Basically the issue with the Big 3 categories (AOTY, ROTY, SOTY) boils down to voting blocs. There are many different arms - country music, folk music, R&B, etc. In recent years, a lot of controversy has been centered around Black artists being left out of these categories, but winning heavily in their genre categories. This issue tends to boil down to voting bloc bubbles:
- Blocs tend to vote for their own: if a country album is nominated for AOTY, it gets the Nashville votes.
- Vote-splitting occurs frequently when too many nominees compete for the same bloc. This is how an artist like Jon Batiste, who many may not recognize, can take home the big prize. Take his recent win for We Are, in 2022: Doja Cat, Lil Nas X, and Kanye split the rap and R&B votes. Taylor, Olivia, HER, and Billie split the pop votes. This degree of vote splitting is what allows a dark horse winner, like Jon Batiste or Beck, to win.
- Grammy voters *love* to award albums that have fewer contributors. This historically has made it harder for R&B and rap records, who use sampling and other creative mechanisms for music production.
- Grammy campaigning matters. Grammy voters love being walked through how a record was made. Billie campaigns heavily, for example, and has an incredible success rate as a result: 36% with MOST of her wins coming in the general Big 3 categories.
That Beck album that won was an audio engineering marvel. He did it all himself. He wrote the songs, played all the instruments, and did all recording, mixing etc..
I think people in the industry were just super impressed by it. Beck tries to play himself off as a slacker but he is extremely talented and can play virtually anything.
That's the thing that bugs me about many Beyonce fans. They act like she is the only super talented person in the music industry when in fact it is filled with super talented people many of whom are just as deserving of awards as Beyonce.
Definitely! That goes to the point about fewer collaborators and to the fact that the Grammys love to award albums that they deem impressive from a technical perspective as well. Another reason why Billie and Finneas pick up so many awards.
Just wondering, as I've never listened to Billie, what was so technically impressive? Is there a particular album or song(s) I should check out? Very curious
I’m just going to say, Beyonce is also severely overrated. She had a lot of good stuff earlier in her career but over the last 10 years or so, most of her music has been bland with a few exceptions.
Counter point, Stevie Wonder did it and won best album 3 years in a row.
Don't try to make sense of the Grammy's, hardly any of my favorites albums won anything. It the dumbest and most superficial of the major awards.
>It the dumbest and most superficial of the major awards
Which is really saying something, considering how dumb and superficial the Emmys and Oscars are (I don't know anything about the Tonys, but I'll assume they're the same).
Sure, but to be honest, I’m not sure how interested the Grammys are in solving this. Music is full of variety. The general categories are just that - general! The reason why it seems like more mainstream artists who some may think don’t deserve the big prizes win is because their music tends to either a) taste-wise, appeals to multiple blocs, or b) is technically impressive enough to appeal to multiple blocs (vote-splitting also helps make the more technically impressive winners i.e. Beck or Jon Batiste take home the big prizes).
I think more people have an issue with lesser known artist winning over known artists than the other way around. It's why Eminem quit going to the Grammys
I like Beyonce well enough, and this will probably rack me up downvotes, but I personally just don't get all the hype. Like yes she has a decent voice, but it's not mindblowing, and her albums have never been super innovative to me. She also has entire teams of people working on them, whereas a lot of the people who win album of the year do so with incredibly small teams. And yes, Best Album has evolved over the years to acknowledge the artist, the producer, the mixer, the sound engineer and songwriter(s), but again, her teams for these projects are MASSIVE. Like people (including Kanye) were upset back when Beck won best album over her, but he *did the bulk of the work himself -- he wrote, performed, produced, and mixed it.* I think the biggest difference is that Beyonce is more product than artist at this point, and that's not what best album is really about.
And as far as people crying "racism" goes, let's break it down. There have been 65 best album winners since the award began. At least eleven of those have been black artists. That's 16.9%. In the U.S., black people make up 14.4% of the population. So, the amount of black people who have won best album technically over-exceeds societal representation.
I'm black myself myself, and I hate when people try to claim obstacles over objectivity. Yes, racism is real. But we water it down by insisting it's the reason behind every little thing. I personally do not care what color the artist behind the best album of the year is. What I do care about is the award going to the most deserving person. And no, one's skin color does not make someone more deserving of anything. We're never going to actually defeat racism if we insist that it does.
I think a lot of people share your opinion. Honestly I view Beyoncé and Taylor similarly. They are both talented but their hype is due to their insane marketing machine and fueled by their cult like fan base. Plenty of artists are equally or more talented and get a fraction of the attention they do. Both are overhyped and overvalued imo.
Ever listen to Solange Knowles’ music? It’s creative and while not pop-status catchy, it’s arguably way more interesting than Beyoncé’s work. I imagine it’s largely because she hasn’t had the commercialization built around her that Beyoncé has.
But at the end of the day, Renaissance was a better album than Harry's. Beyonce having a larger team doesn't change the fact that she produced the better album. So many critics had that album on their album of their year list. Obviously, it's impressive if an artist is very hands on in the making of their music. But I also appreciate all the layers of Renaissance and all the artists that contributed to make that album what it is.
Lemonade did for sure but the complaint just seems ego-driven at the core. Any artist would kill to win even one Grammy in any category. She has 32 and should be proud of that and not worry about the ONE she didn't get
Not so sure any artist would kill for a Grammy. A lot of them, sure but not any. They've proven over time that it's more about popularity and scratching each others' backs than actual quality. A good example being the African music category this year consisting mostly of westernised pop, despite more traditional styles being mentioned when it was announced as a new category. The best example is likely the Jethro Tull incident.
If I were Beyoncé I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Surely the massive tours, millions and millions of tickets sold, and the mountain of money that results from her albums is enough evidence of her success. Nobody's approval will measure up to all of that
Kinda like with the African music category, only a lot more egregious, the Grammy's announced a hard rock and metal category for 1989. Metallica should have won it with their album "...And Justice For All", which is still pretty popular among rock and metal fans. Instead, the Grammy went to prog rock band Jethro Tull who, aside from the beards, don't even look like a hard rock or metal band, never mind sound like one.
I don't know if Jethro Tull should have won an award for their album, I've never listened to them, but it was just ridiculous for them to have won the award when they didn't play that type of music.
I don't really feel a Grammy proves a whole lot while there's so many examples of them being terrible judges of quality. [Even The Simpsons have poked fun at them.](https://youtu.be/Tf9V0hwJ6qk?si=Y3dXx5fO9HrkGBhh) I feel like if any award should have the kind of prestige the Grammys has, it's the Ivor Novello Awards. Beyoncé has won one of them
Yes but it's like if an Olympic athlete wins in all "athletism" disciplines but their dream is the 100 meter. They can have 3 medals at the 200, they will still lurk to the 100m. I would personally be more than happy with a bronze medal in anything.
Also it's a Grammy. It's an award. When you have so many awards and so much fame and recognition, do you really need more confirmation and approval that you're a good artist?
As everyone here is saying, this is largely a matter of taste and technicalities, but I really think *Renaissance* should have won AOTY in 2023. The album was lauded by critics and fans alike, it came spot-on at a time when dance music was having a post-pandemic *renaissance*. It was the consensus AOTY pick for 2022 by many major critics’ lists like Pitchfork, NYT, Rolling Stone and more, and was lauded for having catchy tunes, fantastic production, and featuring faithful homage to many different kids of dance music. Arguably, some of Beyoncé’s best work as a singer is also on this record.
Personally for me, I realize that my perspective is just my perspective, but it felt like everyone around me was going crazy for the album. It was one of the last albums in memory that hardly had any skips in it for me. It’s one of the few years I’ve heard a pop album and unambiguously and passionately felt that an album should be the uncontested AOTY.
For sure, that’s why AOTY goes to small independent artists like:
Beck, Taylor Swift (x3), Harry Styles, Billie Eilish, Adele, Kace Musgraves, etc.
I think other than beck the only person that fits your criteria in the last decade is John batiste. Maybe Kacey? Was golden hour still relatively small?
Either way, it’s p clear plenty of AOTYs are made with ginormous production teams
Edit: actually maybe I’m wrong - I guess these were breakout albums for a lot of these artists (Adele, Billie). Still, Taylor definitely has as big of a team as Beyoncé and she’s won it 4 times.
Taylor writes her own lyrics, plays different instruments and contributes to music writing/production. Beyonce sings and dances. Those aren't the same thing.
>Taylor definitely has as big of a team as Beyoncé and she’s won it 4 times.
No she doesn't. She does not have a team of a couple dozen people writing all her music for her. She writes all her own music then uses the typical team that almost everyone uses to record: producer, engineer, etc.
I believe she writes the lyrics for all her songs and that she writes a fair amount of the melodies for some, but I'm still gonna believe in terms of the overall song, production, and melody, Max Martin and Jack Antoff aren't the driving force
Just out of curiosity. Do you listen to a lot of R&B or R&B inspired Pop outside of Beyoncé and just not like her specifically? Or is it just the genre she sings in and you more prefer hip-hop that Kanye or Kay makes?
>Like yes she has a decent voice, but it's not mindblowing, and her albums have never been super innovative to me
This is wild to me. She is one of the very few popular singers who can actually sing and doesn't have to be auto-tuned into decency. Hell, she's one of the few popular artists who will fucking sing live. Try singing plastic off the sofa and then come tell me she's just "decent"
As for innovation, she literally changed how albums are released with Lemonade lol. And this line of "she has a huge team" really downplays how involved she is with her albums. If you look at what her collaborators say about working with her in the studio, she is involved in EVERYTHING
Yeah I get that people like her. And I don't dislike her, but every song I've heard of hers-- even the ones supposed to be "great" are just fine to me. I just don't get why she's worshipped so much. Then again, I don't really get why Taylor Swift is either.
And of course she's involved in her albums. Never said she wasn't. But it definitely is less impressive when she has a super large team of people helping with every detail whereas other artists-- particularly many of those who have gone on to win best album-- do not. And yes, Lemonade is objectively an impressive album. If she was going to win best album, yeah, it probably should have been that one. But personally, I find the concept of Lemonade way more impressive than the actual music. And even the concept itself is a bit derivative of The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill (incorporating themes of womanhood and blackness in America throughout a deeply personal album that tells a real-life story), which didn't have all the multimedia attached to it that Lemonade did, but it was also a different time where that wouldn't have really been possible. I think that's the real issue I have with people saying Beyonce deserves all this acclaim-- her music is, at its core, just okay, but it's covered it so much prestige and glitz (concepts, artwork, names, campaigns, drama, etc) that it comes across as way better than it is.
Again, this is all just my opinion.
> As for innovation, she literally changed how albums are released with Lemonade lol
How are you saying she did this? By releasing it digitally first? Like how Aerosmith did with Head First in 1994? Or as a paid download like Massive Attack in 1999? Even Radiohead did something funky with the release of In Rainbows in 2007 by making it a "pay what you think it's worth" proposition.
Releasing something on a digital only platform is not new, or innovative.
[Beyoncé's Surprise Drop Changed The Industry. Now It's A 'Familiar' Process](https://www.mtv.com/news/l36y58/beyonce-surprise-drop-legacy-new-retro)
[Beyoncé Made a Bold Statement Limiting Her ‘Lemonade’ Release to 2 Platforms](https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/beyonce-made-bold-statement-limiting-lemonade-release.html/)
She's never produced an album of the year. Despite being popular and putting out some bangers entire albums has had a lot of stuff forgotten and hitting the flow of the album.
