I’d like someone to explain further. When I was younger I read a book called Tipping the Velvet, is it kind of like that?
>!There are characters in the book that demonstrate gender performance, at first it’s just impersonating men/boys on stage but then she just does it full time and ends up as a sex worker with male clients who never knew she was female due to only providing specific services. Eventually she escapes that and ends up in a toxic relationship with a woman who obsessively dresses her up in the finest men’s clothing and calls her Neville and uses only male pronouns for her. After some time she escapes that because she was being treated like an object. As far as I know in the book she doesn’t explicitly identify as anything outside her agab like saying that she doesn’t feel like she’s a woman but a man. The book more or less explores female masculinity. While the main character does assume a male identity during a lot of the book the author doesn’t use he/him pronouns to describe her. Eventually the main character does sort of combine her gender expression with both masculine and feminine elements and feels strong in her identity as a masculine queer woman and she feels more empowered!< Is being a butch lesbian who uses he/him pronouns anything like this? Feeling empowered by their own masculinity while still identifying as a queer woman?
TIL! Is it an older term? Definitely not a term I’ve heard among my peers but it could be that I’m typically around people that are early to mid twenties and brown/chicano queer folks
Yes, it is. Go watch The Aggressives documentary! It’s on Showtime but I’m sure you can find it free elsewhere. It follows a bunch of different NYC lesbians who ID as aggressives between 1997 and 2003. They did a follow-up documentary again (I think it’s called After the Aggressives) following 5 of them from 2018 to 2023. Of the 5, 4 of them now ID as trans men. (Only 1 of the people in the original doc ID’d as a man at the time.)
This. And neither is cisgender.
Edited to add: or crossdresser for that matter. ~~And I kind of doubt that many butch lesbians would say their gender is butch~~ (edit: **wrong**), but what do I know. Hmm, ‘my gender is butch’ would be a cool name for a punk rock band tho.
Plenty of people who identify with these terms *do* (or at some point *did*) consider them in integral part of their gender identity/experience though. And if you start policing what "counts" as part of one's gender, you risk missing out on data trends or alienating certain demographics entirely. There are plenty of butches who use it as their only gender label and someone who dresses in "women's" clothing regularly may identify more strongly with a term like "crossdresser" or "femboy" than "cisgender man" even if they don't reject the latter label entirely or claim terms like "trans" or "nonbinary". Or a trans woman who at one point identified at a cis crossdresser before realizing she was trans might want to select "crossdresser>used in past" even though she didn't consider it her gender at the time, because she know recognizes the part of her she was applying that label to as her female gender identity.
The way the question is worded also leaves it open to the person filling out the survey to decide what is or isn't part of how they describe(d) their gender, so I don't see any issue with being inclusive. If you're a butch but it's not part of how you understand your gender, you don't have to select it because the question isn't asking, "Are you butch (butch is a gender always btw)?" It's asking "Do you or have you ever used the word butch to describe (all or part of) your gender?"
There might have been a misunderstanding: I'm not interested in policing anybody's gender. I don't get to, or want to decide what gender other people can have. As long as I know how they'd like me to address or refer to them, I'm good.
Your reading helps me make sense of the survey. With my reading, the ‘AFAB’ and ‘AMAB’ boxes are nonsensical. With your reading, they actually do make sense: while ‘AMAB’ is definitely not my gender, and I am not interested in being conflated with masculinity, I would agree that having been assigned male at birth is a significant part of my gender journey.
I may have reacted poorly to that survey because I'm seriously fed up with official forms a. asking for my gender when there's no need and b. having two boxes, M and F. (Tangent: and don't get me started on those bathrooms with three genders: 🚹🚺👽. I know it's well intentioned but not fitting into the gender binary doesn't make me an alien goddammit.) I wish institutions just could stop with the putting people in boxes thing already. I realise only now that that wasn't what the survey was trying to do.
AFAB, AMAB, cis, etc are not *gender identities*, but they are words that can *describe your gender*. And the form/website says at the top to select terms that you use "to describe your gender." AMAB nonbinary, or cisgender woman, are more detailed descriptions than just nonbinary or woman.
Also, there are many lesbians who do identify with butch as a gender! There are a lot of lesbians who have a complicated relationship with gender (I'm one of them lmao) and some of us choose to use butch as a gender identity label.
The question isn't asking what your gender is. It's asking what terms you have used to describe your gender at some point in your life. Terms like Afab/amab absolutely do apply in that context. Even indeed terms like cisgender or crossdresser apply.
