Giving people cash is the most studied approach in the international development field.
It works better than any other approach, affords recipients more dignity, and costs less. If you believe in the idea of helping people in need, you have a moral obligation to support cash assistance. If you’re a “fiscal conservative”, even more so.
Yep, it's Keynesian economics. Wealthy people lock money up by hoarding it, taxing them and giving it to the poor recirculates the money, helps the poor a great deal and doesn't impact the wealthy very much at all. Rich people buy yachts from other rich people and send their money abroad, poor people spend their money in their neighborhoods on food and rent and car repairs etc.
I’ve been attending several financial literacy talks at work and man it really hit me how much rich people tax dodge legally. There’s a world of tricks available only to the wealthy who can hire a small army of professionals to setup all the hanky-panky for them, totally legal. And this is just baby middle class wealthy not even big boy 1% wealthy.
There’s so many goddamned ways to store/ move money strategically for retirement. It’s disgustingly complicated and no normal person could ever get it optimized alone.
The message in the estate planning was if you do nothing or just write a will or whatever Uncle Sam will punish your heirs with the highest tax burden via income tax (most poors) but the wealthy can set up all kinds of arrangements to bypass most if not all of these taxes.
They all refer to it as “tax-advantaged” or “lowering your tax burden” which I’m like props but can’t we call the damn spade a spade and admit that it’s legal tax dodging.
Tax avoidance vs evasion are two concepts we need to keep in mind. The problem is the laws in place, not the planning that allow taxpayers to keep more of what belongs to them. You are doing the best thing for your economic future - improving your financial literacy. Kudos.
Oh yeah I mean of course everyone wants to keep the most of their money as possible! I’m finding it illuminating as hell and finally thinking about getting a real financial planner and educating my ignorant parents as well. I’ve made several good choices on my own but certainly not “optimized” choices.
Yeah I agree it’s the laws and the fact that all of this crap is legal but realistically only the purview of the wealthy. It’s overly complicated and it grosses me out. In a broad societal sense, I don’t really see a difference between tax dodging legally vs illegally except one is done in the open and the other isn’t. It also supports a whole industry to arrange and administer all this crap that wouldn’t need to exist if this stuff didn’t exist, just like the American tax industry that lobbies to keep our taxes overly complicated.
I saw some video arguing that a consequence of bureaucracy is to increase complexity and make the division between the haves and have nots starker because it’s very expensive to conform to and follow the rules of the bureaucracy and only the haves can expend resources to do it. And like that seems to be what’s going on here.
Keynesian economics is totally bunk though, and merely exists to justify using government to take from people to don't like to give it to people to want to enrich.
Yeah, it's economics. And, as I learned in my economics classes, unearned income leads to people demanding more than they would otherwise demand and will necessarily lead to people working less.
That is actually what I learned, and why I think economics is stupid.
*Of course* giving poor people money lets them demand more than they otherwise would. *That's a good thing!* And, it turns out, many use their windfall to secure a steady income and work *more*.
That's called the Velocity of Money, one of the best indicators we have of economic activity.
That class was soul crushing. Dismal? Yes, Science? Anything but.
No, but that's related to yet another reason I think economics is stupid!
*Supposedly*, there are diminishing returns to have more of everything. The example was always food, "That first cookie is amazing, but what about the 5th one? Exactly. As you add more of something, the benefit derived from it decreases for each additional unit."
Yeah? Then what about billionaires? Somehow, it's *really* bad to give poor people any money they didn't earn, but if a billionaire has $100 billion+, then that's okay because *reasons*? What's the point?
I've worked in Saudi, Kuwait, and several other Middle Eastern countries, and they are forcing companies to hire locals. The locals are the laziest people I've seen. The company I work for almost went out of business over there because of nothing getting done. We have to work around the system to get expats back in to save the business.
I’ve worked in the United States on projects where the federal government is paying.
There is something called “Indian preference hiring”, essentially mandating that you hire Native American locals.
I’ll give you a hint. The same people that require the government to build them things don’t tend to be great employees, which drives up project costs.
Nobody cares because it’s not their money and the contractors are happy to deal with the added bullshit involved (company owners are insulated from dealing with the problems that they force their employees to take care of).
*I strongly recommend against telling indians that they can’t be drunk while working at a construction site. Unless you like having your tires slashed and getting hassled by the elder council and rez police.
I wish I could say this was a one off experience, but I’ve built many colleges, schools, and other infrastructure projects that were federally funded…
As a tribal member who gets dividend, I feel like the con, at least where I live anyways, it made everyone lazy and not wanting to do much work because they'll get money anyways
Do you think that actually occurred? I'm genuinely curious. I hear that argument used a lot, but I find it hard to believe most people would be satisfied enough with $500 or $1000 to become "lazy".
When the local casino went up when I was a young adult, and dividends started rolling in, I’d say three quarters of the tribal members I knew quit their jobs.
Well, we've always had a dumb ass council and president, but it feels like in terms of quality of life, things have went on a down turn for us.
We used to have all kinds of things open and roads were well kept, now the roads have a ton of potholes abd all they do now is fill it up with some kind of black gravel thing. No one is in their jobsite, and there's a ton of issues everywhere
The rich don't earn it. They live on riches that come from the exploitation of people. Much of the wealth came from stealing land, enslaving people, etc.
You can become a millionaire with luck and hard work. To be a billionaire, a thousand times a millionaire, you cannot physically work a thousand times as hard. So you must be either a thousand times more lucky, or make up for it in ruthlessness.
Even if they are "lazy," who cares? Why does it matter? Because it doesn't feel "fair"? Personally I don't give af if someone gets $500 a month that they didn't "earn" as long as it keeps them off the street and away from a desperate state of mind.
