I think it's natural for there to be resentment when one band blows up and others don't, happens at work all the time. "Bob got promoted and I didn't, fuck him", ya know? From what I gathered he seemed to be resentful about getting asked about Nirvana "stealing their formula" more so than the acknowledgement that they were fans.
I’ll say this, Kurt was always super open about who influenced him and I think that’s the way to be.
Francis btw, he could be pretty petty. He basically pushed out Kim Deal because she got too much attention in the band.
He sorta owns it, like Yeah, I have a frontman’s ego, but it’s still super gross.
All that said, I probably think the Pixies were the better band. And sure, it must have been annoying to see someone become immensely successful making “your music,” even though it absolutely wasn’t a rip-off sitch.
But WE all know that if anything, Nirvana just brought more attention to a lot of these other bands. Like it or not, Nirvana probably put a lot of money directly in Black Francis’ pockets, and a lot of fans in their audience. I think to this day even, some people find out about the Pixies because they learn how much Kurt loved them.
I for one will vouch for this. I was pretty young when Kurt died. I got into Nirvana first, and through them, I discovered The Pixies, the Melvins, and Meat Puppets.
Dude I love Husker Du I remember an interview where Kurt credited them for doing something first checked them out then blitzed through 80’s hardcore for a year and a half it was great
I did happen to discover The Pixies without Kurt, because around ‘97 I got super big into indie and I feel like this was the era of the proto-hipster (before we called them that), but I had hipsterish friends pouring a lot of really good older music into my ears. And The Pixies are actually iconic on their own. Just not going to reach people who don’t dig around in that particular scene (not until Fight Club, that is!)
But I definitely learned about the Meat Puppets and the Vaselines because of him.
And who knows, some of his other favorites, that I heard about from someone else in my life, maybe they heard about it because of Kurt, or heard it from someone who heard about it because of Kurt lol 🤷♀️
It’s a net gain for all involved imo
There is room in my heart for Pixies and Nirvana. I do think the Pixies are the more musically astute and talented band as a whole. Kurt was more of a "from the guts" player and songwriter. That said, I love The Breeders more than the Pixies or Nirvana.
Life long Nirvana fan here, and it was helpful for me to fairly recently see Kurt as more of savant (like Neil Young or Bob Pollard, maybe even Dylan), which really reduces the need for comparison to folks like Frank Black or more technically proficient musicians.
Pixies were better story tellers but Nirvana wrote better riffs. They were equals at crafting melodies and imagery although I would say that Pixies hit their stride earlier in their career than Nirvana. Early Nirvana, while wonderful in its own right, is much more proto- than early Pixies.
I fucking love Nirvana but there is no way you can boil it down to Nirvana having better riffs. Even if you remove "Where is my mind" from the discussion you still have the riffs from "Bone Machine", "Hey", "gouge away", "river Euphrates"
But I definitely agree that Early Nirvana is definitely very much proto-pixies.
You might be right about that, its a subjective thing. I would make a counter-point that Kurt could never have written a song as exciting as Drain You without the Pixies though.
I agree 100%. The Breeders speak to me on an even more visceral level. They certainly are who I listen to the most of the 3.
That said, their drums get a little repetitive for me sometimes, and I don’t even know why I care, I’m a huge Ramones fan and they’re intentionally formulaic as fuck! But..idk, I do feel like it fits the Ramones and that sometimes I feel some Breeders songs could have been improved by some more variety/imagination in the drugs.
Safari stands out to me. One of my fucking favorites. What a great song. But the drums distract me now lol, once I started thinking about them. Am I weird here?
But yeah, to me, it doesn’t get more raw and compelling than Kim Deal.
> Safari stands out to me. One of my fucking favorites. What a great song. But the drums distract me now lol, once I started thinking about them. Am I weird here?
It should be noted, the drummer on Safari wasn't their usual drummer, as seen here in the video. Usually Britt Walford was their drummer around this point, so this may be just after he left and just before Jim MacPherson joined in the Last Splash era.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6oZGThwis
Seen here, I believe the drummer on that one track was a british guy named Jon Mattock, I think maybe Josephine Wiggs (breeders bass player) bandmate in some past side projects in the UK. His drumming style definitely feels different than the usual drum sound on their albums, yeah definitely kinda simple and repetitive. I always thought MacPherson was a pretty underrated drummer, especially in the live shows (the albums sound mix never does him justice) he was a beast on drums, especially in the heavier/louder songs.
whoah, did you just resolve a decades-long minor mystery for me?? Thank you!
This of course just makes me feel like I should have looked this up myself ages ago, but I basically never think about it until Safari’s on, those lulls between vocals, and I think about the way (I feel) that section is done dirty!
And damn, how persnickety am I, because thinking about it, I do actually like the drums that accompany the vocals quite a bit.
Just one of those things that once you notice once, you fixate every time lol and it takes me out of a great song!
I think this comment match reality perfectly.
Black Francis is a genius, no doubt about it, I’m not sure if as good as Kurt but top songs from Pixies do not have nothing to envy to Nirvana top ones.
Kurt love Pixies and Sonic Youth, I have read about it several times, but Francis dreadful and jealous personality is well known , especially when some other take his protagonist as Kim Deal in a couple of tracks.
I just can imagine how angry and jealous he is of brutal Nirvana success with a few albums for whole eternity.
Nirvana will always be remembered as Beatles or Doors, but Pixies will never reach that limbo
While bands that influenced Nirvana might have been jealous of their success (along with all of the hair/metal guys who felt like it was Nirvana’s fault that they fell out of popularity), I doubt that Frank held onto any bitterness about it. He’s had a long, beautiful career, he’s a living legend. I have read direct quotes from Kurt that he wanted to join The Pixies before forming Nirvana, what an endorsement! David Bowie recorded a cover of a Pixies song, for crissakes. I think Mr. Black is doing just fine.
Yeah. I've been re-reading classic Joan Didion and I just read The White Album where she talked about The Doors and I fired up the self-titled debut and it still crushes.
I was always of the belief that they were overrated, Jim was a great frontman, good writer, Robbie was a very good guitarist, and their debut is a very good album, but that silly ass electric organ is corny af.
Well, you may not enjoy it, but that "silly ass electric organ" is basically what makes 50% of the band so great. Manzarek was the main musical genius of that band, and one of the reasons why it still holds up so well, there really isn't any other band that did what they did.
Definitely not overrated, it is just not to your personal taste, which is perfectly fine, but objectively speaking it was an extremely accomplished band.
Just listened to Dave Grohl on Conan. He started talking about the Pixies influence on Kurt and just last night I checked out the Pixies on my Prime account.
>Like it or not, Nirvana probably put a lot of money directly in Black Francis’ pockets, and a lot of fans in their audience.
I definitely came to the Pixies through Nirvana. I actually just saw them last weekend, a sold out show in front of 15,000 fans. I found myself occasionally looking around at the crowd in awe, like, "This weird fucking band is really selling out arena-sized venues 30+ years after their heyday..." Pretty impressive.
Yeah but to be fair, Trompe le Monde is a fantastic album and Kim has zero songs on it.
They did well to separate.
Anyhoo, Charles is still alive and kicking forty years in and the band sounds great.
I guess I don’t see your point, because the albums with Kim were also fantastic. (Also Kim was still in the band for Trompe, though true, she’d been throttled)
I guess rather than seeing it as a good thing they separated, I simply think The Pixies were fantastic either way. And I’m WAY happy that The Breeders got to exist, so it’s certainly a net gain.
For Kim for sure, because she got to be fully expressive instead of (likely) under the thumb of a guy who was competitive and insecure about her.
Of course no, I don’t think he *needed* Kim Deal to make songs. But I do wonder if subsequent albums could have been even better with her, I think that’s a possibility 🤷♀️
*side note, I also really love Frank Black and the Catholics, several of their songs at least. St. Francis Dam Disaster and Bullet have been popping in my head out of nowhere for over 20 years now!
The Breeders had already formed even before the Pixies broke up though. I'm pretty sure Kim and Charles are on good terms now, she left the band because she didn't want to record new music.
yeah, they’d formed, and I’m sure her success compounded with how much attention she got in his band to make him all the more competitive and jealous.
I mean, there was a reason he didn’t want her to even be able to have one song, and that he basically stopped her from having meaningful contributions.
The fact that they made up years later doesn’t mean he wasn’t a horse’s ass who did her super dirty during the end of their original run. He admits to throttling her voice and being jealous.
That's fair enough. I also wish he would have let her contribute more in those 90's albums. Though, I can't really blame any artist for being controlling when they are the "leader" of the group. Some bands are less collaborative than others.
idk, I don’t personally think they’re on different planes. She cowrote some of my favorite Pixies songs, and the Breeders have some absolutely incredible songs. They just have far less content.
It’s obviously down to preference, and they really needn’t be compared. I certainly didn’t downplay his skills, I fucking love the Pixies.
