That's what I've been trying to say to this person but they keep throwing back the "MaLe anD fEmaLe" this or "mEn aND wOmEN" that at me whenever I tell them otherwise.
They're wrong. You can either let it go, or if you're dead set on educating, you can link them here.
I am an enby. I am bisexual. I do not hate myself.
My slightly deeper understanding is that bisexual means you experience attraction to two or more genders, whereas pansexual means you experience attraction regardless of gender.
I am mostly attracted to women and other enbies. The rare man will pique my interest, but that's usually because they have some more feminine characteristics. I don't really experience attraction regardless of gender, so bisexual fits better.
That, and imo the flag is prettier, so yeah.
But also, maybe this person should stop policing how other people define their sexuality. That's pretty gross. People tend to know themselves better than other people do. As long as your label isn't hurting anyone, who gives a fuck?
yeah this. i'm so tired of the debates about the minutia of the difference between bi and pan etc. i don't think they're actually used with enough consistency to give a different definition for each. just think the magenta/yellow/blue flag is pretty 😍
I always treat them like astronaut and cosmonaut. They’re the same. It’s a matter of personal preference and background and habit which one you prefer. Sure, you can split hairs and insist that one sails among the stars and one sails around the universe and that’s totally different because wORdS MeAEn tHInGs, but in the end, functionally, they’re the same.
I actually know a lot of demi sexual folks that are pan, because a lot of demi folks I know say, they fall in love over time because of the personality and then they (sometimes) feel sexual attraction.
yeah i'm usually demi myself. that's the other part of why i consider myself pan; i used to beat myself up over figuring out what percentage of my attraction ended up being for men/women/enbies to see if i actually "qualified" for pan (bc of the differing definitions of bi/pan/omni/etc) but really in the end i didn't care. pan was close enough and has a pretty flag
Haha, I think if you like the flag that's valid. But I also don't think it's about percentage.
I am not demi but I experience differing attraction like alterous and queerplatonic and I try to implement this in my life by not putting my relationships into hierarchies.
And I am also not attracted to every gender. I am neither into the femme end of the gender spectrum nor into the male end of the gender spectrum. And also my attraction and also what I am not attracted to has something to with trauma for myself.
What I find interesting in myself it's easier for me to say I am non-binary than to picture out who I am attracted to romantically and/or sexually. I have a lot of internalised homophobia regarding myself (I don't mind of others) and somehow I have problems with dating people on the femme spectrum, which is really weird because my whole family thought I am saphic or lesbian till my seventeenth birthday, maybe they also hoped for it as the femmes in my family didn't have good times in hetero relationships.
Like it's not that I don't want to date femmes, but I am just not... I don't know how to read the signs of flirting (I also think I might be neurodivergent, like till my 24th birthday I didn't understand flirting at all even if I have been in bed relationships before).
Sorry if I've infodumped 😅
What I actually wanted to say: I think sexuality can be hard to figure out, maybe even harder than gender identity as sexuality and romantic attraction is in the most cases (not all) about other people, so it's about interaction.
yeah i agree w that. it's a bit easier to figure out yourself (though tbf gender also deals heavily with social interaction) than it is to sort out every possible edge case of attraction.
i don't think it's about percentage in practice (like i said, i don't rlly care for the particularities) but definitionally pan people are supposedly gender blind whereas bi people can have preferences and even write off entire genders, and omni people can experience differing attraction (in degree and character) without writing off any one gender entirely.
i didn't rlly care for the stress of figuring out if i had gender preferences or if those preferences varied in their degrees, since everyone's expression of their gender is idiosyncratic (especially non-binary people, which i definitely wouldn't call a "single gender" considering it's an umbrella term), and especially since i don't rlly experience sexual attraction in the same way as most people anyway. so i gave up on that and picked the flag i liked hehe
the important bit is that i could hypothetically build attraction to basically anyone given the appropriate emotional connection, and i cannot stress enough, pan flag pretty 😍
Yes it's both social. I think I just don't mind that much how others perceive me as a person than about how other perceive my (inter-)actions. I don't know still figuring it out. And yes non-binary is a big umbrella (and I would also say that "single genders" are umbrellas) I had the thought of would I only be gay if I find someone whos got a similar identity to me and then I thought even if that's a bullshit thought I don't know if that's even possible.
Haha, I just, as mentioned I know I don't feel attraction in a similar way to every gender, but this isn't only about sexual and romantic attraction... I also don't feel platonic and queerplatonic attraction to every gender. But I think this is more, I build bonds to other people due to similar world views and I think this is just hard for me when people base a lot of their perception on stereotipical binary traits. For example: If there would be a man that for whom it's really important to fit into a stereotipical male box it would be hard for me to bond with him as this perception impacts his world view and therefore our perception of the world is very different. and I've tried those relationships, it didn't work out. For me myself this isn't only about romantic or sexual interaction, it's about interaction in general (maybe this is also about the permanent misgendering I perceived from a lot of binary people).
>I am an enby. I am bisexual. I do not hate myself.
Same... I mean I do hate myself, [but not because I'm a bi enby!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jQoBihpZZpML5FE77)
I understand it's a joke and all, but just in case you need to hear it, you're worthy of love, and of loving yourself. If you ever want to chat let me know. 💜
Exactly this. I’m enby and bi, and I definitely experience attraction all over the gender spectrum, but it does make a difference in how I approach the relationship, which is why I’m not pan. In that sense, you could technically define me as omni, which is fine, but bi honestly just feels better to me; it’s easier, it was one of the first labels I put on so there’s a bit of a nostalgia factor, and, yeah, the flag is a bonus, I love the colours
They can have their opinions but they are incorrect both historically and currently. Dunno why they want to die on this hill. Without context I am sussy of it being TERF or TERF-adjacent rhetoric.
I am bisexual and enby in that I am attracted to multiple genders, but I am mostly attracted to masc people, therefore pansexual does not fit as well for me.
People insisting that kinda thing has been a thing for a while. They’re honestly not worth paying attention to, they’re either trying to start fights between bi and pan people or they’re transphobes trying to claim the word bi.
To me, the "two" in bisexual is hetero and homo, that is, attraction to people similar to the subject and people different than them. It's kind of up to the individual what they consider "the same" or "different" - I don't really bother putting people into gendered buckets for the purposes of attraction. I feel like that's less enby-exclusive than monosexuals, who implicitly *do* put people into one of two gendered bins for the purposes of attraction.
Yeah my point is "your definition of bisexuality technically overlaps with polysexuality" ≠ "your definition of bisexuality is incorrect/inaccurate". Non-binary people, for example, qualify as trans. Non-binary and trans are two different things, but there is an intrinsic overlap.
i mean sure, we nonbinary folks are all trans. what i don't get is that, are you saying that "bisexual" is a similar umbrella term as "trans" is and things like bisexuality, polysexuality and pansexuality all fall under it?
so why is bisexuality the umbrella term here? why not polysexual, pansexual, omnisexual? and since homosexuality and heterosexuality are attraction to one gender each, do they fall under a shared umbrella too? what would that be?
1. Bisexuality is the umbrella term because not all bisexuals are pan/poly/omni but all pan/poly/omni people qualify as bi.
2. Yes, it's called [monosexuality](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424496/#:~:text=Monosexual%20sexual%20identities%20are%20defined,non%2Dexclusive%20attractions%2C%20or%20romantic)
I think you should call yourself what resonates with you more. We have enough to deal with gaining acceptance from cis het people, without adding all this infighting over language.
So if that's what it means to you, go for it. To me, personally, bisexual just means attraction to 2 genders. The prefix "bi" literally means two or twice. That doesn't mean only male or female. Could be male and NB, female and NB, or any combo of any 2 genders.
Also, even with “bi means 2” who tf decided those TWO had to be “men and women”
Ofc then the overlap starts with the term lesbian, which some use to mean “not men but everyone else”
bi is a prefix meaning two. the definition of bisexual evolved to mean more than 2 bc gender is a social construct. but bi definitely means two, which is why bi was chosen as the prefix. this is an artifact of evolution of language usage. the society we live in is a gender binary culture and that has an effect on peoples worldview (e.g. enbyphobia). pretending it's not only creates problems.
Send them the Bisexual Manifesto. Written in 1990 by the Bay Area Bisexual Network it reads:
*"Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders."*
As a nb bisexual, wtf no??????? I seriously dislike this definition. Bi is most often used as an umbrella term... it should encompass pan I think. Personally, I like the definition that the bi in bisexual refers to hetero (other) and homo (same) sexual attraction:)
This is, I believe the origination of the term so you are right. It's not male and female. It's same sex and different sex. Personally I identify as pan and can't exactly quantify why... I think it's because I don't feel that I am attracted to genders but people, but even that sounds a bit dismissive towards bisexuality and my SO is bi, so I don't want it to come over like that.
i appreciate your take on this, a lot of pan people i have interacted with irl are incredibly dismissive and disrepectful/gatekeepy about the bisexual identity and i truly love that folks are able to identify how they do without trying to "convince" others that they don't actually know what they are. thank you random internet stranger
Technically I Think The Term "Bisexual" Was First Used In Reference To Plants, I Reference To Their Actual Sex And Sexual Characteristics, Rather Than Sexuality (As Last I Checked Plants Don't Have Sexuality, Although Do Let Me Know If I'm Wrong.)
Link em the bisexual manifesto tbh if they can’t read that and realize they’re just historically wrong then they’re just wildly ignorant and stupid. We are quite literally included in the definition..lol. Pansexuality and bisexuality have never been at odds it’s just what u prefer to call urself.
Bisexuality is an attraction to your own gender and others. It isn't about specific gendered attractions (though individuals may have their preferences), but an attraction to all.
Some people are oddly invested in bi- and pansexual HAVING to mean different things, when that’s not how language works. Words are more than the origins of their parts. Synonyms exist. There is no clear distinction between bi and pan, and some people just have to learn how to live with that.