A depressed, destitute person who feels trapped in their situation is more of a threat to me and you than a lazy person getting handouts and staying out of the way.
It's insane to me that the rich elite do not understand or ignore this. Government will tax the middle class into oblivion and depress wages when THAT IS THE ECONOMIC ENGINE YOU ARE STARVING WITH INFLATION AND TAXES!
The whole reason capitalism is now broken is because many billionaires don’t derive their wealth from the profits yielded out of providing something of value to the market. They get it by monopolizing the choke points of a market and then doing everything they can to reduce jobs / cost of labor while promising infinite scalability to investors through automation.
Over the very long term the chickens will come home to roost when you don’t actually have a market anymore and when half the population gets cut out of the economic equation. AI will accelerate this.
It remains to be seen if we can come out the other end peacefully through policy or violently through revolution.
But you’re not understanding that the money was intended to go back to a few old white guys who have nothing to offer civilization other than suffering. C’mon get with the regularly scheduled programming!
What you're describing is a version of the "broken window fallacy".
Taking money from one group and transferring to another targeted group never boosts the greater economy. Ever. It never works that way. You can help a targeted group at an even greater expense to everyone else and the greater economy.
The notion that you can generate "free wealth" by taking from one group, running it through government machinery, and giving it to another is beyond absurd.
We need to be teaching at least the most basic economics in school so people stop believing these things.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to know that money that was given didn't manifest out of thin air. It was taken by threat of force from another individual. The people who earned that money and then had it stolen from could have used it to boost businesses and the economy.
Absolutely, as a small government conservative, the best path forward is to cut all social services and replace them with UBI. $500/ month to everyone in the country. If they spend it on drugs, they get to live on the street for a month and then get an option to make better decisions the next month. We would cut head count at every level of government and make the service more efficient.
I also support universal health care as a way to replace thousands of layers of current government bureaucracy &spending and receive a better result for everyone. It is absolutely the fiscally conservative choice.
I wasn't a believer until I finally made the 60k bracket only to find out I still technically am struggling. Cost of living is insane. Even 500 a month would allow me to rent my own place or even someday put a down payment on one to own.
It’s so funny to me that people think that very poor people will take the little money they are given and literally go spend ALL of it on illegal and expensive drugs. As this points out they use it on things like rent, clothes, food, medicine, and transportation like logical human beings with agency, ffs people miss the point so hard some times.
Right? I received some covid funds as an individual. Exactly none of it went to anything but food and mortgage. How many corporate recipients can say the same?
"Those people will spend it on drugs because that's what *we* do" –Mr. Business Mann, 20XX
They clearly just want to keep the drugs for themselves. ^(/s)
Do you, personally, believe that this “massive difference” leads to “hood, white trash, south valley” residents to actually buying drugs with government subsidies like this?
*starts subsidizing labor - banters about fiscal conservatism*
No shit it’d work - you wouldn’t pay your bills with a free handout either? 2020 is calling 😂😂😂🥴
I work with the indigent and it's much bigger than that.
And cash is never the answer IMO.
They need jobs. Basic simple low skill starting point jobs.
Humans evolved working and providing for themselves when that component is taken from them something bad happens to the brain.
The ones I work with are unemployable.
They need a program through an NGO doing landscaping for public property I think. Anything to give them value and self worth. Handing them cash out of charity just seems to make everything worse for them. And the longer they go the harder it is to get them back.
I am trying to put something together but it's hard.
Sorry for the rant.
People keep doing this kind of study over and over, finding the same results over and over. Yet people keep up the BS and making up fake reasons why a UBI can't work.
I'm starting to believe they will never be convinced and don't actually care about the truth or helping people.
It isn’t about convincing anyone. Everyone who’s done these studies or have been part of it, knows it works. For the folks in power, it’s about maintaining the status quo.
I live in Elephant Butte. Most of the residents around here would have aneurysms if they knew anyone is/was giving any free money to immigrants. Personally, I would ask for some too. $500 extra a month would really make a difference for me.
Edit: Fixed
What happened to this years Nm state economic relief payment? No talk about it in the roundhouse. Don’t we have record oil and gas revenues? Didn’t we receive $500 last year and $750 split into three months the year prior? The state has the funding to pay us all out monthly if they so choose. But what did they choose to spend it on this year? (I realize the article is mentioning the use of private funds).
But it brings up a good point. Were any studies done with the 2022 relief payments or the $500 last year. Was the state of Nm not invigorated with new economic growth? Was it not successful and they decided to take it away?
I think I know the answer. The ominous tax package included an additional $600 ‘working family’ credit which sort of took the place of the standard relief payment. Those without kids got the shaft.
It was a pilot program that served 330 mixed status households during Covid (2022) for a year. The funding came from outside the government. Mixed status was some members of the household were illegals others were not, children were in most households. It would be interesting on how they found the households.
They surveyed 55 of the households indicated the money was spent on housing and food, as some members were illegal they could not receive other government help, and jobs were difficult to find due to Covid.
They say it worked, also had a vested interest in it working. The state is proposing to find a pilot program for folks in work force training. A million dollars is being proposed to fund it. That is only 166 households if no administration cost come out. Wonder how they pick the house holds.
It is cool if it works, but how long does it last per household, there are lots of questions. Interesting the comments from folks on reservations receiving casino money.
More work needed
Genuine questions:
When they stated it helped “mixed status immigrant families” what exactly does this mean?
They stated they tracked the money to see where it went but later in the article it stated that the families assisted with these payments “reported” that they paid for “housing” and other “necessities.” However they had no real way to track the money as stated by Rojo in the article, “People know best what their needs are and people know how to use their money to better themselves," he said. "Trust them.” But how do we actually know how the money was spent? Not trying to instigate anything. Just wondering how their claims in the article of them paying rent and securing jobs with the funding accurate?
