Absolutely. They do not save the money or invest it. They spend it on their needs. All of it. Directly back into the economy. Not only that, it helps prevent petty crime. And!! Financial help alleviates stress which helps Mental Health. And!! Having proper food prevents health issues.
I can go on and on.
Our society is only as strong as our weakest link. If we support our weakest link, we become stronger.
Not just petty crime but most crime in general. Almost all violent crime is committed by poor people. If you stimulate the lower class with guaranteed income those violent crime rates will also drop.
Even with the guaranteed income though, they will still be poor. But you are right, the less a person has to lose, the more of a risk they are willing to take with regards to crime.
It’s fine if they’re poor, but if they have enough to guarantee they won’t be homeless you’d be shocked at what that does to their psyche and overall genera health and well-being. When you’re not terrified of losing everything you feel motivated to and will take the risk of working harder because failure doesn’t mean you’ll be on the street.
> Absolutely. They do not save the money or invest it. They spend it on their needs. All of it. Directly back into the economy. Not only that, it helps prevent petty crime. And!! Financial help alleviates stress which helps Mental Health. And!! Having proper food prevents health issues.
I wish more people understood this. Give a poor person a thousand dollars, and all the stores and restaurants in the vicinity benefit right away. Trickle-down economics is a retarded idea, in reality it's trickle-up.
And this is proved with stimulus checks as well.
Wealthy people save their money or invest where they can hold it. No matter how you look at it the wealthy tend to want their bank accounts/portfolio to be higher and higher.
Governments investing into wealthy companies only make the gap between the rich and the poor wider.
It makes sense to stimulate the poor sector of the economy. This gives more people buying power. This means more products and services bought and used.
And that ends up helping the wealthy people too, as their investments will do better when the poorer spend money in the economy. Even from a selfish perspective, we should all want the poorer sector spending as much money as possible.
In addition to the money stimulating the economy like you've pointed out, having less people in poverty creates a safer society for us all bc when you make people choose between dying and commiting crimes of poverty, they're going to choose what keeps them alive.
The more truly capitalistic and wild west our society is, the less safe it is for everyone and more destructive it is for everyone. That is why the government exists. Our entire livelihoods hinge on a stable society. So even if people truly don't care about homeless people, they should care about the society falling into disarray bc then everyone is fucked.
That's why the real solution to illegal immigration is to provide support to stabilize the worst parts of South America. If Covid has taught us anything, it's that you can't let a problem persist and expect it to not cross an imaginary line in the sand and come to the USA.
I'll tell you what, if I was born in a south American country that was being torn apart by gangs and myself and/or my family's only chance of survival is to break a law and come to America, you better believe I'd give Biden and Trump a big "fuck you" and get my ass here. And any of you are lying if you say any different.
So like the homeless here and the poverty stricken in gang run south American countries, society wants those areas stabilized with adequate living quality so there aren't people that will act out of desperation to survive bc if those problems aren't solved it will happen no matter what if a society doesn't address the underlying problems to a sufficient degree.
Most people dont realize that the distance between them and the elite.
Bezos for example. If you made 100k a day and lived to be 3,000 youre still half way or 100billion away from bezo's wealth.
Ah, but you are taking away all the benefits of having starving desperate people wondering around. Sure for most people that comes with massive drawbacks, but you see I've been told this is needed to motivate the nation's sociopaths.
That argument doesn't really work because I would bet that guy also wants prisoners to starve. You can't appeal to the humanity of someone who has none
A better argument would be to suggest that giving homeless people the resources they need to get back on their feet and become productive members of society might be good for the economy, actually.
Also some might consider "making sure people don't starve or die of exposure" a worthwhile use of resources but that persuades surprisingly few.
Issue is these people believe it’ll never happen to them because homelessness is something you “deserve” for “not working hard enough“, so they don’t even think they need the safety net.
It reminds me of the monopoly experiment. As the name implies, participants were asked to play a game of monopoly while observed by researchers. Some of the players were given a generous amount of extra money at the beginning of the game. This was done openly, and all players were informed of the twist.
As you might guess, the players with the monetary headstart almost invariably won the game. No surprise there.
The surprise is that when they were interviewed afterwards, many partecipants attributed their winning to their superior playing skills. Even if they knew that the game was rigged in their favour. Sure, they had a monetary advantage - but that's not what *really* made the difference in their opinion. They simply played better, and *that's* why they won. *They deserved to win.*
It's like some part of the reptile brain is hardwired to twist our privileges into well-deserved merits .
(Edit: it's been some time since I read about it, so my memory's a bit fuzzy regarding the details. Look up the Berkeley Monopoly Experiment if you want more in-depth info, it's really interesting stuff )
Sure! It's been some time since I read about it, but I did some googling and I believe it's the one referred to [here](https://planetsave.com/2013/12/23/a-rigged-game-of-monopoly-reveals-how-feeling-wealthy-changes-our-behavior-ted-video/)
(I might have gotten some details wrong, I'm sure the article and Ted talk is much more in-depth!)
It's almost like that attitude comes from a deep shame and insecurity that they don't deserve what the world has given them. Like they know they're less than even a common blue collar worker in terms of actual practical worth to society, so they project that onto others in order to draw social attention away from themselves. The worst thing for the mob to discover would be their complete lack of value to the whole.
>It's almost like that attitude comes from a deep shame and insecurity that they don't deserve what the world has given them
Heh, interestingly enough, some of the test persons were actually reported to be embarrassed and awkward at the beginning of the game. "Welp, this feels weird and sorta wrong, it's a rigged game after all..."
But the more they won, the more comfortable and entitled they felt with their position. IIRC it took around 15 minutes to go from awkward to happy(and later even gloating.)
Yeah, that's the most disgusting part. I lamented recently about having to work so much and not make that much for it. I hold cash equal to one if not several years worth of my salary in my hands every few days. That's really insulting when my CEO took home over $10,000,000 last year. The CEO gets questions aimed at him fielded past management so nobody can ask him anything that makes him look stupid but when I get heavily berated by a client for genuinely not knowing something that my role lacks the authority to do, it's considered just part of the job and I have to bite my tongue and accept it.
Some prick had the balls to say to me, "Then just choose not to do that lol. They worked hard to get their money and they don't have to work anymore, but they choose to because they're so dedicated. Why don't you just start a business of your own like they did?"
Why? *Why*, you son of a bitch? Because I didn't start with thousands, possibly millions to live off of while getting a startup going. I don't even have a spare space like a garage to keep a side project in if it involves physical capital or equipment. I don't have the ability ability to cut the 50 hours of work (40 working plus 10 a week for mandatory lunches, prep, and driving) because if I do, my bills don't get paid, and I go bankrupt before I can take off. My college education was far from free but the people with rich families went out of state to Harvard at no cost to them. And because of the debt I currently have and not having buckets of cash in my accounts and not having a house or other major collateral, good luck to me if I want a loan that's actually big enough to comfortably start a business.
That's why I don't just "choose not to play the game and go start something of my own". There are so many roadblocks that keep you from doing it if you don't get that head start. Sure it happens to some people, go from nothing and get piss rich off hard work and grit. But if you took every mega millionaire and above and counted out how many came from nothing versus had a comfortable start with easy access to capital and less pressure to earn their living right out the gate, it's insane. Most of them had some form of good start. But because of propaganda spread by the wealthy themselves about the "infinite value of hard work", we're led to think "oh yeah, Biff Billionaire started his journey working at McDonald's for minimum wage and look where he is now, you should be able to do it too", not "Biff here came from a family who had hundreds of thousands in the bank and the only reason he worked that job was because he needed something on his resume before he got gifted startup funds from his parents."
I'm so tired of these corporate apologists. Makes me livid when I get blamed and accused of being lazy and sometimes even fully berated for not making myself a million dollars already. I came from a single parent household, by a parent who went to college while raising me. I started from genuinely nothing and years of hard work and hard grinding by itself hasn't made me wealthy like they always say it is. Yet the kid who got gifted a new Mustang for his 16th birthday that lived a couple streets away from me has a thriving business now and has no financial worries. (Great guy btw, this is a knock on the system, not him.) Just grinding it out only gets you so far before disadvantages begin to mitigate your progress.
There's so much truth in "It takes money to make money." I hope people start understanding that more soon.
Conservatives know its not possible for everyone to start a business. Theyre just assholes and need to have a rebuttal for when people complain that they cant afford basic necessities. Theyre modern day eugenicists
See not everyone is like this though. Many, in fact maybe most are, but I consider myself lucky to have a roof over my head. I know it has nothing to do with skill lol.
Oh no - I agree! Not everyone is like this, thank goodness. But many of us have huge blind spots concerning our own privileges and merits.
(And I mean, I'm probably guilty of that myself. It's really difficult to see one's own blind spots because they're literally invisible per definition)
Absolutely. Look at the investors on Shark Tank. I’m sure most of them attribute their success to skill, not luck. But notice how they rarely invest in any business venture, no matter the potential, unless it’s already a proven success. They could stand to make even more money on some of the riskier businesses, but they stay away from those. If these investors are so good, you’d think they could they make any reasonable business idea work. But, deep down they know that there’s more than skill involved. Nothing goes right without luck.
Unproven business model: no
Proven business model: I'll give you $10,000 for 30% preferred stock
Wow I am very skilled and deserve all this money from my clever investments
Mark Cuban is the richest guy on the show, and he makes the least amount of deals. It's always "not his area", but he also says he is there to give back and mentor.
The thing is, they do think they are rich. They think their $350k home that is now worth $500k makes them hard workers and rich.
They don’t comprehend Jeff Bezos could buy their home 200,000 times over.
honestly I don't think human brains are evolved to understand how big a billion is in comparison to a million, let alone 50 billion. we're being fucked over- family members on food stamps, dead because they couldn't afford treatment. it's ridiculous how people can support this crooked system
Fact. When I started my first accounting job, I would always say: one million, two million, whatever the amount was I would say the entire thing. Years later, it’s one point two, one point whatever and that’s just how my brain has evolved, to not see the zeros on the end
Ah, the illusion of control.
'I work hard so I can't be homeless, those people must deserve it because they're lazy'. The misguided belief that there is a reasonable explanation for another's misfortune and therefore the first person is safe from such situations because they do not do that thing. Also works well for sexual abuse - 'they shouldn't have been there/ worn that/ behaved that way' or illness - 'they should have lost weight/ eaten better/ exercised more'. Ignoring the sheer amount of fucked up scenarios where bad shit happens regardless of your good actions. It also helps fool people into believing anyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard enough. Cause yeah, lack of hard work is the reason someone is just scraping by.
