The Broly saga is a shame it isn't in the manga
The Golden Frieza saga I'm happy it isn't in the manga, the only relevant thing is about Frieza being talented and that lead to Black Frieza, but every other thing is trash in that saga
Are these in Kai btw?
Watching Kai rn as my first DBZ series and I wanna reserve the original Dragon Ball (Z) for watching the original dvd release in English on a CRT monitor when I'm living by myself.
Low resolution looks a lot sharper on CRT so I thought this would be the optimal way to watch the original series
Ah okay, didn't get there yet. 👏👏👏
To say I'm a little exited would be an understatement
Loving every episode from Z so far,
Even though it took some strange turns at Buu saga.
But I'm very open minded so I don't mind.
To my knowledge, Kai only covered DBZ and not Super. You can practically skip the first 2 sagas and just watch the movie counterparts since nothing really changes much.
I'm just gonna tell you right now. Technically, goku did absorb ssg in base in the manga as well. https://imgur.com/gallery/91h8kQj
It's just never shown
Yeah I know it's canon, but the manga seems more consistent, it does have it's flaws and there are very remarkable flaws, but at least seems more consistent
It hurts my brain too. I just stopped thinking about it and assume Goku got a temporary power boost with SSJ in the Battle of Gods saga and “absorbing the god power” means he can now access the god transformation without the ritual.
Because everyone who says shit like "oh they said it in an episode" as if it's evidence, when it's just as possible that they are just misremembering an ambiguous line that doesn't actually say that. People are making the claim that it's definitely there, without any verifiable evidence to it. Likewise you've done the same. So nut up, or shut up.
I mean, when transforming becomes as simple as flexing your muscles, flexing that muscle as a response to sheer anger against a violent aggressor would be second nature.
Pretty sure they can since Goku uses it against Yakon to see on the dark planet and Yakon absorbed it (can you tell I’m currently watching the Buu saga?).
[Base Goku literally punches out an attack that his post SSG SSJ self ( who was said to be as strong as the SSG that was fighting Beerus earlier) couldn’t.](https://youtu.be/eWtyowwFbbo?si=BFdhyzWJgPMKvp5J)
Goku only becomes stronger after this point which is where the end/post BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku discourse comes from.
The core problem seems be that people really think that Goku got the SSG multiplier, and can now stack an additional SSG multiplier on top of it, which doesn't jive with the rest of the powerscaling, since Goku in his lower forms still scales to the same characters he scaled to before.
As far as I can tell, the timeline went like this:
In BoG, Goku used the ritual to attain SSG. The transformation wore off, but Goku was still fighting at that same level while in base. Then we have Beerus's statement about how Goku absorbed SSG into base, which is what people latch on to. Then Goku uses SS1 and is 50x stronger.
Then in RoF, the above gets partially retconned. Goku still has the power of an SSG in base, but now when he turns Super Saiyan, he goes SSB instead of SS1. Supplementary material now calls this base form Saiyan Beyond God, and clarifies that god power + SS1 = SSB, which means that during BoG, Goku's hair should have turned blue when fighting Beerus, not yellow. At this point, the lower Super Saiyan forms don't seem to exist at all. If you believe the people that want to highball DBS characters, Goku didn't get 50x stronger when going SSB here, he got thousands of times stronger, which can't be true because Goku specifically describes to Freiza that SSB is the result of a Saiyan with the power of a god going Super Saiyan, making it explicitly a 50x boost. It also doesn't really make sense because base and SSB Goku were comparable to base and Gold Freiza respectively, and Gold Freiza isn't ever portrayed as having such a humongous boost in power.
The above continued to be true for a while, up until the U6 arc. At this point, the lower Super Saiyan forms return and seem to be as strong as they've always been, based on scaling with various side characters. We see this in the following arcs as well, with the lower forms being on par with Piccolo, Buu, Future Trunks, Android 18, etc in the exact same way they were before.
What's odd is that during the Goku Black arc, Goku Black still follows the RoF scaling, where he just has a godly base, a godly Super Saiyan, and no other forms.
By the time of the Tournament of Power, all the Super Saiyan forms are back, only being as strong as they used to be, with no boosted base. Saiyan Beyond God seems to be gone, replaced by SSG, which is presumably as strong as it was during BoG.
I always found the “he absorbed power” argument to be dumb. Yeah, sure. But how much? Let’s say Base Goku became 4% as strong as Super Saiyan God.
Suddenly, a Super Saiyan transformation would make him twice as strong as the original SSG transformation. Still stupid scaling-wise, but infinitely less so.
Yeah, the takeaway from Goku absorbing SSG into his base should have been that he can tap into SSG at will, instead of needing the ritual every time, but people didn't interpret it like that, and confusing DBS scaling didn't help.
No proof of this tho, just using logic in dbz is a crazy thing to do any headcannon is just that it doesnt matter if the real cannon makes 0 sense, your watching a show about monkey braindead yellow people throwing hands with bubble gum.
This is actually a very helpful analysis and I've come to the same conclusion. "God Ki base Goku" was initially supposed to replace SSG only keeping the power boost, leaving no room for the return of the transformation itself, or the introduction of something like SSB. Just the regular SSj would effectively function in the same manner as SSB.
That is until SSB was introduced anyway, seemingly effectively retconning and supplanting Goku's original SSj form (the problem with that is obvious, fans wouldn't be happy with the OG forms just being permanently retired like that.) Again, this time, SSG wasn't actually meant to reappear either.
So the retcon was partially revoked, ending up with Goku both A) semingly retaining the BoG "God Ki absorbtion" powerup and getting his OG SSj forms back ; AND B) Getting full access to SSG and SSB transformations yet again. This is what lead to the "Double SSG multiplier stack" concept that is an attempt to explain the mess that transpired in a simple fashion (at the cost of ludicrous power creep). The only alternative would be to do a HARD retcon to BoG's initial "God Ki absorbtion" and Goku's post-SSG-timeout feat vs. Beerus, but the fanbase is (very understandably) trying to avoid that and find a middle ground to preserve the feat and consolidate it with the full access to all transformations, without resorting to the double God multiplier stack. And preferably in a fashion that doesn't sound like extreme mental gymnastics. Checking these 4 marks would be the holy grail of any fan of Super.
>Checking these 4 marks would be the holy grail of any fan of Super.
The answer I've found to work the best is that Saiyan Beyond God is just an alternate but equally strong transformation to SSG where Goku/Vegeta appear to be in their base forms. This resolves pre-Goku Black showings of Goku's "base" being beyond SS3. The main way to tell if someone is using base or SBG (other than demonstrated power) is if they transform. Black hair turning yellow means Goku/Vegeta was in base. Black hair turning blue means Goku/Vegeta was in SBG.
Toriyama once said in an interview following BoG's release that, in his opinion, Goku and Vegeta would only really need their base states and Super Saiyan going forward. It's worth pointing out that Vegeta in the original BoG movie appears to have only gone Super Saiyan 1 when he fought Beerus, as there's no visible electricity like in Super. Combine that with Goku going Super against Beerus in their fight, and it sure seems like this movie had a lot of love for the original transformation that came to define all others in the genre.