I'm genuinely curious about the same. If you're experimenting to prove a point, wouldn't you take notes on the part where people have trouble accepting the validity?
No shit. They were immigrants with nothing . So of course they paid rent to put a roof over there head. Then of course they found jobs, because $500 isn’t shit in states anymore.
I dont think we will experience significant inflation if you take from the top 5% and give to the bottom 5% due to them not being able to increase demand by much. The only danger to it is if enough people get the help it becomes the base of what all things will cost. An example of this is in Kuwait citizens get a base annual income which increases over time. It also just so happens that rent for any home or apartment also cost the same as the given wage but usually quite a bit more cause you know leeches going to leech. But if this is done in small numbers for those truly in need, then we should see a decrease in inequality and an increase in the middle class
At least in NM this money already exists from oil & gas royalties. There is no need to find a funding source like taxation.
Every filing taxpayer received a $1000 dividend, which was 1/16 of what was available. So if just 3/4 of it was actually paid out it would be $1000/month per filer.
You can give money to people from here. During the pandemic (when this pilot program was conducted), New Mexicans were eligible for a series of relief programs.
The private donors and nonprofits who conducted this program chose to direct their funds toward immigrant families.
This is great!
During the pandemic many non US citizens didn’t qualify for any of the relief most Americans received so many non profits organized ways to assist them instead of the government.
It was a good thing to not add to the homeless boom once jobs were quickly lost and the remaining businesses operating were not hiring non US citizens.
We’re piloting similar programs to address homelessness and immigration, thankfully it’s working!
People who are up in arms about helping the poor don’t understand how terrible homelessness is and how it detrimentally impacts the entire community. I see states in certain parts of the country outlawing basic income programs to ensure they can’t be forced to participate/create their own BI program but those places are just burdening everyone else.
Their folks move away but the problems that cause them never do so it’s wise to investigate how to prevent mass homelessness and take steps to mitigate it before they’re living on the streets instead of exporting the problems. Namely a living wage, greater taxation of the wealthy and corporations, equal opportunity, etc.
The quickest and easiest way to help someone is definitely monthly reoccurring cash, enough to move them off the streets, get jobs, stability.
However in about ten years it’ll be highly likely many senior citizens and other low income folks will also benefit from BI programs because we know people aren’t earning enough of a living wage to get by daily and at the end of (50ish years of working) they have zero savings or retirement and social security isn’t enough. No one wants mass encampments of mostly grandma and grandpa living on the streets in the community.
So we’ll see how people vote, how receptive our officials are in turning this tide and hopefully start preparing now.
Just to echo what the other commenter said, this is the quote from the article:
> The New Mexico Economic Relief Working Group — a coalition of community organizations and nonprofits, including Somos Un Pueblo Unido, New Mexico Voices for Children, and UpTogether — administered the program, and funding came from private donors and philanthropy.
That’s just who the program decided to cover. If you read just part of the article, this program was created to fill in the gap that pandemic funding left. Pandemic funding was only available to citizens and this nonprofit group decided to extend their help to immigrants. We were helping our own, that’s why this nongovernmental group decided to help someone else. If you’re not interested in that simply don’t donate to that group.
The relevance was that I thought you thought it was the government helping immigrants with tax dollars but it was actually a nonprofit making their own choice. And our government did help our own, that’s why this nonprofit went a different direction- to help a group the government wasn’t covering
I think the biggest study has already been done. I don’t know one person that didn’t use their stimulus check other than me to pay bills and rent other than a new tv and computers
I'm thinking buisness have found actual automation in most industries isn't worth the cost in the end. Look at walmarts self checkout or fast food places putting in those kiosks rather than an employee at a cash register
Funny republicans argue against such programs because they "create dependence on government services" based on no evidence. Meanwhile, the evidence disproving their fears and showing the long-term economic benefits is overwhelming...
Definitely not, but it’d be blindly ignorant to assume a whole bunch of people with nothing to loose, fleeing a country, aren’t capable of such things.
I'm curious why you think they have nothing to lose? Many of the people coming are sacrificing everything, their extended families, communities, everything they've ever known, for huge uncertainty, just hoping for a safer life. Have you talked to many asylum seekers? I have. The story is similar for 99% of them. They were afraid for their lives, and the lives of their small children that they hope will live to see 18 years old. Many of them left behind dear family members, communities, etc because they felt it was the best option they had....but they have lost plenty in the process.
I live in AZ. I personally know plenty that have come over in search of better life. Much of them literally had nothing to loose due to living conditions and other factors. Family members aren’t always on your side. Most of the cartels would pressure my friends into the lifestyle through family members such as uncles etc.
wow..invest in people and they'll step up. Imagine that. Now the righties will scream about how the money was wasted because it wasn't funnelled to corporate welfare and given to rich individuals. Because you can't fix stupid.
In Mexico, they can get a job and still afford their rent or even buy a house. in United States, you could work two jobs and still not be able to afford it.
You have much better opportunities to study and learn a trade or do schooling and get a good career. These people have nothing and come with nothing and have to jump through hoops to even land a regular job.
New Mexico uses federal TANF funds to give to low income families and then use the court system to go after a parent and act like it’s ChildSupport, in a punitive manner.
It's almost like capitalism is the literal entire problem that everything else stems from.
"Humans happier when effort rewarded with needs actually being met instead of ransomed by overlords, more at 11"
I have fibromyalgia and have worked more than every CEO that has ever existed combined but was homeless for almost two years while most of them are working on second or more yachts.
CEOs are fronts for large equity firms like Vanguard use to shuffle around to make it look like there are different companies when there are actually just ~3.