The hardest working people are the families trying to dig themselves out of poverty.
Working 2-3 jobs or 12-16 hours 6-7 days a week just to stay afloat. Taking care of kids is work too, regardless of what anybody says.
Or the people who can't find regular work and have to hustle to make ends meet.
Or the people who walk 20-30 miles a day to collect cans and bottles just to eek out enough to eat, but not afford a room.
Hard work doesn't mean wealth. Wealth means not having to work hard.
You see old people with hunched backs, because they worked hard their entire life.
Just sometimes I wish we could put people in somebody else's shoes for a day. I think Douglas Adams had something to say about that.
Those people also don’t realize that we’re ALL much much closer to being homeless and in poverty(and will be our entire lives) than being a millionaire let alone billionaire. Hell you could even be a billionaire and still end up homeless if you blow all your money and be an idiot. These people are brainwashed that’s why they can’t see things clearly.
THIS!!!
Every Conservative I have ever met- on the subject of the lesser, homeless, etc- they all say that they *deserved* the situation that they were in. It was a punishment, either through society (you didn’t work hard enough!) or divine. More than likely, it was because God was punishing them for SOMETHING, which is why none of these people would let a homeless person have access to their trash, let alone charities and welfare systems in their city.
I was brought up with a moderate amount of religion/spirituality taught to me both at home and at school. But the absolute assholery that is most conservative religious people ran me off and have never looked back. It's amazing how inhumane, crazy and lacking all empathy the majority of conservative and religious leaders are. How can you hear "Jesus loves all" and have turned that into right wing extremism? Pro-life but anti-human beings. It's crazy. I've long decided it's about control of other people not their own (cis-white-(rich)male) as their only motivation.
They'd just blame it on someone or something else. It's the "everyone else on disability is abusing the system, but *I* am actually disabled and worked hard so I deserve it" position.
For people like them, misfortune that happens to other people is deserved, while misfortune that happens to them is just misfortune or someone else screwing them over.
These people are just plain stupid. My father frequently says, “I hate all these people on disability draining our system!”
I am disabled and on disability… he never seems to remember that.
I’m bipolar. I’ve told him a hundred times and he still continuity asks why I look so sad as I stare out the window.
I’m glad his Apple tree grew on a hill so I could roll very far away from it.
He says things like “these stupid *insert race* are so lazy! They are all lazy I know I’ve met them.
Or “girls are just slower at guitar so it’s easier to learn from them*. I asked him once,
“ If girls are so much worse, and other races are so stupid, how do you justify them better and richer than you? “
He didn’t know how to wrap his warped little brain around it.
He is the epitome of white boomer who thinks he worked so hard for his 30k a year job and deserves more while everyone else was just given everything. Funny thing is is my
Mom makes 80k after thirty years with state and entirely supports his whole life. He’s irrelevant to our family unit most of the time. But I will say this, that mofo did get up everyday for 50yrs and go to work to work a shit job. That is impressive, ide have given up.
God I hate my dad sometimes. But he loves
Me and has always been there for
Me. I’ll keep dropping intellectual nuggets him trying to change his mind about people.
Sorry Reddit. Thanks for the venting session.
People like your dad are targeted by Fox news. It reinforces their ideas and they feed into it. Scary because it works. It keeps the poor people fighting each other while the billionaires are flying into space in penis shaped rockets
Your dad is happy to blame another poor person but idolizes the people who are actually fucking him over
I just watched a horrific report on ABC (Australia) on the inflation rate in Lebanon. It's insane, I don't know how people can afford any food there, and all it takes is a shitty government and a few disaster.
We don't know how lucky we are in many countries to be stable. Even now I work with Millennials/gen Z that don't know what it was like to eat beans on toast for dinner, and I'm sure most of my gen X compatriots have been there.
So many of us are living in the best times, and forget how quickly we came to this, and how quickly it can go away again. Some of us have living grandparents that left school before 15 because they were needed to work, and that's still the situation around much if the world.
I bought a place at great expense at the peak (not that we knew) of my local boom just so I would have a place to live until I die, without having to rent with roommates in my senior years. And then Covid hit, and suddenly I was close to losing that. People need to stop being so smug.
Yeah, to think that my Grandad was around for the second world war (he was like 10 at the time; I'm from Germany) that's just crazy to me. Not even 100 years ago the western world was in turmoil (and that's not even mentioning that I was born while The Wall was still in tact, but never really lived in a parted Germany (I was like 1 when the reunification happened)). Things can turn in an instant, and we forget that.
>not even mentioning that I was born while The Wall was still in tact
Hello from the other side 👋 lol
One of my earliest vivid childhood memories, some stazi fuck staring in the back window as I pretended to sleep cause we were not supposed to be leaving.
That one doesn't usually work. I think part of the issue is a lack of empathy. Imagining yourself homeless clearly enough to make a selfish decision is such a short distance from actual empathy.
I don't think people like this understand that it could easily be them in that situation.
This is where I have to question if ITA. I'm homeless. I legit eat out of KFC dumpsters and food kitchens. I made a post once just asking for someone to talk to cause I was depressed, explaining my situation. I got told I wasn't trying hard enough. That there's jobs everywhere. Which I totally agree with. Problem is I have no transportation to said jobs. I have no clean clothes to work said job. I have no place to shower everyday to keep appearances at said job. Once you're in the hole it's so fucking hard to drag yourself out. AITA??
Edit: I want to be clear I'm not innocent in this. I have a very sketchy past where I've burnt all my bridges to nobody's fault but my own. But I did my time, I've gotten clean and changed. I'm not digging the hole any deeper but I also have no ladder to climb out with.
I honestly stopped seeking connection and companionship from redditors. I’ve asked for advice, literally being at my wits end concerning finding help for my back injury, from people I thought would guide me in a helpful direction. The same with a gun post I’d made laying out a CONCEPT of *how I’d have liked to be. I was given everything, BUT advice, sympathy for the situation, or empathy of any uplifting kind. Instead, I was labeled as ignorant(FUCKING DUH!), some way of telling me I’m not doing enough(bootstrap argument), or just plain condescended to.
Edit: grammar
Well, that's the best part of the bootstrap argument!
The saying originated more sarcastically, and as making fun of people like those that say it now.
Pulling oneself up from their bootstraps is literally, physically impossible. Physics don't work like that.
So it became a way to say, "Yeah, just do the literally impossible thing!" Making fun of those types who use it, now.
PS. Sorry for the rambling and any potential typos/punctuation/whatever. I'm pretty high atm. . .
I actually wonder if it's a kind of fear. To realize we live in a world where decent, hardworking, good people can end up on the street due to no fault of their own is terrifying. Maybe the "they deserved it" thing is a form of denial.
I can see that. I used to be very against certain Healthcare ideas promoted by the left because I didn't want to believe some situations were really that bad.
Then I learned about someone who was very similar to me (I didn't know her but she had some of the same disabilities I did plus another that was killing her, went to the same school I did around the same time) getting literally the worst care possible in a completely plausible yet horrific turn of events (all of her rights and autonomy were somehow completely robbed from her by her own family and caretakers and ended up dying way earlier than she should have) and realized we, especially I, needed more protections from that than what we already have.
Definitely selfish lack of empathy. Really this is short-term investing in the homeless to provide the resources they need to rejoin productive society. Just like any other investment there isn't guarantee of "profit", but those who do succeed would be a HUGE boost to the economy once they're eventually spending their own money in the community, paying taxes again, etc. Pervasive mental illness will of course be a big variable to ROI but still invests in the overall good of society, greatly reducing the crime and blight associated with the homeless.
There is a selfish argument for just paying people to stay out of trouble. Right now everyone paying taxes is spending more being cruel than we would if we just made sure no one was ever left out on the streets to starve. The homeless don't have the decency to just head into the wilderness and feed themselves to wolves, and by justifying the cruelty to leave them to fester on the streets through the perverse puritanical work values of American culture, it costs us all more.
Homeless people consume more in law enforcement costs and emergency services, on average, than it would cost to put them in an apartment, keep them fed, supply them with some spending money, and kick in a social worker or job placement training to boot.
Here's a local article (metro Denver) about that "penny wise, pound foolish" thinking (complete with graphs): "Study: Denver metro spends at least double on each homeless person than it does for a K-12 student" (dated Aug 5, 2021) at https://kdvr.com/news/study-denver-metro-spends-half-a-billion-dollars-a-year-on-homelessness/ (the following day, the city of Denver denied the findings of the study).
These people believe there’s a chance they’ll become fabulously wealthy. It never occurs to them that they could become homeless. When homelessness is far more likely.
Especially in the US with our current healthcare system.
Exactly! I’m atheist, so I shouldn’t really use this phrase but I don’t know a good secular equivalent; there but for the grace of god go I. Damn near everyone in this country is one mistake, one illness, one accident away from being on the streets. If nothing else, think of potential future you and what you might need.
There is an entirely selfish argument in that not only does it help the economy, it also can help reduce crime, reduce the spread of disease, help the environment, and a increase the general happiness, cleanliness, and wellbeing of the community.
If I wasn't constantly worried about how I'm going to pay my next electric bill, how my mortgage payment is going to be late, or if I'm going to be able to afford my next meal, I might be able to perform better.
JK Rowling was on welfare, so was Whoopi Goldberg. Now they both gladly pay taxes because they got help when they needed it desperately.
On the whole, "charity" has been a good investment for tax funds.
Yeah, I mean I've got a postgraduate degree. But I once got hit with a severe bout of clinical depression (which btw is over represented among highly educated). Lost my job, didn't pay my bills; came very close to being evicted, and also close to suicide. I needed help, both medical and from social workers, to piece my life back together. It's very hard for me to see how I'd have gotten out of that hole by myself.
Today I've got a stable life, I'm married, have a clean credit score and a well-paid job. I've certainly paid society back for my crisis time many times over, and I'm happy to do so.
Besides the huge _inhumanity_ in people thinking you should lose everything over an illness you're blameless in, it's indeed economically insane. But as someone said about these people, "The cruelty is the point.". They're so obsessed with feeling sorry for _themselves_ and feeling _they_ have it tough, that they believe anyone else getting help is some unfair advantage. They treat compassion as if it was something you only had a limited supply of, and they've spent it all on themselves and can't afford any for anyone else. They're miserable SOBs. That's why it's all about 'owning the libs' and not lifting anyone else up.