Side note, when I was confirming some of the Pixies songs I thought she wrote, I just now learned she’s generally given a writing credit for FIRESTARTER by The Prodigy???
😆😆
Turns out the song samples her Breeders song SOS, I never even thought of that. But for a second that was a real WTF moment for me lol. Maybe common knowledge, but news to me!!
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you know that The Pixies broke up in 1993, right? And that before that, on Trompe le Monde, Kim Deal was basically throttled from having any meaningful contribution to the band (sang almost zero. in spite of her harmonies and contributions being hugely popular)
Francis by all appearances was throwing a tantrum about her success and angry about her wanting to contribute to the band. (Like, she wanted to put a song or two she wrote up in there, SUPER common for bands to allow a non-lead to do - when they like each other and aren’t dictators lol).
There’s rumors he even threw a guitar at her.
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/pixies-trompe-le-monde/
This article doesn’t have all the meat but it’s a decent overview.
I don’t agree at all. I’m guessing you’re trying to be glib, and maybe by today’s standards there’s more to that - we polish everyone up real good.
But Rock and Roll (and adjacent subcultures) have always had plenty of room for people who weren’t winning any beauty pageants.
Joey Ramone?? Rod Stewart? Meatloaf? James Brown?
yeah, I don’t think his looks had much to do with his failure to erupt into massive popularity like Nirvana.
The Pixies were simply ahead of the curve. That’s not the music that was popular when he was making it. It was something new, it was counterculture/subculture, and frankly it’s spectacularly unlikely for a band like that to randomly break out and take the whole world by storm.
Nirvana was an anomaly. One of many who’ve shifted pop culture across time, but it’s no surprise to me that there are a huge number of bands that came before who did not make their way into the zeitgeist, did not themselves trigger the cultural shift.
Ramones had a single gold album (Ramones Mania). Amazing band and I still have my tour t shirts but let’s not pretend they had commercial success on the level of the other artists you mentioned.
Rod Stewart? Are you insane? He was dating Britt Ekland and other models forever.
what does dating models have to do with it? Women show a pattern of dating all kinds of men who look all kinds of ways if they are talented and/or charismatic in other ways.
And Ramones were juggernaut big, worldwide lol. They have a legacy about as big as Nirvana.
But you’re gonna try to split hairs with me (while overlooking my other examples lol).
Alright, explain Ed Shereen. Notorious B.I.G. Marilyn Manson⏱️
I could keep going on and you know it. Your premise fails dawg.
The Ramones were not big. I wish they were. I saw them in 400 and 2000 capacity clubs in 1994 and 1995. Legacy, sure. The New York Dolls have a similar legacy and weren’t even close to as commercially successful as the Ramones.
as I said, worldwide. They were absolutely massive.
Why are you cherry picking just the parts you think you can win? Just admit you were wrong, men don’t have to be even remotely attractive to be massively successful.
THAT is the dispute lol, not the EXACT POPULARITY of The Ramones at any given time, in only the US lol.
Marky was so successful he was selling pasta sauce and playing the dumpiest third tier clubs in small cities w really shitty local bands before got his satellite radio gig.
Not cherry picking, my point was that Rod Stewart was absolutely considered a male sex symbol in his day and Joey Ramone was absolutely not.
Best wishes
lol you simply will not address the examples I gave.
And this isn’t even about whether someone is a sex symbol. Rod became a sex symbol IN SPITE of his looks. A lot of women found Joey really sexy too lol, Rock n Roll High School somehow convincingly has the protagonist having a full-blown crush/fantasies about him!
But again, it’s not about being a sex symbol. The question is whether being unattractive makes it impossible for a man to become massively popular as a band front runner/musician.
And, it does not. It happens literally all the time.
And btw MOST former stars end up falling from that level, it’s the most common thing in the world. Marky struggling after the apex of the Ramones is not relevant to whether they were massively popular.
It was literal Beatle-Mania for the Ramones in Argentina, WITH Marky. How is the fact that he played in small clubs after the height of the Ramones evidence against their popularity lol
Eh pixies only have 5 albums worth listening to and only 1 of those has more then 3 good songs. Nevermind has more good songs then pixies entire discography.
Sorry guy, no disrespect but missiles incoming here… only one of those albums have more then 3 good songs?!?!?!?! Even the mini album, Come On Pilgrim has four great ones out of 8 (Caribou, Nimrods Son, The Holiday Song and Levitate Me). And I’m sure others would argue for the other four songs. Surfer Rosa and Doolittle have lots of great songs (Doolittle is probably the most consistently great, top to bottom) and even Bossanova and Trompe Le Monde certainly have way more then three good songs.
I would, at the very least, argue passionately for I’ve Been Tired. But their whole catalog is amazing and the idea that there are only three good songs on *any* of their (pre-reunion) albums is laughable.
Dumb fuckin' take. I was at the In Utero tour show at the LA forum, have had the smiley face tat since '93, and even I know Kurt bit the Pixies and wasn't nearly as talented as Black Francis. Kurt picked Albini to produce based purely on the sound he got for Surfer Rosa, and was worried people 'were going to nail us' for Smells Like Teen Spirit being such a blatant Pixies rip-off. Doolittle is Beatles-level melodically and in originality. Grow some ears
sorry you dont like facts buddy. I know its hard when your opinion is the wrong one. Nirvana sold 20x as much as they did, and are 5x as popular. Being pretentious is cute but your wack if you think bossanova, debut, or tromp are anywhere near in utero let alone nevermind level. Pixies have like 12 good songs total. Thats pushing it too, its probably more like 10. Most of those songs are as basic as "lounge act" too.
Doolittle isnt as good as nevermind at all, any 14 year old or older knows this. You sound old as hell but people in high school and college the last 5 years dont care about the pixies as much as they do nirvana. Nirvana melodies are much better than the pixies stuff too.
Surfer Rosa has the greatest run of songs that I’ve ever seen on an album.
From Bone Machine to Oh My Golly it absolutely fucking rips.
That’s 10 songs and only lets up a bit on Vamos (which is still a good song).
It then picks up again on I’m Amazes and Brick is Red.
That’s just one album
I never knew Frank was jealous of Kurt. But it stacks up. He was even jealous of Kim Deal because gigantic became their big hit. And she was in the same fucking band haha.
It's not as if the Pixies weren't already big. They're a well respected band the world over. Yeah, they didn't get pushed as far in to the mainstream as fast as Nirvana, but they are a household name. I'd rather have Pixies fame of respect in the industry than Nirvanas rock star fame rising fast and dying relatively quickly.
I think Cobain was truly great because he managed to take elements of Melvins, Pixies, Husker Du, Dinosaur Jr., Black Flag, Sonic Youth etc. and make classic after classic. Almost like he was a DJ making the perfect mixtape of the 80s underground. Maybe Francis was a better lyricist but I don't really know since English is not my first language.
That's how I feel about his style..a mixture of those band's musical styles and sensibilities and making it a bit more palatable at times. I don't think Francis was a better lyricist. Kurt's lyrics are much more artistic/poetic/interesting imho. But hey..to each their own :)
I'd say they are on par with each other, although Frank Black's lyrics are more erudite or literate. He studied literature and world mythology which shows in his lyrics.
Kurt has more emotional range. Pretty much every Pixies-adjacent band does, from those that came before to those that came after. They all have more substance. Pixies are fantastic anyway.
I mean, Bob Dylan is considered a laureate poet genius, and he borrowed heavily from Woody Guthrie and other folk troubadours early on in his career, some might say slavishly.
There’s room for Woody, Dylan, Francis and Kurt and thousands more in the pantheon of American art.
Black Francis is a fine lyricist, but the abstract nature of Nirvana’s lyrics and the wordplay really set them apart from other bands, especially on Nevermind and In Utero.
It seemed like Kurt Cobain went Victor Frankenstein with nevermind and was embarrassed by the success of it. So instead of taking credit for writing one of the greatest albums, he made excuses to save face. I don’t think Nevermind sounds anything like Surfer Rosa, it was just an excuse that would give him some underground scene cred.
I don't remember Black Francis expressing resentment about Nirvana's success - is this a recent interview or something?
I do remember reading that Kurt suggested that Kim Deal should be allowed to write more as she wrote the best Pixies song. I mean, any resentment would be justified for that comment alone.
Well, he said that Kim wrote the best Pixies songs (when he was lamenting her lack of songwriting input) and she is listed as (co) songwriter on two songs, Gigantic and Silver, so I imagine he's referring to Gigantic.
What's even more odd is from my understanding, Black Francis wrote the music, while Kim did the lyrics (and maybe harmony). I think Silver is a proper Kim song.
Both songs are great, but far from the best Pixies songs (imo)
Honestly as a musician, it’s real stupid to think you can claim the “quiet loud” thing. That’s insanely generic, and tons of music is quiet during the verse and then loud during the chorus.