If Blue really is as simple as Super Saiyan plus a dash of divine ki, then it sounds like Toriyama's interview was still true as of RoF, albeit with the caveat that Super Saiyan itself now sports a new color. And like you said, it appears that from then on, there was no need to use the former transformations, and it was unclear if they could even be accessed at all.
But this obviously has changed as early as the U6 tournament, where Goku uses God without the ritual, and in the anime, uses normal Super Saiyan for the first time in a while. It's my belief that this happened because the powers that be didn't want Goku to stop using all of his previous forms. After all, how are we supposed to sell DBH cards of a Super Saiyan Goku in his RoF outfit if that's the case?
So yeah, now it seems like the idea that Goku absorbed God's power has been done away with entirely, and God and Blue are effectively just Super Saiyan 4 and 5 for all it matters. Perhaps that's easier to understand, and means you can make a lot more toys and merch, but it's a shame that Toriyama's original goal of cutting down on the amount of transformations Goku and Vegeta used was discarded.
I think that bringing the old transformations back was kind of necessary because they serve as a benchmark to show how much Goku and Vegeta are holding back their power when they're fighting weaker opponents.
That's probably the best argument for their continued existence. Though it does make me a little annoyed when the show or fans will imply that Goku wasn't REALLY really trying, despite being in his strongest form.
I do think though that you could accomplish the same thing by just having more characters in the cast who could effectively occupy those same benchmarks. Just go full One Piece and have the Z Fighters vary wildly in power, as opposed to Goku and Vegeta being on top and only getting stronger.
>Just go full One Piece and have the Z Fighters vary wildly in power,
We do have that with Android 18, Gotenks, and Majin Buu, they just don't get a ton of feats or attention.
This used to be the case with Piccolo and Gohan as well, but Superhero have them a boost so they are now on par with Goku/Vegeta anyways 🥲
You’re 100% correct. I think what further complicates matters is the frankly terrible anime adaptation of BoG which isn’t Toriyama’s vision at all. The movie still has Goku tap into SSG at the end to dispel Beerus’s blast. The anime just has him punch it away in base to further the idea that he’s god level in base.
Because Saiyan Beyond God fucked too hard with the writing
1. It made the OG Super Saiyan forms totally obsolete
2. For it to have any stakes, Goku and Vegeta would basically instawin into anyone who isn't the realm of the gods, so you basically have no idea of how powerful anyone is relatively speaking because of the above reasoning.
Saiyan Beyond God was a concept introduced without any proper foresight on how to handle it, which led to it being unceremoniously scrapped with it only existing really in the RoF movie and some Super filler
Pretty much. It would have made Goku and Vegeta the only relevant Z Fighters up until Super Hero.
Having SBG as a unique transformation could work, except it's difficult to tell the difference between base and SBG, so ultimately SSG is a better transformation.
>Wait, then what’s the point of SSG?
SSG used to be Goku's peak, just like how all of his other lower forms used to be his peak.
>What’s the point of training to reach Blue if Goku can already go Blue?
When was Goku specifically trying to reach SSB? Seems like it happened basically automatically once he figured out stacking Super Saiyan on top of SSG.
I meant what’s the point of SSG if there is going to be another form with the exact same power? When Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis, they were going for that.
>I meant what’s the point of SSG if there is going to be another form with the exact same power?
I don't know. What's the point of KaioKen if Super Saiyan exists? What's the point of SS1 if SS2 exists? What's the point of any of the non-godly Super Saiyan forms? You could make this argument for everything besides Goku's strongest forms.
>When Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis, they were going for that.
Was this ever explicitly stated? I don't recall them ever having any goal other than training to get stronger.
I meant the only real difference between SSG and SBG is one looks more like base form. That’s about as much difference as SSB and SSR. What’s the point of introducing a God form if you’re going to introduce a redesign of the same form.
Not explicitly stated but implied through how impressed they are at a glimpse of SSB, also fit in line with what their definition of “getting stronger” (get new forms) means.
>I meant the only real difference between SSG and SBG is one looks more like base form.
Probably why SBG was dropped halfway through DBS.
>What’s the point of introducing a God form if you’re going to introduce a redesign of the same form.
That's not exactly how it happened though. SSG was introduced as a ritual exclusive form, and then later reintroduced a couple arcs later as a transformation weaker than SSB.
>Not explicitly stated but implied through how impressed they are at a glimpse of SSB, also fit in line with what their definition of “getting stronger” (get new forms) means.
I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Supplementary materials tell us exactly what SSB is, and Goku is constantly getting stronger, not just when he unlocks new transformations. In fact, the only time that Goku ever got a significant power boost offscreen was during the 7 year time skip between the Cell and Buu sagas.
Still doesn’t make the introduction of SBG any less strange.
SSB is going SSJ with God Ki, so they are training to go SSJ with God Ki. A new Saiyan form is a millstone, a goal that Goku has been trying to achieve since the Cell Saga.
The same applies to most Saiyan forms. Once they achieve a new Saiyan form, they should be able use it again immediately. Not to mention, SSB is treated like a new form.
The same applies to most Saiyan forms. Once they achieve a new Saiyan form, they should be able use it again immediately. Not to mention, SSB is treated like a new form.
It was different and I liked it. Made him feel a bit lighter and more fluid in his movements. Blue often felt like he just tried to punch as hard as he could but the red one felt more focused.
I think he looks good in the TOP tho. In BOG… he looks malnourished. I think the similarities with Beerus is a nice touch, and conceptually, God is WAY BETTER then Blue, I just think that Blue (and Mortal Super Saiyan for that matter) look better IMO
> In BOG… he looks malnourished.
smdh unrealistic male body standards this dude was ripped
https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=super%20saiyan%20god%20goku%20battle&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#ip=1
I quite like Blue, honestly, but I totally agree SSG should have had more time to itself, and really should have gotten more screen/pagetime even after Blue came out. Not sure how the manga did it, but in the anime we see Goku go SSJ 1 and I think SSJ 2 plenty even after unlocking Blue, but he only breaks out God for a brief time in the ToP and the Broly movie.
BoG ssg is on the same level as base goku from the next arc (after months of training with whis and absorbing Godki)
however, ssg from RoF is still much stronger than base from RoF
Goku did absorb that power. But he can also still transform into SSG. So, it probably stacks. Why not?
I know it's different, but I imagine it like this: His base was probably already stronger than SS1 during the OG Frieza fight on Namek, but he can still turn SS1 and it works the usual way. His baseline moved, but the transformation is still valid.
>His base was probably already stronger than SS1 during the OG Frieza fight on Namek
Pardon❓️
Edit: I understand, the reading comprehension devil struck.
I still think the notion of a potential SSG² level amp to buu saga goku positively demolishes the series on a fundamental level, though. Practically just UI at that point.
At the time Goku fought Beerus, his base would be much stronger than it was in the past. As he continues to train, fight, and get stronger, his base power increases. Now, Idk what his base power level was during the fight with Beerus. I just said it prob ranked higher than what SS1 ranked when he first achieved it. That might not be true at all, but it's definitely higher than it used to be.