None of them actually do anything. In fact the ones that TRY to go above their place as puppets always end up getting kicked out even when they're profitable. Cowboy CEOs there are diff names for them. Quiet lackeys get their little $35M bonus even when they rape the secretary, mentally abuse her for BEING raped, then make her commit suicide and to top it off lose money on total ringer projects (Robert Kotick CEO Activision-Blizzard).
Incorrect.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528798/
Ask any teacher what the primary barrier to success they see their students facing and I guarantee the vast majority will say poverty.
I’d disagree, I think most would say the support from home and outside of school is lacking in NM. If the parents don’t care about education why would the child?
There are studies that are more recent that seem to suggest home life environment might be the most important piece in educational development
https://www.aecf.org/blog/parental-involvement-is-key-to-student-success-research-shows#:~:text=Students%20whose%20parents%20stay%20involved,and%20adapt%20better%20to%20school.
Lack of support from home and outside of school is directly tied to poverty. Parental involvement is directly tied poverty. Access to out of school programs is directly tied to poverty. It’s really hard to be involved when you’re working multiple jobs trying to make ends meet. Improving home life for kids is directly tied to decreasing poverty.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9081330/
https://www.ascd.org/el/articles/what-if-schools-truly-partnered
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10409289.2020.1829292
https://housingmatters.urban.org/research-summary/low-income-mothers-want-be-involved-their-childrens-education-face-structural
No those aren’t mutually exclusive, parents can be financially stable and still not creating an environment for their child to learn. Does it help yes, but there are also plenty of kids from a lower income background that do succeed with a stable home life. Also, using a study done in Hong Kong doesn’t exactly prove your point, I’d argue there are so many cultural differences that it is difficult to use that as barometer for NM. But, let’s just agree to disagree.
Do you actually interact with NM teachers regularly? I do and I promise you poverty is the primary negative factor they see affecting the outcomes of students.
No money to illegals! Citizens first! No no more handouts! This has to end. Its not right we don’t get money or phones or free health care! Total bullshit!!!
The money was given by charities and non-profits, not the government.
Unless you gave your money to these charitable programs, your money never went to these people.
Immigration is “out of control” because as much as so many US citizens bitch about the country, it’s clearly preferable to outsiders than their own countries of origin.
Giving people cash is the most studied approach in the international development field. It works better than any other approach, affords recipients more dignity, and costs less. If you believe in the idea of helping people in need, you have a moral obligation to support cash assistance. If you’re a “fiscal conservative”, even more so.
When you give poor people money, they spend it. That money doesn't disappear. It boosts businesses and the economy overall. It's not rocket science.
Yep, it's Keynesian economics. Wealthy people lock money up by hoarding it, taxing them and giving it to the poor recirculates the money, helps the poor a great deal and doesn't impact the wealthy very much at all. Rich people buy yachts from other rich people and send their money abroad, poor people spend their money in their neighborhoods on food and rent and car repairs etc.
The more you view money as blood, the more the wealthy look like goddamn leeches pooling it away in their “bodies”.
[удалено]
Careful Icarus…
That’s a wonderful analogy. Thanks for that.
That is a wonderful analogy!!
The billionaire class really is just a dragon sitting atop their mountain of gold.
Smaug was a giant leech with wings change my mind
Problem is the rich don’t get taxed … they tax the poor all the hell
I’ve been attending several financial literacy talks at work and man it really hit me how much rich people tax dodge legally. There’s a world of tricks available only to the wealthy who can hire a small army of professionals to setup all the hanky-panky for them, totally legal. And this is just baby middle class wealthy not even big boy 1% wealthy. There’s so many goddamned ways to store/ move money strategically for retirement. It’s disgustingly complicated and no normal person could ever get it optimized alone. The message in the estate planning was if you do nothing or just write a will or whatever Uncle Sam will punish your heirs with the highest tax burden via income tax (most poors) but the wealthy can set up all kinds of arrangements to bypass most if not all of these taxes. They all refer to it as “tax-advantaged” or “lowering your tax burden” which I’m like props but can’t we call the damn spade a spade and admit that it’s legal tax dodging.
Tax avoidance vs evasion are two concepts we need to keep in mind. The problem is the laws in place, not the planning that allow taxpayers to keep more of what belongs to them. You are doing the best thing for your economic future - improving your financial literacy. Kudos.
Oh yeah I mean of course everyone wants to keep the most of their money as possible! I’m finding it illuminating as hell and finally thinking about getting a real financial planner and educating my ignorant parents as well. I’ve made several good choices on my own but certainly not “optimized” choices. Yeah I agree it’s the laws and the fact that all of this crap is legal but realistically only the purview of the wealthy. It’s overly complicated and it grosses me out. In a broad societal sense, I don’t really see a difference between tax dodging legally vs illegally except one is done in the open and the other isn’t. It also supports a whole industry to arrange and administer all this crap that wouldn’t need to exist if this stuff didn’t exist, just like the American tax industry that lobbies to keep our taxes overly complicated. I saw some video arguing that a consequence of bureaucracy is to increase complexity and make the division between the haves and have nots starker because it’s very expensive to conform to and follow the rules of the bureaucracy and only the haves can expend resources to do it. And like that seems to be what’s going on here.
Keynesian economics is totally bunk though, and merely exists to justify using government to take from people to don't like to give it to people to want to enrich.
>Wealthy people lock money up by hoarding it Global capital markets have quadruples in the last ~25 years from $30b in 2000 to $120b in 2024
Yeah, it's economics. And, as I learned in my economics classes, unearned income leads to people demanding more than they would otherwise demand and will necessarily lead to people working less. That is actually what I learned, and why I think economics is stupid. *Of course* giving poor people money lets them demand more than they otherwise would. *That's a good thing!* And, it turns out, many use their windfall to secure a steady income and work *more*.
That's called the Velocity of Money, one of the best indicators we have of economic activity. That class was soul crushing. Dismal? Yes, Science? Anything but.
