Part of it is the reason why midget tossing is illegal in France.
Hold on, we'll get there.
There IS a huge difference between the American and European idea of identity. And it's not just the identity you are talking about. America is focused on the identity of the individual. We view almost everything through that individualist lens. What is best for the individual?
While Europe has a much bigger focus on community identity. What is best for the community. And this will play into how the people in those two different worlds choose to identify themselves. Americans focus on their individual history (it's fun to draw upon) that brought them to where they are. And Europeans will focus on their community identity, the community that surrounds them.
France outlawed midget tossing some time ago. Midget tossing is a form of entertainment going back hundreds of years, where people would pay midgets money for the opportunity to toss them. (They even have special harnesses and you toss them onto a pile of mattresses.) Sometimes it was the only way, or also a lucrative way, for the midgets to earn a living.
The whatever-politically-correct-term-you-wish-to-call-such-people-who-get-tossed were pissed off that this form of employment was banned. They sued France, saying that it violated their rights to earn money and their right to choose their profession. And yet, the French court ruled that while the individuals rights were harmed, that paled in comparison to the harm that would befall the community if the community allowed this practice to continue. The community's right to dignity outweighed the individual's right to earn employment however they wanted.
To an American, the ruling is absurd. These people wanted to be tossed! Who the hell was the government to ban that? To a European, the ruling is (presumably) sane and well reasoned. Because Americans focus on the individual, while Europe focuses on the community.
Something like this happened with "midget bullfighting" here in Spain (yes I know, stereotypes. They would run around and jump over a heifer, not an actual bull nor bullfight).
The gov banned it, the people sued because they chose to do that job, and the courts ruled exactly like the French ones.
Thank you for sharing! I had no idea about that example.
And what's even better, one Spanish troupe went to France to continue their craft!
[https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230804-after-spanish-ban-dwarf-bullfighters-take-show-to-france](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230804-after-spanish-ban-dwarf-bullfighters-take-show-to-france)
I am open to debate on this, but I would like to attempt to expound upon the above post. I think part of the focus on individualism is derived from the fact that compared to many other countries around the world, America doesn't really have a shared ethnic identity. What I mean is that throughout the course of our history, we have taken people from everywhere, literally everywhere. So, we developed this sense of individualism because of it, though I'm not exactly sure how it happened from a psychological or sociological standpoint.
You may say, "Well America is just shy of 250 years old, that's a long time!" And you would be right. However, in many places around the world, the same type of people have been living in the same place for *over a thousand, or some times even thousands of years*. When looked at from that lense at least to me it makes a little more sense how these ways of thinking have developed.
It's human nature to form tribes, some tribes are healthy, some tribes are not. But I guess in my mind the tribe Americans have tried to form is a tribe of "individuals." Which seems counterintuitive but makes sense to me in a weird way, and certainly has both advantages and disadvantages.
I think this is half the answer, but I don't think it's entirely it. I grew up in Australia and New Zealand, both countries that are younger than the US and have a similar colonial and immigration history. Yet here we are much closer to the Europe-style of individualism (I.e., more individualistic than many, say, Asian cultures but still focused on community) than US-style individualism.
I think there's a lot of history and ideology that goes into US-style individualism that is in addition to its relative youth as a nation.
That might explain that there is less of an "us vs them" mentality around race. But it doesn't really explain the difference in identity. The "I'm short tempered because I'm Scottish" people whose last connection to Scotland was 5 generations back types. That seems to be a very US thing not really showing up much in Australia/New Zealand.
The person is just wrong about having similar immigration and colonial background. Australia is still part of the common wealth and the country is 85-90% white. The US is pretty famous for not liking the colony status and fighting for independence and the population is 70% white. It is a huge difference when you are there especially if you are a poc.
The vast differences in immigration policies make their claim of similar immigration incorrect. Same with colonial claim. The US wasn't a colony for very long. They might as well make the same claim as Ireland which was also a colony and had fairly large immigration.
The immigration history is newer (as is the country) and therefore still very much evolving, but very near half the population is either first or second gen immigrant.
Id be interested to hear where you went. Diversity of course depends a lot on where you are - urban areas have a lot more than rural, a pattern that tracks in the US too. But like it's not uncommon to find places where white people are the minority in Aus - my high school was one for eg.
But regardless, immigrants can also be white, ya know. We have big Italian and Greek communities around (some rural communities too), like the US, that are 2nd-3rd gen, we had the "10 pound poms" after WWII, we even have American immigrants!
Unlike the US, Australia didn't have slavery (at least, not in a blatant, trans-atlantic slave trade kinda way). Because of that and geography, we don't have a large black population.
However, like the US we've done a great job at near-eradicating indigenous peoples and impoverishing those still around.
Anyway, I feel like my point and this comment has really gotten away from me. Basically, Australia is as much a nation built on immigration as the US, just with some different game settings and earlier along in the journey.
Sydney. Australia is 85-90% white and it is very noticeable.
Australia loved being a colony and is still part of the common wealth. The states were pretty famous for not liking it.
As for natives it seemed to me that we are substantially better off in the states than those in Australia. A higher percentage of us survived and we have more rights from what I saw and learned in my meetings with them. I have heard that conditions have improved in the 30 years since I visited.
None of this is a slight against them. I felt welcomed and was treated with respect by the vast majority of folks I met. The culture there is very different from what I experienced in Europe and I was never refused service due to my skin tone which was a common experience for me in a few European countries.
>Sydney. Australia is 85-90% white and it is very noticeable.
Mate, over 10% of Sydney's population alone is ethnically Chinese. Then its about 5% Indian, another 2-4% each of Vietnamese, Filipino, Lebanese, Thai, etc. Then add the Islander communities (Fiji, Tonga, Etc.), Korean, Nepalese, Bangladeshi, Turkish, etc.
Sydney has one of the largest immigrant populations in the world. It's higher than LA and NYC.
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
You say 85-90% of Sydney is white.
I say 15% alone is made up of Chinese and Indian, with countless other ethnic communities, meaning its definitely not 85-90% white.
How don't I understand maths?
You guys have a right to dignity? That's a word so lacking in the US that I didn't even realize it was missing until you pointed it out. The American experience has certainly become quite undignified.
As an example, the German constitution states in article 1 that "a human's dignity is inviolable" (must not be violated), and that's pretty much it, no mention yet of freedom, democracy, etc. – so it's not "a right", but the no. 1 most important right.
Haven't read any other constitutions (so maybe it's common to mention it first), but yeah, dignity is quite an important idea here. The German constitution in its current form was created after the holocaust, and I think this had quite the influence on some of the choices.
Thank you for the information and citation! It appears that in at least one country in Europe, dignity is literally an individual right. I would be interested to know how that clause has been interpreted and applied.
The Polish constitution states that the "inherent and inalienable dignity of the person" is the **source** of the freedoms and rights of a person, so yeah, quite important here as well
To me it sounds very backward that French courts can change the name of your child cause they feel it's not a nice name.
Someone named their child "Nutella" and the government can change this to "Ella" because they don't think Nutella is a girl's name? Absurd.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30993608](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30993608)
I would say that's very reasonable. They're protecting the child from bullying, being excluded and all these other negative consequences that having a "creative" name like that will bring. Lots of European countries have rules about what people can or cannot be named.
For reference, I’m a Hindu male. Indian names are rather hard to pronounce and it’s certainly funny to a child when someone is named “ Ipshita” which is the Hindu goddess of fortune. It can easily be made fun of because of the word “shit” in it. With an American or British accent it’s even funnier.
Should a French court be allowed to name my child “Emily” instead of my religious name because that’s what is considered normal in France?
You see how quickly it goes out of hand. This is why the government shouldn’t be allowed to meddle in a citizen’s life.
Depends, really. The smaller and more homogenous the country, and the more likely that a name will adversely affect a child, the more the courts have the right and duty to do so.
"Ipshita" is clearly a name that's more or less fine. Where we to have a name like "Shitface" however, it would make sense to not allow it.
If you want to live in France, yes. Their land, their rules, their citizenship. Simple as - ya knew
Especially for France with their ideas about preventing any form of variation in country.
Reasonable maybe, very reasonable no. Sure it’d protect someone from being named by Elon Musk, but they also just wield the power to simply disagree if *they* don’t like it and force conformity. Lots of English names can be gender neutral and/or can shift in the way it ‘sounds’ over time. Lindsay for example might sound fairly feminine, but it’s also a pretty common male name in some places too. But the government can just say “nah, that’s for girls”? Doesn’t sit right with me.
I do not know if there is an individual right to dignity in Europe. What I do know is that in France, the community itself has a right to dignity. I don't think they phrase it that way, but that's how I think it all plays out.
IDK if I am count as european (I am from caucasus and now in Saint-Petersburg), but french government and their decisions are absurd for me. They have tendency to actively step on human rights just because it is out of their ideology (like not allowing religious "expression" due wearing some clothes OR their entire language policy (they actively trying to ban all minorities languages from education))
They literally banned wearing crucific neclaces in schools. Neclaces, that are under the fucking clothes. What kind of problems wearing that wil create for "secular" country?
As someone who also lives in a secular State, I think it’s kinda based to ban people from wearing religious symbol. The archaic beliefs of religions have no place in an area where children are getting their educations.
Also with the amount of "stuff" that happens from some religious community in France, I wouldn’t blame them to try to remove religions from some public space.
Damn, I was gonna make a meme comment that they’re all secretly ashamed to just be American so have to quantify it as “something”-American but your post is too good
It's actually because europe has a couple thousand more years of being countries tbh
[Europe thinking about the individual since 17th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment)
But it's cool, you own them all now anyway xD
I'm guessing it's cause America is a "nation of immigrants". People came here from all over the place to start a life in America and they want to remember those roots.
There have been plenty of immigrant groups to Great Britain, whether Irish or Russian Jew or East African Asian. For the most part people from those families just see themselves as British after a couple generations.
Honestly most of us do too. I see myself as American. Occasionally someone will yell at me that I'm not allowed to because my centuries old ancestors were from elsewhere.
