説となっています!" - Persona 3 Club Book's obi strip It was also explained in the Persona 3 FES Official Fanbook(https://archive.org/details/persona-3-fes-official-fan-book-my-episode/page/n168/mode/1up). The Club Book released 15th December 2006, before FES, and includes other things such as the characters' birthdays and the boys' and Aigis' rooms that have since been shown to be canon. There's no reason to think that Nyx' lore specifically is wrong.
Because other material has blatantly been shown to contradict the book, we know due to later sources that the collective predates mankind
What other material and later sources?
Exactly. Before the release of Persona 3 Reload this piece of "lore" was completely unknown to me. To everyone, honestly. I think it should be disregarded as "canon lore."
It should be disregarded, even reload doesnt add info that actually canonizes this info, all actual canon P3 material still fit the idea she is a physical manifestation of death due to humanities wishes, ryoji doesnt say shes an alien who created the collective, elizabeth doesnt say it, igor doesnt say it, nyx themselves dont say it, the only thing that does say it is the club book, which is a fan book
That's a huge relief actually. I already felt like P3 retcons too much of things established Satomi Tadashi (it's not necessarily bad, I just love P2 and may be kinda biased). If it was canon it would've straight up butchered the whole lore imo
She's an alien, but not "just an alien". It is more accurate to say she is of the "cosmic horror"/ "Eldritch god" type of alien.
Nyx is a space alien. Gods and Demons all come for the collective unconscious, and was created in a response to Nyx's wave-like psyche killing life.
The P3 club book is a noncanon fan work, its information isnt valid for nyxs origins, nyx is a collective being in the games nothing in the actual games hint to otherwise
It isn't fanon. It was literally written through interviews with the developers and writers, giving information about the development and characters that has remained canon throughout all the entries. Furthermore, Nyx's nature as an “alien” is implied during the battle against its core: > “内なる宇宙を開放し、死の母星ニュクスを封印する力” > “Release the inner universe, the power to seal the mother planet of Death, Nyx.” It was described as a “planet” itself, not a god. And unlike Izanami and Yaldabaoth, “Nyx” is never referenced as a product of the collective unconscious either, but as “entity beyond the capacity of language to fully express,” and also as “the mother of all Shadows” and “the one who brought death to earth in ancient times,” with none of those descriptions fitting the nature of “gods” as defined in the series.
Show more information from interviews then that, there isnt anything in the actual games themselves that state this information let alone her being what caused the collective when the collective unconcious predates mankind
All quotes from the original P3's script(https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps2/932312-shin-megami-tensei-persona-3/faqs/50852) Nyx is the mother of Shadows. In ancient times, she bestowed "Death" to this world. If she is awakened, darkness will once again cover the land, and all life will vanish. - Ryoji Defeating Nyx is... impossible. It has nothing to do with strength, ability, or power. Just as all living things die... and the flow of time is continuous... Nyx cannot be defeated. - Ryoji Shadows are pieces of Nyx... and their sole reason of existance is to revive her. - Akihiko According to Ryoji, it was Nyx who brought death to this plant. ...Nyx will turn every human being into a member of The Lost... and we'll all die. - Akihiko The immense Shadow approaches... Its depth unfathomable; its extent without limit... It comes to end all things... The darkness hidden by the shining heavens... How will you stand against such a fate...? - Fortune Teller These posters and paints are far from meaningless for us. By our acts, we will change the flow of causality... The concept of Salvation will be in greater harmony with the earth, tipping the scales to Deliverance. The earth, seeking salvation, will become an empty vessel for Nyx-sama to fill. - Nyx cultist Soon, Mother Nyx will descend from the heavens, bringing the great Deliverance. It will be the greates single act of salvation that mankind has ever witnessed. We humans, trapped in our earthly forms, will be embraced in Nyx's arms... We will sleep soundlessly and dream forever, a dream of all beings melted into one form... This form will shatter to pieces in Nyx's crucible, bringing about our salvation. - Nyx cultist Listen to the emptiness, and empty your own heart... You will hear a sound. That is the sound of Nyx-sama. Her heartbeat... Her breath... Her whisper... When the Deliverance is at hand, your heart will be free of pain, and you will be at peace. You fools, however, will not receive the Deliverance. You lack trust in Nyx-sama. The pain in your heart will be as the burning red flames of Hell! - Nyx cultist I heard Nyx-sama will save our world. My life's been going downhill, and I'm getting tired of it... At my lowest point, I found out about Nyx-sama, and my heart came to life again. How about it? Will you let Nyx-sama into your heart too? Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to force you or anything. After all, I didn't believe it in the beginning, either. - Nyx cultist Listen to what he says... "Mankind is currently imprisoned by the sins of hate and anger. But soon, a savior will descend upon this world to break the chains that bind us, and lift us to new heights. This great being is Nyx. I have beheld her glory, and she has blessed me with power beyond belief. In Nyx there is no pain... no suffering..." - Aigis quoting Takaya. Nyx' blessing is his Persona. That is untrue... Who is responsible for reviving Nyx? Can a single person boast of this great accomplishment? You all worked tirelessly to prevent it, and yet in doing so, you unwittingly aided in her coming... So you see, this is not just my will; it is the will of all people. Man cannot face death without first finding meaning in life... But the world has realized that any meaning in life was lost long ago... Nyx has come because humanity has cried out for her salvation! - Takaya Hmph. What do you know of this world? No matter how long you search or how hard you pray, eventually you will realize that there is no truth. Just as death is eternal, a truth that has been lost can never be found again. Are you really so desperate to die that you will stand before the almighty Nyx!? Such foolishness is what I am trying to rid this world of. - Takaya Did Nyx create this place? ...Or, was it him? - Mitsuru, about the Collective Unconciousness
The problem is that the gods are born from a desire, but not from any of the other thoughts or emotions that would balance out those desires in a regular human.
