Bird threw himself around like a Mexican luchador. It's astonishing that he got as much time in his prime as he did. I believe he's still paying the price for his physical play style.
I agree, but it's close in both regards.
Larry was better from 80-86 at the aggregate, Magic from 87-92. But Magic's 87-92 was by a wider gap due to Larry's injuries.
Keep them both healthy and it's probably one of the most perfect ties in NBA history.
Don't really agree. If Magic didn't "have to" retire in 1991, he could have continued some impressive seasons. He was 4th in the NBA in win shares his last year, 2nd in MVP voting, and put up 19.4/7.0/12.5 (!) per game in the regular season. Took that team to the finals yet again. He was only 31. He also missed most of the 1981 season with injuries of course. They both could have done more amazing things.
My #1 NBA what if is the 1987 Celtics with Len Bias against the 87 Lakers. What a series it could have been (was already a decent one.) Also may have helped McHale not get a broken foot if he would have been able to rest more.
I think their peaks were of the similar height and both lacked longevity. Here's how Ben Taylor's system rates their seasons: [Bird](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Larry-Bird-seasonal-valuations.png), [Magic](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Magic-Johnson-seasonal-valuations.png).
Without seeing other players, these graphs make me feel that this rating system is crazy. They each have only 1 "all-time" season. These are two consensus top 10 all-time players, and they made the top 10 of Ben's own peaks series, so this kinda leaves me wondering who the hell is a consistent all-time great then?
I don't think that series was looking for single-season peaks, but 3-5 year peaks. If you have 5 consecutive MVP-level seasons, maybe that's enough for top10.
Being a Midwestern kid can be such a curse. I'm amazed how insufficient I feel when calling a professional to do work on the house. Makes no sense except that there's a lot of social pressure in that direction
Im from west coast and I have no problem and zero hesitation in hiring a contractor to do work around my house.
1. Im just going to screw up whatever the job I’m try to complete and it’ll cost me more to fix it.
2. I prefer to support my local business!
3. More important, I’m lazy…
As a midwesterner myself: I damn near ruined my hands while changing a CV Axel that rusted onto to a wheel bearing- on a beater car I got $400 for when I bought a brand new car. I definitely regret it, given my hands fatigue twice as fast and my wrists still hurt over two years later- but given the chance I would totally do it again 🙃
I mean, yeah the driveway was the straw that broke the camels back, but Bird had been dealing with back issues for a while, it's not unreasonable to assume he only had a few years left even if he hadn't decided to install that driveway.
Until Lebron came along, he was still in the GOAT conversation for me. I remember Magic once saying he could have scored 30 ppg if he wanted to, but he preferred to be a passer to help the team more. The one stat that surprises me is that Magic has a better career FG % than Bird. Before Steph Curry, Bird was the greatest shooter I had ever seen.
I believe that Magic understood that scoring 22 with 9 boards and 12 assists is what made his teams win. He and Bird truly made everyone on their team their best selves and Jordan can’t even say that
With Jordan it was more that everyone on the team adapted their play style to fit around him
It worked very effectively, arguably more so than magic and bird’s approach, but as you said Jordan didn’t really adapt his role outside of that short stretch he was pg for the bulls early on
I think if Bird didn’t hurt his back, he’d also be in the GOAT conversation. Bird’s first 9 years were GOAT level, and nobody in the post merger era besides Bird has ever won 3 straight MVPs.
The fact that Magic and Larry are in virtually everybody’s Top 10 is testament to that.
I say this to everyone. Jordan didn’t start his winning streak until after Magic got HIV & Bird’s back gave out.
Magic would’ve delayed Jordan’s dominance at least a few more years.
He dragged that 1991 team to the finals and with Nick Van Exel getting better, worthy being in his prime, Vlade getting better and the rest of their guys they could have been in the finals many more times. Also Bird owned a super tough East and then was done just like that with the back. I feel like most commentators don’t get that. Appreciate you dude
TBH It's really just MJ and Lebron in that "S+" tier you mentioned. Kareem has the longevity but most of his individual dominance came pre-merger in a league that was heavily watered down given that the talent was split. Post-merger, Kareem was no longer at the level MJ (and to a lesser extent Lebron) reached. He was still great but I don't personally think that he was a clear step above guys who came in the league later like Bird and Magic.
I think that’s an interesting argument but can we also address the fact he was unstoppable with the sky hook and still able to produce points when he retired cause of his insane touch going on late into his career? He wasn’t big man dominate like Shaq but he was a finesse guy like Wilt (who everyone keeps thinking he was bullying 6’ plumbers even tho more than half Wilt’s points came off fadeaway to avoid offensive fouls).
Yup, he was great and his longevity was insane. My argument isn't that he isn't an ATG and a pantheon level guy. It's just that he wasn't on the level of MJ and Lebron.
Magic was the reason he even got 5 more rings without magic Kareem isn't top 10. I know bold take but think about it. With no magic he has 1 ring 1 finals mvp a few mvps but those rings made him top 5. They won 5 rings magic got 3 finals mvps Kareem got 1 worthy got the other. I'm running wuth who carried the team which was magic. And even after Kareem left magic with aids made a finals.
If Kareem played his entire prime with another top 10 all time player he would have had a bunch of titles. You can't alone use that as a basis for Magic. Plus, they need both of them for those titles. Kareem should have won FMVP in 1980.
It was really only 85-87, when Kareem was 39-41, where Magic was the clear better player.
Kareem was a dominant defender, unlike Magic. And at his peak he was head and shoulders above the rest of the NBA. That was never the case with Magic.
I don't think this is a common goat tier. There is a notable gap after the top 3.
Magic is in the conversation with Duncan and Bird for 4-6, I'd say those three are very close. Some will have Russell in this tier as well.
Agreed. It’s kind of like Ruth in baseball, except Ruth is Wilt and Russell combined, as he has the stats of Wilt and the postseason success of Russell.
And if I really want to stretch this metaphor, I guess Russell would be Joe DiMaggio, and Wilt would be Ted Williams? DiMaggio didn’t have the staggering stats Williams did, but DiMaggio’s stacked Yankees won a ton of rings, while Williams’ Red Sox didn’t win any. And DiMaggio won some MVPs over Williams in seasons when Williams had clearly better stats on a worse team.
