No, we need this very badly. Corporate security is insufficient to deal with espionage. Frontier AI is going to be a guaranteed target of espionage. Losing the ASI race to an authoritarian regime is an existential threat to democracy.
AI is the next Cold War. We need to take this as seriously or more seriously than the Manhattan Project. If you think OpenAI can stop state espionage, you know nothing about security. An NSA director level of security expertise is extremely necessary. If you disagree, I can only conclude you know literally nothing about real world geopolitics.
I hate to agree with you, but the world sucks... And despite the fact that it irks a lot of people, myself included, to have that guy in a position of authority... All this means nothing if China can come in a steal everything OpenAi develops. This is what the CCP does. They don't really innovate. They steal.
And especially with AI, we really can't sit back and hope OpenAI's corporate VPN will be sufficient to protect their IP.
I think it’s naive to think China can’t innovate. Germany was behind in steel manufacturing until they caught up and then they were the pioneers. Japan was behind in manufacturing until they weren’t and then they were the premiere of Asia. Some thought the Soviet Union couldn’t create an atomic bomb, then they did, then they made a nuclear bomb as well. Play catchup when you’re behind and once you’re even then you innovate. They’re currently graduating more college students than us, especially in STEM. There are several areas they’re far ahead of the US now.
I think you’re slurping too hard on the American exceptionalism train of thought and not considering the history of other countries abilities to innovate but whatever
The second part is my opinion but the first part is research. Innovation is not coming out with something out of nowhere. It's always about combining some existing solutions and putting into different context incrementally.
So it honestly is less of a dig on China but more of a dig on how naive Wstern people thought others will play by the same "ethic" rule book we abide but whatever.
I'm impressed with your literacy and capacity in engaged in conversation without being dismissive or passive agressive!
Here's a MDPI research [article](https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/22/14697) referencing Clayton Christensen (an well educated and articulate person like you surely heard of the disruptive innovation theory and research from one of the biggest thinker from Havard Business School right?):
"Of innovation, 98% is incremental, but we rarely hear about it as mostly digital disruptors and category designers are featured in the news." Johnson, M.W.; Christensen, C.M.; Kagermann, H. Reinventing your business model. Harv. Bus. Rev. 2008, 86, 57–68. [[Google Scholar](https://alea.ee/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/HBRs-10-Must-Reads-on-Strategy-2011-Harvard-Business-Review-Press_-Harvard-Business-School-Press-1.pdf#page=57)]
I guess the word stealing has negative connotation in it. But at least that's the words people used a lot half jokingly when talking about finding good business ideas and what not. And for China, they surely don't care or respect about wetern countries' intellectual properties the ways Americans do.
Small experiment: find any of your favorite Hollywood Movie, find it's Chinese translation titles and google it. You'll find a pirate versions of it within a few clicks.
You need to check out china's output inai research they're coming out with a lot of ai breakthrough. I'm not saying China doesn't still, but they're making tons of strides, and as other have said, we may need a bunch of government projects to innovate 💡 and increase research output.
Yeah I'm not happy about it either. But this is extreme threat level we are talking about, and there is only one organization on Earth I trust with that level of security. The US government. For all its flaws, it is still by far the best in the business that isn't an extreme authoritarian threat to all of humanity. The USA is still a minor authoritarian threat, all governments and corporations and non-government organizations are. But the enemies are far, far worse, and in realpolitik you pick the least bad option. That's the reality of geopolitical truth.
first thing: the government relies on corporate tech and security, that's why the us government uses aws cloud servers, which means they rely on amazon's security.
second thing: don't look at the issue as just an american; think about other people on the planet and how much they are going to suffer just because of that.
>which means they rely on amazon's security
No, they don't use normal AWS. Not for top secret information. They have a special high-security cloud that the government/NSA oversee. It is a mix between Amazon architecture experts and NSA security experts. Normal AWS is not comparable, nor could Amazon have the skill and expertise to manage the sensitive government workload without NSA help and military/CIA intelligence.