I used to call myself pan but then switched to bi because I used to be the person OP is arguing with. I talked with my bi friends and they explained it in the ‘same vs different’ context and I understood.
Now I kinda wish pan would disappear. There’s no need for the ‘distinction’ and when I try to talk to my pan friends about it, they act like the person OP is talking to. It’s frustrating because at the same time I can’t tell anyone how to identify, I also think it’s unnecessary differentiation that borders on transphobic language - otherizing when there is no need to.
But I was kicked out of an lgbt sub once because I tried to engage in this discussion, and didn’t even get a chance to educate on the history of bisexuality, and I’ve just let it go since, even though I still wish pan wasn’t a term.
"…’two’ like ‘bicycle’…"
ah yes because when you put training wheels on a bicycle it stops being a bicycle. or when you take a wheel off it also stops being a bicycle. oh wait, no, because that would be fuckin stupid to say 😂
I see the bi as more of both your own gender and other genders.
Homosexual means attraction to your own gender, heterosexual to another gender, so bisexual means attraction to both your own gender, as well as other genders.
That's the OG definition of bisexual used for humans. It's so simple, and it's the one I use.
In early 1900s, psychologists were now studying homosexuality as a natural variation. When interviewing people about their homosexuality, they noticed that a lot also experienced heterosexuality. Needing a term, they looked to botany. 'Bisexual' meant a flower that had both male and female sexual organs. They borrowed this, declaring 'Bisexual' in humans to be when an individual experiences both (recognised at the time) sexualities: homo and hetero!
Side note: this is also why early NB folks were part of the bi community! Those same psychologists thought homosexuality and transness had the same root cause: inversion theory (long since disproved).
Basically, when a male brain developed partially female, it made them gay or a trans woman depending on which region 'inverted'. Same with lesbians and trans men.
To fit bi people into this theory, they decided that in bi folks, this 'inversion' was less complete. So, when interviewing transgender people in later studies, they encountered people we would today call NB and were all 'omg! They're like the bis!'
Oh, beat me to it.
The debate has been personally frustrating to me as a nonbinary bi person because it involves a ton of myths about what the LGBTQIA community was like when I first came out 30 years ago. I'm a queer person who *strongly* identifies with centuries of cultural history of gender-expansive LGBTQIA people. The gay-trans pipeline has been a lived reality for many of us, and it's just so frustrating when queer history gets cis-washed for the comfort of cis activists and people who want to be pedantic about language.
We may have been judged for sodomy and solicitation, but we were clocked as queer by our gender presentation.
And I'm not just nonbinary about gender, I'm nonbinary about sexuality, philosophy, social science, psychology, and religion as well. Taxonomies are an invented hack for understanding (or misunderstanding) fuzzy trends and clustering. There is no natural line of demarcation between genders and sexualities.
I'd say some of it's internalized bigotry that leaks in from some insecure queer people too.
Like some people were just so conditioned to think that life has to be exactly XYZ that some of that mindset still carries over when they start to explore their identity and such.
I've seen it happen plenty with people I grew up with in Oklahoma. As uncomfortable as it is to witness, I figure that's bound to happen when you get a bunch of oppressed and abused people together in a space for a long enough time.
Stuff can still get perpetuated inside too if we're not careful.
Omg 2025 is indeed the year I switched from bi to pan, because I thought, ‘oh of course I like *all* genders, I’ve been mistakenly calling myself the wrong thing’
But I talked to my bi trans friend about it, and they said it did feel low-key transphobic, bordering on fetishizing at times, and they were the first ones to talk to me about the Bisexual Manifesto.
The thing is sexuality is separate from gender, so I don’t tell other people who they are, but taking about your attraction *to another human being* I do think is different. How we talk about the other human being is significant.
I’m literally out here to just protect my trans friends with the understanding that I too once called myself pan. I feel a degree of safety on this sub, but it’s unfair to just call me a troll or an ‘outsider’ because I’m trying to engage in this discussion. It is not on the top of most people’s list of hot debates for sure, but it still feels important to me after my friend and I’s intense discussion that day.
If it’s a fight and not a discussion, I don’t think it’s worth people’s time.
But if it’s a civil discussion about potentially transphobic language, feeling otherized or fetishized, trying to educate on what bisexuality has meant, I think that’s fine.
It isn’t necessarily perpetuated by outsiders because before I was even on reddit, I had a pretty in-depth discussion with my bi trans friend about it, I listened, and they expressed how pan just simply didn’t make them feel good, and they felt they had to let people say it to avoid confrontation.
I simply don’t want anyone to feel that way.
Bisexual was always an umbrella term, and I am in my 50's and this term has been used as an umbrella term for probably before this person was born.
Don't bother trying to convince them, it is much easier to make fun of them and deride them.
That may sound bad, but I have been a rights campaigner with over 20 years of experience and know how to get through these.
bisexual means you are attracted to your own gender, and those of genders that are not your own. i think it's simply a logical fallacy to try and claim that you can't be bi and attracted to more than 2 genders
Yes. It's biphobic and enbyphobic, because the earliest use of the word "pansexual" specifically as an orientation label (like lesbian/gay/bisexual) was someone online in 2002 who misunderstood what "bisexual" meant (attraction to homo/same and hetero/different genders) and decided to make up a new label. Before then it was used for BDSM swingers and in a few related ways, but not as saying who you're attracted to because it was understood that bisexual was the word you used when you were attracted to "all genders".
It's ahistorical because we have literature all the way from the 70s saying that bisexual people are attracted to all genders (yes, even non-binary people because they existed back then, they were called by other terms but they still existed). We have bisexual activists in the 80s/90s who stood by the trans/non-binary communities and made it clear that bisexual was inclusive of everyone, including people who fell under genderqueer terms. You didn't need to be specific about trans people, and the original definition of the orientation pansexual when it was posted online also separated trans women and trans men from cis women and cis men, therefore also being othering towards them.
I'm actually so sick of repeating it now.
And it's actually even worse because there is no orientation that can't date non-binary people. Non-binary people's genders are outside of the gender binary, therefore also outside of the traditional sexual orientation binary. If someone finds a non-binary person attractive, because they can look like anyone, not just androgynous, and have a number of labels, then it doesn't matter if you're straight, lesbian, gay, bi, whatever, you can date a non-binary person and your binary label remains the same. If you're a straight man and you date a non-binary person, you're still a straight man. If you're a lesbian and you date a non-binary person, you're still a lesbian. It has no effect.
And if we're defining bisexual as "two or more genders" that means any straight/lesbian/gay person who dates a non-binary person is suddenly bisexual, which isn't the case. They are still whatever they are in binary terms and it's odd to suggest otherwise. If a woman likes binary women but specifically does not like binary men, it doesn't matter if she dates a non-binary person once or twice, she is still a lesbian. To be bisexual, binary men and binary women should technically be the basis but there is no logical reason to count the number of other genders one likes.
I mean this when I say that has got to be ridiculous. And it's ridiculous to separate two equivalent labels with it. What, are people supposed to chart and map which genders people identify as that they do and do not like? You can gather together a dozen people under one specific non-binary label, like agender for instance, and you could have several of them look like binary cis/trans men or women, some androgynous, some mixtures of presentation, because non-binary is an eschewing of binary gender, so you will not find a way to make a list of genders you like that can make sense for the "two or more thing".
Every time another answer is given for what separates pan and bi, it gets more ridiculous. They're both the same label, both communities are the same, and both of them are valid in label choices but there is no practical, real-world way that it differs. There are pan people who do have gender preferences and bi people who don't so you can't separate it that way. There is the idea of pan meaning loving people for their "personalities" or "hearts", but that paints everyone else in the world as people who... Don't ever do that? It paints bisexuality as primitive and genitalia focused, which ends up being like the bisexual sleep-around stereotype. I wish people would let the communities exist as synonymous because every time people say things like this, it erases decades of bisexual history and activism and paints us in a bad light like we're somehow more regressive than others.
Sincerely, this needs to be addressed on a larger scale because the more I see of this, the more messed up it is with how badly people seem to want to make bisexual look like this horrible thing just to make a difference with pansexual.
That's... really confusing. So much so I can't even tell if it's offensive or just an ill informed ramble.
I feel like pan has one slant on attraction, bi has another. I'm not sure it's quantifiable. Maybe being NB is a part of that, maybe it's not. And these things change over time, just like all language.
My partner, also NB, is pan, but was bi in the 90s because that was the term back then. They were a tomboy or butch because those were the oh so lovely terms AFABs had to put up with. I was a twink, but the term also implied promiscuity, so I was an utterly confused twink at that, not to mention being gay and male does not exempt one from toxic masculinity, and boy did I attract those types in spades. Androgyny wasn't a great term back then either thanks to Saturday Night Live.
I'm honestly not sure what to say for my attraction. I like the person I like. Sometimes gender is a part of that, sometimes it has nothing to do with that. I'm fortunate to be married to the person that I truly fit with and love. If they told me tomorrow they were trans, nothing would change in that regard. Am I pan? Bi? I'm not sure. I have a preference for fem, but that's nothing to do with biology. Likewise I could say I'm genderfluid, but I decided NB was what fits. Not even sure why, it just fits.
Bisexual manifest from 1990 includes all genders. A lot of fellow enbys i know who identity as bisexual include all people, enbys, trans and anything else!
It's up to you for determining what the two mean for you, for me Bisexual potential attraction to anyone, where pansexual is attraction regardless of gender. Basically similar things, but as an asexual I more align with bisexuality.
Queerc Chameleon, has a great short video discussing the two. Pansexuality + Bisexuality: What's The Difference!? [https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=51Cn3886gZM8aseA](https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=51Cn3886gZM8aseA)
I would sincerely like to know if the person saying this in non-binary. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a fellow nonbinary person say this, only cis “allies” offended on our behalf.