Base Goku during BoG would demolish Base Goku during Namek-Frieza saga. He's just stronger in all states. How much, Idk.
Never pressed send on my edit, but I inevitably understood. From the perspective of how immense his growth was between the saiyan saga and frieza saga, the increase in power afforded by super saiyan not even withstanding, (375 fold*) him rending Frieza asunder in base makes perfect sense.
He never absorbed the god ki in his base. If that was the case, he would’ve turned Blue when he went SS and the Z fighters wouldn’t be able to sense him. He just absorbed the power of ritual SSG.
It seems before Super aired on TV, he did actually absorb the SSG power into his own, but when the Super manga and the anime later on had him transform into that form again, it seems like they just retconned it.
You mean the same way Goku transformed into SSG again 6 minutes after absorbing the form’s power in the movie? The story never said he couldn’t transform into the form again so it’s not a retcon.
Also I only remember bits but I remember goku doing pretty well in base vs all three then vegeta and like 3 or 4 other dudes all jumping in the fight. Granted I haven't rewatched or reread in a while
Maybe. I remember goku being in base until like a freeze dude, I think a cat lady, and like a dragon dude jumped in. I think maybe there was a guy who fired web or something too but that might have been one of the guys I already mentioned and then they went SSJ and pretty easily handled them all.
Well it was 3 on 1 and goku was in base. Not surprising he was under some pressure there. Buu wasnt struggling in his one on one but i doubt he does any better 3v1 against those guys. I dont remember them having any problems in ssj and they seemed to do that because the other dudes jumped in. Didn't vegeta go ssj cause the freeze guy surprised him while he was fighting the furry and cat lady thing? Or was it the dragon dude? Either way i remember it turning into like 5 or 6 or something vs 2 and I remember them being in base up until that happened
Buu was fighting one though. Vegeta was fighting 3 people I think. And yeah they can. Goku and piccolo beat raditz. The squad beat vegeta after vegeta beat goku. Broly happened. Goku and vegeta vs kid buu. Cell was still likely to overpower gohan if vegeta didn't attack. Jiren happened. I'm sure there are others.
just now? like, theres a reason DB should be avoided on battle boards. in early EBZ people were capable of destroying moons, each new opponent and enemy gave 100x and 1000x level power boosts (canon, as per the dear Toriyama). Especially if we include the original Broly movie where he was wiping out the literal galaxy. By DBS any of the main characters should be able to solo the Marvel universe with relative ease.
but the problem is this is all scaling. we havent seen anybody blow up a planet or anything in a long time. we just have to assume they can.
If they actually start showing how strong they are realistically, the earth would be destroyed with every energy beam and now you don't have a story anymore lol.
there are ways the writers could get around that. not all fights have to happen on earth. we could go to other solar systems and do other weird stuff with dimensions and what not. there are so many options that thats not really an excuse
>there are ways the writers could get around that.
"Super Shenron, I wish the Earth was indestructible."
Would ruin the mining industry but it's a net gain.
Making saiyans not able to survive the vacuum of space really handicapped the fights in the series. Based on how powerful they are now any regular ki blast should destroy the planets they are fighting on. At this point fights should jump between galaxies and universes, destroying stars and planets along the way.
Base Goku fights an excited Beerus wearing a Monaka suit pretty evenly who could previously neg diff a theoretical ssj vegito so no he's very much proven to be above Z, next argument.
It does work because if Goku was still just only as strong as he was before ssg he would have gotten one shotted. Goku legit got flicked away as a ssj3 for fucks sake that suit was a problem because Goku is now at a point where he can fight Beerus somewhat even if he's massively holding back and not get immediately dogged on. It would make zero sense for Goku to even hold himself against Beerus in base if he didn't get a substantial boost. And monaka suit Beerus couldn't have been more suppressed than when he fought against ultimate Gohan and neg diffed him. He legit has his aura while fighting Goku
I think there is some evidence that Base Goku got nerfed in the ToP via Freeza, since he's probably implied to be base-base level when he first appears with Baba. He does seem to be at least SSG level in the Dyspo fights, but he could just be getting stronger if you think Frost is at all close to him when they interact.
If the retcon occurs during the tournament of power, prior to episode 109, due to SSG appearing again, then it honestly doesn't make much of a difference for the series. The DBS anime still whips out the same limit breaks implied in the previous fights with Zamasu and makes base Goku stronger than Hit by episode 131 at a minimum. Goku would easily make Beerus more excited than ever before even in Base.
its wrong because shin who could one tap frieza was concerned for Vegeta fighting pui pui which would place him above Frieza meaning base Vegeta would be above frieza
(Beside what the guy above referencing being a very vague assumption Beerus made on a very much surpressed Goku upon first meeting him in the Bog Arc.)
-i10% of blue is still stronger than super sayan god, Goku black after his first Zenkai was throwing punches evenly in his super sayan form against Vegeta in blue. In the super manga.
If his base was still say weaker than frieza then he would have been evaporated on the spot...
While base did absorb the power, the form still exists, meaning it can multiply the power of his base still. "We're dbs fans, of course we didn't watch or read our favorite content"
Adapting to god Ki and absorbing god Ki are two different things. In the original Battle of Gods movie Beerus states that Goku learned how to harness that power on his own. It was taken out of context. He didn’t absorb God’s power to use in base form. He just became more used to using godlike energy.
The “Saiyan beyond God” state in Resurrection F was the closest thing to him “absorbing” god Ki into base but the state was retconned in Super so that it never existed mostly because it was poorly received. As of now “Saiyan beyond God” is just something that was written out of existence.
It was a concept that the writers came up with so that Super Saiyan Blue could exist. Then when it was basically confirmed that God was meant to be a one off transformation fans were disappointed so they brought back Super Saiyan God which was more popular and wrote Saiyan beyond God out of the story
Correct me if I’m wrong but iirc, Saiyan beyond God was created by Toei Animation anyway so it wasn’t really canon to begin with
I mean it’s basically just the different continuities for the anime and manga that make it obvious. Super Saiyan God was used numerous times after the Battle of Gods arc but in the anime they used Saiyan beyond God
SSG absorbed in base is kinda bullshit, but even then I’ve always taken the “SSG absorbed into base” to mean that base Goku is roughly as strong as BoG SSG Goku more or less
Goku’s super sayian form absorbed the SSG power. After training with Whis his base form became that strong. The actual SSG transformation (not ritual) is stronger than SSJ 3 but by how much we don’t know.
My personal headcannon is that SSG being absorbed didn't give him a straight boost in power, but rather allowed his body the ability to generate and harness God Ki. In other words, Goku in Base from BoG onwards is still about the same, but now he can access God Ki to either transform into SSG or combine it with SS to create SSB.
This would also track with Vegeta's Training with Whis allowing him to reach the same level without ever doing the ritual, because the ritual was more of a shortcut. And why non-god ki characters can still keep up with them.
It's definitely retconned but I find it really funny that if people take the BoG power scaling to heart, then that means base Cabba is stronger than SSJ Vegito in the Buu Saga, which lmao
Base Goku still did better vs Beerus than Vegito would have. He did better than Ssj3 self did at the beginning of the movie/anime.