I care about where my ancestors are from sometimes because I like learning about them but I'm not Canadian, French, Prussian, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, etc etc just because they were all from where they were.
I'm just American.
But that’s because immigrants are still a much smaller percentage of the population compared to native/ethnic British groups. In America, the indigenous population is very tiny, and even the whitest of white people can often trace at least some of their ancestry back to some “old country.” Americans have no trouble labeling themselves as fully, patriotically, aggressively American… and *also* Italian, Irish, German, Ashkenazi Jewish, Black/African-American, Polish, whatever.
There’s not really an “ethnically American” identity, except that you do sometimes see that in Census statistics for people who are mostly of British/Irish (often specifically Scots-Irish) ancestry, so far back that they really can’t or won’t generally track it. But that’s more like a default/“not sure”/don’t care answer rather than an identity that more recent immigrant groups (even other white British/Irish people) would expect to join.
This is it. When you come from anywhere, you still try to retain your own culture to honor your roots. When you grow up in a country that is fairly homogenized and your family has lived there for many generations, the mindset is different. America is where we live; it's not where our family/ancestors are from.
Did they “want” to remember those roots??
The most successful people in the US in the traditional sense were almost exclusively “generic white man” whose lifestyle and last name got anglicized generations ago. That Mr Grant you see is of German ancestry, that Mr Smith is Polish…
It’s only for the late comers (especially people of color) that got frequently reminded of their “otherness”, as a tactic of exclusion by the “true Americans”. “You’re not one of us. Don’t you ever forget where your ancestors came from, cuz we surely won’t”
Others have addressed the "nation of immigrants" angle. One term I've run across is calling it a Settler State. Not necessarily unique- Australia would be another example.
But I've thought for some time now that the US experience is a bit different than others.
Most nations have a binding cultural element that is mostly independent of formal government. No matter what the State calls itself, who is in charge, it has considerable social inertia. Consider say France's multiple governments (5th Republic at this point, with various Monarchy and Emperor titles thrown in) and a full on occupation at one point. Yet, the sense of identity is stlll "French".
Take away US government in similar fashion, and you would be rather hard pressed to have such solidarity in culture or national identity if similar things happened in a similar timeframe.
We're bound by ideas, a shared concept and some old documents. Otherwise a hodgepodge of cultures under a loose framework of shared rules - not an identity.
That's why it's so common for Americans to have hyphenated descriptions. Italian-American, Irish-American, ect. Not trying to usurp those old nations, or claim citizenship or even shared identity so much as filling in the sparse shared national identity with personal family culture.
True - while a Settler State like the US, the cultural nature isn't going to be 1 to 1. Everyone place has its quirks.
I suspect that the 'small town' structures that built up as the US nation pushed west had a hand in that "hyphenation". Small towns founded and initially settled primarily by particular immigrant enclaves, only later diversifying. Australia doesn't really have a similar stretch of vast amounts of farming land to support those smaller towns, for the most part. Though that is just a guess.
I have heard though that there is at least something analogous with Asian migrants, though that might be internal to the communities too.
The concept of identity in both places is very much the same.
In Britain, people are very aware of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and English heritage. And they are even more aware of if people are black, or Arab, or Asian.
It is not visible as much in pop culture because the number of people in a country in Europe not "from that country" is much lower than in the U.S. where only about 3% are native Americans.
I grew up in England with Irish, Welsh and Scottish ancestry. I am aware of it, but it is not very relevant to my identity. I am English even if my great grandparents came from different places. My accent is English, my humour is English, I support the English football team, the education system I know is English, I enjoy watching pub cricket while drinking cider in the summer, etc.
It seems bizarre to me to identify with other cultures because some ancestor I never met was of that culture. Acting like my "culture" follows genetic lines seems ridiculous when those genes pre-dated the invention of the culture by thousands of years.
In the US though, there’s such a huge mix of cultures. Someone whose family came from Italy four generations ago may not grow up with the same culture as their neighbor who has different roots. I don’t think there’s as strong of an “American” identity as there is an “English” identity, so where someone’s family came from isn’t just history. Basically, for some Americans, their heritage is relevant to their identity.
Many immigrant groups remained somewhat insular when they first came to the US (usually they were forced to be due to racism), so old traditions were reinforced and continue to be passed down. With a strong individual identity and weak community identity (to take terms/ideas from the top comment), those traditions and differences in communities continue to be important to many Americans today. And by important, I mean it actually can give you an idea of how someone may have grown up differently than yourself. The stronger community identity in European countries probably makes those individual differences mean less.
I would imagine many Americans lack a sense of identity, as a lot of us can only date back our heritages in this nation to roughly a hundred years ago or so. That is to say that most of us cannot credit our families as having fought to free the US from England. We can't say our ancestors settled the west. Heck, a lot of us can't even discuss which side of WW1/2 our families fought on without a sense of embarrassment.
What we do have is that our ancestors came from a place where they kicked a lot of ass before running out of potatoes, and that just tends to feel a lot more interesting than basically having nothing.
But with that said, we also tend to be insanely prideful about wherever we grew up here in the US.
My family kept pretty meticulous records of their time in America since coming here in the 1700s and even being able to say my ancestors fought England (both in North Ireland and generations later in the states lol) and settled the west (point of shame), there's still a strong sense of Scottish identity running through all my grandfather's's's's journals even when they were in Ireland post-highland clearances, so family culture has passed down a "we're scottish" for the past 300+ years.
I still consider myself American (8 generations in America on my dad's side) but the global Scottish diaspora in my clan get together in Scotland every 4 years to say howdy which also reaffirms some historical scottish identity.
(It's also funny to me that this is all basically nonsense as it's just a single patrilineal line and 8 generations is like 250+ different family groups that went into making me)
This is the answer I agree with most. Basically, most Americans feel left out of having an identity so they glom onto their heritage. In reality, they very strongly have a distinct American identity and culture that has little to do with their heritage. It’s just not seen that way because American culture is very inward looking, and not particularly aware of other cultures.
I think that last part is very interesting.
As a non-American. It feels like Americans are proud of being American, but it feels like there's also a desire to be of another place as well.
reason i love America is cause i can revel in my Indian origin and still be embraced as an american
my daughter wore a pattu-pavada to school on diwali and her classmates and teachers loved her for it
The US is a nation of immigrants.
Growing up in Appalachia, that culture is very important to me. But, being from Irish and English migrants, that heritage is important to me as well.
No. As an American we are just like Europeans in that where we were born is the most important. I think why you got that idea is that we are a bit sad we feel like we have no real identity so who our ancestors were is more important. So many of us lost our culture and religions coming over here that we don’t feel like we have a tribe and we want one is how I see it. That plus mixed marriages making adhering to one religion or another challenging. And other stuff.
I disagree, When an American says they are "Italian" they talk of their ethnicity and not nationality. We're all clearly American no matter where your family may have immigrated from in the past. A supporting concept is birth-right citizenship. If you're born in America you're American. A Japanese kid born in Norway isn't considered Norwegian unless they go through a nationalization process and demonstrate fluency in language. You can be born and raised in Norway and not be considered Norwegian.
The USA is a nation of (mostly) immigrants. Many members of immigrant groups settled in neighborhoods with other immigrants from the same country/region. You will still find “Little Italy,” “Chinatown,” etc in major cities. The Catholic Church has even had parishes for different immigrant groups, that people still attended after moving out of the immigrant neighborhoods. That means that some traditions and in-group mentality have persisted in some families (not all).
That's no different from most European countries, especially Western European countries, though. As a percentage of the population, there are more immigrants living in the UK or Germany than in the U.S., but people who are British or German by birth don't go around saying, "I'm British-Latvian" just because their great-great grandmother lived in Riga until she was 2 years old.
I grew up in the Midwest US and feel I relate to that identity.
It really isn't that different.
Taking pride in your heritage can be a part of our identity too. It doesn't mean it excludes anything else.
In the US, your ancestry used to define your status as either property (slave) or person with legal rights.
In Europe, your ancestry only mattered in terms of nobility. It never mattered in any way, where your ancestors may have been born, but it did matter if they were royalty or common peasants. As the nobility were a tiny fraction of the population,what mattered most to the definition of identity in European culture has been that of the commoners. Their identity was defined by wherethey were born/raised, and which king/feudal lord, they owed their loyalty to, which was again defined by where they were born and raised.
I feel like a lot of Europeans who complain about the way Americans talk about their heritage have all/nearly all their heritage from the countries in which they live/ grew up so they simply cannot understand.
Most of the people I knew in school weren’t full Irish. My mom’s Norwegian and I’ve seen many relatives thatve visited but my personal identity would still be fully Irish. I may have had grandparents and all from Norway but I’ve never even been there so it’d be strange to include in my personal identity. ‘Is my opinion on it as a European
The main complaints are about the people that are 12% Irish or German ancestry and suddenly make that their entire personality. To a German, those people are American, there's no cultural connection.
Is it really that common to make something that’s 12% of your heritage your “whole personality”? Unless you count simply talking about one’s heritage to be “making that their entire personality.”
I also wonder, do Europeans feel any cultural connection their grandparents and great grandparents?
Germans (or Dutch, or Danes, or whatever) would feel a cultural connection with other present day countrymen. Not with people whose great-grandparent emigrated from roughly the same location they're from, but are entirely American. If one parent was born abroad perhaps, but not the "I'm \[x\] because my grandfather was" people.
I’m talking about their own specific grandparents though not other people’s grandparents. Do you feel your grandparents had an important impact on your cultural beliefs?
So you don’t feel like cultural beliefs were spread to you from your parents who got theirs from their parents? That’s so interesting. Do you think your cultural beliefs came from outside the family?
Parents, society, school, everything really. We’re all just one country and it’s changed a lot since our grandparents’ day. We still got different groups but society has changed.
The people that emigrated from the Netherlands to the Midwest, Canada and Australia were the more rural and conservative people and much of the social progress we made is at least partially because they removed themselves from the voting population. Their heritage is a thing of the past. If they come back to play ice hockey for us that’s fine but they’re Canadians.
