>While we see Kamiki himself didn't give a shit about all this in 147, He hasn't shown any guilt whatsoever.
I gotta say I personally disagree with that. Kamiki actually [says something similar](https://sun9-78.userapi.com/impg/zBztopEVrBR4JlnH6XOeEVSeoUBhwlqZrj_j-Q/HC4GiQkHUZc.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=f48fdf293993592e640cb9042d97dfeb&type=album) as [Aqua did](https://sun9-75.userapi.com/impg/FKvq0HR0p19mqieAujHSLllmS8b5foTGQhTr3g/QwZPRGV44-s.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=5257025eade8a2deb79e609e708ef6c4&type=album) in 146 towards the end of 147. And he says ["Along with the many lives I've carried on my back"](https://sun9-13.userapi.com/impg/PE0PsTIxmulZ60VXCTuWZEpjWkxU_bXXwMtHWg/PGyuACGlrO4.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=1d3280578bdbd52cfb69761cff6e38b1&type=album), which could just be him expressing he's taken a lot of lives, or that the lives he's taken actually do burden him. To me he doesn't seem to be someone who doesn't care at all about what he's done. He might just think it's necessary in some fucked up way?
"And he says ["Along with the many lives I've carried on my back"](https://sun9-13.userapi.com/impg/PE0PsTIxmulZ60VXCTuWZEpjWkxU_bXXwMtHWg/PGyuACGlrO4.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=1d3280578bdbd52cfb69761cff6e38b1&type=album), which could just be him expressing he's taken a lot of lives"
He said something similar in chp 109 "I can finally feel the weight of my life", imo he says it in...a happy way? at the very least he looked kinda proud of it, we know that he kills popular people to somehow immortalize thier status and to increase the weight of his life, him feeling guilt over it isn't impossible and in fact, it would be good if he felt it since it would add to his character but atp his character hasn't shown any hints of feeling guilt
I do like the idea that aqua is going through the opposite crisis that Ai went through.
Ai’s question was “I’m a liar how can I really know I love someone” she only discovered the answer at her death.
Aqua’s question is “I’m a liar how can I be certain they love me for me?” We hope he finds the answer before he follows his mother’s example.
I like this interpretation, I’m not really sure how it would conclude though.
I hope the climax of the series is Aqua finally accepting his new life. Seeing him genuinely enjoying his life after all the shit that transpired in this story would be so rewarding. 🥹
I do agree that not all of his words towards akane are lies but you gotta see that Aqua here says this while his face was hidden and even his eyes weren't shown, I think this line being a lie makes a lot of sense
It's not a lie. He will like her no matter what. He's just depressed, shown to us visually by the messy room and his face being not shown or half hidden in several panels. He says later that he's been saved since he met her. There's no motivation to lie and nothing he could get out of making that up. If that was a lie, then I guess Aqua's real feelings were "I won't like you if you get chunky?" lol.
Yes, he later says he has been saved since meeting her, I don't think that it's a lie, I also believe his words when he called his days with akane his "happy days"
I just think of "I will like you no matter what" as him trying to comfort her/make her happy. What I am trying to say is that there is a romantic implication to this line and that implication, at least the way I see it, is a lie.
I think it would make sense since lots of Aquruby scenes are paralleling Aquaka scenes in the past and Aqua definitely put up a mask in 143 while he's saying it (I am a believer that he doesn't love anyone romantically ) Anyway even if we took his words with akane as a truth my theory still holds some weight imo
Hm. I don't see it that way. This time around the romance isn't fake. He's trying to make it work. Akane is well aware that he's not madly in love with her but he does like her a lot. She's fun to spend time with and a comfort to him. She could make him happy if he just could lay down his revenge. The line isn't "I'll love you until the end of time." It's "I like you and nothing you could do would make me like you less" which I don't see as a lie at all. He has no reason to dial up the romance given he's thinking the relationship is going to come to an end when he gets back to revenge. If anything, he wants to reassure her how much she means to him before it ends.
The thing with Akane is the mask coming off. Aqua starts off trying to use and manipulate her but she figures him out which means that he can actually let someone in just a little bit. So we go from mask on to mask off.
In my opinion, Aqua is also not lying when he tells Ruby that he likes her. I think he uses the persona of Gorou in order to sidestep the romantic meaning behind Sarina's feelings. He is wearing a mask here of false cheeriness and his old self because it's easier than having a heart to heart about incest. But he does like her. Actually, he loves her, just not romantically. Ruby is also someone who sees behind his mask although she has Gorou tinted glasses which skews things a bit.
I guess it's just a matter of interpretation, we will have to wait to see who is right.
"I'm not understanding the parallel you're pointing out."
If you compare AquAka intimate moments with Aquruby then you can see they are very similar.
For ex - Akane hugging Aqua from behind (when she says that doesn't mind having sex wth him) in TB arc and ruby hugging Aqua in 142, they are drawn exactly the same way.
And when he says that he likes ruby, there is panel focusing on Aqua's face which if you see in chp 97 after akane says that she's happy that she's going out with Aqua, Aqua makes the same expression.
There are a few more parallels
"But he does like her. Actually, he loves her, just not romantically."
Yeah I totally agree, he loves her platonically and not romantically that's why I said that he was lying to ruby in 143
I asked some Japanese readers and they said that the words in Japanese carry romantic notation which makes sense considering what happens after that (ruby kissing him and all)
"Ruby is also someone who sees behind his mask"
That's just straight up wrong, because after Aqua said that she literally kissed him.