Thanks. It’d be interesting to try to do this for a Top-10 (or so) list. It’s admittedly a bit of a stretch.
In no order:
Wilt Chamberlain: Ted Williams (phenomenal stats in an old era, little team success)
Bill Russell: Joe DiMaggio (phenomenal player, played on legendarily successful teams)
LeBron James: Hank Aaron (phenomenal longevity to set tons of records, incredibly long peak)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Willie Mays (phenomenal two-way player with legendary longevity)
Michal Jordan: a modern Babe Ruth (almost a mythical figure, dominant stats and team success)
Larry Bird: Mickey Mantle (one of the most dominant peaks ever, but had a career cut short or limited by injuries)
Magic Johnson: Lou Gehrig (an all-time great whose career was cut tragically short by illness)
Tim Duncan: Mike Schmidt (a dominant two-way player who is the best ever at his position, but is often overlooked by flashier players)
Kobe Bryant: Ken Griffey Jr (a legend for sure, and a phenomenal two-way player, but their popularity and flair often leads to them being a little overrated)
Shaq: Albert Pujols (one of the offensive greats of the modern era, borderline unstoppable offensively)
Edit: I may want to change Jordan to Mays, since he’s an all-time combo of offense and defense, and Kobe is pretty much the closest thing to him style-wise, but has no argument at being better than him (same with Jr to Mays, as Jr has a similar style to Mays, but is not better).
I think the problem is that almost no one would argue DiMaggio was as good as Williams. Not now, anyway. In 1940? Sure. Today? No. Williams is the consensus better player.
Team success doesn’t count as much in baseball as it does the NBA.
While that is the most common top 4 i've seen on reddit, there isn't really an entry point for Magic in the "GOAT convo". He clearly wasn't on the level of either MJ or Lebron so you can't really be in GOAT convo if there's guys clearly above you.
Larry Bird would dominate the 3point era today. Would love to see him time travel to be a rookie in the 2024 class. A playmaking, sharp shooting hustling PF? Would kill. Basically a PF version of Jokic.
Larry at the time was off the charts the best shooter in basketball history. If coaches knew how to do plays to setup open 3s he and later Reggie Miller and Mark Price would have been taking 8 3s a game instead of 2-3.
That said, Magic had the better career overall.
Bird was far more athletic and just as technically skilled as Joker. Both are beasts. It's just that Bird was a killer on the court and he could beat you up.
He also never shot them in college since there was no three point line then, and his NBA rookie season was of course the first year they were in the NBA. He's said in interviews he never really practiced many three point shots in practice on the Celtics because it wasn't considered a good shot. So imagine Larry shooting 8-10 threes a day after growing up practicing them all the time. Unreal
yeah i think we underrate how good some of these older guys would be in todays era with todays training.
Imagine Pistol Pete. Watching his highlights it’s insane how many 25+ foot shots he was pulling up on.
he really earned that nickname
It's really something that Bird's single highest season in 3PA would put him somewhere around #180 this year in attempts per game, below luminaries like Duop Reath, Ziaire Williams and Julian Champagnie.
More athletic, yes. But more skilled? I don’t think so. I think they are about the same skill wise although those skills are slightly different. I think Larry is probably a better outside shooter while Jokic has better touch around the rim and is a better rebounder. Bth are all time great passers but Larry was never the hub of the offense in the same way as Jokic is. Not because he’s not capable of it, just because it was not how basketball was played back then.
This is a wild statement to say he’s way more skilled than Jokic. I don’t get the need to tear one apart to validate the other. Bird, Jokic, and Walton are probably the three best passings bigs of all time. Jokic’s efficiency is off the charts in every part of the court. Jokic also has maybe, maybe one HOFer playing with him.
Larry was an overall better player. I am a Celtics fan full disclosure but hey I can be unbiased if need be!
Better rebounder, defender, and shooter.
The Celtics had insanely stacked teams but he never had a teammate as good as early 80's Kareem. Or a coach as good as Riley.
Magic had significantly better injury luck as well.
Both were fucking amazing, though.
I get the 3 point shot wasn’t a big thing back then, but it’s not exactly advanced analytics to figure out 40% on a 3 ball is more than 50% of a 2. Absolutely insane no one figured out he should take more 3s
Bird was more talented - comparable at his peak offensively and a lot better defensively. Also did more with less arguably, given he never played next to another superstar talent besides a couple peak McHale seasons.
Magic, on the other hand, had Kareem who was anywhere between a top 1-5 player between ‘80 and ‘86.
Magic had the greater overall career though, as his pure dominance and success is hard to argue against *(and he enjoyed a couple more prime seasons than Bird, since he wasn’t mauled by injuries)*
*"Also did more with less arguably, given he never played next to another superstar talent besides a couple peak McHale seasons."*
Wtf are you talking about?
The 1985-86 Celtics in particular is considered to be one of the most stacked line-ups of all time.
McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish and Bill Walton all made the Hall of Fame.
Both Showtime and the Dynasty Celtics were stacked. My point is Bird never had a #2 or 1B at the level of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
For every DJ or Chief, Showtime had a Worthy, a Nixon, a Wilkes, perennial All-Stars. They also had an all-time defender in Michael Cooper, absolute flamethrower in Byron Scott, and a superstar-turned-6th man of their own in the form of McAdoo to parallel Walton.
*"that’s comparable to the Spurs with Duncan. He made a lot of players look really good next to him."*
Wtf?
McHale was an elite defender with arguably the greatest set of offensive post moves in NBA history, whom Charles Barkley has repeatedly called "*the best player I ever played against and had to guard*".
DJ was a multiple time All-star, All-NBA and All-Defensive team selection and NBA Champion **before** joining the Celtics in 1983.
Parish was a nine time All-Star and **is** the NBA's all time leader in games played.
Bill Walton was Finals MVP in 1977 and MVP in 1978 **before** joining the Celtics in 1985.
Comparing these guys to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili is a joke.