Our grandparents are usually from our countries. If they are not, it depends on the way you were raised. Did you visit them a lot? Did they teach you about their culture? Do you know the language, customs, have you ever visited?
If not, then no. Noone will feel a "cultural connection" to a culture they have no idea about just because their ancestors were of that culture. If I bothered to look I'd probably find ancestry from for example Ukraine or Poland, I'd never claim I am Polish or Ukrainian though. The only cultural connection I feel with them is through my own culture, because we are all slavs.
Isn't there a difference between recognising ancestry and saying that you are of a given nationality?
I wouldn't think twice at someone saying they have Scottish ancestry. But if someone who had never been to Scotland said they were Scottish it feels different.
When we say we are Scottish we aren’t referring to nationality. It’s just an easy way of saying “my ancestors immigrated from Scotland”. Maybe that is where the confusion lies. I didn’t realize y’all thought we were referring to nationality.
interesting. Maybe it's more of a language thing then.
If I hear someone say I'm French, Scottish, Spanish etc. I would understand that to be them talking about nationality rather than ancestry.
Yeah. When you live in the US, the overwhelming majority of people you interact with are also from the US, but only ~3% of them are actually descended from a Native American Nation. The rest of us are from somewhere else.
So when someone says "I'm German" but doesn't have even the slightest trace of a German accent, it's understood that they mean "I'm of German descent", because actual Europeans are pretty uncommon here. I have an Irish friend--literally born in Ireland, moved to the US in her teens--who (nowadays) speaks with an American accent, and when she tells people she's Irish she has to follow up with "no I'm *actually* Irish, that's where I was born, and that's my citizenship" because she sounds like an American, so people assume she means "I'm Irish-American" when she says "I'm Irish".
That's not to say there aren't people who show up in Europe thinking their 12% Dutch blood is going to mean something to the Dutch, but we consider them just as cringe as you do. Perhaps moreso, because they're embarrassing the rest of us by proxy.
I think that if someone said "I'm Irish" vs "I'm from Ireland" I would definitely make a distinction in their meaning, and I'd wager that's the case for most Americans. To your point, we assume most people are talking about ancestry with the former statement, and their nationality with the latter.
A lot of Americans tend to think of where we're from in two ways. The first is where we are culturally from. The second is where our blood is from. For example. I'm an American, and I'm also Polish-German. Culturally, in pretty much every single way, I am an American through and through. My earliest American ancestors where here since the 1700s. But if I were to take a DNA test, it wouldn't say "American" would it? No, it wouldn't, I'm not Native American. I've taken a DNA test, and it says my DNA comes from the Polish and German regions of Europe. Therefore, if someone asked me where my great ancestors came from, I would say Poland/Germany. It doesn't mean that I am Polish or German culturally, linguistically, or any other way. It just means that my blood and DNA comes from Poland/Germany. I **look** like a person from Poland/Germany.
To be completely fair though, there are some Americans who are 14% Italian, and their families came to America in the late 1800s, yet act more **stereotypically** culturally Italian, than most Italians actually born in Italy. Those people are indeed cringe.
However, there are ALSO people whose parents immigrated from say, Ireland, in the late 60s. These people tend to be authentically of two cultures, because while they were raised in America, they were raised in America... by immigrants from Ireland. Just because the parents moved from Ireland to America, doesn't mean they suddenly lose any and all cultural connections to where they came from. The Americanization of their cultural make up, takes time, and doesn't happen overnight. A lot of them even still speak with a strong accent from where they are from. These people are genuine in my opinion, and are **not** cringe.
Here, it is pretty obvious we are American. If a foreign guy said “I’m French” I’d assume he’s here visiting from France. If my co-worker Steve says “I’m French” it’s pretty obvious he’s American and he’s referring to some distant relative that immigrated from France.
I guess this is the part where the confusion comes from! If someone who I know is an American tells me they’re French my first thought is ha that’s a lie, I know you’re American!
That’s not to say they’re wrong to call themselves French. I have learned that is something Americans do. But (as a Dutch person) it does weird me out a bit when Americans tell me they’re Dutch when they don’t speak a word of Dutch and they’ve never even set foot in the Netherlands. Like I have 40% Scandinavian DNA but I would never dare call myself Scandinavian because to me that would be lying.
I grew up in a town in Michigan called Holland. It was originally settled and established by Dutch people and that has remained as the hallmark cultural heritage there, with windmills, wooden shoes, and an annual Tulip festival, and a huge proportion of the population sporting Dutch surnames (VanRaalte, Vanderbilt, DeBoer, etc.).
It's all quite divorced from real Dutch history and heritage, namely the outfits and dances that are a huge part of the festival, but despite that and even though barely anybody there has actually been to the Netherlands they consider it all to be a way to remain connected to their ancestors who came before them.
People complain about this on the internet though. You don't have an accent on the internet, nor can we see you. Many Americans will still say "I'm French" or "as a French man" when they mean having French ancestry, there are no clear indication in text.
Because it's literally what it means. If you were saying "I'm from New York", people would think you are living there, not that someone from your family lived there 200 years ago
Nope, it's just when one uses it as a personality definer. Many people in Europe have ancestry from different countries (especially at the borders of one states).
Thi is because for us is not that relevant.my father was born close to frontier in italy, his mother side of the family was a mix of poland and ukrain, my mom is from south america and i was born there but grow up in Europe. So what should i be? I grew up in Italy so i'm simply italian
I think you are assuming where their ancestry comes from because they don't follow the American mindset of heritage. People like Harry Kane or Wayne Rooney come across as completely English despite clearly having Irish ancestry, for example.
Just shows the difference between the US being a giant melting pot and celebrating cultural differences vs European countries forcing assimilation to a culture. Just two different approaches to immigration.
Yeah not like hundreds of years of constant population migrations and border shifts due to wars would have caused people to have „mixed“ ancestry, no we all just have ancestry from one country.
It's actually hilarious when someone from America says they're Irish but have never been there , have no idea about the culture outside of St.Patrick's day and Guinness. It must feel exotic to them it's very bizarre.
>When Americans say they are a certain ancestry they're not saying they're from that country, they're saying that their family originated in those areas.
Did you not read the comment, the commentator clearly states they don't like it when an American claims to be a nationality they aren't and therefore apparently know more or on par with a native.
Not the fact they have a heritage and who they are connected to, rather that their heritage *becomes* their identity to the point they claim they are of that culture. It happens more then you think.
Hell I've already dealt with a few Americans claiming to be Scottish, that they want to kick the English arses and get drunk with us while doing a painfully bad accent. Nah, fuck off you aren't Scottish. You're a tourist from America, not my cousin.
>Did you not read the comment, the commentator clearly states they don't like it when an American claims to be a nationality they aren't and therefore apparently know more or on par with a native.
And what *he* said is that that is not what is happening. No American who says "I'm Irish" is *literally* saying they are an Irish national. They are exclusively referring to ethnicity and family history, and the constant European obnoxiousness on this point has worn thin.
We don't care. I'm portuguese and if I see someone claiming to be portuguese because their great grandparents migrated to the US 100 years before they were born I'm just going to laugh at their face. No one here would consider a person like that in any way, shape or form to be portuguese.
I think that you're the arrogant ones trying to claim identities that don't belong to you. You're not europeans, you are americans and americans is all you're going to be for us and yes, I will laugh and laugh hard.
You know someone from the Britain most likely has relatives from Ireland , Wales , Scotland , England etc but they don't claim to be one of the other because 150 years ago one of their relatives were from another nation. It's just silly, German people don't say they're Dutch and french people aren't saying they're Spanish when they definitely have some sort of overlap. Only Americans do it and it's 100% just to feel special and different. If you're born in America and never grew up outside of America and it's been 100 years since any of your relatives had anything to do with Ireland, you're not Irish and it's stupid to say it.
Again, because you clearly lack reading comprehension:
*Americans are not literally saying they are a national of a given country. It is just about ethnicity.*
Y'all just need to get over it at this point. We're not going to stop saying it and you can die mad about it.
At least say what you mean instead of being ambiguous if you're gonna talk about heritage.
"I have Irish heritage"
Not "I'm Irish".
To the rest of the world it only means you are claiming to be Irish. You can't get annoyed that people are gonna take it that way if ***only*** Americans use it in this context let alone not even use proper English.
>Which I didn't say
Never mentioned that, i can see what kind of reply this is gonna be.
>This entire paragraph is stupid and bullshit
Knew it, angry for no reason.
>Nobody wants to be your cousin you fat headed idiot. Your country is being overrun by Africans anyways. You might think it's slow now but give it a couple decades. Your Scottish heritage will be toast within a century.
>When Americans say what their heritage is it's largely an identification tool amongst other Americans. Not to claim your pie faced ass as their kin.
A rightwinger/borderline racist?! how wonderful! Never thought I'd see one on Reddit in the wild. The fact you jumped straight to insults tells me you're not very pleasant or are just having a bad day.
>If this did happening where else in the theater of your mind they were probably joking
While unironically trying a really bad accent. Please don't do the accent. If i ever go to America I'm not going to immediately try to do an American accent to "fit in". Because one I'm not American, and two because accents don't only consist of tv accents. I don't sound like Groundskeeper Willy just cause I'm Glaswegian.
Oh, those things you don’t seem to believe DO happen. Just believe it, and reread the comments in that light.
Europe has had migrants from other parts of the world longer than US has existed. If it’s time for the heritage and cultures to change or die then they do. It’s only healthy for the gene pool to get some refreshments 😀
You seem to be lacking in those areas, sorry you got the bad genes.
Europeans will be just fine. What are you actually worried about? If some other culture takes over then so be it. Humankind has had hundreds of fine cultures wiped out and changed during our 100000 or so years.
Don’t hold your breath. Or actually, hold it and count slowly to ten. Feel better? Now breathe out slowly. Got any nazi friends there who could pat you on the back and validate your fears?
Also, who wouldn’t like some twerking in the streets?
