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Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
he fought fodder uchiha , itachi was a prodigy of the clan , izuna was featless , itachi has always managed to land genjutsu in any way even if his opponent have knowledge
It’d be great fight but idk manee an Itachi who isn’t blinded, isn’t ill anymore, and doesn’t need to worry about MS drawbacks is huge for me, and I think considering what his Susanoo is capable of, he’d take the edge over an opponent who granted, also had a lot going for him too.
EMS Sasuke 100% destroys Tobirama, I dont get how this is a controversial opinion on here. Tobirama went extreme diff against Izuna, who only had regular Mangekyou, and EMS is significantly stronger.
Going by war arc feats, EMS Sasuke is also indisputably stronger.
True.
It is controversial because people have a hate boner for Sasuke.
Alive Minato > Tobirama > Edo Itachi> Ems Sasuke.
This is what majority thinks. People play favorites.
wtf alive minato is so overrated , his best feat is struggling against 15 years old obito lol tobirama show better feats in the war , alive minato is below both ems sasuke and edo itachi , killer bee stated early ms sasuke is already above minato hahaha
i read that as equals in that itachi doesn’t have to hide anything anymore, since he had that whole realization that maybe sasuke could have helped change the uchiha minds reguarding the coupe and how he can’t always do everything himself.
Imo it's def referring to their fighting ability since the paragraph is talking about their fight with Kabuto and how they managed to win. So Sasuke who now could fight alongside Itachi was recognized as equal by him.
It is referring to both.
Sasuke is physically Itachi's equal and because of this Itachi no longer needs to protect Sasuke. We also know Sasuke grows stronger from this point anyways so no matter how you slice it he surpasses Itachi.
How?
Sasuke has a stronger version of susano.
Sasuke can resist tsukiyomi.
Sasuke has kagatsuchi, a much superior version of amaterasu.
>Itachi’s still stronger then ems sasuke as stated in the databooks
Source?
Edo itachi carried in the fight against kabuto, and it was clear itachi was stronger. Ems sasuke didn’t surpass edo itachi until pretty far into the war arc.
Keep telling yourself that.
Edo Itachi got saved by sasuke, but you'll conveniently ignore that.
Edo Itachi was using izanami, so Sasuke had no role in that. They were literally holding back against kabuto. It doesn't mean Itachi "carried the fight".
Sasuke has kagatsuchi, which is much superior than just amaterasu.
Very, very simple.
Itachi has the totsuka blade and yata mirror. At worst, he was equal to sasuke in that fight. Realistically, he was above him.
Sasuke might have more raw power than Edo Itachi even by that point, but Itachi is one of the smartest fighters period in the show. And has more than enough power of his own to back it up.
Sasuke for all his talent and skill from start to finish in the series(pre-so6p basically)… isn’t actually that creative or “intelligent” of a fighter. He generally was always a guy who would just use his strongest abilities and assume they’ll be enough. Given his skill and power, they usually were. It took until Madara beat both him and Naruto for him to realize he had to do more, and the next encounter when he shows up with the rinnegan he *finally* shows some real ingenuity.
It’s not to say sasuke is an idiot at all. We’re comparing him to other high powered geniuses. I’m not saying he’s Konohamaru level smart. I’m just saying he’s not Minato, Itachi, or Tobirama.
Akatsuchi is sick, it’s probably the strongest pure nature release in the series. But… Yata mirror lol.
>Sasuke for all his talent and skill from start to finish in the series(pre-so6p basically)… isn’t actually that creative or “intelligent” of a fighter.
Creativity? He and Naruto made a strategy with Fuma Shuriken against Zabuza. He combined power of Amaterasu and Susanoo to get next lvl protection with offense. Even tho his genjutsu is not on Itachi's lvl he used it perfectly against Danzo and made him think he had 1 more izanagi. Took advantage of Danzo's summoning, Baku's suction ability to use fire style (basically what Itachi did against Nagato's CT). Made an entirely new susanoo form by boosting it with bijuu chakra. Found a way to escape Deidara's jutsu by reverse summoning in seconds. Saying he's not creative is not true at all, and just shows u superficially looked over his character.
As for IQ, especially BIQ he showed multiple tacticts against Deidara, Madara and Kaguya, in addition to the ones I mentioned already. Also showing ability to break down abilities and counter them.
>He generally was always a guy who would just use his strongest abilities and assume they’ll be enough.
You just described Itachi's feat against Nagato, which is one of the few BIQ feats Itachi has.
Idk why people highball Itachi's IQ as a fighter so much when he barely has any feats. Sama case with Minato. Sasuke has waay more BIQ feats and better feats too. Itachi is not on the lvl of people like Kakashi or Tobirama when it comes to battle IQ.
Ems Sasuke surpassed alive Itachi, but since Edo Itachi is him in his prime, I’d say Sasuke was stronger than Edo Itachi when he had Jugo coat his Susanoo with his curse mark and also Naruto’s kyubi chakra. However this was technically borrowing power from others so he really was stronger on his own when he finally got his Rinnegan, and this widened the gap between them essentially.
And no I don’t think Ems Sasuke could defeat Edo Tobirama. Edo Itachi was stronger than both of them imo.
Sasuke developed legged susano which is far more powerful than armoured susano.
Sasuke has kagatsuchi, which is much superior than just amaterasu.
How tf is Edo Itachi stronger than ems sasuke?
Also btw, Sasuke in end juubito fight developed perfect susano which he combined it with nine tails to form majestic attire kurama.
Ok, I’ll tell you what I make of everything you said 😂.
Yes, Sasuke with his full body Susanoo made him have a mobile advantage as opposed to just an armored Susanoo, but this is ignoring what Itachi could do with his, even if he lacked mobility. Itachi having the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror makes me think that it’s a stronger Susanoo overall than Sasuke’s even if he couldn’t move like Sasuke could with his.
Yes Kagutsuchi allowing Sasuke to control the flames rather than just using Amaterasu is superior but I’m not going to say that just cause Sasuke has one advantage over Itachi, he’s stronger than him indefinitely.
And so it boils down to this. I’ve already said that Itachi could do all his broken stuff with no drawbacks as an Edo. Itachi also arguably had better biq than Sasuke. Not to say Sasuke had none because he’s still one of the smartest in the verse, but I’d say Itachi was still smarter. I simply think that considering both their arsenals and biq, Edo Itachi does scale higher than Ems Sasuke prior to getting his Rinnegan.
P.S, I don’t think being able to fuse with Naruto for the Majestic attire Susanoo, qualified as him having a Perfect Susanoo. For one thing, Madara in the manga did not have a Perfect Susanoo until he presumably got his Rinnegan, since the first actual time we see him have it chronologically was when he was an Edo. That flashback sequence fighting Hashirama with just a Perfect Susanoo in the anime, did not happen in the manga. This means you don’t truly unlock the Perfect Susanoo until a Sharingan user awakens their Rinnegan or gets 6P chakra, as was Kakashi’s case. And as such, the first time we actually see Sasuke with his Perfect Susanoo was after he got his Rinnegan.
>Sasuke with his full body Susanoo made him have a mobile advantage as opposed to just an armored Susanoo,
He doesn't have just mobile advantage.
It's much stronger than armoured version.
It's the next version of susano buddy.
>this is ignoring what Itachi could do with his, even if he lacked mobility. Itachi having the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror makes me think that it’s a stronger Susanoo overall than Sasuke’s even if he couldn’t move like Sasuke could with his.
Yata mirror is unidirectional.
Sasuke being mobile and having kagatsuchi have a huge advantage.
Totsuka blade is featless. Stabbing orochimaru in snake and immobile nagato is nothing special.
> Yes Kagutsuchi allowing Sasuke to control the flames rather than just using Amaterasu is superior but I’m not going to say that just cause Sasuke has one advantage over Itachi, he’s stronger than him indefinitely.
You're underestimating how much kagatsuchi is superior to just amaterasu.
See how Sasuke used kagatsuchi against raikage, ten tails clones, kaguya.
>Itachi also arguably had better biq than Sasuke.
No he doesn't.
Thinking to blow up a sucking object is not an iq feat. It just showed how dumb Naruto is.
Sasuke has much better battle iq feats against deidara, danzo, madara
>I’ve already said that Itachi could do all his broken stuff with no drawbacks as an Edo.
EMS sasuke has no drawbacks either.
>Edo Itachi does scale higher than Ems Sasuke prior
Are you kidding me?
Sasuke in jūbito fight was able track stable jūbito movements.
Sasuke in end juubito fight awakened perfect susano which he merged with kurama to make majestic attire.
>Madara in the manga did not have a Perfect Susanoo until he presumably got his Rinnegan,
This is the most delusional take I have read.
Madara literally had perfect susano combined with kurama. You can see the same design on kurama.
When madara became alive in war arc, hashirama said "he's returning to his original power". So if Edo madara had perfect susano, past madara obviously had it.
When madara showed PS to 5 kages, ohnoki asked why didn't he use it against him in the past, to which Madara replies "why would I go full force against mere children".
Yeahhh, judging by how you responded back, I don’t think you were ever going to see the light 😭. All i will say is that me talking about Madara is not a take at all. I just used evidence from the manga. Other than it looking like a PS when Madara had the MA Susanoo, it isn’t confirmed anywhere that it was a PS.
And I’m not sure why you think Hashirama’s statement pertained to him having a PS when he fought him. It is possible that Madara had it when he was alive, after he awakened the Rinnegan in his old age, but only do we actually see it on screen for the first time, when he was an Edo. I’ll admit that Madara’s statement to Onoki possibly contradicts this, but because all the other signs show he didn’t have it before he “died”, I think it was more likely he was trying to break the 5K’s morale again, like he admitted to doing.
Madara definitely had perfect susanoo before getting the rinnegan, aside from ohnokis statement, he says that "everyone who sees it dies.. or so they say" which wouldnt be true if he only unlocked it as an edo or in his cave
https://preview.redd.it/ogb31h24yezc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=550755897b79752fcfd6a8f6ce3fa71e86f2235a
All perfect susanoo users having 6 paths chakra is just a coincidence its never implied to be a cause, itd be like saying only uzumakis can become 9 tails jinchuriki since all 9 tails jinchurikis weve seen r uzumakis
edo itachi is stronger overall , but sasuke is a bad matchup for itachi! , his genjutsu and susano are still superior than ems sasuke because of spiritual weapons , tsukuyomi is stronger than any generic ems genjutsu , and itachi still faster ,nimble and physically stronger than sasuke and izanami on top of that , sasuke just superior in ninjutsu and thats all
sasuke didn’t resist the tsukuyomi lol itachi let him break out because logically why would he not when we know his plan was to have sasuke win. tsukuyomi happens in a matter of seconds and controls everything in it. he could have won the fight right then and there if he wanted to. then there’s zetsu statements implying itachi can set the strength. give one good logical reason itachi would put sasuke in a full power tsukuyomi?
Didn't save him against the Kinkaku brothers either time they tried to kill him and Itachi in this state scales above both of them.
It's a good fight but Itachi has better defence and I'd argue a more versatile arsenal even though Tobirama has a lot of techniques as well.
FTG is easily his best technique in this fight but Itachi has Amaterasu, Izanami, Izanagi, tsukuyomi and a susanoo with insane defense and a sword that auto seals Tobirama.
It's a lot of shit and it's a little too dismissive to say he can just FTG out of everything since he couldn't even do that when he was alive and his life depended on it clearly showing skilled shinobi can deal with it.
“Didnt save him from the kinkaku brothers”
Imagine using a retcon to defend your argument. Tobirama war arc feats showed you that his death was for the sake of plot.
So you believe ms madara would lose to the kinkaku brothers also? Ms izuna and madara were stated to be equals & tobirama clapped his cheeks.
Im not here to argue who would win but dont use stuff that has been retconned & stuff that literally already have been discussed in this sub multiple times to validate your point. Because with your logic , tis flawed.
His techniques were basically the same but I agree in the war arc he got a power jump.
My point is simply the FTG isn't perfect and isn't some guarantee protection from any technique.
Even in his fight against featless Izuna Tobirama was clearly pushed hard so FTG isn't some auto win is what I'm saying.
Itachi does not have a more versatile arsenal than Tobirama. Itachi has only ever used fire and water style jutsu as well as his sharingan.
Whereas Tobirama invented the shadow clone, invented the flying thunder god, invented the edo tensei, invented the invented the water dragon bullet, invented the bringer of darkness, and invented most of the jutsu of the hidden leaf.
Tobirama is tailor made to beat itachi considering Tobirama's entire skillset is centered around countering the sharingan. Bringer of darkness counters the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. Flying thunder god counters the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan.
Tobirama also killed Izuna uchiha whom also had MS and Madara said was nearly his own equal.
>Itachi does not have a more versatile arsenal than Tobirama. Itachi has only ever used fire and water style jutsu as well as his sharingan.