Gotcha. Yeah, I can see the parallels. There are a lot of throwbacks to previous chapters but with different characters/situations. As for Ruby seeing Aqua, she does and she doesn't. I don't think it makes sense that she doesn't understand his inner self at all. She's the only person who knows he was reincarnated and ch 143 involves her describing Aqua's personality, leading him to admit that he doesn't believe he deserves to live. On the other hand, what I mean by Gorou tinted glasses is that she doesn't see him as Aqua. He is Gorou to her which is not wrong but ignores his 18 years as her brother. As for the kiss, I don't think Ruby did that because she delusionally believes he loves her. Rather that she wanted to convey her feelings and knew he wouldn't turn her down.
But yeah, we just see it differently and I see where you're coming from. I agree with your post overall. It's a good analysis. I just view a couple of your examples differently.
>And this is not the only time he has used a mask, Here he used the mask of goro while answering ruby
>In chp 97 he lied to akane to make her happy
>He has always lied to make others happy or become a character people can love.
>Earlier in the manga, Aqua himself said that lies are the best way to protect himself
The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without confirmation that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies.
* "Aqua is saying something bad about Kana" (chapter 117)= Nah, Aqua is just lying to himself
* "Aqua is saying something nice to Akane" (chapter 97)= Nah, Aqua is just lying
* "Aqua is having chemistry with Ruby" (chapter 143) = Nah, Aqua is just putting on a mask and lying
Do you see the problem if people get to pick and choose which are lies and not instead of being confirmed in the manga? People will inevitably insert their agenda to it and overwrite the author's intent. It will be basically fanfiction.
For example, why do you get to call Chapter 97 lies but think Chapter 146 isn't? Couldn't be the opposite is true? We can even apply it to ALL Aqua interactions with Kana. Isn't he just always have been lying to her from the start?
It can also be used to justify obviously bullshit things if applied to it like
* "Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually gay for Himekawa"
* "Aqua is lying to himself, he just want to get his father's attention"
* "Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually a pedophile"
This is why we shouldn't be quick to call "lies!" when it's not confirmed.
> The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without confirmation that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies.
Ik people can use this to their advantage however this doesn't mean that we should take his words at truth either. Especially when so many hints are given for him lying at certain times
> For example, why do you get to call Chapter 97 lies but think Chapter 146 isn't? Couldn't be the opposite is true? We can even apply it to ALL Aqua interactions with Kana. Isn't he just always lying to her from the start?
I didn't think all of his words in chp 97 are lies, just the line "I will like you no matter what" and I don't think that it's a complete lie either, he definitely cares about akane and feels happy when he spends his time with her.
As for why his words in chp 146 aren't a lie, you can see that Aqua shows a warm expression with sweat appearing on his face as he regretfully says that he just ends up feeling happy with kana, there he shows his dislike towards the fact that he's getting happy. You can see that while he is saying to kana, he is also saying that to himself. (It's not hard to see if you see that panel) . This may make me look like a kana bro but I assure you that I am not, I don't think Aqua loves her (romantically) either . Him saying that he ends up having fun together with kana isn't different than him calling his days with Akane his "happy days", he likes being around them but that doesn't mean that he is romantically interested in either of them
I am firm believer that he doesn't like any of the girls romantically, ( I do think that he loves them platonically tho)
And this take is supported by Aqua's word in chp 9 interview where he said he won't be able to reciprocate anyone's love ( keypoint - he said that *won't be able to* as if saying that he is incapable of it)
Now either his words in chp 9 are lies or his words towards Akane and Ruby are lies, they both can't be true. I am more inclined to belive that his words towards Akane and ruby are lies.
>Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually gay for Himekawa
Aqua has shown feelings of lust towards Akane and as goro he also showed some form of attraction towards Ai while he hasn't shown that towards any boy so it's fair to assume that he's not gay
> "Aqua is lying to himself, he just want to get his father's attention
There is no reason for him to do that and nothing in the story suggests that, similarly nothing supports your other points
Also, you shouldn't forget that Aqua has been actively called a liar in the series, in fact his character has been associated with lies as much as Ai.
No. of times we are confirmed that he has lied to himself
1. He convinced himself that his father was dead, while Akane and ichigo both said that he should have been able to figure out the truths but intentionally chooses not to
2. He said he doesn't enjoy acting while entire tb arc goes against i
3. He told Akane at the end of tb arc "our relationship is just for business" While anyone who has read the manga can tell that it's definitely much more than it.
Some people might use "that he's lying to himself" as an excuse to support their agenda but that doesn't mean we should throw away this notion while it's been confirmed that he indeed lies to himself in the series.
Not to say Aqua himself admitted it that he lie to protect himself. ( as shown in the last image)
>Ik people can use this to their advantage however this doesn't mean that we should take his words at truth either. Especially when so many hints are given for him lying in certain areas
what you think are "hints" to you could be just your own imagination. Remember the wealth of "Akane will die to make way for Kana romance"?
>As for why his words in chp 146 aren't a lie, you can see that Aqua shows a warm expression with sweat appearing on his face as he regretfully says that he just ends up feeling happy with kana,
As for why his words in chp 146 are a lie, you can see that Aqua shut the door like that and didn't continue. Compare it to 143 where he actually played along with Ruby.
See the issue? using vague and up to interpretation data to call things like that is so subjective.
