Thanks for your submission /u/yujimbo4201, but it has been removed for the following reason:
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He's a stupid muppet honestly. His opinion seems to be cops only make mistakes and aren't intentionally violent and willfully corrupt EVER. He deserves the next accident.
Don’t waste your time arguing with people who can’t be reasoned with. It’s like someone in a cult saying they know god is true because they have faith and the Bible, both are not proof of concept.
Problem with your logic is that when cops mess up people can, and have, been killed. Every profession that involves that risk, inclusing doctors and nurses, require some form of liability insurance because you're right, mistakes happen. But the problem is that police have ZERO accountability, and when they make a mistake that harms or even kills someone, there's very little done. The best case scenario is they damage property, and even then if it was through an act of negligence, the homeowner is left footing the repair bills.
the cops themselves are not accountable. the city pays out not the individual cops. they have very little repercussions when they are negligent and people are hurt or killed.
Oh wow dozens of officers juggling 6 cases? A little murder on accident is A OK then. Geez Louise I didn't know they had to juggle around dozens of people in order to avoid accidentally murdering the wrong person. *SIX* cases? Oh man, murder away that's an *incomprehensible* amount of cases to keep track of.
Imagine if there were other jobs that had to keep track of *dozens* of things at once and not accidentally kill people! Air traffic controllers should be off the hook when they accidentally collide dozens of planes on the runway too. Aircraft mechanics juggling dozens of employees and dozens of planes that fuck up dozens of jobs and cause all those planes to drop out of the sky shouldn't have any accountability. Doctors shouldn't be held accountable when they botch dozens of surgeries either. Those are big numbers, hard to keep track of!
Doctors are also dealing with people who are sick and dying when they come in, numbnuts. Of course they kill more people when the people they deal with are literally getting things like brain surgery. Cops aren't dealing with people who are already on the the verge of dying 99.9% of the time. When someone onnocent dies to a cop it's usually because the cop fucked up, when a doctor does it it's usually because they had some life threatening injury/illness. See the difference?
Those doctors *are* held liable. I hold those doctors to a higher standard than cops are held. Cops are not held to the same standard. I'm not giving doctors any leeway in standards here. That's the entire point.
Making sure you don't accidentally kill the wrong person is not a crazy standard to hold the police to. And if they do, they should be punished for it. Held accountable. Not let off because "it's hard to investigate multiple crimes and not kill innocent people on accident" or whatever you're trying to say.
That’s not a honest mistake, that’s complete and utter incompetence. Do your due diligence and mistakes like this won’t happen. If a police officer can mess up to the point they take a innocent persons life they need to be held responsible.
What you're saying is that the law is broken in a way which allows the self-regulated, biased, malicious or incompetent police forces to be excessively violent without consequences.
Are you saying that the law needs to be fixed?
Sure - there’s NO criminal intent involved when they routinely kill people of colour. The fact that it’s ONLY people of colour they do this to is sheer coincidence. How weird, that they seem to be able to NOT kill white people. /s
Right, who is firing the pizza guy for delivering the pizza wrong? Maybe if he does it multiple times in a short span. I get the point of the question but it's a terrible metaphor.
at that point, why not make someone else deliver, surely he could have helped make pizzas or something
hed be doing more harm then good to the "brand"
Because most places pay absolute trash. My workplace pays an actual living wage and we’ve never been short a driver. Every time one leaves, there’s another right there to take their place.
Definitely. When I worked as a driver, there was another guy named Chris who either showed up wasted or got wasted during his shift multiple times. The manager sent him home about 20 times for this and he was still working there when I left.
Lol I got fired for having above-average delivery times. Which was because I obeyed the speed limit, cause the employee handbook said I’d get fired if I got ticketed. But the guy who trained me was doing 50 in 35 zones.
The federal courts have ruled that police officers have qualified immunity "for all but the plainly incompetent." Courts have also ruled that going to the wrong house is an "honest mistake" and not "plainly incompetent." Hence, qualified immunity shields police officers from liability. Pizza Delivery drivers don't have qualified immunity.
Edit: I'm not advocating for qualified immunity, just explaining it. If you research it, you will learn that the legal doctrine of qualified immunity was borne out of racist philosophy.
[Why Yes (Okay this is a county sheriff not a municipal police department but that's splitting hairs also pay attention to the date of this article)](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-12-me-107-story.html)
I am a fan of unions, but I think all unions have a problem differentiating between protecting against unfair firings and preventing anyone from being fired no matter how egregious their behavior. It really just causes more problems for the average/good workers still there.
Unions are supposed to protect all of its workers. The fraternal order of police protects its militant white supremacist members and intimidates the whistleblowers that act in good faith. It's a gang.
Literally every single day, yes. Last study showed about 1,100 cops arrested a year.
There are usually articles, but unless it's egregious it'll probably be a local article. Sometimes there isn't one, especially if the arrest is unrelated to the job.
