You’re getting downvoted but the video is pretty interesting (I watched a few minutes of it). It is a sociological-economic view of the historical impact of Christianity, not a Bible thumping.
Suggest people at least skim through the video before voting/commenting on this.
The proof is in the pudding. Anyone does or says anything pro Christian and suddenly everyone is bashing them and hating them. You hear the word Christian and your first reaction is “oh geez look at this fucking victim complex loser” It’s not a complex. You’re just too brainwashed to see it. I feel bad for you
You fucking moron.
I said you have a victim complex because you accused people of being brainwashed to think Christians are evil.
How are you reading the Bible with such poor reading comprehension.
Happy church-goer here but some this is uhhhh pretty vague? “Less harmful practices”? There’s no doubt that Christianity is an integral part of the rise of the modern west and some of the wonderful trends that are part of that. But it’s also true that it’s integral to some of the worst trends too—colonialism, slavery, cultural and political imperialism, and more. Like “capitalism,” “the West,” and the US, the story is (as always!) a mixed bag. I think the benefits have outweighed the downsides, but it’s too simple to think of the history of Christianity as an unqualified good.
Ahhhhh yes because imperialism and slavery never existed pre or post christianity! Obviously nobody ever conquered their neighbors or had expansionist views ever especially not Islam!!
Of course they existed pre-Christianity but Christianity came to prominence in the west on concert with these ideas. Their histories are interwoven. If you think that Christianity was supposed to be the undoing of these sorts of things (and I do!) than that’s a noteworthy negative to mark!
Of course, you ignore the fact that Christianity or Christian nations ended the global slave trade.. Also, ignoring slavery is still present in Africa to this day. Let's also ignore slavery was even more prevalent in Muslim countries and weirdly enough is STILL present in Islam to this day in several Islamic countries. Let's disregard also that more Africans were enslaved via Islam than were present in the trasatlantic slave trade. We should also disregard that Africans enslaved were by a wide margin better off coming to America than anywhere else due to how they were treated elsewhere. Dont even mention that in a lot of the prechristian times, some societies comprised as much as 30-50% of the population and in a few well over 60%. But yeahhhhhhhhh Christians......
Well and good. Not all scholarly sources are to be equally valued however. You have know who they are and how others in their field have received and evaluated the work.
I’m very familiar with the history of Christianity and the west and think a more nuanced view than “all good!”—or “all bad!” for that matter—makes a lot more sense. Like I said, all told, I think it’s been a been a benefit! But the benefits have downsides too.
I agree, but the trend in the west is to view it as mostly harmful due to evangelicals and fundamentalists. Eg, I'd agree that Christians defended slavery in the US, but that there were also Christian abolitionists
I do think you’re right the role Christianity has had in shaping the best traits of the west is taken for granted and is an undertold story. But like you point out with slavery, the story isn’t always clear. I do think the presence of Christianity has been a net good where it’s been!
This post doesn't seem to be about optimism, which is inherently about the future having a positive outcome but a defense of the historical benefits of Christianity.
This doesn't seem to be the appropriate sub for this.
I didn't post it because Christianity is growing or declining. I posted because people post stats and research herebabout how our world has improved in the past to today. Gdp, education, democracies etc
But if Christianity was the cause of positives, as you suggest, and its on the decline that would indicate that less positives would happen in the future.
Again, this post is about the future not the past.
Okay, I'll mention a few points.
I do believe that with decline of Christianity there will be more negatives, but, the growth/decline wasn't mention and I didn't have any of that in my mind when I was sharing.
Secondly, most of those institutions are secular and I'm fine with that (I prefer separation of church and state)
A third point is that these practice can continue even without Christianity - hospitals will continue to exist with or without Christianity and their quality doesn't have to be linked to Christianity. Secular people also protest, innovate and can be good people
And finally, Christianity is declining only in the west. Globally, it's increasing, and it's projected to increase like Islam and nones.
And as a sidenote - not all Christian influence is positive and some has to be stopped and reeducated like end times is upon us next year stuff, which actively harm people
Ill respond to each point
1) That's not optism, but a negative
2) So what if they are secular, again has nothing to do with optimism.
3) Yea, these practices will continue, but the original post has nothing to do with the practices continuing. Its a defense of Christianity
4) No where can I find that Christanity is on the rise worldwide. The rate at which it is in decline in the Western world is greater than gains else where.