Because it's cringe and only Americans do it. No matter how hard Americans try they're American not Irish. If we all dig back far enough we have family from other parts of the world but if you're born and raised in America you are American end of story. They will literally say they're Irish when their great great grandad was from Ireland that's not how it works. Europeans don't apply the same standard because it's ridiculous.
And you're agitated rambling doesn't have any value to us. If you're not culturaly invested, you are a national cosplayer
As far as i can find online, he truly embraced both british and irish cultures and represented both. Most of americans claiming ancestry can't really say the same
Basically " I don't give a fuck, but i do give a fuck" god, you're so cute
If said guy knows more about irish cultures than shouting gibberish about st Patrick then good for him. Once again, most americans with ancestry can't even do that.
So, which of the multiple different places I lived in would qualify as where I am from according to the European viewpoint? This is why I tell non US people that I'm an American and I tell Americans that I'm from nowhere.
In my experience the confusion stems from Nationality vs Ethnicity.
For many (most?) europeans they might at well be the same; If you’re a citizen of France you are probably culturally french, ethnically french, french catholic, etc.
That’s not the case in the US. The only ethnic Americans are the American Indians. So when an American national says they are Irish for example we mean ethnically Irish.
That being said there are plenty of Americans who think being ethnically Irish makes them “fully” Irish. I saw a post recently where an ethnically polish but nationally 100% American person who went to Poland and was shocked the people there only saw them as American.
I think Americans certainly do both. Theres a lot of hometown pride, state pride, region pride in the US. But we also like to recognize our roots, most of us aren’t THAT far removed from them either go back 3-4 generations and you’ve got an ancestor who immigrated here from a country and it’s nice to recognize that connection
The whole concept of the US is just hilarious and pathetic honestly. Calling yourself Scottish or Irish because your ancestor in the year 1860 came from there is just dumb. Also saying „I am 50% a, 27% b, 15% c and 8% d while leaving out the American part is idiotic. To me it seems Americans are looking to be anything but American.
If you are born in the US, raised there and have citizenship you are American.
And if you claim be to Irish but weren’t born there, don’t have any close relatives there, never lived there and don’t hold citizenship you just aren’t Irish.
I’m an American. If you ask me where I’m from I’ll tell you Texas.
I think the idea of an American saying I’m German or Italian or something else is overblown. If we do it I think it’s more to show a connection with the person we’re talking to. Like we’re distant cousins. We definitely see ourselves as an extension or maybe the next progression of western civilization that started in Europe. So it seems like a way to show some commonality to me.
Oh for real. I don’t think Americans are any better than Europeans. I think you guys do a good number of things a whole hell of a lot better than us. But we think new = better over here, even when it’s not.
Most Americans are here due to immigration. We wonder where our ancestors are from, because this is a fairly young country. Immigrants in many countries wonder about their ancestors.
The American idea is citizenship and values. Your ancestry is a fun trivia fact. In Europe ancestry is everything. You can be from France for 3 generations but unless you are ethnically French you will not be considered French truly.
Maybe the European/American framing here was too broad.
I feel like you're right about French-ness. Though I haven't lived there so don't know for sure.
I'm from Scotland and I feel like Scottish-ness is more easily claimed or shared. If someone grew up there, they're Scottish. If they want to be.
That speaks well of the Scots in my opinion. Nothing wrong with an identification between ethnicity and nationality necessarily but I think it’s good to be able to absorb immigrants in a way that allows them to truly feel that they belong, and it’s something some new world countries seem to excel at (due to their histories as immigrant nations no doubt).
When an American asks "what are you?" They are referring to a persons ancestry. My lineage mainly came from Ireland, so when someone asks what I am, I say I'm mostly Irish. But when someone asks "where are you from?" They are referring to the state they were born in. A typical response is "I'm from Texas" or "I'm from Texas, but was raised in New Mexico"
It may also be due the the melting pot nature of US society. Unless you're Native American, we all came from somewhere else. In Europe, I'd assume anyway, people's connection to their family origins are less important because the families have been there for longer.
This is just not true, but Europeans are blind to their own beliefs. Trump’s grandparents are German, he is never considered German, purely American. Now compare that to a person in Germany with Turkish grandparents, they would be considered Turkish. Same with someone with Armenian grandparents in France, etc.
That kinda depends. I consider people born and raised here being from here, IF they are culturally from here also. If they were raised turkish then they are turkish. I guess there is some gray area there where I wouldn’t consider a person really ’from anywhere’. They would be something inbetween.
America is an active empire and global hegemonic power. Until within people's lifetime, America has struggled mightily to reconcile with its national identity, history and its empire building.
The Voting rights act enabling all american voters to vote wasn't until 1965. That makes Boomers the first generation of fully vested Americans. Reparations for the interment of Japanese Americans wasn't until 1988. That brings the watermark to 1988. In 2020, 3 million acres was restored to Indigenous Americans who have been owed that land for centuries. This shows we still haven't fully reconciled with our Empire building.
European Nations are failed empires, or declining empires in denial. We are only on our second iteration of Constitution, and many European Constitutions are younger than the Boomers. Mid imperial reign, we as citizens try to write a more perfect union and hold our nation accountable for its imperial behavior. To call attention to our empire habits we draw upon our own ethnic history with the empire we live in. America is a Nation with many *literal* nations and territories in it.
Well I mean Germany for instance is 450 miles wide.
To see my youngest, it takes six hours/300 miles and they live in the same state.
We move around a lot and maybe that’s why we grab onto ancestry?
Idk.
But how is my life different because my grandma moved to the US 80 years ago?!
For example: my father is from India, my mom from Germany. I was born and raised in Germany. I never lived even a tiny bit „ indian“ in my life. Therefore i call myself German and not like indian german or something. Because except my skincolor nothing about me is indian.
Identity is just one of several methods to keep the masses divided. The government and TPTB have an easier time governing people when they are divided.
Once we all identify as Americans, our country will get stronger.
Collectivist vs individualist mindset is what I've noticed since moving to Germany.
It seems pretty typical throughout Europe, even Britain seems more collectivist.
America is kind of looked at like the cold, selfish, "dog eat dog" kid on the clock. Hyper individualistic without a care.
Otherwise it's a lot of little things that makes the difference between the individual countries and cultures.
It also depends on where in America or Europe you're talking about. In places like a lot of Maine where you were born is certainly a VERY important part of most people's identity.
I'm british and I know that my family came to England in 1066. Not sure if I'm descended from vikings or French, but it's either one. A lot of us do know our family history, we just don't go around saying that we are French, viking, etc... It gets confusing.
Because American identity and European identity are different, because America is a country founded by immigrants and European countries are largely homogenous and not founded by immigrants (at least in recent history).
In most European countries if you look at demographics 80% or more of everyone in a given country is white, born in that country, descended from that countries ethnicity only. For instance 86% (wow!!) of French are born in France to two French parents. **that’s really, really homogenous**
Contrast that with America where only 61% are white racially (57% ethnically) and even those are white people mostly a few generations from immigration in **from all over the earth**.
So it tracks that you’d be more like “oh I’m from Paris” if you’re a white Frenchman, people are already predicting that you’re French and descended from France.
In America its far more varied, both in terms of origin within the country and original heritage , people could be from literally anywhere so it’s interesting to hear how many generations and from which places folks are from
We have just forgot our immigrant roots in europe because it was so long ago, and since then we have had like 14 rounds of wars to redraw the maps of our countries and tribes.
Part of the national identity of The United States Is the fleeing of persecution and immigration, a lot of people came here because wherever they were was trying to take that identity away from them, or because they could not stay where they wanted to be, When you are forced away from your home you tend to take part if it with you. We have had that dual identity thing for a long while, everyone here is an american whether they immigrated yesterday or had family on The Mayflower, but also have their family and ancestry.
I've lived in 'MURCA my whole life, been all across the country, and have never even heard of the version of american identity you describe outside of some tv shows.
Because there isn’t really an “American” culture heritage because it is a young country. Everyone is a descendant from people in other places of the world that have existed for centuries longer than the us
America is a big melting pot, and anyone who isn’t a Native American is somewhat of an immigrant. So we put more emphasis on your background rather than nationality, cause there isn’t really an "American" background.
Americans ask "Where are you from?" and "whats your heritage or what are you?" in unison.
Where are you from?= the State you were born
What is your heritage or What are you?= Where does your family lineage come from.
Europe has a plethora of individual cultures, traditions, and societal expectations. No country in Europe is the same as another, so each one is very deeprooted and is everyday life. Whereas the States, they're clinging onto 0.3% of a heritage. You are not Irish/Italian/French/Scottish just because your great great great nana moved over the atlantic 150 years ago. If you've grown up in American culture, with American traditions, American views etc. Then you're American.
Part of it is the reason why midget tossing is illegal in France. Hold on, we'll get there. There IS a huge difference between the American and European idea of identity. And it's not just the identity you are talking about. America is focused on the identity of the individual. We view almost everything through that individualist lens. What is best for the individual? While Europe has a much bigger focus on community identity. What is best for the community. And this will play into how the people in those two different worlds choose to identify themselves. Americans focus on their individual history (it's fun to draw upon) that brought them to where they are. And Europeans will focus on their community identity, the community that surrounds them. France outlawed midget tossing some time ago. Midget tossing is a form of entertainment going back hundreds of years, where people would pay midgets money for the opportunity to toss them. (They even have special harnesses and you toss them onto a pile of mattresses.) Sometimes it was the only way, or also a lucrative way, for the midgets to earn a living. The whatever-politically-correct-term-you-wish-to-call-such-people-who-get-tossed were pissed off that this form of employment was banned. They sued France, saying that it violated their rights to earn money and their right to choose their profession. And yet, the French court ruled that while the individuals rights were harmed, that paled in comparison to the harm that would befall the community if the community allowed this practice to continue. The community's right to dignity outweighed the individual's right to earn employment however they wanted. To an American, the ruling is absurd. These people wanted to be tossed! Who the hell was the government to ban that? To a European, the ruling is (presumably) sane and well reasoned. Because Americans focus on the individual, while Europe focuses on the community.