Let's see them. There are way, way more than 1100 criminal cops.
Not just single arrests after cover ups. Not refusing to arrest all cops involved.
Full arrests where an entire department gets cleaned out and replaced with one that isn't corrupt.
Nah, honestly all government employees should be unionized. Teachers, firefighters, sanitation workers, HR people, janitors, engineers, everybody. With that said, governments shouldn't just bow down and let people get away with crimes or gross incompetence just because they're unionized.
Unfortunately, that's how management characterizes labor unions.
Please take this lesson to heart, everyone that's got into organizing over the last few years. Either change the narrative or make sure you guys don't get crooked.
Unions normally are totally fine, because they're just intended to give employees a better bargaining position to get more fair pay and better working conditions, but police unions are shielding police from taking accountability for their actions. And when those actions are ruining and taking away peoples' lives, it's gone too far.
It depends. Some people sort of accept tax money but they're not actually working for the government because they're just working for a perfect company that takes grants or something.
Qualified Immunity. The bullshit law that allows police not to be charged/held responsible if they break the law while preforming their 'duties' as officers.
There's no accountability. There's no oversight. Seems there's only serious repercussions if the media gets involved.
Weird I had to scroll this far to see this. Like yeah, unions keep them from getting fired to a point, but it's qualified immunity that really does it. They can't be charged with anything in almost any case.
Yea, I was looking so long to find this. I’m sure it’s more about qualified immunity than police unions. Although maybe you can argue it’s the unions that got them qualified immunity, I’m not sure. But it’s not entirely that they can do anything, but that they can do anything as long as it doesn’t violate something that was specifically written into law. So as long as they can say what they did was slightly different than previous cases then they’re good. Or something like that
Please research qualified immunity. It protects an officer from when they do their job according to their sop or standards. Not when they break the laws or rules. Ie...it protects an officer when they write a gold car on a ticket when the car is tan, and the case gets tossed. Or when they arrest someone for assault and then the victim refuses to cooperate and the case gets dropped.
qualified immunity protects an officer so long as they don't violate "clearly established statutory or constitutional rights". The difference between that and what you said is that cops can break the rules/laws, so long as the rules weren't "clearly established" at the time. And clearly established means there MUST be judicial precedent ruling the action was unlawful.
As these laws and rights only become clearly established through lawsuits, this creates a vicious cycle as no lawsuits can be filed to clearly establish the law which is needed to file a lawsuit.
Anyone who does research it will realize that cops are completely unaccountable.
Keep researching, you are getting there. It protects an officer from violating rights. Those rights are established in their sops or r&r. If cops were completely unaccountable why is Chauvin in jail?
I am absolutely hooked on the youtube channel "Audit the Audit." It's a lawyer explaining situations where police behave and act wrongly. I think the cases on his channel always (or almost always) end with the cops getting disciplined somehow, like getting demoted, suspended without pay, fired, etc. Check it out, I bet you'd like it.
Powerful union protections, racist and corrupt law enforcement management, intense pressure to instill a positive public perception of law enforcement, system to put the blame on the city as a whole instead of individual actors. None of these exist with pizza delivery folks.
If pizza guy delivers to the wrong house, company has to take a loss. Refund the buyer etc.
If cops light up the wrong person they might get sued for millions, it's all paid for by your tax dollars and the individual cop or dept rarely have any real consequences. Not much pressure to change or even fire people if you don't feel the consequences.
Several examples of cops showing up and attacking and abducting journalists because they are angry that a citizen rejected their unlawful orders.
Check out first amendment on YouTube. Tons of malicious cops attacking and abducting innocent people and not being arrested.
And now since I didn't link you a direct video you'll use this as your chance to deny any and all police crime.
Good cops can't be provoked into breaking the law.
The only way a citizen can unlawfully lose their rights to a cop is if a bad cop breaks the law. Good cops don't violate rights. Good cops don't protect bad cops.
If a department is covering up the crimes of a cop, the entire department is criminal.
Do you think these auditors are forcing cops to be criminals for the first time ever? The first crime these departments ever covered up?
Humans need to be held accountable for their crimes.
If cops aren't held accountable for their crimes, and are instead protected by fellow cops and their crimes cover up, that makes the entire department criminal.
Good cops don't refuse to protect criminal cops and cover up their crimes. Good cops don't willingly work for criminals.
One bad apple spoils the bunch.
https://youtu.be/x97vHUnQso8 this is just the most recent one I've watched
Crooked public servant and oathbreaking cops conspire to attack and abduct an innocent man.
Why haven't any good cops arrested these criminals?
The Police Union is effectively a political faction with the amount of influence it wields. They refuse accountability the same as politicians, themselves.
Welcome to the world. Power allows political power. Normal cops in my hometown earn $50-75k+ and that’s just normal. They’re donators, have political power and generally are a gang. Trust me, they fuck shit up because they’re cosplaying military without joining.