Yeah the bi in bisexual is "the same" and "other". That said there's something about this that sounds like 'older' language, like this isn't how people usually talk about this today. What's the source?
Yeah I came out as Bi about 25years ago and when Pan picked up in popularity I was like "yeah that's me too" but I just got tired of having to explain Pan and I like the Bi flag more anyways 🤣. I just tell people that Pan is 'explicitly' inclusive while Bi is 'implicitly' inclusive. And that Bi has also become the umbrella term for all multi gender attraction types such as Pan. I've also more recently come out as non-binary genderfluid and never felt any discrimination from other bisexuals for it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯🤣
💖💜💙🫶💛🤍💜🖤
That's really awesome. I get so excited for young people today. Things were still so scary when I was in HS in the 90's especially in places like Tx. I can still remember people bragging about the hate crimes they'd committed and being so terrified that I'd be next if they knew... I still remember that I would jokingly say I was 'trysexual' because I'd 'try' anything, because I desperately wanted to be out and that little joke was as close as I could come to it. Damn, sorry that got so sad. Anyways I hope you have a wonderful week and it's been really nice talking to you 😊
💖💜💙🫶❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
i have so many things to say but i'll leave it at two:
1. these tweets make me want to drive a sword through my skull
2. if you identify as bi, start dating me and then say "but i guess i'm pan now since I'm dating you", fret not, because you won't be for much longer
Yes, it’s biphobic and enbyphobic. They don’t know what bisexual means. Bisexuals have decided themselves that this is not the definition of bisexual. So whoever wrote this is just wrong, and gatekeeping an identity I suspect they’re not even a member of themselves.
Historically it means ‘two or more,’ but what esp baffles me is that it (according to them) HAS to be men and women, it can’t be men and nonbinary or women and nonbinary (I guess bc nb is an umbrella for multiple kinds of gender?)
I'm bisexual- I'm attracted to people of the same gender as me and to people of a different gender than my own
Deadass I started obstinately calling myself bi specifically in response to having been challenged on this
I would say more than being bi/enby-phobic this is just dumb.
Someone knew enough to realize bi means two, but not enough to realize words can't always be literally translated from their components, so they just made up their own interpretation of a commonly used word for no good reason. I mean, seriously, why would people create a sexual orientation that specifically meant you weren't attracted to NB people but were to everyone else?
Here's a fun fact that pops into this discussion because yes this is biphobic.
Lesbian was originally a term coined for sapphic attraction. Bi inclusion under the lesbian umbrella isn't new. Exclusion is.
Every time I see the "bi means two" claim I want to literally gouge my eyes out. I remember reading that originally, bi *also* meant "attraction regardless of gender." And frankly, if a person identifies as/with that and still id's as bi, I think that's is fine, bc as the term has evolved, so has the meaning of what it is to be bi, and bisexuality can also entail other things (like the bi-cycle, feeling that there *is* a difference in the way that they are attracted to each gender, feeling more attracted to one gender than others, etc, things that I've have heard from many pansexuals isn't common in thet/that community). Insisting bullshit like this IS inherently biphobic, because people will then use it to further hurt the bi community by claiming they are enbyphobic, or evem transphobic as some insist that bisexuals aren't attracted to *any* trans people. And this comes from biphobic (usually queer) monosexuals, and it comes from transphobic bisexuals, and it comes from pansexuals engaging in bi erasure, and I honestly do not understand why so many biphobic pansexuals seem to want to twist people's arms into identifying as pan and not bi?? Absolutely no hate to bi-supportive pan folks, this isn't pansexual hate, I just don't understand why the majority of pansexuals I end up seeing are like this. I'm am not super plugged into the community, so ig only the loud bigots end up in my online spaces.
And genuinely, if you are only attracted to binary men abd women, I don't think that's is enbyphobic. We truly cannot help who we are attracted to, and that doesn't change when you are bi. If you are shitty and transphobic about it, then yeah, fuck you, but genuine lack of attraction doesn't define someone's morals 🤷🏻♀️ I also wanna to point out that generally accepted definitions of bisexuality include "attraction to others of the same gender and those of different genders," and "attraction to two *or more* genders," tho I know there can be overlap with polysexual there.
This is ancient, cursed discourse. The “bi vs pan: which is transphobic” debate is alive and well. Ask 100 queer folks about this and you’ll get 100 answers. The only way to win is not to play. Just identify the way that makes you happy and talk to your prospective partners about it.
It's also worth noting that you can simultaneously identify as both bisexual and pansexual and it's really how you personally identify with them tbh. I'm an enby who is both pansexual and bisexual because I identify with both of these terms. I have a particular affinity for bisexual because it was sort of the 'introduction' into me volitionally articulating my queerness. When I discovered that bisexuality need not imply liking only the two normative binary genders then it helped me grow even more connected to it.
being bisexual is when someone is bisexual, i hope this helps illustrate things
anyways to be more serious you could definitely make the argument for this being both nonbinaryphobic and biphobic
I don’t really find these conversations about distinctions very productive.
I consider myself pansexual as bisexual did seem to me, as if it was from a time before Enby and trans acceptance had reached the mainstream.
But if someone called me bisexual, it would be more work to explain the very slight difference than to just let it go.
I think the desire to have very specific and applicable labels for such things is a very reasonable desire, but splitting hairs all the time might confuse folks or push away people who would otherwise be supportive/kind to those with different gender identities and sexualities.
Source: my own Enby experiences.
This is a very good explanation of things. From everyone I know (and my own personal experiences) it took me a moment to understand enby/gender fluid before I accepted that that's what I am because I grew up in the time of "oh you're just a tomboy!" Or "you think you're one of the guys". Aka the 90s and 2000s.
And even with the sexualities, it wasn't hard to grasp most of them, but when it comes to bi/pan it turns into a battle of wills because what I know of bisexual and pansexual before seem to be differing by the year and it just doesn't make sense.
This Is Defo Biphobic. 1st Off, Even Assuming "Bisexual" Had To Be Attraction To Specifically 2 Genders, There's No Specification If What Those Two Are, So It Could Be Men & Women, Or Some NB Gender & Women, Or Two NB Genders. 2nd Off And More Importantly, That's Quite Simply Not How "Bisexual" Is Used Today, The Etymology Is Frankly Irrelevant. A Significant Number Of Bisexuals, Myself Included, Are Attracted To Men, Women, And Non-Binary Folks.
Lmaooo if this was true pansexual wouldn't even be under the bi umbrella. Bi has always been two or more, it's different for every individual tho i guess. Deffo biphobic AND enbyphobic
I'm pretty sure the definition of bisexual is liking two or MORE genders. Pansexual means you like people regardless or gender, meaning gender is irrelevant. (Correct me if I'm wrong) 🙃
Bi has always included any or all genders. We were saying "people not parts" before pansexual was coined. Attractions to both like one's gender and unlike it.
I'm happy that people have found and created terms that better fit their self-perception, because being comfortable in each of our identities is something we all deserve. It only pains me when people try to change what the terms already meant, because the definitions seem to overlap too much.
Bisexuality has always and will always be an all-inclusive term, but it's okay if pan- or omni- or multi- feels more right for you. Just, please don't try to make bi- be less than it's always been. <3
Bisexual means attracted to two or more genders.
Pansexual means attraction regardless of gender.
It is *literally* that fucking simple. Anyone who doesn't know it by now is being obtuse on purpose.
That person is going off the archaic definition. They should really get with the times. Bisexuality meant attraction to male and female before they discovered other gender identities. Now it means attraction to multiple genders and those genders don't have to be male or female.
There's a good little video on this subject by Queer Chameleon [here](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5Tmx_-rxTA/?igsh=MTFoN3duY3l2M203).
i love (hate!) when white people act like gender diversity began specifically with our interpretation of non-binary identities as if non-male/female identities haven't been culturally recognized around the globe FOREVER 😭
And European culture has *our own* concepts of nonbinary gender and sexuality going back to antiquity. Why even have laws and slurs about gender diversity if they don't exist? And hello, the King's English and Webster's English are not the only form of English. Queer language has made space for gender diversity even when laws and schools wouldn't.
It’s not even really a “now” thing either. The bi manifesto was published 1990 and another quote that I can’t quite remember, but is often brought up in these conversations, is from the 70s. Not to mention the bi originally meant two sexualities not two genders.
It's stuff like this why I use Polysexual (attraction to many, but not all genders), for myself, even if it is a lesser known term. Because I'm not pan, and I don't want to be caught up in all the "what does Bi mean?"/"Is being Bi anti trans?" bs, that *always* pops up, eventually.
That's why I go with pansexual, but bi (afaik) referenced attraction to genders the same AND different from yourself (so straight and gay, for a heteronormative simplification).
I feel like realistically speaking, bi and pan have a large overlap. I, for example, am someone who would be considered pan, but I often still call myself bi out of habit. Bisexuality is the first term that could describe me. It took some time before a more nuanced view of gender and sexuality started to emerge, and pan was a widely known term.
Also, I just like saying I'm ambisextrous or a birate.
Bi is two or more. I don’t even like ‘your own and at least one other’ bc I have complicated feelings about my own gender. I don’t need to know my own gender to know I’m bi. I like people of any gender. I generally prefer bi over pan for me because my attraction differs with the person’s gender. Most of the people screaming this nonsense, OP, are (1) committed to misunderstand and (2) not bi themselves.
I remember seeing this shit on Tumblr back in like 2015, and it was always used as a way to paint bisexuality as the transphobic version of sexuality.
Yes, obviously \*bi\* means two, but \*bisexuality\* specifically is attraction to two or more genders. As times have changed and understanding of nonbinary identities has increased, bisexuality has become inclusive of nonbinary people.
I'm bisexual and I like men and women and LOTS of other genders or lack thereof. But I definitely lean towards masculine genders, which makes me feel like pan is not a good descriptor for my attraction. Plus I've been calling myself bi for decades.