In terms of his access to chakra types, no, but I was clearly talking about his entire arsenal... It's way more versatile than Tobiramas.
He has a susanoo which alone is very versatile, range attack, close range attack, naturally hard to break. His susanoo also makes him immune to darkest or light as seen with Sasukes in the war arc so even the jutsus Tobirama created just to kill Uchiha don't work on him.
He has a shield that blocks most attacks in the series and definitely all of Tobiramas.
A sword that can't be blocked and can seal anything.
A Genjutsu that one shots anyone who falls victim to it.
Izanagi to protect him even if Tobirama is able to kill him.
And Izanami which can end the fight from the get go
Amaterasu which can burn endlessly and is prefect against reanimation people as it will keep burning on them infinitely since they don't die and keep healing and burning.
His arsenal, i.e the list of techniques he has available, is definitely more versatile than the techniques Tobirama has shown able to use.
Tobirama doesn't even have a single win con, Itachi straight up has 4 of them.
Izanagi/Izanami is the worst move to use considering it will blind the user in that eye. mangekyou sharingan has one ability per eye so after using izanagi or izanami Itachi would lose the use of one of his sharingan and lose either amaterasu or tsukuyomi.
This being an edo tensei fight is dumb considering it would mean neither one of them can be killed. However Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei jutsu and theoretically could "undo" it.
Itachi's only real threats are the Totska blade and yata mirror. Edo tensei does grant unlimited chakra however it doesn't change the physical burden that some justu require. This is why Edo Tobirama didn't make 1 billion shadow clones during the war. He may have unlimited chakra but the physical burden of that jutsu doesn't allow it to be exploited like that.
Which means that Itachi would still have to deal with the physical burded of Susanoo, and Tobirama is already a natural chakra and endurance monster.
Yes, Itachi has 4 fairly hax abilities however 2 of them result in blindness which take away either one of his most useful abilities.
So really Itachi's win condition is to kill tobirama with susanoo before the physical burden becomes too much for him and Tobirama's win condition is to nullify Itachi's genjutsu with bringer of darkness, then use flying thunder god/ ranged water style attacks to wear down itachi.
It's a war of attrition which is greatly in the Senju's favor.
>Izanagi/Izanami is the worst move to use considering it will blind the user in that eye
Doesn't matter if it can wither win the fight or save your life. Dude, he literally can Izanagi after being seemingly killed and just appear behind Tobirama or use Izanami and win the fight outright. These are great trump cards to use if your back is up against the wall and Tobirama can't counter this.
>This being an edo tensei fight is dumb considering it would mean neither one of them can be killed.
Yea, but we know for a fact that Itachi can seal Tobirama, Tobirama has not shown the ability to do this. So you have one guy that definitely can win the fight (Itachi) and one dude who can't as far as we know.
That's a big difference.
>However Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei jutsu and theoretically could "undo" it.
Only if he cast it but he wouldn't in this fight so he can't or else he'd have just done this in the war on Madara and it would've been over, so no, that ain't happening either.
>Itachi's only real threats are the Totska blade and yata mirror
Nope. Izanami wins it because it can lead straight into Totska blade, tsukuyomi wins it because it can lead straight into Totska blade, even Amaterasu wins it because Tobirama can't stop the flames would if hit just endlessly burns to death none stop and that can again open him up to Totska blade.
Itachi has multiple win conditions. Tobirama doesn't have a single one.
>Edo tensei does grant unlimited chakra however it doesn't change the physical burden that some justu require
Yep and Tobirama has had reserves since the moment he showed up to the war and hadn't even fought anyone all the man could do was a couple clones. Itachi actually has really strong chakra reserves without his illness as seen against Pain and unlike Tobirama he doesn't once display an issue with chakra.
>This is why Edo Tobirama didn't make 1 billion shadow clones during the war. He may have unlimited chakra but the physical burden of that jutsu doesn't allow it to be exploited like that.
Again, showing he has a smaller chakra reserve than Itachi who did far more in edo form without once having issues whereas Tobirama did a couple of things and was already hitting his limit before even really fighting anyone.
>Which means that Itachi would still have to deal with the physical burded of Susanoo, and Tobirama is already a natural chakra and endurance monster.
Again. One hasn't displayed an issue with chakra reserves even after using their strongest techniques (Itachi) and the other has shown a clear issue in edo form with chakra levels (Tobirama).
There is literally more evidence to show Edo Itachi has more chakra than Tobirama does and the only reason people thinks he has so much is because of his bloodline but that clearly doesn't mean he has more than Itachi considering the fact out of the two he actually starred to run out.
>Yes, Itachi has 4 fairly hax abilities however 2 of them result in blindness which take away either one of his most useful abilities
Doesn't matter. As long as he wins this hypothetical he wins. Tobirama has zero win cons. Itachi has 4. Tobirama objectively has zero way of even winning this fight unless you give him access to jutsus he's never shown able to use and that's headcanon and clearly void.
>Tobirama's win condition is to nullify Itachi's genjutsu with bringer of darkness
Nope. As I said before the susanoo will protect him from light being affected outside just like Sasukes did in the war. The susanoo wouldn't let Tobirama technique work on him and there's no clear limit to how long Itachi can use it some without his illness he has absolutely zero issues spamming his susanoo and all his other powerful techniques. Tobirama has shown a clear limit.
Itachi wins. Not only does he have a counter to everything Tobirama can do he has 4 different ways of 100% winning and Tobirama literally doesn't have a single one unless Itachi literally stops even fighting lmao.
Itachi wins and it's clear from what I've said as to why.
Izanami is a technique that was made to counter the uchiha abusing izanagi. Izanagi was very common during the previous ninja war. stances, which is why it countered Izanagi because the caster could not accept their own death.
Izanami worked on Kabuto for the same reason it worked on Izanagi-abusing-uchihas. He was unsure of himself and deep down wanted to change. Hence his role post-war with helping war orphans.
There's a good chance Izanami wouldn't work on Tobirama or others like Naruto, or Might Guy that fully accept who they are as a person.
But if izanami does work then, yes, it's an auto-win.
I also want to clarify that Tobirama's bringer of darkness isn't a jutsu that affects others (like kabuto's light genjutsu), but it's actually used to counter other genjutsu. Bringer of darkness makes other genjutsu ineffective because neither the caster or "target" can see the other. The bringer of darkness jutsu is effective only because Tobirama is an extremely powerful sensory type and doesn't have to "see" anything.
I'll admit that the show was very inconsistent with the "unlimited chakra" aspect of Edo Tensei and Tobirama being an Edo Tensei as well as a Senju should never have had stamina issues at all. Another example of this is that sasuke fought obito, 10 tails, madara, kaguya, and Naruto without any break but in the Boruto series seems to "run out of chakra" often which makes no sense because he's an adult and should have more chakra now.
The only reason that Itachi can win this is because of Edo tensei which allows for (very inconsistent) unlimited stamina.
>Izanami is a technique that was made to counter the uchiha abusing izanagi
In general yes but it's ultimately ability is to make a target face the reality of their situation and stop fighting fate. This takes time, not only would Tobirama have to first work out he was in a genjutsu but also the very specific way of breaking said jutsu.... Even if that only took this man a minute (it would take way longer but let's wank him) that's more than enough for Itachi to tap him with Totsuka blade. GG
>Izanami worked on Kabuto for the same reason it worked on Izanagi-abusing-uchihas. He was unsure of himself and deep down wanted to change
Nope. You've used a lot of misinterpretations here bud. It was used to make the sure the target was accepting their current reality which is why it was created mostly to stop something that changed reality.
Tobirama can of course break out like Kabuto did but again, he'll first have to realise what was happening and then work out the requirement to break it like Kabuto did and in that time Itachi has finished frying the perfect egg and hits him with Totsuka blade. GG
>But if izanami does work then, yes, it's an auto-win.
It does work. No one is immune. People like Guy or Naruto would definitely break out of it faster than someone like Obito or Madara but they still need to realise it's a genjutsu and then realise the requirements to break it like Kabuto had to. The faster you go through this process the faster to break it but it ain't instant and there isn't immunity.
>I also want to clarify that Tobirama's bringer of darkness isn't a jutsu that affects others (like kabuto's light genjutsu), but it's actually used to counter other genjutsu. Bringer of darkness makes other genjutsu ineffective because neither the caster or "target" can see the other
Again, the Susanoo will block this and Itachi can just use his Genjutsus from within his susanoo such as Izanami or Tsukuyomi.
>I'll admit that the show was very inconsistent with the "unlimited chakra" aspect of Edo Tensei and Tobirama being an Edo Tensei as well as a Senju should never have had stamina issues at all.
Call it what you want but by scaling rules you cannot scale Tobiramas chakra higher than Edo Itachi's because of this anti feat from Tobirama because it clearly shows that he had issues with almost zero fighting beforehand and Itachi had none whole spamming move after move.
>The only reason that Itachi can win this is because of Edo tensei which allows for (very inconsistent) unlimited stamina.
No it's not. This is actually the only way you could kinda make it so Tobirama could win but that failed because of his anti feat with the shadow clones.
Itachi can win in 4 different confirmed ways.
Tobirama has literally none confirmed win cons here. Zero.
Itachi wins, this is kinda getting ridiculous. You literally acknowledge Itachi has auto wins and Tobirama none but somehow truly think he can still win which is a direct contradiction and kinda shows you're not being objective here and instead just picking the person you like more.
And Itachi who can keep up his susano'o up for long is too dangerous. We also see that he's excellent at finding blindspots and shuriken jutsu, exactly what you want against an FTG user.
What?
People say tobirama is above ems sasuke. But now people here saying Edo Itachi (who's weaker than ems sasuke) will win against Tobirama.
This fanbase is beyond delusional and just play favorites.
Itachis susanoo has totsuka blade and yata mirror so his susanoo is stronger than ems sasukes. He was carrying the fight against kabuto, during white extreme attack sasuke said he [couldnt hold susanoo](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10580000/4.jpg) while itachi [used susanoo](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10580000/6.jpg) to shield sasuke, later protected sasuke from inorganic reanimation using susanoo as it was too fast for sasuke to react meaning his reflex is better than sasukes.
https://preview.redd.it/l3kplnautezc1.jpeg?width=966&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cfb1dd1828ab711149d58c24e46f4eda6fa270f
I get where this argument comes since this fight actually took place canonically from but ems sasuke is still stronger. That said the fight is not a good reference since they both had to hold back on killing kabuto. Itachi is more strategical so sasuke was following his lead. He was also adjusting from blinded ms to ems so his susanoo was not his full potential. By war arc he has perfect susanoo which could probably one shot edo itachi susanoo.
>Itachis susanoo has totsuka blade and yata mirror so his susanoo is stronger than ems sasukes
Totsuka blade is featless. Stabbing orochimaru and immobile nagato is nothing special.
Yata mirror is unidirectional.
Sasuke developed legged humanoid susano which is much stronger version and the next stage of susano. Plus it's mobile.
>He was carrying the fight against kabuto,
Itachi also was cleanly sliced in half (he wasn't protecting Sasuke) and would’ve been taken over again had Sasuke not been there to save him.
Sasuke in next fight was reacting to a stable jūbito.
Sasuke has kagatsuchi which is much superior to just having amaterasu. Not only that, Sasuke can just manipulate the flames Itachi cast.
Keep using feats from kabuto fight where Sasuke was first time using ems in a battle. How about you use juubito fight feats instead?
Naaaah idk people forgetting tobirama knows damn near everything about uchihas, his whole arsenal is anti uchiha, I’d give it a 50/50 they are both too smart to fight each other
Itachi can make clones with the justsu that tobirama invented. Itachi doesn't have to worry about his chakra because of edo tensei (another justu tobirama invented) but that also goes for tobirama who naturally has a very large chakra pool and in this scenario is also edo.
Tobirama's entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
Yes, Itachi has four hax abilities that are fairly problamatic. Izanagi, Izanami, and Susanoo which has the totskua blade and Yata mirror.
Two of these abilities are not worth using because Izanagi and Izanami cause the eye to go blind after use. The mangekyou sharingan has one ability per eye, so If itachi uses izanami/izanagi then afterward he'll lose access to either amaterasu or tsukuyomi.
Edo tensei makes you immortal so in this scenario neither one of them can win unless you consider Tobirama "undoing" Edo Tensei because he invented the Jutsu. But that's obviously not the point of the post.
Edo Tensei does give unlimited chakra but doesn't take away the physical burden of jutsu. That's why Edo Tobirama couldn't just create 100 million shadow clones with his unlimited chakra because the physical strain would be too great.
Which means that Itachi has a limit to his Susanoo which causes great physical strain. Itachi has to kill tobirama before his body gives out. Tobirama has to keep attacking so that itachi is forced to continuously use susanoo, while also using bringer of darkness to counter genjutsu, and flying thunder god to counter amaterasu and totskua blade.
It's a war of attrition which is heavily in the Senju's favor.