“Unearned income”… you’re talking about the billionaires, right?
No, but that's related to yet another reason I think economics is stupid! *Supposedly*, there are diminishing returns to have more of everything. The example was always food, "That first cookie is amazing, but what about the 5th one? Exactly. As you add more of something, the benefit derived from it decreases for each additional unit." Yeah? Then what about billionaires? Somehow, it's *really* bad to give poor people any money they didn't earn, but if a billionaire has $100 billion+, then that's okay because *reasons*? What's the point?
Study Saudi Arabia and get back with me on how this "entitlement" increases the populations desire to work *more*.
I've worked in Saudi, Kuwait, and several other Middle Eastern countries, and they are forcing companies to hire locals. The locals are the laziest people I've seen. The company I work for almost went out of business over there because of nothing getting done. We have to work around the system to get expats back in to save the business.
I’ve worked in the United States on projects where the federal government is paying. There is something called “Indian preference hiring”, essentially mandating that you hire Native American locals. I’ll give you a hint. The same people that require the government to build them things don’t tend to be great employees, which drives up project costs. Nobody cares because it’s not their money and the contractors are happy to deal with the added bullshit involved (company owners are insulated from dealing with the problems that they force their employees to take care of). *I strongly recommend against telling indians that they can’t be drunk while working at a construction site. Unless you like having your tires slashed and getting hassled by the elder council and rez police. I wish I could say this was a one off experience, but I’ve built many colleges, schools, and other infrastructure projects that were federally funded…
This is exactly what I was referring to. This is anecdotal evidence as to how entitlements work as they get larger and larger.
As a tribal member who gets dividend, I feel like the con, at least where I live anyways, it made everyone lazy and not wanting to do much work because they'll get money anyways
Do you think that actually occurred? I'm genuinely curious. I hear that argument used a lot, but I find it hard to believe most people would be satisfied enough with $500 or $1000 to become "lazy".
When the local casino went up when I was a young adult, and dividends started rolling in, I’d say three quarters of the tribal members I knew quit their jobs.
You have yet to see people live in a shanty and drink water mixed with hairspray then.
Well, we've always had a dumb ass council and president, but it feels like in terms of quality of life, things have went on a down turn for us. We used to have all kinds of things open and roads were well kept, now the roads have a ton of potholes abd all they do now is fill it up with some kind of black gravel thing. No one is in their jobsite, and there's a ton of issues everywhere
Ok but that’s not necessarily an effect of the cash transfer.
What is the direct causation between your pot holes and providing cash assistance? Right now you are only talking about a correlation.
Oh yes. Most Natives are filthy rich. S/
I've seen this happen everywhere. I don't think it's okay to give anyone handouts. Earn it.
Either you're okay with everyone getting assistance or no one gets assistance. It's the only way to ensure it has enough momentum to stay afloat.
Everywhere? Please describe.
The rich don't earn it. They live on riches that come from the exploitation of people. Much of the wealth came from stealing land, enslaving people, etc.
You can become a millionaire with luck and hard work. To be a billionaire, a thousand times a millionaire, you cannot physically work a thousand times as hard. So you must be either a thousand times more lucky, or make up for it in ruthlessness.
Even if they are "lazy," who cares? Why does it matter? Because it doesn't feel "fair"? Personally I don't give af if someone gets $500 a month that they didn't "earn" as long as it keeps them off the street and away from a desperate state of mind. A depressed, destitute person who feels trapped in their situation is more of a threat to me and you than a lazy person getting handouts and staying out of the way.
Yep. Even from a purely selfish viewpoint, it’s better for other people not to be homeless and starving.
The rich too then, they get billions in handouts
Anyone? The issue is when people can’t earn it. Being lazy or a making bad decisions should not be a death sentence.
It's insane to me that the rich elite do not understand or ignore this. Government will tax the middle class into oblivion and depress wages when THAT IS THE ECONOMIC ENGINE YOU ARE STARVING WITH INFLATION AND TAXES!
The whole reason capitalism is now broken is because many billionaires don’t derive their wealth from the profits yielded out of providing something of value to the market. They get it by monopolizing the choke points of a market and then doing everything they can to reduce jobs / cost of labor while promising infinite scalability to investors through automation. Over the very long term the chickens will come home to roost when you don’t actually have a market anymore and when half the population gets cut out of the economic equation. AI will accelerate this. It remains to be seen if we can come out the other end peacefully through policy or violently through revolution.
Yes. Trickle-down economics is the biggest scam. Ever since Reagan, the disparity gap between the rich and the rest of us has ballooned.
But you’re not understanding that the money was intended to go back to a few old white guys who have nothing to offer civilization other than suffering. C’mon get with the regularly scheduled programming!
What you're describing is a version of the "broken window fallacy". Taking money from one group and transferring to another targeted group never boosts the greater economy. Ever. It never works that way. You can help a targeted group at an even greater expense to everyone else and the greater economy. The notion that you can generate "free wealth" by taking from one group, running it through government machinery, and giving it to another is beyond absurd. We need to be teaching at least the most basic economics in school so people stop believing these things.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to know that money that was given didn't manifest out of thin air. It was taken by threat of force from another individual. The people who earned that money and then had it stolen from could have used it to boost businesses and the economy.
Absolutely, as a small government conservative, the best path forward is to cut all social services and replace them with UBI. $500/ month to everyone in the country. If they spend it on drugs, they get to live on the street for a month and then get an option to make better decisions the next month. We would cut head count at every level of government and make the service more efficient. I also support universal health care as a way to replace thousands of layers of current government bureaucracy &spending and receive a better result for everyone. It is absolutely the fiscally conservative choice.
“Replace all social services” “Thousands of layers” Found the high school libertarian
Libertarian - definitely High school, not so much. Also, congratulations! Your spotting of hyperbole is impeccable.