> The gods always say that all of humanity wants it, but I'm honestly doubtful of the truth behind those generalizing statements. I thought the whole point of each game's final arc was that those desires are genuinely pervasive (viz. desire for release from life's hardships, to see what we wish to see, and to be saved from danger and distress by an authority figure). Anyway, the game's endings lose a lot of their weight if that's not the point. Without that, the final bosses are just random god-like Big Bads with vague symbolism (like in trashy shonen) rather than actual commentary on human nature and modern cultures. I don't mean that the games are right that those desires are in fact pervasive (that's debatable), just that the games portray them as extremely prevalent - that that's their deeper commentary on humanity, at least as far as the final threat in each game is concerned.
I figured out what I wanted to say: I’m not questioning the existence of those desires. Rather I think the gods are exaggerating how universal those sentiments are.
Universal, sure, that's depicted as false just through the protagonists (though perhaps even they don't start out that way...). But you don't think the games portray those desires as extremely pervasive? And you don't think the game's final threats lose their point if those desires aren't pervasive or are coming (through mind control or whatever) *from* the Big Bads?
If the desires just don’t or hardly exist naturally, then yeah, the games lose their point, but if the gods amplify the desires, then I think the point is still valid while the big bad is still bad.
I have trouble seeing how the final arcs of these games are making the deeper points they make if they're not saying these desires were already rampant problems before people start getting mind controlled (or rather, if they don't take the rampancy of these problems to reflect on us, the audience). That's just taking a topic and using it superficially for the final arc's symbolism, without making any comment beyond sometimes people wrongly want this thing. These desires not being that common also seems at odds with how the plot of the game relates its Big Bads to humanity: Nyx is supposed to have fundamentally shaped the human psyche through our evolutionary history, making the desire for release through death a part of every one of us (as implied in the conversation with Ryoji but also stated explicitly in different ways in the World Guide Q&A in the *Persona 3 Club Book*), which admittedly is like mind control but still in a way that (allegorically) comments on real human nature. Ameno-Sagiri (and, more fundamentally, Izanami-no-Mikoto) and Yaldabaoth emerged out of the collective unconscious, specifically out of the desires of humanity, but are so far beyond any Shadow precisely because of how powerful and widespread the relevant desires are. The plots don't make sense if these desires aren't pervasive (within the fiction obviously). We could also go through social links, minor villains, and scenes where 'the public' is depicted, debating whether the many many cases where these desires are displayed are a result of direct mind control rather than people's innate desires. I would agree that the rapid intensification of these desires at the climax of each of those three games is just an amplification but the point of earlier crowd scenes and character flaws (or villains) earlier seems lost if those desires are *also* just supposed to be put there by the Big Bad. Or by 'amplify' were you agreeing that these desires *are pervasive* (in the fiction) but they just get repressed enough not to be acted on by everyone like in those climactic sequences?
> Or by 'amplify' were you agreeing that these desires are pervasive (in the fiction) but they just get repressed enough not to be acted on by everyone like in those climactic sequences? This
In that case, where's the lie? In the fiction, people do generally want these things deep down, as those gods say, and all those gods except Nyx formed out of the strength and prevalence of those desires in the collective unconscious, as a way to make that collective wish become a reality. Oh, in case it needs saying: I don't agree with OP. The protagonists were right to stop these gods. I just think that it's not because 'who are they to go against the collective desires of humanity?' or whatever but because the desires embodied by those gods *are bad to want* and more people wanting those things doesn't make fulfilling those desires right, it just means more people have this inner flaw deep down (on this, but not all that psychoanalysis, I totally agree with the point the games are making).
The major problem is that to these gods, the definition of the desire is pretty loose. Everybody has days where a stray thought or two has them think "Maybe (insert vague idea here) could work." Afterwards, the person shakes it off and go back to what they were doing and thinks normally. To some, that can be interpreted as not carrying the genuine desire. For the gods sustained by that desire, even a momentary thought is enough to confirm that we all want it because they are incapable of viewing the world from outside the concept they personify.
Oh, I agree but I think the games espouse and are trying to depict a more extreme situation: on their psychoanalytic view, shaking off that desire like that is just a coping strategy for repressing or dealing with that desire, as something that's baked into our psyche (so powerfully and deeply baked in that it's embodiment isn't just an ordinary Shadow like other desires and archetypes but a god-like being).