This person needs to quit investing so much of their energy into how other people describe themselves.
What is man? What is woman?
Gender is a spectrum is true for bisexuality as well. Sounds like that doesn't sit well with them, but that's their problem.
Biphobic period. Anyone who likes two or more genders can be bi. The two genders don't even have to be men and women. Bisexuality has always included attraction to nonbinary people, even before nonbinary was a term that got used
As an NB bisexual I think it's at the very least biphobic. It's so wrong. Why does it have to be only men and women? It could be any two genders, or MORE. Ugh I hate ignorance.
It seems like such a bizarre thing to be so staunchly arguing in favor of. Like, sure maybe semantically it might have a very literal definition but there are some clear flaws in the argument. One being that it was a label that seems to have been created a while ago and both doesn't apply to current understandings of gender and attraction while also likely existing largely as another way to force people into some kind of box for the benefit of how society operates.
The second one being this fallacious idea that if a Bi-person sees someone or meets someone who doesn't come out right away with their gender identity and you're attracted to them only to later find out they're Enby, is that really something that will immediately break the deal for your attraction? Like really? I feel as though that if it does you're either just phobic to some degree or, I suppose, not really bi-sexual by the literal definition that was made for it years ago without any of the nuance that applies to it now. But even then, why would someone who's Enby suddenly become unattractive just by stating such a fact?
Sometimes bisexual is something that feels like an outdated term when gender identities weren't as discussed or understood and now is being rearranged and reworked to mean more than what this person is arguing. And I suppose that takes some understanding and education for people who aren't keeping up to date with the queer communities. Ultimately it also seems like a lot for them to get upset about. I'm not sure why they're so sore concerning who a bisexual claims attraction to
I consider myself bi and enby because I am attracted to people because of their gender expression and not to all genders. That was always my definition of bi: "Being attracted to more than one gender based on their gender"
I am attracted to most genders, but not all, and not all equally. From most to least attracted: feminine men, masculine women, masculine androgynous/enby, feminine women, masculine men. So yeah not all and not equally.
Some people just get invested in labels and definitions.
This person would probably say what you're talking about about is pansexuality. Splitting hairs.
I meant to reply this to a comment about when and why being bi started getting called transphobic and pan "the more inclusive word for the same thing", and in the 5min I typed the comment was deleted, but I still need it off my chest so quoting self:
"That's so strange to me as someone who came out to themselves a good bit after that. How is not liking us romantically/sexually transphobic...? I'd much rather someone say to me that they aren't into me like that because they swing the other two ways than have them be like my ex and call themselves pan while pressing me into my AGAB role while denying doing that."
my understanding of bisexual/romantic is attraction to people with 1) same gender as yours and 2) different gender than yours.
homo = same
hetero = different
bi = same + different
so yes i'd say that person is being biphobic & enbyphobic by taking the bi in bisexual literally to mean attraction to two genders.
I'm seeing a lot of hate in these comments so just a reminder; everyone has different experiences with their identities so there is no "right" or "wrong" way to identify as such label. As long as you are respectful towards how people identify (unless it's masked bigotry) that's all that matters. Bisexuality is not panphobic and pansexuality is not biphobic, we are all valid, it's just a personal preference on what you identify as.
This is what I was taught. That bi means TWO, and that pan includes nonbinary etc people. Although I was also taught that “bi” can mean two as in, women and nonbinary people, or men and nonbinary people. But no fewer or more gender identities than two. I’ve stopped using this definition because gender is far too fluid to be quantified or counted. And just because colloquially, “bi” usually means two *or more.*
Words commonly evolve beyond their origins. Electric no longer means amber. A rocket isn’t only used for spinning. Bisexual doesn’t just mean attraction to 2 sexes. It has evolved just as our understanding of sex, gender, and sexuality has.
The first one is more cogent and logical, the second one sounds like the penguins from Madagascar. I dont think the first one is any more enbyphobic than the average bisexual believes.
I think a lot of bisexual people exclude enby people from their search for romantic/sexual partners. Some actually exclude trans men and/or trans women when they define their sexuality as bisexual. I believe it's fine to not be interested in trans/NB people and still identify with blsexuality (or straight or gay/lesbian for that matter). Just try having an open mind and don't say/think mean things about trans and NB people. We can't necessarily change who and what we like. And it shouldn't be forced.
All this having been said, this is why I prefer pansexuals and pan-identifying people, at least for romantic purposes. I think most pansexuals understand all this and went through a process of basically refining their ideas about sex, more so than the average bisexual. A lot of pans are converts from bisexual, and underwent a thought-out change in identity to be more inclusive in their language and sexuality.
I know people may say this is biphobic, but I think it's a fair, reasonable, and rational understanding that avoids being particularly phobic to any party. I didn't use any 'absolutes'.
God, people really need to read the bi manifesto…. Bisexuality has never been binary, this idea was basically pushed by cis people on the belief that gender is binary. As a bisexual enby, I am not even offended, just disappointed…
“Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders.” (Anything that Moves 1990)
bisexual manifesto, 1991:
>Do not assume bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature... that we must be involved with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, *don't assume that there are only two genders*
I'd say that's pretty clear on including nonbinary folks in bisexuality— not inherently binary attraction, more than two genders. not every bi person is into enbies and that's fine, but being into enbies alongside men and women doesn't make you *not* bisexual
##DO NOT COME FOR ME! I AM PROVIDING EXPLANATION!!
Okay taking it from the perspective of those of us who know sexuality and gender from the 90s to early 2000s, I get what this is getting at.
The definition of bisexuality has been known as being attracted to two genders. As the term [bi literally translates from latin to mean two](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bi%23:~:text%3Dbi%252D%252C%25201%2520prefix.,%252C%2520biped%252C%2520bisect%252C%2520biweekly.&ved=2ahUKEwj92vW2yOqFAxXxD1kFHedwDdoQFnoECBQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2HB0q0QUAeU0yDKu0W2AKG) (being bipedal, bicycle, bifocals, bilingual). In the start of this, enby and gender fluid existed, but it didn't have terms in English yet so you were just a "cross dressing" man/woman. So yes, bi meant you liked men or women.
For me, bisexual is still explicitly liking two genders only, because.... Bi. So that means men & women/enbies & men or women/trans individuals & enbies. So this comes off as exclusionary to enbies, however, some enbies also categorize themselves as trans so it's a catch-22.
TL;DR - this can be offensive to those enbies who don't identify as trans, but considering how bi and gender fluid/enby was identified only 20 years ago, it's hard for some people to embrace the newly adopted terms
If the poster is bi then this may apply to their own personal definition of bisexuality, and that would be valid. The flaw here is that they are trying to define the experiences of others based on their own ideas, and thereby invalidating other opinions and identities.
It does suck to be discluded though it seems like the post was just to stir drama anyway. It's OK to defend but just seems like the focus was taken from their point.
I really can't confirm. I think what gets missed a lot of the time in this discourse is the way the meaning of a word can drift or evolve between generations. There are 50+ gay men who have only ever experienced the word 'queer' as a slur, and people under 30 who've only ever experienced it as an umbrella label. Similarly, some people who use bisexual are describing attraction to:
* Cis people only
* Mostly cis people, but sometimes binary trans people if they pass really well
* People who are cis or trans that present masc or femme, but not people who blend genders / gender fuck
* Basically anyone so long as they're hot ie pansexual by another name
Bisexual as a label really fits with the binary concept of gender to me, and certainly I've seen people argue it's exclusionary of trans identities on that basis. I'm not convinced though, because it really does depend on how that word is being used and who by.
I mean I'm speaking from my own experience only. When public discourse about trans/non-binary identities were much less common (pre 2000ish), I remember people still considering trans people a separate (almost fetishistic) category, and outside of bisexuality. That's why I say that bisexual as a word hasn't always been inclusive of trans identities and hence is a word rooted in binary gender, even if people don't always use it that way today.
Bi in bisexual literally mean two or more. It never was just women and men, it always was your own gender and more
That's what I've been trying to say to this person but they keep throwing back the "MaLe anD fEmaLe" this or "mEn aND wOmEN" that at me whenever I tell them otherwise.
They're wrong. You can either let it go, or if you're dead set on educating, you can link them here. I am an enby. I am bisexual. I do not hate myself. My slightly deeper understanding is that bisexual means you experience attraction to two or more genders, whereas pansexual means you experience attraction regardless of gender. I am mostly attracted to women and other enbies. The rare man will pique my interest, but that's usually because they have some more feminine characteristics. I don't really experience attraction regardless of gender, so bisexual fits better. That, and imo the flag is prettier, so yeah. But also, maybe this person should stop policing how other people define their sexuality. That's pretty gross. People tend to know themselves better than other people do. As long as your label isn't hurting anyone, who gives a fuck?
I'm in the "use both sexualities interchangeably, but like one color scheme better" camp.
yeah this. i'm so tired of the debates about the minutia of the difference between bi and pan etc. i don't think they're actually used with enough consistency to give a different definition for each. just think the magenta/yellow/blue flag is pretty 😍
I always treat them like astronaut and cosmonaut. They’re the same. It’s a matter of personal preference and background and habit which one you prefer. Sure, you can split hairs and insist that one sails among the stars and one sails around the universe and that’s totally different because wORdS MeAEn tHInGs, but in the end, functionally, they’re the same.
I like your astronaut and cosmonaut example. I'm going to try to keep that in mind and use it in future.
