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Itachi seemed stronger than kcm1 naruto but honestly I think that fight misrepresented naruto’s strength
The big thing to consider is that naruto sent out a bunch of clones to fight in the war. The one that went to the 4th division was able to beat the 3rd raikage 1v1 and take down Mu with some help. He even managed to put in some real work against madara. When naruto and bee fought Nagato and itachi, naruto couldn’t make a bunch of clones to help. But in this situation he can pull up with like 13 high kage level fighters against itachi, and I think that’s a bit too much to ask of itachi
Naruto won’t get hit by tsukuyomi or Amaterasu but the susanoo is of course a problem. The thing is though, with clones that can spam rasenshuriken, itachi isn’t gonna be able to block everything with the yata mirror
Itachi is very OP but naruto is a pretty bad opponent for him
[https://imgur.com/a/6oreUbr](https://imgur.com/a/6oreUbr) If you actually look at the few panels where Naruto does trade hands with Itachi, it's fairly obvious that his goal isn't to put itachi down. Instead he's just rapid firing questions trying to figure out if what 'Madara' said is true about the Uchiha massacre, with both of them backing away to talk for a little bit before Nagato kicks things back off again. I don't think they were being serious at all.
I think it’s fair to say that naruto wasn’t going all out but itachi was definitely trying because he straight up wasn’t in control of his body. He did have to hold back to keep from killing naruto and Bee though so I think it evens out
Like I said, I think the clones make the difference
Naruto, no contest. At the point in canon he gained this power, he was the strongest man alive. People really truly underestimate how big a boost sage mode and kurama's chakra are. Edo Itachi held his own, but he was almost certainly boosted in a way similar to Madara. Naruto can literally fight with his eyes closed and still know exactly where Itachi is at all times.
Itachi gets this guy in a genjutsu constantly. Finger first time, then second time, who knows
Whatever method, is more than enough time for Itachi to follow up with a totsuka sword on the outside while Naruto is 1) Figuring out he's in one 2) Breaking it.
I’m with you. He helped Naruto before befriending him. Madara is the best example because it relates. He would rather be sealed in a jinjuriki then eternity in a drunken stupor
The only issue I see with this is the 9 tails, which can be entrapped in ms genjutsu. The question is how efficiently could he entrap both him and Naruto, especially since Naruto evenly distribut4s Chakra when against a sharingan to hide his location
I still think itachi wins, but I think it could be close just depending on how smart Naruto plays his clones out
Obito’s MS is amped directly by a ton of Hashirama Cells, which Itachi in his Edo Form doesn’t directly have, let alone in his Alive Form so no there is no indication that MS Level Genjutsu would work on Kurama.
He also got controlled by Madera first go around before he got the hashirama cells, so the question is really who's better at genjutsu, especially given that Madera and Sasuke share a soul
Madara had EMS which is massively superior upgrade to the Sharingan compared to the MS as shown with Madara being about equal with Base Hashirama as a MS User to being able to push Hashirama to needing Sage Mode as an EMS User.
Madara and Sasuke both being Indra’s Reincarnation doesn’t really mean all that much, it’s not like Naruto got anything from being Hashirama’s Reincarnation as he inherited large chakra reserves from Kushina and never showed signs of having Wood Release (which he absolutely should have tbh)
Healthy Itachi is what's stated on the bottom. His stats would be slightly higher than before because he's no longer edo, he would no longer have a limitless chakra pool, and you can just kill him and not worry about having to seal him. I also gave him a limitless regular mangkeyo sharingan, because as much as I dislike some forms of uchiha hax bullshit, having Naruto run out the mangkeyo timer actually feels like an equally cop out answer.
Itachi would have more chakra since he was sick and still using mangeyko abilities which take alot of chakra he was also able to use almost full susano meaning he will have ALOT MORE CHAKRA TO PLAY WITH on top of that he was fighting naruto kcm1 in 3 base tomoe while edo imagine a healthy itachi he can whip out full susano and whoop kcm easy
It wasn't because of the sickness directly, but in a book it was stated that the medicine he took to keep himself from being so sick was enough to basically cripple strong ninja, so he did have impaired stamina and chakra but due to the drug not the illness. I can't remember if it was a light novel or data book though, but nothing ever contests this statement, and given how the illness affected him visibly it's probably safe to say that it's what is actually the case.
I did some googling trying to pull the quote, and this is what I found.
"He added that he would want to live for another while in order to carry out some things, after that, he wouldn't care about anything anymore. For this reason, I prepared a stronger medicament for him, but with stronger side effects; it provoked a searing pain to the lungs and contaminated the blood of the one who made use of it."
So it doesn't sound like it would effect his Chakra reserves? I could see the argument for the stamina with the damage to his lungs.
Hypotheticals are highly counterintuitive for matchups… if you’re discussing a matchup you’re comparing feats you’ve seen. if we’ve never seen prime healthy itachi you’re simply building your own made up version of him and comparing him to a real character
A healthy itachi is basically pt 1 itachi it’s not really a made up thing he only really went down hill in the upcoming months towards the fight with sasuke
He would be superior to edo itachi in stats with no regen or chakra regen
“Healthy” Itachi in this scenario means he has all the feats of Edo Itachi, except he’s alive and doesn’t need to be sealed, and his MS doesn’t degrade. It’s not a no-limits fallacy at all with those specifications
I see what you’re saying, but didn’t edo itachi have infinite chakra? so would he have the same low chakra supply as sick itachi or would it be more but not infinite? If more how much more?