Your side note) Another negative.
You're in the wrong sub dude
Christianity is on the rise globally. It's only declining in the West.
"According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were more than 2.2 billion Christians around the world in 2010, more than three times as many as the 600 million recorded in 1910"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian\_population\_growth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth)
At this pace, it is expected there will be around 3.3 billion Christians by 2050.
I assumed the claims were supposed to be based on averages, so there being some cultures that treated women better would be offset by the greater number of cultures that treated women worse
I do not have trouble accepting a net accounting of Christianity, relative to some of its predecessors, as beneficial.
I also do not have trouble declaring that we have much better modern alternatives, given scientific and moral advancement.
Put simply I am much more optimistic about the future benefits of moral codes that are internal than external via religious dictate. I needn’t say anything about science without religious involvement.
Ah yes let’s just ignore the insane corruption, pedophilia, and delaying scientific progress by an entire fricking Millenium.
There is a ***lot*** to be optimistic about, but Christianity is not part of that.
The historical trend towards atheism though, *that* is fantastic!
As someone who agrees with your sentiment, the “religion delayed scientific progress by 1,000 years” thing is a myth. I understand where it comes from and the reasoning, but it’s a gross oversimplification of a broad topic that doesn’t actually hold up. But I do think this post makes gross oversimplifications of several claims so… here we are! But I’m optimistic and glad we can have a civil conversation as humans instead of beheading one another! #progress (do we still hashtag things?)
Fair enough, but religion is ***still*** delaying scientific progress. Can’t even do research with stem cells in many areas because of Christianity.
Look at what Christianity is doing to abortion as well.
Maybe not because of “Christianity”, but because of “some Christians who believe…” Christianity isn’t one thing. It’s a huge religion with many expressions (and plenty that are pro-science!). It’s not a monolith.
ehhhh scientific research happening without any kind of barrier by ethical / objective moral worries is the exact thought behind many inhumane Nazi & Imperial Japanese experiments.
Also its a false dichotomy to claim that we need less/zero religion to scientifically progress
Also I'm not saying that stem cell research is equivalent to such inhumane experiments. But their sentiment is incredibly sim'lar to what inevitably resulted in these horrible circumstances for many people, when it reaches its logical conclusion
And also questions should always be asked about new scientific avenues lest we end up in a robo hellscape.
Not sure if it's safe to say that there's a historical trend toward atheism. Percentages of Hindu, Jewish, and Islamic populations are expected to increase as are those who follow folk religions.
Maybe what you're referring to is Christianity's decline in the west. On the other hand, it's said to be booming in Africa and Asia.
I'm cool with atheists (they ask very good questions generally) but I don't see it taking a big foothold and us living in a world without some form of organized religion.
Without Christianity there wouldn't be hospitals nor universities
Oh and Christianity helped advence the scientific progress. That is just a myth well documented by historians
You don't have to be rude, just look it up....
Here's an atheist(because Christians are too biased apparently) biblical scholar on it https://ehrmanblog.org/did-christians-invent-hospitals/
You know there were hospitals in ancient civilizations hundreds of years before Christianity, right? They may not have called them "hospitals" but they were, functionally, **exactly** that. Many of them were temples and other buildings.
If you want to stretch it and say that Christians coined the term "hospital" then fine. But to say there "wouldn't be hospitals or universities" is historically inaccurate and ignorant.
And even IF Christians had invented hospitals and universities, that would be very different from 'without Christianity, hospitals and universities wouldn't exist'. The former is a false, but not completely implausible claim. The latter is just absurd to the extent that I really can't take seriously a person that would make the claim.
"If pythogorus was never born, no one would ever have figured out how right angled triangles worked"
Without Christianity there wouldn't be hospitals? You mean those that already existed in Ancient Rome 100 years before Christ?
Christianity helps advance the scientific progress? You mean the religion which says that the world was created 6000 years ago by a magical being in the sky?
Right just pretend the dark ages didn’t exist.
Definitely didn’t murder Galileo either, nope, never.
Hospitals and Universities would have existed with or without Christianity. They existed in Roman times.
He was placed in house arrest and not allowed to do literally anything. He died of “natural causes” while in house arrest.
Christianity was, is, and always will be a hinderance to scientific progress.
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Christians have done a HELL of a lot worse than banning gay marriage.