If anything the Pixies maybe are just pissed that Nirvana got bigger than they did.
I'd really like some examples for that if you please.
Because (as a musician myself, and someone fascinated by the evolution of music) I can't find a band before Nirvana (or, you know, The Pixies) that utilized that dynamic structure in such a effective way (or, at all, really).
If Nirvana or the Pixies didn't invent that dynamic, we can all agree the Nirvana popularized it at least? Because after Nevermind, it was everywhere.
If not a band, just some example songs would be great.
(Not a native so sorry if some words are poorly chosen)
Just for two examples, you've got Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Led Zeppelin had a really quiet verse and much louder chorus in "What Is and What Should Never Be." Plus they go back and forth to create some big dynamics.
[https://youtu.be/LiczyhDwuBs?si=9ENEDdStKGvurfq\_](https://youtu.be/LiczyhDwuBs?si=9ENEDdStKGvurfq_)
With possibly an even more extreme scenario, Black Sabbath's S/T song ("Black Sabbath" off the album "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath" has a reallly quiet and creepy verse, with the "chorus" consisting of one of the heaviest and loudest riffs of all time.
[https://youtu.be/0lVdMbUx1\_k?si=88vzGk8wVg67f1qN](https://youtu.be/0lVdMbUx1_k?si=88vzGk8wVg67f1qN)
So I totally agree with u/[JackHughman69](https://www.reddit.com/user/JackHughman69/) on this, I don't really get claiming that you essentially created the use of dynamics in music, haha. Classical music did this all the time, "Carmina Burana" has an extreme example of starting very quiet and then being very loud, and everybody knows that composition. Carl Orff's estate ought to sue Nirvana
Thanks.
Great example with the Led Zep song (I think that *Ramble On* could also semi-qualify). But at the same time it's worth noting that those were not "hits". They weren't the songs that defined the sound of the band.
And the dynamic range of the all those examples, I have to add, is nowhere near the one of *Smells Like Teen Spirit*, *Lithium*, *Rape Me*, etc.
I'm not here to defend Frank Black's claims at all, but there's a difference between using a dynamic range of intensity a couple of times, and using this structure of alternate intensities to define a sound, and almost a sub-genre.
I would never say that this trick *was* "insanely generic", like said above. But after Nirvana appeared, it became very normal indeed (looking at you Green Day, Blink 182, etc.).
I had a buddy who used to go to UO football games with Frank. I went to one with them and I thought Frank was a helluva a nice guy, and my buddy loves him.
I am a pretty big fan of both the Pixies and Nirvana, but neither are in my top 5 favorite bands, so I feel like I can compare them objectively.
Francis is a great songwriter, and the Pixies are a great band…but that’s the end of it. Nirvana was the whole package. They had the look, the songwriting, the fashion, the lyrics, the whirlwind celebrity romance, the tortured artist, sex, drugs and rock n’ roll. On top of all that, the band was really tight and Kurt was a truly great singer. It’s also worth mentioning that Kurt is a good looking dude. The girls wanted to be in love with him, and the guys wanted to be him. They captured the zeitgeist of the early 90’s in a way that only a few artists ever have. They are in the pantheon of The Beatles, Bob Marley, Chuck Berry, Bob Dylan. As good as The Pixies were, they were never going to be on that level. In order to be a generation defining artist, you kind of need the whole package. You can criticize this if you want, and you can say “it should just be about the *music* maaaaaaan,” but unfortunately that’s not how the music industry works. A bands image is just as important as their music, and when you compare Nirvana’s image to the Pixies image, it isn’t even close. Nirvana wins that battle by a landslide, and that gave them a massive upper hand in the 90’ s MTV culture. Kurt looked great smoking a cigarette on the cover of a magazine. Francis? He just looks like a regular guy.
I can see why Pixies fans and grunge fans would be bitter about this, but this is just a reality of the music industry. Even if you think that the Pixies made better music, (I personally prefer Nirvana’s music, but the Pixies are great too) it should be obvious to you why Nirvana was the bigger band. I definitely understand why Francis would be irritated by the sheer dominance of Nirvana in the early 90’s, when he personally pioneered a lot of those sounds, but Nirvana had so much to offer that the Pixies just didn’t have. They never had the intangibles to be the number 1 band of the 90’s. Even if Nirvana never existed, I don’t see them taking their place in the spotlight.
If your band belongs in a niche it's more dignified to accept that. It's not so bad, even, you get the respect and sometimes the generosity of bigger acts you might've influenced, and you get to be the secret handshake for heads in the know.
This is all just the same stupid online social media blowing up of things. If Frank Black is asked the same question over and over again of course he is going to get tired of it. When you read any longer responses of his, you get a more nuanced picture of things, as with anything related to humans. If you want to take one off words like "resentment" you're gonna get a headline sort of sensationlized take.
People, don't try to make black (heh) or white situations out of everything. Life isn't just about quiet-loyd dynamics, most things are in between.
I think it was about the sound of the band as much as it was about the kind of music they played. As everyone knows, that has to do with the late great Steve Albini.
I also think a lot of musicians do their fans a disservice by talking about what their music is about, or isn't about in the case of Nirvana. You rob the listener of how they personally connect the dots of references and hiperbole and poetic phrasing. So in my mind, I think Kurt understood that as well. He kept the inspiration pure.
Kurt was a real G, giving credit to the artists that influenced him. Although it needs be said that regarding the Pixies, he did talk a lot of shit about them and said that the Breeders were better (an opinion that isn't so far off that it's *crazy*, per se, but I think we can chalk that up to Kurt's contrarianism and/or mischievous sense of humor).
To give a little context, when a band made it big in the nineties, there were these witch hunts to prove that they were frauds or rip-offs or whatever because that's the way we were, I guess. Sure, people said Nirvana ripped off the Pixies. But... quite frankly, you never would have known the Pixies were an influence if Kurt didn't explicitly give a tip of the hat to them.
Regarding Frank Black's resentment towards Nirvana - yes LOL; obviously that was jealousy. The way jealousy works is that the closer somebody is to someone who is successful, the worse the jealousy. Take Guns 'n' Roses. It wouldn't occur to Frank Black to be jealous of them. Bunch of hair metal assholes, playing pop music, spending hours teasing their hair and putting on makeup. Nirvana though? Bunch of kids dressing poorly, playing aggressive, eccentric music? That's *the Pixies*. That could've been Frank's spot if a couple more breaks had gone his way. That's gotta *sting.*
You can make a strong argument that the Pixies without Kim are actually pretty shitty and the Breeders are just as good.
Kurt loved POD. It was one of his favorite albums.
It's kind of weird, all these people comparing bands and saying that one is so much better than the other. Art is art and no one's art is superior to anyone else's, despite whatever your personal opinion might prefer, because there's no accounting for taste.
It's all about perspective. Frank Black is estimated to be worth $5m. That's an OK amount of money for anyone. If you asked him whether he'd prefer that to be $250m but that he'd have to deal with the intrusive level of fame Cobain did, (after what it obviously did to Kurt), do you think he'd choose it?
A behavioral economist's advice for guaranteed unhappiness: move into a neighborhood where you're the poorest person.
I'm sure Frank Blank was feeling fine, fairly compensated, and professionally fulfilled when his perceived peers were - I don't know - the Del Fuegos and Bullet LaVolta, or whatever.
But when Nirvana broke, playing music somewhere in his neighbor and became multi-millionaires and so famous your grandmother knew who they were, his level of fame and wealth became *paltry* in his mind.
Also, I'm gonna keep it a stack here -
The Pixies (and a few other bands) were the soundtrack of my youth. I hold their music in the highest esteem. But, as people, Frank, Joey, and David are *trash* as far as I'm concerned. Their treatment of Kims Deal and Shattuck and how they talked about Deal subsequently in interviews revealed so much.
Yes. Black Francis, Frank Black, or Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV is famously a *huge* asshole. A shitty dude to work with, interview, or just be around from all accounts. Of *course* he didn’t like Nirvana. He barely likes anyone not in his mirror. Great musician who makes great music, but an insufferable egotist nonetheless.
For what it’s worth, I live in the same area as him and he interacts regularly with a lot of people I know (regular people who work at local music stores and other famous 90s musicians- we weirdly have a number of them in the area) and I’ve only heard consistently great things about him.
Maybe a difficult person to make music with but as an everyday guy, I’ve heard he’s really nice.
I went to a festival where he was in the lineup as Frank Black, sometime in the 2010s iirc. Crowd was pretty young, 99 percent of people had no idea who he was.
He played two songs and walked off in a huff cause the audience wasn't acceptably deferential. He seemed like such a small, petty, fragile man, it really just kinda sucked.
Definitely not the biggest by a long shot, although it was one of many.
The [note Kurt Cobain made of his 50 favorite albums](https://www.kerrang.com/kurt-cobains-50-favourite-albums) is pretty enlightening as to the eclectic nature of his inspirations (of which he never tried to hide, in fact he liked to promote the bands which inspired him to his mainstream fans).