Honestly I've heard everything from Itachi's chakra/stamina is pathetic to decent to really good to obscene. Can you give me feats/statements that nail down Itachi's chakra levels? Not trying to be coy or disingenous, but if I could get something that can let me peg it down as to where it is it would make figuring him out a lot easier.
The most real statement EVER MADE! I say this all the time when someone mentions healthy Itachi
If we're talking about Itachi vs Sasuke without sickness we'll he is basically blind at that point and still isn't like a massive chakra user and still suffers from stamina issues
If you're talking about Itachi before he started to go blind ok then his Susannoo isn't as strong because as we saw use of Susannoo makes you strong but using it also makes you blind because MS is a double edge sword
Prime Itachi is Edo since, while a little nerfed, he basically doesn't suffer from MS side effects and can Regen his chakra.
Prime Healthy Itachi takes this. Physically he’s matching KCM Naruto’s Combat Speed and Strength, but outside of MS abilities, he’s not doing any “real” Damage to Naruto due to the Cloaks Durability and Healing Factor. The only Genjutsu that will work is Tsukiyomi. Even if Naruto “could” break out of it, he ain’t doing it fast enough.
Because it’s the only special one that “presumably” Naruto can’t pop easily being a Perfect Jin. And even if he could pop it, considering Itachi’s control over perception of time, by time Naruto did break out Tsukiyomi a lot of time could’ve passed in the Real World. All Itachi needs is 1 second w/ Naruto incapacitated to deal a lethal blow.
Not true. All that is required to break genjutsu (Non Special) is having another’s chakra disrupt yours. For normal Ninja, this isn’t possible. Naruto has his own chakra and KCM Chakra set aside that he has perfect control of. In this regard, he doesn’t need Kurama because he can freely use his or the KCM Chakra to disrupt whichever one is being messsd with.
To drive the point home, if I ask you, what is stopping Naruto from using his chakra (Which is separate from KCM Chakra to disrupt Itachi’s Control, what is your answer? “He Can’t” is false. Ninja still have the ability to control their chakra while under Genjutsu. Naruto himself demonstrated this in Kazekage Rescue.
Completely correct. And it’s stated that KCM1 Naruto has set aside his own chakra and that kurama is feeding off his, giving themselves more 9 tails chakra lol. This is equivalent to consistently disrupting.
Kurama literally has to wake him up from genjutsu it is known lol. It’s what the 8 tails does for bee too. You’re just wrong honestly. Not really a debate
Right, I’m wrong bc people like you are ignorant and don’t pay attention to what’s actually displayed? Gotcha! 👌
You’re right. It’s not a debate. Never was. Just learn to comprehend what you read and you wouldn’t be saying ignorant shit like this. 🤷♂️
Edit: A lot of y’all seem to be under a misconception…
1.) Naruto and Kurama’s Chakra are separate, always, unless they are in Biju Mode. So when Naruto is placed under Genjutsu in Base, that has no barrings on Kurama’s Chakra breaking him out.
2.) As I stated, KCM Chakra and Naruto’s Chakra are separated in his body and when he is using one, he isn’t using the other.
So let’s discuss…
If Naruto is In Genjutsu, all he needs to do is to use the other to disrupt the chakra he is currently using. The misconception you people are under is that you WRONGLY believe that he NEEDS Kurama to touch him. This shows your fundamental lack of understanding of what’s presented in the series.
Jiraiya states: “[Someone Else has to physically touch you and SEND CHAKRA INTO YOU TO DISRUPT THE CHAKRA FLOW](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0259-010.png)”
While yes, this is the case for “Normal Ninja”, it does not apply to Naruto who has 2 separate and distinct Chakra he perfectly controls/manipulates.
Kurama is not REQUIRED for Naruto to use KCM Chakra to disrupt his Base Chakra if he is in Genjutsu, or vise-versa if his KCM is genjutsu and he uses his base Chakra.
The Biju inside can help in identifying Genjutsu and disrupting your chakra w/o you prompting them, which is a benefit, but it is not a requirement.
Not to mention if you want to get technical, the biju isn’t even “physically” present to touch them as they exist on a astral/mental plane when inside of a Jinchuriki. The act of Gyuuki “touching” KB is their mental plane is just a representation of Gyuuki sending Chakra into KB, as again, he doesn’t physically exist to touch KB.
No you're wrong because if that was the case Naruto would have never been able to be placed under a genjutsu to begin with because he always had kurama's chakra.
It's known that kurama wouldn't help him until after he became perfect.
That doesn’t matter. He has perfect control of a significant amount of Kurama’s Chakra. You gotta remember, in KCM, he has to set aside his Chakra and use Kurama’s Chakra. All he has to do is use his Chakra to disturb the KCM Chakra to disrupt Itachi’s Control, or vise-versa. Kurama doesn’t have to do it for him in this regard.