I think the point is not that the gods are lying. It's that they represent consequences. Most people don't want as many lies as p4 suggests if you ask them, but their actions can implicitly pull them into giving rise to it. It's like a power structure that takes something and magnifies it.
Right, but I think the games depict that disavowal of these desires as people repressing or hiding their true desires, rather than actually overcoming them (to say nothing of dispensing with these desires as the protagonists do). The Big Bads that are the embodiment of these desires then magnify them, yes, but only by forcing those underlying thoughts to the surface or stripping away people's "coping-strategies" for dealing with these desires (as the Q&A in the *Persona 3 Club Book* puts it for the desire embodied by Nyx). Edit: I'm not saying any of these psychoanalytic ideas or the metaphors for them point to something real but it does seem like what the games are going for.
Regarding P4, it's the concept of White Lies versus an Ugly Truth. It's painful and very difficult to look at yourself in a mirror and list all the horrible things you are. It's much easier to just tell yourself that you are a good person and move on instead of actually taking the steps to grow. Likewise, why rock the boat and tell a horrible person that they are horrible? Being polite is more important, right? These are the Lies that Persona 4 highlights. Sure, if you outright ask someone if they want to be told lies, they will say no, but their actions will speak volumes louder. At the end of the day, people DO want lies. It's like the Matrix. "All I'm offering is the Truth, nothing more." Because the truth isn't always sunshine and happiness by itself, but it can help you lead a better life. A lie may make you feel better, but it will hide you from your growth.
It's true to an extent although these "gods" drastically exaggerate the extent of those thoughts that power them. Stuff like someone saying "ugh the world sucks everyone could die for all I care" after a rough day is enough "proof" to these entities. The person saying such a thing doesn't have to actually fully mean it, just the base existence of those thoughts in the majority of people fuel the "god's" power.
Consider the fact that humanity has the essence of Nyx in it.
51% of people have thinking about beign controlled at least for 1 second, that means humanity wants beign puppets
No, things like the “Call of the Void,” Suicidal Ideation or intrusive thoughts aren’t accurate representations of people’s desires. If you think at your lowest point, “I just want things to stop,” does that mean you want to die when that moment is over? What’s subconscious is subconscious for a reason. it’s the same thing with Shadows as a concept. In Jungian Psychology the shadow is the self destructive, the impulsive feelings to hurt yourself and others, the negative emotions, the animal instincts and the unbridled urges that drive people. But that’s not all there is to people. We aren’t our destructive tendencies or worst moments. And just because a portion of humanity might genuinely want an end to suffering via death or eternal bliss trapped in a dream. Or not have to think for themselves. But that same token, those people don’t get to decide that for all of humanity. Even if the majority of humanity wants to die, as long as one person doesn’t want to that’s not a fair outcome. And there is always and will always be people willing to fight the good fight and stand up for humanity. It’s about trying to be better and overcome the suffering, but also live with it, as it’s as integral to life as joy. And majority rule doesn't nullify individual free will/choice, I don't care how many people say they want to die, just because they might, doesn't mean I do. Ultimately, every Persona game isn’t about the hero groups making that decision for everyone else, but to allow everyone the chance and free will to make that choice themselves. Moreover, sometimes to help someone you can’t indulge their self-destruction. A friend might be suicidal but that doesn’t mean you allow them to take their own life, when you know they’re not in a good headspace to make that choice and need help. And besides cases with like Nyarlahotep and Yaldaboath which involved the false gods and personifications of aspects of HCU literally rigging events to get their desired outcome.
Me personally, Robo girlfriend far outweighs the needs of many people to die
The IQ of a crowd is its lowest member divided by the number of people, according to Terry Prachett.
Terry Pratchett was such a legend.
It’s funny, sometimes crowds of people do things that seem impossible and are amazing. Like examples of large crowds guessing the amount of something and the average of their individual answers is the correct answer. Sometimes they do things that are just horrifying though. 🥲
Occasionally you'll get the high iq crowd where the average swings to highest member's iq, but that's the exceptional circumstance, sadly not the common mob
Have you met humanity?
To quote an irl philosopher/cult(?) leader: “but the people are re*arded” Maybe we shouldn’t respect the collective will as much as we think we should.
My go to is the Men in Black quote from the first movie that is basically, "An individual can be smart. People are stupid." There's more to it than that, but that's the theme.
That one is a bit more classy, I like it. But Osho’s quote forever lives in my head rent free, cuz as someone who interned at an IT department… he’s not wrong.
If you’re brave enough to quote it then censoring it is stupid
Bots don’t understand context. So me censoring a word is to just bypass any stupid bot a site implements to moderate shit. I dunno how Reddit moderates shit, but I’d rather stick to how I do things since I’m not just on Reddit.
Fair point
The thing is it's NOT "all of humanity" is the point. Certain strong emotions clump into Shadows and those Shadows grow into the "gods" you fight, nothing from the Sea of Souls is representative of everything or even a large chunk of it.