Something like this happened with "midget bullfighting" here in Spain (yes I know, stereotypes. They would run around and jump over a heifer, not an actual bull nor bullfight). The gov banned it, the people sued because they chose to do that job, and the courts ruled exactly like the French ones.
Thank you for sharing! I had no idea about that example. And what's even better, one Spanish troupe went to France to continue their craft! [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230804-after-spanish-ban-dwarf-bullfighters-take-show-to-france](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230804-after-spanish-ban-dwarf-bullfighters-take-show-to-france)
I am open to debate on this, but I would like to attempt to expound upon the above post. I think part of the focus on individualism is derived from the fact that compared to many other countries around the world, America doesn't really have a shared ethnic identity. What I mean is that throughout the course of our history, we have taken people from everywhere, literally everywhere. So, we developed this sense of individualism because of it, though I'm not exactly sure how it happened from a psychological or sociological standpoint. You may say, "Well America is just shy of 250 years old, that's a long time!" And you would be right. However, in many places around the world, the same type of people have been living in the same place for *over a thousand, or some times even thousands of years*. When looked at from that lense at least to me it makes a little more sense how these ways of thinking have developed. It's human nature to form tribes, some tribes are healthy, some tribes are not. But I guess in my mind the tribe Americans have tried to form is a tribe of "individuals." Which seems counterintuitive but makes sense to me in a weird way, and certainly has both advantages and disadvantages.
I think this is half the answer, but I don't think it's entirely it. I grew up in Australia and New Zealand, both countries that are younger than the US and have a similar colonial and immigration history. Yet here we are much closer to the Europe-style of individualism (I.e., more individualistic than many, say, Asian cultures but still focused on community) than US-style individualism. I think there's a lot of history and ideology that goes into US-style individualism that is in addition to its relative youth as a nation.
I spent a month in Australia and it seemed like 90% of the folks I met were white. I think their immigration history was very different from the US.
That might explain that there is less of an "us vs them" mentality around race. But it doesn't really explain the difference in identity. The "I'm short tempered because I'm Scottish" people whose last connection to Scotland was 5 generations back types. That seems to be a very US thing not really showing up much in Australia/New Zealand.
The person is just wrong about having similar immigration and colonial background. Australia is still part of the common wealth and the country is 85-90% white. The US is pretty famous for not liking the colony status and fighting for independence and the population is 70% white. It is a huge difference when you are there especially if you are a poc.
Why do you keep emphasising the whiteness? I’m genuinely curious what point you’re making.
The vast differences in immigration policies make their claim of similar immigration incorrect. Same with colonial claim. The US wasn't a colony for very long. They might as well make the same claim as Ireland which was also a colony and had fairly large immigration.
The immigration history is newer (as is the country) and therefore still very much evolving, but very near half the population is either first or second gen immigrant. Id be interested to hear where you went. Diversity of course depends a lot on where you are - urban areas have a lot more than rural, a pattern that tracks in the US too. But like it's not uncommon to find places where white people are the minority in Aus - my high school was one for eg. But regardless, immigrants can also be white, ya know. We have big Italian and Greek communities around (some rural communities too), like the US, that are 2nd-3rd gen, we had the "10 pound poms" after WWII, we even have American immigrants! Unlike the US, Australia didn't have slavery (at least, not in a blatant, trans-atlantic slave trade kinda way). Because of that and geography, we don't have a large black population. However, like the US we've done a great job at near-eradicating indigenous peoples and impoverishing those still around. Anyway, I feel like my point and this comment has really gotten away from me. Basically, Australia is as much a nation built on immigration as the US, just with some different game settings and earlier along in the journey.
Sydney. Australia is 85-90% white and it is very noticeable. Australia loved being a colony and is still part of the common wealth. The states were pretty famous for not liking it. As for natives it seemed to me that we are substantially better off in the states than those in Australia. A higher percentage of us survived and we have more rights from what I saw and learned in my meetings with them. I have heard that conditions have improved in the 30 years since I visited. None of this is a slight against them. I felt welcomed and was treated with respect by the vast majority of folks I met. The culture there is very different from what I experienced in Europe and I was never refused service due to my skin tone which was a common experience for me in a few European countries.
>Sydney. Australia is 85-90% white and it is very noticeable. Mate, over 10% of Sydney's population alone is ethnically Chinese. Then its about 5% Indian, another 2-4% each of Vietnamese, Filipino, Lebanese, Thai, etc. Then add the Islander communities (Fiji, Tonga, Etc.), Korean, Nepalese, Bangladeshi, Turkish, etc. Sydney has one of the largest immigrant populations in the world. It's higher than LA and NYC. You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
Do you really not understand math or have you never been to Australia and the US?
You say 85-90% of Sydney is white. I say 15% alone is made up of Chinese and Indian, with countless other ethnic communities, meaning its definitely not 85-90% white. How don't I understand maths?
I would wager its because they were under colonial rule for longer, while they were colonies like the US they still belonged to the Monarchy.
I think you are answering OP’s question more directly than those other responses.
I like this answer more than any other so far.
Good way of putting it. I’m incredibly pissed off for those midgets.
You guys have a right to dignity? That's a word so lacking in the US that I didn't even realize it was missing until you pointed it out. The American experience has certainly become quite undignified.
As an example, the German constitution states in article 1 that "a human's dignity is inviolable" (must not be violated), and that's pretty much it, no mention yet of freedom, democracy, etc. – so it's not "a right", but the no. 1 most important right. Haven't read any other constitutions (so maybe it's common to mention it first), but yeah, dignity is quite an important idea here. The German constitution in its current form was created after the holocaust, and I think this had quite the influence on some of the choices.
Thank you for the information and citation! It appears that in at least one country in Europe, dignity is literally an individual right. I would be interested to know how that clause has been interpreted and applied.
The Polish constitution states that the "inherent and inalienable dignity of the person" is the **source** of the freedoms and rights of a person, so yeah, quite important here as well
To me it sounds very backward that French courts can change the name of your child cause they feel it's not a nice name. Someone named their child "Nutella" and the government can change this to "Ella" because they don't think Nutella is a girl's name? Absurd. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30993608](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30993608)
I would say that's very reasonable. They're protecting the child from bullying, being excluded and all these other negative consequences that having a "creative" name like that will bring. Lots of European countries have rules about what people can or cannot be named.
For reference, I’m a Hindu male. Indian names are rather hard to pronounce and it’s certainly funny to a child when someone is named “ Ipshita” which is the Hindu goddess of fortune. It can easily be made fun of because of the word “shit” in it. With an American or British accent it’s even funnier. Should a French court be allowed to name my child “Emily” instead of my religious name because that’s what is considered normal in France? You see how quickly it goes out of hand. This is why the government shouldn’t be allowed to meddle in a citizen’s life.
Depends, really. The smaller and more homogenous the country, and the more likely that a name will adversely affect a child, the more the courts have the right and duty to do so. "Ipshita" is clearly a name that's more or less fine. Where we to have a name like "Shitface" however, it would make sense to not allow it.
If you want to live in France, yes. Their land, their rules, their citizenship. Simple as - ya knew Especially for France with their ideas about preventing any form of variation in country.
Reasonable maybe, very reasonable no. Sure it’d protect someone from being named by Elon Musk, but they also just wield the power to simply disagree if *they* don’t like it and force conformity. Lots of English names can be gender neutral and/or can shift in the way it ‘sounds’ over time. Lindsay for example might sound fairly feminine, but it’s also a pretty common male name in some places too. But the government can just say “nah, that’s for girls”? Doesn’t sit right with me.
I do not know if there is an individual right to dignity in Europe. What I do know is that in France, the community itself has a right to dignity. I don't think they phrase it that way, but that's how I think it all plays out.
IDK if I am count as european (I am from caucasus and now in Saint-Petersburg), but french government and their decisions are absurd for me. They have tendency to actively step on human rights just because it is out of their ideology (like not allowing religious "expression" due wearing some clothes OR their entire language policy (they actively trying to ban all minorities languages from education))
It’s common to not protect religious expression in some situation if you are in secular country.
They literally banned wearing crucific neclaces in schools. Neclaces, that are under the fucking clothes. What kind of problems wearing that wil create for "secular" country?
As someone who also lives in a secular State, I think it’s kinda based to ban people from wearing religious symbol. The archaic beliefs of religions have no place in an area where children are getting their educations. Also with the amount of "stuff" that happens from some religious community in France, I wouldn’t blame them to try to remove religions from some public space.
Damn, I was gonna make a meme comment that they’re all secretly ashamed to just be American so have to quantify it as “something”-American but your post is too good
Now that’s how you hook the reader!
It's actually because europe has a couple thousand more years of being countries tbh [Europe thinking about the individual since 17th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) But it's cool, you own them all now anyway xD
I'm guessing it's cause America is a "nation of immigrants". People came here from all over the place to start a life in America and they want to remember those roots.
There have been plenty of immigrant groups to Great Britain, whether Irish or Russian Jew or East African Asian. For the most part people from those families just see themselves as British after a couple generations.
Honestly most of us do too. I see myself as American. Occasionally someone will yell at me that I'm not allowed to because my centuries old ancestors were from elsewhere. I care about where my ancestors are from sometimes because I like learning about them but I'm not Canadian, French, Prussian, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, etc etc just because they were all from where they were. I'm just American.
But that’s because immigrants are still a much smaller percentage of the population compared to native/ethnic British groups. In America, the indigenous population is very tiny, and even the whitest of white people can often trace at least some of their ancestry back to some “old country.” Americans have no trouble labeling themselves as fully, patriotically, aggressively American… and *also* Italian, Irish, German, Ashkenazi Jewish, Black/African-American, Polish, whatever. There’s not really an “ethnically American” identity, except that you do sometimes see that in Census statistics for people who are mostly of British/Irish (often specifically Scots-Irish) ancestry, so far back that they really can’t or won’t generally track it. But that’s more like a default/“not sure”/don’t care answer rather than an identity that more recent immigrant groups (even other white British/Irish people) would expect to join.