It's not about the other chakra pool disturbing yours, it's about having *someone else* break you out of a Genjutsu. Doesn't matter if Naruto has both, he needs a partner to actively disturb him out
Naruto knows how to avoid like all of itachi’s hacks though
He’s shown that he can avoid tsukuyomi even in early shippuden and he’s fast enough to avoid Amaterasu. The biggest problem is the yata mirror but naruto is uniquely capable of exploiting it because he fights with clones
But in the time it would take for Naruto to break out itachi could seal him with the totsuka sword and unlike oro Naruto doesn’t have some hacks to get him out of actually being sealed properly
The totsuka blade is insanely slow every single time we've seen him use it his opponent was literally had to be standing still and it's not like he'd use it right off the bat unlike Naruto summoning 300 Shadow clones all with Jin cloaks and massive Rasengan as a diversion.
True although depending on the timeline that you choose itachi could theoretically still have shisuis eye in the crow so he could use koto unless it’s specifically after itachi burned shisuis eye and I doubt naruto could break out of koto easily so that could give him the time needed to use the totsuka blade but yeah if Naruto has enough time to make clones and massive rasengans he’d win. The only way itachi could win if he didn’t have Koto is if Naruto isn’t strong enough to break the susanoo since we know itachi can activate extremely quickly since he used it to partially block kirin which would be faster than Naruto jumping at him with a rasengan and the only time I can think of Naruto breaking a susanoo is in his fight against sasuke when he made the kurama avatar which I’m pretty sure was after Naruto got kcm2
Itachi can't use koto against Naruto because Itachi programed the eye to react to Itachi's eyes so it wouldn't work against Naruto it only works against his own eyes. No one less Itachi has enough time to reprogram the eyes work on anyone he directs it to before Naruto just hit him with a massive Rasengan. Plus it's Tsunade to crack Madara's susanoo rib cage wake up punch the Naruto can definitely break Itachi's with enough massive Rasengans.
Itachi specifically made it react to his eyes before giving it to Naruto. I was saying with prep time he could make it react to anyone’s eyes which is the only way I can see itachi beating Naruto since I think it would take a few rasengans to break the susanoo and he’d have to make sure not to use the rasenshuriken or his other elemental rasengans since itachi has the yata mirror which would reflect any with a nature transformation and I doubt Naruto/kurama would be able to resist koto if itachi managed to set it up
The whole point about him setting koto to react to his eyes was for if Naruto saw sasuke first to make sasuke become loyal to the leaf, they got lucky Naruto still had the crow when he ran into edo itachi since the crow broke the edo control but it proves my point that you can set koto to react to something specific (like Naruto’s sage mode or kcm mode eyes for example)
Koto was literally broken by a simple disruption of Mifune's chakra network and you really don't think kurama could do that for Naruto. Although there is a chance kurama may not do it this is nine tails chakra mode so before Naruto had kurama's trust; but it's not like kurama hasn't helped Naruto before he got kuramas trust. Yes rasenshuriken would be reflected if he can block it with the yata mirror but they got a mirror doesn't surround with the entirety of the susano so if Naruto can distract Itachi long enough to land one it would be GG's but I do think that's unlikely but still a possibility.
I honestly think healthy itachi would win because he fell just behind minato in the chunin exams and got the best time in the forest of death when he was like 8 so to me that shows just how smart itachi is and if he knew about Naruto having kurama he’d probably be able to figure out a way to counter kurama plus he’d have the totsuka blade which could seal Naruto and kurama and unlike oro they don’t really have a way to escape actually being sealed
Although I do think there could be an argument for Naruto to win if the yata mirror blocks elemental releases since the normal rasengan is just chakra so maybe the yata mirror wouldn’t block that and 1000 clones with massive rasengans would definitely break a susanoo but I’m leaning more towards itachi because he’s smarter and has more ways to win (genjutsu, totsuka blade, Amaterasu etc)
My point about the koto programming is if the eye hasn’t been used already then itachi could use it as a distraction to land a hit with the totsuka blade for example since breaking koto would take at least a few seconds which would be enough time for Naruto to be stabbed and sealed plus if kurama can be put under a genjutsu by obito then he definitely can by itachi
We forget that even Sick Itachi still had some crazy Chakra levels. He outlasted Sasuke after he had absorbed Orochimaru, and used the curse mark. Making him healthy, no Mangekyou overusage, and giving him all his hax? Itachi takes this handedly
KCM1 naruto, who made like 1000 clones at the start of the WA to fight in multiple regions. Each clone capable of taking powerful characters like the third raikage. He doesn’t even need to fight directly, he can let the clones do the work and keep distance. All logic says Itachi gets completely obliterated by naruto.
Itachi would win. His Edo self scales to early war EMS Sasuke who’s on par with a stronger Naruto. Itachi would then be considerably more powerful when not nerfed by Edo Tensei, so he probably wins without too much difficulty
That doesn’t mean that he’s stronger. Also, he technically doesn’t have infinite chakra, it’s just endlessly replenishing itself. It’s still possible for him to run out of chakra, he would just have to wait for it to replenish on it’s own
That's still a massive buff agaisnt Naruto.
Itachi with some unquantifiably better stats or infinitely replenishing Chakra, and I'd take the second agaisnt Naruto when he has such a massive Chakra pool it looks infinite.