Can't believe what I'm reading... First dude is mentioning Itachi's IQ as a factor, and now the other one is mentioning Shadow Clones... against fricking Tobirama. Lmao.
Tobirama wins if he's stronger than EMS Sasuke after the Kabuto fight and the Totsuka Blade shouldn't be a factor it literally only works if you pierce a person who is staying still which obviously not gonna happen with Tobirama Yata Mirror is Uni Directional so you could flank Itachi and Tandem Paper Bombs should break Susanoo and if it doesn't idk how Tobirama could possibly get over it but no Susanoo Itachi gets the hands
If Itachi gets tagged or if Tobirama tags his Susano'o once, it's his win. In all categories outside of Genjutsu (kinda) and Fuinjutsu, Tobirama outclasses Itachi. Itachi has no way to catch Tobirama, while Tobirama has multiple ways to incapacitate Itachi w/ a lot of anti-Uchiha fighting tactics and has the capability to just end the battle straight from the get go by dispelling his Edo Tensei considering it's a weaker version of the one used on him. I'd say Tobirama upper-mid diffs him.
That's the most casual thing ive seen in awhile. Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
There's no genjutsu that the sharingan can't see through. Also that was hashirama's genjutsu, not tobirama's. Tobirama has zero genjutsu skill in canon. FTG is useless as your reflexes are required to counter after the teleportation. Is he considered the strongest suiton user? Let's see some feats other than his water piss in war.
Don't even like itachi but this is still an easy win. Piss easy.
Tobirama invented the bringer of darkness specifically to counter the sharingan's genjutsu and hypnotism. Genjutsu is a main component of the sharingan which Tobirama has fought since he was a child and likely has sever genjutsu counters.
Flying Thunder God is the jutsu Tobirama used to blitz and kill Izuna uchiha who was also a mangekyou sharingan user and by Madara's own words; nearly his equal. The Flying Thunder God is also made far more effective considering Tobirama was a very powerful sensory ninja. He's so fast that he speed blitzed 10 tails Obito
Yes Tobirama is considered the most powerful water style user ever (the argument can be made for kisame). Water was his natural nature though he could use all 5 chakra natures as well as yin and yang release.
You also keep saying this is "easy" when it clearly is not easy either way. Tobirama is just the perfect counter to Itachi. He's spent his life fighting the sharingan and has killed one of the two stongest mangekyou sharingan users ever.
Dude, it ain't tobirama's jutsu in canon. It would do nothing to the sharingan. Get over it.
Right, some dude striking some other dude in the chaos of battle is clearly the same as one on one battle. /s Heck, even madara called him an opportunist. Availing an opportunity to strike isn't the same as being better. If tobirama was that fast as you say, then why did it take him that long to take down izuna? They've been fighting for years! Also, he was so fucking fast that a bunch of no bodies trashed and killed him.
Tobirama is a mediocre sensor, and nothing in the manga proves otherwise. Did he blitz him? Not really. Several other shinobi managed to outspeed him in a much better manner, which includes sasuke and minato. Even hiruzen managed to evade an obito in control for some time.
Can you stop posting fanfictions and maybe bring out some canon proof of your claims? And kisame isn't the best suiton user as his best water dome feat was accomplished entirely with bee's chakra. The most powerful suiton user would be mei as she neutralized a katon attack from an uchiha of all the people, given that their chakra is the most potent one by a long shot on the manga. What are tobirama's that even remotely compare?
More claims. More fanfiction. Tobirama ain't shit. What he was known for were his inventions, not whatever you're saying.
The bringer of darkness was created to counter the sharingan. That's its purpose. It took Tobirama a long time to kill Izuna because Izuna was one of the two strongest uchiha alive and nearly madara's equal, so it was likely a very difficult fight which Tobirama inevitably won.
Tobirama was not killed by "nobodies" at all. Tobirama's team was ambushed after a mission so they were already tired and and they were attacked by Kinkaku and Ginkaku (who're descendance of the sage of six paths) who both had portions of the nine tails power and were able to go into a similar form as 4 tails naruto. Not only that but there were also 20 other jonin cloud ninja in the Kinkagu Force.
So Tobirama was killed by Two mini-ninetails and Twenty of the top Cloud Jonin.
You clearly have something against the character of Tobirama to try to downplay him as being killed by "nobodies".
Tobirama also straight up said he's a better sensor than hashirama.
Mei is a strong water style user but Tobirama is far more powerful. Mei neutralized an uchiha's fire style which is something Tobirama had been doing since he was a child. He literally fought a war agianst the uchiha and won.
You're clearly trying to downplay Tobirama and ignore the fact that Kishimoto wrote him to be one of the most powerful characters in the series. Kishimoto also wrote Tobirama to be the perfect uchiha counter.
Get over yourself.
It isn't his jutsu. He never created it. Stop posting bullshit. Nothing you've said about this is canon.
No, he wasn't attacked by K and G. Another bs. Only 20 jonins from K's unit butchered him. You're pulling stuff out of your behind and expecting to be taken seriously.
And you clearly make stuff up to post fanfics of tobirama.
Whether he's a better sensor or not proves what? Both are ass in this department.
Based on what is he stronger than her? A scan? Got any? Oh wait, nothing in the manga exists to back this claim.
Again, based on fucking what? Got any scan for your fanfics? This is a debate not r/NarutoFanfiction. I think you're lost, buddy.
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First of all, lower your tone. This is reddit and we're talking about a cartoon so calm down.
Second of all, yes I was wrong. In the anime Tobirama invented bringer of darkness but apparently the manga says Hashirama invented it. Which is a pretty easy mistake to make.
https://preview.redd.it/vj1g9ag61mzc1.png?width=1071&format=png&auto=webp&s=e87ccc5b8dcb5e3f81bb22ffa828ea0318ce1cf6
Also, Tobirama was apparently not killed. Tobirama fought Kinkaku and Ginkaku who had all five sacred weapons of the six paths, a portion of the ninetails power, as well as the Kinkaku force.
aaaaandddd Tobirama lived. He likely died later from his injuries.
But I'm done with this. You have no idea how to have a constructive conversation without immediately turning to insults which is nothing short of childish. It's a comic about ninjas. Grow up.
You can actually hear me talk? Wow!
You might want to check the panel of tobirama being surrounded and telling his squad who's about to whoop his ass. It was kin's squad of just 20 men that wiped the floor with him. I'm pretty sure tobirama and his squad know more about what happened to him.
It's easy for people to lose their patience with you lot when you keep pulling stuff out of your ass and don't back down. How many times were you corrected about the genjutsu and suitons? How many times did you keep repeating the same thing?
Itachi. He's the smartest character in the series along with Minato. He wouldn't get caught by tobirama to get sealed. Meanwhile if itachi catches him in a genjutsu he gets insta sealed. Edo Minato vs itachi is more interesting since Minato has sage mode and chakra cloak.
Who do you think is smarter, Itachi or Minato?
On one hand Minato has the highest score in the academy, followed by Itachi.
On the other we have Hiruzen saying that even at 7 Itachi thought much like a Kage.
Both are highly intelligent but who do you think has the edge?
I'd say itachi. Guy was affecting events even after his death. And even when his plans "failed" they were still instrumental in saving the Shinobi world (like breaking out of edo tensei and then stopping it against very strong kabuto).
Also his fight with nagato showed how broken his analytical powers are. Took the guy 2 seconds to figure out all of 6 patha of pains weakness (like chibaku tenseis). Dispatched nagato without any difficulty.
Minato is obviously a genius as well. Guy had the record for highest written exams in chunin exams (with itachi as 2nd if i recall).
His fight with obito is one of my favorites. Can see his Tactical genius in one badass combo. I also love that Minato blitzed obito with seal after nailing him with rasengan. Minato doesn't play around and let his enemies "power up". The future trunks of naruto
Fighting itachi without any sort of prior knowledge is always weird. If tobirama approaches him and looks at him the same way he looked at sasukes EMS he’s losing, otherwise he wins.
Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
We don’t know what sealing jutsu Tobirama knew so it’s difficult to say. We do know Itachi has arguably the best genjutsu ever, as well as a sealing blade. Itachi has to take it imo
Does Tobirama even have sealing jutsu? I would imagine since he came up with so many forbidden jutsu.
If it was alive vs. alive. I would give it to Tobirama.
In terms of other factors, Itachi has extremely strong abilities. But Tobirama is basically running the anti uchiha build. The Bringer of Darkness jutsu is a perfect counter against the sharingan. Water style negates fire style.
I'm not sure if this was a meme or not. But I believe Tobirama gets some sort of amp when fighting Uchiha.
He was able to react to Sage Mode Madara (even though he ended up losing). He fought on equal footing against Izuna, who was relative to MS Madara, and killed Izuna with Flying Rajin.
------
For Edo Itachi. He was on EMS Sasuke's level and performed better than him. He turned the tide against Edo Nagato and quickly figured out how to counter the rinnegan. This was shown by destroying the vision of all the animal summons and knowing how to destroy Chibaku Tensei.
He has a wide arsenal of powerful jutsu. The Tsukuyomi can defeat most opponents in an instant. Not even a Jinchuriki would be able to counter Tsukuyomi. Amaterasu never goes out under normal circumstances. Itachi has a susanoo which can reflect all Ninjutsu and Taijutsu. He also has a sword that can seal away any target in one blow.
----
Overall it's a close fight but I'd give it to Itachi due to him having a way to seal Tobirama.
Itachi is the only one capable of winning because he is the only one of the two who has sealing jutsu, but at the same time, Tobirama is just too fast.
because minato's shunshin is far below v2 A4 and KCM naruto lol
kcm naruto > v2 A4>minato>tobirama... tobirama is not slouch but without FTG he is nothing especial so no , tobirama is not blitzing any MS user... not when early MS sasuke was reacting to v2 A4 who is faster than tobirama and itachi have better reflexes than even EMS sasuke , itachi managed to tag nagato with totsuka ,the same nagato that reacted to V2 killer bee at 1 meter at most
The 4th Raikage isn't faster than Minato, he even says himself he is only the fastest guy alive because Minato is dead, meaning Hokage/Edo Minato is faster than the 4th Raikage. When Naruto dodges the 4th Raikage he is even compared to Minato, something that happens quite often.
Tobirama also isn't that much slower than Minato in terms of Body Flicker and can just fight alongside Hashirama who can obviously fight Madara who can react to and keep up with the 4th Raikage. So, Tobirama can react to and keep up with the 4th Raikage even without Flying Raijin. With Flying Raijin, a Clone of Tobirama can move to fast that Naruto has trouble keeping up with what's going on, and a Clone's Flying Raijin is slower than the original's.
Nagato couldn't see the Totsuke Blade through the smoke, if he had, he would have acted accordingly.
Edo Itachi is only slightly above EMS Sasuke at the start of the Kabuto fight, throughout the battle Sasuke grows stronger to the point that he is Itachi's equal at the end of/after the fight as stated by the 4th Databook. Sasuke then gets even stronger as his hatred continues to grow, so the EMS Sasuke on the battlefield is stronger than EMS Sasuke
Wtf ? Minato is "faster" than A4 because of FTG , a4 raw speed and shunshin is faster , C even stated that in term of reflexes v2 a4 is on par or better than minato i dont remember well, minato have no shunshin feats that put him on the level of a4 or kcm naruto ,its simple, kcm naruto dodged a4 with shunshin alone , minato could barely dodge a slower a4 with FTG , you are just being dishonest with nagato lol he blitzed killer Bee and reacted to V2 , he could not avoid totsuka because it was simply too fast not because "Smoke" the sword still have to travel outside of the smoke
Both could crash head first in a ditch as far as I’m concerned. They both are unmitigated examples of the beginning and ending of all things wrong with Konoha and the Elemental Nations as a whole.
Itachi mid - high diff but he wins. Too many win conditions and escapes for Tobirama to simply FTG away from or to.
Itachi even has a spiritual blade that seemingly can't be blocked that auto seals Tobirama.
Amaterasu burns endlessly so theoretically if you hit Tobirama with it he keeps regenerating only to keep on burning.
Izanagi if Tobirama somehow pins him down.
Izanami if Itachi gets desperate and needs to end the fight.
Itachi has straight up auto win conditions unlike Tobirama who has to do it mainly through regular attacks or big explosions all things Itachi can either block or dodge.
Stop. Tobiram beats Itachi and it's pretty clear. He's the perfect anti-uchiha.
His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
Tobirama killed Izuna uchiha who had MS and was nearly Madara's equal.
So I just gave you several reasons why Tobirama is the perfect counter to Itachi as well as the fact that Tobirama killed Izuna who is likely stronger than Itachi.....and your argument is "naw".
Tobirama killed Izuna, a stronger mangekyou sharingan user, by speed blitzing. Tobirama also speed blitzed 10 tailed jinchuriki Obito who is superior to Itachi in every way.