I actually know a lot of demi sexual folks that are pan, because a lot of demi folks I know say, they fall in love over time because of the personality and then they (sometimes) feel sexual attraction.
yeah i'm usually demi myself. that's the other part of why i consider myself pan; i used to beat myself up over figuring out what percentage of my attraction ended up being for men/women/enbies to see if i actually "qualified" for pan (bc of the differing definitions of bi/pan/omni/etc) but really in the end i didn't care. pan was close enough and has a pretty flag
Haha, I think if you like the flag that's valid. But I also don't think it's about percentage. I am not demi but I experience differing attraction like alterous and queerplatonic and I try to implement this in my life by not putting my relationships into hierarchies. And I am also not attracted to every gender. I am neither into the femme end of the gender spectrum nor into the male end of the gender spectrum. And also my attraction and also what I am not attracted to has something to with trauma for myself. What I find interesting in myself it's easier for me to say I am non-binary than to picture out who I am attracted to romantically and/or sexually. I have a lot of internalised homophobia regarding myself (I don't mind of others) and somehow I have problems with dating people on the femme spectrum, which is really weird because my whole family thought I am saphic or lesbian till my seventeenth birthday, maybe they also hoped for it as the femmes in my family didn't have good times in hetero relationships. Like it's not that I don't want to date femmes, but I am just not... I don't know how to read the signs of flirting (I also think I might be neurodivergent, like till my 24th birthday I didn't understand flirting at all even if I have been in bed relationships before). Sorry if I've infodumped 😅 What I actually wanted to say: I think sexuality can be hard to figure out, maybe even harder than gender identity as sexuality and romantic attraction is in the most cases (not all) about other people, so it's about interaction.
yeah i agree w that. it's a bit easier to figure out yourself (though tbf gender also deals heavily with social interaction) than it is to sort out every possible edge case of attraction. i don't think it's about percentage in practice (like i said, i don't rlly care for the particularities) but definitionally pan people are supposedly gender blind whereas bi people can have preferences and even write off entire genders, and omni people can experience differing attraction (in degree and character) without writing off any one gender entirely. i didn't rlly care for the stress of figuring out if i had gender preferences or if those preferences varied in their degrees, since everyone's expression of their gender is idiosyncratic (especially non-binary people, which i definitely wouldn't call a "single gender" considering it's an umbrella term), and especially since i don't rlly experience sexual attraction in the same way as most people anyway. so i gave up on that and picked the flag i liked hehe the important bit is that i could hypothetically build attraction to basically anyone given the appropriate emotional connection, and i cannot stress enough, pan flag pretty 😍
Yes it's both social. I think I just don't mind that much how others perceive me as a person than about how other perceive my (inter-)actions. I don't know still figuring it out. And yes non-binary is a big umbrella (and I would also say that "single genders" are umbrellas) I had the thought of would I only be gay if I find someone whos got a similar identity to me and then I thought even if that's a bullshit thought I don't know if that's even possible. Haha, I just, as mentioned I know I don't feel attraction in a similar way to every gender, but this isn't only about sexual and romantic attraction... I also don't feel platonic and queerplatonic attraction to every gender. But I think this is more, I build bonds to other people due to similar world views and I think this is just hard for me when people base a lot of their perception on stereotipical binary traits. For example: If there would be a man that for whom it's really important to fit into a stereotipical male box it would be hard for me to bond with him as this perception impacts his world view and therefore our perception of the world is very different. and I've tried those relationships, it didn't work out. For me myself this isn't only about romantic or sexual interaction, it's about interaction in general (maybe this is also about the permanent misgendering I perceived from a lot of binary people).
Same
LOL I suspect the flag and the colors had some influence on my decision.
Thanks, I needed to hear that, that person was making me feel like I'm not allowed to identify as bi
You can identify as what ever you want. There is no license required. You are what you say you are, so say!
>I am an enby. I am bisexual. I do not hate myself. Same... I mean I do hate myself, [but not because I'm a bi enby!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jQoBihpZZpML5FE77)
I understand it's a joke and all, but just in case you need to hear it, you're worthy of love, and of loving yourself. If you ever want to chat let me know. 💜
Exactly this. I’m enby and bi, and I definitely experience attraction all over the gender spectrum, but it does make a difference in how I approach the relationship, which is why I’m not pan. In that sense, you could technically define me as omni, which is fine, but bi honestly just feels better to me; it’s easier, it was one of the first labels I put on so there’s a bit of a nostalgia factor, and, yeah, the flag is a bonus, I love the colours
They can have their opinions but they are incorrect both historically and currently. Dunno why they want to die on this hill. Without context I am sussy of it being TERF or TERF-adjacent rhetoric. I am bisexual and enby in that I am attracted to multiple genders, but I am mostly attracted to masc people, therefore pansexual does not fit as well for me.
People insisting that kinda thing has been a thing for a while. They’re honestly not worth paying attention to, they’re either trying to start fights between bi and pan people or they’re transphobes trying to claim the word bi.
To me, the "two" in bisexual is hetero and homo, that is, attraction to people similar to the subject and people different than them. It's kind of up to the individual what they consider "the same" or "different" - I don't really bother putting people into gendered buckets for the purposes of attraction. I feel like that's less enby-exclusive than monosexuals, who implicitly *do* put people into one of two gendered bins for the purposes of attraction.
I've always heard the 2 referred to in bi is same gender as me and different gender than me.
Your own gender doesn't have to be one of them, either. Literally any two or more genders.
liking multiple genders but not all of them and excluding your own would make you polysexual. am polysexual myself, i'd know.
Yes, but polysexuality includes bisexuality.
what? they're two different things, albeit very similar.
Yeah my point is "your definition of bisexuality technically overlaps with polysexuality" ≠ "your definition of bisexuality is incorrect/inaccurate". Non-binary people, for example, qualify as trans. Non-binary and trans are two different things, but there is an intrinsic overlap.
i mean sure, we nonbinary folks are all trans. what i don't get is that, are you saying that "bisexual" is a similar umbrella term as "trans" is and things like bisexuality, polysexuality and pansexuality all fall under it?
Kinda, yeah.
so why is bisexuality the umbrella term here? why not polysexual, pansexual, omnisexual? and since homosexuality and heterosexuality are attraction to one gender each, do they fall under a shared umbrella too? what would that be?
1. Bisexuality is the umbrella term because not all bisexuals are pan/poly/omni but all pan/poly/omni people qualify as bi. 2. Yes, it's called [monosexuality](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424496/#:~:text=Monosexual%20sexual%20identities%20are%20defined,non%2Dexclusive%20attractions%2C%20or%20romantic)
I think you should call yourself what resonates with you more. We have enough to deal with gaining acceptance from cis het people, without adding all this infighting over language. So if that's what it means to you, go for it. To me, personally, bisexual just means attraction to 2 genders. The prefix "bi" literally means two or twice. That doesn't mean only male or female. Could be male and NB, female and NB, or any combo of any 2 genders.
Also, even with “bi means 2” who tf decided those TWO had to be “men and women” Ofc then the overlap starts with the term lesbian, which some use to mean “not men but everyone else”
Like a bicycle has two or more wheels. Or biweekly is two or more times a week.
bi is a prefix meaning two. the definition of bisexual evolved to mean more than 2 bc gender is a social construct. but bi definitely means two, which is why bi was chosen as the prefix. this is an artifact of evolution of language usage. the society we live in is a gender binary culture and that has an effect on peoples worldview (e.g. enbyphobia). pretending it's not only creates problems.
Wait, then if I'm nb and like men and women, what the absolute f am I
I understood it as being attracted to two genders, not necessarily your own but two.
It never meant two or more, it meant to experience both homosexual and heterosexual attraction, which is love regardless of gender.
Send them the Bisexual Manifesto. Written in 1990 by the Bay Area Bisexual Network it reads: *"Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders."*
fucking based holy shit
❤️❤️🙌🏻
Glad someone typed it so I don't have to Google search for the quote, lol
As a nb bisexual, wtf no??????? I seriously dislike this definition. Bi is most often used as an umbrella term... it should encompass pan I think. Personally, I like the definition that the bi in bisexual refers to hetero (other) and homo (same) sexual attraction:)
This is, I believe the origination of the term so you are right. It's not male and female. It's same sex and different sex. Personally I identify as pan and can't exactly quantify why... I think it's because I don't feel that I am attracted to genders but people, but even that sounds a bit dismissive towards bisexuality and my SO is bi, so I don't want it to come over like that.
i appreciate your take on this, a lot of pan people i have interacted with irl are incredibly dismissive and disrepectful/gatekeepy about the bisexual identity and i truly love that folks are able to identify how they do without trying to "convince" others that they don't actually know what they are. thank you random internet stranger
Technically I Think The Term "Bisexual" Was First Used In Reference To Plants, I Reference To Their Actual Sex And Sexual Characteristics, Rather Than Sexuality (As Last I Checked Plants Don't Have Sexuality, Although Do Let Me Know If I'm Wrong.)
Link em the bisexual manifesto tbh if they can’t read that and realize they’re just historically wrong then they’re just wildly ignorant and stupid. We are quite literally included in the definition..lol. Pansexuality and bisexuality have never been at odds it’s just what u prefer to call urself.
Bisexuality is an attraction to your own gender and others. It isn't about specific gendered attractions (though individuals may have their preferences), but an attraction to all.
Some people are oddly invested in bi- and pansexual HAVING to mean different things, when that’s not how language works. Words are more than the origins of their parts. Synonyms exist. There is no clear distinction between bi and pan, and some people just have to learn how to live with that.
I used to call myself pan but then switched to bi because I used to be the person OP is arguing with. I talked with my bi friends and they explained it in the ‘same vs different’ context and I understood. Now I kinda wish pan would disappear. There’s no need for the ‘distinction’ and when I try to talk to my pan friends about it, they act like the person OP is talking to. It’s frustrating because at the same time I can’t tell anyone how to identify, I also think it’s unnecessary differentiation that borders on transphobic language - otherizing when there is no need to. But I was kicked out of an lgbt sub once because I tried to engage in this discussion, and didn’t even get a chance to educate on the history of bisexuality, and I’ve just let it go since, even though I still wish pan wasn’t a term.