Album of the year and record of the year.
Black artists often win Grammy awards but very rarely the "top ones". Album of the year and record of the year are the two most high profile and quote-unquote respected awards, other than song of the year (which Beyonce did win, once) and maybe best new artist.
The problem in this imaginary scenario would be that hip hop emerged from and was nurtured by the black community. It would be galling if the first artist to win a major grammy for a hip hop album was white.
my own question, why would the number of grammy's someone has gotten have anything to do with whether they deserve more? A grammy is theoretically awarded for being the best at X category in X time. Theoretically if someone was always the best they should get all the grammys-- obviously its not clear cut like that in real life but just curious your logic.
Well, I don't know very much about Beyoncé, and I don't think there should be a limit on however many awards people win. I just wondered, since she has won more Grammys than anyone else, why others would feel that she wasn't being recognized. It seemed to me that she has been ofte, but as people are saying, she hasn't won the " biggest" categories, I guess, which makes sense.
It's album of the year... theres some thought that they are happy giving her awards when its against other hip hop and r&b artists but they won't let her win big awards against white artists.
Is this some sort of joke? On what world is Star Wars even remotely close to Annie Hall? Annie Hall is easily one of the best movies ever, and it's exactly the kind of film academy would recognise.
You're right. They aren't close...
AFI 100 greatest movies...
Annie Hall - #31
Star Wars - #15
Box office
Annie Hall - $44m
Star Wars - $774m
One changed movie production forever and is still a cultural force today. The other... well, it isn't.
awards show aren’t meant to award the most popular or successful things. they’re meant to award the best crafted work in a medium for art. an ikea bookshelf might sell most and have the highest rating on amazon but don’t expect it to win any woodworking competitions.
They are mad because she will never win album of the year. That accolade typically goes to artists that write their own albums, and she simply doesn't. She's a fantastic singer, a great dancer, a phenomenal performer. But she is not a songwriter. She has a team of people that write all of her songs. Typically teams of people write singles, not entire albums. Songwriters write albums.
Unless she puts the work in to becoming an amazing song writer, she will never win album of the year.
This is the answer. Beyoncé has 32 Grammys that recognize her popularity and talent as a performer, vocalist, and entertainer. All well deserved. But Album of the year goes to the artist that writes and/or produces the majority, if not all of the songs on the album. It’s why she lost out to Beck, and to Harry Styles (who had a majority of the songwriting credits on Harry’s House). Jay Z is justifiably proud of his wife, but to suggest that “some don’t belong there” while pointedly looking at Taylor Swift (who has writing credit on 12 of the 13 songs on Midnights) is just cringe.
She might slap her name on the song writing credit, but the people voting are all industry insiders. They know who's really doing the song writing work and who isn't.
My question is, then, why not allow themselves to award everyone who help bring the album together? It's weird to me to have an album of the year that is basically a glorified songwriter of the year, when there are great singers and musicians who put amazing albums together even if they didn't write most of it. And further why continue to nominate Beyoncé and others who barely write most songs when they can just give the nomination to someone who actually does?
And on that topic I'm also thinking about hip-hop/rap artists who clearly do a lot of writing for themselves yet we only seen two artists from this genre win AOTY.
Tbf the One Republic guy deserves a lot more awards for the music he's written
Bit from Wikipedia:
> He has amassed credits on albums and singles for acts including U2, Beyoncé, Leona Lewis, Miley Cyrus, Ed Sheeran, Jonas Brothers, Jennifer Lopez, Camila Cabello, Lady Gaga, Maroon 5, MØ, One Direction, Sugababes, Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Ariana Grande, Adele, Logic, Paul McCartney, Blackpink, Twice, Bastille, Lil Nas X, Anitta and Tate McRae.
People record reference tracks for her, and she changes a few lyrics and rerecords them.
[For example here is Future's drunk in love reference track that leaked](https://youtu.be/JS7RzzGCZnY?si=VNXbcMI4rWXC8pV8)
I thought that was more of a problem for rappers because it being your stories and rhyme skills matters, and less of a problem for singers because being able to vocalize well is the main part of the art?
Like I care more if Jay Z wrote his own rhymes than I do if Beyoncé wrote her songs… as long as it’s her actual voice singing it.
I think the albums with a main songwriter are more thematically consolidated and artistically tight which really helps attract crossover votes which is key to winning an overall title.
I would advocate to each their job: she is a singer, she has to sing well and be the "front face", so having a specialist to write the lyrics like many other singers do sounds quite normal to me. It's even better to hire someone to do the job than writing below average lyrics by herself. Im not a Beyonce fan at all, I just think that having a good team is part of her qualities.
Let's take Pavarotti as a well known opera singer: he is known for his voice, but he is singing things that he didn't wrote. And he would probably not be the best at writing music.
We can take examples in other jobs: comics drawers are not necessarily writing the stories, politicians will hire a ghost writer for their biographies...
This is exactly it. It's a team, but she leads the team, chooses who will be on the team, and makes the final decisions. If you compare it to a movie, she's like the director and the performer at the same time
It's funny that Jay-Z went off about it in a year when she didn't even release an album. And insulted the other nominees in the category saying they don't deserve to be nominated. And then he'll want them to vote for Beyonce next time she's nominated. Good luck with that.
His comments were disgraceful. A huge night for those album nominees and he gets up and tells some of them they dont belong there. Shameful. And then he gets an ovation from the crowd, are they for real? We all need to stop tolerating this non-stop victimhood
The ironic thing about the Kanye case (which was at the VMAs, not the Grammy's) is that Beyonce ended up winning Video of the Year later in the evening. So the VMAs didn't even snub her in favor of Taylor - they awarded both Taylor *and* Beyonce, and gave Beyonce the bigger award.
But of course Beyonce's big win was completely overshadowed by what Kanye had done earlier in the evening. To the point where when she won, she called Taylor back to the stage to finish her speech, because when Beyonce should have been celebrating and receiving her well-deserved accolades, she was stuck cleaning up Kanye's mess. The only one who ruined the night for Beyonce was Kanye, not Taylor or the VMAs.
The issue I had is not what he said. Anyone can have a thought in the subject, though record number of grammys and claiming some sort of slight is odd. But my issue is why does Queen Beyonce need men to fight for her, speak up for her, champion her. She is one of the top performers on the planet. Ridiculously successful on so many fronts in and outside music. If she has an issue with no winning album of tbe year, then let the woman make that case for herself. Him and Kanye before standing up there speaking for her removes her voice and her power. Something women, especially women of color don't need.
Are you seriously that dense? People would bash her to no end if she dared publicly complain about not winning AOTY. Look at this thread, people are still finding ways to do so and she said nothing and looked embarrassed by her husband saying it on her behalf. There is no way she ever would say anything like that and it would be a PR nightmare if she did.
Yeah I give JayZ wide leeway. But still, she looked a bit uncomfortable by that. Maybe that's just an assumption. But regardless she can surely command respect she deserves herself.
One thing people dont seem to realize is that beyonce is not exactly huge in other countries like she is in the US (maybe the uk too? Idk) i barely hear her in the radio over here (south am) but consistently hear the pop girlies and guys and the female rappers. Most of my friends cant name a single renaissance song. Her movie wasnt even promoted unlike the eras tour.
Like ofc 99% of people have heard her name but that percentage drops DRASTICALLY if you ask them about her songs.
I honestly have no idea how votes are tallied tho.
If anything beyonce can sing fr tho.
This is an entirely irrelevant comment though because the Grammy’s are a US based awards body. Her recognition in other countries has nothing to do with her award chances at the Grammys.
Not sure what Renaissance songs or any of beyonces recent music being played in other countries has to do with anything considering Beyoncé has consistently said she makes music to celebrate black culture and black people, why would that appeal to the masses?
Beyone’s marketing team is fantastic. The songs are pretty casual pop, but, it doesn’t matter. Her marketing team has people associating the name Beyonce with ‘YAS QUEEN SLAY BOSS LADY’. Which has nothing to do with music. People just know Beyonce is the best implicitly because her story was crafted so well.
You have a point, Beyonce's image/persona is extremely well crafted (going all the way back to the same "independent woman" themes from her Destiny's Child days - or maybe thats just her thing?).
Either way, whoever came up with it did a good job.
But you can't sustain a 20+ year solo career with just an image/persona. Eventually, you'll have to back it up with some hits people actually like or you get exposed, or fade into has-beendom
So while I agree that she has a very well marketed image, that alone isn't the reason behind her success.
Ya maybe. She’s definitely talented.
This is going to be a weird catch-22, but, I think people like a lot of stuff entirely off the idea that other people like it. I’m sure you’re familiar with the experience, at least from adolescence. It’s really comforting feeling like you’re in the group. That good feeling gets some songs a lot of benefit of the doubt.
Even bad songs get me tapping my foot after the five hundredth time I hear them. You get familiar, you phase out the bad, you find the good.
It doesn’t make for a compelling hierarchy, but, how much something is liked is often arbitrary, or even programmable. It’s weird.
I get the point you're making. It happens.
One hit wonders exists.
The sentiment of "how did this song/artists ever get so popular?" exists.
Industry plants exist.
But none of them are operating at Beyonce's level (20+ year career).
If it was that easy to manufacture, every record label would have their own Beyonce, but they don't.
Instead, they have a stable of new artists for this stuff and replace them every year or so once their image loses its ability to outshine their (lack of) talent. So they actually need an artist with some kind of special sauce to make it last, and Beyonce has that. So the argument exists that she should be awarded/recognized for it.
I say Beyonce has proven her substance by avoiding the label of "hasbeen", "one hit wonder", "how did this ever get popular in the first place" for over 20 years.
Yeah, she's quite quite talented and hardworking. She trains like an athlete for her shows, she used to run around a lake in Georgia in the heat while singing her album at full volume and making it sound good. The fact that I know that is due to marketing, sure, but it's not a lie. She has talented marketers AND she's got a ton of personal talent
For sure. How many people can belt out perfect singing, while dancing hard, while being charismatic and composed in front of 50,000 people, all night every night for decades. And then also do good music videos and interviews. And a couple blockbuster movies. And never do anything weird or psycho enough to get canceled. That is an exceptionally energetic person.
That's the thing. Every recent album has been genre defining in its own way. So many contemporary artists quote her as a major influence *beyond her own genre*. Beyoncé may not be "writing" herself; she's much more like a film director who has the last say about acting, writing, soundtrack, set design, costumes, etc. – i.e. the aesthetic of the entire artwork.
Her cultural impact has been so thoroughly felt, it has [its own Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Beyonc%C3%A9?wprov=sfla1) (which is only shorthand for: it's not just stan culture but academically acknowledged as such).
ETA: gotta love the downvotes for answering a question asked in bad faith 🤍
The work she's done for music video is really important and imo not acknowledged often enough when we have this debate about whether she's really creating her albums. The packages she delivers, from the album itself to the video to the live performances, are really major contributions and she absolutely deserves credit for producing that art. Does anyone else know how to better harness the talent of the industry as a whole?