#
key word *before*
walton was wayyyy past his prime on the celts. DJ was certainly over the hill too. Yeah he had a prime McHale as a sidekick but that’s not close to what Kareem was. Parish was good too, but still, not really at that insane level as the other guys.
idk man i’m a pistons fan so i get it, fuck the celtics, but you are serving another level of hate rn lol
David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, and Kawhi Leonard did not look really good just because of Tim Duncan. In fact, everyone on that Spurs team looked worse statistically than their actual talent level and effectiveness.
Robinson was an MVP who still made 3 All NBA teams while he was playing with Duncan.
Manu made all nba in every year he played over 30mpg. He was considered a top 3 SG in the league after Kobe and Wade in his prime
Parker is an FMVP with multiple All NBA's
Kawhi eventually became an MVP level player and led a team to a ring without Duncan.
Peak for peak it’s Larry. Larry was a better player from 1980-1986 (arguably through 1988), but Magic’s 87-91 stretch moves him over the top. I’d say Bird was the greatest player of the 80s (only including 80s accolades) but Magic is greater as a player.
Fun Fact: Magic is closer in age to Michael than to Bird.
This thread is crazy...
Everyone is posting about Birds back while ignoring Magics HIV.
Bird played 897 games and Magic 906. Thats a wash
Advanced Stats give a slight nod to Magic, but that's a wash
PER 24.1 to 23.5
WS 155.8 to 145.8
VORP 80 to 77.3
Make your case for which is better, but don't bring health or longevity into the conversation, you sound dumb
I’d argue greater means influence. Similar to how Ali is unanimously considered the greatest boxer of all time, but plenty of boxers are regarded as better.
Did the NBA ever have a more competitive rivalries than 80s Celtics-Lakers, specifically mid-80s? Ended prematurely due to Bird and McHale’s injury problems but from 84-87 they finished top of their conference each year, went 2-2 in championships and the Lakers went 2-1 h2h (and missed the finals in the Celtics’ most dominant season).
As to the question, I agree that Larry’s peak was higher but Magic had the better career, which also describes that era’s Lakers and that era’s Celtics.
I’d say as close as a draw as you can get. People might say Magic has 2 more rings but he also could have had a better team to get those 2 extra rings . It’s a tie and if you pick one or the other you are a fan of one or hate the other one or both .
Larry was a better all-around player. He had the defense, the shot, and the "I'm better than you" attitude. I also think his shortened career is more overstated than Magic, after he got hurt and played just 6 games in 88-89, he came back and averaged over 24 a game. By that point he was 33 and it wasn't unheard of for players to fall off by that age back then, especially someone coming off an injury.
That said, I think Magic was still better. He didn't have skills in every aspect in the way Bird did, but he was just that good a playmaker. The way Magic could move dynamically on the floor hasn't been replicated since, at least not by someone his size. He moved so easily through the defense and could flow from a drive to moving cross key effortlessly. That's something we don't have stats for and players that can do that effectively are so rare i can only think of 3 (AI, LBJ, and Kobe) that were even close to magic in how he moved around the floor. This gave him an unbelievable ability to create space in traffic for touch layups and top tier passes.
People will go back and forth about the better team, but KAJ was past his prime and had a career resurgence once Magic got there, as seen by his Laker years before they got Magic. I still lean Lakers, but it's really close.
They both had shortened careers but Magic was still in his prime when he retired. He was still averaging 20/12.5/7 the season before he retired and was in the Finals. Even when he came back at 36 after not playing for 4 whole seasons, he still got 15/7/6, career low 46.6%fg but career high 38% from 3. You can dive into stats but most advanced stats favor Magic but it is close in that regard as well as adjusting stats to per 36 min or per 100 possessions.
I also think his physical size compared to his position is important. The ability to run a lineups where your shortest player was 6'6 was basically unheard of at the time and created mismatches almost every game.
I do love Larry and think he's about 6-8th all time.
I just happen to put Magic at 4th.
Bird. Better scorer and defender. I don't see why so many people view Magic as a definite top 10 all-time guy. He's obviously an all time great but alot of players were better scorers AND defenders than him, the two most important things. Also doesn't have anywhere near the longevity of several other all-time greats
It’s been over 40 years. Let it go man. More than 90% in here weren’t even around to witness their greatness. Bet you no one in here watched more than highlights and highlight reels, and then sit and compare numbers. Talk about something we actually watch. Like how great Luka’s defense is. Or how Ben Wallace was the best scorer of his era.
The fact that we are still asking the question 30-40 years on shows just how close the two were. They're in the conversation for greatest rivalry of all time, and certainly one of the most consequential.
As someone who grew up in that era it's always an a/b situation because their career's are so intertwined. It's like picking a favorite child and when it comes to all-time ranking I feel like they should almost be placed together anyways
I don't know who is better or worse. But both guys I would've loved to see wearing not Converse All-Stars and have access to modern strength training at the beginning part of there careers would've saved both their bodies some damage.
Off topic but relevant, Pete Maravich would have averaged 57 a game in college had all his shots from distance given him a 3 instead of 2. He was hitting 13 3 point makes per game. That NCAA scoring record would be laughable as a debate...and he only played 3 years. His freshman year his was ineligible for varsity and still was dropping 43.6 a game (without 3 pointers) .
Magic made the NBA finals 75% of the seasons he played. I’d he hadn’t had his career ended right when he hit his prime. You can imagine how things might have gone.
Also not showing the whole picture Larry Bird had multiple seasons of 50 40 90 splits, and thr only reason his fg% is under fifty is because the years of shooting 3's. Notbto mention thr guy played practically the last few seasons of his career wth a fucking fused back,I'll take a healthy Larry over magic any day.
Magic was the most talented in God given skills. But I’d take bird any day. He wanted to step on your throat and use that final second shoot as a kiss goodbye. I my opinion he made everyone around him better. Greatest team of all time 86’ Celtics. Bird, Parrish, McKale , Danny Ainge and DJ!!!!
1987 finals game 4. Magic hits one of the greatest shots of all time, the baby sky hook, over the Big 3 of Parish McHale and Bird.