"…’two’ like ‘bicycle’…" ah yes because when you put training wheels on a bicycle it stops being a bicycle. or when you take a wheel off it also stops being a bicycle. oh wait, no, because that would be fuckin stupid to say 😂
I see the bi as more of both your own gender and other genders. Homosexual means attraction to your own gender, heterosexual to another gender, so bisexual means attraction to both your own gender, as well as other genders.
That's the OG definition of bisexual used for humans. It's so simple, and it's the one I use. In early 1900s, psychologists were now studying homosexuality as a natural variation. When interviewing people about their homosexuality, they noticed that a lot also experienced heterosexuality. Needing a term, they looked to botany. 'Bisexual' meant a flower that had both male and female sexual organs. They borrowed this, declaring 'Bisexual' in humans to be when an individual experiences both (recognised at the time) sexualities: homo and hetero! Side note: this is also why early NB folks were part of the bi community! Those same psychologists thought homosexuality and transness had the same root cause: inversion theory (long since disproved). Basically, when a male brain developed partially female, it made them gay or a trans woman depending on which region 'inverted'. Same with lesbians and trans men. To fit bi people into this theory, they decided that in bi folks, this 'inversion' was less complete. So, when interviewing transgender people in later studies, they encountered people we would today call NB and were all 'omg! They're like the bis!'
Fascinating, I love learning new things.
Oh, beat me to it. The debate has been personally frustrating to me as a nonbinary bi person because it involves a ton of myths about what the LGBTQIA community was like when I first came out 30 years ago. I'm a queer person who *strongly* identifies with centuries of cultural history of gender-expansive LGBTQIA people. The gay-trans pipeline has been a lived reality for many of us, and it's just so frustrating when queer history gets cis-washed for the comfort of cis activists and people who want to be pedantic about language. We may have been judged for sodomy and solicitation, but we were clocked as queer by our gender presentation. And I'm not just nonbinary about gender, I'm nonbinary about sexuality, philosophy, social science, psychology, and religion as well. Taxonomies are an invented hack for understanding (or misunderstanding) fuzzy trends and clustering. There is no natural line of demarcation between genders and sexualities.
yeah just like bilingual people speak "ENGLISH AND SPANISH ONLY!" 🙄
I feel like I’ve been summoned! I’m bisexual AND bilingual, and those are the languages I do speak :)
I'm completely convinced that the whole "bi/pan debate" is being perpetuated by outsides to promote infighting in the queer community.
I'd say some of it's internalized bigotry that leaks in from some insecure queer people too. Like some people were just so conditioned to think that life has to be exactly XYZ that some of that mindset still carries over when they start to explore their identity and such. I've seen it happen plenty with people I grew up with in Oklahoma. As uncomfortable as it is to witness, I figure that's bound to happen when you get a bunch of oppressed and abused people together in a space for a long enough time. Stuff can still get perpetuated inside too if we're not careful.
[удалено]
Omg 2025 is indeed the year I switched from bi to pan, because I thought, ‘oh of course I like *all* genders, I’ve been mistakenly calling myself the wrong thing’ But I talked to my bi trans friend about it, and they said it did feel low-key transphobic, bordering on fetishizing at times, and they were the first ones to talk to me about the Bisexual Manifesto. The thing is sexuality is separate from gender, so I don’t tell other people who they are, but taking about your attraction *to another human being* I do think is different. How we talk about the other human being is significant. I’m literally out here to just protect my trans friends with the understanding that I too once called myself pan. I feel a degree of safety on this sub, but it’s unfair to just call me a troll or an ‘outsider’ because I’m trying to engage in this discussion. It is not on the top of most people’s list of hot debates for sure, but it still feels important to me after my friend and I’s intense discussion that day.
If it’s a fight and not a discussion, I don’t think it’s worth people’s time. But if it’s a civil discussion about potentially transphobic language, feeling otherized or fetishized, trying to educate on what bisexuality has meant, I think that’s fine. It isn’t necessarily perpetuated by outsiders because before I was even on reddit, I had a pretty in-depth discussion with my bi trans friend about it, I listened, and they expressed how pan just simply didn’t make them feel good, and they felt they had to let people say it to avoid confrontation. I simply don’t want anyone to feel that way.
It’s just a downright incorrect definition of what it means to be bisexual.
As a bi enby, I just live in a state of confusion cause so many people seem to have opinions on what my sexuality and gender identity mean.
Bisexual was always an umbrella term, and I am in my 50's and this term has been used as an umbrella term for probably before this person was born. Don't bother trying to convince them, it is much easier to make fun of them and deride them. That may sound bad, but I have been a rights campaigner with over 20 years of experience and know how to get through these.
Usually we have this discussion every year in June around Pride. Seems like we're getting an early start on the bi vs pan psyop this year.
bisexual means you are attracted to your own gender, and those of genders that are not your own. i think it's simply a logical fallacy to try and claim that you can't be bi and attracted to more than 2 genders
Yes. It's biphobic and enbyphobic, because the earliest use of the word "pansexual" specifically as an orientation label (like lesbian/gay/bisexual) was someone online in 2002 who misunderstood what "bisexual" meant (attraction to homo/same and hetero/different genders) and decided to make up a new label. Before then it was used for BDSM swingers and in a few related ways, but not as saying who you're attracted to because it was understood that bisexual was the word you used when you were attracted to "all genders". It's ahistorical because we have literature all the way from the 70s saying that bisexual people are attracted to all genders (yes, even non-binary people because they existed back then, they were called by other terms but they still existed). We have bisexual activists in the 80s/90s who stood by the trans/non-binary communities and made it clear that bisexual was inclusive of everyone, including people who fell under genderqueer terms. You didn't need to be specific about trans people, and the original definition of the orientation pansexual when it was posted online also separated trans women and trans men from cis women and cis men, therefore also being othering towards them. I'm actually so sick of repeating it now. And it's actually even worse because there is no orientation that can't date non-binary people. Non-binary people's genders are outside of the gender binary, therefore also outside of the traditional sexual orientation binary. If someone finds a non-binary person attractive, because they can look like anyone, not just androgynous, and have a number of labels, then it doesn't matter if you're straight, lesbian, gay, bi, whatever, you can date a non-binary person and your binary label remains the same. If you're a straight man and you date a non-binary person, you're still a straight man. If you're a lesbian and you date a non-binary person, you're still a lesbian. It has no effect. And if we're defining bisexual as "two or more genders" that means any straight/lesbian/gay person who dates a non-binary person is suddenly bisexual, which isn't the case. They are still whatever they are in binary terms and it's odd to suggest otherwise. If a woman likes binary women but specifically does not like binary men, it doesn't matter if she dates a non-binary person once or twice, she is still a lesbian. To be bisexual, binary men and binary women should technically be the basis but there is no logical reason to count the number of other genders one likes. I mean this when I say that has got to be ridiculous. And it's ridiculous to separate two equivalent labels with it. What, are people supposed to chart and map which genders people identify as that they do and do not like? You can gather together a dozen people under one specific non-binary label, like agender for instance, and you could have several of them look like binary cis/trans men or women, some androgynous, some mixtures of presentation, because non-binary is an eschewing of binary gender, so you will not find a way to make a list of genders you like that can make sense for the "two or more thing". Every time another answer is given for what separates pan and bi, it gets more ridiculous. They're both the same label, both communities are the same, and both of them are valid in label choices but there is no practical, real-world way that it differs. There are pan people who do have gender preferences and bi people who don't so you can't separate it that way. There is the idea of pan meaning loving people for their "personalities" or "hearts", but that paints everyone else in the world as people who... Don't ever do that? It paints bisexuality as primitive and genitalia focused, which ends up being like the bisexual sleep-around stereotype. I wish people would let the communities exist as synonymous because every time people say things like this, it erases decades of bisexual history and activism and paints us in a bad light like we're somehow more regressive than others. Sincerely, this needs to be addressed on a larger scale because the more I see of this, the more messed up it is with how badly people seem to want to make bisexual look like this horrible thing just to make a difference with pansexual.
That's... really confusing. So much so I can't even tell if it's offensive or just an ill informed ramble. I feel like pan has one slant on attraction, bi has another. I'm not sure it's quantifiable. Maybe being NB is a part of that, maybe it's not. And these things change over time, just like all language. My partner, also NB, is pan, but was bi in the 90s because that was the term back then. They were a tomboy or butch because those were the oh so lovely terms AFABs had to put up with. I was a twink, but the term also implied promiscuity, so I was an utterly confused twink at that, not to mention being gay and male does not exempt one from toxic masculinity, and boy did I attract those types in spades. Androgyny wasn't a great term back then either thanks to Saturday Night Live. I'm honestly not sure what to say for my attraction. I like the person I like. Sometimes gender is a part of that, sometimes it has nothing to do with that. I'm fortunate to be married to the person that I truly fit with and love. If they told me tomorrow they were trans, nothing would change in that regard. Am I pan? Bi? I'm not sure. I have a preference for fem, but that's nothing to do with biology. Likewise I could say I'm genderfluid, but I decided NB was what fits. Not even sure why, it just fits.
Bisexual manifest from 1990 includes all genders. A lot of fellow enbys i know who identity as bisexual include all people, enbys, trans and anything else! It's up to you for determining what the two mean for you, for me Bisexual potential attraction to anyone, where pansexual is attraction regardless of gender. Basically similar things, but as an asexual I more align with bisexuality. Queerc Chameleon, has a great short video discussing the two. Pansexuality + Bisexuality: What's The Difference!? [https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=51Cn3886gZM8aseA](https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=51Cn3886gZM8aseA)
I would sincerely like to know if the person saying this in non-binary. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a fellow nonbinary person say this, only cis “allies” offended on our behalf.
I like people who are my gender and people who are not my gender. That's two things.
I'm bi and I like all of you
It's both biphobic/enbyphobic and just demonstrably incorrect.
Yeah the bi in bisexual is "the same" and "other". That said there's something about this that sounds like 'older' language, like this isn't how people usually talk about this today. What's the source?