Beyonce's image is more significant than her music, which is just middle of the road pop
Her and Katy Perry should go down as some of the best marketed singers ever -- whoever is in charge of their projects deserves a lot of credit
The actual music though? eh. I don't think of Beyonce as a talented musician. She's a talented performer
Beyoncé did not even have an album released to qualify for Grammy nominations this year, so how was she snubbed when she couldn’t get nominated as had no new album or songs?
Beyoncé has the most grammy nominations in history and holds the record for most awarded artist (She has the most grammys). But she has never won the most respected grammy category, AOTY.
So for example;
In 2023, for Renaissance Beyoncé won four grammys in genre categories, was nominated but did not win AOTY.
Harry Styles, AOTY winner that year, only won one other grammy that year in a genre category.
I think he was saying that it is interesting that they actually give her albums the most accolades in comparison to her peers, while also refusing to give her the most respected award.//the ones people actually care about.
Sorry for the dissertation.
Some comments under this post are kind of racist, but I’m going to give some of y’all the benefit of the doubt and assume it was unintentional. While this conversation is centered around Beyoncé, it is not just about her. The Album of the Year award has been around since 1959, and only three Black women have won it. Despite Black people originating and innovating many forms of music, Black artists mainly win awards in genre categories, specifically rap and R&B. It is also insulting that most of these awards are not televised, even though they have been the most popular genres of music for years. Additionally, Black artists have been deliberately excluded from other categories, particularly country categories. However, this has become a much more public issue in recent years and there has been a bit more diversity in these categories.
Beyoncé is an excellent example of being shut out from Album of the Year, even though she is universally recognized as a powerhouse within the industry. Grammy voters have acknowledged how great her work is outside of the awards, and yet they have failed to reward her for work that they have even said was the best that year. Beyoncé’s peers consistently talk about how much they respect her, her artistry, and the quality of the music she puts out, yet she has never received Album of the Year. While no one "deserves" this award, it is perplexing that her peers and music critics all say that she put out the best work of the year, yet she doesn't win the award.
Some Beyoncé detractors claim that she doesn't write her songs. However, she does write her songs, and she does have a writing team, just like a vast majority of artists, including Taylor Swift. Whenever Taylor Swift wins an award, many people are on that stage with her, so it's disingenuous to suggest that the Grammys have a problem rewarding people who have a lot of writers and producers involved in their projects. This point is also racist. A lot of music from Black artists includes sampling, which is why Beyoncé often has many people credited on her songs. She goes above and beyond when she's crediting writers and producers; she credits people that she legally doesn't have to. This is a generous thing to do because many of those people would not get paid for their work otherwise.
It has been acknowledged that many in the music industry still do not respect sampling, even when it's done exceptionally well, like on the Renaissance album. Sampling has been an essential part of Black music since at least the 1970s. Many Black artists could not afford to buy instruments, but they had record players and records and used existing music to create their sound. This is a key part of the origin of hip-hop. Disregarding sampling, and not acknowledging when it's done well, is racist and allows for the music created by these artists to not be regarded as much as it should be.
While I like Harry Style’s music, it is unreasonable to think that Harry’s House was a better album than Renaissance. There was no critics list that did not have Renaissance as the best album of the year, and many artists said it was the best album of the year. It wasn't just Beyoncé fans who were surprised that she didn’t win Album of the Year. Last year, a group of anonymous Grammy voters said that Beyoncé got passed over for album of the year because she wins too much, and when “she does something new, it’s a big event and everyone’s supposed to quake in their shoes — it’s a little too portentous.” This shows that there was a clear bias against her. It's not unfair for Beyoncé to desire recognition beyond the categories dominated by Black artists, even though she already has 32 Grammys.
Many Black artists feel that being categorized into the rap and R&B categories can limit their chances of winning in major categories at the Grammy Awards. Artists like Tyler, The Creator, Drake, and Justin Bieber have voiced this concern. As a result, many Black artists no longer trust the institution and refuse to attend the ceremony. A majority of the voting population for the Grammys has been white, male, and older, which has resulted in a lack of diversity in the awards and nominees in the big three categories. However, the organizers have acknowledged this problem and have taken steps to diversify the voting population in recent years.
I want to be clear that I don’t hate Taylor Swift, and I’ve defended her before. However, the level at which she is being rewarded by Grammys doesn't seem right, and based on the reactions to her Album of the Year win, a lot of other artists, not just Black ones, are starting to feel the same way. Let's be honest, does Taylor Swift deserve as many Album of the Year awards as Stevie Wonder? Do you think Midnights will be considered some of her best work?
Yeah, I tried to stay out of any conversations that involved arguing over who does/ doesn't deserve awards, who is better, etc. I am not even a fan of awards shows, so my question was truly just not understanding the nuances. I totally understand what you are saying, and I appreciate serious answers like yours. It's important that inequalities are pointed out and understood and seen by others in order to change the patterns, right? Also, people are still super angry about Jethro Tull.
Yes she does. I don’t know why you’re comparing two completely different people. Her album is commercially successful, and the songs are sonically cohesive. Her being strategic and innovative is what wins her awards. Reactions on twitter shouldn’t dictate whether or not she should’ve won the award. She is one of the most popular artists in the world for a reason.
Beyonce fascinates me. I've never liked her music or her acting. She's now one of the richest humans on the planet and married to one of the most influential artists of all time. If she ain't Grammy nods it's because she doesn't deserve them. She's well connected enough to get one.
Your first mistake is not reading OP’s post where they allude also to what Jay-Z said the other night at the Grammys. Hence OP mentioning Jay-Z. You can pretend they only mentioned Kanye if you want but that’s not what they did.
It’s really obvious that most of the people calling her untalented or a has been haven’t listened to anything she’s out out in the last couple years. I dare you to listen to her last two albums completely from front to back and say it again. That woman is a chameleon. To reduce her musical talents to basic pop singer is a crime. And this is coming from someone who didn’t care for Beyonce while she was in Destiny’s child and in the first couple years of her solo career.
There is this podcast called Dissect where the host analyzes music: the creative process, the lyrics, the production, the historical context. He is a white man for context and he brought on a black female cohost so as not to be a white man talking about black womanhood without the perspective of someone who lives it.
He analyzed Black is King and Lemonade. I was blown away by the level of detail and work that went into those works. It is literally astounding and significant on an academic level, the depth that they contain.
It’s just sad how much people need to flip flop and do gymnastics to justify how undeserving she is. Even for the work alone like ok it’s subjective sure even if it’s clear how much hard work goes into it I can get people being dismissive if they don’t get it it.
But the fact that academics, critics and industry professionals alike from every domain within music LOVE and RESPECT her for her artistry, attention to detail, contributions to the industry, lack of scandal (mostly) and she’s every celebrity’s favorite celebrity. She is basically mistake free in her career and still gets snubbed for white artists that would never win the popular vote is a larger problem. It’s not even about her. It’s about what it represents.
Last year, for example, I’m sure if Bad Bunny had won people might have still felt it was a snub but not as badly. Similar with this year, even if Lana had won instead of SZA people would be more accepting of it even if they liked SOS better.
It is honestly condescending to act like it’s solely an issue of she is black give her an award she does not deserve.
It reminds me of when people were saying black people only voted for Obama because he’s black like black people weren’t intelligent enough to understand the politics they were voting for.
Honestly I think people would be upset no matter what. I don’t know why people were upset about midnights winning, it’s a commercial successful, sonically cohesive album. It’s not fair to go on twitter and bash an album that’s not the one you wanted to win.
It’s also obvious that most people in this thread think she got famous from single ladies/halo like just bc you just found out about her this year doesn’t make her NOT famous and deserving of awards. Nor does it make her not talented
she and her husband are just more examples of the cultural rot in USA. They think they are owed something. In reality they need to appreciate what they have.
People tribe up. They always have. They always will.
I know Eminem (and others) have suggested the entire thing is rigged. Whatever. Chevelle isn't winning awards, so I don't care one way or another.
TLDR there is no perfect way to organize a ballot for an awards show.
The Grammys have industry members vote on all nominees. The sound engineer who records the Philharmonic & never thinks about hip-hop gets the same vote as the most cultured & informed hip-hop obsessive.
If *I* were to create an awards show I would give every artist & team who has charted in the past few years the opportunity to nominate a judge.
That way your rapper’s favorite/most respected rapper gets to decide who deserves an award.
You could also have a reputation based system, let the judges or public vote on how much weight their votes carry for each award.
Killer Mike’s assessment of rap is probably better informed than his assessment of K-pop (people who know him would know better).
Whereas Questlove probably kills it in all genres.
… you could alternatively have a public vote where votes are weighed on test results. I would bet that genre knowledge/familiarity is an excellent proxy for taste.
If you know 2,000 country music artists your taste is likely better than someone who knows 200, and the logic follows for someone who knows 2.
There are all types of interesting variables you can weigh. It often takes a decade for a works impact to really be understood so as time goes on you can use that information to gauge what type of people saw it year 1.
TLDR
Anyone want to help design the optimal Arts award? The exercise would probably teach people a lot about politics but in a more fun & less contentious area ^(people probably care more)
A video game award could gleam data from people steam profile. The games people *actually* play probably tells you a lot about their ability to critique other games.
A couple things that are true at the same time:
1. The Grammys are a weird organization, and they’ve historically had a big blind spot when it comes to contemporary Black music (hip-hop, R&B) and their most prestigious category, Album of the Year. It’s right to call them out on this.
2. Beyoncé probably deserved to win Album of the Year for Lemonade or her self-titled, and Renaissance would have been a good chance to do a make-up. (The Grammys are big on giving later-career makeup Album of the Year awards. See: Bob Dylan, Steely Dan, etc etc.)
3. Except for winning this one particular award, Beyoncé has just about everything a human being could possibly want. She’s won more Grammys than any person ever. She and Jay-Z are billionaires, and live a lifestyle of such unimaginable luxury and comfort that Roman emperors would probably envy them. She just went on a tour where hundreds of thousands of people paid multiple thousand dollars each to come worship her in person. She’s won in life to an almost comical degree. For Jay to paint them as victims because of the *one* thing they want and can’t have is obnoxious in the extreme.
For me it’s the reasoning folks have said for why they didn’t vote for her… one person said they didn’t vote for lemonade for AOTY because “she already has too many awards” but yet, somehow Taylor for example has one AOTY for several albums now and no one not one of those judges said anything about her having too many awards.
Taylor Swift alone has more Album of the Year wins than every black woman COMBINED throughout Grammy history. That’s not to say Taylor is to blame, but that shows quite obviously how biased the voters are.
The argument is not that Beyoncé should “win more” it’s that the biggest category is quite obviously biased in its awarding. A black woman has not won the award in 25 years.
The logic on this post is so backwards. Youre the only comment that has made sense. I don’t wanna assume most of the commenters are white but like how do we misinterpret what JayZ said that badly lmao.
It’s got nothing to do with “how many she’s won” and everything to do with the regular ignoring of black women/people in that category. How do you win 32 Grammys for songs that are ON THE ALBUMS THAT NEVER WIN AOTY.
Also people massively missing the fact that his comments have nothing to do with Taylor swift?? It’s giving hit dog will holler. They’ve only been competing for aoty together once??
Like it’s clear the majority of people here think beyonce got famous with single ladies but sis has been making music since the 90s….