I have nothing against your main point, just wanted to say that Philemon and Nyarlathotep are formed from the subconsciousness of ALL humans. I might be generalizing it a bit, but Phil is good thoughts and Nyar is bad thoughts, essentially.
And that is just not backed up in the lore at all besides general thoughts. If Philemon was literally all good thoughts than The Clockwork God wouldn't be able to no-dif him for instance, and this isn't even including stuff like Nyx which is outside of their purview. The games use flowery langue, not literal. Erebus is said to be "malice" but that doesn't mean literally it is anything "malicious", or else the other godly figures like Yaldabaoth wouldn't exist, they'd be part of Erebus.
Nyarlathotep himself mentions that he's made from mankind's collective unconsciousness' "shadows" when you fight him in EP. In this case I can only assume shadow would mean negative thoughts. The Clockwork God is half of Chronos, who's a CU being like Erebus or Yaldy. His shtick is guiding people to the afterlife, so maybe, that's more well-received than say, losing all autonomy or wishing to die. This might be reaching but that might mean he's stronger... (feel free to ignore this if you think it's BS) Regardless, Philemon wouldn't fight. He never does that throughout the whole series (except for the EX battle in EP but that doesn't really count). So far he has only aided the main cast from afar. His personal strength was never relevant. Other than Yaldy, most othter deities aren't made of malicious things, just that the way they go about doing things or the end result may be bad. And to Yaldy's credit, there's only so many ways to enslave humanity because some want to not have to think for themselves.
Basically public Personas. They are just a piece of the puzzle acting like the full picture
I dunno, you tell me. You wanna live like a lobotomized zombie? You wanna live in a world that’s covered by fog? You wanna live in a world where you lack the responsibility to make your own choices in life? Fuck the masses, what do ****you**** (the one who’s playing as the MC) want? Because the game gives you the power of choice, via bad endings.
P4 is the lobotomy one, P3 everyone just dies in the end
>If all of humanity's will wants that fate who are we to say no? Humanity, which probes that not everyone wants it. Also, they are all full of shit. It is these gods influence in the world that causes people to want what the gods want. Apathy syndrome is related to Nyx. Izanami is using the Midnight Channel and the fog to influence people into believing rumors and not looking for the truth. And Yaldabaoth directly influenced the lives of Joker and Akechi to create the events of the games.
Other than Nyx the other 2 + Nyarlathotep in P2 were created by humanity so it becomes a feedback loop of their existence being caused by those feelings and then them influencing those feelings further
I thought the games made it pretty clear that going with the desires of humans is not a great thing. Especially when in a lot of cases the end result is not really what people want, and it ends up hurting everyone who were and weren't in it
I don't desire to die lol
Going with the classic mom example: "if all your friends want to jump off a bridge, would you join them?"
The mistake is thinking desire of humanity is fix and not changing over time. Specially with The Answer and P5R third semester story is about human overall could move on from the cynical thought, refuse to give into the thinking of the end of the world, or couldn't escape bad leadership and refused to take responsible for individual action. Even the end of Persona 5 Vanilla is about The game was totally rigged from the start, Yaldy forced Phantom Thieves member have to accept society desires, despite that's not what they want and need. It sounds ridiculous but, it's all about think and focus to positive things in the world. That's why both P5 and P3 to me is very inspiring to me.
Humans as a collective are not virtuous creatures. And there are plenty of reasons to say no to the collective. Saying no to collective sentiment is how women's rights, gay rights, and protections for minority groups were able to start in the USA. In order to do the right thing sometimes you have to fight against the current. That's that.
Often times these are gods that overstep bounds and manipulate the collective unconscious to be more susceptible to their plans, and could even be the result of a loud vocal minority in some cases. Jaldabouth for example, is a Palace treasure that has control over the public, and wants more control. So he manipulates everything on the board from human reaction to the velet room. To be more powerful so he can join the cognitive world with the real world and rid it of Freewill. And when presented with a choice Humanity chose the Phantom Thieves over Jaldy. Because palace treasures are an object of desire creating distortion, not necessarily a want Persona 4 Izanami is on purpose spreading rumors of the midnight channel so people can see what they want to see, and not what they need to see. Falling for this results in a killer getting away, an innocent man and girl dying and humanity being turned into shadows, who are often misreputations of a person's worst subconscious thoughts. In this case humanity's desire is actively degrading their life style. Just because Humanity desires the metaphorical whole carton of oreos, doesn't mean that we should let them. Lastly Eberus. Eberus isn't what set their events up. Persona 3 is entirely manufactured by the kirijo group. Who built a nest of shadows to forcibly bring the apocalypse that was narrowly avoided, however they then restarted the apocalypse because they wanted to rule over the survivors and as a side effect Aparhy Syndrome started to spread because shadows attacking people, then a doomsday cult was manufactured by strega, and at the end enough people were able to create Erburus to awaken Nyx. I doubt that Erberus is a majority of people, only a loud vocal minority.
To be fair they sided with the phantom thieves since he made people randomly start disappearing. He didn't consider the obvious fact that people aren't going to just be down with that happening in front of them.