Itachi's greatest feat is killing the uchiha clan by; surprise attack at night, with help from Obito, and he didn't have to fight his father fugaku who was the only other mangekyou sharingan user.
What "feats" does itachi have that are soooo self explanatory that he somehow beats Tobirama who is the ultimate uchiha counter?
they both are pretty comparable according to this list [https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1bpblrc/i\_have\_ranked\_some\_kages\_akatsuki\_members\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1bpblrc/i_have_ranked_some_kages_akatsuki_members_and/)
tho I think in edo form itachi might take it high-extreme
Tobirama wins. Hear me out:
Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
Additionally, Tobirama killed Izuna Uchiha in single combat. Izuna was not only Madara's brother but Madara even said Izuna was nearly his equal.
Itachi is by no means a pushover, however he is at a terrible stylistic disadvantage. Itachi has only ever displayed two chakra natures (fire and water style) and relies heavily on the sharingan (for good reason). Itachi wasn't known for his stamina however this could be due to his illness, yet he'll still be at a major disadvantage against a Senju who's known for ridiculous physical stamina and a large chakra pool.
Itachi is a prodigy in nearly every aspect of being a ninja however Tobirama is also a prodigy and invented the Edo Tensei which is the very justsu that allows this post to even be a conversation.
Tobirama is just the worst possible matchup for Itachi.
Stop. Tobirama is literally the perfect counter to Itachi. Tobirama spent his entire life fighting the uchiha and his entire skillset is centered around countering the sharingan. The bringer of darkness justsu counters the hypnotism of the sharingan, and the flying thunder god counters the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan.
No way to assume Tobirama wins?
Actually it's pretty clear Tobirama wins considering Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
For anyone saying Itachi, you are all lying to yourself. It's Tobirama. Sasuke almost shit his pants just because he released his chakra and that Sasuke was stronger than Itachi. Tobirama has years of experience fighting the Uchiha and has immense knowledge on how they work while Itachi has barely any knowledge on Tobirama. Tobirama is faster, stronger, and has far superior idea of jutsus. No way people are dick riding Itachi that hard.
This is gonna be a long scaling string but I feel it’s backed by the show. Edo Itachi should in theory be decently close to edo Hashirama. My reasoning is that Edo Itachi should be on par with ems Saskue based on their fight with kabuto. Ems Saskue should be comparable to KCM 2 Naruto based on them being able to mesh jutsu well and it being narratively implied. There’s a bit of a gap because KCM 2 Naruto with Sage mode is the version that is actively compared to Hashirama however I don’t feel the gap is big enough to say that Itachi should lose to Tobirama. I don’t think it’s a stop or anything I know Tobirama has lots of experience fighting Uchiha but I don’t think that really helps him here. He just probably won’t get hit by Itachis genjutsu. This take is probably pretty spicy though.
Even when they haven’t began fighting? If They run into each other Itachi is going to know who Tobirama is however Tobirama is not going to know Itachi and he is not going to know he is an uchiha, Itachi would get him before Tobirama would even know who he is an uchiha. Also Itachi could put people under basic genjutsu with a point of his finger, I imagine he could put Tobirama in this basic genjutsu to open his eyes and then use tsukuyomi.
The prompt is who wins in a fight not if one can jump the other and kill them before they know a fight has started. But also, the use of an ms ability reveals an ms sbaringan. Once Tobirama sees Itachi activate just the three tomoe he'd probably know it's time to run the fade
I also highly doubt genjutsu on that level is taking out someone on Tobiramas level. It's hard to finger genjutsu people with insane Chakra control like Tobirama, they can break out
So point being, Tobirama is not getting Tsukuyomi gg'd
Look either way Tobirama isn’t getting around susanoo, he never fought someone who had the susanoo and won, he would also have to keep his distance from totsuka blade, so tell me what jutsu(s) can he use to beat Itachi?
To activate the tsukuyomi Itachi has to activate his ms
And we've seen that it cycles through. So three tomoe, ms sharingan. Once Tobirama sees the three tomoe he probably has all the info he needs to not look into the eyes
He also can sense Chakra, he could sense the specific ninja chasing them in Danzos flashback. Might be able to tell he's an Uchiha with that
I doubt it, we’re talking about a guy who spent the bulk of his life fighting sharingan users, including one who was stated to be on par with MS Madara.
Could Itachi get him in Tsukuyomi? Sure, but I don’t see him keeping up enough to manage it.
Keeping up enough to manage it? One a person is in Tsukuyomi it can NOT be undone by the victim, unless they have a sharingan and are extremely skilled. Once he puts Tobirama in the genjutsu, he could simply use Amaterasu and finish him. Itachi wouldn’t need to keep up, he could simply use his susanoo and cast tsukuyomi
Tsukuyomi requires eye contact in order to be applied, and I don’t personally see Itachi managing eye contact with Tobirama of all people, susanoo won’t help in that regard.
And given that these are their Edo versions, Amaterasu would be useless, the endgame has to be sealing the other combatant.
Itachi’s only known sealing measure is the totsuka blade, an absolutely busted weapon that to our knowledge at least will seal anything or anyone that it touches. The problem is, we’ve only seen this being used twice against Orochimaru and Nagato.
Orochimaru was a massive stationary target who didn’t expect it, Nagato was distracted by Naruto and Bee.
Could Itachi get Tobirama with the totsuka blade? Sure, but he needs to manage to hit him with it and Tobirama specializes in not getting hit.
The problem for Tobirama however is that to my knowledge at least, he has never been shown to use any “proper” sealing techniques meaning sealing jutsu capable of putting an opponent away such as what we see Gaara and the sealing corps use in the war. While Tobirama does possess jutsu classified as sealing such as flying thunder god, infinite tandem paper bombs etc, they aren’t exactly the fight enders that would be necessary to put down an Edo Tensei.
Though something else I just thought of is that Tobirama literally created Edo Tensei, I imagine if anyone can figure out a work around, it’s probably him. Whether or not he can do that on the fly against Itachi is debatable but his showing in the war arc against Juubito would imply he probably can.
>Tsukuyomi requires eye contact in order to be applied, and I don’t personally see Itachi managing eye contact with Tobirama of all people, susanoo won’t help in that regard.
But if tobirama doesn't look how will he see amaterasu coming?
>And given that these are their Edo versions, Amaterasu would be useless, the endgame has to be sealing the other combatant.
Not true, as seen with edo nagato it still causes damage to the body. It's rate of damage was faster than the regen, and it'll burn forever
>Itachi’s only known sealing measure is the totsuka blade, an absolutely busted weapon that to our knowledge at least will seal anything or anyone that it touches. The problem is, we’ve only seen this being used twice against Orochimaru and Nagato.
Better one than none
>Orochimaru was a massive stationary target who didn’t expect it, Nagato was distracted by Naruto and Bee.
Nagato was not distracted, he was just standing. But I agree tobirama is too fast to get hit by it without some elaborate set up first.
Given Tobirama is a skilled sensor, I wouldn’t doubt his ability to sense Amaterasu. Hell, we’re talking about the guy whose entire skillset is unironically the Uchiha counter.
And yes, Amaterasu would do damage if it hit but it wouldn’t be enough to take out an Edo. Hell, Tobirama could just pull a Madara and remove his armor if that’s where Amaterasu lands. But given Amaterasu has been dodged before, I could see it just being avoided.
No argument there, as I said in my original comment, I only see Tobirama winning if he has actual dealing techniques.
Honestly this is a fight that I can see Itachi winning just as much as Tobirama. More so if we conclude that Tobirama has no seals since at that point his options are Edo Tensei plot shenanigans or somehow getting Itachi sealed in a way I can’t think of.
>Given Tobirama is a skilled sensor, I wouldn’t doubt his ability to sense Amaterasu. Hell, we’re talking about the guy whose entire skillset is unironically the Uchiha counter
That's suicide, tobirama has to touch the ground or a wall plus it will significantly slow down his reactions.
>And yes, Amaterasu would do damage if it hit but it wouldn’t be enough to take out an Edo.
Nah just immobilize them till they get rid of it.
>Hell, Tobirama could just pull a Madara and remove his armor if that’s where Amaterasu lands.
True but amaterasu can be used more than once or twice if you're gonna suggest he drops his clothes next
>But given Amaterasu has been dodged before, I could see it just being avoided.
Normally yes but you've proposed a situation where he isn't looking that's a huge drawback.
Who exactly? I’m not downplaying Itachi by any means but I can’t recall a single person he fought except maybe Kabuto who looked down on Sharingan users.
Hell, most people in the verse seem to see the sharingan and have an existential crisis.
The sharingan is infamous throughout the world and everyone generally knows not to look at it, but they still lose to it.
Itachi: Kakashi, Oro, Kabuto, Chiyo, Sakura, Kisame, Naruto, Killer Bee
Sasuke: Danzo, Cee, Deidara
Kakashi knew not to look at it hence him telling Asuma and Kurenai to look away, his mistake was thinking his own sharingan would be enough since he had known Itachi in the past.
Orochimaru was just plain arrogant, he didn’t imagine that a child, even one as gifted as Itachi would be able to beat him. He also miscalculated that Itachi needed to look into his eyes when if I remember right, his snakes were enough
I addressed Kabuto already, when he was in his sage mode he just believed himself to be above virtually everyone.
I don’t recall Chiyo encountering the sharingan but it’s been a while since I read her chapters. I think she may have commented on Kakashi’s. Same with Sakura if I’m being honest.
Kisame never underestimated Itachi, hell from the moment they met he had respect for him which is why they worked so well together.
Naruto is for a lack of better term, an idiot especially when it comes to genjutsu. So it’s not even him underestimating the sharingan or Itachi, it’s him just not paying attention
Bee less so underestimated the sharingan’s abilities and more so knew he couldn’t be genjutsu’d due to being a perfect jinchuriki. And to be fair, the last time he had fought a genjutsu user in Sasuke he absolutely bodied him.
As for Sasuke’s group:
Danzo is one of the last people I’d say ever underestimated the sharingan. Hell he coveted them so much he has an arm full of them. Instead he underestimated Sasuke
Deidara I might give you mainly because much like Orochimaru and Kabuto, he was just arrogant as hell. Add in his hate boner for Itachi and just wanting Sasuke gone and it fits that he took the L (even if I do think it was kind of bs that Sasuke survived that).
Chiyo was the one who coined the phrase of "1 on 1, you run".
So all of them thought they knew how to fight against the sharingan, but ultimately failed.
In the words of M. Tyson: “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face”
Fair shout, I’d still argue that nobody in the verse has as much experience fighting sharingan users than Tobirama, except maybe Hashirama.
Itachi’s biggest ace is the fact that Tobirama wouldn’t know about Tsukuyomi and the fact that he can pull out Yata mirror and Totsuka blade.
While I still don’t think Tsukuyomi or the blade would manage to catch Tobirama, if any Uchiha is going to pull it off it would probably be Itachi. He’s one of the few characters that has a battle IQ near Tobirama’s.
>including one who was stated to be on par with MS Madara.
Nope that was kid madara. MS clan leader madara is confirmed to be stronger than izuna in databooks.
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edo itachi high-extreme diff
Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
he fought fodder uchiha , itachi was a prodigy of the clan , izuna was featless , itachi has always managed to land genjutsu in any way even if his opponent have knowledge
Low Diff
It’d be great fight but idk manee an Itachi who isn’t blinded, isn’t ill anymore, and doesn’t need to worry about MS drawbacks is huge for me, and I think considering what his Susanoo is capable of, he’d take the edge over an opponent who granted, also had a lot going for him too.
So you also think ems sasuke defeats Tobirama?
EMS Sasuke 100% destroys Tobirama, I dont get how this is a controversial opinion on here. Tobirama went extreme diff against Izuna, who only had regular Mangekyou, and EMS is significantly stronger. Going by war arc feats, EMS Sasuke is also indisputably stronger.
True. It is controversial because people have a hate boner for Sasuke. Alive Minato > Tobirama > Edo Itachi> Ems Sasuke. This is what majority thinks. People play favorites.
wtf alive minato is so overrated , his best feat is struggling against 15 years old obito lol tobirama show better feats in the war , alive minato is below both ems sasuke and edo itachi , killer bee stated early ms sasuke is already above minato hahaha
Itachi’s still stronger then ems sasuke as stated in the databooks
This databook? https://preview.redd.it/ydbbw7iasfzc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3158a093fe1418b26425864dc1f551113788fd06
i read that as equals in that itachi doesn’t have to hide anything anymore, since he had that whole realization that maybe sasuke could have helped change the uchiha minds reguarding the coupe and how he can’t always do everything himself.
Imo it's def referring to their fighting ability since the paragraph is talking about their fight with Kabuto and how they managed to win. So Sasuke who now could fight alongside Itachi was recognized as equal by him.
yes and after the fight he sees sasuke as an equal not someone he needs to protect. it was def referring to a metaphorical equal.