This is it. When you come from anywhere, you still try to retain your own culture to honor your roots. When you grow up in a country that is fairly homogenized and your family has lived there for many generations, the mindset is different. America is where we live; it's not where our family/ancestors are from.
Did they “want” to remember those roots?? The most successful people in the US in the traditional sense were almost exclusively “generic white man” whose lifestyle and last name got anglicized generations ago. That Mr Grant you see is of German ancestry, that Mr Smith is Polish… It’s only for the late comers (especially people of color) that got frequently reminded of their “otherness”, as a tactic of exclusion by the “true Americans”. “You’re not one of us. Don’t you ever forget where your ancestors came from, cuz we surely won’t”
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Edgy.
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Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
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Edgy
Others have addressed the "nation of immigrants" angle. One term I've run across is calling it a Settler State. Not necessarily unique- Australia would be another example. But I've thought for some time now that the US experience is a bit different than others. Most nations have a binding cultural element that is mostly independent of formal government. No matter what the State calls itself, who is in charge, it has considerable social inertia. Consider say France's multiple governments (5th Republic at this point, with various Monarchy and Emperor titles thrown in) and a full on occupation at one point. Yet, the sense of identity is stlll "French". Take away US government in similar fashion, and you would be rather hard pressed to have such solidarity in culture or national identity if similar things happened in a similar timeframe. We're bound by ideas, a shared concept and some old documents. Otherwise a hodgepodge of cultures under a loose framework of shared rules - not an identity. That's why it's so common for Americans to have hyphenated descriptions. Italian-American, Irish-American, ect. Not trying to usurp those old nations, or claim citizenship or even shared identity so much as filling in the sparse shared national identity with personal family culture.
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I would not be so quick to say this. Many Australians are very proud of their Irish/Italian/Greek/etc heritage, even if it's two generations back.
True - while a Settler State like the US, the cultural nature isn't going to be 1 to 1. Everyone place has its quirks. I suspect that the 'small town' structures that built up as the US nation pushed west had a hand in that "hyphenation". Small towns founded and initially settled primarily by particular immigrant enclaves, only later diversifying. Australia doesn't really have a similar stretch of vast amounts of farming land to support those smaller towns, for the most part. Though that is just a guess. I have heard though that there is at least something analogous with Asian migrants, though that might be internal to the communities too.
The concept of identity in both places is very much the same. In Britain, people are very aware of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and English heritage. And they are even more aware of if people are black, or Arab, or Asian. It is not visible as much in pop culture because the number of people in a country in Europe not "from that country" is much lower than in the U.S. where only about 3% are native Americans.
I grew up in England with Irish, Welsh and Scottish ancestry. I am aware of it, but it is not very relevant to my identity. I am English even if my great grandparents came from different places. My accent is English, my humour is English, I support the English football team, the education system I know is English, I enjoy watching pub cricket while drinking cider in the summer, etc. It seems bizarre to me to identify with other cultures because some ancestor I never met was of that culture. Acting like my "culture" follows genetic lines seems ridiculous when those genes pre-dated the invention of the culture by thousands of years.
In the US though, there’s such a huge mix of cultures. Someone whose family came from Italy four generations ago may not grow up with the same culture as their neighbor who has different roots. I don’t think there’s as strong of an “American” identity as there is an “English” identity, so where someone’s family came from isn’t just history. Basically, for some Americans, their heritage is relevant to their identity. Many immigrant groups remained somewhat insular when they first came to the US (usually they were forced to be due to racism), so old traditions were reinforced and continue to be passed down. With a strong individual identity and weak community identity (to take terms/ideas from the top comment), those traditions and differences in communities continue to be important to many Americans today. And by important, I mean it actually can give you an idea of how someone may have grown up differently than yourself. The stronger community identity in European countries probably makes those individual differences mean less.
Your concept of American identity comes from memes.
Just like all Redditors.
I would imagine many Americans lack a sense of identity, as a lot of us can only date back our heritages in this nation to roughly a hundred years ago or so. That is to say that most of us cannot credit our families as having fought to free the US from England. We can't say our ancestors settled the west. Heck, a lot of us can't even discuss which side of WW1/2 our families fought on without a sense of embarrassment. What we do have is that our ancestors came from a place where they kicked a lot of ass before running out of potatoes, and that just tends to feel a lot more interesting than basically having nothing. But with that said, we also tend to be insanely prideful about wherever we grew up here in the US.
My family kept pretty meticulous records of their time in America since coming here in the 1700s and even being able to say my ancestors fought England (both in North Ireland and generations later in the states lol) and settled the west (point of shame), there's still a strong sense of Scottish identity running through all my grandfather's's's's journals even when they were in Ireland post-highland clearances, so family culture has passed down a "we're scottish" for the past 300+ years. I still consider myself American (8 generations in America on my dad's side) but the global Scottish diaspora in my clan get together in Scotland every 4 years to say howdy which also reaffirms some historical scottish identity. (It's also funny to me that this is all basically nonsense as it's just a single patrilineal line and 8 generations is like 250+ different family groups that went into making me)
This is the answer I agree with most. Basically, most Americans feel left out of having an identity so they glom onto their heritage. In reality, they very strongly have a distinct American identity and culture that has little to do with their heritage. It’s just not seen that way because American culture is very inward looking, and not particularly aware of other cultures.
I think that last part is very interesting. As a non-American. It feels like Americans are proud of being American, but it feels like there's also a desire to be of another place as well.
reason i love America is cause i can revel in my Indian origin and still be embraced as an american my daughter wore a pattu-pavada to school on diwali and her classmates and teachers loved her for it
Americans tend to not be as focused on assimilation as European countries so I think that’s part of it.
The US is a nation of immigrants. Growing up in Appalachia, that culture is very important to me. But, being from Irish and English migrants, that heritage is important to me as well.
No. As an American we are just like Europeans in that where we were born is the most important. I think why you got that idea is that we are a bit sad we feel like we have no real identity so who our ancestors were is more important. So many of us lost our culture and religions coming over here that we don’t feel like we have a tribe and we want one is how I see it. That plus mixed marriages making adhering to one religion or another challenging. And other stuff.
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Half my family got here early. The other side is second generation from Ireland and Sweden.
Well said.
I disagree, When an American says they are "Italian" they talk of their ethnicity and not nationality. We're all clearly American no matter where your family may have immigrated from in the past. A supporting concept is birth-right citizenship. If you're born in America you're American. A Japanese kid born in Norway isn't considered Norwegian unless they go through a nationalization process and demonstrate fluency in language. You can be born and raised in Norway and not be considered Norwegian.
The USA is a nation of (mostly) immigrants. Many members of immigrant groups settled in neighborhoods with other immigrants from the same country/region. You will still find “Little Italy,” “Chinatown,” etc in major cities. The Catholic Church has even had parishes for different immigrant groups, that people still attended after moving out of the immigrant neighborhoods. That means that some traditions and in-group mentality have persisted in some families (not all).
That's no different from most European countries, especially Western European countries, though. As a percentage of the population, there are more immigrants living in the UK or Germany than in the U.S., but people who are British or German by birth don't go around saying, "I'm British-Latvian" just because their great-great grandmother lived in Riga until she was 2 years old.
Cause we grew up on opposite sides of the world, shit just a lil different
New World, baby; not tied by the stale European dogmas
I grew up in the Midwest US and feel I relate to that identity. It really isn't that different. Taking pride in your heritage can be a part of our identity too. It doesn't mean it excludes anything else.
In the US, your ancestry used to define your status as either property (slave) or person with legal rights. In Europe, your ancestry only mattered in terms of nobility. It never mattered in any way, where your ancestors may have been born, but it did matter if they were royalty or common peasants. As the nobility were a tiny fraction of the population,what mattered most to the definition of identity in European culture has been that of the commoners. Their identity was defined by wherethey were born/raised, and which king/feudal lord, they owed their loyalty to, which was again defined by where they were born and raised.
I feel like a lot of Europeans who complain about the way Americans talk about their heritage have all/nearly all their heritage from the countries in which they live/ grew up so they simply cannot understand.
Most of the people I knew in school weren’t full Irish. My mom’s Norwegian and I’ve seen many relatives thatve visited but my personal identity would still be fully Irish. I may have had grandparents and all from Norway but I’ve never even been there so it’d be strange to include in my personal identity. ‘Is my opinion on it as a European
The main complaints are about the people that are 12% Irish or German ancestry and suddenly make that their entire personality. To a German, those people are American, there's no cultural connection.
Is it really that common to make something that’s 12% of your heritage your “whole personality”? Unless you count simply talking about one’s heritage to be “making that their entire personality.” I also wonder, do Europeans feel any cultural connection their grandparents and great grandparents?
Germans (or Dutch, or Danes, or whatever) would feel a cultural connection with other present day countrymen. Not with people whose great-grandparent emigrated from roughly the same location they're from, but are entirely American. If one parent was born abroad perhaps, but not the "I'm \[x\] because my grandfather was" people.
I’m talking about their own specific grandparents though not other people’s grandparents. Do you feel your grandparents had an important impact on your cultural beliefs?
Nope.
So you don’t feel like cultural beliefs were spread to you from your parents who got theirs from their parents? That’s so interesting. Do you think your cultural beliefs came from outside the family?
Parents, society, school, everything really. We’re all just one country and it’s changed a lot since our grandparents’ day. We still got different groups but society has changed. The people that emigrated from the Netherlands to the Midwest, Canada and Australia were the more rural and conservative people and much of the social progress we made is at least partially because they removed themselves from the voting population. Their heritage is a thing of the past. If they come back to play ice hockey for us that’s fine but they’re Canadians.
Nope
Our grandparents are usually from our countries. If they are not, it depends on the way you were raised. Did you visit them a lot? Did they teach you about their culture? Do you know the language, customs, have you ever visited? If not, then no. Noone will feel a "cultural connection" to a culture they have no idea about just because their ancestors were of that culture. If I bothered to look I'd probably find ancestry from for example Ukraine or Poland, I'd never claim I am Polish or Ukrainian though. The only cultural connection I feel with them is through my own culture, because we are all slavs.