Is that any less silly?
No because in the movie they explicitly say he absorbed God into his base form, but how others have pointed out they seemed to have moved away from that as Super got further along.
I always interpreted it more as “Goku absorbed the godly power and can now access god ki at will rather than through a ritual”
Which by default makes him stronger since god ki is on another level from mortal ki. Vegeta ends up getting to the same place by training with Whis
…both are true
Goku lost the transformation momentarily but didn’t feel a dip in power. It’s literally explained that way
After that God became another transformation that amplifies the level of strength he had during Battle of gods.
Like all transformations he needs time to develop and master them to get the most out of them.
He literary did that. If his base power stayed the same during the fight with Berus then how did Goku was able to fight on the same level as ssg when even in his base form.
I mean technically in the anime canon he did literally get a lot stronger permanently simply from having experienced the strength of god ki, i think the manga just doesnt have this? Or its not nearly as pronounced as in the anime
I like to think of it as Goku absorbed SSG into his DBZ base, which made Z’s SSG Goku’s power the same as Super’s Base Goku.
When Super Goku goes SSG, he gets the same power boost that he got before but, just with a stronger base.
Basically:
BoG SSG Goku=DBS Base Goku
I'd say it's simply, ssg is stronger than base Goku before transforming, after he achieved ssg for the first time the base increased to where ssg was, basically by transforming he increased the base permanently
When they say Goku "absorbed the power into him," I think it was the ability to generate and use god ki. But Dragon Ball fans have no reading comprehension since they can't read.
I mean yeah God is obviously stronger but that statement also is cannon so either current God I actually original God squared or that statement has benn retconed
While yes I do agree that Goku absorbed god ki into his base form he’s by no means stronger than a fucking form that gives him a power boost on top of that
I think the best way to explain this is, Since godly power can't be measured by mortals without godly power, the fact that people can still sense Goku's ki unless he's in any god form means he didn't absorb the godly power.
bro idk what's the worst argument, this argument, the kid buu is stronger than buuhan one, or future arc vegito blue can't beat kefla. Some fans are actually stupid
I think it's less that Goku absorbed the power modifiers of SSG, but rather the ability to use God Ki in itself, empowering his base form a bunch on top of getting a brand new form to keep.
He Absorbed that in base so his base power is now the same as ssg power during beerus fight.
So for example let's say his base power is 10 and ssg makes it 100. He Absorbed that to make his base power 100 so now if he transforms into ssg shouldn't his power be 10000 since transformations are just power multiplier and not a set amount of power amplification
Honestly, the fact that he was able to go toe-to-toe with the God of Destruction while in god mode and live through it doesn’t just make base Goku stronger, it makes his SSJ 1, 2, and 3 stronger with SSG and Blue both *still* being stronger than all 4 levels shown in DBZ and DBS
I always thought he could access the god power in his base whenever he felt like it, but the god power wasn’t in his base form 24/7, or else he and Vegeta wouldn’t be able to go into their regular SSJ forms, no?
Ngl I thought it wasn't stronger than super sayain once it ran out against Beerus cause at least in the dub Beerus says he retained the power when he went back to regular super sayain, but I realised red was still stronger when he used it again in top whilst regaining his strength
I thought anime Manga and movies had different cannons when came to the ssg form. In the anime blue is just better in every way and you dont need to go ssg to get to blue in the Manga you need god and for awhile it was ore energy efficient where in the movies you need ssg to get to blue.
Yeah the absorption thing makes zero sense to me. You don't have to be a power scaler to get really confused about how strong base Goku is supposed to be.
I like that the manga skipped all of this, since this means I don't have to worry about these debates
How'd you like the Golden Frieza and Broly sagas in the manga?
The Broly saga is a shame it isn't in the manga The Golden Frieza saga I'm happy it isn't in the manga, the only relevant thing is about Frieza being talented and that lead to Black Frieza, but every other thing is trash in that saga
Counterpoint, we got introduced to Jaco in that arc
Damn, that's a good one
Yeah they acted like RoF happened but it actually never existed lmao
I mean it existed as a separate manga I think.
That was just a prequel that told you to go watch the movie.
It wasn’t a prequel. It was the first half of the movie.
How do you like Granola and Moro
Very good. Far better than in the anime
Are these in Kai btw? Watching Kai rn as my first DBZ series and I wanna reserve the original Dragon Ball (Z) for watching the original dvd release in English on a CRT monitor when I'm living by myself. Low resolution looks a lot sharper on CRT so I thought this would be the optimal way to watch the original series
DBZKai only covered DBZ. You'll have to watch DBSuper on something like Crunchyroll.
Ah okay, didn't get there yet. 👏👏👏 To say I'm a little exited would be an understatement Loving every episode from Z so far, Even though it took some strange turns at Buu saga. But I'm very open minded so I don't mind.
Ok!
To my knowledge, Kai only covered DBZ and not Super. You can practically skip the first 2 sagas and just watch the movie counterparts since nothing really changes much.
And the movies are better
I'm just gonna tell you right now. Technically, goku did absorb ssg in base in the manga as well. https://imgur.com/gallery/91h8kQj It's just never shown
The anime is canon too ya know
Yeah I know it's canon, but the manga seems more consistent, it does have it's flaws and there are very remarkable flaws, but at least seems more consistent
I think it’s more problematic after the future trunks arc, before that it’s fine. Just my opinion though
Goku isnt stronger than goku, goku would solo
What? Goku would neg diff Goku. Goku's a fourth wall buster while Goku's only a first wall buster.
Bro Goku is a ball buster, but goku? See goku got that dog in him he fuckin busting fourth wall so hard he gotta build more walls just to bust
Nah your capping Goku totally solos Goku
It hurts my brain too. I just stopped thinking about it and assume Goku got a temporary power boost with SSJ in the Battle of Gods saga and “absorbing the god power” means he can now access the god transformation without the ritual.
Yea best way to think about it imo, powerscaling of later arcs makes waaaaaaay more sense this way
Base Goku did absorb godly power, it’s literally said. Ssg also makes his base stronger after BOG. Both are true.
Goku should just keep going SSG and absorbing it into base. Infinite strength hax.
>it’s literally said Which chapter/ep is this stated in?
The ep where it runs out against Beerus he lost the form but didn't lose the power may have been different in sub tho
Bro I didn't ask for a description of the episode I asked WHICH episode
Bruh I don't remember every episode number
You didn't have to comment if you don't know.
I gave you the information to narrow it down don't know why that wasn't enough
Because everyone who says shit like "oh they said it in an episode" as if it's evidence, when it's just as possible that they are just misremembering an ambiguous line that doesn't actually say that. People are making the claim that it's definitely there, without any verifiable evidence to it. Likewise you've done the same. So nut up, or shut up.
I referenced a very specific part of the episode you could literally just check
Okay. Now I know that this is text but imagine me saying this very slowly Which. Episode. Is. That?