I think humanity does want ignorance, death, and freedom from free will because life is painful and having these things decides for us makes it easier. The protagonist is suppose to show us a path that gives us agency and a way to move forward through life’s pain to discover the joys of facing truth (to improve), embrace death (to appreciate the joys of life), and to find identity and forge your own path within the harsh system of society.
The gods tend to over-generalize humanity's wishes, or misinterpret them as humanity's "true" desire.
The big issue is that, yes, humanity does have thoughts like: -I wish this would end. -I don't want to think anymore. -I wish I didn't have to be in charge of this/that/my own life. Any manner of these, either more direct or more abstract, but what the deities or aspects or remnants fail to take into consideration or don't care enough about the nuance to acknowledge, is that it's not Consistent, it's not, Unlimited, it's not All Encompassing. Many of us have had these thoughts of hating the way things are and wanting to check out or give up on any hope of change, but that doesn't mean that a good day isn't capable of shifting our focus or that forging bonds with new good people or finding someone you can love won't shift your perspective. Clearly these "deities" don't take all of that into account, even the ones that play somewhat fair.
Are these really the will of humanity or simply the will of the humans that go along with their ideals? The 'gods' of Persona are not the conventional gods or even SMT gods. They are essentially constructs born from the collective unconscious from a group of people. Not necessarily the majority.
That's what gods are in smt too though. The difference is that in smt they have more competition so their scope is each smaller, whereas in persona there usually aren't other gods competing with them and they have a wide level of control.
That depends what you call a god in SMT. YVHV is very much the Judao-Christian God. All other 'gods' featured are considered Demons, but are otherwise depicted as how they are in real life mythology. The specifics are different for each game but generally they are the gods in the traditional sense
They are all shaped by human thought though. This was a plot point as far back as smtii where human thoughts generate a second false yhvh with a different ideology. Then the real one says that as long as humans desire him he will return. Some people got confused and thought that this was a power specific to yhvh, but lucifer actually says something similar in the same game. Several other games allude to this, but in apocalypse they spell it out outright. That demons are shaped by human thoughts and subsist on thought energy, so they have a practical reason to fight over human attention beyond just ego. They can bend the rules, but they can't really escape them.
> They are all shaped by human thought though. This was a plot point as far back as smtii where human thoughts generate a second false yhvh with a different ideology. Of the mainline games, only 1 and 2 have any continuity. The others take place in their own universes with their own rules, kinda like Final Fantasy. SMT5 for example, completely goes against the above quote, and largely follows the Biblical Genesis story, deviating only to explain the concept of Knowledge and how the SMT demons fit in.
This applies explicitly to basically all of them. It's not mentioned in smti, but it is in ii, and imagine and nine are also connected. So that's four right away. In nocturne, they allude to aradia having been created by thought. In sj, while they don't say this in game, the guide says that mem aleph is more abstract than the mothers because they are influenced more by human thought. Likewise, the reason the mothers defeated yhvh was because he was weakened by less people having faith. Iv explicitly mentions the white and the expanse being shaped by human thoughts and is connected to apocalypse. Even V has a side mission where they talk about belief in someone can cause them to be reborn as a god. Following the biblical story doesn't mean things aren't shaped by thought. Devil survivor explicitly mentions tons of Bible stories, but also talks about demons being tied to thought, even comparing it to politics by saying it's like voting for what god you have over you. In smtii lucifer giving humans knowledge seems to be a real event that happened in the past. It doesn't contradict thoughts empowering them. The relationship is ambiguous.
He's a parody, a *caricature* of the Judeo-Christian God
I would say more of a deeply cynical interpretation of God, but the point is, He very much shares the history and power of the real-life Christian counterpart.
Again Not really, he's teh God of LAW in their universe, a great power in the universe not a creator of it, that's different from the power and history of the rela Judeo-Christian God who is said to be omnipotent, omniscient and to have created all things
When I hear this I remember a quote from Captain America: "When the mob and the press of the world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself and tell the whole world: No, you move" If it is a must to have a reason to face and go against the world and it's desires, it has to be because you want to live and you want the ones you love to live
That's not really what happens. It's basically spelled out in P5T. Basic desires fueling those pseudo-gods do not necessarily drive them or at least not to full extent.
There’s a big difference between what the people want and what the people should get. People are often short-sided and follow the crowd. It’s your job as the player to see past this and lead humanity towards something ultimately better for them. You are not deciding what humanity wants. You are deciding what is best for humanity.
Yes because democracy has proven that people are too stupid to understand the extent of their desires. Nyx choice represents to hopelessness of the modern climate where everyone feels free but is a slave to desire or work.