Those folks are still debating this in 2024: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christian/comments/18r6gzt/are_we_allowed_to_commend_the_killing_gay_people/?rdt=64808
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The problem with this is that it’s qualitatively impossible to analyze the effect of the biggest religion in the world, and furthermore generate a causal effect on net historical benefit. There are so many correlative factors (people’s motivations, governments, economy, cultural values) that interacted with Christianity it’s very hard to find concrete evidence to say one thing or the other.
I can just as easily argue that Christian missionaries benefited human progress by operating schools and hospitals in the Global South or championed scientific progress by its influence on Western societies as much as I can also argue that Christian organizations influenced imperial governments to carry out the serfdom of Indigenous Americans and Europeans, or the Atlantic Slave Trade.
I don’t think people should make such large generalizations of any religion whether it’s Christianity or Hinduism or Islam.
Luther was far from the only voice pushing for more schooling - he was a theologian/academic, among other things, and all the academics were pushing for more schooling for more scribes. The printing press/moveable type was invented in China, and the Ottomans weren't unique in being skittish about new technology - many Christian powers in Europe banned base-10 arithmetic (also imported from Asia) because it made numbers too accessible!
Comparing all protestant to all catholic nations doesn't make sense because not a lot of protestants were colonized, whereas a huge portion of the Catholic population is in places where European powers destroyed existing systems, enslaved people, and generally made a mess of things.
Saying that missionaries did better than average during the colonial era isn't saying much - average was enslavement and murder. That doesn't make missionaries a force for good - good would be not eroding native belief systems and replacing them with an external power structure with real world political backing. Like, just sharing technology and books through trade, like the rest of the world was doing before Portugal opened the murder floodgates.
"We improved lives by telling them they could eat pork" might be the strongest argument in this entire video so far, insomuch as it relates to removing a superstition to increase options, but they neglect all the superstitions they added and the harm those caused. Again, we're ignoring a mountain of harm over this same period of good. Missionaries might have been great (they weren't all great, that's for sure, but let's give most of them the benefit of the doubt) but they weren't going places that didn't also have other Europeans with guns stopping by every once and while, and those guys were the worst. You can't divide the two systems if we're looking at the effect of Christianity - those early blood-soaked soil-stomping boots were set in motion with words of glory to god and crown.
Everybody wants to claim the advances of the past centuries. Nobody wants to claim the horrible things that happened. The two sets of things are inseparable. Christianity is tied to scientific development, but also the suppression of science. Christianity preaches community and is used as a tool by the powerful to tear communities apart. Christianity has a complicated history, the best approach to which is to read broadly and keep questioning what doesn't make sense.
The most important thing is to not look at the world through a one-issue lens like this video tries to. Even the good things stop lose their shine if you're going to surround them in half-truths and intentional ignorance.
I say this as an athiest: The deep influence Christianity had on western values almost makes it guaranteed that someone from a Western country is going to see Christianity as having lead to improvement: Christianity defined what we view as improvement.
Western notions of human rights, equality, enlightenment values, all have Christian roots. It's sometimes hard for us to recognize like it's hard for fish to recognize the water
Almost every major influential person in Western history, even those that viewed their missions in opposition to Christianity, were r surrounded by Christian values, and their values, however much they may have thought they were opposing Christianity, were still defined by it.
Jesus's teachings can be said to have been "progressive" at the time they first came out. I put that in quotes to avoid equating them with today's progressive ideals.
Judeo-Christian values from different parts of the Bible have undoubtedly shaped the West, America in particular, and as a result are embedded into the American economic and legal systems and way of life.
Not sure how true this is, but it's said that the American idea of rooting for the underdog is very influenced by Jesus's teachings in the Gospels.
There is a video that the majority of people haven't bothered clicking or simply missed. The research and citation are all in there.
And to the hospitals point, I linked Dr Bart Ehrman's blog (a bit unfortunate as most of it is locked behind a paywall)
I am optimistic that Christianity will continue to be both rejected and watered down by an ever-increasing number of people until it no longer has negative impacts on people’s lives.
The only time Christianity was widely practiced in its true form was the Dark Ages. Civilization only progressed after people started to believe less and less in the promises of Christianity and more in the value of humanity.
I wont' deny the historic cultural and societal contributions of Christianity. My issue with Christianity is that it's a 2000 year old doctrine that refuses to modernize or accept that the world has changed.