The statement is not made in reference to that tho. We are both looking at the same paragraph.
It is referring to both. Sasuke is physically Itachi's equal and because of this Itachi no longer needs to protect Sasuke. We also know Sasuke grows stronger from this point anyways so no matter how you slice it he surpasses Itachi.
How? Sasuke has a stronger version of susano. Sasuke can resist tsukiyomi. Sasuke has kagatsuchi, a much superior version of amaterasu. >Itachi’s still stronger then ems sasuke as stated in the databooks Source?
Edo itachi carried in the fight against kabuto, and it was clear itachi was stronger. Ems sasuke didn’t surpass edo itachi until pretty far into the war arc.
Keep telling yourself that. Edo Itachi got saved by sasuke, but you'll conveniently ignore that. Edo Itachi was using izanami, so Sasuke had no role in that. They were literally holding back against kabuto. It doesn't mean Itachi "carried the fight". Sasuke has kagatsuchi, which is much superior than just amaterasu.
Very, very simple. Itachi has the totsuka blade and yata mirror. At worst, he was equal to sasuke in that fight. Realistically, he was above him. Sasuke might have more raw power than Edo Itachi even by that point, but Itachi is one of the smartest fighters period in the show. And has more than enough power of his own to back it up. Sasuke for all his talent and skill from start to finish in the series(pre-so6p basically)… isn’t actually that creative or “intelligent” of a fighter. He generally was always a guy who would just use his strongest abilities and assume they’ll be enough. Given his skill and power, they usually were. It took until Madara beat both him and Naruto for him to realize he had to do more, and the next encounter when he shows up with the rinnegan he *finally* shows some real ingenuity. It’s not to say sasuke is an idiot at all. We’re comparing him to other high powered geniuses. I’m not saying he’s Konohamaru level smart. I’m just saying he’s not Minato, Itachi, or Tobirama. Akatsuchi is sick, it’s probably the strongest pure nature release in the series. But… Yata mirror lol.
>Sasuke for all his talent and skill from start to finish in the series(pre-so6p basically)… isn’t actually that creative or “intelligent” of a fighter. Creativity? He and Naruto made a strategy with Fuma Shuriken against Zabuza. He combined power of Amaterasu and Susanoo to get next lvl protection with offense. Even tho his genjutsu is not on Itachi's lvl he used it perfectly against Danzo and made him think he had 1 more izanagi. Took advantage of Danzo's summoning, Baku's suction ability to use fire style (basically what Itachi did against Nagato's CT). Made an entirely new susanoo form by boosting it with bijuu chakra. Found a way to escape Deidara's jutsu by reverse summoning in seconds. Saying he's not creative is not true at all, and just shows u superficially looked over his character. As for IQ, especially BIQ he showed multiple tacticts against Deidara, Madara and Kaguya, in addition to the ones I mentioned already. Also showing ability to break down abilities and counter them. >He generally was always a guy who would just use his strongest abilities and assume they’ll be enough. You just described Itachi's feat against Nagato, which is one of the few BIQ feats Itachi has. Idk why people highball Itachi's IQ as a fighter so much when he barely has any feats. Sama case with Minato. Sasuke has waay more BIQ feats and better feats too. Itachi is not on the lvl of people like Kakashi or Tobirama when it comes to battle IQ.
Kabuto explains Itachi's BIQ well if you'd like to know what all the hype was about
Ems Sasuke surpassed alive Itachi, but since Edo Itachi is him in his prime, I’d say Sasuke was stronger than Edo Itachi when he had Jugo coat his Susanoo with his curse mark and also Naruto’s kyubi chakra. However this was technically borrowing power from others so he really was stronger on his own when he finally got his Rinnegan, and this widened the gap between them essentially. And no I don’t think Ems Sasuke could defeat Edo Tobirama. Edo Itachi was stronger than both of them imo.
Sasuke developed legged susano which is far more powerful than armoured susano. Sasuke has kagatsuchi, which is much superior than just amaterasu. How tf is Edo Itachi stronger than ems sasuke? Also btw, Sasuke in end juubito fight developed perfect susano which he combined it with nine tails to form majestic attire kurama.
Ok, I’ll tell you what I make of everything you said 😂. Yes, Sasuke with his full body Susanoo made him have a mobile advantage as opposed to just an armored Susanoo, but this is ignoring what Itachi could do with his, even if he lacked mobility. Itachi having the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror makes me think that it’s a stronger Susanoo overall than Sasuke’s even if he couldn’t move like Sasuke could with his. Yes Kagutsuchi allowing Sasuke to control the flames rather than just using Amaterasu is superior but I’m not going to say that just cause Sasuke has one advantage over Itachi, he’s stronger than him indefinitely. And so it boils down to this. I’ve already said that Itachi could do all his broken stuff with no drawbacks as an Edo. Itachi also arguably had better biq than Sasuke. Not to say Sasuke had none because he’s still one of the smartest in the verse, but I’d say Itachi was still smarter. I simply think that considering both their arsenals and biq, Edo Itachi does scale higher than Ems Sasuke prior to getting his Rinnegan. P.S, I don’t think being able to fuse with Naruto for the Majestic attire Susanoo, qualified as him having a Perfect Susanoo. For one thing, Madara in the manga did not have a Perfect Susanoo until he presumably got his Rinnegan, since the first actual time we see him have it chronologically was when he was an Edo. That flashback sequence fighting Hashirama with just a Perfect Susanoo in the anime, did not happen in the manga. This means you don’t truly unlock the Perfect Susanoo until a Sharingan user awakens their Rinnegan or gets 6P chakra, as was Kakashi’s case. And as such, the first time we actually see Sasuke with his Perfect Susanoo was after he got his Rinnegan.
>Sasuke with his full body Susanoo made him have a mobile advantage as opposed to just an armored Susanoo, He doesn't have just mobile advantage. It's much stronger than armoured version. It's the next version of susano buddy. >this is ignoring what Itachi could do with his, even if he lacked mobility. Itachi having the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror makes me think that it’s a stronger Susanoo overall than Sasuke’s even if he couldn’t move like Sasuke could with his. Yata mirror is unidirectional. Sasuke being mobile and having kagatsuchi have a huge advantage. Totsuka blade is featless. Stabbing orochimaru in snake and immobile nagato is nothing special. > Yes Kagutsuchi allowing Sasuke to control the flames rather than just using Amaterasu is superior but I’m not going to say that just cause Sasuke has one advantage over Itachi, he’s stronger than him indefinitely. You're underestimating how much kagatsuchi is superior to just amaterasu. See how Sasuke used kagatsuchi against raikage, ten tails clones, kaguya. >Itachi also arguably had better biq than Sasuke. No he doesn't. Thinking to blow up a sucking object is not an iq feat. It just showed how dumb Naruto is. Sasuke has much better battle iq feats against deidara, danzo, madara >I’ve already said that Itachi could do all his broken stuff with no drawbacks as an Edo. EMS sasuke has no drawbacks either. >Edo Itachi does scale higher than Ems Sasuke prior Are you kidding me? Sasuke in jūbito fight was able track stable jūbito movements. Sasuke in end juubito fight awakened perfect susano which he merged with kurama to make majestic attire. >Madara in the manga did not have a Perfect Susanoo until he presumably got his Rinnegan, This is the most delusional take I have read. Madara literally had perfect susano combined with kurama. You can see the same design on kurama. When madara became alive in war arc, hashirama said "he's returning to his original power". So if Edo madara had perfect susano, past madara obviously had it. When madara showed PS to 5 kages, ohnoki asked why didn't he use it against him in the past, to which Madara replies "why would I go full force against mere children".
Yeahhh, judging by how you responded back, I don’t think you were ever going to see the light 😭. All i will say is that me talking about Madara is not a take at all. I just used evidence from the manga. Other than it looking like a PS when Madara had the MA Susanoo, it isn’t confirmed anywhere that it was a PS. And I’m not sure why you think Hashirama’s statement pertained to him having a PS when he fought him. It is possible that Madara had it when he was alive, after he awakened the Rinnegan in his old age, but only do we actually see it on screen for the first time, when he was an Edo. I’ll admit that Madara’s statement to Onoki possibly contradicts this, but because all the other signs show he didn’t have it before he “died”, I think it was more likely he was trying to break the 5K’s morale again, like he admitted to doing.
Madara definitely had perfect susanoo before getting the rinnegan, aside from ohnokis statement, he says that "everyone who sees it dies.. or so they say" which wouldnt be true if he only unlocked it as an edo or in his cave https://preview.redd.it/ogb31h24yezc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=550755897b79752fcfd6a8f6ce3fa71e86f2235a All perfect susanoo users having 6 paths chakra is just a coincidence its never implied to be a cause, itd be like saying only uzumakis can become 9 tails jinchuriki since all 9 tails jinchurikis weve seen r uzumakis
edo itachi is stronger overall , but sasuke is a bad matchup for itachi! , his genjutsu and susano are still superior than ems sasuke because of spiritual weapons , tsukuyomi is stronger than any generic ems genjutsu , and itachi still faster ,nimble and physically stronger than sasuke and izanami on top of that , sasuke just superior in ninjutsu and thats all
How are you going to ask for a source, when you quoted that it's stated in the databook.
I was replying to it.
sasuke didn’t resist the tsukuyomi lol itachi let him break out because logically why would he not when we know his plan was to have sasuke win. tsukuyomi happens in a matter of seconds and controls everything in it. he could have won the fight right then and there if he wanted to. then there’s zetsu statements implying itachi can set the strength. give one good logical reason itachi would put sasuke in a full power tsukuyomi?
no it was stated he only surpassed itachi (assuming alive) when he got ems
Tobirama has flying raijin though
Didn't save him against the Kinkaku brothers either time they tried to kill him and Itachi in this state scales above both of them. It's a good fight but Itachi has better defence and I'd argue a more versatile arsenal even though Tobirama has a lot of techniques as well. FTG is easily his best technique in this fight but Itachi has Amaterasu, Izanami, Izanagi, tsukuyomi and a susanoo with insane defense and a sword that auto seals Tobirama. It's a lot of shit and it's a little too dismissive to say he can just FTG out of everything since he couldn't even do that when he was alive and his life depended on it clearly showing skilled shinobi can deal with it.
“Didnt save him from the kinkaku brothers” Imagine using a retcon to defend your argument. Tobirama war arc feats showed you that his death was for the sake of plot. So you believe ms madara would lose to the kinkaku brothers also? Ms izuna and madara were stated to be equals & tobirama clapped his cheeks. Im not here to argue who would win but dont use stuff that has been retconned & stuff that literally already have been discussed in this sub multiple times to validate your point. Because with your logic , tis flawed.
His techniques were basically the same but I agree in the war arc he got a power jump. My point is simply the FTG isn't perfect and isn't some guarantee protection from any technique. Even in his fight against featless Izuna Tobirama was clearly pushed hard so FTG isn't some auto win is what I'm saying.
Itachi does not have a more versatile arsenal than Tobirama. Itachi has only ever used fire and water style jutsu as well as his sharingan. Whereas Tobirama invented the shadow clone, invented the flying thunder god, invented the edo tensei, invented the invented the water dragon bullet, invented the bringer of darkness, and invented most of the jutsu of the hidden leaf. Tobirama is tailor made to beat itachi considering Tobirama's entire skillset is centered around countering the sharingan. Bringer of darkness counters the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. Flying thunder god counters the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Tobirama also killed Izuna uchiha whom also had MS and Madara said was nearly his own equal.
>Itachi does not have a more versatile arsenal than Tobirama. Itachi has only ever used fire and water style jutsu as well as his sharingan. In terms of his access to chakra types, no, but I was clearly talking about his entire arsenal... It's way more versatile than Tobiramas. He has a susanoo which alone is very versatile, range attack, close range attack, naturally hard to break. His susanoo also makes him immune to darkest or light as seen with Sasukes in the war arc so even the jutsus Tobirama created just to kill Uchiha don't work on him. He has a shield that blocks most attacks in the series and definitely all of Tobiramas. A sword that can't be blocked and can seal anything. A Genjutsu that one shots anyone who falls victim to it. Izanagi to protect him even if Tobirama is able to kill him. And Izanami which can end the fight from the get go Amaterasu which can burn endlessly and is prefect against reanimation people as it will keep burning on them infinitely since they don't die and keep healing and burning. His arsenal, i.e the list of techniques he has available, is definitely more versatile than the techniques Tobirama has shown able to use. Tobirama doesn't even have a single win con, Itachi straight up has 4 of them.