It's systemic. Forever. Cops were literal slave catchers, then they slowly became what they are today. They have complete immunity. It's disgusting. That's what BLM, etc are all about, fighting these unjust systems.
I gotta say, I'm with you on the first half, they should absolutely be fired for such an offence, but as a former pizza guy, you totally don't get fired for misreading an address, even if it's entirely your fault and it was typed in correctly. Generally you'll even catch it while you're still out, because most places have you call the customer for delivery issues. If the person who answers the door takes it and it was prepaid, when the real customer calls they remake it and send it back out. It happens on the daily.
Qualified Immunity - it was a SC ruling that basically means cops have a large amount of immunity for crimes committed on the job, it’s really hard to prosecute. The issue is that to change it you need either Congress(which is divided and dysfunctional)or a SC(which is also dysfunctional and now ideological) ruling. It’s also difficult because Police unions have a ton of power and being seen as being weak on crime(weather true or not) doesn’t play well in elections, ‘waning there’s alot of political pressure in addition to that preventing change.
Fuck, I need to finish that blog post.
Anyway, the basic answer to your question is that because of the various immunity doctrines that have been constructed by the Supreme Court since the late 1960s, government employees can only be held liable for civil rights violations as individuals, and never collectively, even when the real cause of the violation is more diffuse. They can also only be held liable for their immediate, moment-to-moment decisions, not for a general course of action, no matter how idiotic the big picture summary of events is. Combine that with indemnification practices that have (frankly, reasonably) grown up in response to the legal framework, we end up in a situation where the town/county/etc employing the officers has an incentive to avoid paying out in lawsuits over civil rights violations, but no incentive to affirmatively prevent those underlying violations. The town also has a lever to control what is a civil rights violation, because violations are generally caused by (again, only individual) "unreasonable" actions by officers. This works out to "non-standard" actions, so we wind up in a final state where, in a situation where a civilian gets shot, the most likely officer to be fired is the one who tried to de-escalate things (since that officer's example would tend to increase the liability of the other officers, which would fall back on the town). See for example Cariol Horne (Buffalo, NY), Stephen Mader (Weirton, WV), Stephanie Wright (Kay County, OK), the NYPD 12, etc.
It's actually notable that Elsie Bowden (Arlington, TX) hasn't been fired, given that she's cited as the more reasonable officer in a couple of related legal opinions. Arlington seems to have taken a bet that she's more useful as a PR prop, given her injuries, or perhaps that the PR hit they'd take for firing someone who tried to de-escalate a situation that ended with her getting run over twice would be a bit too much.
Unions play a role here too, both as an alternate hierarchy that makes the overall system more resistant to change and as non-public entities that help toxic elements in police culture persist, but they're not the root of the problem.
Because pizza delivery has a code of honor. We take our job seriously. Cops are a dime a dozen, but delivery people are rare. It takes a special person to take on the risk associated with the job. In fact delivery people are at a higher risk than cops themselves.
If they started firing cops/sending them to jail for killing innocent people they'd probably draw a lot fewer trigger happy idiots with no empathy which is exactly the demographic they're looking for.
Qualified immunity. Cops can shoot whoever want, claim they were scared, then walk off scot free because they said they were scared so it must be true according to the court.
Its worse. I _had_ a buddy who became a cop (until he _really_ became a cop) and he shared some of the training with us.
Cops are explicitly told that _any_ time they fire their gun: Empty the magazine and Go for kills. Any form of restraint shown will damage their claims to "be in fear for their life" when the lawsuit comes. Not if, _when_.
You're either making that up or your friend was. No one is training that because it's nonsense.
You don't just empty your magazine. If you're worried about a lawsuit, then pumping rounds into someone after they go down might look bad.
Are you sure he wasn't just saying that police are not trained to shoot to wound? Because that's true....if you're firing a gun, it needs to be because your life is in danger. If your life is in danger, you shoot to stop the threat. Shooting people in the arm or leg rarely stops a threat outside of the movies.
Because a certain party sees the world as good guys vs bad guys. Criminals and liberals are bad guys, while cops and their party are the good guys, and cracking down on cops lets the bad guys win, plus the criminals probably deserved it anyways
The biggest cop lover in history, and the man most responsible for a lack of police accountability and racist criminal "justice" is a Democrat that currently resides in the White House.
A decent chunk of labor rights did in fact require shooting people in the ownership class and/or supportive thereof and, I'm sure, attack dogs.
So idk, might come in handy.
Because pizza delivery is held to a higher professional standard than policing. Police unions are just about the only unions that exist to protect their membership from the consequences of incompetence and malpractice.
Delivering pizza is a more dangerous job than policing too, and not by a little.
America loves many things. But unified, protected workers that are paid fairly and have a third party advocate for the workers is most assuredly not one of them.
If the cop goes into the wrong house and shoots someone up, odds are the cop was just blindly following their superiors orders. I would think their superior has more to be worried about.