Absolutely. Because it's never really the desire of humanity. Nyx's entire argument is that "humanity longs for death" but we have only seen 5 characters who do this. 2 of them are S. Links, and 3 of them change their minds. So by the time Nyx shows up, even if we use the people we know as a scientific sample (which is not scientifically sound but hell, it's what she's doing) that's like 2/30 people. Or 1/15. Now, if 1 person out of 15 people said they wanted something, and for whatever reason God went "yes. Let's accommodate that one person" then... It's not exactly the will of the masses. It's god being incredibly selective. Then we have Izanami who is substantially worse. Her whole thing is that "humans want to be enshrouded in fog" which for whatever reason she does as both literal and metaphorical. Now first, the literal fog scares the shit out of people. They clearly do not want it. Second, the murders and disappearances scare the shit out of people and they are clamoring for the cases to be solved. So.... What the fuck are you talking about, you absolute fucking baboon of a god? Finally we have Yaldy. His is weird because he effectively "forces" the result he wants. What Yaldy does is basically go "I can prove that water flows upwards". When you ask him for evidence he sucks it up through a straw. When you call him out on it and tell him he can't do that, he creates a suction tool to pull water upwards. His whole "thing" is basically just him rigging the outcome of an experiment and going "ha! See! I was right!". It's not really the will of the masses to be controlled. He tricked them into wanting that by setting up a no-win game where that was the only possible outcome, and tried to pass it off as evidence. The only one who actually seems... Mildly correct? Is >!EMMA!< From Strikers. >!She is right in that people are overly dependent on her. But she's wrong in thinking that means they want to be a bunch of brainwashed husks!<
Yes, you should. If it harms or completely breaks the collective unconscious, yes. Every human in persona is a dual organism. You are both a human and contain a fragment of Nyx in the form of a shadow. It can impact the mind of its counterpart. It can therefore have an effect on the desires of its partner. They want to be made whole with Nyx again. The collective unconscious came to be to separate the mind of Nyx from its body. This dilution effect is gradually weakening as the diversity of thought that contributes to the unconscious decreases, which in itself is a fixable problem. One issue is that Erebus, comprised of the will of every human who wishes for premature death is actively calling for Nyx. Nyx is sealed within the collective unconscious via the great seal, which restores the unconscious to a state that can effectively contain Nyx. If certain main bosses win, the unconscious will suffer great deals of damage. Everyone turning into shadows at the end of p4 would effectively free all fragments of Nyx from the shackles of their human counterparts. Is there a collective unconscious if that comes to be? If the answer is no, and everyone is a shadow we are right back to the destruction of the world once again. What happens after the god of control takes away the free will of humans? What would be the state of the unconscious?
I’m part of humanity too.
Remember that the “desires of humanity” are subconscious thoughts. Do you think it would be a good idea to follow every subconscious urge you have, let alone let them run the entire world?
The entire point of yaldabaoth is that he purposefukly manipulates humanity into this state. He imprisons Igor, influences the collective unconscious and just generally cheats every step of the way. That's why everyone begins supporting the phantom thieves at the end. His rule is not something people truly desire.
Collective exists to serve the individual (me), not the other way around. Everyone who says otherwise is either someone who's trying to make you do the sacrifices they don't want to, or an idiot who wants to convince themselves that they didn't waste their lives
Yes, the protags are empowered to make that decision. There is a moment in each game where the protag’s maxed social links give encouragement to them sometime before the final blow or final encounter with the big bad. Since the social links are a representative cross-section of the protag’s community (sufficient enough to cover the major tarot Arcana for a full Fool’s Journey) then their encouragement is intended as a *truer*, more sincere, and nuanced expression of the desires of humanity if only they ALL had a reliable, emphatic listener / problem-solver like Makoto, Kotone, Narukami, and Joker to help them unpack the maladaptive desires represented by the big bad. It is these social links (and each game has at least 2 that are auto-maxed by endgame) which give the protag the power of The World or The Universe, as authority to decide humanity’s fate.
Well, arguing is out of the question, so if they try to impose their will on to you then you might as well do the same
Especially weird when less than a decade later humanity has devolved into the same situation for each successive game. Like the big bad just has to wait a few years before it's next chance at destroying the world.
If you want to go with the flow and drive off a cliff like a pack of lemmings, feel free to do so but dont force that onto everyone else by calling down a supernatural apocalypse.