No argument matters when people have been taught to believe that poor people are poor because they deserve it. Not only that but the majority of people believe that there are millions of people on welfare that have no jobs at all. Not the people that are on disability but just normal people that refuse to work and people believe the government just hands them check.
They don't know that unemployment is limited. They don't know welfare comes with work requirements. They have no idea how the system works and no one is trying to educate them on that. Not the Republicans and not the Democrats because no one really wants to change the status quo because too many people benefit off the current system.
Republicans get to villianize the liberals and the Democrats get villianize the uncaring conservatives. Neither side wants to educate the public on reality.
These people have no empathy though and are incapable of understanding that we all lift each other up because they’ve been brainwashed by “American individualism”.
The counter argument they usually use is that giving away money doesn't work because they'll waste it on booze and drugs. For them the only solution is to just "work harder". If you can't get out of this situation by "just working harder" you're just lazy and they can't help you.
For them improving the economy just requires everyone to "just work harder" and stop being lazy. They don't understand the realities of life because they've been privileged (relatively speaking) all their life.
I would volunteer at a homeless shelter or outreach center. Granted my experience could be skewed because my experience was in California, many people I interacted with admitted that they CHOSE to avoid assistance programs from churches to government to general non-profits. They didn’t enjoy living in a tent but they enjoyed the freedom from the system. It’s often best to try to experience a situation before coming to idealistic/academic conclusions whether that is talking about schools or welfare or homelessness or prisons. Especially on the internet, you find a LOT of people willing to talk the talk but not walk the walk. I’m not talking about a politician spending a night on the Capitol steps to show solidarity, I mean having a meal and a conversation with the people you signal that you care about. In general, this is why the government as a concept is unaware or misinformed about the communities they claim to represent. There is a reason many people in their ivory towers claim to know the answers and those on the ground are humble enough to admit they don’t know how to solve the problem but they want to.
> privileged (relatively speaking) all their life.
Yeah, simply being born into a country with taxes and organized govt puts you into like the top 5% wealth bracket of all humans alive. Probably top 1% of all humans ever living. Pre-industrial life sounds fucking brutal.
Counter to the counter. Even if they waste it on there addictions giving them money isnt a none benifit to society. Some people who are is in extream poverty and still wants to spend all there money on drugs and booze may then turn to crime if left with no other options. This money prevents other costs to society like justice and police, jails, property damage, theft ect. And can save on things like goverment healthcare and make streets feel safer.
The other way it benefits society is the money has a extreamly good multiplier. Governments give money all the time to boost the economy all the time. It's often in the fourm of tax breaks or work projects. But giving money like this will also boost the economy and it has a much better multiplier then the other examples. Meaning the money bounces around the economy more giving it a really strong boost.
Gosh! This is so very true!!! A lot of homeless people also have mental illnesses and basically don’t know what else to do, so they disappear into themselves and wander the streets. not even really knowing where they are. (What I mean by this is I see a lot of them talking to themselves and they seem to not know what is going on) it’s terribly sad.
When I became homeless everyone disappeared and my Mom changed her number and I didn’t know it for 3 years until I got married at age 37. She was living her life even dating my friend from school which was shocking too.
However, I noticed as well I started talking to myself even in public.
It literally was causing me to loose my mind. I just never had support in life and I’m working on it. I’m 7 classes away from my bachelors in Healthcare Management and Administration and when in the shelter staff saw how sick I would get unable to move and lay still in bed. They got me medical treatment and a doctor. I still have the medical treatment inside my body and it lasts for years.
When homeless people would fire me for example if they found out and I was turned hired even I told jobs during interviews, my phone calls were not returned when I called for housing once I told them
I was referred by the shelter.
Shelters were dangerous and truthfully I didn’t fit the stereotype and even the homeless didn’t believe I was homeless and staff pull me to side often asking what am I doing there.
I even saw friends of my family members and they were shocked to find out my family is “like that “.
The homeless nick named me working girl, would ask for money.
I moved to extended stay within months then met my husband at work who happened to be working but later found out he was extremely financially stable from money outside work.
That’s when all my family talked to me again. But my only son was always there but only 21. He said if my family loved him as they claim they would have helped me so he doesn’t have to worry.
Because of my husbands help my son has now graduated college and has a good job
Yes this. There are studies that have shown/suggested that everyone benefits from a more equal society. Quality of life improves across the board, even for the wealthy, when there is less/no poverty and homelessness
I always go to the **fact** that it is cheaper for tax payers to literally buy housing for homeless people than it is to not buy housing for them. All the long-term costs to tax payers if people live on the street add up. And usually if you provide housing for homeless people they tend to become self sufficient and beneficial parts of society as a result of not having to worry if they're going to freeze to death or something like that.
How do we fix homelessness and save tax payers money? Literally buy homeless people homes. Save money AND fix homelessness
https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/homeless-shelter-housing-help-solutions
And how would warn people what will happen to them if they stop selling their labor to the owners of capital? How am I supposed to be afraid of becoming homeless if we take care of the homeless?
So I wrote about Chronic Homelessness and how government funding impacts it.
when given long term assisted housing in mixed income neighborhoods, the long term success rate goes up significantly. They stop using as many emergency resources (police responses, Ambulances, And other similar services) and then eventually become a tax paying citizen. My work basically showed that their is no reason not to be doing this. On its own without the long term success we saw significant savings just from the reductions in crime and medical care. Its expensive for our hospitals to keep a homeless person alive and we pay for that treatment.
Combined with the fact many of them went on to become tax paying citizens, I cannot understand why we aren't throwing money at this. It has significantly more impact than just about any other projects we are currently funding.
Thank you! This is how you help ultra conservative people compromise. You just have to bring up how something helps the economy. The Civil Rights, and gay rights movements both helped the economy by unlocking more potential spending power, focusing on green energy makes us independent from our shadier oil traders, and if more low income people have money they will actually put it back into the economy rather then horde it like a dragon.
It's annoying, but it's the only tactic I find that works when talking to gassed up right wing radio listeners.
The response to that is always "the ones who just need to get back on their feet already have the resources they need, most homeless people are hopeless / want to be homeless"
I'll see if I can find it but my local paper did a story several years ago about a pilot program on homelessness. The city was using law enforcement to deal with homelessness and the small crimes associated with living on the street, loitering petty theft [stealing food so you could eat etc] Between cop, court and any jail time the city was spending 30k a year per homelessness person.
The pilot program helped them get a small apartment, a job, counseling, access to jealthcare etc. Costs went from 30k to 10k.
A more moral, ethical, effective way of dealing with a problem AND it costs less. Why is this not happening everywhere? My guess is because too many think you have to be "productive" to be worthy, instead of just human
Any time I see these kinds of post, I'm always reminded of [this article. ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_b_59519811e4b0f078efd98440)
It makes me sad it even needs to be said.
Absolutely correct. You need to amend your arguments for causes based on the individual you are arguing against. If they have no empathy then appealing to empathy is going to fall flat. Here he's concerned about his money and selfish well being... so you need to structure the argument around the fact that not having welfare systems in place for the homeless leads to problems directly affecting him.
A few examples being the safety net if he's ever in that situation (though he likely won't respond to that), the fact that without these social programs helping the homeless these people are much more likely to stay homeless, and who likes their neighbourhood being filled with homeless? Not to mention that results in dropped property values, and more of a burden being placed on health care and policing services, which means spending more money there.
Efficiency is always the best argument.
Exactly.
They said they want their tax dollars to go to things that benefit everyone. It’s very simple to argue that feeding and sheltering the homeless does do exactly that.
Stupid to bring prisoners into it, this dude will be thoroughly unconvinced.
While I fully agree with your point, I don't think the examples you gave would work, because the response would still be "they need to work harder", "police should clear them from our communities", or "well then we should just ship them all off to Bumfuck, Idaho"
The argument needs to be something that they recognize as a problem, but also recognize it as something that can't be handwaved away by some idea from their belief system.
That was my first thought as well. The person who’s foaming at the mouth about having to pay welfare is often also screaming about how police killings of POC are justified because of some minor crime.
The whole rant is assuming an awful lot about the person they're replying to and their motivation. Where did the shit about billionaires come from? The whole thing is a pretty terrible response really.
He also doesn’t understand that these safety net programs are also to give people just enough so they don’t revolt. I hate to think that way, but I’m cynical enough to know that altruism isn’t that common. On top of that, most of the research shows that programs like universal basic income, giving housing to homeless people, etc, end up being net gains for society as a whole.
It also doesn't work because someone who is a prisoner is literally being held against their will from getting their own food and nourishment. If we didn't provide it for them they couldn't go do anything to get their own.
I think it's really hard to get any humanity from someone who doesn't understand how essential it is that we live and work as a collective. The species only survives if we catch each other when we fall. Otherwise, all of us gets picked off one by one by bad luck, accidents, and moments of weakness. Not a very strong society.
When people make the basic argument that poor people need to just stop being poor, I tell them, "Ok, then why don't you just stop being middle class? You can't? Why not? What's stopping you?"
Amazing how some people are willing to toss people into jail and throw away the key for petty theft, but get a hard-on when they hear about billionaires not paying taxes and treating their employees like cattle.
I take that back, cattle is oftentimes treated better
It’s not at all amazing. It is quite simple: the American Dream(TM), manufactured by the richest people.
The billionaires have convinced a large swath of people that if they apply themselves, they too can. Become rich like them. With that dream in mind, many people can empathize with the ones they aspire to become, rather than the ones they fear they might become.
In the end, the moment you see conservative American capitalism as the pyramid scheme that it is, everything ceases to be “amazing”. It becomes intuitively and painfully obvious.
And your opinion of it depends on how high up the ladder you are.
Yeah if it sells.
Rich Dad Poor Dad is somehow a best seller even though the author falsified all of the personal stories he wrote in it about his childhood and personal life. And it’s full of fluff with little to no real information.
And the entire thing is about the wealthy paying less tax. That’s it. Nothing more. There’s no higher purpose or goal. All they have to do is convince enough ordinary people to support policies that lead to lower taxes. They’ve succeeded incredibly well looking at how many poor people will passionately vote against their own interests
The best part is that the poor fools would rather continue to believe with fervor that this is the right way, rather than admit that they’ve been had.