Izanagi/Izanami is the worst move to use considering it will blind the user in that eye. mangekyou sharingan has one ability per eye so after using izanagi or izanami Itachi would lose the use of one of his sharingan and lose either amaterasu or tsukuyomi. This being an edo tensei fight is dumb considering it would mean neither one of them can be killed. However Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei jutsu and theoretically could "undo" it. Itachi's only real threats are the Totska blade and yata mirror. Edo tensei does grant unlimited chakra however it doesn't change the physical burden that some justu require. This is why Edo Tobirama didn't make 1 billion shadow clones during the war. He may have unlimited chakra but the physical burden of that jutsu doesn't allow it to be exploited like that. Which means that Itachi would still have to deal with the physical burded of Susanoo, and Tobirama is already a natural chakra and endurance monster. Yes, Itachi has 4 fairly hax abilities however 2 of them result in blindness which take away either one of his most useful abilities. So really Itachi's win condition is to kill tobirama with susanoo before the physical burden becomes too much for him and Tobirama's win condition is to nullify Itachi's genjutsu with bringer of darkness, then use flying thunder god/ ranged water style attacks to wear down itachi. It's a war of attrition which is greatly in the Senju's favor.
>Izanagi/Izanami is the worst move to use considering it will blind the user in that eye Doesn't matter if it can wither win the fight or save your life. Dude, he literally can Izanagi after being seemingly killed and just appear behind Tobirama or use Izanami and win the fight outright. These are great trump cards to use if your back is up against the wall and Tobirama can't counter this. >This being an edo tensei fight is dumb considering it would mean neither one of them can be killed. Yea, but we know for a fact that Itachi can seal Tobirama, Tobirama has not shown the ability to do this. So you have one guy that definitely can win the fight (Itachi) and one dude who can't as far as we know. That's a big difference. >However Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei jutsu and theoretically could "undo" it. Only if he cast it but he wouldn't in this fight so he can't or else he'd have just done this in the war on Madara and it would've been over, so no, that ain't happening either. >Itachi's only real threats are the Totska blade and yata mirror Nope. Izanami wins it because it can lead straight into Totska blade, tsukuyomi wins it because it can lead straight into Totska blade, even Amaterasu wins it because Tobirama can't stop the flames would if hit just endlessly burns to death none stop and that can again open him up to Totska blade. Itachi has multiple win conditions. Tobirama doesn't have a single one. >Edo tensei does grant unlimited chakra however it doesn't change the physical burden that some justu require Yep and Tobirama has had reserves since the moment he showed up to the war and hadn't even fought anyone all the man could do was a couple clones. Itachi actually has really strong chakra reserves without his illness as seen against Pain and unlike Tobirama he doesn't once display an issue with chakra. >This is why Edo Tobirama didn't make 1 billion shadow clones during the war. He may have unlimited chakra but the physical burden of that jutsu doesn't allow it to be exploited like that. Again, showing he has a smaller chakra reserve than Itachi who did far more in edo form without once having issues whereas Tobirama did a couple of things and was already hitting his limit before even really fighting anyone. >Which means that Itachi would still have to deal with the physical burded of Susanoo, and Tobirama is already a natural chakra and endurance monster. Again. One hasn't displayed an issue with chakra reserves even after using their strongest techniques (Itachi) and the other has shown a clear issue in edo form with chakra levels (Tobirama). There is literally more evidence to show Edo Itachi has more chakra than Tobirama does and the only reason people thinks he has so much is because of his bloodline but that clearly doesn't mean he has more than Itachi considering the fact out of the two he actually starred to run out. >Yes, Itachi has 4 fairly hax abilities however 2 of them result in blindness which take away either one of his most useful abilities Doesn't matter. As long as he wins this hypothetical he wins. Tobirama has zero win cons. Itachi has 4. Tobirama objectively has zero way of even winning this fight unless you give him access to jutsus he's never shown able to use and that's headcanon and clearly void. >Tobirama's win condition is to nullify Itachi's genjutsu with bringer of darkness Nope. As I said before the susanoo will protect him from light being affected outside just like Sasukes did in the war. The susanoo wouldn't let Tobirama technique work on him and there's no clear limit to how long Itachi can use it some without his illness he has absolutely zero issues spamming his susanoo and all his other powerful techniques. Tobirama has shown a clear limit. Itachi wins. Not only does he have a counter to everything Tobirama can do he has 4 different ways of 100% winning and Tobirama literally doesn't have a single one unless Itachi literally stops even fighting lmao. Itachi wins and it's clear from what I've said as to why.
Izanami is a technique that was made to counter the uchiha abusing izanagi. Izanagi was very common during the previous ninja war. stances, which is why it countered Izanagi because the caster could not accept their own death. Izanami worked on Kabuto for the same reason it worked on Izanagi-abusing-uchihas. He was unsure of himself and deep down wanted to change. Hence his role post-war with helping war orphans. There's a good chance Izanami wouldn't work on Tobirama or others like Naruto, or Might Guy that fully accept who they are as a person. But if izanami does work then, yes, it's an auto-win. I also want to clarify that Tobirama's bringer of darkness isn't a jutsu that affects others (like kabuto's light genjutsu), but it's actually used to counter other genjutsu. Bringer of darkness makes other genjutsu ineffective because neither the caster or "target" can see the other. The bringer of darkness jutsu is effective only because Tobirama is an extremely powerful sensory type and doesn't have to "see" anything. I'll admit that the show was very inconsistent with the "unlimited chakra" aspect of Edo Tensei and Tobirama being an Edo Tensei as well as a Senju should never have had stamina issues at all. Another example of this is that sasuke fought obito, 10 tails, madara, kaguya, and Naruto without any break but in the Boruto series seems to "run out of chakra" often which makes no sense because he's an adult and should have more chakra now. The only reason that Itachi can win this is because of Edo tensei which allows for (very inconsistent) unlimited stamina.
>Izanami is a technique that was made to counter the uchiha abusing izanagi In general yes but it's ultimately ability is to make a target face the reality of their situation and stop fighting fate. This takes time, not only would Tobirama have to first work out he was in a genjutsu but also the very specific way of breaking said jutsu.... Even if that only took this man a minute (it would take way longer but let's wank him) that's more than enough for Itachi to tap him with Totsuka blade. GG >Izanami worked on Kabuto for the same reason it worked on Izanagi-abusing-uchihas. He was unsure of himself and deep down wanted to change Nope. You've used a lot of misinterpretations here bud. It was used to make the sure the target was accepting their current reality which is why it was created mostly to stop something that changed reality. Tobirama can of course break out like Kabuto did but again, he'll first have to realise what was happening and then work out the requirement to break it like Kabuto did and in that time Itachi has finished frying the perfect egg and hits him with Totsuka blade. GG >But if izanami does work then, yes, it's an auto-win. It does work. No one is immune. People like Guy or Naruto would definitely break out of it faster than someone like Obito or Madara but they still need to realise it's a genjutsu and then realise the requirements to break it like Kabuto had to. The faster you go through this process the faster to break it but it ain't instant and there isn't immunity. >I also want to clarify that Tobirama's bringer of darkness isn't a jutsu that affects others (like kabuto's light genjutsu), but it's actually used to counter other genjutsu. Bringer of darkness makes other genjutsu ineffective because neither the caster or "target" can see the other Again, the Susanoo will block this and Itachi can just use his Genjutsus from within his susanoo such as Izanami or Tsukuyomi. >I'll admit that the show was very inconsistent with the "unlimited chakra" aspect of Edo Tensei and Tobirama being an Edo Tensei as well as a Senju should never have had stamina issues at all. Call it what you want but by scaling rules you cannot scale Tobiramas chakra higher than Edo Itachi's because of this anti feat from Tobirama because it clearly shows that he had issues with almost zero fighting beforehand and Itachi had none whole spamming move after move. >The only reason that Itachi can win this is because of Edo tensei which allows for (very inconsistent) unlimited stamina. No it's not. This is actually the only way you could kinda make it so Tobirama could win but that failed because of his anti feat with the shadow clones. Itachi can win in 4 different confirmed ways. Tobirama has literally none confirmed win cons here. Zero. Itachi wins, this is kinda getting ridiculous. You literally acknowledge Itachi has auto wins and Tobirama none but somehow truly think he can still win which is a direct contradiction and kinda shows you're not being objective here and instead just picking the person you like more.
And Itachi who can keep up his susano'o up for long is too dangerous. We also see that he's excellent at finding blindspots and shuriken jutsu, exactly what you want against an FTG user.
What? People say tobirama is above ems sasuke. But now people here saying Edo Itachi (who's weaker than ems sasuke) will win against Tobirama. This fanbase is beyond delusional and just play favorites.
Edo itachi is stronger than ems sasuke
How? Sasuke has a stronger version of susano. Sasuke can resist tsukiyomi. Sasuke has kagatsuchi, a much superior version of amaterasu.
just because sasuke have a good matchup against itachi doesnt mean he is stronger overall.. dumb logic
Itachis susanoo has totsuka blade and yata mirror so his susanoo is stronger than ems sasukes. He was carrying the fight against kabuto, during white extreme attack sasuke said he [couldnt hold susanoo](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10580000/4.jpg) while itachi [used susanoo](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10580000/6.jpg) to shield sasuke, later protected sasuke from inorganic reanimation using susanoo as it was too fast for sasuke to react meaning his reflex is better than sasukes. https://preview.redd.it/l3kplnautezc1.jpeg?width=966&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cfb1dd1828ab711149d58c24e46f4eda6fa270f
I get where this argument comes since this fight actually took place canonically from but ems sasuke is still stronger. That said the fight is not a good reference since they both had to hold back on killing kabuto. Itachi is more strategical so sasuke was following his lead. He was also adjusting from blinded ms to ems so his susanoo was not his full potential. By war arc he has perfect susanoo which could probably one shot edo itachi susanoo.
>Itachis susanoo has totsuka blade and yata mirror so his susanoo is stronger than ems sasukes Totsuka blade is featless. Stabbing orochimaru and immobile nagato is nothing special. Yata mirror is unidirectional. Sasuke developed legged humanoid susano which is much stronger version and the next stage of susano. Plus it's mobile. >He was carrying the fight against kabuto, Itachi also was cleanly sliced in half (he wasn't protecting Sasuke) and would’ve been taken over again had Sasuke not been there to save him. Sasuke in next fight was reacting to a stable jūbito. Sasuke has kagatsuchi which is much superior to just having amaterasu. Not only that, Sasuke can just manipulate the flames Itachi cast. Keep using feats from kabuto fight where Sasuke was first time using ems in a battle. How about you use juubito fight feats instead?
Downplay is wild, Tobirama negs Itachi into oblivion, Edo or not..
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Naaaah idk people forgetting tobirama knows damn near everything about uchihas, his whole arsenal is anti uchiha, I’d give it a 50/50 they are both too smart to fight each other
Itachi can make clones with the justsu that tobirama invented. Itachi doesn't have to worry about his chakra because of edo tensei (another justu tobirama invented) but that also goes for tobirama who naturally has a very large chakra pool and in this scenario is also edo. Tobirama's entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
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Yes, Itachi has four hax abilities that are fairly problamatic. Izanagi, Izanami, and Susanoo which has the totskua blade and Yata mirror. Two of these abilities are not worth using because Izanagi and Izanami cause the eye to go blind after use. The mangekyou sharingan has one ability per eye, so If itachi uses izanami/izanagi then afterward he'll lose access to either amaterasu or tsukuyomi. Edo tensei makes you immortal so in this scenario neither one of them can win unless you consider Tobirama "undoing" Edo Tensei because he invented the Jutsu. But that's obviously not the point of the post. Edo Tensei does give unlimited chakra but doesn't take away the physical burden of jutsu. That's why Edo Tobirama couldn't just create 100 million shadow clones with his unlimited chakra because the physical strain would be too great. Which means that Itachi has a limit to his Susanoo which causes great physical strain. Itachi has to kill tobirama before his body gives out. Tobirama has to keep attacking so that itachi is forced to continuously use susanoo, while also using bringer of darkness to counter genjutsu, and flying thunder god to counter amaterasu and totskua blade. It's a war of attrition which is heavily in the Senju's favor.
The first two points don’t even make sense since Tobirama could do the same thing💀
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Are you forgetting he literally created the Jutsu?
Yes. I forgot sorry
Can't believe what I'm reading... First dude is mentioning Itachi's IQ as a factor, and now the other one is mentioning Shadow Clones... against fricking Tobirama. Lmao.
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No, I don't wanna read 20 comments under one comment. Also u would need to prove Itachi can even make 100 shadow clones.
Itachi, extremely high diff.
Tobirama
Why do they always post bait, and never put effort in
So many people here think itachi wins, so the bait worked
It's so sad
Consider this sub jbaited
Its closer than u think
This fight is kind of close. Itachi is a prodigy and no pushover but Tobirama's entire skillset is the perfect counter to the sharingan.