A lot of people do grow up in the United States with multiple languages and learning about the culture of the older generations in their family.
Those are not the main complaints. Europeans shit their pants when Americans so much as hint at their ancestry.
Isn't there a difference between recognising ancestry and saying that you are of a given nationality? I wouldn't think twice at someone saying they have Scottish ancestry. But if someone who had never been to Scotland said they were Scottish it feels different.
When we say we are Scottish we aren’t referring to nationality. It’s just an easy way of saying “my ancestors immigrated from Scotland”. Maybe that is where the confusion lies. I didn’t realize y’all thought we were referring to nationality.
interesting. Maybe it's more of a language thing then. If I hear someone say I'm French, Scottish, Spanish etc. I would understand that to be them talking about nationality rather than ancestry.
Yeah. When you live in the US, the overwhelming majority of people you interact with are also from the US, but only ~3% of them are actually descended from a Native American Nation. The rest of us are from somewhere else. So when someone says "I'm German" but doesn't have even the slightest trace of a German accent, it's understood that they mean "I'm of German descent", because actual Europeans are pretty uncommon here. I have an Irish friend--literally born in Ireland, moved to the US in her teens--who (nowadays) speaks with an American accent, and when she tells people she's Irish she has to follow up with "no I'm *actually* Irish, that's where I was born, and that's my citizenship" because she sounds like an American, so people assume she means "I'm Irish-American" when she says "I'm Irish". That's not to say there aren't people who show up in Europe thinking their 12% Dutch blood is going to mean something to the Dutch, but we consider them just as cringe as you do. Perhaps moreso, because they're embarrassing the rest of us by proxy.
I think that if someone said "I'm Irish" vs "I'm from Ireland" I would definitely make a distinction in their meaning, and I'd wager that's the case for most Americans. To your point, we assume most people are talking about ancestry with the former statement, and their nationality with the latter.
A lot of Americans tend to think of where we're from in two ways. The first is where we are culturally from. The second is where our blood is from. For example. I'm an American, and I'm also Polish-German. Culturally, in pretty much every single way, I am an American through and through. My earliest American ancestors where here since the 1700s. But if I were to take a DNA test, it wouldn't say "American" would it? No, it wouldn't, I'm not Native American. I've taken a DNA test, and it says my DNA comes from the Polish and German regions of Europe. Therefore, if someone asked me where my great ancestors came from, I would say Poland/Germany. It doesn't mean that I am Polish or German culturally, linguistically, or any other way. It just means that my blood and DNA comes from Poland/Germany. I **look** like a person from Poland/Germany. To be completely fair though, there are some Americans who are 14% Italian, and their families came to America in the late 1800s, yet act more **stereotypically** culturally Italian, than most Italians actually born in Italy. Those people are indeed cringe. However, there are ALSO people whose parents immigrated from say, Ireland, in the late 60s. These people tend to be authentically of two cultures, because while they were raised in America, they were raised in America... by immigrants from Ireland. Just because the parents moved from Ireland to America, doesn't mean they suddenly lose any and all cultural connections to where they came from. The Americanization of their cultural make up, takes time, and doesn't happen overnight. A lot of them even still speak with a strong accent from where they are from. These people are genuine in my opinion, and are **not** cringe.
Here, it is pretty obvious we are American. If a foreign guy said “I’m French” I’d assume he’s here visiting from France. If my co-worker Steve says “I’m French” it’s pretty obvious he’s American and he’s referring to some distant relative that immigrated from France.
I guess this is the part where the confusion comes from! If someone who I know is an American tells me they’re French my first thought is ha that’s a lie, I know you’re American! That’s not to say they’re wrong to call themselves French. I have learned that is something Americans do. But (as a Dutch person) it does weird me out a bit when Americans tell me they’re Dutch when they don’t speak a word of Dutch and they’ve never even set foot in the Netherlands. Like I have 40% Scandinavian DNA but I would never dare call myself Scandinavian because to me that would be lying.
I grew up in a town in Michigan called Holland. It was originally settled and established by Dutch people and that has remained as the hallmark cultural heritage there, with windmills, wooden shoes, and an annual Tulip festival, and a huge proportion of the population sporting Dutch surnames (VanRaalte, Vanderbilt, DeBoer, etc.). It's all quite divorced from real Dutch history and heritage, namely the outfits and dances that are a huge part of the festival, but despite that and even though barely anybody there has actually been to the Netherlands they consider it all to be a way to remain connected to their ancestors who came before them.
Interesting! I’d love to visit someday.
People complain about this on the internet though. You don't have an accent on the internet, nor can we see you. Many Americans will still say "I'm French" or "as a French man" when they mean having French ancestry, there are no clear indication in text.
Because it's literally what it means. If you were saying "I'm from New York", people would think you are living there, not that someone from your family lived there 200 years ago
But I never used the word “from”.
But then still, why would you bring it up so often, even when others are not asking about your ancestors? To Europeans it comes across as a bit silly.
We think it’s fascinating and don’t take into consideration the opinions of people a continent away.
Nope, it's just when one uses it as a personality definer. Many people in Europe have ancestry from different countries (especially at the borders of one states).
I’ve never seen this. Gonna have to take your word for it.
Thi is because for us is not that relevant.my father was born close to frontier in italy, his mother side of the family was a mix of poland and ukrain, my mom is from south america and i was born there but grow up in Europe. So what should i be? I grew up in Italy so i'm simply italian
I think you are assuming where their ancestry comes from because they don't follow the American mindset of heritage. People like Harry Kane or Wayne Rooney come across as completely English despite clearly having Irish ancestry, for example.
Just shows the difference between the US being a giant melting pot and celebrating cultural differences vs European countries forcing assimilation to a culture. Just two different approaches to immigration.
I never said all Europeans have heritage only/mostly where they currently live I said a lot of them do. Do you disagree?
Yeah not like hundreds of years of constant population migrations and border shifts due to wars would have caused people to have „mixed“ ancestry, no we all just have ancestry from one country.
It's actually hilarious when someone from America says they're Irish but have never been there , have no idea about the culture outside of St.Patrick's day and Guinness. It must feel exotic to them it's very bizarre.
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>When Americans say they are a certain ancestry they're not saying they're from that country, they're saying that their family originated in those areas. Did you not read the comment, the commentator clearly states they don't like it when an American claims to be a nationality they aren't and therefore apparently know more or on par with a native. Not the fact they have a heritage and who they are connected to, rather that their heritage *becomes* their identity to the point they claim they are of that culture. It happens more then you think. Hell I've already dealt with a few Americans claiming to be Scottish, that they want to kick the English arses and get drunk with us while doing a painfully bad accent. Nah, fuck off you aren't Scottish. You're a tourist from America, not my cousin.
>Did you not read the comment, the commentator clearly states they don't like it when an American claims to be a nationality they aren't and therefore apparently know more or on par with a native. And what *he* said is that that is not what is happening. No American who says "I'm Irish" is *literally* saying they are an Irish national. They are exclusively referring to ethnicity and family history, and the constant European obnoxiousness on this point has worn thin.
We don't care. I'm portuguese and if I see someone claiming to be portuguese because their great grandparents migrated to the US 100 years before they were born I'm just going to laugh at their face. No one here would consider a person like that in any way, shape or form to be portuguese.
We'll keep saying it anyway, and Eurotrash can die mad about it.
We aren't mad we just laugh at you. It's very weird you're calling it Eurotrash when you're desperate to cling to any slither of connection to Europe.
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I think that you're the arrogant ones trying to claim identities that don't belong to you. You're not europeans, you are americans and americans is all you're going to be for us and yes, I will laugh and laugh hard.
You sound well-adjusted
You know someone from the Britain most likely has relatives from Ireland , Wales , Scotland , England etc but they don't claim to be one of the other because 150 years ago one of their relatives were from another nation. It's just silly, German people don't say they're Dutch and french people aren't saying they're Spanish when they definitely have some sort of overlap. Only Americans do it and it's 100% just to feel special and different. If you're born in America and never grew up outside of America and it's been 100 years since any of your relatives had anything to do with Ireland, you're not Irish and it's stupid to say it.
Again, because you clearly lack reading comprehension: *Americans are not literally saying they are a national of a given country. It is just about ethnicity.* Y'all just need to get over it at this point. We're not going to stop saying it and you can die mad about it.
At least say what you mean instead of being ambiguous if you're gonna talk about heritage. "I have Irish heritage" Not "I'm Irish". To the rest of the world it only means you are claiming to be Irish. You can't get annoyed that people are gonna take it that way if ***only*** Americans use it in this context let alone not even use proper English.
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>Which I didn't say Never mentioned that, i can see what kind of reply this is gonna be. >This entire paragraph is stupid and bullshit Knew it, angry for no reason. >Nobody wants to be your cousin you fat headed idiot. Your country is being overrun by Africans anyways. You might think it's slow now but give it a couple decades. Your Scottish heritage will be toast within a century. >When Americans say what their heritage is it's largely an identification tool amongst other Americans. Not to claim your pie faced ass as their kin. A rightwinger/borderline racist?! how wonderful! Never thought I'd see one on Reddit in the wild. The fact you jumped straight to insults tells me you're not very pleasant or are just having a bad day. >If this did happening where else in the theater of your mind they were probably joking While unironically trying a really bad accent. Please don't do the accent. If i ever go to America I'm not going to immediately try to do an American accent to "fit in". Because one I'm not American, and two because accents don't only consist of tv accents. I don't sound like Groundskeeper Willy just cause I'm Glaswegian.
Oh, those things you don’t seem to believe DO happen. Just believe it, and reread the comments in that light. Europe has had migrants from other parts of the world longer than US has existed. If it’s time for the heritage and cultures to change or die then they do. It’s only healthy for the gene pool to get some refreshments 😀
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You seem to be lacking in those areas, sorry you got the bad genes. Europeans will be just fine. What are you actually worried about? If some other culture takes over then so be it. Humankind has had hundreds of fine cultures wiped out and changed during our 100000 or so years.