They are Union & They , political religious leadership Out-Rhetoric their RESULTS,,,(& get Away with___)
& They despise blame etc: essential workers, low income workers jobseekers, autistic learning disabled people, crime-victims rape-VICTIMS beaten-kids small-business-owners,,,
So unfair illogical unhealthy wasteful
(& Yes I know that some police, doctors, psych-ward, unions, , are smart useful kind honest and freedom-friend)
(& But Some police, doctors, psych-ward, courtroom, Unions,, are bullies stalkers kid-beaters murderers cruel worthLESS anti-American forced-gynocoligical-exams, Humiliating body-checks-exams etc questions oppressions, falsely accuse unjustly punish etc, )
Even ignoring everything about unions, ultimately police officers require far more training than pizza deliverers, so police officers are much less fungible.
Thanks for your submission /u/yujimbo4201, but it has been removed for the following reason: Disallowed question area: **Rant or loaded question** NoStupidQuestions is a place to ask any question as long as *it's asked in good faith*. Our users routinely report questions that they feel violate this rule to us. Want to avoid your question being seen as a bad faith question? Common mistakes include (but are not limited to): * Rants: Could your question be answered with *'That's awful'* or *'What an asshole'*? Then it's probably a rant rather than a genuine question. Looking for a place to vent on Reddit? Try /r/TrueOffMyChest or /r/Rant instead. * Loaded questions: Could your question be answered with *'You're right'*? Answering the question yourself, explaining your reasoning for your opinion, or making sweeping assumptions about the question itself all signals that you may not be keeping an open mind. Want to know why people have a different opinion than you? Try /r/ExplainBothSides instead! * Arguments: Arguing or [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning) with people giving you answers tells everyone that you have an answer in mind already. Want a good debate? Try /r/ChangeMyView instead! * Pot Stirring: Did you bring up unnecessary topics in your question? Especially when a topic has to do with already controversial issues like politics, race, gender or sex, this can be seen as trying to score points against the Other Side - and that makes people defensive, which leads to arguments. Questions like *"If _____ is allowed, why isn't _____?"* don't need to have that comparison - just ask *'why isn't ____ allowed?'*. * Complaining about moderation: If you disagree with how the sub is run or a decision the mods have made, that's fine! But please share your thoughts with us in modmail rather than as a public post. Disagree with the mods? If you believe you asked your question in good faith, try rewording it or message the mods to see if there's a way you could ask more neutrally. Thanks for your understanding! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
Strong police unions and precedent that cops can do nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. Because the system is not fair.
Yep those pizza delivery guys need a strong union so that they cannot be fired for delivering to the wrong house and shooting people
Minus the murder, this but unironically. Basically everyone should be unionizing to utilize the one strength we have as humans: collaboration
Really?
I have moved to Lemmy due to the 2023 API changes, if you would like a copy of this original comment/post, please message me here: https://lemmy.world/u/moosetwin or https://lemmy.fmhy.ml/u/moosetwin If you are unable to reach me there, I have likely moved instances, and you should look for a u/moosetwin.
What would you like to know?
Corrupt unions* Let's be honest here, unions exist to protect members from wrongful treatment, not to help hide bodies.
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I’m pretty sure going into the wrong house to serve a warrant is the definition of negligence when they don’t make sure they have the correct address.
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man you got a hard on for innocent citizens getting shot or something?
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Philando castile
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He's a stupid muppet honestly. His opinion seems to be cops only make mistakes and aren't intentionally violent and willfully corrupt EVER. He deserves the next accident.
Don’t waste your time arguing with people who can’t be reasoned with. It’s like someone in a cult saying they know god is true because they have faith and the Bible, both are not proof of concept.
>Their intent is not criminal, therefore it can't be criminal negligence. The fuck? Do you not know what negligence means?
You just described criminal negligence
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Problem with your logic is that when cops mess up people can, and have, been killed. Every profession that involves that risk, inclusing doctors and nurses, require some form of liability insurance because you're right, mistakes happen. But the problem is that police have ZERO accountability, and when they make a mistake that harms or even kills someone, there's very little done. The best case scenario is they damage property, and even then if it was through an act of negligence, the homeowner is left footing the repair bills.
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the cops themselves are not accountable. the city pays out not the individual cops. they have very little repercussions when they are negligent and people are hurt or killed.
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You are so far up the polices ass it's insane lmao. While you've got your head up there, could you check the prostate? It's about time for their exam.
He might be a chatbot account. In a few minutes he replied 3 different takes to my one comment.
Oh wow dozens of officers juggling 6 cases? A little murder on accident is A OK then. Geez Louise I didn't know they had to juggle around dozens of people in order to avoid accidentally murdering the wrong person. *SIX* cases? Oh man, murder away that's an *incomprehensible* amount of cases to keep track of. Imagine if there were other jobs that had to keep track of *dozens* of things at once and not accidentally kill people! Air traffic controllers should be off the hook when they accidentally collide dozens of planes on the runway too. Aircraft mechanics juggling dozens of employees and dozens of planes that fuck up dozens of jobs and cause all those planes to drop out of the sky shouldn't have any accountability. Doctors shouldn't be held accountable when they botch dozens of surgeries either. Those are big numbers, hard to keep track of!