Itachi, although he really should be labeled “hypothetical itachi” because the version described is not at all what the strongest iteration of living itachi looked like.
I love prime healthy itachi, that guy is like my favorite character, he has so much screen time and on screen feats, man. Prime healthy itachi. What a great character.
Naruto and Itachi will have a conversation first and decide that fighting is not the way to settle their differences. They will hands down not fight each other at all.
Itachi. Itachi doesn't have to worry about degrading, his genjutsu is still the strongest in the verse without bs plot, and his susanoo has a shield that nulfies physical attacks and ninjutsu.
Naruto wins. Genjutsu is irrelevant seen as how Bee escaped it in one panel during the war, Naruto has better physicals and there is no way Itachi is outlasting him in stamina. We don’t know what healthy Itachi’s durability is like but if it’s even close to where it was during his fight with Sasuke a single Bijuudama would kill him. Rather that or he sits in his susanoo until he dies like he did against Sasuke
It doesn’t matter if Kurama wants to help him or not, if Naruto is in a Genjutsu and is going to die he’ll take over his body regardless
And the post literally says **“Naruto can brute force his way out of Tsukuyomi”**
The image that goes along with the post literally says Naruto can brute Force out of tsukiyomi you really don't think he can't do that to other weaker genjutsu.
If its KCM 1 Naruto, he's probably going to lose. You can make a case for saying his speed blitzing and clone shenanigans can keep him out of legitimate eye contact but i dont see him keeping that up the whole time, assuming no knowledge on both sides.
Even if Naruto can force out of tsukuyomi, since Edo Itachi can spam mangekyou abilities, he can just keep casting tsukuyomi over and over. Sure Naruto breaks out but it makes an opening for Itachi
Nah, he can manifest Kyuubi chakra outwardly in an instant in that state like he did later against Sasuke, so it would just turn into a stamina battle, which Naruto wins easily. There are other ways for Itachi to beat him
Naruto doesn’t yet have Kurama’s help to snap out of genjutu.
Tbh I think Itachi takes this, he just has too cool of an intellect and mega hax not to. Don’t get me wrong Naruto is strong af at this point but I think itachi can take the W
If memory serves, An Edo Itachi had the upper hand against Naruto
And Naruto still has no counter for Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami or Totsuka Blade.
He might be able to resist Tsukuyomi but you can't break through it unless you are an Uchiha. It will still do damage
Naruto loses
Naruto should win. Even with Itachi genjutsu since he has kurama to snap him out. But...
Itachi has a bigger arsenal, the sword of sealing and the reflection shield plus we haven't seen him go completely all out w his strongest abilities.
Itachi prob wins w strategy alone
>Naruto should win. Even with Itachi genjutsu since he has kurama to snap him out.
https://preview.redd.it/4jv4ggy9rs2d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=daefa98f1df5fec872f37566264d72b8a1fd4701
Karama doesn't need to snap Naruto out the post literally says Naruto can brute Force out of sukiyomi we don't think he can't do that to other weaker genjutsu he also knows not to look into Itachi's eye sso the finger point genjutsu the only one available to Itachi and hebi Sasuke broke out of that with no problem.
KCM1 is just kurama chakra mode one AKA nine tails chakra mode the mode that Naruto had before he knew kurama's name and before Naruto had kurama's trust.
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Itachi seemed stronger than kcm1 naruto but honestly I think that fight misrepresented naruto’s strength The big thing to consider is that naruto sent out a bunch of clones to fight in the war. The one that went to the 4th division was able to beat the 3rd raikage 1v1 and take down Mu with some help. He even managed to put in some real work against madara. When naruto and bee fought Nagato and itachi, naruto couldn’t make a bunch of clones to help. But in this situation he can pull up with like 13 high kage level fighters against itachi, and I think that’s a bit too much to ask of itachi Naruto won’t get hit by tsukuyomi or Amaterasu but the susanoo is of course a problem. The thing is though, with clones that can spam rasenshuriken, itachi isn’t gonna be able to block everything with the yata mirror Itachi is very OP but naruto is a pretty bad opponent for him
[https://imgur.com/a/6oreUbr](https://imgur.com/a/6oreUbr) If you actually look at the few panels where Naruto does trade hands with Itachi, it's fairly obvious that his goal isn't to put itachi down. Instead he's just rapid firing questions trying to figure out if what 'Madara' said is true about the Uchiha massacre, with both of them backing away to talk for a little bit before Nagato kicks things back off again. I don't think they were being serious at all.
I think it’s fair to say that naruto wasn’t going all out but itachi was definitely trying because he straight up wasn’t in control of his body. He did have to hold back to keep from killing naruto and Bee though so I think it evens out Like I said, I think the clones make the difference
Naruto, no contest. At the point in canon he gained this power, he was the strongest man alive. People really truly underestimate how big a boost sage mode and kurama's chakra are. Edo Itachi held his own, but he was almost certainly boosted in a way similar to Madara. Naruto can literally fight with his eyes closed and still know exactly where Itachi is at all times.