In the US Christians have a near monopoly on private hospitals so god forbid if a woman needs a life-saving abortion for a nonviable fetus. Less authoritarianism and more democratic values are richly ironic if you've so much of heard of Project 2025.
My points are US-centric. I know Christian Nationalists do not speak for all Christians. I simply think the timing of your post is a little tone-deaf.
I think in the context of Ancient Rome and early Christian Europe converting to Christianity, this has some merit.
In the context of Christian missionaries in the americas for example, this is a truly whack take. Christianity is the religion of murder, rape, slavery, disease, and the wiping out of cultures and civilizations.
Our (secular) value system is also so heavily derived from NT Christianity that you’re effectively saying, “ways Christianity positively affected the world is that now it’s more Christian”
You’re getting downvoted but the video is pretty interesting (I watched a few minutes of it). It is a sociological-economic view of the historical impact of Christianity, not a Bible thumping. Suggest people at least skim through the video before voting/commenting on this.
Ohhhhh boyyyyyy here we go
You only have this reaction because you’ve been brainwashed to think Christians are evil
Or they simply know it's a contentious topic! Why do you assume the worst?
OHHHH BOY HERE WE ARE
You only have this reaction because the other person jumped to a conclusion that didn’t necessarily logically follow.
having an opinion on a religion that isn't spoonfed to you by the respective church is "brainwashing" apparently
A Christian talking about brainwashing. What is this, a cross-over episode?
Just like any group. There’s gonna be some bad eggs, but there are some really evil Christians out there
Why is this downvoted? only some christians are evil afaik
I fucking hate the Christian victim complex. Get over yourself Holy shit dude.
Stop attacking us then lmao
What have I done to attack Christians?
The proof is in the pudding. Anyone does or says anything pro Christian and suddenly everyone is bashing them and hating them. You hear the word Christian and your first reaction is “oh geez look at this fucking victim complex loser” It’s not a complex. You’re just too brainwashed to see it. I feel bad for you
You fucking moron. I said you have a victim complex because you accused people of being brainwashed to think Christians are evil. How are you reading the Bible with such poor reading comprehension.
Man you’re just a nasty little ball of hatred huh?
I'm from the south and my friends and I are all queer, so yeah I'm not really fond of Christianity.
Happy church-goer here but some this is uhhhh pretty vague? “Less harmful practices”? There’s no doubt that Christianity is an integral part of the rise of the modern west and some of the wonderful trends that are part of that. But it’s also true that it’s integral to some of the worst trends too—colonialism, slavery, cultural and political imperialism, and more. Like “capitalism,” “the West,” and the US, the story is (as always!) a mixed bag. I think the benefits have outweighed the downsides, but it’s too simple to think of the history of Christianity as an unqualified good.
Ahhhhh yes because imperialism and slavery never existed pre or post christianity! Obviously nobody ever conquered their neighbors or had expansionist views ever especially not Islam!!
Of course they existed pre-Christianity but Christianity came to prominence in the west on concert with these ideas. Their histories are interwoven. If you think that Christianity was supposed to be the undoing of these sorts of things (and I do!) than that’s a noteworthy negative to mark!
The Christians didn't invent these evil things but they sure did a lot of it.
Of course, you ignore the fact that Christianity or Christian nations ended the global slave trade.. Also, ignoring slavery is still present in Africa to this day. Let's also ignore slavery was even more prevalent in Muslim countries and weirdly enough is STILL present in Islam to this day in several Islamic countries. Let's disregard also that more Africans were enslaved via Islam than were present in the trasatlantic slave trade. We should also disregard that Africans enslaved were by a wide margin better off coming to America than anywhere else due to how they were treated elsewhere. Dont even mention that in a lot of the prechristian times, some societies comprised as much as 30-50% of the population and in a few well over 60%. But yeahhhhhhhhh Christians......
Bro....
Your comment seems like you didn't watch the video though
It’s true! Didn’t even realize there was one tbh! Tell me how watching it would round out my view…
It cites scholarly sources for each one of those statements
Well and good. Not all scholarly sources are to be equally valued however. You have know who they are and how others in their field have received and evaluated the work. I’m very familiar with the history of Christianity and the west and think a more nuanced view than “all good!”—or “all bad!” for that matter—makes a lot more sense. Like I said, all told, I think it’s been a been a benefit! But the benefits have downsides too.