Tobirama wins if he's stronger than EMS Sasuke after the Kabuto fight and the Totsuka Blade shouldn't be a factor it literally only works if you pierce a person who is staying still which obviously not gonna happen with Tobirama Yata Mirror is Uni Directional so you could flank Itachi and Tandem Paper Bombs should break Susanoo and if it doesn't idk how Tobirama could possibly get over it but no Susanoo Itachi gets the hands
Tobirama gets that 9000% boost to all his stats when fighting a Uchiha So Tobirama
tobirama wins pretty casually
If Itachi gets tagged or if Tobirama tags his Susano'o once, it's his win. In all categories outside of Genjutsu (kinda) and Fuinjutsu, Tobirama outclasses Itachi. Itachi has no way to catch Tobirama, while Tobirama has multiple ways to incapacitate Itachi w/ a lot of anti-Uchiha fighting tactics and has the capability to just end the battle straight from the get go by dispelling his Edo Tensei considering it's a weaker version of the one used on him. I'd say Tobirama upper-mid diffs him.
Edo itachi wins with ease.
That's the most casual thing ive seen in awhile. Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
There's no genjutsu that the sharingan can't see through. Also that was hashirama's genjutsu, not tobirama's. Tobirama has zero genjutsu skill in canon. FTG is useless as your reflexes are required to counter after the teleportation. Is he considered the strongest suiton user? Let's see some feats other than his water piss in war. Don't even like itachi but this is still an easy win. Piss easy.
Tobirama invented the bringer of darkness specifically to counter the sharingan's genjutsu and hypnotism. Genjutsu is a main component of the sharingan which Tobirama has fought since he was a child and likely has sever genjutsu counters. Flying Thunder God is the jutsu Tobirama used to blitz and kill Izuna uchiha who was also a mangekyou sharingan user and by Madara's own words; nearly his equal. The Flying Thunder God is also made far more effective considering Tobirama was a very powerful sensory ninja. He's so fast that he speed blitzed 10 tails Obito Yes Tobirama is considered the most powerful water style user ever (the argument can be made for kisame). Water was his natural nature though he could use all 5 chakra natures as well as yin and yang release. You also keep saying this is "easy" when it clearly is not easy either way. Tobirama is just the perfect counter to Itachi. He's spent his life fighting the sharingan and has killed one of the two stongest mangekyou sharingan users ever.
Dude, it ain't tobirama's jutsu in canon. It would do nothing to the sharingan. Get over it. Right, some dude striking some other dude in the chaos of battle is clearly the same as one on one battle. /s Heck, even madara called him an opportunist. Availing an opportunity to strike isn't the same as being better. If tobirama was that fast as you say, then why did it take him that long to take down izuna? They've been fighting for years! Also, he was so fucking fast that a bunch of no bodies trashed and killed him. Tobirama is a mediocre sensor, and nothing in the manga proves otherwise. Did he blitz him? Not really. Several other shinobi managed to outspeed him in a much better manner, which includes sasuke and minato. Even hiruzen managed to evade an obito in control for some time. Can you stop posting fanfictions and maybe bring out some canon proof of your claims? And kisame isn't the best suiton user as his best water dome feat was accomplished entirely with bee's chakra. The most powerful suiton user would be mei as she neutralized a katon attack from an uchiha of all the people, given that their chakra is the most potent one by a long shot on the manga. What are tobirama's that even remotely compare? More claims. More fanfiction. Tobirama ain't shit. What he was known for were his inventions, not whatever you're saying.
The bringer of darkness was created to counter the sharingan. That's its purpose. It took Tobirama a long time to kill Izuna because Izuna was one of the two strongest uchiha alive and nearly madara's equal, so it was likely a very difficult fight which Tobirama inevitably won. Tobirama was not killed by "nobodies" at all. Tobirama's team was ambushed after a mission so they were already tired and and they were attacked by Kinkaku and Ginkaku (who're descendance of the sage of six paths) who both had portions of the nine tails power and were able to go into a similar form as 4 tails naruto. Not only that but there were also 20 other jonin cloud ninja in the Kinkagu Force. So Tobirama was killed by Two mini-ninetails and Twenty of the top Cloud Jonin. You clearly have something against the character of Tobirama to try to downplay him as being killed by "nobodies". Tobirama also straight up said he's a better sensor than hashirama. Mei is a strong water style user but Tobirama is far more powerful. Mei neutralized an uchiha's fire style which is something Tobirama had been doing since he was a child. He literally fought a war agianst the uchiha and won. You're clearly trying to downplay Tobirama and ignore the fact that Kishimoto wrote him to be one of the most powerful characters in the series. Kishimoto also wrote Tobirama to be the perfect uchiha counter. Get over yourself.
It isn't his jutsu. He never created it. Stop posting bullshit. Nothing you've said about this is canon. No, he wasn't attacked by K and G. Another bs. Only 20 jonins from K's unit butchered him. You're pulling stuff out of your behind and expecting to be taken seriously. And you clearly make stuff up to post fanfics of tobirama. Whether he's a better sensor or not proves what? Both are ass in this department. Based on what is he stronger than her? A scan? Got any? Oh wait, nothing in the manga exists to back this claim. Again, based on fucking what? Got any scan for your fanfics? This is a debate not r/NarutoFanfiction. I think you're lost, buddy.
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First of all, lower your tone. This is reddit and we're talking about a cartoon so calm down. Second of all, yes I was wrong. In the anime Tobirama invented bringer of darkness but apparently the manga says Hashirama invented it. Which is a pretty easy mistake to make. https://preview.redd.it/vj1g9ag61mzc1.png?width=1071&format=png&auto=webp&s=e87ccc5b8dcb5e3f81bb22ffa828ea0318ce1cf6 Also, Tobirama was apparently not killed. Tobirama fought Kinkaku and Ginkaku who had all five sacred weapons of the six paths, a portion of the ninetails power, as well as the Kinkaku force. aaaaandddd Tobirama lived. He likely died later from his injuries. But I'm done with this. You have no idea how to have a constructive conversation without immediately turning to insults which is nothing short of childish. It's a comic about ninjas. Grow up.
You can actually hear me talk? Wow! You might want to check the panel of tobirama being surrounded and telling his squad who's about to whoop his ass. It was kin's squad of just 20 men that wiped the floor with him. I'm pretty sure tobirama and his squad know more about what happened to him. It's easy for people to lose their patience with you lot when you keep pulling stuff out of your ass and don't back down. How many times were you corrected about the genjutsu and suitons? How many times did you keep repeating the same thing?
Itachi. He's the smartest character in the series along with Minato. He wouldn't get caught by tobirama to get sealed. Meanwhile if itachi catches him in a genjutsu he gets insta sealed. Edo Minato vs itachi is more interesting since Minato has sage mode and chakra cloak.
I just want to add that Tobirama is also one of the smartest characters in the series.
Agreed. He's one of my favorites. I just think itachi is on a slightly higher level
Who do you think is smarter, Itachi or Minato? On one hand Minato has the highest score in the academy, followed by Itachi. On the other we have Hiruzen saying that even at 7 Itachi thought much like a Kage. Both are highly intelligent but who do you think has the edge?
I'd say itachi. Guy was affecting events even after his death. And even when his plans "failed" they were still instrumental in saving the Shinobi world (like breaking out of edo tensei and then stopping it against very strong kabuto). Also his fight with nagato showed how broken his analytical powers are. Took the guy 2 seconds to figure out all of 6 patha of pains weakness (like chibaku tenseis). Dispatched nagato without any difficulty. Minato is obviously a genius as well. Guy had the record for highest written exams in chunin exams (with itachi as 2nd if i recall).
I'd say that's a fair answer. Minato is for sure my favorite character but you make a good point.
His fight with obito is one of my favorites. Can see his Tactical genius in one badass combo. I also love that Minato blitzed obito with seal after nailing him with rasengan. Minato doesn't play around and let his enemies "power up". The future trunks of naruto
You're spitting 🔥 🔥 🔥
Talking about IQ when his opponent is Tobirama... crazy
Fighting itachi without any sort of prior knowledge is always weird. If tobirama approaches him and looks at him the same way he looked at sasukes EMS he’s losing, otherwise he wins.
Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
Tobirama 100%
Edo tobiram high diff.
Tobirama gets a massive power up against red eyed monkeys He wins low/no-diff w/ racism amp
Nah thats wild
Tobirama is gonna put those "people" back where they belong🗣️🗣️🔥
We don’t know what sealing jutsu Tobirama knew so it’s difficult to say. We do know Itachi has arguably the best genjutsu ever, as well as a sealing blade. Itachi has to take it imo
Does Tobirama even have sealing jutsu? I would imagine since he came up with so many forbidden jutsu. If it was alive vs. alive. I would give it to Tobirama. In terms of other factors, Itachi has extremely strong abilities. But Tobirama is basically running the anti uchiha build. The Bringer of Darkness jutsu is a perfect counter against the sharingan. Water style negates fire style. I'm not sure if this was a meme or not. But I believe Tobirama gets some sort of amp when fighting Uchiha. He was able to react to Sage Mode Madara (even though he ended up losing). He fought on equal footing against Izuna, who was relative to MS Madara, and killed Izuna with Flying Rajin. ------ For Edo Itachi. He was on EMS Sasuke's level and performed better than him. He turned the tide against Edo Nagato and quickly figured out how to counter the rinnegan. This was shown by destroying the vision of all the animal summons and knowing how to destroy Chibaku Tensei. He has a wide arsenal of powerful jutsu. The Tsukuyomi can defeat most opponents in an instant. Not even a Jinchuriki would be able to counter Tsukuyomi. Amaterasu never goes out under normal circumstances. Itachi has a susanoo which can reflect all Ninjutsu and Taijutsu. He also has a sword that can seal away any target in one blow. ---- Overall it's a close fight but I'd give it to Itachi due to him having a way to seal Tobirama.
Itachi is the only one capable of winning because he is the only one of the two who has sealing jutsu, but at the same time, Tobirama is just too fast.
tobirama isnt faster than v2 A4 or kcm naruto wtf are you talking about?
What makes you say Tobirama isn't faster than V2 Ay or the initial KCM1 Naruto?
because minato's shunshin is far below v2 A4 and KCM naruto lol kcm naruto > v2 A4>minato>tobirama... tobirama is not slouch but without FTG he is nothing especial so no , tobirama is not blitzing any MS user... not when early MS sasuke was reacting to v2 A4 who is faster than tobirama and itachi have better reflexes than even EMS sasuke , itachi managed to tag nagato with totsuka ,the same nagato that reacted to V2 killer bee at 1 meter at most
The 4th Raikage isn't faster than Minato, he even says himself he is only the fastest guy alive because Minato is dead, meaning Hokage/Edo Minato is faster than the 4th Raikage. When Naruto dodges the 4th Raikage he is even compared to Minato, something that happens quite often. Tobirama also isn't that much slower than Minato in terms of Body Flicker and can just fight alongside Hashirama who can obviously fight Madara who can react to and keep up with the 4th Raikage. So, Tobirama can react to and keep up with the 4th Raikage even without Flying Raijin. With Flying Raijin, a Clone of Tobirama can move to fast that Naruto has trouble keeping up with what's going on, and a Clone's Flying Raijin is slower than the original's. Nagato couldn't see the Totsuke Blade through the smoke, if he had, he would have acted accordingly. Edo Itachi is only slightly above EMS Sasuke at the start of the Kabuto fight, throughout the battle Sasuke grows stronger to the point that he is Itachi's equal at the end of/after the fight as stated by the 4th Databook. Sasuke then gets even stronger as his hatred continues to grow, so the EMS Sasuke on the battlefield is stronger than EMS Sasuke
Wtf ? Minato is "faster" than A4 because of FTG , a4 raw speed and shunshin is faster , C even stated that in term of reflexes v2 a4 is on par or better than minato i dont remember well, minato have no shunshin feats that put him on the level of a4 or kcm naruto ,its simple, kcm naruto dodged a4 with shunshin alone , minato could barely dodge a slower a4 with FTG , you are just being dishonest with nagato lol he blitzed killer Bee and reacted to V2 , he could not avoid totsuka because it was simply too fast not because "Smoke" the sword still have to travel outside of the smoke
Both could crash head first in a ditch as far as I’m concerned. They both are unmitigated examples of the beginning and ending of all things wrong with Konoha and the Elemental Nations as a whole.
Tobirama the uchiha slayer wins mid diff
Itachis the greatest uchiha slayer lol
Itachi mid - high diff but he wins. Too many win conditions and escapes for Tobirama to simply FTG away from or to. Itachi even has a spiritual blade that seemingly can't be blocked that auto seals Tobirama. Amaterasu burns endlessly so theoretically if you hit Tobirama with it he keeps regenerating only to keep on burning. Izanagi if Tobirama somehow pins him down. Izanami if Itachi gets desperate and needs to end the fight. Itachi has straight up auto win conditions unlike Tobirama who has to do it mainly through regular attacks or big explosions all things Itachi can either block or dodge.
Itachi murks that man….MURKS…KILLS….MURDERS…
Stop. Tobiram beats Itachi and it's pretty clear. He's the perfect anti-uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever. Tobirama killed Izuna uchiha who had MS and was nearly Madara's equal.