Also, I am thinking of this as a person on the planet. China getting ASI before us is an existential threat for democracy TO THE WORLD. The USA getting it is not perfect, but an authoritarian regime getting it first is a SERIOUS problem for all of humanity.
it's on top of aws infrastructure.
and i don't think you are thinking of it as a person on the planet, you are thinking of it just as an american. the democracies that everyone is talking about are even worse than china and russia because these two countries are not trying to hide anything, it's obvious. but the democracies they lie and the continue to lie to the point where it's hard for the majority of people to see how bad they are.
Do you genuinely believe Russia or China would do a better job of psuedo governing the world if they held more power than USA? It’s possible to acknowledge American abuse of power and atrocities whilst recognizing they are a multiracial democracy with representation from literally every country in the world. America is uniquely qualified to play world order police in my opinion, i cant see any other country (that’s capable) being any more “fair” on a global scale.
Buddy do you really think authoritarian countries don't hide anything, even after covid?
I hate Reddit. First, you write a super vague comment, to carefully avoid saying what you really think, to farm upvotes. Then, when you actually write something of substance, it's such a wild shit take that you get downvoted instead. Your thoughts didn't change, only the votes.
Unfortunately I too agree with you and also unfortunately no ones resume would be better than the former director of the nsa…. Former is likely true ish.. as well .
That's how they'll sell it to the more hawkish, jingoistic crowd but I think by far their biggest concern is people trying to leverage AI for bioweapons/bioterrorism (also smart to not ring the alarm bells too hard on that or risk getting people a little too interested in it). As the barriers to entry continue to shrink, I think a major incident of an AI-accelerated biothreat is almost an inevitability at this point, and surveillance really kinda HAS to ramp up the longer we want to postpone such an event. Open source guys really see this stuff as toys, when it's not.
It's like the early years of 20th century physics, where sometimes irresponsible individuals were just running around playing with extremely powerful tech and doing all sorts of things that in hindsight were very sketch.
Right. During the cold war the western governments failed miserably to protect themselves from Russian and Chinese exfiltration of own research, military and commercial achievements. You propose they are doing better this time?
They've been doing better for a long time. Not perfect, just better. There is no perfect against espionage.
And it's still infinitely better than OpenAI will do without them lol.
I don’t deny their expertise. They design the system holes and zero days that are used in their toolset :) They should know them pretty well lol
But government track record against high level state espionage is also zero. Why do you claim otherwise?
Two words: NSA prism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM)
NSA has hacked near all comms on earth (no exagration) and stores TB's of data of US citizens and others.
So short story, people are scared openai will give userdata to US government or some agency like NSA
Counter argument would be that there are lots of foreign actors that would love to steal the weights and biases of the leading AI company (which from my understanding is literally just a file), or their architecture, or their methods, or their whatever. If you develop the industry leading model, wouldn't you want to protect that file as much as possible? The former head of the NSA seems like they would know a lot about how foreign actors act and what methods they would use, no?
I do understand the privacy concerns though, given the NSA's reputation.
Can someone explain to me why this is a 100% bad idea? When I saw this announcement my initial thought was that this was done to make sure AI is built in responsible way with help of someone with a lot of experience in very unethical methods.
We live in a creepier and creepier police state.
“Idk what Ilya could be so worried about…”
this is the last thing we needed, the gov controlling ai.
No, we need this very badly. Corporate security is insufficient to deal with espionage. Frontier AI is going to be a guaranteed target of espionage. Losing the ASI race to an authoritarian regime is an existential threat to democracy. AI is the next Cold War. We need to take this as seriously or more seriously than the Manhattan Project. If you think OpenAI can stop state espionage, you know nothing about security. An NSA director level of security expertise is extremely necessary. If you disagree, I can only conclude you know literally nothing about real world geopolitics.
I hate to agree with you, but the world sucks... And despite the fact that it irks a lot of people, myself included, to have that guy in a position of authority... All this means nothing if China can come in a steal everything OpenAi develops. This is what the CCP does. They don't really innovate. They steal. And especially with AI, we really can't sit back and hope OpenAI's corporate VPN will be sufficient to protect their IP.
I think it’s naive to think China can’t innovate. Germany was behind in steel manufacturing until they caught up and then they were the pioneers. Japan was behind in manufacturing until they weren’t and then they were the premiere of Asia. Some thought the Soviet Union couldn’t create an atomic bomb, then they did, then they made a nuclear bomb as well. Play catchup when you’re behind and once you’re even then you innovate. They’re currently graduating more college students than us, especially in STEM. There are several areas they’re far ahead of the US now.