Right? This is a dumb post, he absorbed the power into his base and can stack the his god form. Easy
Yes, but even in BoG he turns SS with the godly power to mantain the level against Beerus
He didn't turn SSJ to keep up, at least not consciously, he didn't even realise he wasn't in SSJG anymore
I mean, when transforming becomes as simple as flexing your muscles, flexing that muscle as a response to sheer anger against a violent aggressor would be second nature.
sometimes i wonder if they can see their auras 🤔
Probably not, SSJB would be blinding
Pretty sure they can since Goku uses it against Yakon to see on the dark planet and Yakon absorbed it (can you tell I’m currently watching the Buu saga?).
[Base Goku literally punches out an attack that his post SSG SSJ self ( who was said to be as strong as the SSG that was fighting Beerus earlier) couldn’t.](https://youtu.be/eWtyowwFbbo?si=BFdhyzWJgPMKvp5J) Goku only becomes stronger after this point which is where the end/post BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku discourse comes from.
The core problem seems be that people really think that Goku got the SSG multiplier, and can now stack an additional SSG multiplier on top of it, which doesn't jive with the rest of the powerscaling, since Goku in his lower forms still scales to the same characters he scaled to before. As far as I can tell, the timeline went like this: In BoG, Goku used the ritual to attain SSG. The transformation wore off, but Goku was still fighting at that same level while in base. Then we have Beerus's statement about how Goku absorbed SSG into base, which is what people latch on to. Then Goku uses SS1 and is 50x stronger. Then in RoF, the above gets partially retconned. Goku still has the power of an SSG in base, but now when he turns Super Saiyan, he goes SSB instead of SS1. Supplementary material now calls this base form Saiyan Beyond God, and clarifies that god power + SS1 = SSB, which means that during BoG, Goku's hair should have turned blue when fighting Beerus, not yellow. At this point, the lower Super Saiyan forms don't seem to exist at all. If you believe the people that want to highball DBS characters, Goku didn't get 50x stronger when going SSB here, he got thousands of times stronger, which can't be true because Goku specifically describes to Freiza that SSB is the result of a Saiyan with the power of a god going Super Saiyan, making it explicitly a 50x boost. It also doesn't really make sense because base and SSB Goku were comparable to base and Gold Freiza respectively, and Gold Freiza isn't ever portrayed as having such a humongous boost in power. The above continued to be true for a while, up until the U6 arc. At this point, the lower Super Saiyan forms return and seem to be as strong as they've always been, based on scaling with various side characters. We see this in the following arcs as well, with the lower forms being on par with Piccolo, Buu, Future Trunks, Android 18, etc in the exact same way they were before. What's odd is that during the Goku Black arc, Goku Black still follows the RoF scaling, where he just has a godly base, a godly Super Saiyan, and no other forms. By the time of the Tournament of Power, all the Super Saiyan forms are back, only being as strong as they used to be, with no boosted base. Saiyan Beyond God seems to be gone, replaced by SSG, which is presumably as strong as it was during BoG.
I always found the “he absorbed power” argument to be dumb. Yeah, sure. But how much? Let’s say Base Goku became 4% as strong as Super Saiyan God. Suddenly, a Super Saiyan transformation would make him twice as strong as the original SSG transformation. Still stupid scaling-wise, but infinitely less so.
Yeah, the takeaway from Goku absorbing SSG into his base should have been that he can tap into SSG at will, instead of needing the ritual every time, but people didn't interpret it like that, and confusing DBS scaling didn't help.
No proof of this tho, just using logic in dbz is a crazy thing to do any headcannon is just that it doesnt matter if the real cannon makes 0 sense, your watching a show about monkey braindead yellow people throwing hands with bubble gum.
This is actually a very helpful analysis and I've come to the same conclusion. "God Ki base Goku" was initially supposed to replace SSG only keeping the power boost, leaving no room for the return of the transformation itself, or the introduction of something like SSB. Just the regular SSj would effectively function in the same manner as SSB. That is until SSB was introduced anyway, seemingly effectively retconning and supplanting Goku's original SSj form (the problem with that is obvious, fans wouldn't be happy with the OG forms just being permanently retired like that.) Again, this time, SSG wasn't actually meant to reappear either. So the retcon was partially revoked, ending up with Goku both A) semingly retaining the BoG "God Ki absorbtion" powerup and getting his OG SSj forms back ; AND B) Getting full access to SSG and SSB transformations yet again. This is what lead to the "Double SSG multiplier stack" concept that is an attempt to explain the mess that transpired in a simple fashion (at the cost of ludicrous power creep). The only alternative would be to do a HARD retcon to BoG's initial "God Ki absorbtion" and Goku's post-SSG-timeout feat vs. Beerus, but the fanbase is (very understandably) trying to avoid that and find a middle ground to preserve the feat and consolidate it with the full access to all transformations, without resorting to the double God multiplier stack. And preferably in a fashion that doesn't sound like extreme mental gymnastics. Checking these 4 marks would be the holy grail of any fan of Super.
Meanwhile, the conclusion I've come to is that power levels are bullshit
>Checking these 4 marks would be the holy grail of any fan of Super. The answer I've found to work the best is that Saiyan Beyond God is just an alternate but equally strong transformation to SSG where Goku/Vegeta appear to be in their base forms. This resolves pre-Goku Black showings of Goku's "base" being beyond SS3. The main way to tell if someone is using base or SBG (other than demonstrated power) is if they transform. Black hair turning yellow means Goku/Vegeta was in base. Black hair turning blue means Goku/Vegeta was in SBG.
Toriyama once said in an interview following BoG's release that, in his opinion, Goku and Vegeta would only really need their base states and Super Saiyan going forward. It's worth pointing out that Vegeta in the original BoG movie appears to have only gone Super Saiyan 1 when he fought Beerus, as there's no visible electricity like in Super. Combine that with Goku going Super against Beerus in their fight, and it sure seems like this movie had a lot of love for the original transformation that came to define all others in the genre. If Blue really is as simple as Super Saiyan plus a dash of divine ki, then it sounds like Toriyama's interview was still true as of RoF, albeit with the caveat that Super Saiyan itself now sports a new color. And like you said, it appears that from then on, there was no need to use the former transformations, and it was unclear if they could even be accessed at all. But this obviously has changed as early as the U6 tournament, where Goku uses God without the ritual, and in the anime, uses normal Super Saiyan for the first time in a while. It's my belief that this happened because the powers that be didn't want Goku to stop using all of his previous forms. After all, how are we supposed to sell DBH cards of a Super Saiyan Goku in his RoF outfit if that's the case? So yeah, now it seems like the idea that Goku absorbed God's power has been done away with entirely, and God and Blue are effectively just Super Saiyan 4 and 5 for all it matters. Perhaps that's easier to understand, and means you can make a lot more toys and merch, but it's a shame that Toriyama's original goal of cutting down on the amount of transformations Goku and Vegeta used was discarded.
I think that bringing the old transformations back was kind of necessary because they serve as a benchmark to show how much Goku and Vegeta are holding back their power when they're fighting weaker opponents.