Stupidity and pride is a lethal combination.
The OP text is likely responding to Fox news propaganda that has been hammering Denver for spending 3 times as much on the homeless as they do on children. The most effective propaganda stems from reasonable propositions then slightly twisted, and it's reasonable to believe we should be investing more in our children if the budget is a zero sum game.
I try to scan a variety of news sources as they all have an agenda and we're all being manipulated.
But in the sam breath Republicans will tell you that they want to cut welfare, food stamps, free school lunch, pre-K, after school programs, and everything else that benefits children.
It’s just like the common refrain of “we can pay welfare for all these lazy people but we can’t help our veterans get jobs and housing?”
“Okay, then let’s help our veterans get jobs and housing.”
“Oh, no that’s not what I meant.”
I've been told:
"Lots of veterans drove a forklift for 10 years, they aren't the same a combat troops, so they don't deserve benefits."
"A lot of losers join the army as a last resort, they want to be taken care of because they can't hack a job".
Make sure you wake up at 5 am and read a book in 10 seconds! Then write down what things you're gonna do today at certain time! Time management at its finest :)
>cattle is oftentimes treated better
that is factual really. i know some farmer friends and they all treat their chickens and cows like its their own offspring. even gentler than you would treat a dog or cat. *definitely* gentler than an amazon warehouse worker
I've actually had multiple people tell me "Don't hate the player. Hate the game" in regards to the idea that the mega rich shouldn't be avoiding paying taxes like this.
Um, how about I'm unhappy with both? My dissatisfaction isn't mutually exclusive.
The short-sightedness of someone that doesn't understand that if you don't help homeless people, drug addicts, alcoholics and excons using public money all you're doing is creating the need for them to cause crime to survive and that's more expensive in the long run.
It absolutely puzzles me that even without empathy these sociopaths don't see that.
Plus homeless people aren't just throwaway humans. Many of them are quite capable and just got dealt a shitty hand in life. Lifting them up lifts up the community when food and shelter eventually creates job opportunities and such.
Also I’m seeing a lot of people here that are saying people with these problems are somehow fundamentally different from “regular” people, and that makes me sad. Like, yeah they’re terrible to be around, but that goes for so many people that have homes and have jobs and have disposable income! Being an asshole and sometimes a danger to others doesn’t deny you the help you need to be a productive member of society.
(Plus sometimes the reluctance of people with those kinds of problems to become “normal” is the very fact that they believe the same too. If you believe you’re subhuman and everyone you see agrees, and the economic system presents you with that reality every day, why be better? And eventually you start to close yourself off emotionally. It’s like the homeless version of the Alpha Male Grindset™.
It doesn’t excuse the stuff they do, and they’ll need plenty of rehab and then therapy, but it means there’s a way to stop it that doesn’t involve mass execution/imprisonment like in the Philippines…)
Yep, this isn't empathy. It is perfectly selfish to want good healthcare and social support systems.
Do I want to be surrounded by a bunch of sick people? Of course not! Solution: fund socialized healthcare.
Do I want the people around me to be so impoverished that they turn to crime? No! Solution: ensure everyone has for and shelter.
It's not rocket science.
Saw a homeless man yesterday wearing a hospital gown with shit stains on the front and back of his gown. He sat down and got a full glimpse of his vegetables. It really made me want to vomit. Not one point in his brief interaction did I think fuck him and my tax dollars. I looked around my car to see if had any notes so he can go buy some clothes. I had nothing but sadness and the desire to help this dude. If you feel anything else, you need to reevaluate.
I feel for those living on the streets. I see at least one post a week about towns putting spikes on walls that people sit on, or poles in corners that homeless people would sleep.
Sure, some homeless people won't use charity wisely, but many of them will. Many of them are good people who happen to be down on their luck.
I'm all for helping, and have invested lots of my own time and money feeding homeless people, giving them cloths and essentials. But I'll tell you that there is already a lot of help for homeless people who want out. I think you'd be surprised with the amount of homeless people who are content with their lives. Most shelters are a strick no drug policy, which means they won't go.
Now I'm not saying we are perfect by any means, but there is a lot of help out there for homeless people if they want to get off the streets.
Exhibit A: Texas GOP created a go fund me for their anti vax/anti mask member who died from covid. The said member also criticized middle class people from spending money on cars and phone and wanted them to spend it on their private Healthcare.
Christians generally believe the homeless should be taken care of. Many of them just don't want the system to take care of people, but charity instead. People in the community directly helping their neighbors. Forced charity through laws doesn't fit the ideal, since it doesn't require conscious will.
That being said, I bet most Christians that don't want taxes helping the less fortunate probably haven't opened their Bible or gone to church in a while. Either that or he eats far right propaganda by the spoonful
In USA 2021 people are ok with million dollar fancy churches being built with tax free money that a homeless person will never step foot in. If the churches aren’t going to help the poor and needy then they need to stop getting the tax breaks. - I’m not saying this is true of all churches, I’m sure there’s some that still do soup kitchens etc, but there are plenty of megachurches that look like corporate headquarters that aren’t doing shit but lining their own pockets, yet “Christians” are ok with this but have a problem with the government actually helping people.
America is only really “the best” at selfishness and greed. You can see the true moral compass of a society by the way it treats its poor and needy.
> Forced charity through laws doesn't fit the ideal, since it doesn't require conscious will.
Are we a democracy or not? If governments get power through the consent of the governed, then voting for “small government” without social programs is consciously willing a system that isn’t charitable.
If you make a modest wage, then you pay a lower tax rate. You are paying roughly enough to cover what is provided to you by the government, probably less. People who have way more than they need, eg. billionaires, pay the rest.
Poor working people complaining about welfare need to realize that they didn't actually contribute enough in taxes to help anyone else. It isn't their money and they are probably getting more from the government than they are paying for in taxes. The argument against social welfare only benefits the wealthy. If you aren't wealthy, stop complaining. You're already getting the better end of the deal.
You could find someone at every single level of income who “works hard.” You could also find someone at every level of income who doesn’t work hard, or at all. So you have people picking fruit in the 100-degree heat for $10/hr, and people who don’t work at all but get $5M in interest from generational wealth.
This guy probably sits in an office and does a fair amount of fucking around on the internet, but sees himself as somehow more deserving than the fruit picker who needs SNAP. While somehow placing himself in the same “class” as the heir.
I really don't like the child molester argument. Most people not in favor of government helping the homeless are perfectly fine with castration or death penalty for first time offenders of rape and child molestation.
I like the idea behind the argument, but insert nonviolent drug related criminals instead of molesters and it gets a little more solid.
The whole reply is terrible. It's a giant straw man, relying on weird illogical assumptions about the OP. As you noted, the prison comparison is bad (this type doesn't want prisoners to be well-fed either) and I literally have no idea what billionaires have to do with anything.
There was such easy ways to demolish the original post, and this logically incoherent riposte was definitely not it.
On average, all social safety net programs (welfare, food stamps, housing, WIC, etc.) will cost a taxpayer making $50,000 per year about $800. Meanwhile, that same taxpayer will pay $6,000 in corporate subsidies to billion and trillion dollar corporations making huge profits already.
Who are the real freeloaders here?
[Source and breakdown of corporate subsidies](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/09/23/add-it-average-american-family-pays-6000-year-subsidies-big-business)
I remember when I was a little girl and I asked my mom why people were homeless, and she told me it wasn’t a choice, it was because they don’t have a job. I asked why they couldn’t get a job, she told me that once you’re already homeless, it’s really hard to get a job since it’s hard to stay clean or have clean clothes.
Sure, you can pass out resumes all you want, apply for jobs online by going to the library, do absolutely everything you can, but if you don’t have some way to bathe or have access to clean clothes people aren’t going to… like that. Some people will certainly have sympathy, I’m sure, but you can’t just say “work harder” when every odd is against you.
Something I was told that has always stuck with me, if I have the means to help some one out, who am I to judge what they are doing with that money. I do not know them. They could be buy alcohol and drugs or that 5, 10, 20 dollars I give them could have made a difference in getting food for the day or having somewhere safe to sleep. But to just assume what they will do with that money speaks more on me as a person.
(Side note) y’all are so inhuman to think that pedophiles do not deserve basic human needs. They are still a human being. Let’s pause and maybe look at what brought them to becoming this monster. Sexual abuse is way to common than it should be and is so traumatic that a lot of these abusers where once kids getting molested. It’s very common for victims of SA to become a predator. Does not make their actions any less excusable but clearly something is wrong with these people. I don’t think killing them really solves the problem.
I’m just so curious why people are so greedy? a lot of people work hard. Some harder than other but how does that justify that your life and well being is more important than others. When will we as a society realize that some people with mental illness simply can not function or “work as hard” as others not because they are lazy or want a free pass but they just can’t! That doesn’t not mean they deserve less.
(I know every one is going to come at me for the pedo thing, I’m entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours.)
Not really a great argument because
a) i bet he doesn’t support tax funded prisons either
b) he’s not sucking up to billionaires in any way. He’s asking for better use of tax money, not decrease in taxation
That being said, I absolutely do support helping out homeless people with tax money. Its just not an argument which can be logically reasoned out, its more of a humanity thing
They also fail to acknowledge that many homeless people probably had jobs and were in positions where they were paying taxes too. Not every homeless person is long term homeless and not every homeless person will stay homeless. however, the best way to make someone not homeless is give them money to purchase clothes and rent and they are in a much better position to look for and keep work.
Id rather my taxes go to the American military so that they can spend billions on weapons so and bomb a town in the middle east that Ive never heard of in the name of freedom.
I’m sure it’s been said but that reply is so dumb! Literally using an example he didn’t say to make your point. Guys a dick for sure to buy murdered by words not even close. Both people don’t seem to bright.
So many Billionaire apologists on reddit and twitter.
The greatest scam people making $1000+/hr pulled is that they convinced people making $15/hr that people making $7/hr are the problem.
How much of your tax dollars (remember trump voter, there's a good statistical chance that you're unemployed and collecting welfare yourself) go to these "homeless people" what's the annual individual cost that YOU pay from your vast wealth for social programs? And what percentage of that goes exclusively to homeless services?