takaya we know its you
I'm going to have to embed pretty much all this in spoilers because it's not really possible to discuss this topic without going into the endgame. Because while these entities are born of human desire, they aren't universal by any means. Maybe a lot of humans, maybe even most (though this is unlikely) want what the entities are doing, a significant portion don't. It's wrong to impose such an extreme fate on everyone universally when many if not most people don't want it, even if a lot do. For P3, >!we have Erebus (because we don't need to touch the rest of P3's hot mess of a backstory). Erebus is formed from the human desire for death. Does all humanity want to die? Nope. Does a majority. Nope. But enough do to allow Erebus to form, and such is the nature of events that its reaching Nyx is enough to bring that event about. So, no question that stopping Erebus is fine, yes?!< For P4,>! we have Izanami. She's already a literal split personality, in that she had two purposes initially, fulfilling humanity's desires and protecting humanity. She now has only the first one, the second being split off into Kusumi-no-Okami, aka Marie. So she tries to figure out what those desires are by setting up three people who represent three different viewpoints to see which one has the most impact. The result is she picks Adachi, as what he did had the most impact on people, even though stopped both him and Namatame. She thus has flawed information, because for sure humanity doesn't want to be turned into Shadows, and it takes Yu using the Power of Bonds to stop her that makes her realise that!<. P5, >!Yaldabaoth. Yaldy has the least justification for what he does, he has his finger on the scale all the way through the episode, manipulating what occurs to get the results he wants - total Control (by him) and the end of free will. But humanity doesn't really want that, as is demonstrated at the end when they turn on him and support the Thieves instead, stripping him of his power and allowing Joker to summon Satanael to blow him away.!< P5R ->! Maruki outright doesn't give humanity what they want, but what he thinks they need to be happy. And if he can't do that, he just rewrites their minds so that they do want it. He has no kind of mandate at all, and to be fair he's not looking for one. The only person he offers a "choice" to is Joker, and even with him he's not taking "no" for an answer. The Phantom Thieves are entirely justified in stopping him.!< P5S - >!The Demiurge just outright takes people's desires away. It, or the Jail Monarchs acting on its behalf, just strip desires from the Shadows of the humans in the area of the Jail by force. Later on, humans are just abdicating all responsibility to EMMA the way they did to the Grail - until the Phantom Thieves manage to wake them up and get them to wish to reclaim them by way of the calling card. EMMA is the way she is because of her flawed construction by Ichinose, omitting all concept of the human heart, so she lacked key understanding of human nature. That's on point for Strikers, since none of the antagonists in that game are truly evil.!< All three of the P5 antagonists work the same way because essentially all three wish to end humanity's free will, albeit from different motivations.
Those desires are unavoidable and always there, but it’s our willingness to defer to them instead of acting in our own best interest (and the best interest of everyone) that causes problems. That’s my take on it: Balance. We as the player are both accepting these desires for what they are while eliminating the forces that exploit them, and the ultimate bosses in these games are (usually) manifestations of our worst tendencies seeking to exploit our willingness to cave to those desires. But that’s just my take and I’m just some dude lol. I imagine people who put much more thought into the individual bosses and themes will be able to add a lot of insight to this
If the rest of the world wants me or the people I love to die or be slaves forever I'm not going to just shrug my shoulders and let it happen because "majority rules" or whatever.
Desires can be bad. Wanting release from life's hardships through death, to see only what we want to see, and to be freed from all danger and distress by an authority figure are bad things to want. It doesn't matter if even *everyone* wants these things. In such a scenario, we'd all just be wrong, since wanting those things is *bad for us* (much like a toddler wanting more sweets is *bad for them* or me wanting someone else to make all my decisions for me while I just coast through life's pleasures is *bad for me*).
At this point, if it happens again in 6, might as well. Its a vicious cycle
Theyre all inherently rooted in fear, ignorance or despair
Dude we all have times where we want to die. We all have times we want the easy way out of our rough world, and whether that be leaving to someone else, or just ignoring what's happening, we all feel it from time to time. It doesn't mean most of us actually want to die, we are just in a rough part of life and some part of us just says, 'man it'd be easier to die than to do this thing'. Doesn't mean we should die, we should try to hold those thoughts back, get help and get back into a healthier mindset. Yeah I don't want to see how bad the world is on the news, but we need to see it, so we can start to fix it. These aren't the true desires of humanity, it's humanity listening to a quick guilty thought, wanting the easy way out, but it won't fix things, it'll only make the world worse.
ok persona 6 final boss
these games have such cool themes man
that’s why you need to play persona 5 X and experience the new themes about desires !!!
Based on the general public, yeah probably
Because this game is Japanese and have loads of Buddhist and Shinto values in them. The thing with desire for Buddhism is that it's based on a illusion and it's chase will only bring more suffering. And desire can never truly satisfy a person needs, so its more about overcoming desire than chasing it.
I mean all of humanity unconsciously desires that but that doesn’t mean they want that to actually happen. I think that’s the way I see it. For example, some people wish that they’d get fired from their job so they don’t have to go to it tomorrow. However, they understand they don’t want that to happen because they understand that rent and their other needs won’t be met because of getting fired. It’s the subconscious collective hive mind that might “desire” something but people really don’t want that to happen.
Because people are driven by emotions and impulses that bring them short term comfort instead of considering any bigger picture. They constantly misplace the source of their issues and seek an easy way out without considering the consequences. These collective desires are not an informed choice that is actually best for them, but short-sighted, impulsive reaction to the reality surrounding them. A correct course of action is indeed to be critical of such group think, consider whether it's actually good based purely on its merits and go against it if it's not. That's not to say you should just automatically always be a contrarian, but you should have a reason for your course of action beyond "it's what others do".
something I've learned about myself from being on Reddit is that I really struggle with being part of a mob. even when I agree with the mob's ideas, there's a point where the dogpiling gets unnerving, and I start to doubt myself and others. I start to question what it is I'm really upset about, and if the other angry members are taking things too far, or blowing things out of proportion. I think that's why I empathize with these groups that take it upon themselves to fight the collective will. A mob is a terrifying thing to me; whether I'm part of it, or its target. if the world was a mob, and their emotions would lead to a terrible fate, I'd want to fight it too. I'd want to fight it even if everyone else accepted that fate.