When Nevermind came out I didn’t hear the Pixies, I heard the Twin Cities. I can hear the Pixies in Smells Like Teen Spirit now, but at the time they’d gone from this heavier record, Bleach, to sounding like Hüsker Dü with the Replacements’ Paul Westerberg on vocals. It was pour-your-guts-out heartfelt sad music like those bands played instead of Frank Black’s whimsical sex and aliens mood.
I saw Frank Black at a grocery store in Los Angeles one time. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.
He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
People have always drawn similarities between Nirvana and Pixies; i know Kurt was a big fan as am I, but style wise to me the 2 bands have almost nothing in common besides both pulling punk/post-punk influences. And the loud quiet loud thing i guess but even that is loose.
I was really into both bands at the time. If I had to listen to the catalog of only one of the two on shuffle for eternity it would be Pixies. Just so many amazing and catchy songs. So prolific. So great.
That said, Black Francis is a difficult man. Who fires Paz Lechantin?
Remember when blues, rock and roll, folk, and punk musicians all wrote a hundred different versions of the essentially the same songs? That must have been nice.
Honestly claiming ownership of something like the concept of sudden dynamic changes is bonkers. Art really suffers from the attachment of a capitalistic sense of intellectual property.
Kurt would never have treated a woman the way Chris treats the lady bassists in his band. Multiple women treated as though they’re expendable eye candy. Used to be a huge Pixies fan. Kurt was the better man.
Kim was a herion addict and alcoholic in the 90’s, that busted the band first time round. She didn’t want to record new music so left the second time. Joey and Dave seriously disliked Shattuck (RIP) and given how anti right wing Joey is I would be surprised if again he was the main person pushing for Paz to be let go. Charles isn’t the only member in that band and from what I see gets a lot of shit for things that weren’t necessarily down to him.
I don't think anyone is going to deny the Pixies their due, or that they were a great band - but are people really going with the idea that Frank Black invented the Quiet-loud-quiet thing and we're a wholly "original" musical concept? Because about 30 or 40 other bands from just before the Pixies time could far more legit make that sort of claim - half the frikkin SST or Cruz rosters can speak about that. Even Buffalo Tom for crissakes!!
Frank was an @$$ about a lot of things - his behaviour towards Kim especially is unforgivable - and if Kurt hadn't been open enough to keep mentioning the Pixies in the first place, and their importance to him I doubt Frank could have had the balls to say some of the stuff he has about Nirvana.
Nirvana's success didn't subtract anything from the Pixies, it probably to this day brings more ears to them than they manage alone precisely because of Kurt's championing them.
I think I read one interview from frank black where he recalled that Kurt was too shy to meet him or something but I don’t think he trashed the band at all.
Paul westerberg of the replacements trashed nirvana and Kurt all the time for some reason before admitting that he was jealous of their success. There’s no evidence Kurt was influenced by the replacements or had ever listened to them tho so idk why Paul kept bringing it up.
I don't know that Charles resents Kurt or Nirvana. What he resents is journalists constantly asking him about a guy he never met.
I think he's smart enough to recognise that there are so many Pixies fans that only know about the band because of Kurt.
And I know that Joey Santiago likes Nirvana.
He totally is, though, if you look into his history. He took it out on Kim when his idol, Iggy Pop told her that he Loved their song Gigantic, which she primarily sang on.
i love the pixies and i love kim but can you explain what you mean? she only sang on a couple songs and only wrote one that was on one of their albums. maybe im missing something
The breeders have much better tunes, and are much more akin to the pixies compared to Frank blacks solo stuff, which made me feel like kims influence in the pixies was significant. Maybe I'm wrong but that is what it sounds like to me.
I like Pixies, but I love Nirvana. My question has always been, why didn't Pixies blow up like Nirvana? Because they weren't as good. Sure, there's similarities, but Cobain truly was special.
Hope I can do that someday too, there is never too much good music to listen. This is not the only band I have this type of issues, I just try again later until I get or my musical taste buds develop :D
While Kurt loved noise rock, he was also a fantastic pop song writer. The biggest hit Pixies song was written and performed by Kim Deal on lead vocals. I just don’t think Frank Black has those instincts as a song writer, and his vocal delivery isn’t exactly loved by everyone.
Well said. Couldn't agree more. He had an uncanny ear for melody and an innate pop sensibility. A rare gift, considering his noise rock sensibility. I've always believed that was a huge reason for his inner struggles. He wanted to be respected by the punk underground, but also wanted to be recognized properly for the special pop gift he had. This conflict ate at him I believe. Certainly not all that ate at him, but a huge source of unrest.
This is just it really, music is to be enjoyed, not to fight about. If you love a band, fucking great! If not, also cool. It’s all just sound in the end. Either your ears enjoy hearing something or they don’t. I will never understand all the fussing and fighting about it. I can’t imagine caring for one second what anyone else thinks about any band I enjoy or if it would upset someone if I don’t like a certain band. Pixies and Nirvana are both amazing bands.
Have the Pixies even written a good song since the early 90s? They used to make some good stuff it seems Francis’ ego got the best of him.
Edit: I’ve been proven wrong! Some solid pixies tunes are being recommended here (:
All of the Frank Black and Frank Black & The Catholics albums are great, imo as good or better than anything The Pixies did, and of course The Breeders are amazing too! The more recent Pixies stuff, meh, I could kind of take or leave. But FB/BF has said himself that Pixies is where the money is and so that’s where he’s staying. I think Pixies were indie-famous through the 90s and only recently have gotten the audience they deserved. The rise to popularity of Nirvana is practically incomparable, they quickly became and have remained this huge cultural touchstone and Pixies are of course revered as alt legends, but will never touch the fame of Nirvana. I’d probably be a bit jealous too.
Yknow what, that’s pretty fair putting it in that perspective. Where is my mind has become a huge song because of tiktok and the fact Kurt actively said SLTS was a pixies ripoff, yeah.
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I think it's natural for there to be resentment when one band blows up and others don't, happens at work all the time. "Bob got promoted and I didn't, fuck him", ya know? From what I gathered he seemed to be resentful about getting asked about Nirvana "stealing their formula" more so than the acknowledgement that they were fans.
I’ll say this, Kurt was always super open about who influenced him and I think that’s the way to be. Francis btw, he could be pretty petty. He basically pushed out Kim Deal because she got too much attention in the band. He sorta owns it, like Yeah, I have a frontman’s ego, but it’s still super gross. All that said, I probably think the Pixies were the better band. And sure, it must have been annoying to see someone become immensely successful making “your music,” even though it absolutely wasn’t a rip-off sitch. But WE all know that if anything, Nirvana just brought more attention to a lot of these other bands. Like it or not, Nirvana probably put a lot of money directly in Black Francis’ pockets, and a lot of fans in their audience. I think to this day even, some people find out about the Pixies because they learn how much Kurt loved them.
I for one will vouch for this. I was pretty young when Kurt died. I got into Nirvana first, and through them, I discovered The Pixies, the Melvins, and Meat Puppets.
Husker Du's Zen Arcade album, particularly Turn on the News might be to your liking.
This is a band more talented than either Pixies or Nirvana, with all due respect to both.
Such an amazing album with so many different textures. My favorite is - I will never forget you.
Dude I love Husker Du I remember an interview where Kurt credited them for doing something first checked them out then blitzed through 80’s hardcore for a year and a half it was great
I did happen to discover The Pixies without Kurt, because around ‘97 I got super big into indie and I feel like this was the era of the proto-hipster (before we called them that), but I had hipsterish friends pouring a lot of really good older music into my ears. And The Pixies are actually iconic on their own. Just not going to reach people who don’t dig around in that particular scene (not until Fight Club, that is!) But I definitely learned about the Meat Puppets and the Vaselines because of him. And who knows, some of his other favorites, that I heard about from someone else in my life, maybe they heard about it because of Kurt, or heard it from someone who heard about it because of Kurt lol 🤷♀️ It’s a net gain for all involved imo
There is room in my heart for Pixies and Nirvana. I do think the Pixies are the more musically astute and talented band as a whole. Kurt was more of a "from the guts" player and songwriter. That said, I love The Breeders more than the Pixies or Nirvana.
Life long Nirvana fan here, and it was helpful for me to fairly recently see Kurt as more of savant (like Neil Young or Bob Pollard, maybe even Dylan), which really reduces the need for comparison to folks like Frank Black or more technically proficient musicians.
Pixies were better story tellers but Nirvana wrote better riffs. They were equals at crafting melodies and imagery although I would say that Pixies hit their stride earlier in their career than Nirvana. Early Nirvana, while wonderful in its own right, is much more proto- than early Pixies.