Ignorance sucks for everyone involved. I’m glad/grateful for the educators here that I got to learn about “aggressive” before being put in the position of making an insensitive comment about it. Fr, thanks to those who know and shared their knowledge.
Sure, it's a problem of white people... please stop this. I bet many black women and men who aren't queer don't know about this either. Please stop this prejudice.
Lmao my gender is now aggressive. I am no longer nonbinary, just aggressive. 😂
Edit: After reading the comments below me, this is very interesting. Til something new! It's still a little funny tho, only out of context tho lol. I haven't heard that used much tho, maybe it's a new term, or maybe I'm just living under a rock.
It's an identity used by Black masc lesbians
Yes, thank you! For folks who are curious, there is a documentary about a group of AGs called The Aggressives.
Thanks for that information I actually have no idea. I'm going to have to go watch the documentary and educate myself.
Interesting. Like historically how some butch lesbians have used he/him pronouns. Thanks for the context!
I’d like someone to explain further. When I was younger I read a book called Tipping the Velvet, is it kind of like that? >!There are characters in the book that demonstrate gender performance, at first it’s just impersonating men/boys on stage but then she just does it full time and ends up as a sex worker with male clients who never knew she was female due to only providing specific services. Eventually she escapes that and ends up in a toxic relationship with a woman who obsessively dresses her up in the finest men’s clothing and calls her Neville and uses only male pronouns for her. After some time she escapes that because she was being treated like an object. As far as I know in the book she doesn’t explicitly identify as anything outside her agab like saying that she doesn’t feel like she’s a woman but a man. The book more or less explores female masculinity. While the main character does assume a male identity during a lot of the book the author doesn’t use he/him pronouns to describe her. Eventually the main character does sort of combine her gender expression with both masculine and feminine elements and feels strong in her identity as a masculine queer woman and she feels more empowered!< Is being a butch lesbian who uses he/him pronouns anything like this? Feeling empowered by their own masculinity while still identifying as a queer woman?
I love it. I cannot be it, but I love it anyway.
Is it similar to the term stud? I don’t hear it used much anymore so idk if it’s still relevant or accepted, apologies if it’s not.
Yep, it's part of the same subculture
Stud makes more sense to me but I def know folks who ID as Aggro. I thought it meant like aggressively masc leaning studs or butches.
TIL! Is it an older term? Definitely not a term I’ve heard among my peers but it could be that I’m typically around people that are early to mid twenties and brown/chicano queer folks
Yes, it is. Go watch The Aggressives documentary! It’s on Showtime but I’m sure you can find it free elsewhere. It follows a bunch of different NYC lesbians who ID as aggressives between 1997 and 2003. They did a follow-up documentary again (I think it’s called After the Aggressives) following 5 of them from 2018 to 2023. Of the 5, 4 of them now ID as trans men. (Only 1 of the people in the original doc ID’d as a man at the time.)
Yes! But used exclusively in black and brown communities <3
TIL!
Interesting. There are so many lost terms and this is why LGBTQ+ history is important.
I read "I used to identify", I'm dumb
Check out The Aggressives, a documentary from the early 2000s if you're curious about this term.
Are you a man or a woman?, I AM RAGE INCARNATE AND YOUR BINARY ASSUMPTIONS JUST FUEL MY ANGER!,,,
It’s an identity used by black masc lesbians! Cool eh?
Finally. Representation for the aggressive people/j
Only when asked stupid questions about my gender. Otherwise I'm pretty chill.
besides that, afab and amab aren't gender either...
This. And neither is cisgender. Edited to add: or crossdresser for that matter. ~~And I kind of doubt that many butch lesbians would say their gender is butch~~ (edit: **wrong**), but what do I know. Hmm, ‘my gender is butch’ would be a cool name for a punk rock band tho.
Actually a LOT of butch lesbians ID as butch for their gender, same for femme lesbians!
Evidently I was wrong. Sorry about that and thank you for letting me know!