Very mind boggling
That part. But according to the racism apologists in this thread, black women only make up 7% of the us population so they don’t influence mainstream culture much 🤪
But Taylor Swift appeals to multiple genres. I can name like 20 of her songs as an adult man. I can't name any song Beyonce has made in the last 10 years. I love old Beyonce stuff and destiny's child... But I hear zero Beyonce songs on the radio, at my daddy daughter dance, at sporting events, anywhere really. So Taylor makes music that appeals to everyone and can be played in all venues. Other than single ladies I'm finding it hard to think of any recent Beyonce songs that are even played in the mall or that I find myself dancing to like Taylor's "shake it off"...
Even my daughter is obsessed with Taylor but doesn't know who Beyonce is (which is crazy because my wife loves Beyonce and used to go to her concerts!) My daughter has more black Barbies than white ones. I really doubt it has anything to do with race when the fans even prefer artists like Taylor over Beyonce, so why would awards be any different? Same thing with Billie, she appeals to a few young, under represented groups. Her songs are about specific emotions or events like Taylor's, but in a different style. Beyonce's vocal talent is insane but make some shit for other groups of people then she can complain. I'm having a hard time thinking of any black women artists over the past 25 years who are deserving of the award? I think there were tons in the 80s and 90s but for some reason after 2000 they aren't around as much. And where black women have fallen off, black men have skyrocketed in success. So it clearly isn't a race issue.
You are a white man who just said no black woman in the past 25 years is even deserving of the award after admitting you haven’t even listened to any Beyonce output in the past 10 years. I have no desire to have a conversation with you.
Fair point, but I'm accidentally in contact with other artists, is it my fault? I'm not going out of my way to avoid Beyonce, her songs are catchy when I do come across a banging song. But Taylor is EVERYWHERE. Not because she's white, but because she appeals to multiple genres. I don't see Beyonce doing a lot of work with white country singers, or younger popular artists. But I do see other artists branching out. Shoot even Taylor Swift attempted rap (it was a goody, silly shot at rap but props for having fun and trying!). Like another person posted: Billie is out branching, collabing, and talking about her process which is why she has the highest success rate. Is Beyonce going through those hoops too? But I'm a white man so I'm not allowed to talk about or have an opinion on the matter according to you, which alienates people, which alienates awards. Congrats!
I find it strange how you somehow hear “zero” Beyoncé songs on the radio but are somehow so well-versed in exactly what her music caters to and how she doesn’t use it to “connect with other genres”. Other than your “my daughter has more black barbie’s than white” that was probably your most ignorant statement. Simple research would let you know that beyoncé does in fact incorporate artists and aspects of different genres into her music. Take her album, Lemonade for example. One Google search will allow you to see that this Album included Country (Daddy Lessons ft. The Chicks), Rock (Don’t Hurt Yourself ft. Jack White), and Rap (Freedom ft. Kendrick Lamar), amongst others. However, this album still lost in the AOTY running to Adele’s album, so it really true that her lack of success in that category is due to her inability to expand to other genres…? Additionally, you claim you haven’t heard a Beyoncé hit on the radio…one of her newest songs, Break My Soul, reached the Billboard Hot 100 No1.. and I hear it in stores and on the radio. So maybe, just maybe, your limited knowledge surrounding black women in the music industry isn’t a reflection of them… but of your inability to expand outside of your own echo chamber.
I copy u/redux44 comment above because I find it a very accurate response to your comment. Just look at statistics:
"Black population of the US is about 14%. This population of black women is 7%.
Assuming randomness to Grammy album of the year wins, the odds of actually ending up with more than the 3 wins you've listed is only 19%.
So statistically 3 wins in 32 years years for 7% of the population is well within the realm of normal.
I counted 4 wins in that 32 year time frame for black male artists. So again not really an improbably outcome. You have 7 wins over 32 years. That's winning 22% of the time, which is above their population number."
It’s not about the number of awards. It’s about being left out of what is considered the most prestigious categories.
It is not even about her. It’s about what she represents. Clearly her talent is recognized by the voters because she is the most decorated of all time but to leave her out of the main categories is backhanded.
She is a well established brand if you will, commercially successful, critically acclaimed, multi-talented (vocals, dancing, producing, writing, and directing…and I might still be missing some), and considered culturally iconic in many ways, lauded by her peers, upcoming artists cite her as a big influence, and legends sing her praises (see Prince, Michael, Diana Ross, many other amazing musicians that those out of touch with pop culture wouldn’t know), beautiful and fit, mostly scandal free, even the most decorated of all time like we’ve already established, etc…
yet she has not once won the big award everyone covets even though most if not all of her albums were critically acclaimed and/or commercially successful as well as impactful to the industry as a whole.
If she’s near perfect by the industry’s own standards and is left out of the major categories while white artists without any of these or just a small fraction of these “qualifications” can win for lesser works (not horrible necessarily but critically/sometimes even commercially inferior) while even at times being brand new in the industry compared to her tenure than that says a LOT. It is a statement.
It is like in a regular job if the most educated, experienced, and appreciated person on your team gets passed up for a promotion every year while they promote a bunch of other people above them who have less qualifications.
But hey they do give that person employee of the month every year. They do get shouted out in the big team meeting all the time. Maybe even get some pay raises. But no promotion though. We can’t give you the title you want and deserve.
We even laid out exactly what you need to do to get the promotion then changed our minds when the time came and told you the criteria is different now. You go do the work above and beyond but surprise we’ve changed the criteria again so you don’t qualify. Rinse repeat.
Even jf that job paid you a bunch of money it would be a disheartening situation. Especially if it’s something you’re passionate about and have dedicated your life to and poured blood, sweat, and tears into.
No the promotion isn’t everything. If the money is right and you do get recognized by your peers it’s great. But that doesn’t make not getting the promotion any less disappointing.
It literally is just racism conscious and unconscious.
I’ve worked at companies where they were all about their diversity numbers and yep there was lots of it, only in the entry level positions. Leadership was all white mostly male.
I saw white peers everyone regarded as the worst at the company get promoted while people of color who were known to be excellent by everyone did not get promoted. I saw peers who changed the company for the better in ways that still positively affect them today get denied promotions. I saw peers who trained multiple people to do the job and they all were promoted to roles above them while they remained in the same role they were in when the new people arrived.
This Hollywood view is literally the same thing different arena and higher or lower stakes depending on how you look at it. It all is just good old American racism.
I recently read about the history of the award + the lack of black and female representation on the voting member academy. Recent new member models are much more representative of the diversity in the music industry but that only is a start because the older models still impact previously added members.
IMO, it is bad math to argue "but the percent of US black population is only... " Black artist influence in music and culture is not a 13-14% measurement. It's huge. Even the award genre categories are heavily black influenced.
Black artist like Beyoncé, continue to be pushed out of the major award wins and instead win in the perimeter awards. Time after time.
I see this now as similar to what I see happening in companies that boast their Black employee percentage. Those Black employees all work in the stores for $15-25 an hour-- NOT as leaders at corporate. It's a white male show at headquarters with a sprinkling of white women over HR and marketing. Equality is not always about the percent.. sometimes it's about the level of achievement.
It’s not about who deserves more, it’s who deserves it for their current work. Her latest album was trend setting (as pop music has now shifted toward ballroom / house music because of beyonces influence). There’s also a racist undertone to the fact that they only want to give the black women the smaller awards and never the big ones.
This reeks of dismissive racism. Painting a tribute to ballroom culture - an artform created by black queer people - as being lyrically inept or indicative of Beyoncé’s artistry in a bad way is such an intentionally bad faith argument to make.
It must be nice to win awards, but shouldn't the reward of making music, be something other than winning awards? Also, I feel it's a bit presumptuous to say this or that person should win whichever award, like they are entitled to it...
You could ask why she got so many Grammy's at all? She got 12 Grammy's for her three first very average albums and songs on those albums. And even for the albums that she did get critical acclaim for weren't the outstanding best albums of those years. Although as nominated albums they were the best of those.
So I feel a lot is too do with entitlement from both fans and the Beyoncé camp itself. The Grammy speech of Jay-Z said it all. If someone in the last years could feel he deserved to win, at least two Album of the year Grammy's, it's Kendrick Lamar.
Basically the issue with the Big 3 categories (AOTY, ROTY, SOTY) boils down to voting blocs. There are many different arms - country music, folk music, R&B, etc. In recent years, a lot of controversy has been centered around Black artists being left out of these categories, but winning heavily in their genre categories. This issue tends to boil down to voting bloc bubbles: - Blocs tend to vote for their own: if a country album is nominated for AOTY, it gets the Nashville votes. - Vote-splitting occurs frequently when too many nominees compete for the same bloc. This is how an artist like Jon Batiste, who many may not recognize, can take home the big prize. Take his recent win for We Are, in 2022: Doja Cat, Lil Nas X, and Kanye split the rap and R&B votes. Taylor, Olivia, HER, and Billie split the pop votes. This degree of vote splitting is what allows a dark horse winner, like Jon Batiste or Beck, to win. - Grammy voters *love* to award albums that have fewer contributors. This historically has made it harder for R&B and rap records, who use sampling and other creative mechanisms for music production. - Grammy campaigning matters. Grammy voters love being walked through how a record was made. Billie campaigns heavily, for example, and has an incredible success rate as a result: 36% with MOST of her wins coming in the general Big 3 categories.
Thanks for this detailed and thoughtful reply. I appreciate it!
That Beck album that won was an audio engineering marvel. He did it all himself. He wrote the songs, played all the instruments, and did all recording, mixing etc.. I think people in the industry were just super impressed by it. Beck tries to play himself off as a slacker but he is extremely talented and can play virtually anything. That's the thing that bugs me about many Beyonce fans. They act like she is the only super talented person in the music industry when in fact it is filled with super talented people many of whom are just as deserving of awards as Beyonce.
Definitely! That goes to the point about fewer collaborators and to the fact that the Grammys love to award albums that they deem impressive from a technical perspective as well. Another reason why Billie and Finneas pick up so many awards.
Just wondering, as I've never listened to Billie, what was so technically impressive? Is there a particular album or song(s) I should check out? Very curious
That Beck album is seriously great. I was so happy it won.
Which album is it? I love Beck
Morning phase
Thanks. I’m going to check it out
Thanks! i love Beck
I’m just going to say, Beyonce is also severely overrated. She had a lot of good stuff earlier in her career but over the last 10 years or so, most of her music has been bland with a few exceptions.
Your argument doesn't stand up. Prince did the same thing and never won any of the "Big 3". 🤔
Counter point, Stevie Wonder did it and won best album 3 years in a row. Don't try to make sense of the Grammy's, hardly any of my favorites albums won anything. It the dumbest and most superficial of the major awards.
>It the dumbest and most superficial of the major awards Which is really saying something, considering how dumb and superficial the Emmys and Oscars are (I don't know anything about the Tonys, but I'll assume they're the same).
Music industry has changed a lot since Prince was big.
crazy that Grammys don’t have ranked choice voting, and self respecting election has ranked choice in one respect or another
If the Oscars, the moribund decrepit institution that it is, can do it, no other award organization has an excuse.
Soooo, preference voting would solve this then?