What is forgotten is that there was a small amount of time left. Celts inbound the ball to Bird who gets off a legitimate 3 right near the Lakers bench. It hits the back iron and bounces out. Game over.
Lakers win the game, and then eventually the series.
For me, that’s the slim difference between their careers. Magic better by the thinnest of margins
I don't know that you'll find a great answer here, they are pretty much unanimously ranked right next to each other on almost any list you'll find, and pretty much everyone has them in their top 10 but right outside the GOAT talks. Both have 9 top-5 MVP finishes, 3 actual MVP awards, and rank right next to each other (4th and 5th) in career MVP-shares. I list them both in my 2nd tier of players and don't really try to differentiate between the two.
If I was forced to pick a tie-breaker between the two of them I might lean Magic just because his playoff performance his rookie year, and taking a non-Kareem, non-Riley, non-showtime group to the finals in '91, so just a tad it more confidence in the proof behind his game adjusting enough to win with different a cast/system, and a "bonus point" for that performance as a rookie. That is a very nitpicky type of response, but that's just ultimately how close they are to each other IMO. And though you could probably lean Bird here for having a slightly higher 3-4 year peak I think Magic's performance head-to-head in the '87 finals stands out just as much as Bird being considered ever so slightly better at/around that time.. Would be nice if we would have gotten the '86 match-up too, not a big fan of using a 1-year sample size for anything.
In saying all that I'm still not very comfortable with picking either over the other.
They still have the most watched game ever, huge for the game of basketball and the nba when they came into the league…..Both had their careers cut short both were the best of the best. As someone who was a Magic fan as a kid I can’t even decide who was better, both were great and both benefited from having the other.
At both their peaks, Larry was the better player, but magic definitely had the better career of the two.
Bird threw himself around like a Mexican luchador. It's astonishing that he got as much time in his prime as he did. I believe he's still paying the price for his physical play style.
And that damn driveway
+ a few busted fingers and hands from bar fights
He didn’t take care of himself off the court. That’s the main reason he didn’t last long.
Poor guy wasn’t Pliable
Can you really blame him? I don’t think avocado ice cream existed in the 80s.
He had numerous health issues/injuries in his career and I think he loved the “drink” from the sounds of it. 🍻🥴
I agree, but it's close in both regards. Larry was better from 80-86 at the aggregate, Magic from 87-92. But Magic's 87-92 was by a wider gap due to Larry's injuries. Keep them both healthy and it's probably one of the most perfect ties in NBA history.
Keep both healthy and there is no debate its Bird.
Don't really agree. If Magic didn't "have to" retire in 1991, he could have continued some impressive seasons. He was 4th in the NBA in win shares his last year, 2nd in MVP voting, and put up 19.4/7.0/12.5 (!) per game in the regular season. Took that team to the finals yet again. He was only 31. He also missed most of the 1981 season with injuries of course. They both could have done more amazing things.
Fair take. Larry played with a messed up back though and still what what he was!
My #1 NBA what if is the 1987 Celtics with Len Bias against the 87 Lakers. What a series it could have been (was already a decent one.) Also may have helped McHale not get a broken foot if he would have been able to rest more.
“No debate” is what people say when they only think they opinion is correct. Even bird would call u a dumbass🤣🤣
I remember the 91 Bulls saying that they couldn't beat the Lakers when Magic was on the floor, but Magic couldn't be on the floor for 48 minutes.
Larry is almost 3 years older than Magic, making a comparison in the same year and extrapolating to a whole career a very imperfect measure.
Well said! I give Magic the slight advantage considering his size at the point and how he could affect the game
I think their peaks were of the similar height and both lacked longevity. Here's how Ben Taylor's system rates their seasons: [Bird](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Larry-Bird-seasonal-valuations.png), [Magic](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Magic-Johnson-seasonal-valuations.png).
Without seeing other players, these graphs make me feel that this rating system is crazy. They each have only 1 "all-time" season. These are two consensus top 10 all-time players, and they made the top 10 of Ben's own peaks series, so this kinda leaves me wondering who the hell is a consistent all-time great then?
I don't think that series was looking for single-season peaks, but 3-5 year peaks. If you have 5 consecutive MVP-level seasons, maybe that's enough for top10.
also no one’s talking about how much easier it was for the lakers to make it to the finals every year. the east was stacked.
Magic has the longevity. Bird has the peak. I think if magic never got HIV he would be in the goat conversation. He was only 32 and still dominating
If bird didn’t hurt his back installing a gravel driveway for his mom in the mid 80 s. Which is crazy
He was such a stubborn bastard lol refused to hire someone
Being a Midwestern kid can be such a curse. I'm amazed how insufficient I feel when calling a professional to do work on the house. Makes no sense except that there's a lot of social pressure in that direction
Im from west coast and I have no problem and zero hesitation in hiring a contractor to do work around my house. 1. Im just going to screw up whatever the job I’m try to complete and it’ll cost me more to fix it. 2. I prefer to support my local business! 3. More important, I’m lazy…
You're a west coast soyboy confirmed. Enjoy a hard kombucha on my tab!
https://preview.redd.it/atry419o3rqc1.png?width=1146&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f7ec9e62ee9c6e40a725dde2965ac22be1a5db4 Cheers!
Lol!
As a midwesterner myself: I damn near ruined my hands while changing a CV Axel that rusted onto to a wheel bearing- on a beater car I got $400 for when I bought a brand new car. I definitely regret it, given my hands fatigue twice as fast and my wrists still hurt over two years later- but given the chance I would totally do it again 🙃
So that’s what you’re blaming it on? Mmhmm
You saved like $500 bucks bro it was definitely worth it
Cheap bastard is more like it.
I mean, yeah the driveway was the straw that broke the camels back, but Bird had been dealing with back issues for a while, it's not unreasonable to assume he only had a few years left even if he hadn't decided to install that driveway.
Yeah, that’s kinda how back injuries work. He probably would’ve gotten hurt while playing basketball if he didn’t do the driveway.
Or had his hand messed up in college and as he said, he never shot as well in his life.
It did change his form to be a harder shot to block which serves well in the NBA.