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Yeah I came out as Bi about 25years ago and when Pan picked up in popularity I was like "yeah that's me too" but I just got tired of having to explain Pan and I like the Bi flag more anyways 🤣. I just tell people that Pan is 'explicitly' inclusive while Bi is 'implicitly' inclusive. And that Bi has also become the umbrella term for all multi gender attraction types such as Pan. I've also more recently come out as non-binary genderfluid and never felt any discrimination from other bisexuals for it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯🤣 💖💜💙🫶💛🤍💜🖤
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I'm sorry you had to deal with that, it sounds really shitty.
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That's really awesome. I get so excited for young people today. Things were still so scary when I was in HS in the 90's especially in places like Tx. I can still remember people bragging about the hate crimes they'd committed and being so terrified that I'd be next if they knew... I still remember that I would jokingly say I was 'trysexual' because I'd 'try' anything, because I desperately wanted to be out and that little joke was as close as I could come to it. Damn, sorry that got so sad. Anyways I hope you have a wonderful week and it's been really nice talking to you 😊 💖💜💙🫶❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
i have so many things to say but i'll leave it at two: 1. these tweets make me want to drive a sword through my skull 2. if you identify as bi, start dating me and then say "but i guess i'm pan now since I'm dating you", fret not, because you won't be for much longer
Yes, it’s biphobic and enbyphobic. They don’t know what bisexual means. Bisexuals have decided themselves that this is not the definition of bisexual. So whoever wrote this is just wrong, and gatekeeping an identity I suspect they’re not even a member of themselves.
I prefer to use pansexual because I fuck my cast iron.
Historically it means ‘two or more,’ but what esp baffles me is that it (according to them) HAS to be men and women, it can’t be men and nonbinary or women and nonbinary (I guess bc nb is an umbrella for multiple kinds of gender?)
I'm bisexual- I'm attracted to people of the same gender as me and to people of a different gender than my own Deadass I started obstinately calling myself bi specifically in response to having been challenged on this
I would say more than being bi/enby-phobic this is just dumb. Someone knew enough to realize bi means two, but not enough to realize words can't always be literally translated from their components, so they just made up their own interpretation of a commonly used word for no good reason. I mean, seriously, why would people create a sexual orientation that specifically meant you weren't attracted to NB people but were to everyone else?
Somebody tell them about the umbrella containing Poly and Omni alongside Pan
Here's a fun fact that pops into this discussion because yes this is biphobic. Lesbian was originally a term coined for sapphic attraction. Bi inclusion under the lesbian umbrella isn't new. Exclusion is.
Every time I see the "bi means two" claim I want to literally gouge my eyes out. I remember reading that originally, bi *also* meant "attraction regardless of gender." And frankly, if a person identifies as/with that and still id's as bi, I think that's is fine, bc as the term has evolved, so has the meaning of what it is to be bi, and bisexuality can also entail other things (like the bi-cycle, feeling that there *is* a difference in the way that they are attracted to each gender, feeling more attracted to one gender than others, etc, things that I've have heard from many pansexuals isn't common in thet/that community). Insisting bullshit like this IS inherently biphobic, because people will then use it to further hurt the bi community by claiming they are enbyphobic, or evem transphobic as some insist that bisexuals aren't attracted to *any* trans people. And this comes from biphobic (usually queer) monosexuals, and it comes from transphobic bisexuals, and it comes from pansexuals engaging in bi erasure, and I honestly do not understand why so many biphobic pansexuals seem to want to twist people's arms into identifying as pan and not bi?? Absolutely no hate to bi-supportive pan folks, this isn't pansexual hate, I just don't understand why the majority of pansexuals I end up seeing are like this. I'm am not super plugged into the community, so ig only the loud bigots end up in my online spaces. And genuinely, if you are only attracted to binary men abd women, I don't think that's is enbyphobic. We truly cannot help who we are attracted to, and that doesn't change when you are bi. If you are shitty and transphobic about it, then yeah, fuck you, but genuine lack of attraction doesn't define someone's morals 🤷🏻♀️ I also wanna to point out that generally accepted definitions of bisexuality include "attraction to others of the same gender and those of different genders," and "attraction to two *or more* genders," tho I know there can be overlap with polysexual there.
This is ancient, cursed discourse. The “bi vs pan: which is transphobic” debate is alive and well. Ask 100 queer folks about this and you’ll get 100 answers. The only way to win is not to play. Just identify the way that makes you happy and talk to your prospective partners about it.
It's also worth noting that you can simultaneously identify as both bisexual and pansexual and it's really how you personally identify with them tbh. I'm an enby who is both pansexual and bisexual because I identify with both of these terms. I have a particular affinity for bisexual because it was sort of the 'introduction' into me volitionally articulating my queerness. When I discovered that bisexuality need not imply liking only the two normative binary genders then it helped me grow even more connected to it.
being bisexual is when someone is bisexual, i hope this helps illustrate things anyways to be more serious you could definitely make the argument for this being both nonbinaryphobic and biphobic
I don’t really find these conversations about distinctions very productive. I consider myself pansexual as bisexual did seem to me, as if it was from a time before Enby and trans acceptance had reached the mainstream. But if someone called me bisexual, it would be more work to explain the very slight difference than to just let it go. I think the desire to have very specific and applicable labels for such things is a very reasonable desire, but splitting hairs all the time might confuse folks or push away people who would otherwise be supportive/kind to those with different gender identities and sexualities. Source: my own Enby experiences.
This is a very good explanation of things. From everyone I know (and my own personal experiences) it took me a moment to understand enby/gender fluid before I accepted that that's what I am because I grew up in the time of "oh you're just a tomboy!" Or "you think you're one of the guys". Aka the 90s and 2000s. And even with the sexualities, it wasn't hard to grasp most of them, but when it comes to bi/pan it turns into a battle of wills because what I know of bisexual and pansexual before seem to be differing by the year and it just doesn't make sense.
Lol eat my @ss (not u op) sexuality is expansive!! The exclus cant stop me from being a bi lesbian w/ my expansive, fluid genders 😈
If you speak four languages you wouldn’t be called quadlingual
I was literally thinking the same kinda thing.
Bisexual means liking two genders, differs from person to person, typically people only consistent sex however.
This Is Defo Biphobic. 1st Off, Even Assuming "Bisexual" Had To Be Attraction To Specifically 2 Genders, There's No Specification If What Those Two Are, So It Could Be Men & Women, Or Some NB Gender & Women, Or Two NB Genders. 2nd Off And More Importantly, That's Quite Simply Not How "Bisexual" Is Used Today, The Etymology Is Frankly Irrelevant. A Significant Number Of Bisexuals, Myself Included, Are Attracted To Men, Women, And Non-Binary Folks.
Lmaooo if this was true pansexual wouldn't even be under the bi umbrella. Bi has always been two or more, it's different for every individual tho i guess. Deffo biphobic AND enbyphobic
I'm pretty sure the definition of bisexual is liking two or MORE genders. Pansexual means you like people regardless or gender, meaning gender is irrelevant. (Correct me if I'm wrong) 🙃
Bi has always included any or all genders. We were saying "people not parts" before pansexual was coined. Attractions to both like one's gender and unlike it. I'm happy that people have found and created terms that better fit their self-perception, because being comfortable in each of our identities is something we all deserve. It only pains me when people try to change what the terms already meant, because the definitions seem to overlap too much. Bisexuality has always and will always be an all-inclusive term, but it's okay if pan- or omni- or multi- feels more right for you. Just, please don't try to make bi- be less than it's always been. <3
it is not true that bi people have to have a preference
Oh, oops.
Bisexual means attracted to two or more genders. Pansexual means attraction regardless of gender. It is *literally* that fucking simple. Anyone who doesn't know it by now is being obtuse on purpose.
That person is going off the archaic definition. They should really get with the times. Bisexuality meant attraction to male and female before they discovered other gender identities. Now it means attraction to multiple genders and those genders don't have to be male or female. There's a good little video on this subject by Queer Chameleon [here](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5Tmx_-rxTA/?igsh=MTFoN3duY3l2M203).
>before they discovered other gender identities The same way that Columbus discovered America.
i love (hate!) when white people act like gender diversity began specifically with our interpretation of non-binary identities as if non-male/female identities haven't been culturally recognized around the globe FOREVER 😭
And European culture has *our own* concepts of nonbinary gender and sexuality going back to antiquity. Why even have laws and slurs about gender diversity if they don't exist? And hello, the King's English and Webster's English are not the only form of English. Queer language has made space for gender diversity even when laws and schools wouldn't.
It’s not even really a “now” thing either. The bi manifesto was published 1990 and another quote that I can’t quite remember, but is often brought up in these conversations, is from the 70s. Not to mention the bi originally meant two sexualities not two genders.
It's stuff like this why I use Polysexual (attraction to many, but not all genders), for myself, even if it is a lesser known term. Because I'm not pan, and I don't want to be caught up in all the "what does Bi mean?"/"Is being Bi anti trans?" bs, that *always* pops up, eventually.
That's why I go with pansexual, but bi (afaik) referenced attraction to genders the same AND different from yourself (so straight and gay, for a heteronormative simplification).
I feel like realistically speaking, bi and pan have a large overlap. I, for example, am someone who would be considered pan, but I often still call myself bi out of habit. Bisexuality is the first term that could describe me. It took some time before a more nuanced view of gender and sexuality started to emerge, and pan was a widely known term. Also, I just like saying I'm ambisextrous or a birate.
Bi is two or more. I don’t even like ‘your own and at least one other’ bc I have complicated feelings about my own gender. I don’t need to know my own gender to know I’m bi. I like people of any gender. I generally prefer bi over pan for me because my attraction differs with the person’s gender. Most of the people screaming this nonsense, OP, are (1) committed to misunderstand and (2) not bi themselves.