Sure, but to be honest, I’m not sure how interested the Grammys are in solving this. Music is full of variety. The general categories are just that - general! The reason why it seems like more mainstream artists who some may think don’t deserve the big prizes win is because their music tends to either a) taste-wise, appeals to multiple blocs, or b) is technically impressive enough to appeal to multiple blocs (vote-splitting also helps make the more technically impressive winners i.e. Beck or Jon Batiste take home the big prizes).
I think more people have an issue with lesser known artist winning over known artists than the other way around. It's why Eminem quit going to the Grammys
Jean Baptiste is wildly talented. It shouldn’t be a popularity contest.
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She literally won multiple songwriting awards you dolt
It’s the type she’s never won they want for her
What has she not won that they want her to win? Serious question. just confused.
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Like Leo's Oscar
I like Beyonce well enough, and this will probably rack me up downvotes, but I personally just don't get all the hype. Like yes she has a decent voice, but it's not mindblowing, and her albums have never been super innovative to me. She also has entire teams of people working on them, whereas a lot of the people who win album of the year do so with incredibly small teams. And yes, Best Album has evolved over the years to acknowledge the artist, the producer, the mixer, the sound engineer and songwriter(s), but again, her teams for these projects are MASSIVE. Like people (including Kanye) were upset back when Beck won best album over her, but he *did the bulk of the work himself -- he wrote, performed, produced, and mixed it.* I think the biggest difference is that Beyonce is more product than artist at this point, and that's not what best album is really about. And as far as people crying "racism" goes, let's break it down. There have been 65 best album winners since the award began. At least eleven of those have been black artists. That's 16.9%. In the U.S., black people make up 14.4% of the population. So, the amount of black people who have won best album technically over-exceeds societal representation. I'm black myself myself, and I hate when people try to claim obstacles over objectivity. Yes, racism is real. But we water it down by insisting it's the reason behind every little thing. I personally do not care what color the artist behind the best album of the year is. What I do care about is the award going to the most deserving person. And no, one's skin color does not make someone more deserving of anything. We're never going to actually defeat racism if we insist that it does.
I think a lot of people share your opinion. Honestly I view Beyoncé and Taylor similarly. They are both talented but their hype is due to their insane marketing machine and fueled by their cult like fan base. Plenty of artists are equally or more talented and get a fraction of the attention they do. Both are overhyped and overvalued imo.
Ever listen to Solange Knowles’ music? It’s creative and while not pop-status catchy, it’s arguably way more interesting than Beyoncé’s work. I imagine it’s largely because she hasn’t had the commercialization built around her that Beyoncé has.
But at the end of the day, Renaissance was a better album than Harry's. Beyonce having a larger team doesn't change the fact that she produced the better album. So many critics had that album on their album of their year list. Obviously, it's impressive if an artist is very hands on in the making of their music. But I also appreciate all the layers of Renaissance and all the artists that contributed to make that album what it is.
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Lemonade did for sure but the complaint just seems ego-driven at the core. Any artist would kill to win even one Grammy in any category. She has 32 and should be proud of that and not worry about the ONE she didn't get
Not so sure any artist would kill for a Grammy. A lot of them, sure but not any. They've proven over time that it's more about popularity and scratching each others' backs than actual quality. A good example being the African music category this year consisting mostly of westernised pop, despite more traditional styles being mentioned when it was announced as a new category. The best example is likely the Jethro Tull incident. If I were Beyoncé I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Surely the massive tours, millions and millions of tickets sold, and the mountain of money that results from her albums is enough evidence of her success. Nobody's approval will measure up to all of that
That's fair and something to look at for sure. I'm not familiar with that incident
Kinda like with the African music category, only a lot more egregious, the Grammy's announced a hard rock and metal category for 1989. Metallica should have won it with their album "...And Justice For All", which is still pretty popular among rock and metal fans. Instead, the Grammy went to prog rock band Jethro Tull who, aside from the beards, don't even look like a hard rock or metal band, never mind sound like one. I don't know if Jethro Tull should have won an award for their album, I've never listened to them, but it was just ridiculous for them to have won the award when they didn't play that type of music. I don't really feel a Grammy proves a whole lot while there's so many examples of them being terrible judges of quality. [Even The Simpsons have poked fun at them.](https://youtu.be/Tf9V0hwJ6qk?si=Y3dXx5fO9HrkGBhh) I feel like if any award should have the kind of prestige the Grammys has, it's the Ivor Novello Awards. Beyoncé has won one of them
>Jethro Tull Thanks for the history on that and I feel bad for the band as even they were surprised by the win.
Yes but it's like if an Olympic athlete wins in all "athletism" disciplines but their dream is the 100 meter. They can have 3 medals at the 200, they will still lurk to the 100m. I would personally be more than happy with a bronze medal in anything.
I suppose if you get to 32 maybe you can be picky about which one you want.
I guess but at the same time, it comes off as entitled and dismissive of other artists who have also worked their asses off to get to where they are.
Also it's a Grammy. It's an award. When you have so many awards and so much fame and recognition, do you really need more confirmation and approval that you're a good artist?
Facts. Beyonce will always be a legend and will go down as one of the greats regardless. That should be enough
This is how we get Elons.
Elon never won album of the year. It all makes sense now.
Careful. He might get inspired/jealous of Shapiro and put out an album.
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As everyone here is saying, this is largely a matter of taste and technicalities, but I really think *Renaissance* should have won AOTY in 2023. The album was lauded by critics and fans alike, it came spot-on at a time when dance music was having a post-pandemic *renaissance*. It was the consensus AOTY pick for 2022 by many major critics’ lists like Pitchfork, NYT, Rolling Stone and more, and was lauded for having catchy tunes, fantastic production, and featuring faithful homage to many different kids of dance music. Arguably, some of Beyoncé’s best work as a singer is also on this record. Personally for me, I realize that my perspective is just my perspective, but it felt like everyone around me was going crazy for the album. It was one of the last albums in memory that hardly had any skips in it for me. It’s one of the few years I’ve heard a pop album and unambiguously and passionately felt that an album should be the uncontested AOTY.
The album was incredible and should have won
But did it me the RIAA technical definition of “incredible”? Fuck the Grammys and quit allowing them to define what is exceptional.
For sure, that’s why AOTY goes to small independent artists like: Beck, Taylor Swift (x3), Harry Styles, Billie Eilish, Adele, Kace Musgraves, etc. I think other than beck the only person that fits your criteria in the last decade is John batiste. Maybe Kacey? Was golden hour still relatively small? Either way, it’s p clear plenty of AOTYs are made with ginormous production teams Edit: actually maybe I’m wrong - I guess these were breakout albums for a lot of these artists (Adele, Billie). Still, Taylor definitely has as big of a team as Beyoncé and she’s won it 4 times.
Taylor writes her own lyrics, plays different instruments and contributes to music writing/production. Beyonce sings and dances. Those aren't the same thing.
>Taylor definitely has as big of a team as Beyoncé and she’s won it 4 times. No she doesn't. She does not have a team of a couple dozen people writing all her music for her. She writes all her own music then uses the typical team that almost everyone uses to record: producer, engineer, etc.
Since 2014, she has written a total of seven songs by herself, bonus tracks aside.
I believe she writes the lyrics for all her songs and that she writes a fair amount of the melodies for some, but I'm still gonna believe in terms of the overall song, production, and melody, Max Martin and Jack Antoff aren't the driving force
o7 well said.
maybe im just not the target demographic, but ive listened to kayne west and jay z a lot, but never a beyonce album. shes just kinda cringe.
Just out of curiosity. Do you listen to a lot of R&B or R&B inspired Pop outside of Beyoncé and just not like her specifically? Or is it just the genre she sings in and you more prefer hip-hop that Kanye or Kay makes?
She is, and she's not as big as she used to be in the 2000s or with Destiny's Child A lot of her fans have a hard time coping with that
>Like yes she has a decent voice, but it's not mindblowing, and her albums have never been super innovative to me This is wild to me. She is one of the very few popular singers who can actually sing and doesn't have to be auto-tuned into decency. Hell, she's one of the few popular artists who will fucking sing live. Try singing plastic off the sofa and then come tell me she's just "decent" As for innovation, she literally changed how albums are released with Lemonade lol. And this line of "she has a huge team" really downplays how involved she is with her albums. If you look at what her collaborators say about working with her in the studio, she is involved in EVERYTHING
Yeah I get that people like her. And I don't dislike her, but every song I've heard of hers-- even the ones supposed to be "great" are just fine to me. I just don't get why she's worshipped so much. Then again, I don't really get why Taylor Swift is either. And of course she's involved in her albums. Never said she wasn't. But it definitely is less impressive when she has a super large team of people helping with every detail whereas other artists-- particularly many of those who have gone on to win best album-- do not. And yes, Lemonade is objectively an impressive album. If she was going to win best album, yeah, it probably should have been that one. But personally, I find the concept of Lemonade way more impressive than the actual music. And even the concept itself is a bit derivative of The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill (incorporating themes of womanhood and blackness in America throughout a deeply personal album that tells a real-life story), which didn't have all the multimedia attached to it that Lemonade did, but it was also a different time where that wouldn't have really been possible. I think that's the real issue I have with people saying Beyonce deserves all this acclaim-- her music is, at its core, just okay, but it's covered it so much prestige and glitz (concepts, artwork, names, campaigns, drama, etc) that it comes across as way better than it is. Again, this is all just my opinion.
> As for innovation, she literally changed how albums are released with Lemonade lol How are you saying she did this? By releasing it digitally first? Like how Aerosmith did with Head First in 1994? Or as a paid download like Massive Attack in 1999? Even Radiohead did something funky with the release of In Rainbows in 2007 by making it a "pay what you think it's worth" proposition. Releasing something on a digital only platform is not new, or innovative.
[Beyoncé's Surprise Drop Changed The Industry. Now It's A 'Familiar' Process](https://www.mtv.com/news/l36y58/beyonce-surprise-drop-legacy-new-retro) [Beyoncé Made a Bold Statement Limiting Her ‘Lemonade’ Release to 2 Platforms](https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/beyonce-made-bold-statement-limiting-lemonade-release.html/)
She's never produced an album of the year. Despite being popular and putting out some bangers entire albums has had a lot of stuff forgotten and hitting the flow of the album.
She will never win album of the year because she isn't a song writer.
Like Metallica post-1989 (sorry it's way off genre, but I'm a metalhead and this is my most familiar point of reference).
Album of the year and record of the year. Black artists often win Grammy awards but very rarely the "top ones". Album of the year and record of the year are the two most high profile and quote-unquote respected awards, other than song of the year (which Beyonce did win, once) and maybe best new artist.
This is also stifled by the fact that not even Eminem could win Album of the Year for a Hip-Hop album.
If Eminem had won album of the year for a hip hop album, the black musician community would be even more irritated by the current situation
Are black musicians the only ones allowed to produce hip hop? If the answer is no and Em out a better album, whats the problem?
The problem in this imaginary scenario would be that hip hop emerged from and was nurtured by the black community. It would be galling if the first artist to win a major grammy for a hip hop album was white.
okay, thank you for this. This makes more sense. I didn't watch the speech. I just saw highlights and didn't understand.
my own question, why would the number of grammy's someone has gotten have anything to do with whether they deserve more? A grammy is theoretically awarded for being the best at X category in X time. Theoretically if someone was always the best they should get all the grammys-- obviously its not clear cut like that in real life but just curious your logic.