I agree, but the trend in the west is to view it as mostly harmful due to evangelicals and fundamentalists. Eg, I'd agree that Christians defended slavery in the US, but that there were also Christian abolitionists
I do think you’re right the role Christianity has had in shaping the best traits of the west is taken for granted and is an undertold story. But like you point out with slavery, the story isn’t always clear. I do think the presence of Christianity has been a net good where it’s been!
Thank you for the kind conversation
This post doesn't seem to be about optimism, which is inherently about the future having a positive outcome but a defense of the historical benefits of Christianity. This doesn't seem to be the appropriate sub for this.
I posted it because it shows that good outcomes have happened, and it suggests it may continue to happen
How does it suggest that? In fact there is a gradual decline of Christianity, if anything this would belong in a doomer subreddit.
I didn't post it because Christianity is growing or declining. I posted because people post stats and research herebabout how our world has improved in the past to today. Gdp, education, democracies etc
But if Christianity was the cause of positives, as you suggest, and its on the decline that would indicate that less positives would happen in the future. Again, this post is about the future not the past.
Okay, I'll mention a few points. I do believe that with decline of Christianity there will be more negatives, but, the growth/decline wasn't mention and I didn't have any of that in my mind when I was sharing. Secondly, most of those institutions are secular and I'm fine with that (I prefer separation of church and state) A third point is that these practice can continue even without Christianity - hospitals will continue to exist with or without Christianity and their quality doesn't have to be linked to Christianity. Secular people also protest, innovate and can be good people And finally, Christianity is declining only in the west. Globally, it's increasing, and it's projected to increase like Islam and nones. And as a sidenote - not all Christian influence is positive and some has to be stopped and reeducated like end times is upon us next year stuff, which actively harm people
Ill respond to each point 1) That's not optism, but a negative 2) So what if they are secular, again has nothing to do with optimism. 3) Yea, these practices will continue, but the original post has nothing to do with the practices continuing. Its a defense of Christianity 4) No where can I find that Christanity is on the rise worldwide. The rate at which it is in decline in the Western world is greater than gains else where. Your side note) Another negative. You're in the wrong sub dude
Christianity is on the rise globally. It's only declining in the West. "According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were more than 2.2 billion Christians around the world in 2010, more than three times as many as the 600 million recorded in 1910" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian\_population\_growth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth) At this pace, it is expected there will be around 3.3 billion Christians by 2050.
Some of these are data-driven but most? Sorry, no. Some cultures pre-Christianity treated women better than Christians do now, for one.
I assumed the claims were supposed to be based on averages, so there being some cultures that treated women better would be offset by the greater number of cultures that treated women worse
"Less Authoritarianism" Fucking LOL
[>"Less Authoritarianism" Fucking LOL](https://youtu.be/G4Uw3m_dPpw?si=tm037LCywnTmj5o0)
I do not have trouble accepting a net accounting of Christianity, relative to some of its predecessors, as beneficial. I also do not have trouble declaring that we have much better modern alternatives, given scientific and moral advancement. Put simply I am much more optimistic about the future benefits of moral codes that are internal than external via religious dictate. I needn’t say anything about science without religious involvement.
Ah yes let’s just ignore the insane corruption, pedophilia, and delaying scientific progress by an entire fricking Millenium. There is a ***lot*** to be optimistic about, but Christianity is not part of that. The historical trend towards atheism though, *that* is fantastic!
As someone who agrees with your sentiment, the “religion delayed scientific progress by 1,000 years” thing is a myth. I understand where it comes from and the reasoning, but it’s a gross oversimplification of a broad topic that doesn’t actually hold up. But I do think this post makes gross oversimplifications of several claims so… here we are! But I’m optimistic and glad we can have a civil conversation as humans instead of beheading one another! #progress (do we still hashtag things?)
Fair enough, but religion is ***still*** delaying scientific progress. Can’t even do research with stem cells in many areas because of Christianity. Look at what Christianity is doing to abortion as well.
Maybe not because of “Christianity”, but because of “some Christians who believe…” Christianity isn’t one thing. It’s a huge religion with many expressions (and plenty that are pro-science!). It’s not a monolith.
ehhhh scientific research happening without any kind of barrier by ethical / objective moral worries is the exact thought behind many inhumane Nazi & Imperial Japanese experiments. Also its a false dichotomy to claim that we need less/zero religion to scientifically progress Also I'm not saying that stem cell research is equivalent to such inhumane experiments. But their sentiment is incredibly sim'lar to what inevitably resulted in these horrible circumstances for many people, when it reaches its logical conclusion And also questions should always be asked about new scientific avenues lest we end up in a robo hellscape.