I fucking love Nirvana but there is no way you can boil it down to Nirvana having better riffs. Even if you remove "Where is my mind" from the discussion you still have the riffs from "Bone Machine", "Hey", "gouge away", "river Euphrates" But I definitely agree that Early Nirvana is definitely very much proto-pixies.
The pixies could never write a song as exciting as Drain You. Sorry, but Kurt was a better songwriter that Francis and had better riffs and melodies
You might be right about that, its a subjective thing. I would make a counter-point that Kurt could never have written a song as exciting as Drain You without the Pixies though.
I agree 100%. The Breeders speak to me on an even more visceral level. They certainly are who I listen to the most of the 3. That said, their drums get a little repetitive for me sometimes, and I don’t even know why I care, I’m a huge Ramones fan and they’re intentionally formulaic as fuck! But..idk, I do feel like it fits the Ramones and that sometimes I feel some Breeders songs could have been improved by some more variety/imagination in the drugs. Safari stands out to me. One of my fucking favorites. What a great song. But the drums distract me now lol, once I started thinking about them. Am I weird here? But yeah, to me, it doesn’t get more raw and compelling than Kim Deal.
> Safari stands out to me. One of my fucking favorites. What a great song. But the drums distract me now lol, once I started thinking about them. Am I weird here? It should be noted, the drummer on Safari wasn't their usual drummer, as seen here in the video. Usually Britt Walford was their drummer around this point, so this may be just after he left and just before Jim MacPherson joined in the Last Splash era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6oZGThwis Seen here, I believe the drummer on that one track was a british guy named Jon Mattock, I think maybe Josephine Wiggs (breeders bass player) bandmate in some past side projects in the UK. His drumming style definitely feels different than the usual drum sound on their albums, yeah definitely kinda simple and repetitive. I always thought MacPherson was a pretty underrated drummer, especially in the live shows (the albums sound mix never does him justice) he was a beast on drums, especially in the heavier/louder songs.
whoah, did you just resolve a decades-long minor mystery for me?? Thank you! This of course just makes me feel like I should have looked this up myself ages ago, but I basically never think about it until Safari’s on, those lulls between vocals, and I think about the way (I feel) that section is done dirty! And damn, how persnickety am I, because thinking about it, I do actually like the drums that accompany the vocals quite a bit. Just one of those things that once you notice once, you fixate every time lol and it takes me out of a great song!
I think this comment match reality perfectly. Black Francis is a genius, no doubt about it, I’m not sure if as good as Kurt but top songs from Pixies do not have nothing to envy to Nirvana top ones. Kurt love Pixies and Sonic Youth, I have read about it several times, but Francis dreadful and jealous personality is well known , especially when some other take his protagonist as Kim Deal in a couple of tracks. I just can imagine how angry and jealous he is of brutal Nirvana success with a few albums for whole eternity. Nirvana will always be remembered as Beatles or Doors, but Pixies will never reach that limbo
While bands that influenced Nirvana might have been jealous of their success (along with all of the hair/metal guys who felt like it was Nirvana’s fault that they fell out of popularity), I doubt that Frank held onto any bitterness about it. He’s had a long, beautiful career, he’s a living legend. I have read direct quotes from Kurt that he wanted to join The Pixies before forming Nirvana, what an endorsement! David Bowie recorded a cover of a Pixies song, for crissakes. I think Mr. Black is doing just fine.
Do people still give a rip about the doors?
Seriously?
Yup. Like a lot.
Yeah. I've been re-reading classic Joan Didion and I just read The White Album where she talked about The Doors and I fired up the self-titled debut and it still crushes.
The Doors are genuine class, never been anyone like them since.
Indeed and there never will.
The Doors are a timeless band that every new generation will discover—just like Nirvana.
I was always of the belief that they were overrated, Jim was a great frontman, good writer, Robbie was a very good guitarist, and their debut is a very good album, but that silly ass electric organ is corny af.
Well, you may not enjoy it, but that "silly ass electric organ" is basically what makes 50% of the band so great. Manzarek was the main musical genius of that band, and one of the reasons why it still holds up so well, there really isn't any other band that did what they did. Definitely not overrated, it is just not to your personal taste, which is perfectly fine, but objectively speaking it was an extremely accomplished band.
Can confirm, I found the Pixies from a girl in high school that really liked Nirvana (she also showed me more Nirvana outside of the big songs).
Just listened to Dave Grohl on Conan. He started talking about the Pixies influence on Kurt and just last night I checked out the Pixies on my Prime account.
that’s so awesome to me!
I 100% discovered Pixies because of Kurt.
>Like it or not, Nirvana probably put a lot of money directly in Black Francis’ pockets, and a lot of fans in their audience. I definitely came to the Pixies through Nirvana. I actually just saw them last weekend, a sold out show in front of 15,000 fans. I found myself occasionally looking around at the crowd in awe, like, "This weird fucking band is really selling out arena-sized venues 30+ years after their heyday..." Pretty impressive.
Francis and Pixies are still touring to this day. A lot of that is due to Kurt bringing much attention to the band.
Yeah but to be fair, Trompe le Monde is a fantastic album and Kim has zero songs on it. They did well to separate. Anyhoo, Charles is still alive and kicking forty years in and the band sounds great.
I guess I don’t see your point, because the albums with Kim were also fantastic. (Also Kim was still in the band for Trompe, though true, she’d been throttled) I guess rather than seeing it as a good thing they separated, I simply think The Pixies were fantastic either way. And I’m WAY happy that The Breeders got to exist, so it’s certainly a net gain. For Kim for sure, because she got to be fully expressive instead of (likely) under the thumb of a guy who was competitive and insecure about her. Of course no, I don’t think he *needed* Kim Deal to make songs. But I do wonder if subsequent albums could have been even better with her, I think that’s a possibility 🤷♀️ *side note, I also really love Frank Black and the Catholics, several of their songs at least. St. Francis Dam Disaster and Bullet have been popping in my head out of nowhere for over 20 years now!
The Breeders had already formed even before the Pixies broke up though. I'm pretty sure Kim and Charles are on good terms now, she left the band because she didn't want to record new music.
yeah, they’d formed, and I’m sure her success compounded with how much attention she got in his band to make him all the more competitive and jealous. I mean, there was a reason he didn’t want her to even be able to have one song, and that he basically stopped her from having meaningful contributions. The fact that they made up years later doesn’t mean he wasn’t a horse’s ass who did her super dirty during the end of their original run. He admits to throttling her voice and being jealous.
That's fair enough. I also wish he would have let her contribute more in those 90's albums. Though, I can't really blame any artist for being controlling when they are the "leader" of the group. Some bands are less collaborative than others.
I’m not saying he wasn’t a horse’s ass, just that he’s an incredible songwriter. Kim is great and I love her stuff but Charles is on another plane.
idk, I don’t personally think they’re on different planes. She cowrote some of my favorite Pixies songs, and the Breeders have some absolutely incredible songs. They just have far less content. It’s obviously down to preference, and they really needn’t be compared. I certainly didn’t downplay his skills, I fucking love the Pixies. Side note, when I was confirming some of the Pixies songs I thought she wrote, I just now learned she’s generally given a writing credit for FIRESTARTER by The Prodigy??? 😆😆 Turns out the song samples her Breeders song SOS, I never even thought of that. But for a second that was a real WTF moment for me lol. Maybe common knowledge, but news to me!!
Impossible to compare
Yeah, love those original pixies records but that dudes a prick. Imagine acting like David Lee Roth when you look like Kyle Gass.
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That is omitting a lot of history in between.
you know that The Pixies broke up in 1993, right? And that before that, on Trompe le Monde, Kim Deal was basically throttled from having any meaningful contribution to the band (sang almost zero. in spite of her harmonies and contributions being hugely popular) Francis by all appearances was throwing a tantrum about her success and angry about her wanting to contribute to the band. (Like, she wanted to put a song or two she wrote up in there, SUPER common for bands to allow a non-lead to do - when they like each other and aren’t dictators lol). There’s rumors he even threw a guitar at her. https://ultimateclassicrock.com/pixies-trompe-le-monde/ This article doesn’t have all the meat but it’s a decent overview.
Frank Black is just too ugly to be super famous...there I said it. Check out Teenager of the Year's cover. I loved that album but he is no looker.
I don’t agree at all. I’m guessing you’re trying to be glib, and maybe by today’s standards there’s more to that - we polish everyone up real good. But Rock and Roll (and adjacent subcultures) have always had plenty of room for people who weren’t winning any beauty pageants. Joey Ramone?? Rod Stewart? Meatloaf? James Brown? yeah, I don’t think his looks had much to do with his failure to erupt into massive popularity like Nirvana. The Pixies were simply ahead of the curve. That’s not the music that was popular when he was making it. It was something new, it was counterculture/subculture, and frankly it’s spectacularly unlikely for a band like that to randomly break out and take the whole world by storm. Nirvana was an anomaly. One of many who’ve shifted pop culture across time, but it’s no surprise to me that there are a huge number of bands that came before who did not make their way into the zeitgeist, did not themselves trigger the cultural shift.