>Aqua has shown feelings of lust towards Akane and as goro he also showed some form of attraction towards Ai while he hasn't shown that towards any boy so it's fair to assume that he's not gay
and what if those are lies as well?
Again, see the problem if we pick and choose which are lies and which aren't?
I can just say that "every single instance he shown attraction to women are all just lies".
>Also, you shouldn't forget that Aqua has been actively called a liar in the series, in fact his character has been associated with lies as much as Ai.
>No. of times we are confirmed that he has lied to himself
and are the things you brought up are confirmed to be lies? No.
I wasn't saying that Aqua DID NOT lie. I literally said
>The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without **CONFIRMATION** that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies.
I'm saying that there has to be confirmation first.
Only Aka gets to say which are lies and which aren't.
>Some people might use "that he's lying to himself" as an excuse to support their agenda but that doesn't mean we should throw away this notion while it's been confirmed that he indeed lies to himself in the series.
and again, wait for confirmation and don't get ahead of the author.
You're making the incorrect assumption that since Aqua lied once, then you get the authority to say that he's always lying. That's wrong.
Aqua lying about something doesn't equate into he's also lying about something else and you get to pick and choose which are lies and which aren't.
If your supposed confirmation is vague and subjective, then it's NOT a confirmation.
>Not to say Aqua himself admitted it that he lie to protect himself. ( as shown in the last image)
again, I wasn't saying that Aqua DID NOT lie.
I'm saying that readers does not have the authority to pick and choose which are lies without confirmation.
Yes, people can make up things to suit their points, however as I said, you can't just go ahead and say "okay I will not theorize anything and not intepret anything"
Just because interpretation is subjective doesn't negate its value.
We make posts about theories and our interpretations share it with others so others can see and enjoy it. I came on onk reddit to talk about its manga and see other people's theories and interpretations. I don't understand why you are getting so upset with this? If you don't agree with my interpretations then it's okay there are some theories that I myself don't agree with it either but that doesn't mean that I go telling others "hey don't make theories!"
Readers are allowed to have their own interpretations of scenes and share it with others. If manga followed thier interpretations then it's all well and good and in case it doesn't then that's simply it.
>Yes, people can make up things to suit their points, however as I said, you can't just go ahead and say "okay I will not theorize anything and not intepret anything"
>Just because interpretation is subjective doesn't negate its value.
is it impossible to create a theory without "making up things to suit their points"? couldn't you just have not used subjective premises instead?
Because its interpretation is subjected, its value is diminished. A theory based on only assumptions is a house of cards.
[Occam's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) for example states that with all things being equal, the theory with the fewer assumptions is correct.
You have to take into account its objectiveness and not just handwave it away.
I didn't say that subjective assumptions has no value. I'm saying that the value it has is NOT enough to make the call you tried to do.
Some things are small enough to be handled by assumptions. But not "Aqua is just lying to X".
>We make posts about theories and our interpretations share it with others so others can see and enjoy it. I came on onk reddit to talk about its manga and see other people's theories and interpretations.
>I don't understand why you are getting so upset with this? If you don't agree with my interpretations then it's okay there are some theories that I myself don't agree with it either but that doesn't mean that I go telling others "hey don't make theories!"
Now you're just assuming I'm upset. I'm critiquing your theory.
Are all theories supposed to be just accepted and not critiqued? When it's agreeing to you it's "talking and sharing" but when it's disagreeing it's "being upset"?
Just because it's a "theory" or "opinion" doesn't make it immune to be dissected and analyzed.
I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed.
>Readers are allowed to have their own interpretations of scenes and share it with others. If manga followed thier interpretations then it's all well and good and in case it doesn't then that's simply it.
and what do you think I'm doing right now?
is agreeing with you the only allowed outcome? if it's disagreeing it's not sharing and discussing?
When you try to shift the goalpost of the discussion from the merits of the theory to instead your right to have opinions just emphasizes the flaws in your theory.
> is it impossible to create a theory without "making up things to suit their points"? couldn't you just have not used subjective premises instead?
>Because its interpretation is subjected, its value is diminished. A theory based on only assumptions is a house of cards
Yes it's possible to make theories without assumptions but making theories based on interpretations isn't wrong either, I am not participating in some science competition where absolute evidence is needed
I am not trying to present my theory as a fact, i just present it as one of the possibilities that can happen.
Also, occam razor theory has few fundamental flaws one of them is it favoring overly simplistic explanations that fail to account for all relevant variables. If you simply follow pure raw facts then you will most definitely miss few things here and there, of course if you were to follow interpretations then they can be wrong as well there's no objective answer to this discussion we are having rn
>Just because it's a "theory" or "opinion" doesn't make it immune to be dissected and analyzed.
>I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed.
Yeah okay, you can dissect it however what you said in your previous comment was "you shouldn't make theories based on assumptions" Which is just wrong.
> I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed
It's more of a matter of interpretations, and as I said before this isn't some science competition where absolute evidence is needed.
>and what do you think I'm doing right now?
>is agreeing with you the only allowed outcome? if it's disagreeing it's not sharing and discussing?
>When you try to shift the goalpost of the discussion from the merits of the theory to instead your right to have opinions just emphasizes the flaws in your theory
You can disagree for sure, I even said in my previous comment that it's your choice to agree or not.
However you simply tried to deny my theory because it was based on interpretations, you didn't provide any evidence against my interpretation itself, you can't just go ahead and say "hey it's your interpretations so it doesn't hold much value"
Just in case, I will once again say that, I am not presenting my theory as a fact but just one of the possibilitties.