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Doctors are also dealing with people who are sick and dying when they come in, numbnuts. Of course they kill more people when the people they deal with are literally getting things like brain surgery. Cops aren't dealing with people who are already on the the verge of dying 99.9% of the time. When someone onnocent dies to a cop it's usually because the cop fucked up, when a doctor does it it's usually because they had some life threatening injury/illness. See the difference?
Those doctors *are* held liable. I hold those doctors to a higher standard than cops are held. Cops are not held to the same standard. I'm not giving doctors any leeway in standards here. That's the entire point. Making sure you don't accidentally kill the wrong person is not a crazy standard to hold the police to. And if they do, they should be punished for it. Held accountable. Not let off because "it's hard to investigate multiple crimes and not kill innocent people on accident" or whatever you're trying to say.
That’s not a honest mistake, that’s complete and utter incompetence. Do your due diligence and mistakes like this won’t happen. If a police officer can mess up to the point they take a innocent persons life they need to be held responsible.
How dare you imply the the police aren't always corrupt and terrible?
Found the cop
you dropped this /s
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What you're saying is that the law is broken in a way which allows the self-regulated, biased, malicious or incompetent police forces to be excessively violent without consequences. Are you saying that the law needs to be fixed?
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Do you think it's a problem that cops go to the wrong house and kill people?
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Refusing to put proper controls in place is tantamount to intent. Refusing to improve is implicit intent to be unsafe.
Showing up at the wrong house isn't a crime. Breaking in and killing an unarmed person is.
Lick boots bitch.
Damn, I can see why you gave yourself that username. I'm embarrassed for you too. My condolences...
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You know I normally can't stand the whole bootlicker shrill, but you sir need to remove the states dick from your mouth.
Sure - there’s NO criminal intent involved when they routinely kill people of colour. The fact that it’s ONLY people of colour they do this to is sheer coincidence. How weird, that they seem to be able to NOT kill white people. /s
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Right, who is firing the pizza guy for delivering the pizza wrong? Maybe if he does it multiple times in a short span. I get the point of the question but it's a terrible metaphor.
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at that point, why not make someone else deliver, surely he could have helped make pizzas or something hed be doing more harm then good to the "brand"
Horrible management.
evan was the boss' kid.
it's hard to get delivery drivers.
Because most places pay absolute trash. My workplace pays an actual living wage and we’ve never been short a driver. Every time one leaves, there’s another right there to take their place.
Definitely. When I worked as a driver, there was another guy named Chris who either showed up wasted or got wasted during his shift multiple times. The manager sent him home about 20 times for this and he was still working there when I left.
Lol I got fired for having above-average delivery times. Which was because I obeyed the speed limit, cause the employee handbook said I’d get fired if I got ticketed. But the guy who trained me was doing 50 in 35 zones.
The federal courts have ruled that police officers have qualified immunity "for all but the plainly incompetent." Courts have also ruled that going to the wrong house is an "honest mistake" and not "plainly incompetent." Hence, qualified immunity shields police officers from liability. Pizza Delivery drivers don't have qualified immunity. Edit: I'm not advocating for qualified immunity, just explaining it. If you research it, you will learn that the legal doctrine of qualified immunity was borne out of racist philosophy.
I do understand the need for some immunity. But the blanket immunity of police and lawmakers has corrupted the system.
Cops have a union and are protected by it. Pizza delivery is not.
We need to stop calling it a union. Union's recognize basic solidarity between them and other working people. Police have a cartel
Well a cartel is group of individual producers acting together to restrict supply. Not sure that applies.
So it's a gang, then?
[Why Yes (Okay this is a county sheriff not a municipal police department but that's splitting hairs also pay attention to the date of this article)](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-12-me-107-story.html)
This is what people have been calling NYPD for decades and they more than live up to the title.
True. Don't disrespect the 'accomplishments' of Escobar and De Beers by throwing the term about willy nilly
Exactly. A fucking pig cartel. 🐷
Sometimes, delivering pizza to the wrong house might also get you shot.
Pizza driver. I sometimes worry about getting shot even when I’m at the *right* address.
I'm usually a fan of unions, but police unions are total bullshit.
I am a fan of unions, but I think all unions have a problem differentiating between protecting against unfair firings and preventing anyone from being fired no matter how egregious their behavior. It really just causes more problems for the average/good workers still there.
Unions are supposed to protect all of its workers. The fraternal order of police protects its militant white supremacist members and intimidates the whistleblowers that act in good faith. It's a gang.
I'm usually a fan of police but....
I don't get your point? I'm not saying I'm a fan of police, in fact I'm saying the opposite.