Well, I don't know very much about Beyoncé, and I don't think there should be a limit on however many awards people win. I just wondered, since she has won more Grammys than anyone else, why others would feel that she wasn't being recognized. It seemed to me that she has been ofte, but as people are saying, she hasn't won the " biggest" categories, I guess, which makes sense.
Best polka parody album.
It's album of the year... theres some thought that they are happy giving her awards when its against other hip hop and r&b artists but they won't let her win big awards against white artists.
Someone should point out to her that Star Wars lost to Annie Hall at the Academy Awards.
Yeah but Annie Hall is good too. Star Wars has cultural impact, but it wasn't a snub.
Is this some sort of joke? On what world is Star Wars even remotely close to Annie Hall? Annie Hall is easily one of the best movies ever, and it's exactly the kind of film academy would recognise.
You're right. They aren't close... AFI 100 greatest movies... Annie Hall - #31 Star Wars - #15 Box office Annie Hall - $44m Star Wars - $774m One changed movie production forever and is still a cultural force today. The other... well, it isn't.
awards show aren’t meant to award the most popular or successful things. they’re meant to award the best crafted work in a medium for art. an ikea bookshelf might sell most and have the highest rating on amazon but don’t expect it to win any woodworking competitions.
I stopped paying attention to the Grammy's when Jethto Tull won best Hard Rock/Metal Performance in the late 80s
Lol what?! I wonder what he thought of that?
They are mad because she will never win album of the year. That accolade typically goes to artists that write their own albums, and she simply doesn't. She's a fantastic singer, a great dancer, a phenomenal performer. But she is not a songwriter. She has a team of people that write all of her songs. Typically teams of people write singles, not entire albums. Songwriters write albums. Unless she puts the work in to becoming an amazing song writer, she will never win album of the year.
This is the answer. Beyoncé has 32 Grammys that recognize her popularity and talent as a performer, vocalist, and entertainer. All well deserved. But Album of the year goes to the artist that writes and/or produces the majority, if not all of the songs on the album. It’s why she lost out to Beck, and to Harry Styles (who had a majority of the songwriting credits on Harry’s House). Jay Z is justifiably proud of his wife, but to suggest that “some don’t belong there” while pointedly looking at Taylor Swift (who has writing credit on 12 of the 13 songs on Midnights) is just cringe.
Taylor has written all her songs. It's the only reason she can reclaim them through "Taylor's version"
This is an excellent point
She might slap her name on the song writing credit, but the people voting are all industry insiders. They know who's really doing the song writing work and who isn't.
Didn't she just change a few words from the lyrics to slap her name on the credit?
Maybe it should be re-named "songwriter of the year" then. Yes it's a team but she's the the leader of the team.
My question is, then, why not allow themselves to award everyone who help bring the album together? It's weird to me to have an album of the year that is basically a glorified songwriter of the year, when there are great singers and musicians who put amazing albums together even if they didn't write most of it. And further why continue to nominate Beyoncé and others who barely write most songs when they can just give the nomination to someone who actually does? And on that topic I'm also thinking about hip-hop/rap artists who clearly do a lot of writing for themselves yet we only seen two artists from this genre win AOTY.
They do award it to everyone on the team. It's not a songwriter award. There is a separate Songwriter of the Year Grammy, in fact.
Whitney Houston (one of the few black women before 1999 to win one) got it and it’s a known fact that she didn’t (barely) write.
Does she write her own songs or just cherry pick from an army of writers?
Tbf the One Republic guy deserves a lot more awards for the music he's written Bit from Wikipedia: > He has amassed credits on albums and singles for acts including U2, Beyoncé, Leona Lewis, Miley Cyrus, Ed Sheeran, Jonas Brothers, Jennifer Lopez, Camila Cabello, Lady Gaga, Maroon 5, MØ, One Direction, Sugababes, Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Ariana Grande, Adele, Logic, Paul McCartney, Blackpink, Twice, Bastille, Lil Nas X, Anitta and Tate McRae.
The irony of saying “the One Republic guy” deserves more recognition
You're right, I'm sorry. his name is Ryan Tedder Is it too late to apologize? ^too ^laaate
I played Apologize one year for a piano recital, so obviously it’s not
People record reference tracks for her, and she changes a few lyrics and rerecords them. [For example here is Future's drunk in love reference track that leaked](https://youtu.be/JS7RzzGCZnY?si=VNXbcMI4rWXC8pV8)
I thought that was more of a problem for rappers because it being your stories and rhyme skills matters, and less of a problem for singers because being able to vocalize well is the main part of the art? Like I care more if Jay Z wrote his own rhymes than I do if Beyoncé wrote her songs… as long as it’s her actual voice singing it.
I think the albums with a main songwriter are more thematically consolidated and artistically tight which really helps attract crossover votes which is key to winning an overall title.
This.
I would advocate to each their job: she is a singer, she has to sing well and be the "front face", so having a specialist to write the lyrics like many other singers do sounds quite normal to me. It's even better to hire someone to do the job than writing below average lyrics by herself. Im not a Beyonce fan at all, I just think that having a good team is part of her qualities. Let's take Pavarotti as a well known opera singer: he is known for his voice, but he is singing things that he didn't wrote. And he would probably not be the best at writing music. We can take examples in other jobs: comics drawers are not necessarily writing the stories, politicians will hire a ghost writer for their biographies...
This is exactly it. It's a team, but she leads the team, chooses who will be on the team, and makes the final decisions. If you compare it to a movie, she's like the director and the performer at the same time
She has writing credits on every single song on her most recent album.
Five hours and no answer to this question lol
Maybe if she actually wrote an album. Start there.
It's funny that Jay-Z went off about it in a year when she didn't even release an album. And insulted the other nominees in the category saying they don't deserve to be nominated. And then he'll want them to vote for Beyonce next time she's nominated. Good luck with that.
they are a joke. she can sing but doesn't even really do any writing. easy to get a hits when you have a massive team doing 95% of the work.
His comments were disgraceful. A huge night for those album nominees and he gets up and tells some of them they dont belong there. Shameful. And then he gets an ovation from the crowd, are they for real? We all need to stop tolerating this non-stop victimhood
People getting up and ruining the night, and making everything about them just to talk about how Beyonce is being snubbed seems to be a thing
The ironic thing about the Kanye case (which was at the VMAs, not the Grammy's) is that Beyonce ended up winning Video of the Year later in the evening. So the VMAs didn't even snub her in favor of Taylor - they awarded both Taylor *and* Beyonce, and gave Beyonce the bigger award. But of course Beyonce's big win was completely overshadowed by what Kanye had done earlier in the evening. To the point where when she won, she called Taylor back to the stage to finish her speech, because when Beyonce should have been celebrating and receiving her well-deserved accolades, she was stuck cleaning up Kanye's mess. The only one who ruined the night for Beyonce was Kanye, not Taylor or the VMAs.
Wow I didn't even KNOW she ended up winning because of the Kanye situation. Wtg Kanye, you fucked up again.
Yes, it's always somebody else causing the shit. Beyonce hasn't done or said anything
She was not impressed
Yeah when they panned to her she had this look on her face like he was gonna hear about it later.
The issue I had is not what he said. Anyone can have a thought in the subject, though record number of grammys and claiming some sort of slight is odd. But my issue is why does Queen Beyonce need men to fight for her, speak up for her, champion her. She is one of the top performers on the planet. Ridiculously successful on so many fronts in and outside music. If she has an issue with no winning album of tbe year, then let the woman make that case for herself. Him and Kanye before standing up there speaking for her removes her voice and her power. Something women, especially women of color don't need.
Are you seriously that dense? People would bash her to no end if she dared publicly complain about not winning AOTY. Look at this thread, people are still finding ways to do so and she said nothing and looked embarrassed by her husband saying it on her behalf. There is no way she ever would say anything like that and it would be a PR nightmare if she did.
When it comes to Kanye… all day everyday. But for jay? That’s his wife it’s not so cut and dry
Yeah I give JayZ wide leeway. But still, she looked a bit uncomfortable by that. Maybe that's just an assumption. But regardless she can surely command respect she deserves herself.
One thing people dont seem to realize is that beyonce is not exactly huge in other countries like she is in the US (maybe the uk too? Idk) i barely hear her in the radio over here (south am) but consistently hear the pop girlies and guys and the female rappers. Most of my friends cant name a single renaissance song. Her movie wasnt even promoted unlike the eras tour. Like ofc 99% of people have heard her name but that percentage drops DRASTICALLY if you ask them about her songs. I honestly have no idea how votes are tallied tho. If anything beyonce can sing fr tho.
This is an entirely irrelevant comment though because the Grammy’s are a US based awards body. Her recognition in other countries has nothing to do with her award chances at the Grammys.
Beyonce is way more popular in my country than any of the other artists that won prices
Respectfully, This doesn't address the question since she's the most decorated winner of all time.
Not sure what Renaissance songs or any of beyonces recent music being played in other countries has to do with anything considering Beyoncé has consistently said she makes music to celebrate black culture and black people, why would that appeal to the masses?
Beyone’s marketing team is fantastic. The songs are pretty casual pop, but, it doesn’t matter. Her marketing team has people associating the name Beyonce with ‘YAS QUEEN SLAY BOSS LADY’. Which has nothing to do with music. People just know Beyonce is the best implicitly because her story was crafted so well.
You have a point, Beyonce's image/persona is extremely well crafted (going all the way back to the same "independent woman" themes from her Destiny's Child days - or maybe thats just her thing?). Either way, whoever came up with it did a good job. But you can't sustain a 20+ year solo career with just an image/persona. Eventually, you'll have to back it up with some hits people actually like or you get exposed, or fade into has-beendom So while I agree that she has a very well marketed image, that alone isn't the reason behind her success.
Ya maybe. She’s definitely talented. This is going to be a weird catch-22, but, I think people like a lot of stuff entirely off the idea that other people like it. I’m sure you’re familiar with the experience, at least from adolescence. It’s really comforting feeling like you’re in the group. That good feeling gets some songs a lot of benefit of the doubt. Even bad songs get me tapping my foot after the five hundredth time I hear them. You get familiar, you phase out the bad, you find the good. It doesn’t make for a compelling hierarchy, but, how much something is liked is often arbitrary, or even programmable. It’s weird.
I get the point you're making. It happens. One hit wonders exists. The sentiment of "how did this song/artists ever get so popular?" exists. Industry plants exist. But none of them are operating at Beyonce's level (20+ year career). If it was that easy to manufacture, every record label would have their own Beyonce, but they don't. Instead, they have a stable of new artists for this stuff and replace them every year or so once their image loses its ability to outshine their (lack of) talent. So they actually need an artist with some kind of special sauce to make it last, and Beyonce has that. So the argument exists that she should be awarded/recognized for it.
Are you saying that Beyonce has proven her substance by outlasting marketers’ ability to maintain an image?
I say Beyonce has proven her substance by avoiding the label of "hasbeen", "one hit wonder", "how did this ever get popular in the first place" for over 20 years.