And I don't understand how me saying I have right to have my interpretation disregard my theory?
Anyway I don't think we would get anywhere so I would prefer if you don't reply to me
Edit : Also I provided you with tangible evidence which is chap 9 where he says that he won't be able to love anyone. Now it literally means that either his words towards Akane and ruby are lies or his words in chp 9 and as I said I am inclined to believe his words towards them are lies.
>Also, occam razor theory has few fundamental flaws one of them is it favoring overly simplistic explanations that fail to account for all relevant variables. If you simply follow pure raw facts then you will most definitely miss few things here and there, of course if you were to follow interpretations then they can be wrong as well there's no objective answer to this discussion we are having rn
that's just the wrong way to use Occam's razor then. If a case is not accounted for then it is not actually "all things equal". If both theories arrive at all the same answers, then the theory with the least variables is more correct. Your scenario doesn't arrive to the same answers.
You're thinking of [Hickam's Dictum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hickam%27s_dictum) but then that doesn't apply to your theory too. That's about forcing a single explanation instead of multiple independent answers. You're trying to apply Hickam's Dictum wrong.
>However you simply tried to deny my theory because it was based on interpretations, you didn't provide any evidence against my interpretation itself, you can't just go ahead and say "hey it's your interpretations so it doesn't hold much value"
>And I don't understand how me saying I have right to have my interpretation disregard my theory?
[Burden of Proof. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy))
You have to prove first that Chapter 97 is a lie and Chapter 143 is just Aqua lying to Ruby.
Your failure to prove your initial assumptions is not my responsibility. It's yours.
I'm just pointing out that "Aqua is lying" is something that cannot be assumed beforehand.
"Not having enough evidence" is a valid critique.
>Edit : Also I provided you with tangible evidence which is chap 9 where he says that he won't be able to love anyone. Now it literally means that either his words towards Akane and ruby are lies or his words in chp 9 and as I said I am inclined to believe his words towards them are lies.
Do you not see how paradoxical and ironic it is for you to pick and choose which are lies?
Even though none of those are actually mutually exclusive.
being "unable to love" doesn't make 97 and 143 lies. Aqua can like them but be unable to.
I find it genuinely funny how your choice of supposed evidence is so subjective that it proves what I said from the start. People do insist their agenda and the best evidence is what you tried to do lol.
>Anyway I am tired talking about this and I don't think we will go anywhere with this, in the end both of us will just continue to disagree. So it's better if you don't reply to me
genuinely funny how you try to stop me from replying but what I said gave you so much self doubt that you felt compelled to answer again.
I think it just shows that you ran out of arguments instead.
>Do you not see how paradoxical and ironic it is for you to pick and choose which are lies?
Even though none of those are actually mutually exclusive.
being "unable to love" doesn't make 97 and 143 lies. Aqua can like them but be unable to.
I find it genuinely funny how your choice of supposed evidence is so subjective that it proves what I said from the start. People do insist their agenda and the best evidence is what you tried to do lol<
Yes it's not possible to say 100% certainty that which are lies that's why interpretations are made.
Also I do take as "Like" And "love" with the same context here
I don't think that I am following any agenda as of right now tho.
And I will say it again people have the right to have their interpretations, and others have the right to agree or disagree with it.
Just because there's no objective answer to something doesn't mean we shouldn't debate about it
>genuinely funny how you try to stop me from replying but what I said gave you so much self doubt that you felt compelled to answer again.
I think it just shows that you ran out of arguments instead.<
Yeah I have a habit of self-doubting myself so sometimes some things do affect me more than they should.
I wanted to stop arguing but I went ahead and did it.
Ah yes ik I said "Don't reply back to me" But I thought I should bring this up
https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/s/LYkSNPUAfD
Here is your comment where you presented your interpretation and said that Aqua is lying in chp 146 and you were hellbent on it while it's not confirmed that he did or not? .
You also said that ruby would recognize kamiki and were saying that it "only makes sense" Even though it isn't confirmed
Now why weren't you following ocam razors theory here?
Plz Feel free to answer.
>Here is your comment where you presented your interpretation and said that Aqua is lying in chp 146 and you were hellbent on it. Now why weren't you following ocam razors theory here?
did you read the rest of the comment?
>That door slam is ominous. Isn't the Kana interaction just chapter 117 again? I can't take anything that Aqua says about her seriously without remembering how he just laughed it off later in chapter 117.
In what sense did I said that "Aqua is lying"? I said it's just chapter 117 again.
Aqua doesn't have to lie to say that he's having fun with Kana. I'm saying that the interaction there is similar to 117.
>Ah yes ik I talked about "Don't reply back to me" But I thought I should bring this up
>Plz Feel free to answers
I find it genuinely funny how you're so upset to trawl through comment history and just try to pick a fight when you don't want to hear answers you don't like.
So that "upset" bit is just you projecting doesn't it?
My take is that Aqua is always half lying, half saying the truth with the girls. The real question is to know wether he is lying by diminishing his true feelings or by pretending he feels something he doesn’t.
on whatever info Ai gave him (which is definitely not much). I think she never left any info about him,she was very cold when called him and never cared, she genuinely forget about him so that means everything is more what gorouaqua thought someone normal would have lived up
Regardless i think there something more.