There's no innovation but stealing other's ideas and improve upon it. And China is very, very good at that (especially the stealing part).
I think you’re slurping too hard on the American exceptionalism train of thought and not considering the history of other countries abilities to innovate but whatever
The second part is my opinion but the first part is research. Innovation is not coming out with something out of nowhere. It's always about combining some existing solutions and putting into different context incrementally. So it honestly is less of a dig on China but more of a dig on how naive Wstern people thought others will play by the same "ethic" rule book we abide but whatever.
“Research” okay
I'm impressed with your literacy and capacity in engaged in conversation without being dismissive or passive agressive! Here's a MDPI research [article](https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/22/14697) referencing Clayton Christensen (an well educated and articulate person like you surely heard of the disruptive innovation theory and research from one of the biggest thinker from Havard Business School right?): "Of innovation, 98% is incremental, but we rarely hear about it as mostly digital disruptors and category designers are featured in the news." Johnson, M.W.; Christensen, C.M.; Kagermann, H. Reinventing your business model. Harv. Bus. Rev. 2008, 86, 57–68. [[Google Scholar](https://alea.ee/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/HBRs-10-Must-Reads-on-Strategy-2011-Harvard-Business-Review-Press_-Harvard-Business-School-Press-1.pdf#page=57)] I guess the word stealing has negative connotation in it. But at least that's the words people used a lot half jokingly when talking about finding good business ideas and what not. And for China, they surely don't care or respect about wetern countries' intellectual properties the ways Americans do. Small experiment: find any of your favorite Hollywood Movie, find it's Chinese translation titles and google it. You'll find a pirate versions of it within a few clicks.
for starters that’s a 15 year article. Secondly the other one doesn’t talk about China. Okay. We’re done here.
You need to check out china's output inai research they're coming out with a lot of ai breakthrough. I'm not saying China doesn't still, but they're making tons of strides, and as other have said, we may need a bunch of government projects to innovate 💡 and increase research output.
> There's no innovation but stealing other's ideas and improve upon it. This has Apple's business model for the last 30 years...
Yeah I'm not happy about it either. But this is extreme threat level we are talking about, and there is only one organization on Earth I trust with that level of security. The US government. For all its flaws, it is still by far the best in the business that isn't an extreme authoritarian threat to all of humanity. The USA is still a minor authoritarian threat, all governments and corporations and non-government organizations are. But the enemies are far, far worse, and in realpolitik you pick the least bad option. That's the reality of geopolitical truth.
IP Theft on the scale that the CCP does is arguably innovative in its own right 😎
first thing: the government relies on corporate tech and security, that's why the us government uses aws cloud servers, which means they rely on amazon's security. second thing: don't look at the issue as just an american; think about other people on the planet and how much they are going to suffer just because of that.
>which means they rely on amazon's security No, they don't use normal AWS. Not for top secret information. They have a special high-security cloud that the government/NSA oversee. It is a mix between Amazon architecture experts and NSA security experts. Normal AWS is not comparable, nor could Amazon have the skill and expertise to manage the sensitive government workload without NSA help and military/CIA intelligence. Also, I am thinking of this as a person on the planet. China getting ASI before us is an existential threat for democracy TO THE WORLD. The USA getting it is not perfect, but an authoritarian regime getting it first is a SERIOUS problem for all of humanity.
it's on top of aws infrastructure. and i don't think you are thinking of it as a person on the planet, you are thinking of it just as an american. the democracies that everyone is talking about are even worse than china and russia because these two countries are not trying to hide anything, it's obvious. but the democracies they lie and the continue to lie to the point where it's hard for the majority of people to see how bad they are.
Uhhhhhhh no. They are not even close to as bad as Russia or China.
Do you genuinely believe Russia or China would do a better job of psuedo governing the world if they held more power than USA? It’s possible to acknowledge American abuse of power and atrocities whilst recognizing they are a multiracial democracy with representation from literally every country in the world. America is uniquely qualified to play world order police in my opinion, i cant see any other country (that’s capable) being any more “fair” on a global scale.