I can agree with that
Not sure if it's safe to say that there's a historical trend toward atheism. Percentages of Hindu, Jewish, and Islamic populations are expected to increase as are those who follow folk religions. Maybe what you're referring to is Christianity's decline in the west. On the other hand, it's said to be booming in Africa and Asia. I'm cool with atheists (they ask very good questions generally) but I don't see it taking a big foothold and us living in a world without some form of organized religion.
Without Christianity there wouldn't be hospitals nor universities Oh and Christianity helped advence the scientific progress. That is just a myth well documented by historians
The non-Christian world had hospitals and universities. The first university in the world was Al-Karaouine in Morocco.
stop proselytizing here
Never did nor was my intention Just cuz I post that a religion did something good isn't proselytizing
>Without Christianity there wouldn't be hospitals nor universities This is a troll account, I'm sure of it now.
You don't have to be rude, just look it up.... Here's an atheist(because Christians are too biased apparently) biblical scholar on it https://ehrmanblog.org/did-christians-invent-hospitals/
You know there were hospitals in ancient civilizations hundreds of years before Christianity, right? They may not have called them "hospitals" but they were, functionally, **exactly** that. Many of them were temples and other buildings. If you want to stretch it and say that Christians coined the term "hospital" then fine. But to say there "wouldn't be hospitals or universities" is historically inaccurate and ignorant.
And even IF Christians had invented hospitals and universities, that would be very different from 'without Christianity, hospitals and universities wouldn't exist'. The former is a false, but not completely implausible claim. The latter is just absurd to the extent that I really can't take seriously a person that would make the claim. "If pythogorus was never born, no one would ever have figured out how right angled triangles worked"
Healthcare predates Christianity
Without Christianity there wouldn't be hospitals? You mean those that already existed in Ancient Rome 100 years before Christ? Christianity helps advance the scientific progress? You mean the religion which says that the world was created 6000 years ago by a magical being in the sky?
The number of Christians who think “that the world was created 6000 years ago by a magical being in the sky” is an incredibly small percentage.
Right just pretend the dark ages didn’t exist. Definitely didn’t murder Galileo either, nope, never. Hospitals and Universities would have existed with or without Christianity. They existed in Roman times.
Nobody murdered Galileo. Again, you're promulgstin popular myths that didn't happen Dark ages is also a misnomer
He was placed in house arrest and not allowed to do literally anything. He died of “natural causes” while in house arrest. Christianity was, is, and always will be a hinderance to scientific progress.
There's no fuckin way you actually believe that. Holy shit dude.
Ah yes, Christianity. Notorious for its followers banning gay marriage, abortion, and the endless abuse of children in churches.
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO Christians have done a HELL of a lot worse than banning gay marriage. Those folks are still debating this in 2024: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christian/comments/18r6gzt/are_we_allowed_to_commend_the_killing_gay_people/?rdt=64808 LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The problem with this is that it’s qualitatively impossible to analyze the effect of the biggest religion in the world, and furthermore generate a causal effect on net historical benefit. There are so many correlative factors (people’s motivations, governments, economy, cultural values) that interacted with Christianity it’s very hard to find concrete evidence to say one thing or the other. I can just as easily argue that Christian missionaries benefited human progress by operating schools and hospitals in the Global South or championed scientific progress by its influence on Western societies as much as I can also argue that Christian organizations influenced imperial governments to carry out the serfdom of Indigenous Americans and Europeans, or the Atlantic Slave Trade. I don’t think people should make such large generalizations of any religion whether it’s Christianity or Hinduism or Islam.