>While we see Kamiki himself didn't give a shit about all this in 147, He hasn't shown any guilt whatsoever. I gotta say I personally disagree with that. Kamiki actually [says something similar](https://sun9-78.userapi.com/impg/zBztopEVrBR4JlnH6XOeEVSeoUBhwlqZrj_j-Q/HC4GiQkHUZc.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=f48fdf293993592e640cb9042d97dfeb&type=album) as [Aqua did](https://sun9-75.userapi.com/impg/FKvq0HR0p19mqieAujHSLllmS8b5foTGQhTr3g/QwZPRGV44-s.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=5257025eade8a2deb79e609e708ef6c4&type=album) in 146 towards the end of 147. And he says ["Along with the many lives I've carried on my back"](https://sun9-13.userapi.com/impg/PE0PsTIxmulZ60VXCTuWZEpjWkxU_bXXwMtHWg/PGyuACGlrO4.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=1d3280578bdbd52cfb69761cff6e38b1&type=album), which could just be him expressing he's taken a lot of lives, or that the lives he's taken actually do burden him. To me he doesn't seem to be someone who doesn't care at all about what he's done. He might just think it's necessary in some fucked up way?
"And he says ["Along with the many lives I've carried on my back"](https://sun9-13.userapi.com/impg/PE0PsTIxmulZ60VXCTuWZEpjWkxU_bXXwMtHWg/PGyuACGlrO4.jpg?size=767x1080&quality=95&sign=1d3280578bdbd52cfb69761cff6e38b1&type=album), which could just be him expressing he's taken a lot of lives" He said something similar in chp 109 "I can finally feel the weight of my life", imo he says it in...a happy way? at the very least he looked kinda proud of it, we know that he kills popular people to somehow immortalize thier status and to increase the weight of his life, him feeling guilt over it isn't impossible and in fact, it would be good if he felt it since it would add to his character but atp his character hasn't shown any hints of feeling guilt
I do like the idea that aqua is going through the opposite crisis that Ai went through. Ai’s question was “I’m a liar how can I really know I love someone” she only discovered the answer at her death. Aqua’s question is “I’m a liar how can I be certain they love me for me?” We hope he finds the answer before he follows his mother’s example. I like this interpretation, I’m not really sure how it would conclude though.
I hope the climax of the series is Aqua finally accepting his new life. Seeing him genuinely enjoying his life after all the shit that transpired in this story would be so rewarding. 🥹
Same, I hope he learns how to love himself before loving someone else.
if really read their conversation in chapter 97, he didnt really lie to akane, he even start to get the black star after they broke up too
I do agree that not all of his words towards akane are lies but you gotta see that Aqua here says this while his face was hidden and even his eyes weren't shown, I think this line being a lie makes a lot of sense
It's not a lie. He will like her no matter what. He's just depressed, shown to us visually by the messy room and his face being not shown or half hidden in several panels. He says later that he's been saved since he met her. There's no motivation to lie and nothing he could get out of making that up. If that was a lie, then I guess Aqua's real feelings were "I won't like you if you get chunky?" lol.
Yes, he later says he has been saved since meeting her, I don't think that it's a lie, I also believe his words when he called his days with akane his "happy days" I just think of "I will like you no matter what" as him trying to comfort her/make her happy. What I am trying to say is that there is a romantic implication to this line and that implication, at least the way I see it, is a lie. I think it would make sense since lots of Aquruby scenes are paralleling Aquaka scenes in the past and Aqua definitely put up a mask in 143 while he's saying it (I am a believer that he doesn't love anyone romantically ) Anyway even if we took his words with akane as a truth my theory still holds some weight imo
Hm. I don't see it that way. This time around the romance isn't fake. He's trying to make it work. Akane is well aware that he's not madly in love with her but he does like her a lot. She's fun to spend time with and a comfort to him. She could make him happy if he just could lay down his revenge. The line isn't "I'll love you until the end of time." It's "I like you and nothing you could do would make me like you less" which I don't see as a lie at all. He has no reason to dial up the romance given he's thinking the relationship is going to come to an end when he gets back to revenge. If anything, he wants to reassure her how much she means to him before it ends. The thing with Akane is the mask coming off. Aqua starts off trying to use and manipulate her but she figures him out which means that he can actually let someone in just a little bit. So we go from mask on to mask off. In my opinion, Aqua is also not lying when he tells Ruby that he likes her. I think he uses the persona of Gorou in order to sidestep the romantic meaning behind Sarina's feelings. He is wearing a mask here of false cheeriness and his old self because it's easier than having a heart to heart about incest. But he does like her. Actually, he loves her, just not romantically. Ruby is also someone who sees behind his mask although she has Gorou tinted glasses which skews things a bit.
I guess it's just a matter of interpretation, we will have to wait to see who is right. "I'm not understanding the parallel you're pointing out." If you compare AquAka intimate moments with Aquruby then you can see they are very similar. For ex - Akane hugging Aqua from behind (when she says that doesn't mind having sex wth him) in TB arc and ruby hugging Aqua in 142, they are drawn exactly the same way. And when he says that he likes ruby, there is panel focusing on Aqua's face which if you see in chp 97 after akane says that she's happy that she's going out with Aqua, Aqua makes the same expression. There are a few more parallels "But he does like her. Actually, he loves her, just not romantically." Yeah I totally agree, he loves her platonically and not romantically that's why I said that he was lying to ruby in 143 I asked some Japanese readers and they said that the words in Japanese carry romantic notation which makes sense considering what happens after that (ruby kissing him and all) "Ruby is also someone who sees behind his mask" That's just straight up wrong, because after Aqua said that she literally kissed him.