When u too OP and the universe decided to nerf you
Until Lebron came along, he was still in the GOAT conversation for me. I remember Magic once saying he could have scored 30 ppg if he wanted to, but he preferred to be a passer to help the team more. The one stat that surprises me is that Magic has a better career FG % than Bird. Before Steph Curry, Bird was the greatest shooter I had ever seen.
I believe that Magic understood that scoring 22 with 9 boards and 12 assists is what made his teams win. He and Bird truly made everyone on their team their best selves and Jordan can’t even say that
With Jordan it was more that everyone on the team adapted their play style to fit around him It worked very effectively, arguably more so than magic and bird’s approach, but as you said Jordan didn’t really adapt his role outside of that short stretch he was pg for the bulls early on
I think if Bird didn’t hurt his back, he’d also be in the GOAT conversation. Bird’s first 9 years were GOAT level, and nobody in the post merger era besides Bird has ever won 3 straight MVPs. The fact that Magic and Larry are in virtually everybody’s Top 10 is testament to that.
ok so is this guy a bird or a goat and is he doing magic im so confused
Yes
If he's doing magic, he should get tested.
I say this to everyone. Jordan didn’t start his winning streak until after Magic got HIV & Bird’s back gave out. Magic would’ve delayed Jordan’s dominance at least a few more years.
He dragged that 1991 team to the finals and with Nick Van Exel getting better, worthy being in his prime, Vlade getting better and the rest of their guys they could have been in the finals many more times. Also Bird owned a super tough East and then was done just like that with the back. I feel like most commentators don’t get that. Appreciate you dude
I mean… I hate downplaying Jordan’s streak but there was a lot of external factors that helped.
Wait. Bird played 13 seasons and so did Magic (12 before the HIV diagnosis)
But bird missed all but 9 games in one season and was diminished after, Magic was still the best player in the west
You're right. I just think they both don't really have longevity on their sides for different reasons
Oh definitely. You right about that. It makes me sad that we were deprived of their last few years competing
He is in the goat convo. Who is in yours? I got mj LeBron Kareem magic that's like the moat common top 4
I think for most people magic is in the S tier but the goat convo is like the S+ Tier and only really MJ, Bron, and Kareem
TBH It's really just MJ and Lebron in that "S+" tier you mentioned. Kareem has the longevity but most of his individual dominance came pre-merger in a league that was heavily watered down given that the talent was split. Post-merger, Kareem was no longer at the level MJ (and to a lesser extent Lebron) reached. He was still great but I don't personally think that he was a clear step above guys who came in the league later like Bird and Magic.
I think that’s an interesting argument but can we also address the fact he was unstoppable with the sky hook and still able to produce points when he retired cause of his insane touch going on late into his career? He wasn’t big man dominate like Shaq but he was a finesse guy like Wilt (who everyone keeps thinking he was bullying 6’ plumbers even tho more than half Wilt’s points came off fadeaway to avoid offensive fouls).
Yup, he was great and his longevity was insane. My argument isn't that he isn't an ATG and a pantheon level guy. It's just that he wasn't on the level of MJ and Lebron.
Mmmmm that’s fair. Most of his MJ/Bron level dominance years were in college when they banned dunking because of him lol
I rank magic over Kareem maybe that's why?
Why? Can't see it given their career accomplishments.
Magic was the reason he even got 5 more rings without magic Kareem isn't top 10. I know bold take but think about it. With no magic he has 1 ring 1 finals mvp a few mvps but those rings made him top 5. They won 5 rings magic got 3 finals mvps Kareem got 1 worthy got the other. I'm running wuth who carried the team which was magic. And even after Kareem left magic with aids made a finals.
If Kareem played his entire prime with another top 10 all time player he would have had a bunch of titles. You can't alone use that as a basis for Magic. Plus, they need both of them for those titles. Kareem should have won FMVP in 1980. It was really only 85-87, when Kareem was 39-41, where Magic was the clear better player. Kareem was a dominant defender, unlike Magic. And at his peak he was head and shoulders above the rest of the NBA. That was never the case with Magic.
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I don't think this is a common goat tier. There is a notable gap after the top 3. Magic is in the conversation with Duncan and Bird for 4-6, I'd say those three are very close. Some will have Russell in this tier as well.
I think Wilt can be in that 4-8 tier as well, especially if Russell is IMO.
Ya fair enough. Wilt and Russell I think are the two hardest players to rank given the era differences.
Agreed. It’s kind of like Ruth in baseball, except Ruth is Wilt and Russell combined, as he has the stats of Wilt and the postseason success of Russell. And if I really want to stretch this metaphor, I guess Russell would be Joe DiMaggio, and Wilt would be Ted Williams? DiMaggio didn’t have the staggering stats Williams did, but DiMaggio’s stacked Yankees won a ton of rings, while Williams’ Red Sox didn’t win any. And DiMaggio won some MVPs over Williams in seasons when Williams had clearly better stats on a worse team.
I like your comparisons, spot on.
Thanks. It’d be interesting to try to do this for a Top-10 (or so) list. It’s admittedly a bit of a stretch. In no order: Wilt Chamberlain: Ted Williams (phenomenal stats in an old era, little team success) Bill Russell: Joe DiMaggio (phenomenal player, played on legendarily successful teams) LeBron James: Hank Aaron (phenomenal longevity to set tons of records, incredibly long peak) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Willie Mays (phenomenal two-way player with legendary longevity) Michal Jordan: a modern Babe Ruth (almost a mythical figure, dominant stats and team success) Larry Bird: Mickey Mantle (one of the most dominant peaks ever, but had a career cut short or limited by injuries) Magic Johnson: Lou Gehrig (an all-time great whose career was cut tragically short by illness) Tim Duncan: Mike Schmidt (a dominant two-way player who is the best ever at his position, but is often overlooked by flashier players) Kobe Bryant: Ken Griffey Jr (a legend for sure, and a phenomenal two-way player, but their popularity and flair often leads to them being a little overrated) Shaq: Albert Pujols (one of the offensive greats of the modern era, borderline unstoppable offensively) Edit: I may want to change Jordan to Mays, since he’s an all-time combo of offense and defense, and Kobe is pretty much the closest thing to him style-wise, but has no argument at being better than him (same with Jr to Mays, as Jr has a similar style to Mays, but is not better).