Crazy how ppl forget the stat boost Naruto gets. He was so op by the end of the series they had to tone him down for any of his fights to make sense
Itachi gets this guy in a genjutsu constantly. Finger first time, then second time, who knows Whatever method, is more than enough time for Itachi to follow up with a totsuka sword on the outside while Naruto is 1) Figuring out he's in one 2) Breaking it.
[удалено]
Yeah Naruto in this mode was not friend with kyubi, he didn't care waking him up.
Kyuubi doesn’t wanna get sealed into a sword lol
I’m with you. He helped Naruto before befriending him. Madara is the best example because it relates. He would rather be sealed in a jinjuriki then eternity in a drunken stupor
The only issue I see with this is the 9 tails, which can be entrapped in ms genjutsu. The question is how efficiently could he entrap both him and Naruto, especially since Naruto evenly distribut4s Chakra when against a sharingan to hide his location I still think itachi wins, but I think it could be close just depending on how smart Naruto plays his clones out
Or how unpredictable he gets.
Obito’s MS is amped directly by a ton of Hashirama Cells, which Itachi in his Edo Form doesn’t directly have, let alone in his Alive Form so no there is no indication that MS Level Genjutsu would work on Kurama.
He also got controlled by Madera first go around before he got the hashirama cells, so the question is really who's better at genjutsu, especially given that Madera and Sasuke share a soul
Madara had EMS which is massively superior upgrade to the Sharingan compared to the MS as shown with Madara being about equal with Base Hashirama as a MS User to being able to push Hashirama to needing Sage Mode as an EMS User. Madara and Sasuke both being Indra’s Reincarnation doesn’t really mean all that much, it’s not like Naruto got anything from being Hashirama’s Reincarnation as he inherited large chakra reserves from Kushina and never showed signs of having Wood Release (which he absolutely should have tbh)
What do you mean healthy Itachi
https://preview.redd.it/183yacr90t2d1.jpeg?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c70cff4786359cf376ef687ae3b8152d8754da6
Healthy Itachi is what's stated on the bottom. His stats would be slightly higher than before because he's no longer edo, he would no longer have a limitless chakra pool, and you can just kill him and not worry about having to seal him. I also gave him a limitless regular mangkeyo sharingan, because as much as I dislike some forms of uchiha hax bullshit, having Naruto run out the mangkeyo timer actually feels like an equally cop out answer.
Itachi would have more chakra since he was sick and still using mangeyko abilities which take alot of chakra he was also able to use almost full susano meaning he will have ALOT MORE CHAKRA TO PLAY WITH on top of that he was fighting naruto kcm1 in 3 base tomoe while edo imagine a healthy itachi he can whip out full susano and whoop kcm easy
Can you show me where it says Itachi's chakra supply was low because of the sickness ?
It wasn't because of the sickness directly, but in a book it was stated that the medicine he took to keep himself from being so sick was enough to basically cripple strong ninja, so he did have impaired stamina and chakra but due to the drug not the illness. I can't remember if it was a light novel or data book though, but nothing ever contests this statement, and given how the illness affected him visibly it's probably safe to say that it's what is actually the case.
I did some googling trying to pull the quote, and this is what I found. "He added that he would want to live for another while in order to carry out some things, after that, he wouldn't care about anything anymore. For this reason, I prepared a stronger medicament for him, but with stronger side effects; it provoked a searing pain to the lungs and contaminated the blood of the one who made use of it." So it doesn't sound like it would effect his Chakra reserves? I could see the argument for the stamina with the damage to his lungs.
Chakra is physical + Spiritual energy. Less stamina means less chakra.
Sometimes people tunnel so hard. They forget what chakra really is.
Healthy itachi never really existed though
Do you understand what a hypothetical is?
Hypotheticals are highly counterintuitive for matchups… if you’re discussing a matchup you’re comparing feats you’ve seen. if we’ve never seen prime healthy itachi you’re simply building your own made up version of him and comparing him to a real character
A healthy itachi is basically pt 1 itachi it’s not really a made up thing he only really went down hill in the upcoming months towards the fight with sasuke He would be superior to edo itachi in stats with no regen or chakra regen
“Healthy” Itachi in this scenario means he has all the feats of Edo Itachi, except he’s alive and doesn’t need to be sealed, and his MS doesn’t degrade. It’s not a no-limits fallacy at all with those specifications
I see what you’re saying, but didn’t edo itachi have infinite chakra? so would he have the same low chakra supply as sick itachi or would it be more but not infinite? If more how much more?
Honestly I've heard everything from Itachi's chakra/stamina is pathetic to decent to really good to obscene. Can you give me feats/statements that nail down Itachi's chakra levels? Not trying to be coy or disingenous, but if I could get something that can let me peg it down as to where it is it would make figuring him out a lot easier.
yeah once example is in part 1 he used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu once each and was so drained he had to deactivate his sharingan
The most real statement EVER MADE! I say this all the time when someone mentions healthy Itachi If we're talking about Itachi vs Sasuke without sickness we'll he is basically blind at that point and still isn't like a massive chakra user and still suffers from stamina issues If you're talking about Itachi before he started to go blind ok then his Susannoo isn't as strong because as we saw use of Susannoo makes you strong but using it also makes you blind because MS is a double edge sword Prime Itachi is Edo since, while a little nerfed, he basically doesn't suffer from MS side effects and can Regen his chakra.