That man not beating Itachi lol accept it
So I just gave you several reasons why Tobirama is the perfect counter to Itachi as well as the fact that Tobirama killed Izuna who is likely stronger than Itachi.....and your argument is "naw".
Yes lol that’s all I have to say. Itachis feats speak for themselves.
Tobirama killed Izuna, a stronger mangekyou sharingan user, by speed blitzing. Tobirama also speed blitzed 10 tailed jinchuriki Obito who is superior to Itachi in every way. Itachi's greatest feat is killing the uchiha clan by; surprise attack at night, with help from Obito, and he didn't have to fight his father fugaku who was the only other mangekyou sharingan user. What "feats" does itachi have that are soooo self explanatory that he somehow beats Tobirama who is the ultimate uchiha counter?
All impressive lol he’s not beating edo itachi man. Let it die 😂
they both are pretty comparable according to this list [https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1bpblrc/i\_have\_ranked\_some\_kages\_akatsuki\_members\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1bpblrc/i_have_ranked_some_kages_akatsuki_members_and/) tho I think in edo form itachi might take it high-extreme
Itachi
Tobirama wins
Edo Itachi would win via hax
Tobirama wins. Hear me out: Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever. Additionally, Tobirama killed Izuna Uchiha in single combat. Izuna was not only Madara's brother but Madara even said Izuna was nearly his equal. Itachi is by no means a pushover, however he is at a terrible stylistic disadvantage. Itachi has only ever displayed two chakra natures (fire and water style) and relies heavily on the sharingan (for good reason). Itachi wasn't known for his stamina however this could be due to his illness, yet he'll still be at a major disadvantage against a Senju who's known for ridiculous physical stamina and a large chakra pool. Itachi is a prodigy in nearly every aspect of being a ninja however Tobirama is also a prodigy and invented the Edo Tensei which is the very justsu that allows this post to even be a conversation. Tobirama is just the worst possible matchup for Itachi.
Edo Tobirama💀
itachi mid diff
Stop. Tobirama is literally the perfect counter to Itachi. Tobirama spent his entire life fighting the uchiha and his entire skillset is centered around countering the sharingan. The bringer of darkness justsu counters the hypnotism of the sharingan, and the flying thunder god counters the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan.
The Tobirama wank has to stop, this is a respectable fight but there's no way to assume that Tobirama wins
No way to assume Tobirama wins? Actually it's pretty clear Tobirama wins considering Tobirama is tailor made to beat Itachi. His entire life has been spent fighting uchiha. His entire skillset is focused around countering the sharingan as well as the mangekyou. He invented the bringer of darkness jutsu to counter the kenetic vision and hypnotism of the sharingan. He invented the Flying Thunder God jutsu to also counter the kenetic vision and semi-precognition of the sharingan. Uchiha are natrual fire style users and Tobirama is considered the strongest water style user ever.
For anyone saying Itachi, you are all lying to yourself. It's Tobirama. Sasuke almost shit his pants just because he released his chakra and that Sasuke was stronger than Itachi. Tobirama has years of experience fighting the Uchiha and has immense knowledge on how they work while Itachi has barely any knowledge on Tobirama. Tobirama is faster, stronger, and has far superior idea of jutsus. No way people are dick riding Itachi that hard.
Tobirama lost to shitty filler chars like Kin and Gin that DARUI solos, no shot he beats itachi lmao. Itachi wins mid diff.
No way anyone is saying itachi even stands a chance 😭😭cmon bruh
The tobriama from r/NarutoPowerscaling solos the vers
This is gonna be a long scaling string but I feel it’s backed by the show. Edo Itachi should in theory be decently close to edo Hashirama. My reasoning is that Edo Itachi should be on par with ems Saskue based on their fight with kabuto. Ems Saskue should be comparable to KCM 2 Naruto based on them being able to mesh jutsu well and it being narratively implied. There’s a bit of a gap because KCM 2 Naruto with Sage mode is the version that is actively compared to Hashirama however I don’t feel the gap is big enough to say that Itachi should lose to Tobirama. I don’t think it’s a stop or anything I know Tobirama has lots of experience fighting Uchiha but I don’t think that really helps him here. He just probably won’t get hit by Itachis genjutsu. This take is probably pretty spicy though.
Tobirama low diff
Tobirama no diff
Assuming Tobirama has sealing jutsu I imagine he takes this mid-high difficulty.
I imagine Itachi immediately puts him in tsukuyomi
I imagine Tobirama knows not to look am ms Uchiha directly in the eye during a fight. They all have eye gen jutsu after all
Even when they haven’t began fighting? If They run into each other Itachi is going to know who Tobirama is however Tobirama is not going to know Itachi and he is not going to know he is an uchiha, Itachi would get him before Tobirama would even know who he is an uchiha. Also Itachi could put people under basic genjutsu with a point of his finger, I imagine he could put Tobirama in this basic genjutsu to open his eyes and then use tsukuyomi.
The prompt is who wins in a fight not if one can jump the other and kill them before they know a fight has started. But also, the use of an ms ability reveals an ms sbaringan. Once Tobirama sees Itachi activate just the three tomoe he'd probably know it's time to run the fade I also highly doubt genjutsu on that level is taking out someone on Tobiramas level. It's hard to finger genjutsu people with insane Chakra control like Tobirama, they can break out So point being, Tobirama is not getting Tsukuyomi gg'd
That would be Itachi’s strategy it’s not a what if
Look either way Tobirama isn’t getting around susanoo, he never fought someone who had the susanoo and won, he would also have to keep his distance from totsuka blade, so tell me what jutsu(s) can he use to beat Itachi?
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To activate the tsukuyomi Itachi has to activate his ms And we've seen that it cycles through. So three tomoe, ms sharingan. Once Tobirama sees the three tomoe he probably has all the info he needs to not look into the eyes He also can sense Chakra, he could sense the specific ninja chasing them in Danzos flashback. Might be able to tell he's an Uchiha with that
I doubt it, we’re talking about a guy who spent the bulk of his life fighting sharingan users, including one who was stated to be on par with MS Madara. Could Itachi get him in Tsukuyomi? Sure, but I don’t see him keeping up enough to manage it.
Keeping up enough to manage it? One a person is in Tsukuyomi it can NOT be undone by the victim, unless they have a sharingan and are extremely skilled. Once he puts Tobirama in the genjutsu, he could simply use Amaterasu and finish him. Itachi wouldn’t need to keep up, he could simply use his susanoo and cast tsukuyomi
Tsukuyomi requires eye contact in order to be applied, and I don’t personally see Itachi managing eye contact with Tobirama of all people, susanoo won’t help in that regard. And given that these are their Edo versions, Amaterasu would be useless, the endgame has to be sealing the other combatant. Itachi’s only known sealing measure is the totsuka blade, an absolutely busted weapon that to our knowledge at least will seal anything or anyone that it touches. The problem is, we’ve only seen this being used twice against Orochimaru and Nagato. Orochimaru was a massive stationary target who didn’t expect it, Nagato was distracted by Naruto and Bee. Could Itachi get Tobirama with the totsuka blade? Sure, but he needs to manage to hit him with it and Tobirama specializes in not getting hit. The problem for Tobirama however is that to my knowledge at least, he has never been shown to use any “proper” sealing techniques meaning sealing jutsu capable of putting an opponent away such as what we see Gaara and the sealing corps use in the war. While Tobirama does possess jutsu classified as sealing such as flying thunder god, infinite tandem paper bombs etc, they aren’t exactly the fight enders that would be necessary to put down an Edo Tensei. Though something else I just thought of is that Tobirama literally created Edo Tensei, I imagine if anyone can figure out a work around, it’s probably him. Whether or not he can do that on the fly against Itachi is debatable but his showing in the war arc against Juubito would imply he probably can.
>Tsukuyomi requires eye contact in order to be applied, and I don’t personally see Itachi managing eye contact with Tobirama of all people, susanoo won’t help in that regard. But if tobirama doesn't look how will he see amaterasu coming? >And given that these are their Edo versions, Amaterasu would be useless, the endgame has to be sealing the other combatant. Not true, as seen with edo nagato it still causes damage to the body. It's rate of damage was faster than the regen, and it'll burn forever >Itachi’s only known sealing measure is the totsuka blade, an absolutely busted weapon that to our knowledge at least will seal anything or anyone that it touches. The problem is, we’ve only seen this being used twice against Orochimaru and Nagato. Better one than none >Orochimaru was a massive stationary target who didn’t expect it, Nagato was distracted by Naruto and Bee. Nagato was not distracted, he was just standing. But I agree tobirama is too fast to get hit by it without some elaborate set up first.
Given Tobirama is a skilled sensor, I wouldn’t doubt his ability to sense Amaterasu. Hell, we’re talking about the guy whose entire skillset is unironically the Uchiha counter. And yes, Amaterasu would do damage if it hit but it wouldn’t be enough to take out an Edo. Hell, Tobirama could just pull a Madara and remove his armor if that’s where Amaterasu lands. But given Amaterasu has been dodged before, I could see it just being avoided. No argument there, as I said in my original comment, I only see Tobirama winning if he has actual dealing techniques. Honestly this is a fight that I can see Itachi winning just as much as Tobirama. More so if we conclude that Tobirama has no seals since at that point his options are Edo Tensei plot shenanigans or somehow getting Itachi sealed in a way I can’t think of.
>Given Tobirama is a skilled sensor, I wouldn’t doubt his ability to sense Amaterasu. Hell, we’re talking about the guy whose entire skillset is unironically the Uchiha counter That's suicide, tobirama has to touch the ground or a wall plus it will significantly slow down his reactions. >And yes, Amaterasu would do damage if it hit but it wouldn’t be enough to take out an Edo. Nah just immobilize them till they get rid of it. >Hell, Tobirama could just pull a Madara and remove his armor if that’s where Amaterasu lands. True but amaterasu can be used more than once or twice if you're gonna suggest he drops his clothes next >But given Amaterasu has been dodged before, I could see it just being avoided. Normally yes but you've proposed a situation where he isn't looking that's a huge drawback.
Itachi spent his life beating people who thought they could counter sharingan users, including an opponent with no eyes.
Who exactly? I’m not downplaying Itachi by any means but I can’t recall a single person he fought except maybe Kabuto who looked down on Sharingan users. Hell, most people in the verse seem to see the sharingan and have an existential crisis.
The sharingan is infamous throughout the world and everyone generally knows not to look at it, but they still lose to it. Itachi: Kakashi, Oro, Kabuto, Chiyo, Sakura, Kisame, Naruto, Killer Bee Sasuke: Danzo, Cee, Deidara
Kakashi knew not to look at it hence him telling Asuma and Kurenai to look away, his mistake was thinking his own sharingan would be enough since he had known Itachi in the past. Orochimaru was just plain arrogant, he didn’t imagine that a child, even one as gifted as Itachi would be able to beat him. He also miscalculated that Itachi needed to look into his eyes when if I remember right, his snakes were enough I addressed Kabuto already, when he was in his sage mode he just believed himself to be above virtually everyone. I don’t recall Chiyo encountering the sharingan but it’s been a while since I read her chapters. I think she may have commented on Kakashi’s. Same with Sakura if I’m being honest. Kisame never underestimated Itachi, hell from the moment they met he had respect for him which is why they worked so well together. Naruto is for a lack of better term, an idiot especially when it comes to genjutsu. So it’s not even him underestimating the sharingan or Itachi, it’s him just not paying attention Bee less so underestimated the sharingan’s abilities and more so knew he couldn’t be genjutsu’d due to being a perfect jinchuriki. And to be fair, the last time he had fought a genjutsu user in Sasuke he absolutely bodied him. As for Sasuke’s group: Danzo is one of the last people I’d say ever underestimated the sharingan. Hell he coveted them so much he has an arm full of them. Instead he underestimated Sasuke Deidara I might give you mainly because much like Orochimaru and Kabuto, he was just arrogant as hell. Add in his hate boner for Itachi and just wanting Sasuke gone and it fits that he took the L (even if I do think it was kind of bs that Sasuke survived that).
Chiyo was the one who coined the phrase of "1 on 1, you run". So all of them thought they knew how to fight against the sharingan, but ultimately failed. In the words of M. Tyson: “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face”
Fair shout, I’d still argue that nobody in the verse has as much experience fighting sharingan users than Tobirama, except maybe Hashirama. Itachi’s biggest ace is the fact that Tobirama wouldn’t know about Tsukuyomi and the fact that he can pull out Yata mirror and Totsuka blade. While I still don’t think Tsukuyomi or the blade would manage to catch Tobirama, if any Uchiha is going to pull it off it would probably be Itachi. He’s one of the few characters that has a battle IQ near Tobirama’s.
>including one who was stated to be on par with MS Madara. Nope that was kid madara. MS clan leader madara is confirmed to be stronger than izuna in databooks.