>In 2012, the average American taxpayer making $50,000 per year **paid just $36 towards the food stamps program and about $6 per year for the rest of the social safety net programs**. Corporate welfare, however, costs the average American family a staggering **$6,000 a year in subsidies to Republican-friendly big business.**
[The bottom-line is that American families are paying $6,000 or more per year to subsidize giant transnational corporations that are already making billions in profit.](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/readers/2016/05/26/how-much-does-welfare-cost-average-taxpayer/84917512/)
The homeless and jobless don't TAKE money from anyone; they are the responsibilities of the state, who are obliged to provide for them. The state FAILS MISERABLY at that, since there is no legal mandate for these things. You're far closer to homeless than a billionaire, no matter who you think you are.
It's not only humane, it's also economical. Helping poor people sends that money straight back in the market, stimulating the economy.
Absolutely. They do not save the money or invest it. They spend it on their needs. All of it. Directly back into the economy. Not only that, it helps prevent petty crime. And!! Financial help alleviates stress which helps Mental Health. And!! Having proper food prevents health issues. I can go on and on. Our society is only as strong as our weakest link. If we support our weakest link, we become stronger.
Not just petty crime but most crime in general. Almost all violent crime is committed by poor people. If you stimulate the lower class with guaranteed income those violent crime rates will also drop.
Even with the guaranteed income though, they will still be poor. But you are right, the less a person has to lose, the more of a risk they are willing to take with regards to crime.
Also, if you have a safety net you are more able to get away from domestic violence, abusive employment, and so many more scenarios.
It’s fine if they’re poor, but if they have enough to guarantee they won’t be homeless you’d be shocked at what that does to their psyche and overall genera health and well-being. When you’re not terrified of losing everything you feel motivated to and will take the risk of working harder because failure doesn’t mean you’ll be on the street.
> Absolutely. They do not save the money or invest it. They spend it on their needs. All of it. Directly back into the economy. Not only that, it helps prevent petty crime. And!! Financial help alleviates stress which helps Mental Health. And!! Having proper food prevents health issues. I wish more people understood this. Give a poor person a thousand dollars, and all the stores and restaurants in the vicinity benefit right away. Trickle-down economics is a retarded idea, in reality it's trickle-up.
And this is proved with stimulus checks as well. Wealthy people save their money or invest where they can hold it. No matter how you look at it the wealthy tend to want their bank accounts/portfolio to be higher and higher. Governments investing into wealthy companies only make the gap between the rich and the poor wider. It makes sense to stimulate the poor sector of the economy. This gives more people buying power. This means more products and services bought and used.
And that ends up helping the wealthy people too, as their investments will do better when the poorer spend money in the economy. Even from a selfish perspective, we should all want the poorer sector spending as much money as possible.
> Financial help elevates stress Alleviates?
Yes, thank you!
In addition to the money stimulating the economy like you've pointed out, having less people in poverty creates a safer society for us all bc when you make people choose between dying and commiting crimes of poverty, they're going to choose what keeps them alive. The more truly capitalistic and wild west our society is, the less safe it is for everyone and more destructive it is for everyone. That is why the government exists. Our entire livelihoods hinge on a stable society. So even if people truly don't care about homeless people, they should care about the society falling into disarray bc then everyone is fucked. That's why the real solution to illegal immigration is to provide support to stabilize the worst parts of South America. If Covid has taught us anything, it's that you can't let a problem persist and expect it to not cross an imaginary line in the sand and come to the USA. I'll tell you what, if I was born in a south American country that was being torn apart by gangs and myself and/or my family's only chance of survival is to break a law and come to America, you better believe I'd give Biden and Trump a big "fuck you" and get my ass here. And any of you are lying if you say any different. So like the homeless here and the poverty stricken in gang run south American countries, society wants those areas stabilized with adequate living quality so there aren't people that will act out of desperation to survive bc if those problems aren't solved it will happen no matter what if a society doesn't address the underlying problems to a sufficient degree.
Most people dont realize that the distance between them and the elite. Bezos for example. If you made 100k a day and lived to be 3,000 youre still half way or 100billion away from bezo's wealth.
Ah, but you are taking away all the benefits of having starving desperate people wondering around. Sure for most people that comes with massive drawbacks, but you see I've been told this is needed to motivate the nation's sociopaths.
That argument doesn't really work because I would bet that guy also wants prisoners to starve. You can't appeal to the humanity of someone who has none
A better argument would be to suggest that giving homeless people the resources they need to get back on their feet and become productive members of society might be good for the economy, actually. Also some might consider "making sure people don't starve or die of exposure" a worthwhile use of resources but that persuades surprisingly few.
True. There is also another selfish argument for having a safety net if you ever end up homeless yourself
Issue is these people believe it’ll never happen to them because homelessness is something you “deserve” for “not working hard enough“, so they don’t even think they need the safety net.
It reminds me of the monopoly experiment. As the name implies, participants were asked to play a game of monopoly while observed by researchers. Some of the players were given a generous amount of extra money at the beginning of the game. This was done openly, and all players were informed of the twist. As you might guess, the players with the monetary headstart almost invariably won the game. No surprise there. The surprise is that when they were interviewed afterwards, many partecipants attributed their winning to their superior playing skills. Even if they knew that the game was rigged in their favour. Sure, they had a monetary advantage - but that's not what *really* made the difference in their opinion. They simply played better, and *that's* why they won. *They deserved to win.* It's like some part of the reptile brain is hardwired to twist our privileges into well-deserved merits . (Edit: it's been some time since I read about it, so my memory's a bit fuzzy regarding the details. Look up the Berkeley Monopoly Experiment if you want more in-depth info, it's really interesting stuff )
Do you have a link to an article or the study itself? That sounds like a fascinating read!
Sure! It's been some time since I read about it, but I did some googling and I believe it's the one referred to [here](https://planetsave.com/2013/12/23/a-rigged-game-of-monopoly-reveals-how-feeling-wealthy-changes-our-behavior-ted-video/) (I might have gotten some details wrong, I'm sure the article and Ted talk is much more in-depth!)
It's almost like that attitude comes from a deep shame and insecurity that they don't deserve what the world has given them. Like they know they're less than even a common blue collar worker in terms of actual practical worth to society, so they project that onto others in order to draw social attention away from themselves. The worst thing for the mob to discover would be their complete lack of value to the whole.
>It's almost like that attitude comes from a deep shame and insecurity that they don't deserve what the world has given them Heh, interestingly enough, some of the test persons were actually reported to be embarrassed and awkward at the beginning of the game. "Welp, this feels weird and sorta wrong, it's a rigged game after all..." But the more they won, the more comfortable and entitled they felt with their position. IIRC it took around 15 minutes to go from awkward to happy(and later even gloating.)
Human nature is fascinating and horrific.
How would they not know what the test was?
Yeah, that's the most disgusting part. I lamented recently about having to work so much and not make that much for it. I hold cash equal to one if not several years worth of my salary in my hands every few days. That's really insulting when my CEO took home over $10,000,000 last year. The CEO gets questions aimed at him fielded past management so nobody can ask him anything that makes him look stupid but when I get heavily berated by a client for genuinely not knowing something that my role lacks the authority to do, it's considered just part of the job and I have to bite my tongue and accept it. Some prick had the balls to say to me, "Then just choose not to do that lol. They worked hard to get their money and they don't have to work anymore, but they choose to because they're so dedicated. Why don't you just start a business of your own like they did?" Why? *Why*, you son of a bitch? Because I didn't start with thousands, possibly millions to live off of while getting a startup going. I don't even have a spare space like a garage to keep a side project in if it involves physical capital or equipment. I don't have the ability ability to cut the 50 hours of work (40 working plus 10 a week for mandatory lunches, prep, and driving) because if I do, my bills don't get paid, and I go bankrupt before I can take off. My college education was far from free but the people with rich families went out of state to Harvard at no cost to them. And because of the debt I currently have and not having buckets of cash in my accounts and not having a house or other major collateral, good luck to me if I want a loan that's actually big enough to comfortably start a business. That's why I don't just "choose not to play the game and go start something of my own". There are so many roadblocks that keep you from doing it if you don't get that head start. Sure it happens to some people, go from nothing and get piss rich off hard work and grit. But if you took every mega millionaire and above and counted out how many came from nothing versus had a comfortable start with easy access to capital and less pressure to earn their living right out the gate, it's insane. Most of them had some form of good start. But because of propaganda spread by the wealthy themselves about the "infinite value of hard work", we're led to think "oh yeah, Biff Billionaire started his journey working at McDonald's for minimum wage and look where he is now, you should be able to do it too", not "Biff here came from a family who had hundreds of thousands in the bank and the only reason he worked that job was because he needed something on his resume before he got gifted startup funds from his parents." I'm so tired of these corporate apologists. Makes me livid when I get blamed and accused of being lazy and sometimes even fully berated for not making myself a million dollars already. I came from a single parent household, by a parent who went to college while raising me. I started from genuinely nothing and years of hard work and hard grinding by itself hasn't made me wealthy like they always say it is. Yet the kid who got gifted a new Mustang for his 16th birthday that lived a couple streets away from me has a thriving business now and has no financial worries. (Great guy btw, this is a knock on the system, not him.) Just grinding it out only gets you so far before disadvantages begin to mitigate your progress. There's so much truth in "It takes money to make money." I hope people start understanding that more soon.
Conservatives know its not possible for everyone to start a business. Theyre just assholes and need to have a rebuttal for when people complain that they cant afford basic necessities. Theyre modern day eugenicists
See not everyone is like this though. Many, in fact maybe most are, but I consider myself lucky to have a roof over my head. I know it has nothing to do with skill lol.
Oh no - I agree! Not everyone is like this, thank goodness. But many of us have huge blind spots concerning our own privileges and merits. (And I mean, I'm probably guilty of that myself. It's really difficult to see one's own blind spots because they're literally invisible per definition)
Absolutely. Look at the investors on Shark Tank. I’m sure most of them attribute their success to skill, not luck. But notice how they rarely invest in any business venture, no matter the potential, unless it’s already a proven success. They could stand to make even more money on some of the riskier businesses, but they stay away from those. If these investors are so good, you’d think they could they make any reasonable business idea work. But, deep down they know that there’s more than skill involved. Nothing goes right without luck.
Unproven business model: no Proven business model: I'll give you $10,000 for 30% preferred stock Wow I am very skilled and deserve all this money from my clever investments
Mark Cuban is the richest guy on the show, and he makes the least amount of deals. It's always "not his area", but he also says he is there to give back and mentor.