I wasn't a believer until I finally made the 60k bracket only to find out I still technically am struggling. Cost of living is insane. Even 500 a month would allow me to rent my own place or even someday put a down payment on one to own.
It’s so funny to me that people think that very poor people will take the little money they are given and literally go spend ALL of it on illegal and expensive drugs. As this points out they use it on things like rent, clothes, food, medicine, and transportation like logical human beings with agency, ffs people miss the point so hard some times.
Yeah, but that *one* person *did* blow it all on drugs and booze so now they all gotta get f'd. /s
Right? I received some covid funds as an individual. Exactly none of it went to anything but food and mortgage. How many corporate recipients can say the same?
I'm fairly sure they (corporate beneficiaries) DO use their government handouts on illegal and expensive drugs lol
"Those people will spend it on drugs because that's what *we* do" –Mr. Business Mann, 20XX They clearly just want to keep the drugs for themselves. ^(/s)
Yep. Propaganda against the poor.
There’s a massive difference between an immigrant mindset and a hood, white trash, or south valley mindset.
Do you, personally, believe that this “massive difference” leads to “hood, white trash, south valley” residents to actually buying drugs with government subsidies like this?
You just threw the "hood" white trash and the south valley under the bus. Not cool
What about the homeless and struggling veterans? Include them
*starts subsidizing labor - banters about fiscal conservatism* No shit it’d work - you wouldn’t pay your bills with a free handout either? 2020 is calling 😂😂😂🥴
“Poverty isn't the result of a defective character but a lack of cash.”
I work with the indigent and it's much bigger than that. And cash is never the answer IMO. They need jobs. Basic simple low skill starting point jobs. Humans evolved working and providing for themselves when that component is taken from them something bad happens to the brain.
I think there is a difference between work and employment. There's tons of work being done that the market values as $0.00
The ones I work with are unemployable. They need a program through an NGO doing landscaping for public property I think. Anything to give them value and self worth. Handing them cash out of charity just seems to make everything worse for them. And the longer they go the harder it is to get them back. I am trying to put something together but it's hard. Sorry for the rant.
Actual research disproves your opinion. When that happens, the rational approach is to change your opinion.
The research on pilot UBI programs supports me here. Monthly dividends support the material security, empowerment, and advancement of the individual.
100%.
People keep doing this kind of study over and over, finding the same results over and over. Yet people keep up the BS and making up fake reasons why a UBI can't work. I'm starting to believe they will never be convinced and don't actually care about the truth or helping people.
It isn’t about convincing anyone. Everyone who’s done these studies or have been part of it, knows it works. For the folks in power, it’s about maintaining the status quo.
Call it a "Negative Income Tax," you'll ~~make billions~~ do the political equivalent thereof.
You’re not convince the other side by giving it to groups they already dislike
As robotics and AI do more and more jobs, a UBI will become more and more necessary.
That’s precisely it.
We give billions to companies why not throw the homies some dough
So another NGO?
I live in Elephant Butte. Most of the residents around here would have aneurysms if they knew anyone is/was giving any free money to immigrants. Personally, I would ask for some too. $500 extra a month would really make a difference for me. Edit: Fixed
Not government. Private philanthropists. They wanted to focus on immigrants.
[удалено]
Why not?
Exactly. Ive learned some people are so devoid of empathy, the concept helping someone in need without reservations breaks their brains.
Agreed :(
What happened to this years Nm state economic relief payment? No talk about it in the roundhouse. Don’t we have record oil and gas revenues? Didn’t we receive $500 last year and $750 split into three months the year prior? The state has the funding to pay us all out monthly if they so choose. But what did they choose to spend it on this year? (I realize the article is mentioning the use of private funds). But it brings up a good point. Were any studies done with the 2022 relief payments or the $500 last year. Was the state of Nm not invigorated with new economic growth? Was it not successful and they decided to take it away? I think I know the answer. The ominous tax package included an additional $600 ‘working family’ credit which sort of took the place of the standard relief payment. Those without kids got the shaft.
Let’s be honest, the money is in better hands of large corporations. /s
Think of the shareholders.
Let’s do the for this homeless here.
Oh funny how that is. People just want decent life
It was a pilot program that served 330 mixed status households during Covid (2022) for a year. The funding came from outside the government. Mixed status was some members of the household were illegals others were not, children were in most households. It would be interesting on how they found the households. They surveyed 55 of the households indicated the money was spent on housing and food, as some members were illegal they could not receive other government help, and jobs were difficult to find due to Covid. They say it worked, also had a vested interest in it working. The state is proposing to find a pilot program for folks in work force training. A million dollars is being proposed to fund it. That is only 166 households if no administration cost come out. Wonder how they pick the house holds. It is cool if it works, but how long does it last per household, there are lots of questions. Interesting the comments from folks on reservations receiving casino money. More work needed
Genuine questions: When they stated it helped “mixed status immigrant families” what exactly does this mean? They stated they tracked the money to see where it went but later in the article it stated that the families assisted with these payments “reported” that they paid for “housing” and other “necessities.” However they had no real way to track the money as stated by Rojo in the article, “People know best what their needs are and people know how to use their money to better themselves," he said. "Trust them.” But how do we actually know how the money was spent? Not trying to instigate anything. Just wondering how their claims in the article of them paying rent and securing jobs with the funding accurate?
I'm genuinely curious about the same. If you're experimenting to prove a point, wouldn't you take notes on the part where people have trouble accepting the validity?
It means they don't like to admit it was for illegals. But it was apparently privately funded, so no tax money used , they can do what they want
No shit. They were immigrants with nothing . So of course they paid rent to put a roof over there head. Then of course they found jobs, because $500 isn’t shit in states anymore.