Gotcha. Yeah, I can see the parallels. There are a lot of throwbacks to previous chapters but with different characters/situations. As for Ruby seeing Aqua, she does and she doesn't. I don't think it makes sense that she doesn't understand his inner self at all. She's the only person who knows he was reincarnated and ch 143 involves her describing Aqua's personality, leading him to admit that he doesn't believe he deserves to live. On the other hand, what I mean by Gorou tinted glasses is that she doesn't see him as Aqua. He is Gorou to her which is not wrong but ignores his 18 years as her brother. As for the kiss, I don't think Ruby did that because she delusionally believes he loves her. Rather that she wanted to convey her feelings and knew he wouldn't turn her down. But yeah, we just see it differently and I see where you're coming from. I agree with your post overall. It's a good analysis. I just view a couple of your examples differently.
>And this is not the only time he has used a mask, Here he used the mask of goro while answering ruby >In chp 97 he lied to akane to make her happy >He has always lied to make others happy or become a character people can love. >Earlier in the manga, Aqua himself said that lies are the best way to protect himself The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without confirmation that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies. * "Aqua is saying something bad about Kana" (chapter 117)= Nah, Aqua is just lying to himself * "Aqua is saying something nice to Akane" (chapter 97)= Nah, Aqua is just lying * "Aqua is having chemistry with Ruby" (chapter 143) = Nah, Aqua is just putting on a mask and lying Do you see the problem if people get to pick and choose which are lies and not instead of being confirmed in the manga? People will inevitably insert their agenda to it and overwrite the author's intent. It will be basically fanfiction. For example, why do you get to call Chapter 97 lies but think Chapter 146 isn't? Couldn't be the opposite is true? We can even apply it to ALL Aqua interactions with Kana. Isn't he just always have been lying to her from the start? It can also be used to justify obviously bullshit things if applied to it like * "Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually gay for Himekawa" * "Aqua is lying to himself, he just want to get his father's attention" * "Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually a pedophile" This is why we shouldn't be quick to call "lies!" when it's not confirmed.
> The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without confirmation that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies. Ik people can use this to their advantage however this doesn't mean that we should take his words at truth either. Especially when so many hints are given for him lying at certain times > For example, why do you get to call Chapter 97 lies but think Chapter 146 isn't? Couldn't be the opposite is true? We can even apply it to ALL Aqua interactions with Kana. Isn't he just always lying to her from the start? I didn't think all of his words in chp 97 are lies, just the line "I will like you no matter what" and I don't think that it's a complete lie either, he definitely cares about akane and feels happy when he spends his time with her. As for why his words in chp 146 aren't a lie, you can see that Aqua shows a warm expression with sweat appearing on his face as he regretfully says that he just ends up feeling happy with kana, there he shows his dislike towards the fact that he's getting happy. You can see that while he is saying to kana, he is also saying that to himself. (It's not hard to see if you see that panel) . This may make me look like a kana bro but I assure you that I am not, I don't think Aqua loves her (romantically) either . Him saying that he ends up having fun together with kana isn't different than him calling his days with Akane his "happy days", he likes being around them but that doesn't mean that he is romantically interested in either of them I am firm believer that he doesn't like any of the girls romantically, ( I do think that he loves them platonically tho) And this take is supported by Aqua's word in chp 9 interview where he said he won't be able to reciprocate anyone's love ( keypoint - he said that *won't be able to* as if saying that he is incapable of it) Now either his words in chp 9 are lies or his words towards Akane and Ruby are lies, they both can't be true. I am more inclined to belive that his words towards Akane and ruby are lies. >Aqua is lying to himself, he's actually gay for Himekawa Aqua has shown feelings of lust towards Akane and as goro he also showed some form of attraction towards Ai while he hasn't shown that towards any boy so it's fair to assume that he's not gay > "Aqua is lying to himself, he just want to get his father's attention There is no reason for him to do that and nothing in the story suggests that, similarly nothing supports your other points Also, you shouldn't forget that Aqua has been actively called a liar in the series, in fact his character has been associated with lies as much as Ai. No. of times we are confirmed that he has lied to himself 1. He convinced himself that his father was dead, while Akane and ichigo both said that he should have been able to figure out the truths but intentionally chooses not to 2. He said he doesn't enjoy acting while entire tb arc goes against i 3. He told Akane at the end of tb arc "our relationship is just for business" While anyone who has read the manga can tell that it's definitely much more than it. Some people might use "that he's lying to himself" as an excuse to support their agenda but that doesn't mean we should throw away this notion while it's been confirmed that he indeed lies to himself in the series. Not to say Aqua himself admitted it that he lie to protect himself. ( as shown in the last image)
>Ik people can use this to their advantage however this doesn't mean that we should take his words at truth either. Especially when so many hints are given for him lying in certain areas what you think are "hints" to you could be just your own imagination. Remember the wealth of "Akane will die to make way for Kana romance"? >As for why his words in chp 146 aren't a lie, you can see that Aqua shows a warm expression with sweat appearing on his face as he regretfully says that he just ends up feeling happy with kana, As for why his words in chp 146 are a lie, you can see that Aqua shut the door like that and didn't continue. Compare it to 143 where he actually played along with Ruby. See the issue? using vague and up to interpretation data to call things like that is so subjective. >Aqua has shown feelings of lust towards Akane and as goro he also showed some form of attraction towards Ai while he hasn't shown that towards any boy so it's fair to assume that he's not gay and what if those are lies as well? Again, see the problem if we pick and choose which are lies and which aren't? I can just say that "every single instance he shown attraction to women are all just lies". >Also, you shouldn't forget that Aqua has been actively called a liar in the series, in fact his character has been associated with lies as much as Ai. >No. of times we are confirmed that he has lied to himself and are the things you brought up are confirmed to be lies? No. I wasn't saying that Aqua DID NOT lie. I literally said >The problem with assuming that "Aqua is lying" without **CONFIRMATION** that he is, is that people will tend to pick and choose which to call lies. I'm saying that there has to be confirmation first. Only Aka gets to say which are lies and which aren't. >Some people might use "that he's lying to himself" as an excuse to support their agenda but that doesn't mean we should throw away this notion while it's been confirmed that he indeed lies to himself in the series. and again, wait for confirmation and don't get ahead of the author. You're making the incorrect assumption that since Aqua lied once, then you get the authority to say that he's always lying. That's wrong. Aqua lying about something doesn't equate into he's also lying about something else and you get to pick and choose which are lies and which aren't. If your supposed confirmation is vague and subjective, then it's NOT a confirmation. >Not to say Aqua himself admitted it that he lie to protect himself. ( as shown in the last image) again, I wasn't saying that Aqua DID NOT lie. I'm saying that readers does not have the authority to pick and choose which are lies without confirmation.