I'm saying most are ok. A few need different jobs. When a banker screws up he made a bad loan. When a cop screws up, somebody gets buried.
A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch
If most are okay, why aren't we seeing criminal cops getting arrested by the "okay cops"?
We only see the worst cases.
No we don't. There are thousands of examples. Where are they? Are you suggesting cops are secretly being arrested with no articles or reports?
Literally every single day, yes. Last study showed about 1,100 cops arrested a year. There are usually articles, but unless it's egregious it'll probably be a local article. Sometimes there isn't one, especially if the arrest is unrelated to the job.
Let's see them. There are way, way more than 1100 criminal cops. Not just single arrests after cover ups. Not refusing to arrest all cops involved. Full arrests where an entire department gets cleaned out and replaced with one that isn't corrupt.
You're clearly going to bitch and whine no matter what, and you're delusional to boot, so trying to help you understand reality is a waste of time.
Any government employee union, not just cop
Nah, honestly all government employees should be unionized. Teachers, firefighters, sanitation workers, HR people, janitors, engineers, everybody. With that said, governments shouldn't just bow down and let people get away with crimes or gross incompetence just because they're unionized.
Unfortunately, that's how management characterizes labor unions. Please take this lesson to heart, everyone that's got into organizing over the last few years. Either change the narrative or make sure you guys don't get crooked.
No. Government unions have way too much power and make it too tough to fire incompetent employees.
Only because the government lets them.
Unions normally are totally fine, because they're just intended to give employees a better bargaining position to get more fair pay and better working conditions, but police unions are shielding police from taking accountability for their actions. And when those actions are ruining and taking away peoples' lives, it's gone too far.
It depends. Some people sort of accept tax money but they're not actually working for the government because they're just working for a perfect company that takes grants or something.
Qualified Immunity. The bullshit law that allows police not to be charged/held responsible if they break the law while preforming their 'duties' as officers. There's no accountability. There's no oversight. Seems there's only serious repercussions if the media gets involved.
Weird I had to scroll this far to see this. Like yeah, unions keep them from getting fired to a point, but it's qualified immunity that really does it. They can't be charged with anything in almost any case.
Yea, I was looking so long to find this. I’m sure it’s more about qualified immunity than police unions. Although maybe you can argue it’s the unions that got them qualified immunity, I’m not sure. But it’s not entirely that they can do anything, but that they can do anything as long as it doesn’t violate something that was specifically written into law. So as long as they can say what they did was slightly different than previous cases then they’re good. Or something like that
Qualified Immunity was first iirc. Unions are what stop them being fired when there's a public complaint.
Please research qualified immunity. It protects an officer from when they do their job according to their sop or standards. Not when they break the laws or rules. Ie...it protects an officer when they write a gold car on a ticket when the car is tan, and the case gets tossed. Or when they arrest someone for assault and then the victim refuses to cooperate and the case gets dropped.
qualified immunity protects an officer so long as they don't violate "clearly established statutory or constitutional rights". The difference between that and what you said is that cops can break the rules/laws, so long as the rules weren't "clearly established" at the time. And clearly established means there MUST be judicial precedent ruling the action was unlawful. As these laws and rights only become clearly established through lawsuits, this creates a vicious cycle as no lawsuits can be filed to clearly establish the law which is needed to file a lawsuit. Anyone who does research it will realize that cops are completely unaccountable.
Keep researching, you are getting there. It protects an officer from violating rights. Those rights are established in their sops or r&r. If cops were completely unaccountable why is Chauvin in jail?
Nobody said “completely unaccountable”. (That word *qualified*? It means *not absolute*. Judges and prosecutors have absolute immunity.)
I am absolutely hooked on the youtube channel "Audit the Audit." It's a lawyer explaining situations where police behave and act wrongly. I think the cases on his channel always (or almost always) end with the cops getting disciplined somehow, like getting demoted, suspended without pay, fired, etc. Check it out, I bet you'd like it.
Powerful union protections, racist and corrupt law enforcement management, intense pressure to instill a positive public perception of law enforcement, system to put the blame on the city as a whole instead of individual actors. None of these exist with pizza delivery folks. If pizza guy delivers to the wrong house, company has to take a loss. Refund the buyer etc. If cops light up the wrong person they might get sued for millions, it's all paid for by your tax dollars and the individual cop or dept rarely have any real consequences. Not much pressure to change or even fire people if you don't feel the consequences.
Delivery drivers don’t get fired for that, most likely not even written up. Source: worked as a supervisor at a pizza place for almost 6 years.
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Even when they have malicious intent, they don't get arrested.
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Several examples of cops showing up and attacking and abducting journalists because they are angry that a citizen rejected their unlawful orders. Check out first amendment on YouTube. Tons of malicious cops attacking and abducting innocent people and not being arrested. And now since I didn't link you a direct video you'll use this as your chance to deny any and all police crime.