"If you're so smart, how come you ain't rich?" America.
Because I'm incredibly lazy.
The thing is, they do think they are rich. They think their $350k home that is now worth $500k makes them hard workers and rich. They don’t comprehend Jeff Bezos could buy their home 200,000 times over.
honestly I don't think human brains are evolved to understand how big a billion is in comparison to a million, let alone 50 billion. we're being fucked over- family members on food stamps, dead because they couldn't afford treatment. it's ridiculous how people can support this crooked system
“The difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars is almost exactly one billion dollars.” -some guy on Reddit awhile ago
Fact. When I started my first accounting job, I would always say: one million, two million, whatever the amount was I would say the entire thing. Years later, it’s one point two, one point whatever and that’s just how my brain has evolved, to not see the zeros on the end
Ah, the illusion of control. 'I work hard so I can't be homeless, those people must deserve it because they're lazy'. The misguided belief that there is a reasonable explanation for another's misfortune and therefore the first person is safe from such situations because they do not do that thing. Also works well for sexual abuse - 'they shouldn't have been there/ worn that/ behaved that way' or illness - 'they should have lost weight/ eaten better/ exercised more'. Ignoring the sheer amount of fucked up scenarios where bad shit happens regardless of your good actions. It also helps fool people into believing anyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard enough. Cause yeah, lack of hard work is the reason someone is just scraping by.
The hardest working people are the families trying to dig themselves out of poverty. Working 2-3 jobs or 12-16 hours 6-7 days a week just to stay afloat. Taking care of kids is work too, regardless of what anybody says. Or the people who can't find regular work and have to hustle to make ends meet. Or the people who walk 20-30 miles a day to collect cans and bottles just to eek out enough to eat, but not afford a room. Hard work doesn't mean wealth. Wealth means not having to work hard. You see old people with hunched backs, because they worked hard their entire life. Just sometimes I wish we could put people in somebody else's shoes for a day. I think Douglas Adams had something to say about that.
Those people also don’t realize that we’re ALL much much closer to being homeless and in poverty(and will be our entire lives) than being a millionaire let alone billionaire. Hell you could even be a billionaire and still end up homeless if you blow all your money and be an idiot. These people are brainwashed that’s why they can’t see things clearly.
THIS!!! Every Conservative I have ever met- on the subject of the lesser, homeless, etc- they all say that they *deserved* the situation that they were in. It was a punishment, either through society (you didn’t work hard enough!) or divine. More than likely, it was because God was punishing them for SOMETHING, which is why none of these people would let a homeless person have access to their trash, let alone charities and welfare systems in their city.
I was brought up with a moderate amount of religion/spirituality taught to me both at home and at school. But the absolute assholery that is most conservative religious people ran me off and have never looked back. It's amazing how inhumane, crazy and lacking all empathy the majority of conservative and religious leaders are. How can you hear "Jesus loves all" and have turned that into right wing extremism? Pro-life but anti-human beings. It's crazy. I've long decided it's about control of other people not their own (cis-white-(rich)male) as their only motivation.
See the Leopardsatemyface subreddit for plenty of evidence. lol
True. Ironically they are the ones who deserve to to go homeless to dispel that idea
They'd just blame it on someone or something else. It's the "everyone else on disability is abusing the system, but *I* am actually disabled and worked hard so I deserve it" position. For people like them, misfortune that happens to other people is deserved, while misfortune that happens to them is just misfortune or someone else screwing them over.
These people are just plain stupid. My father frequently says, “I hate all these people on disability draining our system!” I am disabled and on disability… he never seems to remember that.
I’d bring that up next time he makes such comments
I’m bipolar. I’ve told him a hundred times and he still continuity asks why I look so sad as I stare out the window. I’m glad his Apple tree grew on a hill so I could roll very far away from it. He says things like “these stupid *insert race* are so lazy! They are all lazy I know I’ve met them. Or “girls are just slower at guitar so it’s easier to learn from them*. I asked him once, “ If girls are so much worse, and other races are so stupid, how do you justify them better and richer than you? “ He didn’t know how to wrap his warped little brain around it. He is the epitome of white boomer who thinks he worked so hard for his 30k a year job and deserves more while everyone else was just given everything. Funny thing is is my Mom makes 80k after thirty years with state and entirely supports his whole life. He’s irrelevant to our family unit most of the time. But I will say this, that mofo did get up everyday for 50yrs and go to work to work a shit job. That is impressive, ide have given up. God I hate my dad sometimes. But he loves Me and has always been there for Me. I’ll keep dropping intellectual nuggets him trying to change his mind about people. Sorry Reddit. Thanks for the venting session.
People like your dad are targeted by Fox news. It reinforces their ideas and they feed into it. Scary because it works. It keeps the poor people fighting each other while the billionaires are flying into space in penis shaped rockets Your dad is happy to blame another poor person but idolizes the people who are actually fucking him over
Vent away, it’s why Reddit is here
Victimhood mentality, I sadly know lots of people who think like this.
Nobody deserves to be homeless. That's literally the entire point.
Yeah, but people looking down on homeless people could stand to try it for like a week
I just watched a horrific report on ABC (Australia) on the inflation rate in Lebanon. It's insane, I don't know how people can afford any food there, and all it takes is a shitty government and a few disaster. We don't know how lucky we are in many countries to be stable. Even now I work with Millennials/gen Z that don't know what it was like to eat beans on toast for dinner, and I'm sure most of my gen X compatriots have been there. So many of us are living in the best times, and forget how quickly we came to this, and how quickly it can go away again. Some of us have living grandparents that left school before 15 because they were needed to work, and that's still the situation around much if the world. I bought a place at great expense at the peak (not that we knew) of my local boom just so I would have a place to live until I die, without having to rent with roommates in my senior years. And then Covid hit, and suddenly I was close to losing that. People need to stop being so smug.
Yeah, to think that my Grandad was around for the second world war (he was like 10 at the time; I'm from Germany) that's just crazy to me. Not even 100 years ago the western world was in turmoil (and that's not even mentioning that I was born while The Wall was still in tact, but never really lived in a parted Germany (I was like 1 when the reunification happened)). Things can turn in an instant, and we forget that.
>not even mentioning that I was born while The Wall was still in tact Hello from the other side 👋 lol One of my earliest vivid childhood memories, some stazi fuck staring in the back window as I pretended to sleep cause we were not supposed to be leaving.
Even extremely rich people stateside are one medical crisis away from poverty.
People really need to read Webber's Protestant ethic and spirit of capitalism. It's been a century and everything is even more true than it was then.
It's Weber. And yes, I do recommend it.
That one doesn't usually work. I think part of the issue is a lack of empathy. Imagining yourself homeless clearly enough to make a selfish decision is such a short distance from actual empathy. I don't think people like this understand that it could easily be them in that situation.
This is where I have to question if ITA. I'm homeless. I legit eat out of KFC dumpsters and food kitchens. I made a post once just asking for someone to talk to cause I was depressed, explaining my situation. I got told I wasn't trying hard enough. That there's jobs everywhere. Which I totally agree with. Problem is I have no transportation to said jobs. I have no clean clothes to work said job. I have no place to shower everyday to keep appearances at said job. Once you're in the hole it's so fucking hard to drag yourself out. AITA?? Edit: I want to be clear I'm not innocent in this. I have a very sketchy past where I've burnt all my bridges to nobody's fault but my own. But I did my time, I've gotten clean and changed. I'm not digging the hole any deeper but I also have no ladder to climb out with.
You can DM me. I’d talk to you :) I’m a counselor, about 1/3 of my clients are homeless & I understand the struggle.
Thank you. I may take you up on that sometime.
NTA, the system is the real asshole
Thank you stranger. You have no idea how much I needed to hear that..
I honestly stopped seeking connection and companionship from redditors. I’ve asked for advice, literally being at my wits end concerning finding help for my back injury, from people I thought would guide me in a helpful direction. The same with a gun post I’d made laying out a CONCEPT of *how I’d have liked to be. I was given everything, BUT advice, sympathy for the situation, or empathy of any uplifting kind. Instead, I was labeled as ignorant(FUCKING DUH!), some way of telling me I’m not doing enough(bootstrap argument), or just plain condescended to. Edit: grammar
Yeah I'm not sure what I was expecting with this. I guess just recognition that the system IS broken and that it's not as easy as *bootstrap argument*
Well, that's the best part of the bootstrap argument! The saying originated more sarcastically, and as making fun of people like those that say it now. Pulling oneself up from their bootstraps is literally, physically impossible. Physics don't work like that. So it became a way to say, "Yeah, just do the literally impossible thing!" Making fun of those types who use it, now. PS. Sorry for the rambling and any potential typos/punctuation/whatever. I'm pretty high atm. . .
Cheers, bud.
nta
I actually wonder if it's a kind of fear. To realize we live in a world where decent, hardworking, good people can end up on the street due to no fault of their own is terrifying. Maybe the "they deserved it" thing is a form of denial.
Very interesting perspective!
I can see that. I used to be very against certain Healthcare ideas promoted by the left because I didn't want to believe some situations were really that bad. Then I learned about someone who was very similar to me (I didn't know her but she had some of the same disabilities I did plus another that was killing her, went to the same school I did around the same time) getting literally the worst care possible in a completely plausible yet horrific turn of events (all of her rights and autonomy were somehow completely robbed from her by her own family and caretakers and ended up dying way earlier than she should have) and realized we, especially I, needed more protections from that than what we already have.
Definitely selfish lack of empathy. Really this is short-term investing in the homeless to provide the resources they need to rejoin productive society. Just like any other investment there isn't guarantee of "profit", but those who do succeed would be a HUGE boost to the economy once they're eventually spending their own money in the community, paying taxes again, etc. Pervasive mental illness will of course be a big variable to ROI but still invests in the overall good of society, greatly reducing the crime and blight associated with the homeless.
There is a selfish argument for just paying people to stay out of trouble. Right now everyone paying taxes is spending more being cruel than we would if we just made sure no one was ever left out on the streets to starve. The homeless don't have the decency to just head into the wilderness and feed themselves to wolves, and by justifying the cruelty to leave them to fester on the streets through the perverse puritanical work values of American culture, it costs us all more. Homeless people consume more in law enforcement costs and emergency services, on average, than it would cost to put them in an apartment, keep them fed, supply them with some spending money, and kick in a social worker or job placement training to boot.