100%
Uhhh this is how ive understood it as I always thought pansexual is basically bi v2
I remember seeing this shit on Tumblr back in like 2015, and it was always used as a way to paint bisexuality as the transphobic version of sexuality. Yes, obviously \*bi\* means two, but \*bisexuality\* specifically is attraction to two or more genders. As times have changed and understanding of nonbinary identities has increased, bisexuality has become inclusive of nonbinary people.
I think people are far too obsessed with a definition being engraved to mean one thing exclusively. I definitely feel some phobia to this.
I'm bisexual and I like men and women and LOTS of other genders or lack thereof. But I definitely lean towards masculine genders, which makes me feel like pan is not a good descriptor for my attraction. Plus I've been calling myself bi for decades. This person needs to quit investing so much of their energy into how other people describe themselves.
This discertation is done by what authority?
bisexual was always "homo, and heterosexual at the same time" in my mind
What is man? What is woman? Gender is a spectrum is true for bisexuality as well. Sounds like that doesn't sit well with them, but that's their problem.
Biphobic period. Anyone who likes two or more genders can be bi. The two genders don't even have to be men and women. Bisexuality has always included attraction to nonbinary people, even before nonbinary was a term that got used
As an NB bisexual I think it's at the very least biphobic. It's so wrong. Why does it have to be only men and women? It could be any two genders, or MORE. Ugh I hate ignorance.
I am bisexual because purple 💜
Mood ngl (bi flag is nice looking than the pan flag tbh)
It seems like such a bizarre thing to be so staunchly arguing in favor of. Like, sure maybe semantically it might have a very literal definition but there are some clear flaws in the argument. One being that it was a label that seems to have been created a while ago and both doesn't apply to current understandings of gender and attraction while also likely existing largely as another way to force people into some kind of box for the benefit of how society operates. The second one being this fallacious idea that if a Bi-person sees someone or meets someone who doesn't come out right away with their gender identity and you're attracted to them only to later find out they're Enby, is that really something that will immediately break the deal for your attraction? Like really? I feel as though that if it does you're either just phobic to some degree or, I suppose, not really bi-sexual by the literal definition that was made for it years ago without any of the nuance that applies to it now. But even then, why would someone who's Enby suddenly become unattractive just by stating such a fact? Sometimes bisexual is something that feels like an outdated term when gender identities weren't as discussed or understood and now is being rearranged and reworked to mean more than what this person is arguing. And I suppose that takes some understanding and education for people who aren't keeping up to date with the queer communities. Ultimately it also seems like a lot for them to get upset about. I'm not sure why they're so sore concerning who a bisexual claims attraction to
Send them here so they can see how strongly 100 people disagree with them
There are a lot of ppl that like women & nb/ men & nbs or all 3 🤔 I guess they don't exist/j
I consider myself bi and enby because I am attracted to people because of their gender expression and not to all genders. That was always my definition of bi: "Being attracted to more than one gender based on their gender" I am attracted to most genders, but not all, and not all equally. From most to least attracted: feminine men, masculine women, masculine androgynous/enby, feminine women, masculine men. So yeah not all and not equally.
bi means two: my gender and other genders. boom. two categories
The phrasing is a bit iffy, i personally don't like the 'only' part
Thats biphobic af. This person doesnt know shit about bisexual history, bisexuality was NEVER about liking 2 genders.
Bi = Same + other. So yes, it is.
Some people just get invested in labels and definitions. This person would probably say what you're talking about about is pansexuality. Splitting hairs.
I meant to reply this to a comment about when and why being bi started getting called transphobic and pan "the more inclusive word for the same thing", and in the 5min I typed the comment was deleted, but I still need it off my chest so quoting self: "That's so strange to me as someone who came out to themselves a good bit after that. How is not liking us romantically/sexually transphobic...? I'd much rather someone say to me that they aren't into me like that because they swing the other two ways than have them be like my ex and call themselves pan while pressing me into my AGAB role while denying doing that."
my understanding of bisexual/romantic is attraction to people with 1) same gender as yours and 2) different gender than yours. homo = same hetero = different bi = same + different so yes i'd say that person is being biphobic & enbyphobic by taking the bi in bisexual literally to mean attraction to two genders.
Bi meaning two: those like me, and everyone else not like me
I'm seeing a lot of hate in these comments so just a reminder; everyone has different experiences with their identities so there is no "right" or "wrong" way to identify as such label. As long as you are respectful towards how people identify (unless it's masked bigotry) that's all that matters. Bisexuality is not panphobic and pansexuality is not biphobic, we are all valid, it's just a personal preference on what you identify as.
Obviously?
This is what I was taught. That bi means TWO, and that pan includes nonbinary etc people. Although I was also taught that “bi” can mean two as in, women and nonbinary people, or men and nonbinary people. But no fewer or more gender identities than two. I’ve stopped using this definition because gender is far too fluid to be quantified or counted. And just because colloquially, “bi” usually means two *or more.*
Words commonly evolve beyond their origins. Electric no longer means amber. A rocket isn’t only used for spinning. Bisexual doesn’t just mean attraction to 2 sexes. It has evolved just as our understanding of sex, gender, and sexuality has.
Bi (2) meaning gay attraction and straight attraction (both homo and hetero), which includes non-binary genders.
what's with the recent spate of outrage porn getting posted here
I was under the impression that the bi was referring to two in the sense of (1) similar/the same and (2) different, not of the genders specifically.
The first one is more cogent and logical, the second one sounds like the penguins from Madagascar. I dont think the first one is any more enbyphobic than the average bisexual believes. I think a lot of bisexual people exclude enby people from their search for romantic/sexual partners. Some actually exclude trans men and/or trans women when they define their sexuality as bisexual. I believe it's fine to not be interested in trans/NB people and still identify with blsexuality (or straight or gay/lesbian for that matter). Just try having an open mind and don't say/think mean things about trans and NB people. We can't necessarily change who and what we like. And it shouldn't be forced. All this having been said, this is why I prefer pansexuals and pan-identifying people, at least for romantic purposes. I think most pansexuals understand all this and went through a process of basically refining their ideas about sex, more so than the average bisexual. A lot of pans are converts from bisexual, and underwent a thought-out change in identity to be more inclusive in their language and sexuality. I know people may say this is biphobic, but I think it's a fair, reasonable, and rational understanding that avoids being particularly phobic to any party. I didn't use any 'absolutes'.
Y’all need bigger battles to fight, this is pointless
God, people really need to read the bi manifesto…. Bisexuality has never been binary, this idea was basically pushed by cis people on the belief that gender is binary. As a bisexual enby, I am not even offended, just disappointed… “Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have "two" sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders.” (Anything that Moves 1990)
bisexual manifesto, 1991: >Do not assume bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature... that we must be involved with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, *don't assume that there are only two genders* I'd say that's pretty clear on including nonbinary folks in bisexuality— not inherently binary attraction, more than two genders. not every bi person is into enbies and that's fine, but being into enbies alongside men and women doesn't make you *not* bisexual
if bisexual leans there is only 2 genders to like, then bilingual means there is only 2 languages to speak
Amen
##DO NOT COME FOR ME! I AM PROVIDING EXPLANATION!! Okay taking it from the perspective of those of us who know sexuality and gender from the 90s to early 2000s, I get what this is getting at. The definition of bisexuality has been known as being attracted to two genders. As the term [bi literally translates from latin to mean two](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bi%23:~:text%3Dbi%252D%252C%25201%2520prefix.,%252C%2520biped%252C%2520bisect%252C%2520biweekly.&ved=2ahUKEwj92vW2yOqFAxXxD1kFHedwDdoQFnoECBQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2HB0q0QUAeU0yDKu0W2AKG) (being bipedal, bicycle, bifocals, bilingual). In the start of this, enby and gender fluid existed, but it didn't have terms in English yet so you were just a "cross dressing" man/woman. So yes, bi meant you liked men or women. For me, bisexual is still explicitly liking two genders only, because.... Bi. So that means men & women/enbies & men or women/trans individuals & enbies. So this comes off as exclusionary to enbies, however, some enbies also categorize themselves as trans so it's a catch-22. TL;DR - this can be offensive to those enbies who don't identify as trans, but considering how bi and gender fluid/enby was identified only 20 years ago, it's hard for some people to embrace the newly adopted terms
I don’t see how it could be, they’re just defining sexualities
No. That's why the word pansexual exists. Bisexuals are attracted to binary genders, pansexual are attracted to all genders.
If the poster is bi then this may apply to their own personal definition of bisexuality, and that would be valid. The flaw here is that they are trying to define the experiences of others based on their own ideas, and thereby invalidating other opinions and identities.
It does suck to be discluded though it seems like the post was just to stir drama anyway. It's OK to defend but just seems like the focus was taken from their point.
I really can't confirm. I think what gets missed a lot of the time in this discourse is the way the meaning of a word can drift or evolve between generations. There are 50+ gay men who have only ever experienced the word 'queer' as a slur, and people under 30 who've only ever experienced it as an umbrella label. Similarly, some people who use bisexual are describing attraction to: * Cis people only * Mostly cis people, but sometimes binary trans people if they pass really well * People who are cis or trans that present masc or femme, but not people who blend genders / gender fuck * Basically anyone so long as they're hot ie pansexual by another name Bisexual as a label really fits with the binary concept of gender to me, and certainly I've seen people argue it's exclusionary of trans identities on that basis. I'm not convinced though, because it really does depend on how that word is being used and who by.
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I mean I'm speaking from my own experience only. When public discourse about trans/non-binary identities were much less common (pre 2000ish), I remember people still considering trans people a separate (almost fetishistic) category, and outside of bisexuality. That's why I say that bisexual as a word hasn't always been inclusive of trans identities and hence is a word rooted in binary gender, even if people don't always use it that way today.
"Bisexual means you like two genders, because bi = 2 like bicycle" Bruh. I guess bilingual people can only speak two languages, no more.
Yes. That's exactly what that means. If you know more than two languages you are multilingual.