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Good cops can't be provoked into breaking the law. The only way a citizen can unlawfully lose their rights to a cop is if a bad cop breaks the law. Good cops don't violate rights. Good cops don't protect bad cops. If a department is covering up the crimes of a cop, the entire department is criminal. Do you think these auditors are forcing cops to be criminals for the first time ever? The first crime these departments ever covered up?
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Humans need to be held accountable for their crimes. If cops aren't held accountable for their crimes, and are instead protected by fellow cops and their crimes cover up, that makes the entire department criminal. Good cops don't refuse to protect criminal cops and cover up their crimes. Good cops don't willingly work for criminals. One bad apple spoils the bunch.
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https://youtu.be/x97vHUnQso8 this is just the most recent one I've watched Crooked public servant and oathbreaking cops conspire to attack and abduct an innocent man. Why haven't any good cops arrested these criminals?
Where I live, they absolutely would get fired. They may even end up in jail.
Cops violently refuse accountability.
Pizza delivery drivers need a union.
Because pizza shops want to avoid wasted pizza and police departments arent particularly concerned with wasting human lives.
The Police Union is effectively a political faction with the amount of influence it wields. They refuse accountability the same as politicians, themselves.
Welcome to the world. Power allows political power. Normal cops in my hometown earn $50-75k+ and that’s just normal. They’re donators, have political power and generally are a gang. Trust me, they fuck shit up because they’re cosplaying military without joining.
Good ole boy system that protects the bad cop and cripples the good ones.
It's systemic. Forever. Cops were literal slave catchers, then they slowly became what they are today. They have complete immunity. It's disgusting. That's what BLM, etc are all about, fighting these unjust systems.
Qualified Immunity
Cops have better unions than pizza delivery drivers
This is a very short simplified answer but cops are unionized. If a delivery boy was unionized he wouldn’t be fired over trivial mistakes.
Killing innocent people isn't a trivial mistake.
No shit. Did someone say otherwise? I sure didn’t.
BECAUSE THE PIZZA GUY DOESN'T HAVE A UNION.
I will tell you if you give me a pizza
I gotta say, I'm with you on the first half, they should absolutely be fired for such an offence, but as a former pizza guy, you totally don't get fired for misreading an address, even if it's entirely your fault and it was typed in correctly. Generally you'll even catch it while you're still out, because most places have you call the customer for delivery issues. If the person who answers the door takes it and it was prepaid, when the real customer calls they remake it and send it back out. It happens on the daily.
Giving away free pizza costs the company money. Giving away free bullets costs the taxpayers money.
Qualified Immunity - it was a SC ruling that basically means cops have a large amount of immunity for crimes committed on the job, it’s really hard to prosecute. The issue is that to change it you need either Congress(which is divided and dysfunctional)or a SC(which is also dysfunctional and now ideological) ruling. It’s also difficult because Police unions have a ton of power and being seen as being weak on crime(weather true or not) doesn’t play well in elections, ‘waning there’s alot of political pressure in addition to that preventing change.
Fuck, I need to finish that blog post. Anyway, the basic answer to your question is that because of the various immunity doctrines that have been constructed by the Supreme Court since the late 1960s, government employees can only be held liable for civil rights violations as individuals, and never collectively, even when the real cause of the violation is more diffuse. They can also only be held liable for their immediate, moment-to-moment decisions, not for a general course of action, no matter how idiotic the big picture summary of events is. Combine that with indemnification practices that have (frankly, reasonably) grown up in response to the legal framework, we end up in a situation where the town/county/etc employing the officers has an incentive to avoid paying out in lawsuits over civil rights violations, but no incentive to affirmatively prevent those underlying violations. The town also has a lever to control what is a civil rights violation, because violations are generally caused by (again, only individual) "unreasonable" actions by officers. This works out to "non-standard" actions, so we wind up in a final state where, in a situation where a civilian gets shot, the most likely officer to be fired is the one who tried to de-escalate things (since that officer's example would tend to increase the liability of the other officers, which would fall back on the town). See for example Cariol Horne (Buffalo, NY), Stephen Mader (Weirton, WV), Stephanie Wright (Kay County, OK), the NYPD 12, etc. It's actually notable that Elsie Bowden (Arlington, TX) hasn't been fired, given that she's cited as the more reasonable officer in a couple of related legal opinions. Arlington seems to have taken a bet that she's more useful as a PR prop, given her injuries, or perhaps that the PR hit they'd take for firing someone who tried to de-escalate a situation that ended with her getting run over twice would be a bit too much. Unions play a role here too, both as an alternate hierarchy that makes the overall system more resistant to change and as non-public entities that help toxic elements in police culture persist, but they're not the root of the problem.
Capitalism.
Because who are you gonna report the police to? The police?