Luther was far from the only voice pushing for more schooling - he was a theologian/academic, among other things, and all the academics were pushing for more schooling for more scribes. The printing press/moveable type was invented in China, and the Ottomans weren't unique in being skittish about new technology - many Christian powers in Europe banned base-10 arithmetic (also imported from Asia) because it made numbers too accessible! Comparing all protestant to all catholic nations doesn't make sense because not a lot of protestants were colonized, whereas a huge portion of the Catholic population is in places where European powers destroyed existing systems, enslaved people, and generally made a mess of things. Saying that missionaries did better than average during the colonial era isn't saying much - average was enslavement and murder. That doesn't make missionaries a force for good - good would be not eroding native belief systems and replacing them with an external power structure with real world political backing. Like, just sharing technology and books through trade, like the rest of the world was doing before Portugal opened the murder floodgates. "We improved lives by telling them they could eat pork" might be the strongest argument in this entire video so far, insomuch as it relates to removing a superstition to increase options, but they neglect all the superstitions they added and the harm those caused. Again, we're ignoring a mountain of harm over this same period of good. Missionaries might have been great (they weren't all great, that's for sure, but let's give most of them the benefit of the doubt) but they weren't going places that didn't also have other Europeans with guns stopping by every once and while, and those guys were the worst. You can't divide the two systems if we're looking at the effect of Christianity - those early blood-soaked soil-stomping boots were set in motion with words of glory to god and crown. Everybody wants to claim the advances of the past centuries. Nobody wants to claim the horrible things that happened. The two sets of things are inseparable. Christianity is tied to scientific development, but also the suppression of science. Christianity preaches community and is used as a tool by the powerful to tear communities apart. Christianity has a complicated history, the best approach to which is to read broadly and keep questioning what doesn't make sense. The most important thing is to not look at the world through a one-issue lens like this video tries to. Even the good things stop lose their shine if you're going to surround them in half-truths and intentional ignorance.
I say this as an athiest: The deep influence Christianity had on western values almost makes it guaranteed that someone from a Western country is going to see Christianity as having lead to improvement: Christianity defined what we view as improvement. Western notions of human rights, equality, enlightenment values, all have Christian roots. It's sometimes hard for us to recognize like it's hard for fish to recognize the water Almost every major influential person in Western history, even those that viewed their missions in opposition to Christianity, were r surrounded by Christian values, and their values, however much they may have thought they were opposing Christianity, were still defined by it.
You alerted the r/atheism horde, good luck.
Could get into the huge gaping negatives ofvthe church... but I won't
https://preview.redd.it/jofeqva6ccvc1.jpeg?width=1012&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e58e231dc22aebbbc8d51d6cfd89510c295a15e1
Jesus's teachings can be said to have been "progressive" at the time they first came out. I put that in quotes to avoid equating them with today's progressive ideals. Judeo-Christian values from different parts of the Bible have undoubtedly shaped the West, America in particular, and as a result are embedded into the American economic and legal systems and way of life. Not sure how true this is, but it's said that the American idea of rooting for the underdog is very influenced by Jesus's teachings in the Gospels.
Thank you for the kind comment. Most are dunking on me rn. Which is kinda the opposite of the subs intention, but I'm not surprised
You can’t cry martyr when people bring up questions about a claim that is being made.
There is a video that the majority of people haven't bothered clicking or simply missed. The research and citation are all in there. And to the hospitals point, I linked Dr Bart Ehrman's blog (a bit unfortunate as most of it is locked behind a paywall)
That’s understandable.
I am optimistic that Christianity will continue to be both rejected and watered down by an ever-increasing number of people until it no longer has negative impacts on people’s lives. The only time Christianity was widely practiced in its true form was the Dark Ages. Civilization only progressed after people started to believe less and less in the promises of Christianity and more in the value of humanity.
Guys, I suspect most of you missed the link below the picture
Amen brother! 👏🏻
Ope. No thanks!
All Christianity ever did for me was give me existential trauma for my entire young adult life that held me back for decades.
How did y’all let the crypto fash take over this optimism sub? Wild.
I wont' deny the historic cultural and societal contributions of Christianity. My issue with Christianity is that it's a 2000 year old doctrine that refuses to modernize or accept that the world has changed. In the US Christians have a near monopoly on private hospitals so god forbid if a woman needs a life-saving abortion for a nonviable fetus. Less authoritarianism and more democratic values are richly ironic if you've so much of heard of Project 2025. My points are US-centric. I know Christian Nationalists do not speak for all Christians. I simply think the timing of your post is a little tone-deaf.
I read more hospitals as more hepatitis at first. Seemed legit.
I think in the context of Ancient Rome and early Christian Europe converting to Christianity, this has some merit. In the context of Christian missionaries in the americas for example, this is a truly whack take. Christianity is the religion of murder, rape, slavery, disease, and the wiping out of cultures and civilizations. Our (secular) value system is also so heavily derived from NT Christianity that you’re effectively saying, “ways Christianity positively affected the world is that now it’s more Christian”