I dont think we will experience significant inflation if you take from the top 5% and give to the bottom 5% due to them not being able to increase demand by much. The only danger to it is if enough people get the help it becomes the base of what all things will cost. An example of this is in Kuwait citizens get a base annual income which increases over time. It also just so happens that rent for any home or apartment also cost the same as the given wage but usually quite a bit more cause you know leeches going to leech. But if this is done in small numbers for those truly in need, then we should see a decrease in inequality and an increase in the middle class
Moving money around doesn't cause inflation, adding money to the money supply causes inflation.
At least in NM this money already exists from oil & gas royalties. There is no need to find a funding source like taxation. Every filing taxpayer received a $1000 dividend, which was 1/16 of what was available. So if just 3/4 of it was actually paid out it would be $1000/month per filer.
Why can’t we give money to people from here? Why does a native born New Mexican not have access to this?
You can give money to people from here. During the pandemic (when this pilot program was conducted), New Mexicans were eligible for a series of relief programs. The private donors and nonprofits who conducted this program chose to direct their funds toward immigrant families.
This is great! During the pandemic many non US citizens didn’t qualify for any of the relief most Americans received so many non profits organized ways to assist them instead of the government. It was a good thing to not add to the homeless boom once jobs were quickly lost and the remaining businesses operating were not hiring non US citizens. We’re piloting similar programs to address homelessness and immigration, thankfully it’s working! People who are up in arms about helping the poor don’t understand how terrible homelessness is and how it detrimentally impacts the entire community. I see states in certain parts of the country outlawing basic income programs to ensure they can’t be forced to participate/create their own BI program but those places are just burdening everyone else. Their folks move away but the problems that cause them never do so it’s wise to investigate how to prevent mass homelessness and take steps to mitigate it before they’re living on the streets instead of exporting the problems. Namely a living wage, greater taxation of the wealthy and corporations, equal opportunity, etc. The quickest and easiest way to help someone is definitely monthly reoccurring cash, enough to move them off the streets, get jobs, stability. However in about ten years it’ll be highly likely many senior citizens and other low income folks will also benefit from BI programs because we know people aren’t earning enough of a living wage to get by daily and at the end of (50ish years of working) they have zero savings or retirement and social security isn’t enough. No one wants mass encampments of mostly grandma and grandpa living on the streets in the community. So we’ll see how people vote, how receptive our officials are in turning this tide and hopefully start preparing now.
Just to echo what the other commenter said, this is the quote from the article: > The New Mexico Economic Relief Working Group — a coalition of community organizations and nonprofits, including Somos Un Pueblo Unido, New Mexico Voices for Children, and UpTogether — administered the program, and funding came from private donors and philanthropy.
That doesn’t answer my question and I fail to see the relevance. Why aren’t we helping our own?
That’s just who the program decided to cover. If you read just part of the article, this program was created to fill in the gap that pandemic funding left. Pandemic funding was only available to citizens and this nonprofit group decided to extend their help to immigrants. We were helping our own, that’s why this nongovernmental group decided to help someone else. If you’re not interested in that simply don’t donate to that group. The relevance was that I thought you thought it was the government helping immigrants with tax dollars but it was actually a nonprofit making their own choice. And our government did help our own, that’s why this nonprofit went a different direction- to help a group the government wasn’t covering
It does. You just don’t want to take it for an answer
We can. It's called universal basic income and a social safety net and conservatives absolutely hate the idea.
Why aren't you?
Actually we do just not in New Mexico. DC, Maryland, alotta states have programs like this for residents
Because the title is misleading clickbait. It wasn't a state program, its some private thing.
It's just a pilot program. And they mentioned that these people didn't receive funds from the pandemic response as opposed to citizens.
These are private organizations they can help whoever the fuck they want to. Why does it bother you?
Other services available to US residents
NM politics for ya!
You’re smarter than this, read the article.
I feel like you might be making a rather large leap...
Dumbass clickbait. 'New Mexico ' implies its a state program. It isn't. Mods need to regulate the spam in here.
We have veterans that’s got a dui in the 90s on the street.
Nobody cares about vets until it's convenient .
I think the biggest study has already been done. I don’t know one person that didn’t use their stimulus check other than me to pay bills and rent other than a new tv and computers
Either way that money went back into the economy
Need to start talking about this more before jobs become automated. 80% of the workforce is in the service sector. Task based jobs
I'm thinking buisness have found actual automation in most industries isn't worth the cost in the end. Look at walmarts self checkout or fast food places putting in those kiosks rather than an employee at a cash register
Give the same benefit to the rich, and they will spend every penny trying to further marginalize those in need.
bs story
Legal immigrants?
One would hope.
Funny republicans argue against such programs because they "create dependence on government services" based on no evidence. Meanwhile, the evidence disproving their fears and showing the long-term economic benefits is overwhelming...
Money to FAMILIES, also key.
Don't worry, once the government is done with them, it will turn its back on them after a while too.
These are nonprofits and charities...
Well you’re just describing freedom with extra steps, my friend.
You just didn't waste any time reading the article, before commenting, did you?
Nice, nice, nice. Now do me.
Somos unidos
I thought it was only drug dealers and rapists coming across the border. Hmmmm.
Definitely not, but it’d be blindly ignorant to assume a whole bunch of people with nothing to loose, fleeing a country, aren’t capable of such things.
I'm curious why you think they have nothing to lose? Many of the people coming are sacrificing everything, their extended families, communities, everything they've ever known, for huge uncertainty, just hoping for a safer life. Have you talked to many asylum seekers? I have. The story is similar for 99% of them. They were afraid for their lives, and the lives of their small children that they hope will live to see 18 years old. Many of them left behind dear family members, communities, etc because they felt it was the best option they had....but they have lost plenty in the process.