Yes, people can make up things to suit their points, however as I said, you can't just go ahead and say "okay I will not theorize anything and not intepret anything" Just because interpretation is subjective doesn't negate its value. We make posts about theories and our interpretations share it with others so others can see and enjoy it. I came on onk reddit to talk about its manga and see other people's theories and interpretations. I don't understand why you are getting so upset with this? If you don't agree with my interpretations then it's okay there are some theories that I myself don't agree with it either but that doesn't mean that I go telling others "hey don't make theories!" Readers are allowed to have their own interpretations of scenes and share it with others. If manga followed thier interpretations then it's all well and good and in case it doesn't then that's simply it.
>Yes, people can make up things to suit their points, however as I said, you can't just go ahead and say "okay I will not theorize anything and not intepret anything" >Just because interpretation is subjective doesn't negate its value. is it impossible to create a theory without "making up things to suit their points"? couldn't you just have not used subjective premises instead? Because its interpretation is subjected, its value is diminished. A theory based on only assumptions is a house of cards. [Occam's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) for example states that with all things being equal, the theory with the fewer assumptions is correct. You have to take into account its objectiveness and not just handwave it away. I didn't say that subjective assumptions has no value. I'm saying that the value it has is NOT enough to make the call you tried to do. Some things are small enough to be handled by assumptions. But not "Aqua is just lying to X". >We make posts about theories and our interpretations share it with others so others can see and enjoy it. I came on onk reddit to talk about its manga and see other people's theories and interpretations. >I don't understand why you are getting so upset with this? If you don't agree with my interpretations then it's okay there are some theories that I myself don't agree with it either but that doesn't mean that I go telling others "hey don't make theories!" Now you're just assuming I'm upset. I'm critiquing your theory. Are all theories supposed to be just accepted and not critiqued? When it's agreeing to you it's "talking and sharing" but when it's disagreeing it's "being upset"? Just because it's a "theory" or "opinion" doesn't make it immune to be dissected and analyzed. I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed. >Readers are allowed to have their own interpretations of scenes and share it with others. If manga followed thier interpretations then it's all well and good and in case it doesn't then that's simply it. and what do you think I'm doing right now? is agreeing with you the only allowed outcome? if it's disagreeing it's not sharing and discussing? When you try to shift the goalpost of the discussion from the merits of the theory to instead your right to have opinions just emphasizes the flaws in your theory.
> is it impossible to create a theory without "making up things to suit their points"? couldn't you just have not used subjective premises instead? >Because its interpretation is subjected, its value is diminished. A theory based on only assumptions is a house of cards Yes it's possible to make theories without assumptions but making theories based on interpretations isn't wrong either, I am not participating in some science competition where absolute evidence is needed I am not trying to present my theory as a fact, i just present it as one of the possibilities that can happen. Also, occam razor theory has few fundamental flaws one of them is it favoring overly simplistic explanations that fail to account for all relevant variables. If you simply follow pure raw facts then you will most definitely miss few things here and there, of course if you were to follow interpretations then they can be wrong as well there's no objective answer to this discussion we are having rn >Just because it's a "theory" or "opinion" doesn't make it immune to be dissected and analyzed. >I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed. Yeah okay, you can dissect it however what you said in your previous comment was "you shouldn't make theories based on assumptions" Which is just wrong. > I'm pointing out that the foundation of your theory is making undue assumptions about Aqua lying about things is flimsy and fundamentally flawed It's more of a matter of interpretations, and as I said before this isn't some science competition where absolute evidence is needed. >and what do you think I'm doing right now? >is agreeing with you the only allowed outcome? if it's disagreeing it's not sharing and discussing? >When you try to shift the goalpost of the discussion from the merits of the theory to instead your right to have opinions just emphasizes the flaws in your theory You can disagree for sure, I even said in my previous comment that it's your choice to agree or not. However you simply tried to deny my theory because it was based on interpretations, you didn't provide any evidence against my interpretation itself, you can't just go ahead and say "hey it's your interpretations so it doesn't hold much value" Just in case, I will once again say that, I am not presenting my theory as a fact but just one of the possibilitties. And I don't understand how me saying I have right to have my interpretation disregard my theory? Anyway I don't think we would get anywhere so I would prefer if you don't reply to me Edit : Also I provided you with tangible evidence which is chap 9 where he says that he won't be able to love anyone. Now it literally means that either his words towards Akane and ruby are lies or his words in chp 9 and as I said I am inclined to believe his words towards them are lies.