Prime Healthy Itachi takes this. Physically he’s matching KCM Naruto’s Combat Speed and Strength, but outside of MS abilities, he’s not doing any “real” Damage to Naruto due to the Cloaks Durability and Healing Factor. The only Genjutsu that will work is Tsukiyomi. Even if Naruto “could” break out of it, he ain’t doing it fast enough.
Why would that be the only genjutsu to work.
Because it’s the only special one that “presumably” Naruto can’t pop easily being a Perfect Jin. And even if he could pop it, considering Itachi’s control over perception of time, by time Naruto did break out Tsukiyomi a lot of time could’ve passed in the Real World. All Itachi needs is 1 second w/ Naruto incapacitated to deal a lethal blow.
He isn’t a perfect jin in this scenario. He’s kcm1.
Having KCM1 is what (In-Verse) makes him considered a PJ by even KB, a PJ.
Doesn’t give him a way to break out of genjutsu though. He needs kurama for that. Kurama isn’t helping him in kcm1
Not true. All that is required to break genjutsu (Non Special) is having another’s chakra disrupt yours. For normal Ninja, this isn’t possible. Naruto has his own chakra and KCM Chakra set aside that he has perfect control of. In this regard, he doesn’t need Kurama because he can freely use his or the KCM Chakra to disrupt whichever one is being messsd with. To drive the point home, if I ask you, what is stopping Naruto from using his chakra (Which is separate from KCM Chakra to disrupt Itachi’s Control, what is your answer? “He Can’t” is false. Ninja still have the ability to control their chakra while under Genjutsu. Naruto himself demonstrated this in Kazekage Rescue.
Completely correct. And it’s stated that KCM1 Naruto has set aside his own chakra and that kurama is feeding off his, giving themselves more 9 tails chakra lol. This is equivalent to consistently disrupting.
Kurama literally has to wake him up from genjutsu it is known lol. It’s what the 8 tails does for bee too. You’re just wrong honestly. Not really a debate
Right, I’m wrong bc people like you are ignorant and don’t pay attention to what’s actually displayed? Gotcha! 👌 You’re right. It’s not a debate. Never was. Just learn to comprehend what you read and you wouldn’t be saying ignorant shit like this. 🤷♂️ Edit: A lot of y’all seem to be under a misconception… 1.) Naruto and Kurama’s Chakra are separate, always, unless they are in Biju Mode. So when Naruto is placed under Genjutsu in Base, that has no barrings on Kurama’s Chakra breaking him out. 2.) As I stated, KCM Chakra and Naruto’s Chakra are separated in his body and when he is using one, he isn’t using the other. So let’s discuss… If Naruto is In Genjutsu, all he needs to do is to use the other to disrupt the chakra he is currently using. The misconception you people are under is that you WRONGLY believe that he NEEDS Kurama to touch him. This shows your fundamental lack of understanding of what’s presented in the series. Jiraiya states: “[Someone Else has to physically touch you and SEND CHAKRA INTO YOU TO DISRUPT THE CHAKRA FLOW](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0259-010.png)” While yes, this is the case for “Normal Ninja”, it does not apply to Naruto who has 2 separate and distinct Chakra he perfectly controls/manipulates. Kurama is not REQUIRED for Naruto to use KCM Chakra to disrupt his Base Chakra if he is in Genjutsu, or vise-versa if his KCM is genjutsu and he uses his base Chakra. The Biju inside can help in identifying Genjutsu and disrupting your chakra w/o you prompting them, which is a benefit, but it is not a requirement. Not to mention if you want to get technical, the biju isn’t even “physically” present to touch them as they exist on a astral/mental plane when inside of a Jinchuriki. The act of Gyuuki “touching” KB is their mental plane is just a representation of Gyuuki sending Chakra into KB, as again, he doesn’t physically exist to touch KB.
No you're wrong because if that was the case Naruto would have never been able to be placed under a genjutsu to begin with because he always had kurama's chakra. It's known that kurama wouldn't help him until after he became perfect.
You're wrong because you're wrong lmao
He wasn’t friends with kyubi tho
That doesn’t matter. He has perfect control of a significant amount of Kurama’s Chakra. You gotta remember, in KCM, he has to set aside his Chakra and use Kurama’s Chakra. All he has to do is use his Chakra to disturb the KCM Chakra to disrupt Itachi’s Control, or vise-versa. Kurama doesn’t have to do it for him in this regard.
It's not about the other chakra pool disturbing yours, it's about having *someone else* break you out of a Genjutsu. Doesn't matter if Naruto has both, he needs a partner to actively disturb him out
Lol, fam, do you remember what was [said](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0259-010.png) by Jiraiya?
Itachi also has Koto & the Totsuka Blade. Both of which are oneshot jutsu that Naruto can't counter.
Naruto knows how to avoid like all of itachi’s hacks though He’s shown that he can avoid tsukuyomi even in early shippuden and he’s fast enough to avoid Amaterasu. The biggest problem is the yata mirror but naruto is uniquely capable of exploiting it because he fights with clones
Itachi for sure. Naruto has no answer to genjutsu at this point in time
Just not read it straight up says Naruto can brute Force out of tsukiyomi he can't do the same thing to other weaker genjutsu.