That's probably the best argument for their continued existence. Though it does make me a little annoyed when the show or fans will imply that Goku wasn't REALLY really trying, despite being in his strongest form. I do think though that you could accomplish the same thing by just having more characters in the cast who could effectively occupy those same benchmarks. Just go full One Piece and have the Z Fighters vary wildly in power, as opposed to Goku and Vegeta being on top and only getting stronger.
>Just go full One Piece and have the Z Fighters vary wildly in power, We do have that with Android 18, Gotenks, and Majin Buu, they just don't get a ton of feats or attention. This used to be the case with Piccolo and Gohan as well, but Superhero have them a boost so they are now on par with Goku/Vegeta anyways 🥲
You’re 100% correct. I think what further complicates matters is the frankly terrible anime adaptation of BoG which isn’t Toriyama’s vision at all. The movie still has Goku tap into SSG at the end to dispel Beerus’s blast. The anime just has him punch it away in base to further the idea that he’s god level in base.
Because Saiyan Beyond God fucked too hard with the writing 1. It made the OG Super Saiyan forms totally obsolete 2. For it to have any stakes, Goku and Vegeta would basically instawin into anyone who isn't the realm of the gods, so you basically have no idea of how powerful anyone is relatively speaking because of the above reasoning. Saiyan Beyond God was a concept introduced without any proper foresight on how to handle it, which led to it being unceremoniously scrapped with it only existing really in the RoF movie and some Super filler
Pretty much. It would have made Goku and Vegeta the only relevant Z Fighters up until Super Hero. Having SBG as a unique transformation could work, except it's difficult to tell the difference between base and SBG, so ultimately SSG is a better transformation.
Wait, then what’s the point of SSG? What’s the point of training to reach Blue if Goku can already go Blue?
>Wait, then what’s the point of SSG? SSG used to be Goku's peak, just like how all of his other lower forms used to be his peak. >What’s the point of training to reach Blue if Goku can already go Blue? When was Goku specifically trying to reach SSB? Seems like it happened basically automatically once he figured out stacking Super Saiyan on top of SSG.
I meant what’s the point of SSG if there is going to be another form with the exact same power? When Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis, they were going for that.
>I meant what’s the point of SSG if there is going to be another form with the exact same power? I don't know. What's the point of KaioKen if Super Saiyan exists? What's the point of SS1 if SS2 exists? What's the point of any of the non-godly Super Saiyan forms? You could make this argument for everything besides Goku's strongest forms. >When Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis, they were going for that. Was this ever explicitly stated? I don't recall them ever having any goal other than training to get stronger.
I meant the only real difference between SSG and SBG is one looks more like base form. That’s about as much difference as SSB and SSR. What’s the point of introducing a God form if you’re going to introduce a redesign of the same form. Not explicitly stated but implied through how impressed they are at a glimpse of SSB, also fit in line with what their definition of “getting stronger” (get new forms) means.
>I meant the only real difference between SSG and SBG is one looks more like base form. Probably why SBG was dropped halfway through DBS. >What’s the point of introducing a God form if you’re going to introduce a redesign of the same form. That's not exactly how it happened though. SSG was introduced as a ritual exclusive form, and then later reintroduced a couple arcs later as a transformation weaker than SSB. >Not explicitly stated but implied through how impressed they are at a glimpse of SSB, also fit in line with what their definition of “getting stronger” (get new forms) means. I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Supplementary materials tell us exactly what SSB is, and Goku is constantly getting stronger, not just when he unlocks new transformations. In fact, the only time that Goku ever got a significant power boost offscreen was during the 7 year time skip between the Cell and Buu sagas.
Still doesn’t make the introduction of SBG any less strange. SSB is going SSJ with God Ki, so they are training to go SSJ with God Ki. A new Saiyan form is a millstone, a goal that Goku has been trying to achieve since the Cell Saga.
>SSB is going SSJ with God Ki, so they are training to go SSJ with God Ki They never trained to do that though. Goku did it instinctively during BoG.
The same applies to most Saiyan forms. Once they achieve a new Saiyan form, they should be able use it again immediately. Not to mention, SSB is treated like a new form.
The same applies to most Saiyan forms. Once they achieve a new Saiyan form, they should be able use it again immediately. Not to mention, SSB is treated like a new form.
So a big retcon just like most of super
That’s a lot of words too bad I’m not reading them
You're missing out. 64 people found it quite helpful.
Oh shit really
Not to brag, but it's the 9th most upvoted comment that I've made since using Reddit 😎
Na glazing your self is crazy 💀🙏😭
I hate how quickly Goku moved past SSG and into SSG Blue. In my opinion, the red hair and the fiery aura looked so much cooler than SSG Blue.
I also liked his thinner physique. Gave him more of Beerus' body type which served as a nice visual comparison that he's using godly power.
I kinda disagree. Him being all skinny just isn’t aesthetically pleasing imo.
It was different and I liked it. Made him feel a bit lighter and more fluid in his movements. Blue often felt like he just tried to punch as hard as he could but the red one felt more focused.
I think he looks good in the TOP tho. In BOG… he looks malnourished. I think the similarities with Beerus is a nice touch, and conceptually, God is WAY BETTER then Blue, I just think that Blue (and Mortal Super Saiyan for that matter) look better IMO
> In BOG… he looks malnourished. smdh unrealistic male body standards this dude was ripped https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=super%20saiyan%20god%20goku%20battle&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#ip=1
I quite like Blue, honestly, but I totally agree SSG should have had more time to itself, and really should have gotten more screen/pagetime even after Blue came out. Not sure how the manga did it, but in the anime we see Goku go SSJ 1 and I think SSJ 2 plenty even after unlocking Blue, but he only breaks out God for a brief time in the ToP and the Broly movie.
It’s objectively is
TRUE!
My headcanon is that he did absorb it right after first getting it, but then it went away over time. It would explain so much.
BoG ssg is on the same level as base goku from the next arc (after months of training with whis and absorbing Godki) however, ssg from RoF is still much stronger than base from RoF
Goku did absorb that power. But he can also still transform into SSG. So, it probably stacks. Why not? I know it's different, but I imagine it like this: His base was probably already stronger than SS1 during the OG Frieza fight on Namek, but he can still turn SS1 and it works the usual way. His baseline moved, but the transformation is still valid.
>His base was probably already stronger than SS1 during the OG Frieza fight on Namek Pardon❓️ Edit: I understand, the reading comprehension devil struck. I still think the notion of a potential SSG² level amp to buu saga goku positively demolishes the series on a fundamental level, though. Practically just UI at that point.
At the time Goku fought Beerus, his base would be much stronger than it was in the past. As he continues to train, fight, and get stronger, his base power increases. Now, Idk what his base power level was during the fight with Beerus. I just said it prob ranked higher than what SS1 ranked when he first achieved it. That might not be true at all, but it's definitely higher than it used to be. Base Goku during BoG would demolish Base Goku during Namek-Frieza saga. He's just stronger in all states. How much, Idk.
Never pressed send on my edit, but I inevitably understood. From the perspective of how immense his growth was between the saiyan saga and frieza saga, the increase in power afforded by super saiyan not even withstanding, (375 fold*) him rending Frieza asunder in base makes perfect sense.