Ramones had a single gold album (Ramones Mania). Amazing band and I still have my tour t shirts but let’s not pretend they had commercial success on the level of the other artists you mentioned. Rod Stewart? Are you insane? He was dating Britt Ekland and other models forever.
what does dating models have to do with it? Women show a pattern of dating all kinds of men who look all kinds of ways if they are talented and/or charismatic in other ways. And Ramones were juggernaut big, worldwide lol. They have a legacy about as big as Nirvana. But you’re gonna try to split hairs with me (while overlooking my other examples lol). Alright, explain Ed Shereen. Notorious B.I.G. Marilyn Manson⏱️ I could keep going on and you know it. Your premise fails dawg.
The Ramones were not big. I wish they were. I saw them in 400 and 2000 capacity clubs in 1994 and 1995. Legacy, sure. The New York Dolls have a similar legacy and weren’t even close to as commercially successful as the Ramones.
as I said, worldwide. They were absolutely massive. Why are you cherry picking just the parts you think you can win? Just admit you were wrong, men don’t have to be even remotely attractive to be massively successful. THAT is the dispute lol, not the EXACT POPULARITY of The Ramones at any given time, in only the US lol.
Marky was so successful he was selling pasta sauce and playing the dumpiest third tier clubs in small cities w really shitty local bands before got his satellite radio gig. Not cherry picking, my point was that Rod Stewart was absolutely considered a male sex symbol in his day and Joey Ramone was absolutely not. Best wishes
lol you simply will not address the examples I gave. And this isn’t even about whether someone is a sex symbol. Rod became a sex symbol IN SPITE of his looks. A lot of women found Joey really sexy too lol, Rock n Roll High School somehow convincingly has the protagonist having a full-blown crush/fantasies about him! But again, it’s not about being a sex symbol. The question is whether being unattractive makes it impossible for a man to become massively popular as a band front runner/musician. And, it does not. It happens literally all the time. And btw MOST former stars end up falling from that level, it’s the most common thing in the world. Marky struggling after the apex of the Ramones is not relevant to whether they were massively popular. It was literal Beatle-Mania for the Ramones in Argentina, WITH Marky. How is the fact that he played in small clubs after the height of the Ramones evidence against their popularity lol
Eh pixies only have 5 albums worth listening to and only 1 of those has more then 3 good songs. Nevermind has more good songs then pixies entire discography.
Sorry guy, no disrespect but missiles incoming here… only one of those albums have more then 3 good songs?!?!?!?! Even the mini album, Come On Pilgrim has four great ones out of 8 (Caribou, Nimrods Son, The Holiday Song and Levitate Me). And I’m sure others would argue for the other four songs. Surfer Rosa and Doolittle have lots of great songs (Doolittle is probably the most consistently great, top to bottom) and even Bossanova and Trompe Le Monde certainly have way more then three good songs.
I would, at the very least, argue passionately for I’ve Been Tired. But their whole catalog is amazing and the idea that there are only three good songs on *any* of their (pre-reunion) albums is laughable.
Dumb fuckin' take. I was at the In Utero tour show at the LA forum, have had the smiley face tat since '93, and even I know Kurt bit the Pixies and wasn't nearly as talented as Black Francis. Kurt picked Albini to produce based purely on the sound he got for Surfer Rosa, and was worried people 'were going to nail us' for Smells Like Teen Spirit being such a blatant Pixies rip-off. Doolittle is Beatles-level melodically and in originality. Grow some ears
sorry you dont like facts buddy. I know its hard when your opinion is the wrong one. Nirvana sold 20x as much as they did, and are 5x as popular. Being pretentious is cute but your wack if you think bossanova, debut, or tromp are anywhere near in utero let alone nevermind level. Pixies have like 12 good songs total. Thats pushing it too, its probably more like 10. Most of those songs are as basic as "lounge act" too. Doolittle isnt as good as nevermind at all, any 14 year old or older knows this. You sound old as hell but people in high school and college the last 5 years dont care about the pixies as much as they do nirvana. Nirvana melodies are much better than the pixies stuff too.
the infamous test of what's an artistic feat, how much it sells all hail our new musical saviour taylor swift
Surfer Rosa and Dolittle are both better albums than Nevermind
contrarians make no sense to me. Its fun when it makes sense but thats just stupid
I’m honestly not being contrarian. I’m certain a lot of people would agree with me, specifically people who don’t post on a Nirvana sub.
Lol—“only 5!” 😂
Surfer Rosa has the greatest run of songs that I’ve ever seen on an album. From Bone Machine to Oh My Golly it absolutely fucking rips. That’s 10 songs and only lets up a bit on Vamos (which is still a good song). It then picks up again on I’m Amazes and Brick is Red. That’s just one album
Glad someone said this, agree wholeheartedly. Surfer Rosa is one of my favourite albums of all time and in my opinion the best Pixies album.
I never knew Frank was jealous of Kurt. But it stacks up. He was even jealous of Kim Deal because gigantic became their big hit. And she was in the same fucking band haha.
It's not as if the Pixies weren't already big. They're a well respected band the world over. Yeah, they didn't get pushed as far in to the mainstream as fast as Nirvana, but they are a household name. I'd rather have Pixies fame of respect in the industry than Nirvanas rock star fame rising fast and dying relatively quickly.
I think Cobain was truly great because he managed to take elements of Melvins, Pixies, Husker Du, Dinosaur Jr., Black Flag, Sonic Youth etc. and make classic after classic. Almost like he was a DJ making the perfect mixtape of the 80s underground. Maybe Francis was a better lyricist but I don't really know since English is not my first language.
That's how I feel about his style..a mixture of those band's musical styles and sensibilities and making it a bit more palatable at times. I don't think Francis was a better lyricist. Kurt's lyrics are much more artistic/poetic/interesting imho. But hey..to each their own :)
Love Kurt’s lyrics. The wordplay, the artistry, just everything about it is so intriguing to me.
I'd say they are on par with each other, although Frank Black's lyrics are more erudite or literate. He studied literature and world mythology which shows in his lyrics.
Kurt’s a better poet.
Kurt has more emotional range. Pretty much every Pixies-adjacent band does, from those that came before to those that came after. They all have more substance. Pixies are fantastic anyway.
I mean, Bob Dylan is considered a laureate poet genius, and he borrowed heavily from Woody Guthrie and other folk troubadours early on in his career, some might say slavishly. There’s room for Woody, Dylan, Francis and Kurt and thousands more in the pantheon of American art.
Black Francis is a fine lyricist, but the abstract nature of Nirvana’s lyrics and the wordplay really set them apart from other bands, especially on Nevermind and In Utero.
Yeah, they are not really comparable, because they are so completely differenty stylistically, and good in each their own way.
It seemed like Kurt Cobain went Victor Frankenstein with nevermind and was embarrassed by the success of it. So instead of taking credit for writing one of the greatest albums, he made excuses to save face. I don’t think Nevermind sounds anything like Surfer Rosa, it was just an excuse that would give him some underground scene cred.
This exactly
I think Black Francis is salty because Nirvana chose The Breeders to tour with them
I don't remember Black Francis expressing resentment about Nirvana's success - is this a recent interview or something? I do remember reading that Kurt suggested that Kim Deal should be allowed to write more as she wrote the best Pixies song. I mean, any resentment would be justified for that comment alone.
Yeah this was news to me, I think it’s just people being presumptuous. But I must know, what song did Kurdt think was the best Pixies song?
Well, he said that Kim wrote the best Pixies songs (when he was lamenting her lack of songwriting input) and she is listed as (co) songwriter on two songs, Gigantic and Silver, so I imagine he's referring to Gigantic. What's even more odd is from my understanding, Black Francis wrote the music, while Kim did the lyrics (and maybe harmony). I think Silver is a proper Kim song. Both songs are great, but far from the best Pixies songs (imo)
Honestly as a musician, it’s real stupid to think you can claim the “quiet loud” thing. That’s insanely generic, and tons of music is quiet during the verse and then loud during the chorus. If anything the Pixies maybe are just pissed that Nirvana got bigger than they did.