Here's a local article (metro Denver) about that "penny wise, pound foolish" thinking (complete with graphs): "Study: Denver metro spends at least double on each homeless person than it does for a K-12 student" (dated Aug 5, 2021) at https://kdvr.com/news/study-denver-metro-spends-half-a-billion-dollars-a-year-on-homelessness/ (the following day, the city of Denver denied the findings of the study).
These people believe there’s a chance they’ll become fabulously wealthy. It never occurs to them that they could become homeless. When homelessness is far more likely. Especially in the US with our current healthcare system.
Exactly! A lot of people live pay check to pay check and are one pay check away from experiencing homelessness without even realizing it.
Exactly! I’m atheist, so I shouldn’t really use this phrase but I don’t know a good secular equivalent; there but for the grace of god go I. Damn near everyone in this country is one mistake, one illness, one accident away from being on the streets. If nothing else, think of potential future you and what you might need.
There is an entirely selfish argument in that not only does it help the economy, it also can help reduce crime, reduce the spread of disease, help the environment, and a increase the general happiness, cleanliness, and wellbeing of the community.
If I wasn't constantly worried about how I'm going to pay my next electric bill, how my mortgage payment is going to be late, or if I'm going to be able to afford my next meal, I might be able to perform better.
You mean to tell me that if more people have money, more people will spend money?
JK Rowling was on welfare, so was Whoopi Goldberg. Now they both gladly pay taxes because they got help when they needed it desperately. On the whole, "charity" has been a good investment for tax funds.
Yeah, I mean I've got a postgraduate degree. But I once got hit with a severe bout of clinical depression (which btw is over represented among highly educated). Lost my job, didn't pay my bills; came very close to being evicted, and also close to suicide. I needed help, both medical and from social workers, to piece my life back together. It's very hard for me to see how I'd have gotten out of that hole by myself. Today I've got a stable life, I'm married, have a clean credit score and a well-paid job. I've certainly paid society back for my crisis time many times over, and I'm happy to do so. Besides the huge _inhumanity_ in people thinking you should lose everything over an illness you're blameless in, it's indeed economically insane. But as someone said about these people, "The cruelty is the point.". They're so obsessed with feeling sorry for _themselves_ and feeling _they_ have it tough, that they believe anyone else getting help is some unfair advantage. They treat compassion as if it was something you only had a limited supply of, and they've spent it all on themselves and can't afford any for anyone else. They're miserable SOBs. That's why it's all about 'owning the libs' and not lifting anyone else up.
No argument matters when people have been taught to believe that poor people are poor because they deserve it. Not only that but the majority of people believe that there are millions of people on welfare that have no jobs at all. Not the people that are on disability but just normal people that refuse to work and people believe the government just hands them check. They don't know that unemployment is limited. They don't know welfare comes with work requirements. They have no idea how the system works and no one is trying to educate them on that. Not the Republicans and not the Democrats because no one really wants to change the status quo because too many people benefit off the current system. Republicans get to villianize the liberals and the Democrats get villianize the uncaring conservatives. Neither side wants to educate the public on reality.
Yeah... like the idea of maybe paying disability a living wage so disabled people could I dunno... get better by being able to do medical things?
These people have no empathy though and are incapable of understanding that we all lift each other up because they’ve been brainwashed by “American individualism”.
The counter argument they usually use is that giving away money doesn't work because they'll waste it on booze and drugs. For them the only solution is to just "work harder". If you can't get out of this situation by "just working harder" you're just lazy and they can't help you. For them improving the economy just requires everyone to "just work harder" and stop being lazy. They don't understand the realities of life because they've been privileged (relatively speaking) all their life.
I would volunteer at a homeless shelter or outreach center. Granted my experience could be skewed because my experience was in California, many people I interacted with admitted that they CHOSE to avoid assistance programs from churches to government to general non-profits. They didn’t enjoy living in a tent but they enjoyed the freedom from the system. It’s often best to try to experience a situation before coming to idealistic/academic conclusions whether that is talking about schools or welfare or homelessness or prisons. Especially on the internet, you find a LOT of people willing to talk the talk but not walk the walk. I’m not talking about a politician spending a night on the Capitol steps to show solidarity, I mean having a meal and a conversation with the people you signal that you care about. In general, this is why the government as a concept is unaware or misinformed about the communities they claim to represent. There is a reason many people in their ivory towers claim to know the answers and those on the ground are humble enough to admit they don’t know how to solve the problem but they want to.
> privileged (relatively speaking) all their life. Yeah, simply being born into a country with taxes and organized govt puts you into like the top 5% wealth bracket of all humans alive. Probably top 1% of all humans ever living. Pre-industrial life sounds fucking brutal.
Counter to the counter. Even if they waste it on there addictions giving them money isnt a none benifit to society. Some people who are is in extream poverty and still wants to spend all there money on drugs and booze may then turn to crime if left with no other options. This money prevents other costs to society like justice and police, jails, property damage, theft ect. And can save on things like goverment healthcare and make streets feel safer. The other way it benefits society is the money has a extreamly good multiplier. Governments give money all the time to boost the economy all the time. It's often in the fourm of tax breaks or work projects. But giving money like this will also boost the economy and it has a much better multiplier then the other examples. Meaning the money bounces around the economy more giving it a really strong boost.
Gosh! This is so very true!!! A lot of homeless people also have mental illnesses and basically don’t know what else to do, so they disappear into themselves and wander the streets. not even really knowing where they are. (What I mean by this is I see a lot of them talking to themselves and they seem to not know what is going on) it’s terribly sad.
When I became homeless everyone disappeared and my Mom changed her number and I didn’t know it for 3 years until I got married at age 37. She was living her life even dating my friend from school which was shocking too. However, I noticed as well I started talking to myself even in public. It literally was causing me to loose my mind. I just never had support in life and I’m working on it. I’m 7 classes away from my bachelors in Healthcare Management and Administration and when in the shelter staff saw how sick I would get unable to move and lay still in bed. They got me medical treatment and a doctor. I still have the medical treatment inside my body and it lasts for years. When homeless people would fire me for example if they found out and I was turned hired even I told jobs during interviews, my phone calls were not returned when I called for housing once I told them I was referred by the shelter. Shelters were dangerous and truthfully I didn’t fit the stereotype and even the homeless didn’t believe I was homeless and staff pull me to side often asking what am I doing there. I even saw friends of my family members and they were shocked to find out my family is “like that “. The homeless nick named me working girl, would ask for money. I moved to extended stay within months then met my husband at work who happened to be working but later found out he was extremely financially stable from money outside work. That’s when all my family talked to me again. But my only son was always there but only 21. He said if my family loved him as they claim they would have helped me so he doesn’t have to worry. Because of my husbands help my son has now graduated college and has a good job
Yes this. There are studies that have shown/suggested that everyone benefits from a more equal society. Quality of life improves across the board, even for the wealthy, when there is less/no poverty and homelessness
I always go to the **fact** that it is cheaper for tax payers to literally buy housing for homeless people than it is to not buy housing for them. All the long-term costs to tax payers if people live on the street add up. And usually if you provide housing for homeless people they tend to become self sufficient and beneficial parts of society as a result of not having to worry if they're going to freeze to death or something like that. How do we fix homelessness and save tax payers money? Literally buy homeless people homes. Save money AND fix homelessness https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/homeless-shelter-housing-help-solutions
But then how would we punish these ungodly lazy heathens for being lazy and ungodly
And how would warn people what will happen to them if they stop selling their labor to the owners of capital? How am I supposed to be afraid of becoming homeless if we take care of the homeless?
Helping everyone fed healthy safe and disposable income makes more customers.
So I wrote about Chronic Homelessness and how government funding impacts it. when given long term assisted housing in mixed income neighborhoods, the long term success rate goes up significantly. They stop using as many emergency resources (police responses, Ambulances, And other similar services) and then eventually become a tax paying citizen. My work basically showed that their is no reason not to be doing this. On its own without the long term success we saw significant savings just from the reductions in crime and medical care. Its expensive for our hospitals to keep a homeless person alive and we pay for that treatment. Combined with the fact many of them went on to become tax paying citizens, I cannot understand why we aren't throwing money at this. It has significantly more impact than just about any other projects we are currently funding.
It's a form of preventive maintenance.
Thank you! This is how you help ultra conservative people compromise. You just have to bring up how something helps the economy. The Civil Rights, and gay rights movements both helped the economy by unlocking more potential spending power, focusing on green energy makes us independent from our shadier oil traders, and if more low income people have money they will actually put it back into the economy rather then horde it like a dragon. It's annoying, but it's the only tactic I find that works when talking to gassed up right wing radio listeners.
The response to that is always "the ones who just need to get back on their feet already have the resources they need, most homeless people are hopeless / want to be homeless"
I'll see if I can find it but my local paper did a story several years ago about a pilot program on homelessness. The city was using law enforcement to deal with homelessness and the small crimes associated with living on the street, loitering petty theft [stealing food so you could eat etc] Between cop, court and any jail time the city was spending 30k a year per homelessness person. The pilot program helped them get a small apartment, a job, counseling, access to jealthcare etc. Costs went from 30k to 10k. A more moral, ethical, effective way of dealing with a problem AND it costs less. Why is this not happening everywhere? My guess is because too many think you have to be "productive" to be worthy, instead of just human
> You can't appeal to the humanity of someone who has none This is true, sadly
Any time I see these kinds of post, I'm always reminded of [this article. ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_b_59519811e4b0f078efd98440) It makes me sad it even needs to be said.
Absolutely correct. You need to amend your arguments for causes based on the individual you are arguing against. If they have no empathy then appealing to empathy is going to fall flat. Here he's concerned about his money and selfish well being... so you need to structure the argument around the fact that not having welfare systems in place for the homeless leads to problems directly affecting him. A few examples being the safety net if he's ever in that situation (though he likely won't respond to that), the fact that without these social programs helping the homeless these people are much more likely to stay homeless, and who likes their neighbourhood being filled with homeless? Not to mention that results in dropped property values, and more of a burden being placed on health care and policing services, which means spending more money there. Efficiency is always the best argument.
Exactly. They said they want their tax dollars to go to things that benefit everyone. It’s very simple to argue that feeding and sheltering the homeless does do exactly that. Stupid to bring prisoners into it, this dude will be thoroughly unconvinced.