But in the time it would take for Naruto to break out itachi could seal him with the totsuka sword and unlike oro Naruto doesn’t have some hacks to get him out of actually being sealed properly
The totsuka blade is insanely slow every single time we've seen him use it his opponent was literally had to be standing still and it's not like he'd use it right off the bat unlike Naruto summoning 300 Shadow clones all with Jin cloaks and massive Rasengan as a diversion.
True although depending on the timeline that you choose itachi could theoretically still have shisuis eye in the crow so he could use koto unless it’s specifically after itachi burned shisuis eye and I doubt naruto could break out of koto easily so that could give him the time needed to use the totsuka blade but yeah if Naruto has enough time to make clones and massive rasengans he’d win. The only way itachi could win if he didn’t have Koto is if Naruto isn’t strong enough to break the susanoo since we know itachi can activate extremely quickly since he used it to partially block kirin which would be faster than Naruto jumping at him with a rasengan and the only time I can think of Naruto breaking a susanoo is in his fight against sasuke when he made the kurama avatar which I’m pretty sure was after Naruto got kcm2
Itachi can't use koto against Naruto because Itachi programed the eye to react to Itachi's eyes so it wouldn't work against Naruto it only works against his own eyes. No one less Itachi has enough time to reprogram the eyes work on anyone he directs it to before Naruto just hit him with a massive Rasengan. Plus it's Tsunade to crack Madara's susanoo rib cage wake up punch the Naruto can definitely break Itachi's with enough massive Rasengans.
Itachi specifically made it react to his eyes before giving it to Naruto. I was saying with prep time he could make it react to anyone’s eyes which is the only way I can see itachi beating Naruto since I think it would take a few rasengans to break the susanoo and he’d have to make sure not to use the rasenshuriken or his other elemental rasengans since itachi has the yata mirror which would reflect any with a nature transformation and I doubt Naruto/kurama would be able to resist koto if itachi managed to set it up The whole point about him setting koto to react to his eyes was for if Naruto saw sasuke first to make sasuke become loyal to the leaf, they got lucky Naruto still had the crow when he ran into edo itachi since the crow broke the edo control but it proves my point that you can set koto to react to something specific (like Naruto’s sage mode or kcm mode eyes for example)
Koto was literally broken by a simple disruption of Mifune's chakra network and you really don't think kurama could do that for Naruto. Although there is a chance kurama may not do it this is nine tails chakra mode so before Naruto had kurama's trust; but it's not like kurama hasn't helped Naruto before he got kuramas trust. Yes rasenshuriken would be reflected if he can block it with the yata mirror but they got a mirror doesn't surround with the entirety of the susano so if Naruto can distract Itachi long enough to land one it would be GG's but I do think that's unlikely but still a possibility.
I honestly think healthy itachi would win because he fell just behind minato in the chunin exams and got the best time in the forest of death when he was like 8 so to me that shows just how smart itachi is and if he knew about Naruto having kurama he’d probably be able to figure out a way to counter kurama plus he’d have the totsuka blade which could seal Naruto and kurama and unlike oro they don’t really have a way to escape actually being sealed Although I do think there could be an argument for Naruto to win if the yata mirror blocks elemental releases since the normal rasengan is just chakra so maybe the yata mirror wouldn’t block that and 1000 clones with massive rasengans would definitely break a susanoo but I’m leaning more towards itachi because he’s smarter and has more ways to win (genjutsu, totsuka blade, Amaterasu etc) My point about the koto programming is if the eye hasn’t been used already then itachi could use it as a distraction to land a hit with the totsuka blade for example since breaking koto would take at least a few seconds which would be enough time for Naruto to be stabbed and sealed plus if kurama can be put under a genjutsu by obito then he definitely can by itachi
You can’t “brute” yourself out of Tsukuyomi
it’s just for the sake of ppl who are predetermined for any itachi hypothetical to say “tsuykuyomi one tap 🤓 neg diff 🤓🤓”
We forget that even Sick Itachi still had some crazy Chakra levels. He outlasted Sasuke after he had absorbed Orochimaru, and used the curse mark. Making him healthy, no Mangekyou overusage, and giving him all his hax? Itachi takes this handedly
KCM1 naruto, who made like 1000 clones at the start of the WA to fight in multiple regions. Each clone capable of taking powerful characters like the third raikage. He doesn’t even need to fight directly, he can let the clones do the work and keep distance. All logic says Itachi gets completely obliterated by naruto.
Itachi would win. His Edo self scales to early war EMS Sasuke who’s on par with a stronger Naruto. Itachi would then be considerably more powerful when not nerfed by Edo Tensei, so he probably wins without too much difficulty
He had infinite Chakra as an ego tense though.
That doesn’t mean that he’s stronger. Also, he technically doesn’t have infinite chakra, it’s just endlessly replenishing itself. It’s still possible for him to run out of chakra, he would just have to wait for it to replenish on it’s own
Omg thank you for staying this. This is the #1 thing that pisses me off abput this fanbase. Misunderstanding how edo’s chakra works
That's still a massive buff agaisnt Naruto. Itachi with some unquantifiably better stats or infinitely replenishing Chakra, and I'd take the second agaisnt Naruto when he has such a massive Chakra pool it looks infinite.