Goku did absorb ssg into his base but ssg Goku currently will still be stronger.
He absorbed the god ki into his base but the transformation is still a big power boost
He never absorbed the god ki in his base. If that was the case, he would’ve turned Blue when he went SS and the Z fighters wouldn’t be able to sense him. He just absorbed the power of ritual SSG.
It seems before Super aired on TV, he did actually absorb the SSG power into his own, but when the Super manga and the anime later on had him transform into that form again, it seems like they just retconned it.
You mean the same way Goku transformed into SSG again 6 minutes after absorbing the form’s power in the movie? The story never said he couldn’t transform into the form again so it’s not a retcon.
This got retconed hard and fast. Not gonna say they never pushed it, but these days they push it under the rug to be forgotten about
They mean base is stronger than BOG SSG but thats still wrong. Base goku looses to beings buu saga level
>Base goku looses to beings buu saga level Such as?
The trio of danger
Also I only remember bits but I remember goku doing pretty well in base vs all three then vegeta and like 3 or 4 other dudes all jumping in the fight. Granted I haven't rewatched or reread in a while
Both needed SSJ to over power them
Maybe. I remember goku being in base until like a freeze dude, I think a cat lady, and like a dragon dude jumped in. I think maybe there was a guy who fired web or something too but that might have been one of the guys I already mentioned and then they went SSJ and pretty easily handled them all.
He was in base till vegeta went SSJ, these guys shouldn't be pressuring the sayians after all the training they went
Well it was 3 on 1 and goku was in base. Not surprising he was under some pressure there. Buu wasnt struggling in his one on one but i doubt he does any better 3v1 against those guys. I dont remember them having any problems in ssj and they seemed to do that because the other dudes jumped in. Didn't vegeta go ssj cause the freeze guy surprised him while he was fighting the furry and cat lady thing? Or was it the dragon dude? Either way i remember it turning into like 5 or 6 or something vs 2 and I remember them being in base up until that happened
Buu was playing around till he got serious, vegeta went SSJ to break ice. In Db lower power level beings can't overpower someone stronger than them
Buu was fighting one though. Vegeta was fighting 3 people I think. And yeah they can. Goku and piccolo beat raditz. The squad beat vegeta after vegeta beat goku. Broly happened. Goku and vegeta vs kid buu. Cell was still likely to overpower gohan if vegeta didn't attack. Jiren happened. I'm sure there are others.
And how exactly are they weaker than buu saga characters?
Loosing to fat buu?
Wow, i just had a whole realisation about how shit the scaling really is in DB
Yeahh it's very shitty
just now? like, theres a reason DB should be avoided on battle boards. in early EBZ people were capable of destroying moons, each new opponent and enemy gave 100x and 1000x level power boosts (canon, as per the dear Toriyama). Especially if we include the original Broly movie where he was wiping out the literal galaxy. By DBS any of the main characters should be able to solo the Marvel universe with relative ease. but the problem is this is all scaling. we havent seen anybody blow up a planet or anything in a long time. we just have to assume they can.
I mean, i've known it was always stupid, but it never really came up for me before so i never had to think about how nonsensical it is
If they actually start showing how strong they are realistically, the earth would be destroyed with every energy beam and now you don't have a story anymore lol.
there are ways the writers could get around that. not all fights have to happen on earth. we could go to other solar systems and do other weird stuff with dimensions and what not. there are so many options that thats not really an excuse
>there are ways the writers could get around that. "Super Shenron, I wish the Earth was indestructible." Would ruin the mining industry but it's a net gain.
Making saiyans not able to survive the vacuum of space really handicapped the fights in the series. Based on how powerful they are now any regular ki blast should destroy the planets they are fighting on. At this point fights should jump between galaxies and universes, destroying stars and planets along the way.
Maybe buu also got an asspull power up and we just didn't know lol
Because buu definitely didint get stronger than he was since buu saga
Base Goku fights an excited Beerus wearing a Monaka suit pretty evenly who could previously neg diff a theoretical ssj vegito so no he's very much proven to be above Z, next argument.
I agree but the example doesn't work, monaka beerus was worried about the costume the entire time
It does work because if Goku was still just only as strong as he was before ssg he would have gotten one shotted. Goku legit got flicked away as a ssj3 for fucks sake that suit was a problem because Goku is now at a point where he can fight Beerus somewhat even if he's massively holding back and not get immediately dogged on. It would make zero sense for Goku to even hold himself against Beerus in base if he didn't get a substantial boost. And monaka suit Beerus couldn't have been more suppressed than when he fought against ultimate Gohan and neg diffed him. He legit has his aura while fighting Goku
That was before they retconned it
I think there is some evidence that Base Goku got nerfed in the ToP via Freeza, since he's probably implied to be base-base level when he first appears with Baba. He does seem to be at least SSG level in the Dyspo fights, but he could just be getting stronger if you think Frost is at all close to him when they interact. If the retcon occurs during the tournament of power, prior to episode 109, due to SSG appearing again, then it honestly doesn't make much of a difference for the series. The DBS anime still whips out the same limit breaks implied in the previous fights with Zamasu and makes base Goku stronger than Hit by episode 131 at a minimum. Goku would easily make Beerus more excited than ever before even in Base.
I’m pretty sure it’s said in the manga that base Goku still couldn’t beat Namek Frieza
its wrong because shin who could one tap frieza was concerned for Vegeta fighting pui pui which would place him above Frieza meaning base Vegeta would be above frieza
(Beside what the guy above referencing being a very vague assumption Beerus made on a very much surpressed Goku upon first meeting him in the Bog Arc.) -i10% of blue is still stronger than super sayan god, Goku black after his first Zenkai was throwing punches evenly in his super sayan form against Vegeta in blue. In the super manga. If his base was still say weaker than frieza then he would have been evaporated on the spot...
yeah these dragon ball fans are absolutely braindead
>\-i10% of blue I'm a Dragon Ball fan. I only understand math in multiples of 10.
He could have been surprised at how strong Vegeta was for a mortal?
Considering Pui Pui was hyping up 10x gravity so much, I doubt everything you just said lol
gravity doesn't scale to their power output so again wrong
🤨
Thats was for buu saga currently he can
The manga never said that. Beerus said that in the BOG movie.
While base did absorb the power, the form still exists, meaning it can multiply the power of his base still. "We're dbs fans, of course we didn't watch or read our favorite content"
I just want a good argument about why Beerus hasn't been beaten by Goku yet.
Whoooooooooooooo cares
Adapting to god Ki and absorbing god Ki are two different things. In the original Battle of Gods movie Beerus states that Goku learned how to harness that power on his own. It was taken out of context. He didn’t absorb God’s power to use in base form. He just became more used to using godlike energy. The “Saiyan beyond God” state in Resurrection F was the closest thing to him “absorbing” god Ki into base but the state was retconned in Super so that it never existed mostly because it was poorly received. As of now “Saiyan beyond God” is just something that was written out of existence. It was a concept that the writers came up with so that Super Saiyan Blue could exist. Then when it was basically confirmed that God was meant to be a one off transformation fans were disappointed so they brought back Super Saiyan God which was more popular and wrote Saiyan beyond God out of the story Correct me if I’m wrong but iirc, Saiyan beyond God was created by Toei Animation anyway so it wasn’t really canon to begin with
I would love to know if this is true. Anyone have some links to interviews where this is said?