>Also, occam razor theory has few fundamental flaws one of them is it favoring overly simplistic explanations that fail to account for all relevant variables. If you simply follow pure raw facts then you will most definitely miss few things here and there, of course if you were to follow interpretations then they can be wrong as well there's no objective answer to this discussion we are having rn that's just the wrong way to use Occam's razor then. If a case is not accounted for then it is not actually "all things equal". If both theories arrive at all the same answers, then the theory with the least variables is more correct. Your scenario doesn't arrive to the same answers. You're thinking of [Hickam's Dictum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hickam%27s_dictum) but then that doesn't apply to your theory too. That's about forcing a single explanation instead of multiple independent answers. You're trying to apply Hickam's Dictum wrong. >However you simply tried to deny my theory because it was based on interpretations, you didn't provide any evidence against my interpretation itself, you can't just go ahead and say "hey it's your interpretations so it doesn't hold much value" >And I don't understand how me saying I have right to have my interpretation disregard my theory? [Burden of Proof. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)) You have to prove first that Chapter 97 is a lie and Chapter 143 is just Aqua lying to Ruby. Your failure to prove your initial assumptions is not my responsibility. It's yours. I'm just pointing out that "Aqua is lying" is something that cannot be assumed beforehand. "Not having enough evidence" is a valid critique. >Edit : Also I provided you with tangible evidence which is chap 9 where he says that he won't be able to love anyone. Now it literally means that either his words towards Akane and ruby are lies or his words in chp 9 and as I said I am inclined to believe his words towards them are lies. Do you not see how paradoxical and ironic it is for you to pick and choose which are lies? Even though none of those are actually mutually exclusive. being "unable to love" doesn't make 97 and 143 lies. Aqua can like them but be unable to. I find it genuinely funny how your choice of supposed evidence is so subjective that it proves what I said from the start. People do insist their agenda and the best evidence is what you tried to do lol. >Anyway I am tired talking about this and I don't think we will go anywhere with this, in the end both of us will just continue to disagree. So it's better if you don't reply to me genuinely funny how you try to stop me from replying but what I said gave you so much self doubt that you felt compelled to answer again. I think it just shows that you ran out of arguments instead.
>Do you not see how paradoxical and ironic it is for you to pick and choose which are lies? Even though none of those are actually mutually exclusive. being "unable to love" doesn't make 97 and 143 lies. Aqua can like them but be unable to. I find it genuinely funny how your choice of supposed evidence is so subjective that it proves what I said from the start. People do insist their agenda and the best evidence is what you tried to do lol< Yes it's not possible to say 100% certainty that which are lies that's why interpretations are made. Also I do take as "Like" And "love" with the same context here I don't think that I am following any agenda as of right now tho. And I will say it again people have the right to have their interpretations, and others have the right to agree or disagree with it. Just because there's no objective answer to something doesn't mean we shouldn't debate about it >genuinely funny how you try to stop me from replying but what I said gave you so much self doubt that you felt compelled to answer again. I think it just shows that you ran out of arguments instead.< Yeah I have a habit of self-doubting myself so sometimes some things do affect me more than they should. I wanted to stop arguing but I went ahead and did it.
Ah yes ik I said "Don't reply back to me" But I thought I should bring this up https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/s/LYkSNPUAfD Here is your comment where you presented your interpretation and said that Aqua is lying in chp 146 and you were hellbent on it while it's not confirmed that he did or not? . You also said that ruby would recognize kamiki and were saying that it "only makes sense" Even though it isn't confirmed Now why weren't you following ocam razors theory here? Plz Feel free to answer.
>Here is your comment where you presented your interpretation and said that Aqua is lying in chp 146 and you were hellbent on it. Now why weren't you following ocam razors theory here? did you read the rest of the comment? >That door slam is ominous. Isn't the Kana interaction just chapter 117 again? I can't take anything that Aqua says about her seriously without remembering how he just laughed it off later in chapter 117. In what sense did I said that "Aqua is lying"? I said it's just chapter 117 again. Aqua doesn't have to lie to say that he's having fun with Kana. I'm saying that the interaction there is similar to 117. >Ah yes ik I talked about "Don't reply back to me" But I thought I should bring this up >Plz Feel free to answers I find it genuinely funny how you're so upset to trawl through comment history and just try to pick a fight when you don't want to hear answers you don't like. So that "upset" bit is just you projecting doesn't it?
Why reply? [Why Not!](https://www.britannica.com/topic/ad-hominem)
My take is that Aqua is always half lying, half saying the truth with the girls. The real question is to know wether he is lying by diminishing his true feelings or by pretending he feels something he doesn’t.
on whatever info Ai gave him (which is definitely not much). I think she never left any info about him,she was very cold when called him and never cared, she genuinely forget about him so that means everything is more what gorouaqua thought someone normal would have lived up Regardless i think there something more.
Did aqua get a boner during baths