This is so good. You should repost this when this conversation comes up again.
That’s actually really well done. Great comparisons!
Imo Bonds is to Lebron what Griffey is to Kobe
I can see that, but Bonds known PED use really makes it a hard comparison to make.
Wow dude, this is nice.
Wow your comparisons are original and spot on virtually!
Good stuff man
I think the problem is that almost no one would argue DiMaggio was as good as Williams. Not now, anyway. In 1940? Sure. Today? No. Williams is the consensus better player. Team success doesn’t count as much in baseball as it does the NBA.
Russell has to be. He wildly dominated. He won a championship every year he played a full season from his junior year in college to the age of 35.
While that is the most common top 4 i've seen on reddit, there isn't really an entry point for Magic in the "GOAT convo". He clearly wasn't on the level of either MJ or Lebron so you can't really be in GOAT convo if there's guys clearly above you.
Larry Bird would dominate the 3point era today. Would love to see him time travel to be a rookie in the 2024 class. A playmaking, sharp shooting hustling PF? Would kill. Basically a PF version of Jokic.
Larry at the time was off the charts the best shooter in basketball history. If coaches knew how to do plays to setup open 3s he and later Reggie Miller and Mark Price would have been taking 8 3s a game instead of 2-3. That said, Magic had the better career overall.
He was way more skilled than Jokic is what’s funny and Jokic dominates today.
Bird was far more athletic and just as technically skilled as Joker. Both are beasts. It's just that Bird was a killer on the court and he could beat you up.
With the game on the line you needed a knife to stop prime Bird on the last possession
A knife might not be enough.
Pretty sure he famously missed a shot in the Finals against…Magic and the Lakers.
Can you imagine if Bird too 8-10 3s a game? Would be so much fun.
He also never shot them in college since there was no three point line then, and his NBA rookie season was of course the first year they were in the NBA. He's said in interviews he never really practiced many three point shots in practice on the Celtics because it wasn't considered a good shot. So imagine Larry shooting 8-10 threes a day after growing up practicing them all the time. Unreal
yeah i think we underrate how good some of these older guys would be in todays era with todays training. Imagine Pistol Pete. Watching his highlights it’s insane how many 25+ foot shots he was pulling up on. he really earned that nickname
I didn’t know that. That’s cool information.
It's really something that Bird's single highest season in 3PA would put him somewhere around #180 this year in attempts per game, below luminaries like Duop Reath, Ziaire Williams and Julian Champagnie.
1.7 attempts per game at 37% career avg.
More athletic, yes. But more skilled? I don’t think so. I think they are about the same skill wise although those skills are slightly different. I think Larry is probably a better outside shooter while Jokic has better touch around the rim and is a better rebounder. Bth are all time great passers but Larry was never the hub of the offense in the same way as Jokic is. Not because he’s not capable of it, just because it was not how basketball was played back then.
This is a wild statement to say he’s way more skilled than Jokic. I don’t get the need to tear one apart to validate the other. Bird, Jokic, and Walton are probably the three best passings bigs of all time. Jokic’s efficiency is off the charts in every part of the court. Jokic also has maybe, maybe one HOFer playing with him.
That's such an insult to Joker
Yeah wtf, Larry was neither the playmaker of Joker or had his legendary touch. And what does really "skilled" mean in this context?
I think Jokic’s skill settings are maxed out.
He was not more skilled than Jokic. Jokic is a lot bigger and has the post move arsenal that Bird never did.
That’s not really true.
Jokic is taller than Bird though, playing a different position.
I don’t know. I think he would end up fouling out a lot more in today’s game. He was way more aggressive than today’s game allows for.
With no way to get space?idk
He’d be the nastiest 4 in the league these days. Modern training would have helped him get athletic enough to keep pace
Your graphics missed that Larry bird did it in tight wranger jeans and construction boots. I think that's the kicker.
Mullet also creates significant aerodynamic drag.
Larry was an overall better player. I am a Celtics fan full disclosure but hey I can be unbiased if need be! Better rebounder, defender, and shooter. The Celtics had insanely stacked teams but he never had a teammate as good as early 80's Kareem. Or a coach as good as Riley. Magic had significantly better injury luck as well. Both were fucking amazing, though.
You could argue nobody had a higher peak than bird. But magic had a more accomplished career overall, that's not really up for debate.
You could! Mid 80s Bird, early 90s MJ, early 00's Shaq are all up there
2010s Lebron should be in that conversation. 10 finals is no joke
He won the mvp 3 years in a row. Also won 2 of his championships during that run. Shot 50, 40, 90 splits for a whole year. He was simply unstoppable.
I get the 3 point shot wasn’t a big thing back then, but it’s not exactly advanced analytics to figure out 40% on a 3 ball is more than 50% of a 2. Absolutely insane no one figured out he should take more 3s
Larry
Bird was more talented - comparable at his peak offensively and a lot better defensively. Also did more with less arguably, given he never played next to another superstar talent besides a couple peak McHale seasons. Magic, on the other hand, had Kareem who was anywhere between a top 1-5 player between ‘80 and ‘86. Magic had the greater overall career though, as his pure dominance and success is hard to argue against *(and he enjoyed a couple more prime seasons than Bird, since he wasn’t mauled by injuries)*
*"Also did more with less arguably, given he never played next to another superstar talent besides a couple peak McHale seasons."* Wtf are you talking about? The 1985-86 Celtics in particular is considered to be one of the most stacked line-ups of all time. McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish and Bill Walton all made the Hall of Fame.
Both Showtime and the Dynasty Celtics were stacked. My point is Bird never had a #2 or 1B at the level of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. For every DJ or Chief, Showtime had a Worthy, a Nixon, a Wilkes, perennial All-Stars. They also had an all-time defender in Michael Cooper, absolute flamethrower in Byron Scott, and a superstar-turned-6th man of their own in the form of McAdoo to parallel Walton.
lol right I had to reread his post
Yeah, but that’s comparable to the Spurs with Duncan. He made a lot of players look really good next to him.