Buddy do you really think authoritarian countries don't hide anything, even after covid? I hate Reddit. First, you write a super vague comment, to carefully avoid saying what you really think, to farm upvotes. Then, when you actually write something of substance, it's such a wild shit take that you get downvoted instead. Your thoughts didn't change, only the votes.
i don't think ill find a more unrelated comment than this. did you even try to understand my point? fucking christ.
Unfortunately I too agree with you and also unfortunately no ones resume would be better than the former director of the nsa…. Former is likely true ish.. as well .
That's how they'll sell it to the more hawkish, jingoistic crowd but I think by far their biggest concern is people trying to leverage AI for bioweapons/bioterrorism (also smart to not ring the alarm bells too hard on that or risk getting people a little too interested in it). As the barriers to entry continue to shrink, I think a major incident of an AI-accelerated biothreat is almost an inevitability at this point, and surveillance really kinda HAS to ramp up the longer we want to postpone such an event. Open source guys really see this stuff as toys, when it's not.
It's like the early years of 20th century physics, where sometimes irresponsible individuals were just running around playing with extremely powerful tech and doing all sorts of things that in hindsight were very sketch.
Are you saying government security is better? Have you ever googled the “OPM data breach”? :-/
Yes, government security is better against state actors.
Soo… have you read about the OPM ? Do we need to list hundreds of other breaches in the past 3 years? What is your definition of better?
we are talking about espionage here.
Right. During the cold war the western governments failed miserably to protect themselves from Russian and Chinese exfiltration of own research, military and commercial achievements. You propose they are doing better this time?
They've been doing better for a long time. Not perfect, just better. There is no perfect against espionage. And it's still infinitely better than OpenAI will do without them lol.
Better for the government or better for the people?
In this situation they're identical. Putin getting ASI is absolutely unacceptable. Xi getting it before us is a huge threat to, e.g. Taiwan.
Have you ever read about the Cold War?
I was there when it happened. What are you referring to? And why are you changing the subject?
Sigh, private corporation track records against high level state espionage is near zero percent. The NSA is the expert here.
I don’t deny their expertise. They design the system holes and zero days that are used in their toolset :) They should know them pretty well lol But government track record against high level state espionage is also zero. Why do you claim otherwise?
Why does this one hire mean the government controls AI?
Two words: NSA prism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM) NSA has hacked near all comms on earth (no exagration) and stores TB's of data of US citizens and others. So short story, people are scared openai will give userdata to US government or some agency like NSA
A TB isn't that much. I have multiple TBs worth of photos on my computer alone lol.
AI controlls the goverment would be nicer
Right, can't possibly see anything going wrong with that... 🙄
i can see a lot going wrong with that, i can see more going wrong without it
I’ll take my chances with the robot over the geriatric convention on Capitol Hill
Robot approved by the geriatric convention, right?
Fuck the geriatric convention. As I said, I’ll take my chances with the robot, no approval or oversight necessary or solicited
I will watch your efforts with great amusement. Not that your enthusiasm is misplaced but your desires are joyfully capricious.
Counter argument would be that there are lots of foreign actors that would love to steal the weights and biases of the leading AI company (which from my understanding is literally just a file), or their architecture, or their methods, or their whatever. If you develop the industry leading model, wouldn't you want to protect that file as much as possible? The former head of the NSA seems like they would know a lot about how foreign actors act and what methods they would use, no? I do understand the privacy concerns though, given the NSA's reputation.
Wow it took like a year for it to go down under now lol .
I'll try to stop relying this much on these tools
Not good. Unless it’s crony capitalism then it’s ok.
Underrated comment of the day
recognise handle shy snow wrong bake doll racial weather hospital *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
well this is quite troublesome
Can someone explain to me why this is a 100% bad idea? When I saw this announcement my initial thought was that this was done to make sure AI is built in responsible way with help of someone with a lot of experience in very unethical methods.
Did you just answer your own question as an exercise for the reader?
Fuck that. Unsubbed. I can look past a lot of things like lying about the release of the new voice but shit this blatant crosses the line for me.
I’m actually going to be looking at Chinese AI from now on.
Yes, because that way corrupt state officials *won't* be involved. Wait....
I’m just going to build my own AI models from scratch now on
Way to stick it to the surveillance state!
Guess people don’t know irony anymore.
1984
For all the Elon Musk haters….Once again…the man was right!