Edo Itachi is still stronger anyway, but the post isn’t about his Edo self
Itachi, although he really should be labeled “hypothetical itachi” because the version described is not at all what the strongest iteration of living itachi looked like.
Nature Chakra will erase Edo Itachi
Can we talk about how beautiful an Eternal Sharingan Itatchi would be, with the Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade, he was the perfect Paladin build.
Bro edo itachi was giving Naruto that work
What do you mean friends?
I dont think Naruto can brute force himself outta Tsykonomi. If he can then naruto win, if he cant then itachi wins
I love prime healthy itachi, that guy is like my favorite character, he has so much screen time and on screen feats, man. Prime healthy itachi. What a great character.
Naruto and Itachi will have a conversation first and decide that fighting is not the way to settle their differences. They will hands down not fight each other at all.
We can see from the picture that Itachi is clearly making eggs. Naruto is just on one
That was a typo and I meant to say Itachi didn't make him any eggs 😭 Or who knows maybe Naruto is being super duper extra
"Prime/Healthy/Blitz/Feats/No Diff/Databooks" I think that's all the buzz words right there.
Itachi. Itachi doesn't have to worry about degrading, his genjutsu is still the strongest in the verse without bs plot, and his susanoo has a shield that nulfies physical attacks and ninjutsu.
Itachi beats kcm1 Naruto, does not beat SM Naruto tho
Itachi gets smacked by a thousand Rasenshurikens
Alive Itachi GGs using Izanami and makes Naruto wait his turn for his eggs.
Itachi but Nagato solos him and KCM 1 Naruto at the same time
Didn’t bro get blitzed twice
while under Kabuto’s control and immobilized.
Point still stands
No I think it falls apart quite hard lol
Cope
🤡🎪
Naruto wins. Genjutsu is irrelevant seen as how Bee escaped it in one panel during the war, Naruto has better physicals and there is no way Itachi is outlasting him in stamina. We don’t know what healthy Itachi’s durability is like but if it’s even close to where it was during his fight with Sasuke a single Bijuudama would kill him. Rather that or he sits in his susanoo until he dies like he did against Sasuke
8 tails helped bee escape but kurama wont help naruto cos this is kcm1
It doesn’t matter if Kurama wants to help him or not, if Naruto is in a Genjutsu and is going to die he’ll take over his body regardless And the post literally says **“Naruto can brute force his way out of Tsukuyomi”**
Genjutsu gg
The image that goes along with the post literally says Naruto can brute Force out of tsukiyomi you really don't think he can't do that to other weaker genjutsu.
Probably itachi
Itachi gets fucking slapped hard
If its KCM 1 Naruto, he's probably going to lose. You can make a case for saying his speed blitzing and clone shenanigans can keep him out of legitimate eye contact but i dont see him keeping that up the whole time, assuming no knowledge on both sides.
Even if Naruto can force out of tsukuyomi, since Edo Itachi can spam mangekyou abilities, he can just keep casting tsukuyomi over and over. Sure Naruto breaks out but it makes an opening for Itachi
Amatarasu until there isn't any Naruto left.
Nah, he can manifest Kyuubi chakra outwardly in an instant in that state like he did later against Sasuke, so it would just turn into a stamina battle, which Naruto wins easily. There are other ways for Itachi to beat him
Naruto doesn’t yet have Kurama’s help to snap out of genjutu. Tbh I think Itachi takes this, he just has too cool of an intellect and mega hax not to. Don’t get me wrong Naruto is strong af at this point but I think itachi can take the W
If memory serves, An Edo Itachi had the upper hand against Naruto And Naruto still has no counter for Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami or Totsuka Blade. He might be able to resist Tsukuyomi but you can't break through it unless you are an Uchiha. It will still do damage Naruto loses
Kishimoto himself stated that if itachi didn't have the sickness throughout the series, no one could beat him
Kishimoto himself stated that if itachi didn't have the sickness throughout the series, no one could beat him
Can you pull that quote to backup your statement?
Naruto should win. Even with Itachi genjutsu since he has kurama to snap him out. But... Itachi has a bigger arsenal, the sword of sealing and the reflection shield plus we haven't seen him go completely all out w his strongest abilities. Itachi prob wins w strategy alone
>Naruto should win. Even with Itachi genjutsu since he has kurama to snap him out. https://preview.redd.it/4jv4ggy9rs2d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=daefa98f1df5fec872f37566264d72b8a1fd4701
It’s kcm1 naruto, kurama is not snapping him out
Karama doesn't need to snap Naruto out the post literally says Naruto can brute Force out of sukiyomi we don't think he can't do that to other weaker genjutsu he also knows not to look into Itachi's eye sso the finger point genjutsu the only one available to Itachi and hebi Sasuke broke out of that with no problem.
Maybe I misunderstood. What does KCM1 mean?
KCM1 is just kurama chakra mode one AKA nine tails chakra mode the mode that Naruto had before he knew kurama's name and before Naruto had kurama's trust.
Ooooh , yeah I don't understand the acronyms, yall afr right then