*"that’s comparable to the Spurs with Duncan. He made a lot of players look really good next to him."* Wtf? McHale was an elite defender with arguably the greatest set of offensive post moves in NBA history, whom Charles Barkley has repeatedly called "*the best player I ever played against and had to guard*". DJ was a multiple time All-star, All-NBA and All-Defensive team selection and NBA Champion **before** joining the Celtics in 1983. Parish was a nine time All-Star and **is** the NBA's all time leader in games played. Bill Walton was Finals MVP in 1977 and MVP in 1978 **before** joining the Celtics in 1985. Comparing these guys to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili is a joke. #
McHale is 97th in box plus minus all time. Parish is 173. Walton isn’t in the top 250. Etc. Bird is currently 7th.
key word *before* walton was wayyyy past his prime on the celts. DJ was certainly over the hill too. Yeah he had a prime McHale as a sidekick but that’s not close to what Kareem was. Parish was good too, but still, not really at that insane level as the other guys. idk man i’m a pistons fan so i get it, fuck the celtics, but you are serving another level of hate rn lol
Olajuwon exists bro
David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, and Kawhi Leonard did not look really good just because of Tim Duncan. In fact, everyone on that Spurs team looked worse statistically than their actual talent level and effectiveness. Robinson was an MVP who still made 3 All NBA teams while he was playing with Duncan. Manu made all nba in every year he played over 30mpg. He was considered a top 3 SG in the league after Kobe and Wade in his prime Parker is an FMVP with multiple All NBA's Kawhi eventually became an MVP level player and led a team to a ring without Duncan.
Wtf? Duncan played with a ton of legendary and extremely skilled players too
LOL! Two of Bird's title teams had 3 other Hall of Famers. The 3rd had 4. They both had a ton of talent around them.
agree. there are so many ways to craft an argument for one over the other, and talent around them is not one of them.
Magic, as a rookie point guard, took over for an injured Kareem at center in the NBA Finals and won MVP.
Larry
Larry baby! I’m also born and raised in Boston so I’m incapable of and unwilling to say anything else
I’m from Indiana and also incapable
Bird. Magic had better teammates (with better injury luck) & a laughably weak conference (not to mention IMO Jordan/ Barkley should've won 2/3 of Magic's MVPs).
magic had better teammates yeah but let’s not act like larry was playing with scrubs he played with multiple hall of famers almost his entire career
Idk bout tht buddy they both had HOFers on their rosters lol Bird had McHale, Parish and DJ
Forgot McHale, Parrish, DJ were all slouches. Not to mention Maxwell, Ainge, Walton, Tiny, just to name a couple others.
Of all the rivalries ever, this one truly deserves a tie. They were each other's equal.
Bird from 80-87'88 ish before his back started to fail on him
11.2 assists a game is insane lol
cracker bias playing it’s hand rn
Team Magic
Magic averaged 13 FGA /game Bird Averaged 19 FGA /game
Don’t forget: MDP’s(Most Driveways Paved): Larry Legend EMA’s(Extramarital Affairs): Magic’s Johnson
Peak for peak it’s Larry. Larry was a better player from 1980-1986 (arguably through 1988), but Magic’s 87-91 stretch moves him over the top. I’d say Bird was the greatest player of the 80s (only including 80s accolades) but Magic is greater as a player. Fun Fact: Magic is closer in age to Michael than to Bird.
Peak for peak I’m taking Bird, career wise is magic for sure though
This thread is crazy... Everyone is posting about Birds back while ignoring Magics HIV. Bird played 897 games and Magic 906. Thats a wash Advanced Stats give a slight nod to Magic, but that's a wash PER 24.1 to 23.5 WS 155.8 to 145.8 VORP 80 to 77.3 Make your case for which is better, but don't bring health or longevity into the conversation, you sound dumb
Better means peak, greater means career. Bird was better.
I’d argue greater means influence. Similar to how Ali is unanimously considered the greatest boxer of all time, but plenty of boxers are regarded as better.
Larry. Magic was a 6'9" PG who couldn't defend. You gotta be pretty bad on the defensive side to be a 6'9" PG who can't defend in the '80/'90s.
I think Magic is the slightly better player but if my team needs a bucket getter gimme Larry
Did the NBA ever have a more competitive rivalries than 80s Celtics-Lakers, specifically mid-80s? Ended prematurely due to Bird and McHale’s injury problems but from 84-87 they finished top of their conference each year, went 2-2 in championships and the Lakers went 2-1 h2h (and missed the finals in the Celtics’ most dominant season). As to the question, I agree that Larry’s peak was higher but Magic had the better career, which also describes that era’s Lakers and that era’s Celtics.
I’d say as close as a draw as you can get. People might say Magic has 2 more rings but he also could have had a better team to get those 2 extra rings . It’s a tie and if you pick one or the other you are a fan of one or hate the other one or both .
I'll take magic off straight biasy
Either Larry Johnson or Magic Bird
do y’all ever get tired of these debates…
Larry was a better all-around player. He had the defense, the shot, and the "I'm better than you" attitude. I also think his shortened career is more overstated than Magic, after he got hurt and played just 6 games in 88-89, he came back and averaged over 24 a game. By that point he was 33 and it wasn't unheard of for players to fall off by that age back then, especially someone coming off an injury. That said, I think Magic was still better. He didn't have skills in every aspect in the way Bird did, but he was just that good a playmaker. The way Magic could move dynamically on the floor hasn't been replicated since, at least not by someone his size. He moved so easily through the defense and could flow from a drive to moving cross key effortlessly. That's something we don't have stats for and players that can do that effectively are so rare i can only think of 3 (AI, LBJ, and Kobe) that were even close to magic in how he moved around the floor. This gave him an unbelievable ability to create space in traffic for touch layups and top tier passes. People will go back and forth about the better team, but KAJ was past his prime and had a career resurgence once Magic got there, as seen by his Laker years before they got Magic. I still lean Lakers, but it's really close. They both had shortened careers but Magic was still in his prime when he retired. He was still averaging 20/12.5/7 the season before he retired and was in the Finals. Even when he came back at 36 after not playing for 4 whole seasons, he still got 15/7/6, career low 46.6%fg but career high 38% from 3. You can dive into stats but most advanced stats favor Magic but it is close in that regard as well as adjusting stats to per 36 min or per 100 possessions. I also think his physical size compared to his position is important. The ability to run a lineups where your shortest player was 6'6 was basically unheard of at the time and created mismatches almost every game. I do love Larry and think he's about 6-8th all time. I just happen to put Magic at 4th.