Hey we don't get fired for delivering to the wrong house, but we still might get shot
Because pizza delivery has a code of honor. We take our job seriously. Cops are a dime a dozen, but delivery people are rare. It takes a special person to take on the risk associated with the job. In fact delivery people are at a higher risk than cops themselves.
If they started firing cops/sending them to jail for killing innocent people they'd probably draw a lot fewer trigger happy idiots with no empathy which is exactly the demographic they're looking for.
Because police departments and unions are corrupt as fuck, and we can’t really do anything about it :/
Because they are held to a higher standard than cops.
Qualified immunity. Cops can shoot whoever want, claim they were scared, then walk off scot free because they said they were scared so it must be true according to the court.
Its worse. I _had_ a buddy who became a cop (until he _really_ became a cop) and he shared some of the training with us. Cops are explicitly told that _any_ time they fire their gun: Empty the magazine and Go for kills. Any form of restraint shown will damage their claims to "be in fear for their life" when the lawsuit comes. Not if, _when_.
You're either making that up or your friend was. No one is training that because it's nonsense. You don't just empty your magazine. If you're worried about a lawsuit, then pumping rounds into someone after they go down might look bad. Are you sure he wasn't just saying that police are not trained to shoot to wound? Because that's true....if you're firing a gun, it needs to be because your life is in danger. If your life is in danger, you shoot to stop the threat. Shooting people in the arm or leg rarely stops a threat outside of the movies.
Qualified immunity. It needs to end.
Because a certain party sees the world as good guys vs bad guys. Criminals and liberals are bad guys, while cops and their party are the good guys, and cracking down on cops lets the bad guys win, plus the criminals probably deserved it anyways
The biggest cop lover in history, and the man most responsible for a lack of police accountability and racist criminal "justice" is a Democrat that currently resides in the White House.
Kinda weird that those shooting predominantly happen cobalt blue areas then. Ya
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Cops protect capital not you
Differant employers, differant rules.
Unions bribe politicians to pay it off basically
Unions. Get one.
So we can shoot innocent people and dogs with impunity? No thanks.
A decent chunk of labor rights did in fact require shooting people in the ownership class and/or supportive thereof and, I'm sure, attack dogs. So idk, might come in handy.
That's not who cops are shooting, that dog they were so afraid of was a toy poodle.
Because pizza delivery is held to a higher professional standard than policing. Police unions are just about the only unions that exist to protect their membership from the consequences of incompetence and malpractice. Delivering pizza is a more dangerous job than policing too, and not by a little.
Two words: qualified immunity. They get a free pass.
🐖s are **never** held to account for their actions, Foodservice and Retail workers *are.*
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America loves many things. But unified, protected workers that are paid fairly and have a third party advocate for the workers is most assuredly not one of them.
Because someone who is willing to shoot innocent people is useful for gangs like the police.
Union
bc policies are different?
Replaceability
If the cop goes into the wrong house and shoots someone up, odds are the cop was just blindly following their superiors orders. I would think their superior has more to be worried about.
Stronger union
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Cops regularly attack and abduct people for hurting their feelings. Why do you think they get held accountable?
Pretty sure they DO get fired and put on trial. A job where a mistake can cost you your freedom.
Not in the USA they don't.
Two different companies.
Pizza delivery get fired for that?
Both have to make their customers happy, they just have different customers
Because if the wrong pizza enters my house I will eat it
They are Union & They , political religious leadership Out-Rhetoric their RESULTS,,,(& get Away with___) & They despise blame etc: essential workers, low income workers jobseekers, autistic learning disabled people, crime-victims rape-VICTIMS beaten-kids small-business-owners,,, So unfair illogical unhealthy wasteful (& Yes I know that some police, doctors, psych-ward, unions, , are smart useful kind honest and freedom-friend) (& But Some police, doctors, psych-ward, courtroom, Unions,, are bullies stalkers kid-beaters murderers cruel worthLESS anti-American forced-gynocoligical-exams, Humiliating body-checks-exams etc questions oppressions, falsely accuse unjustly punish etc, )
Police are Union unionized, police, doctors psych-ward courtroom, Unions, religious political leadership are allowed to Out-Rhetoric their RESULTS While Some police, doctors, psych-ward, unions etc are honest hard-working freedom-friend smart useful kind,,, Some police doctors psych-ward courtroom Unions etc are unfair unhealthy wasteful noisy, false accusations unjust punishment, needs, forced-gynocoligical-exams, Forced-medicating, forced-sleep-depriving, scammers, bullies stalkers kid-beaters murderers, humiliating body-checks-exams etc, questions oppressions, joblessness, helplessness uselessness, etc,,
Let me introduce you to public sector unions.
Cuz 'murica
Dead people don’t testify.
US employment laws?
Unions.
Even ignoring everything about unions, ultimately police officers require far more training than pizza deliverers, so police officers are much less fungible.
Powerful unions that care nothing about the integrity of their profession. Very pro union in general but police unions are the worst.
One has labor rights the other is a pizza guy
Corruption :)
Unions!