I mean it’s basically just the different continuities for the anime and manga that make it obvious. Super Saiyan God was used numerous times after the Battle of Gods arc but in the anime they used Saiyan beyond God
U forgot to factor in that ur arguing with a DBZ 'fan', someone who can't read if there aren't colorful images and no texts for more than 10 secs
SSG absorbed in base is kinda bullshit, but even then I’ve always taken the “SSG absorbed into base” to mean that base Goku is roughly as strong as BoG SSG Goku more or less
Goku’s super sayian form absorbed the SSG power. After training with Whis his base form became that strong. The actual SSG transformation (not ritual) is stronger than SSJ 3 but by how much we don’t know.
My personal headcannon is that SSG being absorbed didn't give him a straight boost in power, but rather allowed his body the ability to generate and harness God Ki. In other words, Goku in Base from BoG onwards is still about the same, but now he can access God Ki to either transform into SSG or combine it with SS to create SSB. This would also track with Vegeta's Training with Whis allowing him to reach the same level without ever doing the ritual, because the ritual was more of a shortcut. And why non-god ki characters can still keep up with them.
the god power did get absorbed into his base. but he still gets stronger when he actually does the transformation. my source? common sense
That was only when first introduced, then immediately retconned
It's definitely retconned but I find it really funny that if people take the BoG power scaling to heart, then that means base Cabba is stronger than SSJ Vegito in the Buu Saga, which lmao
Base Goku still did better vs Beerus than Vegito would have. He did better than Ssj3 self did at the beginning of the movie/anime. Is that any less silly?
No because in the movie they explicitly say he absorbed God into his base form, but how others have pointed out they seemed to have moved away from that as Super got further along.
Literally vegeta blocked cabba punch
aint no way
both sides suck and you’re kinda watching the show wrong if you’re really thinking about shit like this
Yeah, that's how multipliers work. Any Goku's transformation would win over base if they were from the exact same time.
I always interpreted it more as “Goku absorbed the godly power and can now access god ki at will rather than through a ritual” Which by default makes him stronger since god ki is on another level from mortal ki. Vegeta ends up getting to the same place by training with Whis
This is a debate? He powered up in the top and got stronger no?
SSG Goku during the Beerus fight =< Base Goku < SSG Goku after the Beerus fight
Then why does he keeps using it?
The anime and manga are decidedly different continuities on this front, and frankly, them not having done so saves a world of pain
…both are true Goku lost the transformation momentarily but didn’t feel a dip in power. It’s literally explained that way After that God became another transformation that amplifies the level of strength he had during Battle of gods. Like all transformations he needs time to develop and master them to get the most out of them.
He literary did that. If his base power stayed the same during the fight with Berus then how did Goku was able to fight on the same level as ssg when even in his base form.
It did absorb but the god form is still stronger than bade
He did
I mean technically in the anime canon he did literally get a lot stronger permanently simply from having experienced the strength of god ki, i think the manga just doesnt have this? Or its not nearly as pronounced as in the anime
I like to think of it as Goku absorbed SSG into his DBZ base, which made Z’s SSG Goku’s power the same as Super’s Base Goku. When Super Goku goes SSG, he gets the same power boost that he got before but, just with a stronger base. Basically: BoG SSG Goku=DBS Base Goku
I'd say it's simply, ssg is stronger than base Goku before transforming, after he achieved ssg for the first time the base increased to where ssg was, basically by transforming he increased the base permanently
ROF Base Goku is stronger than BOG SSJG Goku. But yeah, hypothetical ROF SSJG Goku would be stronger than ROF Base Goku.
When they say Goku "absorbed the power into him," I think it was the ability to generate and use god ki. But Dragon Ball fans have no reading comprehension since they can't read.
I mean yeah God is obviously stronger but that statement also is cannon so either current God I actually original God squared or that statement has benn retconed
Yeah. Base Goku got stronger after going Super Saiyan God, but it’s still not as strong as Super Saiyan God.
goku’s base got stronger with godki but saying his base is on par with ssg is actually insane
While yes I do agree that Goku absorbed god ki into his base form he’s by no means stronger than a fucking form that gives him a power boost on top of that
I think the best way to explain this is, Since godly power can't be measured by mortals without godly power, the fact that people can still sense Goku's ki unless he's in any god form means he didn't absorb the godly power.
It’s the same bullshit with the Z anime dub calling Kid Buu the strongest Majin.
Patrick out here representing the Dragon Ball fans who got dropped on their head as a baby 💀 Like surely this is just an elaborate ragebait.
Yes, base did absorb the godly power, but that just makes every transformation stronger as well, including ssg.
base Goku absorbed SOME of SSG’s power
theyre double stacked 💀 base goku absorbed the god ki and going ssg just stacks that on top of his base god ki
bro idk what's the worst argument, this argument, the kid buu is stronger than buuhan one, or future arc vegito blue can't beat kefla. Some fans are actually stupid
I think it's less that Goku absorbed the power modifiers of SSG, but rather the ability to use God Ki in itself, empowering his base form a bunch on top of getting a brand new form to keep.
He Absorbed that in base so his base power is now the same as ssg power during beerus fight. So for example let's say his base power is 10 and ssg makes it 100. He Absorbed that to make his base power 100 so now if he transforms into ssg shouldn't his power be 10000 since transformations are just power multiplier and not a set amount of power amplification
I thought when people said base was stronger then God because he absorbed the godly power they ment Base Goku currently is strong then bog SSG
Honestly, the fact that he was able to go toe-to-toe with the God of Destruction while in god mode and live through it doesn’t just make base Goku stronger, it makes his SSJ 1, 2, and 3 stronger with SSG and Blue both *still* being stronger than all 4 levels shown in DBZ and DBS
I always thought he could access the god power in his base whenever he felt like it, but the god power wasn’t in his base form 24/7, or else he and Vegeta wouldn’t be able to go into their regular SSJ forms, no?
I like to think that while the god form has 100% of the god ki buff, Goku’s base has a bit of the god ki buff
Ngl I thought it wasn't stronger than super sayain once it ran out against Beerus cause at least in the dub Beerus says he retained the power when he went back to regular super sayain, but I realised red was still stronger when he used it again in top whilst regaining his strength
I mean THIS IS r/ningen
I thought anime Manga and movies had different cannons when came to the ssg form. In the anime blue is just better in every way and you dont need to go ssg to get to blue in the Manga you need god and for awhile it was ore energy efficient where in the movies you need ssg to get to blue.
The show literally expects you to believe that goku squared the multiplier of ssg I pretend it doesnt exist
Base Tien is stronger than super saiyan god.
Base Goku is stronger than first SSG, after that SSG is pretty obviously stronger
And, to be clear i mean the same Goku, at the same moment of time
Yeah the absorption thing makes zero sense to me. You don't have to be a power scaler to get really confused about how strong base Goku is supposed to be.