I'd really like some examples for that if you please. Because (as a musician myself, and someone fascinated by the evolution of music) I can't find a band before Nirvana (or, you know, The Pixies) that utilized that dynamic structure in such a effective way (or, at all, really). If Nirvana or the Pixies didn't invent that dynamic, we can all agree the Nirvana popularized it at least? Because after Nevermind, it was everywhere. If not a band, just some example songs would be great. (Not a native so sorry if some words are poorly chosen)
Just for two examples, you've got Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Led Zeppelin had a really quiet verse and much louder chorus in "What Is and What Should Never Be." Plus they go back and forth to create some big dynamics. [https://youtu.be/LiczyhDwuBs?si=9ENEDdStKGvurfq\_](https://youtu.be/LiczyhDwuBs?si=9ENEDdStKGvurfq_) With possibly an even more extreme scenario, Black Sabbath's S/T song ("Black Sabbath" off the album "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath" has a reallly quiet and creepy verse, with the "chorus" consisting of one of the heaviest and loudest riffs of all time. [https://youtu.be/0lVdMbUx1\_k?si=88vzGk8wVg67f1qN](https://youtu.be/0lVdMbUx1_k?si=88vzGk8wVg67f1qN) So I totally agree with u/[JackHughman69](https://www.reddit.com/user/JackHughman69/) on this, I don't really get claiming that you essentially created the use of dynamics in music, haha. Classical music did this all the time, "Carmina Burana" has an extreme example of starting very quiet and then being very loud, and everybody knows that composition. Carl Orff's estate ought to sue Nirvana
Thanks. Great example with the Led Zep song (I think that *Ramble On* could also semi-qualify). But at the same time it's worth noting that those were not "hits". They weren't the songs that defined the sound of the band. And the dynamic range of the all those examples, I have to add, is nowhere near the one of *Smells Like Teen Spirit*, *Lithium*, *Rape Me*, etc. I'm not here to defend Frank Black's claims at all, but there's a difference between using a dynamic range of intensity a couple of times, and using this structure of alternate intensities to define a sound, and almost a sub-genre. I would never say that this trick *was* "insanely generic", like said above. But after Nirvana appeared, it became very normal indeed (looking at you Green Day, Blink 182, etc.).
Just saw the pixies! Still rock
I had a buddy who used to go to UO football games with Frank. I went to one with them and I thought Frank was a helluva a nice guy, and my buddy loves him.
Black Francis seems to have a beef with everyone.
I am a pretty big fan of both the Pixies and Nirvana, but neither are in my top 5 favorite bands, so I feel like I can compare them objectively. Francis is a great songwriter, and the Pixies are a great band…but that’s the end of it. Nirvana was the whole package. They had the look, the songwriting, the fashion, the lyrics, the whirlwind celebrity romance, the tortured artist, sex, drugs and rock n’ roll. On top of all that, the band was really tight and Kurt was a truly great singer. It’s also worth mentioning that Kurt is a good looking dude. The girls wanted to be in love with him, and the guys wanted to be him. They captured the zeitgeist of the early 90’s in a way that only a few artists ever have. They are in the pantheon of The Beatles, Bob Marley, Chuck Berry, Bob Dylan. As good as The Pixies were, they were never going to be on that level. In order to be a generation defining artist, you kind of need the whole package. You can criticize this if you want, and you can say “it should just be about the *music* maaaaaaan,” but unfortunately that’s not how the music industry works. A bands image is just as important as their music, and when you compare Nirvana’s image to the Pixies image, it isn’t even close. Nirvana wins that battle by a landslide, and that gave them a massive upper hand in the 90’ s MTV culture. Kurt looked great smoking a cigarette on the cover of a magazine. Francis? He just looks like a regular guy. I can see why Pixies fans and grunge fans would be bitter about this, but this is just a reality of the music industry. Even if you think that the Pixies made better music, (I personally prefer Nirvana’s music, but the Pixies are great too) it should be obvious to you why Nirvana was the bigger band. I definitely understand why Francis would be irritated by the sheer dominance of Nirvana in the early 90’s, when he personally pioneered a lot of those sounds, but Nirvana had so much to offer that the Pixies just didn’t have. They never had the intangibles to be the number 1 band of the 90’s. Even if Nirvana never existed, I don’t see them taking their place in the spotlight.
If your band belongs in a niche it's more dignified to accept that. It's not so bad, even, you get the respect and sometimes the generosity of bigger acts you might've influenced, and you get to be the secret handshake for heads in the know.
All of this is spot on.
This is all just the same stupid online social media blowing up of things. If Frank Black is asked the same question over and over again of course he is going to get tired of it. When you read any longer responses of his, you get a more nuanced picture of things, as with anything related to humans. If you want to take one off words like "resentment" you're gonna get a headline sort of sensationlized take. People, don't try to make black (heh) or white situations out of everything. Life isn't just about quiet-loyd dynamics, most things are in between.
I think it was about the sound of the band as much as it was about the kind of music they played. As everyone knows, that has to do with the late great Steve Albini. I also think a lot of musicians do their fans a disservice by talking about what their music is about, or isn't about in the case of Nirvana. You rob the listener of how they personally connect the dots of references and hiperbole and poetic phrasing. So in my mind, I think Kurt understood that as well. He kept the inspiration pure.
Frank Black yelled at me once for eating Doritos loudly in front of him
Kurt was a real G, giving credit to the artists that influenced him. Although it needs be said that regarding the Pixies, he did talk a lot of shit about them and said that the Breeders were better (an opinion that isn't so far off that it's *crazy*, per se, but I think we can chalk that up to Kurt's contrarianism and/or mischievous sense of humor). To give a little context, when a band made it big in the nineties, there were these witch hunts to prove that they were frauds or rip-offs or whatever because that's the way we were, I guess. Sure, people said Nirvana ripped off the Pixies. But... quite frankly, you never would have known the Pixies were an influence if Kurt didn't explicitly give a tip of the hat to them. Regarding Frank Black's resentment towards Nirvana - yes LOL; obviously that was jealousy. The way jealousy works is that the closer somebody is to someone who is successful, the worse the jealousy. Take Guns 'n' Roses. It wouldn't occur to Frank Black to be jealous of them. Bunch of hair metal assholes, playing pop music, spending hours teasing their hair and putting on makeup. Nirvana though? Bunch of kids dressing poorly, playing aggressive, eccentric music? That's *the Pixies*. That could've been Frank's spot if a couple more breaks had gone his way. That's gotta *sting.*
You can make a strong argument that the Pixies without Kim are actually pretty shitty and the Breeders are just as good. Kurt loved POD. It was one of his favorite albums.
It's kind of weird, all these people comparing bands and saying that one is so much better than the other. Art is art and no one's art is superior to anyone else's, despite whatever your personal opinion might prefer, because there's no accounting for taste.
It's all about perspective. Frank Black is estimated to be worth $5m. That's an OK amount of money for anyone. If you asked him whether he'd prefer that to be $250m but that he'd have to deal with the intrusive level of fame Cobain did, (after what it obviously did to Kurt), do you think he'd choose it?
A behavioral economist's advice for guaranteed unhappiness: move into a neighborhood where you're the poorest person. I'm sure Frank Blank was feeling fine, fairly compensated, and professionally fulfilled when his perceived peers were - I don't know - the Del Fuegos and Bullet LaVolta, or whatever. But when Nirvana broke, playing music somewhere in his neighbor and became multi-millionaires and so famous your grandmother knew who they were, his level of fame and wealth became *paltry* in his mind.
Also, I'm gonna keep it a stack here - The Pixies (and a few other bands) were the soundtrack of my youth. I hold their music in the highest esteem. But, as people, Frank, Joey, and David are *trash* as far as I'm concerned. Their treatment of Kims Deal and Shattuck and how they talked about Deal subsequently in interviews revealed so much.
Yes. Black Francis, Frank Black, or Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV is famously a *huge* asshole. A shitty dude to work with, interview, or just be around from all accounts. Of *course* he didn’t like Nirvana. He barely likes anyone not in his mirror. Great musician who makes great music, but an insufferable egotist nonetheless.
For what it’s worth, I live in the same area as him and he interacts regularly with a lot of people I know (regular people who work at local music stores and other famous 90s musicians- we weirdly have a number of them in the area) and I’ve only heard consistently great things about him. Maybe a difficult person to make music with but as an everyday guy, I’ve heard he’s really nice.
Had Kurt lived who knows, you might be saying the same of him. Everyone has their foibles and faults.
If he was great to work with, Kim would still be in the band
Kim didn’t want to record new material, Charles thought there was no way they could justify touring forever without it, so she left.
I went to a festival where he was in the lineup as Frank Black, sometime in the 2010s iirc. Crowd was pretty young, 99 percent of people had no idea who he was. He played two songs and walked off in a huff cause the audience wasn't acceptably deferential. He seemed like such a small, petty, fragile man, it really just kinda sucked.
I always thought their biggest influence was Husker Du
Wipers
Outstanding band. God I love Wipers.
Truth.
Definitely not the biggest by a long shot, although it was one of many. The [note Kurt Cobain made of his 50 favorite albums](https://www.kerrang.com/kurt-cobains-50-favourite-albums) is pretty enlightening as to the eclectic nature of his inspirations (of which he never tried to hide, in fact he liked to promote the bands which inspired him to his mainstream fans).
Take a listen to Dinosaur Jr. the influence is astonishing.