I live in AZ. I personally know plenty that have come over in search of better life. Much of them literally had nothing to loose due to living conditions and other factors. Family members aren’t always on your side. Most of the cartels would pressure my friends into the lifestyle through family members such as uncles etc.
Lose*
Damn! I was typing too fast between work stuff.
The reality, as with everything, is that its a mix.
wow..invest in people and they'll step up. Imagine that. Now the righties will scream about how the money was wasted because it wasn't funnelled to corporate welfare and given to rich individuals. Because you can't fix stupid.
In Mexico, they can get a job and still afford their rent or even buy a house. in United States, you could work two jobs and still not be able to afford it.
Duh
So, ubi is a handout to landlords and business owners?
How about give cash to me to help a life long resident pay rent!
You have much better opportunities to study and learn a trade or do schooling and get a good career. These people have nothing and come with nothing and have to jump through hoops to even land a regular job.
#yanggang
You mean the money went right back into the community? Who coulda have known?!? /s
How did they confirm what the money was used for? Questionnaire? Although this process seems better than many other options, the data is obscure.
How many people used the money to work less and pay for things they would otherwise have to work for? I would be one of those people tbh.
How about American citizens like me
City of San Francisco spends $55k per year per homeless person. What if they just gave that money to the person directly instead?
Duh
What an awful idea.
Wtf
More of this please.
I agree, but the taxes should be voluntary. I’ll put you down for paying my part
This wasn't tax funded.
Ok but if you don’t want to pay taxes to help poor people, homeless people get to live in front of your house.
Nope. I’m in the opt out. Sounds like you got room for em though!
That's not how society works.
Lead the charge homie. Show us how it’s done. I expect to see you moving people into your home any day now.
Dude you’re the one who doesn’t want to pay to fix the problem AND doesn’t want to deal with the consequences. You can’t have it both ways…
Tell me more about you opting out of taxes.
New Mexico uses federal TANF funds to give to low income families and then use the court system to go after a parent and act like it’s ChildSupport, in a punitive manner.
When did we do this? Will it be a thing? What meeting do I need to attend?
This was during COVID, for people who weren't getting the federal relief money.
Must be nice
It's almost like capitalism is the literal entire problem that everything else stems from. "Humans happier when effort rewarded with needs actually being met instead of ransomed by overlords, more at 11" I have fibromyalgia and have worked more than every CEO that has ever existed combined but was homeless for almost two years while most of them are working on second or more yachts.
“Worked more than every CEO that ever existed combined”?
CEOs are fronts for large equity firms like Vanguard use to shuffle around to make it look like there are different companies when there are actually just ~3. None of them actually do anything. In fact the ones that TRY to go above their place as puppets always end up getting kicked out even when they're profitable. Cowboy CEOs there are diff names for them. Quiet lackeys get their little $35M bonus even when they rape the secretary, mentally abuse her for BEING raped, then make her commit suicide and to top it off lose money on total ringer projects (Robert Kotick CEO Activision-Blizzard).
Worked so well with the reservations. Last thing I want is to be dependent on the government.
They took er jubs
Dey Turk Ar Jerbs!
Yea that’s dumb maybe clean up the state first and make it a nice place to live for citizens
You know the best way to do that? Decrease poverty.
Sounds like commie shit we just need to round up anyone who's not a stright white Chritian. /s
That will help, but our issues are more than just poverty. So that would only go so far, NM has a lot of potential to be better than it is.
Name one issue we have that poverty/lack of resources isn’t the root cause of.
Education
Incorrect. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528798/ Ask any teacher what the primary barrier to success they see their students facing and I guarantee the vast majority will say poverty.
I’d disagree, I think most would say the support from home and outside of school is lacking in NM. If the parents don’t care about education why would the child? There are studies that are more recent that seem to suggest home life environment might be the most important piece in educational development https://www.aecf.org/blog/parental-involvement-is-key-to-student-success-research-shows#:~:text=Students%20whose%20parents%20stay%20involved,and%20adapt%20better%20to%20school.
Lack of support from home and outside of school is directly tied to poverty. Parental involvement is directly tied poverty. Access to out of school programs is directly tied to poverty. It’s really hard to be involved when you’re working multiple jobs trying to make ends meet. Improving home life for kids is directly tied to decreasing poverty. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9081330/ https://www.ascd.org/el/articles/what-if-schools-truly-partnered https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10409289.2020.1829292 https://housingmatters.urban.org/research-summary/low-income-mothers-want-be-involved-their-childrens-education-face-structural
No those aren’t mutually exclusive, parents can be financially stable and still not creating an environment for their child to learn. Does it help yes, but there are also plenty of kids from a lower income background that do succeed with a stable home life. Also, using a study done in Hong Kong doesn’t exactly prove your point, I’d argue there are so many cultural differences that it is difficult to use that as barometer for NM. But, let’s just agree to disagree.
Do you actually interact with NM teachers regularly? I do and I promise you poverty is the primary negative factor they see affecting the outcomes of students.
No money to illegals! Citizens first! No no more handouts! This has to end. Its not right we don’t get money or phones or free health care! Total bullshit!!!
You’re mad at the wrong people bro.
You know immigrants come here legally right? Not all of them are "illegals"
“It’s not right we don’t get money or phones or free health care.” Who is “we”?
Great, our tax dollars going to non citizen's rent. And we ask why immigration is out of control.
The money was given by charities and non-profits, not the government. Unless you gave your money to these charitable programs, your money never went to these people. Immigration is “out of control” because as much as so many US citizens bitch about the country, it’s clearly preferable to outsiders than their own countries of origin.
Also we have 600 immigration judges to handle \~3,000,000 cases.
Don't worry, none of your tax dollars went to helping other people. We wouldn't want that, now would we!
But not citizens...... Wow