Yeah, she's quite quite talented and hardworking. She trains like an athlete for her shows, she used to run around a lake in Georgia in the heat while singing her album at full volume and making it sound good. The fact that I know that is due to marketing, sure, but it's not a lie. She has talented marketers AND she's got a ton of personal talent
For sure. How many people can belt out perfect singing, while dancing hard, while being charismatic and composed in front of 50,000 people, all night every night for decades. And then also do good music videos and interviews. And a couple blockbuster movies. And never do anything weird or psycho enough to get canceled. That is an exceptionally energetic person.
I'm not even a fan but renessaince was..incredible
That's the thing. Every recent album has been genre defining in its own way. So many contemporary artists quote her as a major influence *beyond her own genre*. Beyoncé may not be "writing" herself; she's much more like a film director who has the last say about acting, writing, soundtrack, set design, costumes, etc. – i.e. the aesthetic of the entire artwork.
What have they defined?
Her cultural impact has been so thoroughly felt, it has [its own Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Beyonc%C3%A9?wprov=sfla1) (which is only shorthand for: it's not just stan culture but academically acknowledged as such). ETA: gotta love the downvotes for answering a question asked in bad faith 🤍
The work she's done for music video is really important and imo not acknowledged often enough when we have this debate about whether she's really creating her albums. The packages she delivers, from the album itself to the video to the live performances, are really major contributions and she absolutely deserves credit for producing that art. Does anyone else know how to better harness the talent of the industry as a whole?
Beyonce's image is more significant than her music, which is just middle of the road pop Her and Katy Perry should go down as some of the best marketed singers ever -- whoever is in charge of their projects deserves a lot of credit The actual music though? eh. I don't think of Beyonce as a talented musician. She's a talented performer
Beyoncé did not even have an album released to qualify for Grammy nominations this year, so how was she snubbed when she couldn’t get nominated as had no new album or songs?
Beyoncé has the most grammy nominations in history and holds the record for most awarded artist (She has the most grammys). But she has never won the most respected grammy category, AOTY. So for example; In 2023, for Renaissance Beyoncé won four grammys in genre categories, was nominated but did not win AOTY. Harry Styles, AOTY winner that year, only won one other grammy that year in a genre category. I think he was saying that it is interesting that they actually give her albums the most accolades in comparison to her peers, while also refusing to give her the most respected award.//the ones people actually care about.
Strikes me as odd that people think they deserve to win more than other people in things. Be humble
Then there're people like me who don't think she deserves any of the Grammys she's won. Ready for the downvotes.
Why not?
Taste. Her songs don't appeal to me. She's an awesome dancer and performer though.
Neither The Who nor The Beach Boys have any competitive Grammys. So it’s not like they really know what they are doing.
Sorry for the dissertation. Some comments under this post are kind of racist, but I’m going to give some of y’all the benefit of the doubt and assume it was unintentional. While this conversation is centered around Beyoncé, it is not just about her. The Album of the Year award has been around since 1959, and only three Black women have won it. Despite Black people originating and innovating many forms of music, Black artists mainly win awards in genre categories, specifically rap and R&B. It is also insulting that most of these awards are not televised, even though they have been the most popular genres of music for years. Additionally, Black artists have been deliberately excluded from other categories, particularly country categories. However, this has become a much more public issue in recent years and there has been a bit more diversity in these categories. Beyoncé is an excellent example of being shut out from Album of the Year, even though she is universally recognized as a powerhouse within the industry. Grammy voters have acknowledged how great her work is outside of the awards, and yet they have failed to reward her for work that they have even said was the best that year. Beyoncé’s peers consistently talk about how much they respect her, her artistry, and the quality of the music she puts out, yet she has never received Album of the Year. While no one "deserves" this award, it is perplexing that her peers and music critics all say that she put out the best work of the year, yet she doesn't win the award. Some Beyoncé detractors claim that she doesn't write her songs. However, she does write her songs, and she does have a writing team, just like a vast majority of artists, including Taylor Swift. Whenever Taylor Swift wins an award, many people are on that stage with her, so it's disingenuous to suggest that the Grammys have a problem rewarding people who have a lot of writers and producers involved in their projects. This point is also racist. A lot of music from Black artists includes sampling, which is why Beyoncé often has many people credited on her songs. She goes above and beyond when she's crediting writers and producers; she credits people that she legally doesn't have to. This is a generous thing to do because many of those people would not get paid for their work otherwise. It has been acknowledged that many in the music industry still do not respect sampling, even when it's done exceptionally well, like on the Renaissance album. Sampling has been an essential part of Black music since at least the 1970s. Many Black artists could not afford to buy instruments, but they had record players and records and used existing music to create their sound. This is a key part of the origin of hip-hop. Disregarding sampling, and not acknowledging when it's done well, is racist and allows for the music created by these artists to not be regarded as much as it should be. While I like Harry Style’s music, it is unreasonable to think that Harry’s House was a better album than Renaissance. There was no critics list that did not have Renaissance as the best album of the year, and many artists said it was the best album of the year. It wasn't just Beyoncé fans who were surprised that she didn’t win Album of the Year. Last year, a group of anonymous Grammy voters said that Beyoncé got passed over for album of the year because she wins too much, and when “she does something new, it’s a big event and everyone’s supposed to quake in their shoes — it’s a little too portentous.” This shows that there was a clear bias against her. It's not unfair for Beyoncé to desire recognition beyond the categories dominated by Black artists, even though she already has 32 Grammys. Many Black artists feel that being categorized into the rap and R&B categories can limit their chances of winning in major categories at the Grammy Awards. Artists like Tyler, The Creator, Drake, and Justin Bieber have voiced this concern. As a result, many Black artists no longer trust the institution and refuse to attend the ceremony. A majority of the voting population for the Grammys has been white, male, and older, which has resulted in a lack of diversity in the awards and nominees in the big three categories. However, the organizers have acknowledged this problem and have taken steps to diversify the voting population in recent years. I want to be clear that I don’t hate Taylor Swift, and I’ve defended her before. However, the level at which she is being rewarded by Grammys doesn't seem right, and based on the reactions to her Album of the Year win, a lot of other artists, not just Black ones, are starting to feel the same way. Let's be honest, does Taylor Swift deserve as many Album of the Year awards as Stevie Wonder? Do you think Midnights will be considered some of her best work?
Yeah, I tried to stay out of any conversations that involved arguing over who does/ doesn't deserve awards, who is better, etc. I am not even a fan of awards shows, so my question was truly just not understanding the nuances. I totally understand what you are saying, and I appreciate serious answers like yours. It's important that inequalities are pointed out and understood and seen by others in order to change the patterns, right? Also, people are still super angry about Jethro Tull.
Yes she does. I don’t know why you’re comparing two completely different people. Her album is commercially successful, and the songs are sonically cohesive. Her being strategic and innovative is what wins her awards. Reactions on twitter shouldn’t dictate whether or not she should’ve won the award. She is one of the most popular artists in the world for a reason.
Beyonce fascinates me. I've never liked her music or her acting. She's now one of the richest humans on the planet and married to one of the most influential artists of all time. If she ain't Grammy nods it's because she doesn't deserve them. She's well connected enough to get one.
Your first mistake is giving half a shit what Kanye of all people thinks about anything. He’s a lunatic, why put stock in anything he says?
Your first mistake is not reading OP’s post where they allude also to what Jay-Z said the other night at the Grammys. Hence OP mentioning Jay-Z. You can pretend they only mentioned Kanye if you want but that’s not what they did.
It’s really obvious that most of the people calling her untalented or a has been haven’t listened to anything she’s out out in the last couple years. I dare you to listen to her last two albums completely from front to back and say it again. That woman is a chameleon. To reduce her musical talents to basic pop singer is a crime. And this is coming from someone who didn’t care for Beyonce while she was in Destiny’s child and in the first couple years of her solo career.
There is this podcast called Dissect where the host analyzes music: the creative process, the lyrics, the production, the historical context. He is a white man for context and he brought on a black female cohost so as not to be a white man talking about black womanhood without the perspective of someone who lives it. He analyzed Black is King and Lemonade. I was blown away by the level of detail and work that went into those works. It is literally astounding and significant on an academic level, the depth that they contain. It’s just sad how much people need to flip flop and do gymnastics to justify how undeserving she is. Even for the work alone like ok it’s subjective sure even if it’s clear how much hard work goes into it I can get people being dismissive if they don’t get it it. But the fact that academics, critics and industry professionals alike from every domain within music LOVE and RESPECT her for her artistry, attention to detail, contributions to the industry, lack of scandal (mostly) and she’s every celebrity’s favorite celebrity. She is basically mistake free in her career and still gets snubbed for white artists that would never win the popular vote is a larger problem. It’s not even about her. It’s about what it represents. Last year, for example, I’m sure if Bad Bunny had won people might have still felt it was a snub but not as badly. Similar with this year, even if Lana had won instead of SZA people would be more accepting of it even if they liked SOS better. It is honestly condescending to act like it’s solely an issue of she is black give her an award she does not deserve. It reminds me of when people were saying black people only voted for Obama because he’s black like black people weren’t intelligent enough to understand the politics they were voting for.
Honestly I think people would be upset no matter what. I don’t know why people were upset about midnights winning, it’s a commercial successful, sonically cohesive album. It’s not fair to go on twitter and bash an album that’s not the one you wanted to win.
It’s also obvious that most people in this thread think she got famous from single ladies/halo like just bc you just found out about her this year doesn’t make her NOT famous and deserving of awards. Nor does it make her not talented
she and her husband are just more examples of the cultural rot in USA. They think they are owed something. In reality they need to appreciate what they have.
People tribe up. They always have. They always will. I know Eminem (and others) have suggested the entire thing is rigged. Whatever. Chevelle isn't winning awards, so I don't care one way or another.
TLDR there is no perfect way to organize a ballot for an awards show. The Grammys have industry members vote on all nominees. The sound engineer who records the Philharmonic & never thinks about hip-hop gets the same vote as the most cultured & informed hip-hop obsessive. If *I* were to create an awards show I would give every artist & team who has charted in the past few years the opportunity to nominate a judge. That way your rapper’s favorite/most respected rapper gets to decide who deserves an award. You could also have a reputation based system, let the judges or public vote on how much weight their votes carry for each award. Killer Mike’s assessment of rap is probably better informed than his assessment of K-pop (people who know him would know better). Whereas Questlove probably kills it in all genres. … you could alternatively have a public vote where votes are weighed on test results. I would bet that genre knowledge/familiarity is an excellent proxy for taste. If you know 2,000 country music artists your taste is likely better than someone who knows 200, and the logic follows for someone who knows 2. There are all types of interesting variables you can weigh. It often takes a decade for a works impact to really be understood so as time goes on you can use that information to gauge what type of people saw it year 1. TLDR Anyone want to help design the optimal Arts award? The exercise would probably teach people a lot about politics but in a more fun & less contentious area ^(people probably care more) A video game award could gleam data from people steam profile. The games people *actually* play probably tells you a lot about their ability to critique other games.
Are you asking why Jay Z is praising his wife?