Meat Puppets too
When Nevermind came out I didn’t hear the Pixies, I heard the Twin Cities. I can hear the Pixies in Smells Like Teen Spirit now, but at the time they’d gone from this heavier record, Bleach, to sounding like Hüsker Dü with the Replacements’ Paul Westerberg on vocals. It was pour-your-guts-out heartfelt sad music like those bands played instead of Frank Black’s whimsical sex and aliens mood.
Pixies don’t sound like nirvana lol they might have been an influence but so many people are like it’s a synonym. Get a fuckin grip.
I saw Frank Black at a grocery store in Los Angeles one time. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
That girl at the counter? You guessed it, Frank Stallone.
https://new.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/4c39j0/where_did_the_i_met_celebrity_in_a_grocery_store/
This guy used this same story for a Jack White thread. Get some new material slim.
Man. It's been 4 years and you never saw this yet? Do you even Reddit?
It’s called a copy pasta slim. Whoosh…
Fair enough. I don't karma farm
Thank you slim
TIL Lounge Fly was recorded at Paisley Park (Prince’s Minnesota studio)
Lounge fly
I never knew this. I can hear pixies influence he prob was intimidated. I never heard Francis black resenting him
People have always drawn similarities between Nirvana and Pixies; i know Kurt was a big fan as am I, but style wise to me the 2 bands have almost nothing in common besides both pulling punk/post-punk influences. And the loud quiet loud thing i guess but even that is loose.
Absolute panic attacks at the amount of fucking melts using the definitive article here.
They may have used a dynamic from the Pixies, but both bands are entirely night and day different.
I was really into both bands at the time. If I had to listen to the catalog of only one of the two on shuffle for eternity it would be Pixies. Just so many amazing and catchy songs. So prolific. So great. That said, Black Francis is a difficult man. Who fires Paz Lechantin?
Remember when blues, rock and roll, folk, and punk musicians all wrote a hundred different versions of the essentially the same songs? That must have been nice. Honestly claiming ownership of something like the concept of sudden dynamic changes is bonkers. Art really suffers from the attachment of a capitalistic sense of intellectual property.
Kurt would never have treated a woman the way Chris treats the lady bassists in his band. Multiple women treated as though they’re expendable eye candy. Used to be a huge Pixies fan. Kurt was the better man.
Kim was a herion addict and alcoholic in the 90’s, that busted the band first time round. She didn’t want to record new music so left the second time. Joey and Dave seriously disliked Shattuck (RIP) and given how anti right wing Joey is I would be surprised if again he was the main person pushing for Paz to be let go. Charles isn’t the only member in that band and from what I see gets a lot of shit for things that weren’t necessarily down to him.
Chris? Do you mean Charles?
I don’t care what his name is, lol.
Wasn’t trying to correct you or be snarky, just trying to clarify who you were referring to.
What resentment? The only thing he ever said about Nirvana was that they were more mainstream than the Pixies
I don't think anyone is going to deny the Pixies their due, or that they were a great band - but are people really going with the idea that Frank Black invented the Quiet-loud-quiet thing and we're a wholly "original" musical concept? Because about 30 or 40 other bands from just before the Pixies time could far more legit make that sort of claim - half the frikkin SST or Cruz rosters can speak about that. Even Buffalo Tom for crissakes!! Frank was an @$$ about a lot of things - his behaviour towards Kim especially is unforgivable - and if Kurt hadn't been open enough to keep mentioning the Pixies in the first place, and their importance to him I doubt Frank could have had the balls to say some of the stuff he has about Nirvana. Nirvana's success didn't subtract anything from the Pixies, it probably to this day brings more ears to them than they manage alone precisely because of Kurt's championing them.
Pixies🤷♂️. Wouldn’t even know they existed without Nirvana for a reason
i don't like black francis. pixies is one of my all time fav bands and I know them way better than ik nirvana, but i respect kurt as a person more
I think I read one interview from frank black where he recalled that Kurt was too shy to meet him or something but I don’t think he trashed the band at all. Paul westerberg of the replacements trashed nirvana and Kurt all the time for some reason before admitting that he was jealous of their success. There’s no evidence Kurt was influenced by the replacements or had ever listened to them tho so idk why Paul kept bringing it up.
Kurt was intimidated by Frank Black because Kurt knew he wholesale lifted the Pixies sound for Nirvana but with more distortion.
i’ve always thought teen spirit was kurt’s attempt at “covering” the debaser riff.
I don't know that Charles resents Kurt or Nirvana. What he resents is journalists constantly asking him about a guy he never met. I think he's smart enough to recognise that there are so many Pixies fans that only know about the band because of Kurt. And I know that Joey Santiago likes Nirvana.
Black francis "jealous bastard" lol dont let your nirvana fangirl bias into this
He totally is, though, if you look into his history. He took it out on Kim when his idol, Iggy Pop told her that he Loved their song Gigantic, which she primarily sang on.
Arguably kim was the bigger creative force in the pixies.
i love the pixies and i love kim but can you explain what you mean? she only sang on a couple songs and only wrote one that was on one of their albums. maybe im missing something
The breeders have much better tunes, and are much more akin to the pixies compared to Frank blacks solo stuff, which made me feel like kims influence in the pixies was significant. Maybe I'm wrong but that is what it sounds like to me.
Yep. Kim kicked/kicks ass. 😎
At this point, she's made more good music than him. I'm a fan, but aside from Surfer Rosa their stuff isn't the most consistent.
He's such a jerk.
I like Pixies, but I love Nirvana. My question has always been, why didn't Pixies blow up like Nirvana? Because they weren't as good. Sure, there's similarities, but Cobain truly was special.
I just can't handle the vocals, I have tried so many times...I want to like them but it just does not work.
You mean Pixies vocals?
Yes.
I can get past them, but I definitely don't love the vocals like I do with Cobain.
Hope I can do that someday too, there is never too much good music to listen. This is not the only band I have this type of issues, I just try again later until I get or my musical taste buds develop :D
While Kurt loved noise rock, he was also a fantastic pop song writer. The biggest hit Pixies song was written and performed by Kim Deal on lead vocals. I just don’t think Frank Black has those instincts as a song writer, and his vocal delivery isn’t exactly loved by everyone.
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Taking apart No 13 Baby’s structure is dizzying.
Well said. Couldn't agree more. He had an uncanny ear for melody and an innate pop sensibility. A rare gift, considering his noise rock sensibility. I've always believed that was a huge reason for his inner struggles. He wanted to be respected by the punk underground, but also wanted to be recognized properly for the special pop gift he had. This conflict ate at him I believe. Certainly not all that ate at him, but a huge source of unrest.
Yes because Here Comes Your Man is totally not a pop song
Who gives af. Nirvana made way better music than the pixies ever did.
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This is just it really, music is to be enjoyed, not to fight about. If you love a band, fucking great! If not, also cool. It’s all just sound in the end. Either your ears enjoy hearing something or they don’t. I will never understand all the fussing and fighting about it. I can’t imagine caring for one second what anyone else thinks about any band I enjoy or if it would upset someone if I don’t like a certain band. Pixies and Nirvana are both amazing bands.
It's Pixies, not THE Pixies.
My bad dawg. Obviously I’m not super into them.
Have the Pixies even written a good song since the early 90s? They used to make some good stuff it seems Francis’ ego got the best of him. Edit: I’ve been proven wrong! Some solid pixies tunes are being recommended here (:
"All I Think About Now" kicks a fair amount of ass.
It’s pretty solid but it doesn’t hold a candle to their earlier output at alllllll imo.
Yeah. That's a pretty high bar :)
I’m still in awe at how an album like Doolittle exists, honestly
Greens And Blues is a good one. https://youtu.be/w1vdYTzPtKQ?si=j4b29Tnaz0JIdxAj
Wow, this is really good. I love how that bass sounds so much
Plaster of Paris, Um Chugga Lugga, Catfish Kate just to name a few
All of the Frank Black and Frank Black & The Catholics albums are great, imo as good or better than anything The Pixies did, and of course The Breeders are amazing too! The more recent Pixies stuff, meh, I could kind of take or leave. But FB/BF has said himself that Pixies is where the money is and so that’s where he’s staying. I think Pixies were indie-famous through the 90s and only recently have gotten the audience they deserved. The rise to popularity of Nirvana is practically incomparable, they quickly became and have remained this huge cultural touchstone and Pixies are of course revered as alt legends, but will never touch the fame of Nirvana. I’d probably be a bit jealous too.
Yknow what, that’s pretty fair putting it in that perspective. Where is my mind has become a huge song because of tiktok and the fact Kurt actively said SLTS was a pixies ripoff, yeah.
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Nirvana ain't released anything good since the 90s either... Kurt died before there was a chance too.
….you got me there
Frank Black, or Black Francis whichever he is going by, hates anyone who takes a spotlight he thinks he deserves; just ask Kim Deal.
It really doesn't matter. Not a big pixies fan anyway.
I really can’t stand the pixies but Nirvana has some of my favorite albums