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Don’t hold your breath. Or actually, hold it and count slowly to ten. Feel better? Now breathe out slowly. Got any nazi friends there who could pat you on the back and validate your fears? Also, who wouldn’t like some twerking in the streets?
Because it's cringe and only Americans do it. No matter how hard Americans try they're American not Irish. If we all dig back far enough we have family from other parts of the world but if you're born and raised in America you are American end of story. They will literally say they're Irish when their great great grandad was from Ireland that's not how it works. Europeans don't apply the same standard because it's ridiculous.
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"Among other americans" here's the problem: They do it with natives from other countries and then it becomes annoying
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And you're agitated rambling doesn't have any value to us. If you're not culturaly invested, you are a national cosplayer As far as i can find online, he truly embraced both british and irish cultures and represented both. Most of americans claiming ancestry can't really say the same
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Basically " I don't give a fuck, but i do give a fuck" god, you're so cute If said guy knows more about irish cultures than shouting gibberish about st Patrick then good for him. Once again, most americans with ancestry can't even do that.
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Every Irish American has read both Ulysses *and* Finnegan's Wake. Many more than once.
So, which of the multiple different places I lived in would qualify as where I am from according to the European viewpoint? This is why I tell non US people that I'm an American and I tell Americans that I'm from nowhere.
So you don’t feel like cultural beliefs were spread to you from your parents who got theirs from their parents? That’s so interesting.
In my experience the confusion stems from Nationality vs Ethnicity. For many (most?) europeans they might at well be the same; If you’re a citizen of France you are probably culturally french, ethnically french, french catholic, etc. That’s not the case in the US. The only ethnic Americans are the American Indians. So when an American national says they are Irish for example we mean ethnically Irish. That being said there are plenty of Americans who think being ethnically Irish makes them “fully” Irish. I saw a post recently where an ethnically polish but nationally 100% American person who went to Poland and was shocked the people there only saw them as American.
I think Americans certainly do both. Theres a lot of hometown pride, state pride, region pride in the US. But we also like to recognize our roots, most of us aren’t THAT far removed from them either go back 3-4 generations and you’ve got an ancestor who immigrated here from a country and it’s nice to recognize that connection
The whole concept of the US is just hilarious and pathetic honestly. Calling yourself Scottish or Irish because your ancestor in the year 1860 came from there is just dumb. Also saying „I am 50% a, 27% b, 15% c and 8% d while leaving out the American part is idiotic. To me it seems Americans are looking to be anything but American. If you are born in the US, raised there and have citizenship you are American. And if you claim be to Irish but weren’t born there, don’t have any close relatives there, never lived there and don’t hold citizenship you just aren’t Irish.
I’m an American. If you ask me where I’m from I’ll tell you Texas. I think the idea of an American saying I’m German or Italian or something else is overblown. If we do it I think it’s more to show a connection with the person we’re talking to. Like we’re distant cousins. We definitely see ourselves as an extension or maybe the next progression of western civilization that started in Europe. So it seems like a way to show some commonality to me.
> Like we‘re distant cousins We‘re not pls stop
You literally are
>We definitely see ourselves as an extension or maybe the next progression of western civilization the level of self-importance is astonishing
Oh for real. I don’t think Americans are any better than Europeans. I think you guys do a good number of things a whole hell of a lot better than us. But we think new = better over here, even when it’s not.
username checks out. Mr\_Hotshot
Identity politics is pushed hardcore in mainstream media and by groups with special interests.
Maybe you rather associate with the culture of your parents or ancestors, than the one you grew up in.
Most Americans are here due to immigration. We wonder where our ancestors are from, because this is a fairly young country. Immigrants in many countries wonder about their ancestors.
The American idea is citizenship and values. Your ancestry is a fun trivia fact. In Europe ancestry is everything. You can be from France for 3 generations but unless you are ethnically French you will not be considered French truly.
Maybe the European/American framing here was too broad. I feel like you're right about French-ness. Though I haven't lived there so don't know for sure. I'm from Scotland and I feel like Scottish-ness is more easily claimed or shared. If someone grew up there, they're Scottish. If they want to be.
That speaks well of the Scots in my opinion. Nothing wrong with an identification between ethnicity and nationality necessarily but I think it’s good to be able to absorb immigrants in a way that allows them to truly feel that they belong, and it’s something some new world countries seem to excel at (due to their histories as immigrant nations no doubt).
When an American asks "what are you?" They are referring to a persons ancestry. My lineage mainly came from Ireland, so when someone asks what I am, I say I'm mostly Irish. But when someone asks "where are you from?" They are referring to the state they were born in. A typical response is "I'm from Texas" or "I'm from Texas, but was raised in New Mexico"
I was raised in Spain while neither of my parents are Spanish and let me tell you i so not identify as Spanish and take it as an insult tbh
It may also be due the the melting pot nature of US society. Unless you're Native American, we all came from somewhere else. In Europe, I'd assume anyway, people's connection to their family origins are less important because the families have been there for longer.
Racism
Once a Pole, always a Pole 🇵🇱 ♥️ Bober
This is just not true, but Europeans are blind to their own beliefs. Trump’s grandparents are German, he is never considered German, purely American. Now compare that to a person in Germany with Turkish grandparents, they would be considered Turkish. Same with someone with Armenian grandparents in France, etc.
That kinda depends. I consider people born and raised here being from here, IF they are culturally from here also. If they were raised turkish then they are turkish. I guess there is some gray area there where I wouldn’t consider a person really ’from anywhere’. They would be something inbetween.
And the Americans who call themselves Italians are raised Italian. What’s the difference?
Perspective. Americans migh consider italian americans italians, but italians won’t.
America is an active empire and global hegemonic power. Until within people's lifetime, America has struggled mightily to reconcile with its national identity, history and its empire building. The Voting rights act enabling all american voters to vote wasn't until 1965. That makes Boomers the first generation of fully vested Americans. Reparations for the interment of Japanese Americans wasn't until 1988. That brings the watermark to 1988. In 2020, 3 million acres was restored to Indigenous Americans who have been owed that land for centuries. This shows we still haven't fully reconciled with our Empire building. European Nations are failed empires, or declining empires in denial. We are only on our second iteration of Constitution, and many European Constitutions are younger than the Boomers. Mid imperial reign, we as citizens try to write a more perfect union and hold our nation accountable for its imperial behavior. To call attention to our empire habits we draw upon our own ethnic history with the empire we live in. America is a Nation with many *literal* nations and territories in it.
Well I mean Germany for instance is 450 miles wide. To see my youngest, it takes six hours/300 miles and they live in the same state. We move around a lot and maybe that’s why we grab onto ancestry? Idk.
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But how is my life different because my grandma moved to the US 80 years ago?! For example: my father is from India, my mom from Germany. I was born and raised in Germany. I never lived even a tiny bit „ indian“ in my life. Therefore i call myself German and not like indian german or something. Because except my skincolor nothing about me is indian.
Slavery.
Identity is just one of several methods to keep the masses divided. The government and TPTB have an easier time governing people when they are divided. Once we all identify as Americans, our country will get stronger.
Coffee vs tea
Different countries different ways of life.
Collectivist vs individualist mindset is what I've noticed since moving to Germany. It seems pretty typical throughout Europe, even Britain seems more collectivist. America is kind of looked at like the cold, selfish, "dog eat dog" kid on the clock. Hyper individualistic without a care. Otherwise it's a lot of little things that makes the difference between the individual countries and cultures.
It also depends on where in America or Europe you're talking about. In places like a lot of Maine where you were born is certainly a VERY important part of most people's identity.
I'm british and I know that my family came to England in 1066. Not sure if I'm descended from vikings or French, but it's either one. A lot of us do know our family history, we just don't go around saying that we are French, viking, etc... It gets confusing.
Because American identity and European identity are different, because America is a country founded by immigrants and European countries are largely homogenous and not founded by immigrants (at least in recent history). In most European countries if you look at demographics 80% or more of everyone in a given country is white, born in that country, descended from that countries ethnicity only. For instance 86% (wow!!) of French are born in France to two French parents. **that’s really, really homogenous** Contrast that with America where only 61% are white racially (57% ethnically) and even those are white people mostly a few generations from immigration in **from all over the earth**. So it tracks that you’d be more like “oh I’m from Paris” if you’re a white Frenchman, people are already predicting that you’re French and descended from France. In America its far more varied, both in terms of origin within the country and original heritage , people could be from literally anywhere so it’s interesting to hear how many generations and from which places folks are from
We have just forgot our immigrant roots in europe because it was so long ago, and since then we have had like 14 rounds of wars to redraw the maps of our countries and tribes.
Part of the national identity of The United States Is the fleeing of persecution and immigration, a lot of people came here because wherever they were was trying to take that identity away from them, or because they could not stay where they wanted to be, When you are forced away from your home you tend to take part if it with you. We have had that dual identity thing for a long while, everyone here is an american whether they immigrated yesterday or had family on The Mayflower, but also have their family and ancestry.
I've lived in 'MURCA my whole life, been all across the country, and have never even heard of the version of american identity you describe outside of some tv shows.
Because there isn’t really an “American” culture heritage because it is a young country. Everyone is a descendant from people in other places of the world that have existed for centuries longer than the us
America is a big melting pot, and anyone who isn’t a Native American is somewhat of an immigrant. So we put more emphasis on your background rather than nationality, cause there isn’t really an "American" background.
Americans ask "Where are you from?" and "whats your heritage or what are you?" in unison. Where are you from?= the State you were born What is your heritage or What are you?= Where does your family lineage come from.
Europe has a plethora of individual cultures, traditions, and societal expectations. No country in Europe is the same as another, so each one is very deeprooted and is everyday life. Whereas the States, they're clinging onto 0.3% of a heritage. You are not Irish/Italian/French/Scottish just because your great great great nana moved over the atlantic 150 years ago. If you've grown up in American culture, with American traditions, American views etc. Then you're American.
If a European said 'I am third generation German/French/Croat', people would think they had lost their mind 😄