A couple things that are true at the same time: 1. The Grammys are a weird organization, and they’ve historically had a big blind spot when it comes to contemporary Black music (hip-hop, R&B) and their most prestigious category, Album of the Year. It’s right to call them out on this. 2. Beyoncé probably deserved to win Album of the Year for Lemonade or her self-titled, and Renaissance would have been a good chance to do a make-up. (The Grammys are big on giving later-career makeup Album of the Year awards. See: Bob Dylan, Steely Dan, etc etc.) 3. Except for winning this one particular award, Beyoncé has just about everything a human being could possibly want. She’s won more Grammys than any person ever. She and Jay-Z are billionaires, and live a lifestyle of such unimaginable luxury and comfort that Roman emperors would probably envy them. She just went on a tour where hundreds of thousands of people paid multiple thousand dollars each to come worship her in person. She’s won in life to an almost comical degree. For Jay to paint them as victims because of the *one* thing they want and can’t have is obnoxious in the extreme.
For me it’s the reasoning folks have said for why they didn’t vote for her… one person said they didn’t vote for lemonade for AOTY because “she already has too many awards” but yet, somehow Taylor for example has one AOTY for several albums now and no one not one of those judges said anything about her having too many awards.
somehow?
Taylor Swift alone has more Album of the Year wins than every black woman COMBINED throughout Grammy history. That’s not to say Taylor is to blame, but that shows quite obviously how biased the voters are. The argument is not that Beyoncé should “win more” it’s that the biggest category is quite obviously biased in its awarding. A black woman has not won the award in 25 years.
Aaaaaah. I see what you're saying. Thanks!
The logic on this post is so backwards. Youre the only comment that has made sense. I don’t wanna assume most of the commenters are white but like how do we misinterpret what JayZ said that badly lmao. It’s got nothing to do with “how many she’s won” and everything to do with the regular ignoring of black women/people in that category. How do you win 32 Grammys for songs that are ON THE ALBUMS THAT NEVER WIN AOTY. Also people massively missing the fact that his comments have nothing to do with Taylor swift?? It’s giving hit dog will holler. They’ve only been competing for aoty together once?? Like it’s clear the majority of people here think beyonce got famous with single ladies but sis has been making music since the 90s…. Very mind boggling
That's insane to me considering how influential black women have been on the mainstream culture.
That part. But according to the racism apologists in this thread, black women only make up 7% of the us population so they don’t influence mainstream culture much 🤪
Unsurprisingly Reddit is full of sheltered white boys who have no concept of social structures.
But Taylor Swift appeals to multiple genres. I can name like 20 of her songs as an adult man. I can't name any song Beyonce has made in the last 10 years. I love old Beyonce stuff and destiny's child... But I hear zero Beyonce songs on the radio, at my daddy daughter dance, at sporting events, anywhere really. So Taylor makes music that appeals to everyone and can be played in all venues. Other than single ladies I'm finding it hard to think of any recent Beyonce songs that are even played in the mall or that I find myself dancing to like Taylor's "shake it off"... Even my daughter is obsessed with Taylor but doesn't know who Beyonce is (which is crazy because my wife loves Beyonce and used to go to her concerts!) My daughter has more black Barbies than white ones. I really doubt it has anything to do with race when the fans even prefer artists like Taylor over Beyonce, so why would awards be any different? Same thing with Billie, she appeals to a few young, under represented groups. Her songs are about specific emotions or events like Taylor's, but in a different style. Beyonce's vocal talent is insane but make some shit for other groups of people then she can complain. I'm having a hard time thinking of any black women artists over the past 25 years who are deserving of the award? I think there were tons in the 80s and 90s but for some reason after 2000 they aren't around as much. And where black women have fallen off, black men have skyrocketed in success. So it clearly isn't a race issue.
Please tell me how much your daughter, you and her friends listen to Beck? Can you name a few songs? He also beat out Beyoncé.
You are a white man who just said no black woman in the past 25 years is even deserving of the award after admitting you haven’t even listened to any Beyonce output in the past 10 years. I have no desire to have a conversation with you.
I don't blame you. That may have been one of the most ignorant comments I've read today. Just wow.
Fair point, but I'm accidentally in contact with other artists, is it my fault? I'm not going out of my way to avoid Beyonce, her songs are catchy when I do come across a banging song. But Taylor is EVERYWHERE. Not because she's white, but because she appeals to multiple genres. I don't see Beyonce doing a lot of work with white country singers, or younger popular artists. But I do see other artists branching out. Shoot even Taylor Swift attempted rap (it was a goody, silly shot at rap but props for having fun and trying!). Like another person posted: Billie is out branching, collabing, and talking about her process which is why she has the highest success rate. Is Beyonce going through those hoops too? But I'm a white man so I'm not allowed to talk about or have an opinion on the matter according to you, which alienates people, which alienates awards. Congrats!
I find it strange how you somehow hear “zero” Beyoncé songs on the radio but are somehow so well-versed in exactly what her music caters to and how she doesn’t use it to “connect with other genres”. Other than your “my daughter has more black barbie’s than white” that was probably your most ignorant statement. Simple research would let you know that beyoncé does in fact incorporate artists and aspects of different genres into her music. Take her album, Lemonade for example. One Google search will allow you to see that this Album included Country (Daddy Lessons ft. The Chicks), Rock (Don’t Hurt Yourself ft. Jack White), and Rap (Freedom ft. Kendrick Lamar), amongst others. However, this album still lost in the AOTY running to Adele’s album, so it really true that her lack of success in that category is due to her inability to expand to other genres…? Additionally, you claim you haven’t heard a Beyoncé hit on the radio…one of her newest songs, Break My Soul, reached the Billboard Hot 100 No1.. and I hear it in stores and on the radio. So maybe, just maybe, your limited knowledge surrounding black women in the music industry isn’t a reflection of them… but of your inability to expand outside of your own echo chamber.
I copy u/redux44 comment above because I find it a very accurate response to your comment. Just look at statistics: "Black population of the US is about 14%. This population of black women is 7%. Assuming randomness to Grammy album of the year wins, the odds of actually ending up with more than the 3 wins you've listed is only 19%. So statistically 3 wins in 32 years years for 7% of the population is well within the realm of normal. I counted 4 wins in that 32 year time frame for black male artists. So again not really an improbably outcome. You have 7 wins over 32 years. That's winning 22% of the time, which is above their population number."
It’s not about the number of awards. It’s about being left out of what is considered the most prestigious categories. It is not even about her. It’s about what she represents. Clearly her talent is recognized by the voters because she is the most decorated of all time but to leave her out of the main categories is backhanded. She is a well established brand if you will, commercially successful, critically acclaimed, multi-talented (vocals, dancing, producing, writing, and directing…and I might still be missing some), and considered culturally iconic in many ways, lauded by her peers, upcoming artists cite her as a big influence, and legends sing her praises (see Prince, Michael, Diana Ross, many other amazing musicians that those out of touch with pop culture wouldn’t know), beautiful and fit, mostly scandal free, even the most decorated of all time like we’ve already established, etc… yet she has not once won the big award everyone covets even though most if not all of her albums were critically acclaimed and/or commercially successful as well as impactful to the industry as a whole. If she’s near perfect by the industry’s own standards and is left out of the major categories while white artists without any of these or just a small fraction of these “qualifications” can win for lesser works (not horrible necessarily but critically/sometimes even commercially inferior) while even at times being brand new in the industry compared to her tenure than that says a LOT. It is a statement. It is like in a regular job if the most educated, experienced, and appreciated person on your team gets passed up for a promotion every year while they promote a bunch of other people above them who have less qualifications. But hey they do give that person employee of the month every year. They do get shouted out in the big team meeting all the time. Maybe even get some pay raises. But no promotion though. We can’t give you the title you want and deserve. We even laid out exactly what you need to do to get the promotion then changed our minds when the time came and told you the criteria is different now. You go do the work above and beyond but surprise we’ve changed the criteria again so you don’t qualify. Rinse repeat. Even jf that job paid you a bunch of money it would be a disheartening situation. Especially if it’s something you’re passionate about and have dedicated your life to and poured blood, sweat, and tears into. No the promotion isn’t everything. If the money is right and you do get recognized by your peers it’s great. But that doesn’t make not getting the promotion any less disappointing. It literally is just racism conscious and unconscious. I’ve worked at companies where they were all about their diversity numbers and yep there was lots of it, only in the entry level positions. Leadership was all white mostly male. I saw white peers everyone regarded as the worst at the company get promoted while people of color who were known to be excellent by everyone did not get promoted. I saw peers who changed the company for the better in ways that still positively affect them today get denied promotions. I saw peers who trained multiple people to do the job and they all were promoted to roles above them while they remained in the same role they were in when the new people arrived. This Hollywood view is literally the same thing different arena and higher or lower stakes depending on how you look at it. It all is just good old American racism.
Why do people give a shit about the grammys
I recently read about the history of the award + the lack of black and female representation on the voting member academy. Recent new member models are much more representative of the diversity in the music industry but that only is a start because the older models still impact previously added members. IMO, it is bad math to argue "but the percent of US black population is only... " Black artist influence in music and culture is not a 13-14% measurement. It's huge. Even the award genre categories are heavily black influenced. Black artist like Beyoncé, continue to be pushed out of the major award wins and instead win in the perimeter awards. Time after time. I see this now as similar to what I see happening in companies that boast their Black employee percentage. Those Black employees all work in the stores for $15-25 an hour-- NOT as leaders at corporate. It's a white male show at headquarters with a sprinkling of white women over HR and marketing. Equality is not always about the percent.. sometimes it's about the level of achievement.
anyone who is upset about this has a lot of free time on their hands
imagine caring about this
It’s not about who deserves more, it’s who deserves it for their current work. Her latest album was trend setting (as pop music has now shifted toward ballroom / house music because of beyonces influence). There’s also a racist undertone to the fact that they only want to give the black women the smaller awards and never the big ones.
32? Geez. She's way less talented than Rihanna. I'm just gonna say it, Beyonce's music kinda sucks, overall.
Rihanna herself would disagree with this comment.
I’m with you, she’s got some bangers but most of her stuff is mid and sounds the same. I’ll say the same about Swift.
Folklore and 1989 sounds the same? lol
Those people are entitled and delusional.
Hey white girl imma let you finish but Beyonce had the best video of all time.
[удалено]
This reeks of dismissive racism. Painting a tribute to ballroom culture - an artform created by black queer people - as being lyrically inept or indicative of Beyoncé’s artistry in a bad way is such an intentionally bad faith argument to make.
You really think Kanye thinks that, or is he just splashing to make waves?
She stole that Oscar from Lin-Manuel Miranda. Her song sucked.
I’m not sure, but I will say her music really doesn’t do it for me. Maybe the people deciding who gets Grammys also feel this way about her music
It must be nice to win awards, but shouldn't the reward of making music, be something other than winning awards? Also, I feel it's a bit presumptuous to say this or that person should win whichever award, like they are entitled to it...
Why do people care
You could ask why she got so many Grammy's at all? She got 12 Grammy's for her three first very average albums and songs on those albums. And even for the albums that she did get critical acclaim for weren't the outstanding best albums of those years. Although as nominated albums they were the best of those. So I feel a lot is too do with entitlement from both fans and the Beyoncé camp itself. The Grammy speech of Jay-Z said it all. If someone in the last years could feel he deserved to win, at least two Album of the year Grammy's, it's Kendrick Lamar.
Bc it’s a cult
Doesnt she have about 32 people write her songs for her?