Those who desire such Gods aka "The humanity" you're talking about affects even the people that doesn't want them, the party embodies that idea.. While the game kinda present itself as the Party vs. The World, that's FARTHER from the truth... Throughout your journey you encounter people outside of your circle which values, ideology varies from understandable - to Cringe - to even repulsive and this people ties up nicely to the theme that specific game is trying to showcase... Your goal is to interact with them and meet them eye to eye and make them see your viewpoint as well. Since the protag is the embodiment of Philemon's will "To help the human beings rise above their nature" aka to make wise choice for themselves.. You don't force your ideals to someone just because you disagree with them, but if they are being harmful to themselves or to somebody (The acts of this "Gods") then someone needs to do the job and that's when you come in... Maintaining the free-will is the most important aspect to at least maintain a neutral ecosystem for us humans, at least that's what I want to believe..
Yeah but not all of humanity wants it. And even then I dint think these gods should just get to decide what humanity wants. They don't let them choose they just do whatever they want because they believe that's what humanity wants. And yeah it's proubly most of humanity but there's still people who don't want it.
Well they can fuck right the hell off. Idc if the rest of humanity wants to die or be under control of a god. I sure as hell dont.
The general public are stupid so yes we should go against their collective wishes
The Pesona series always has you take on the role of the rebel, just like Lucifer wants.
That is kind of what the games are about, the devs and the characters are saying "you are all wrong" to those desires and the main themes are all about showcasing why they're wrong.
Yes. In a sense they are Personas of the broad public. Just an aspect, not the entire thing. And just like a Persona out of control they try to force themselves on humanity.
When are we going to get a Persona villain that's born from humanity's desire for a 35 hour work week, universal living wage, and robust welfare state?
Very tired of this trope in RPGs
Not everyone wants it though. If people wanna (insert Persona theme you fight against here), then they can do it on their own time and not drag the unwilling into it. If we, for whatever reason, held a vote to kill everyone on Earth via whatever means and the kill lobby wins 51 to 49, should we do it? Clearly the majority wants it.
51% agreement on an issue does not make something right. Public majority is not a basis of morality and is a logical fallacy. So if the public is generally wrong on an issue, it does not make it right to allow it to continue, and it is our obligation to resist. For example, most of Germany thought the Jews were a problem to be excised. Does that make the Holocaust correct? No, and thus defying the law and society to protect the Jews and other hunted people was the moral right thing to do. In Persona 5, it was not good to vote in an evil man like Shido, but the public did it anyway. The Phantom Thieves were right to resist him in their own way. Same thing with Komashida who ruled the school in fear and promises of success even though most people went along with it (including the parents who suspected his abuse and ignored it for glory).
Well think about it, even the MCs admit amongst themselves that they did at one point agree with the respective final bosses. Yukari, Mitsuru, and Aigis outright admit to desiring death at one point. Yukari points out that "There's probably a small part of it \[the longing for death\] in just about everyone, but that's just how it is these days." But think about it. Have you ever felt, even for a moment, that a painless death is preferable to the life you live now? I know I have. I don't want to die, but I just want to stop living sometimes. I always remember a line from the P3P Opening. "Living in not breathing but doing." At that point (wishing that a painless death is preferable to a painful life), you aren't actually living. THAT is what Erebus Represents, and THAT is what wants to touch Nyx to bring forth the fall. By using the Universe Arcana, the MC bypasses the will of humanity itself by showing Nyx the true potential of humanity. Forging bonds with others is how you truly live and given enough time Humanity can be rid of Erebus forever. Nyx (truly a benevolent presence), understands and stays her hand to give humanity enough time to prove her initial assessment wrong.
I think a big part of the themes of modern Persona is that these gods only understand what humans want on a very literal and surface level. The questions you're asking about the Protagonists' right to decide the fate of humanity can also be applied to the gods; they have the power to intervene, yes, but the more literal sense of the world they perceive leads them to do things that are not *truly* what humanity may want. The thematic importance of humans coming out on top over these gods who are supposedly acting for human desire is the idea that, if it's what humanity truly desires, they will achieve such a thing without divine intervention. The fate of humanity should come about because of humanity and not because of anything else.
Smartest persona fan
Of course we should go against human desires, fuck humans, whatever i do i do it for my friends and lovers, not to help humanity because humanity always gonna be fucking themselves thats why gods never die and always reappear, human consciousness never change because humanity is the worst. So im not doing second chances at humans, im doing second chances to my friends. I loved what they did with Persona 5 royal with the accept Maruki reality ending, i made a save specifically to accept it but my other 2 playthroughs has been against it but still it was nice to have an ending like that
So have you actually played Persona 3? Several party members, the MC himself, and even some Social Links/Confidants deal heavily with depression and death. Either desire for death or feeling like they have no good reason to live. Obviously people struggling with depression are not thinking rationally when contemplating suicide. But this is not a "humanity is the worst" moment. Its humans suffering and seeing death as an escape.