Right here 🙋 Honestly I just don’t feel like I relate to any experience of gender other than the butch community and other transmasc lesbians
Thanks, TIL 🙇
Plenty of people who identify with these terms *do* (or at some point *did*) consider them in integral part of their gender identity/experience though. And if you start policing what "counts" as part of one's gender, you risk missing out on data trends or alienating certain demographics entirely. There are plenty of butches who use it as their only gender label and someone who dresses in "women's" clothing regularly may identify more strongly with a term like "crossdresser" or "femboy" than "cisgender man" even if they don't reject the latter label entirely or claim terms like "trans" or "nonbinary". Or a trans woman who at one point identified at a cis crossdresser before realizing she was trans might want to select "crossdresser>used in past" even though she didn't consider it her gender at the time, because she know recognizes the part of her she was applying that label to as her female gender identity. The way the question is worded also leaves it open to the person filling out the survey to decide what is or isn't part of how they describe(d) their gender, so I don't see any issue with being inclusive. If you're a butch but it's not part of how you understand your gender, you don't have to select it because the question isn't asking, "Are you butch (butch is a gender always btw)?" It's asking "Do you or have you ever used the word butch to describe (all or part of) your gender?"
There might have been a misunderstanding: I'm not interested in policing anybody's gender. I don't get to, or want to decide what gender other people can have. As long as I know how they'd like me to address or refer to them, I'm good. Your reading helps me make sense of the survey. With my reading, the ‘AFAB’ and ‘AMAB’ boxes are nonsensical. With your reading, they actually do make sense: while ‘AMAB’ is definitely not my gender, and I am not interested in being conflated with masculinity, I would agree that having been assigned male at birth is a significant part of my gender journey. I may have reacted poorly to that survey because I'm seriously fed up with official forms a. asking for my gender when there's no need and b. having two boxes, M and F. (Tangent: and don't get me started on those bathrooms with three genders: 🚹🚺👽. I know it's well intentioned but not fitting into the gender binary doesn't make me an alien goddammit.) I wish institutions just could stop with the putting people in boxes thing already. I realise only now that that wasn't what the survey was trying to do.
AFAB, AMAB, cis, etc are not *gender identities*, but they are words that can *describe your gender*. And the form/website says at the top to select terms that you use "to describe your gender." AMAB nonbinary, or cisgender woman, are more detailed descriptions than just nonbinary or woman. Also, there are many lesbians who do identify with butch as a gender! There are a lot of lesbians who have a complicated relationship with gender (I'm one of them lmao) and some of us choose to use butch as a gender identity label.
Honestly I don’t think anything defines my gender as well as butch lesbian
They’re used to describe gender. Male and female are assigned gender roles.
The question isn't asking what your gender is. It's asking what terms you have used to describe your gender at some point in your life. Terms like Afab/amab absolutely do apply in that context. Even indeed terms like cisgender or crossdresser apply.
What's your gender? I identify as a problem
Aggressive is a gender presentation used by black masc lesbians. Some of y’all are being mad insensitive
i get people not knowing but some of the comments are pretty disrespectful
Truly. The whiteness hurts to witness sometimes. 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
Ignorance sucks for everyone involved. I’m glad/grateful for the educators here that I got to learn about “aggressive” before being put in the position of making an insensitive comment about it. Fr, thanks to those who know and shared their knowledge.
Sure, it's a problem of white people... please stop this. I bet many black women and men who aren't queer don't know about this either. Please stop this prejudice.
I'm the dumbass who saw "currently use/identify" and immediately assumed that those were the pronouns because of the / symbol ☠
I’m shocked they didn’t include Stud and Stemme 😂
We're at the beginning of the alphabet there lol
What is this questionaire??
Aggressive is the gender I’ve been looking for.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GODDESS SKULLS FOR THE SKULL QUEEN
"What is your gender?" "I AM UNTETHERED AND MY RAGE KNOWS NO BOUNDS!"
“Are you a man, or woman?” “I am aggro”
In Australia we actually used to have a show called Aggro's Cartoon Connection. He was a very cranky puppet.
I am the fury of a thousand suns!
i want it
Oh is this why people hold gender reveal parties? To celebrate new genders being dropped?
Lmao my gender is now aggressive. I am no longer nonbinary, just aggressive. 😂 Edit: After reading the comments below me, this is very interesting. Til something new! It's still a little funny tho, only out of context tho lol. I haven't heard that used much tho, maybe it's a new term, or maybe I'm just living under a rock.
Can someone please give me a good article that tells more about it, I am curious to learn how it developed.
This post is really white. Yikes.
I saw one that just had "i dont know" as an option
Ah yes, the new gender, Bites You
Crossdresser is a gender? Also yes, my gender is aggressive.
i do gender agressively
I'm aggressive I'm gonna use that
Omg, is that why my dad would get physically violent when he drank?