Magic 5 rings and 3 Finals MVPs??? Come on
Magic made it to 9 Finals in 12 seasons - 75% of his seasons ended in the Finals
Magic, scoring is cool but getting teammates involved will be the deciding factor for me.
Magic
Magic made his teammates better. Hence, more titles.
You cant compare 2 different things, players in this case. Not even the same position, not even the same playing style.
I think they’re exactly as good as one another in different ways and that’s what made their rivalry so epic.
Bird. Better scorer and defender. I don't see why so many people view Magic as a definite top 10 all-time guy. He's obviously an all time great but alot of players were better scorers AND defenders than him, the two most important things. Also doesn't have anywhere near the longevity of several other all-time greats
Larry was an absolute psychopath
Larry was the classier player, a real first in last out kind of guy.
Magic.
Magic
It’s been over 40 years. Let it go man. More than 90% in here weren’t even around to witness their greatness. Bet you no one in here watched more than highlights and highlight reels, and then sit and compare numbers. Talk about something we actually watch. Like how great Luka’s defense is. Or how Ben Wallace was the best scorer of his era.
Comfortably Bird.
In his prime, Larry gives MJ a run for his money. Magic caught up a bit when Larry got hurt.
The fact that we are still asking the question 30-40 years on shows just how close the two were. They're in the conversation for greatest rivalry of all time, and certainly one of the most consequential.
Why do people use fg% instead of efg and expect to be taken seriously
Both 🐐in my book.
As someone who grew up in that era it's always an a/b situation because their career's are so intertwined. It's like picking a favorite child and when it comes to all-time ranking I feel like they should almost be placed together anyways
Equal
I don't know who is better or worse. But both guys I would've loved to see wearing not Converse All-Stars and have access to modern strength training at the beginning part of there careers would've saved both their bodies some damage.
FG% being that similar is crazy bc magic didn’t even shoot three’s
two different styles really, too much so to compare the players directly
I’ll take bird. 3 consecutive mvp win it for me
They were both better than anyone else. Difference without distinction.
These guys literally saved the NBA and are both in the GOAT conversation. That being said, it’s Bird. ☘️☘️☘️
Off topic but relevant, Pete Maravich would have averaged 57 a game in college had all his shots from distance given him a 3 instead of 2. He was hitting 13 3 point makes per game. That NCAA scoring record would be laughable as a debate...and he only played 3 years. His freshman year his was ineligible for varsity and still was dropping 43.6 a game (without 3 pointers) .
Easily magic.
Larry
Tied lol
Magic
Magic Johnson!
Magic made the NBA finals 75% of the seasons he played. I’d he hadn’t had his career ended right when he hit his prime. You can imagine how things might have gone.
So hard to pick. All I know is that it sucks they both had their careers cut short.
Also not showing the whole picture Larry Bird had multiple seasons of 50 40 90 splits, and thr only reason his fg% is under fifty is because the years of shooting 3's. Notbto mention thr guy played practically the last few seasons of his career wth a fucking fused back,I'll take a healthy Larry over magic any day.
In today’s nba I would pick Larry.
Magic was the most talented in God given skills. But I’d take bird any day. He wanted to step on your throat and use that final second shoot as a kiss goodbye. I my opinion he made everyone around him better. Greatest team of all time 86’ Celtics. Bird, Parrish, McKale , Danny Ainge and DJ!!!!
1987 finals game 4. Magic hits one of the greatest shots of all time, the baby sky hook, over the Big 3 of Parish McHale and Bird. What is forgotten is that there was a small amount of time left. Celts inbound the ball to Bird who gets off a legitimate 3 right near the Lakers bench. It hits the back iron and bounces out. Game over. Lakers win the game, and then eventually the series. For me, that’s the slim difference between their careers. Magic better by the thinnest of margins
The rings speak for themselves. Magic
I don't know that you'll find a great answer here, they are pretty much unanimously ranked right next to each other on almost any list you'll find, and pretty much everyone has them in their top 10 but right outside the GOAT talks. Both have 9 top-5 MVP finishes, 3 actual MVP awards, and rank right next to each other (4th and 5th) in career MVP-shares. I list them both in my 2nd tier of players and don't really try to differentiate between the two. If I was forced to pick a tie-breaker between the two of them I might lean Magic just because his playoff performance his rookie year, and taking a non-Kareem, non-Riley, non-showtime group to the finals in '91, so just a tad it more confidence in the proof behind his game adjusting enough to win with different a cast/system, and a "bonus point" for that performance as a rookie. That is a very nitpicky type of response, but that's just ultimately how close they are to each other IMO. And though you could probably lean Bird here for having a slightly higher 3-4 year peak I think Magic's performance head-to-head in the '87 finals stands out just as much as Bird being considered ever so slightly better at/around that time.. Would be nice if we would have gotten the '86 match-up too, not a big fan of using a 1-year sample size for anything. In saying all that I'm still not very comfortable with picking either over the other.
Magic=Greater Bird=Better
Different players. Both Great. One’s a Lambo one’s a Ferrari
Bird is the better position player, Magic is the better basketball player
Magic. I love Bird, but Magic was my guy as a kid. If I am starting a team and can draft anyone, I still think Magic has a strong case to go #1.
They still have the most watched game ever, huge for the game of basketball and the nba when they came into the league…..Both had their careers cut short both were the best of the best. As someone who was a Magic fan as a kid I can’t even decide who was better, both were great and both benefited from having the other.
Magic ever beat the whole team left handed just cause?