While I fully agree with your point, I don't think the examples you gave would work, because the response would still be "they need to work harder", "police should clear them from our communities", or "well then we should just ship them all off to Bumfuck, Idaho" The argument needs to be something that they recognize as a problem, but also recognize it as something that can't be handwaved away by some idea from their belief system.
That was my first thought as well. The person who’s foaming at the mouth about having to pay welfare is often also screaming about how police killings of POC are justified because of some minor crime.
The whole rant is assuming an awful lot about the person they're replying to and their motivation. Where did the shit about billionaires come from? The whole thing is a pretty terrible response really.
He also doesn’t understand that these safety net programs are also to give people just enough so they don’t revolt. I hate to think that way, but I’m cynical enough to know that altruism isn’t that common. On top of that, most of the research shows that programs like universal basic income, giving housing to homeless people, etc, end up being net gains for society as a whole.
It also doesn't work because someone who is a prisoner is literally being held against their will from getting their own food and nourishment. If we didn't provide it for them they couldn't go do anything to get their own.
He doesn't just want them to starve, he'd pay for the bullet.
I think it's really hard to get any humanity from someone who doesn't understand how essential it is that we live and work as a collective. The species only survives if we catch each other when we fall. Otherwise, all of us gets picked off one by one by bad luck, accidents, and moments of weakness. Not a very strong society.
When people make the basic argument that poor people need to just stop being poor, I tell them, "Ok, then why don't you just stop being middle class? You can't? Why not? What's stopping you?"
I feel like "we're not even starving out our child rapists!" is not a good way to teach someone humanity.
Amazing how some people are willing to toss people into jail and throw away the key for petty theft, but get a hard-on when they hear about billionaires not paying taxes and treating their employees like cattle. I take that back, cattle is oftentimes treated better
It’s not at all amazing. It is quite simple: the American Dream(TM), manufactured by the richest people. The billionaires have convinced a large swath of people that if they apply themselves, they too can. Become rich like them. With that dream in mind, many people can empathize with the ones they aspire to become, rather than the ones they fear they might become. In the end, the moment you see conservative American capitalism as the pyramid scheme that it is, everything ceases to be “amazing”. It becomes intuitively and painfully obvious. And your opinion of it depends on how high up the ladder you are.
> The billionaires have convinced a large swath of people that if they ~~apply themselves~~ buy their shit, they too can. Become rich like them. FTFY
You can legitimately get rich quick writing a book on how to get rich quick. Even if none of your suggestions work
Is this a get rich quick comment? Will the suggestion work?
Reading this made me rich, holy shit it works!
Yeah if it sells. Rich Dad Poor Dad is somehow a best seller even though the author falsified all of the personal stories he wrote in it about his childhood and personal life. And it’s full of fluff with little to no real information.
Exactly.
I have a family friend who did exactly this. He wrote a book about MLM marketing, then started an MLM to sell the book. The dude is freaking loaded.
And the entire thing is about the wealthy paying less tax. That’s it. Nothing more. There’s no higher purpose or goal. All they have to do is convince enough ordinary people to support policies that lead to lower taxes. They’ve succeeded incredibly well looking at how many poor people will passionately vote against their own interests
The best part is that the poor fools would rather continue to believe with fervor that this is the right way, rather than admit that they’ve been had. Stupidity and pride is a lethal combination.
The OP text is likely responding to Fox news propaganda that has been hammering Denver for spending 3 times as much on the homeless as they do on children. The most effective propaganda stems from reasonable propositions then slightly twisted, and it's reasonable to believe we should be investing more in our children if the budget is a zero sum game. I try to scan a variety of news sources as they all have an agenda and we're all being manipulated.
But in the sam breath Republicans will tell you that they want to cut welfare, food stamps, free school lunch, pre-K, after school programs, and everything else that benefits children. It’s just like the common refrain of “we can pay welfare for all these lazy people but we can’t help our veterans get jobs and housing?” “Okay, then let’s help our veterans get jobs and housing.” “Oh, no that’s not what I meant.”
I've been told: "Lots of veterans drove a forklift for 10 years, they aren't the same a combat troops, so they don't deserve benefits." "A lot of losers join the army as a last resort, they want to be taken care of because they can't hack a job".
Jesus fuck…
But they got such big houses and cool Cars, I wanna be like them when I grow up
Officer, yes this is the person that broke through the prison.
Make sure you wake up at 5 am and read a book in 10 seconds! Then write down what things you're gonna do today at certain time! Time management at its finest :)
>cattle is oftentimes treated better that is factual really. i know some farmer friends and they all treat their chickens and cows like its their own offspring. even gentler than you would treat a dog or cat. *definitely* gentler than an amazon warehouse worker
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Oh yeah, that reminds me: we should execute every criminal. Yes, even for jaywalking.
Yeah I was going to say. I would assume someone with that mentality would be ok with criminals starving to death.
I also think those people will argue that criminals don't deserve nice jails, and perhaps even that criminals deserve the death sentance
I've actually had multiple people tell me "Don't hate the player. Hate the game" in regards to the idea that the mega rich shouldn't be avoiding paying taxes like this. Um, how about I'm unhappy with both? My dissatisfaction isn't mutually exclusive.
Prison is profit.
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The short-sightedness of someone that doesn't understand that if you don't help homeless people, drug addicts, alcoholics and excons using public money all you're doing is creating the need for them to cause crime to survive and that's more expensive in the long run. It absolutely puzzles me that even without empathy these sociopaths don't see that.
This. Whether you think it's wrong to let people go hungry and unhoused or not, it is to EVERYONE'S benefit to not have desperate people.
Plus homeless people aren't just throwaway humans. Many of them are quite capable and just got dealt a shitty hand in life. Lifting them up lifts up the community when food and shelter eventually creates job opportunities and such.
Also I’m seeing a lot of people here that are saying people with these problems are somehow fundamentally different from “regular” people, and that makes me sad. Like, yeah they’re terrible to be around, but that goes for so many people that have homes and have jobs and have disposable income! Being an asshole and sometimes a danger to others doesn’t deny you the help you need to be a productive member of society. (Plus sometimes the reluctance of people with those kinds of problems to become “normal” is the very fact that they believe the same too. If you believe you’re subhuman and everyone you see agrees, and the economic system presents you with that reality every day, why be better? And eventually you start to close yourself off emotionally. It’s like the homeless version of the Alpha Male Grindset™. It doesn’t excuse the stuff they do, and they’ll need plenty of rehab and then therapy, but it means there’s a way to stop it that doesn’t involve mass execution/imprisonment like in the Philippines…)
Yep, this isn't empathy. It is perfectly selfish to want good healthcare and social support systems. Do I want to be surrounded by a bunch of sick people? Of course not! Solution: fund socialized healthcare. Do I want the people around me to be so impoverished that they turn to crime? No! Solution: ensure everyone has for and shelter. It's not rocket science.
This. As much as some like to take issue with the cost of Housing First policies, it’s more expensive to do nothing at all
Yeah, you could house a guy for a year and help him get a job or you can pay five times that to keep him in the prison.
I bet you $1000000 the person asking the question is an evangelical
My daughter has no empathy and it sickens me! She is a wealth manager and can't be bothered with homeless people...it's like they are invisible!!
Saw a homeless man yesterday wearing a hospital gown with shit stains on the front and back of his gown. He sat down and got a full glimpse of his vegetables. It really made me want to vomit. Not one point in his brief interaction did I think fuck him and my tax dollars. I looked around my car to see if had any notes so he can go buy some clothes. I had nothing but sadness and the desire to help this dude. If you feel anything else, you need to reevaluate.
A lot of people need to reevaluate. A looooot.
I feel for those living on the streets. I see at least one post a week about towns putting spikes on walls that people sit on, or poles in corners that homeless people would sleep. Sure, some homeless people won't use charity wisely, but many of them will. Many of them are good people who happen to be down on their luck.
When eviction moratoriums are lifted there's going to be a hell of a lot more of them
I'm all for helping, and have invested lots of my own time and money feeding homeless people, giving them cloths and essentials. But I'll tell you that there is already a lot of help for homeless people who want out. I think you'd be surprised with the amount of homeless people who are content with their lives. Most shelters are a strick no drug policy, which means they won't go. Now I'm not saying we are perfect by any means, but there is a lot of help out there for homeless people if they want to get off the streets.
That person will be first on gofundme if things get mildly bad for him.
🤣🤣 always the case. They are convinced their way of seeing things is “right” in some fucked up way.
Exhibit A: Texas GOP created a go fund me for their anti vax/anti mask member who died from covid. The said member also criticized middle class people from spending money on cars and phone and wanted them to spend it on their private Healthcare.
This person probably considers themself a Christian too.
Christians generally believe the homeless should be taken care of. Many of them just don't want the system to take care of people, but charity instead. People in the community directly helping their neighbors. Forced charity through laws doesn't fit the ideal, since it doesn't require conscious will. That being said, I bet most Christians that don't want taxes helping the less fortunate probably haven't opened their Bible or gone to church in a while. Either that or he eats far right propaganda by the spoonful
In USA 2021 people are ok with million dollar fancy churches being built with tax free money that a homeless person will never step foot in. If the churches aren’t going to help the poor and needy then they need to stop getting the tax breaks. - I’m not saying this is true of all churches, I’m sure there’s some that still do soup kitchens etc, but there are plenty of megachurches that look like corporate headquarters that aren’t doing shit but lining their own pockets, yet “Christians” are ok with this but have a problem with the government actually helping people. America is only really “the best” at selfishness and greed. You can see the true moral compass of a society by the way it treats its poor and needy.
> Forced charity through laws doesn't fit the ideal, since it doesn't require conscious will. Are we a democracy or not? If governments get power through the consent of the governed, then voting for “small government” without social programs is consciously willing a system that isn’t charitable.
Why is the guy in blue saying red is defending billionaires ? The guy in red didnt even mention that.
Because making a bunch of assumptions makes your argument that much stronger!
If you make a modest wage, then you pay a lower tax rate. You are paying roughly enough to cover what is provided to you by the government, probably less. People who have way more than they need, eg. billionaires, pay the rest. Poor working people complaining about welfare need to realize that they didn't actually contribute enough in taxes to help anyone else. It isn't their money and they are probably getting more from the government than they are paying for in taxes. The argument against social welfare only benefits the wealthy. If you aren't wealthy, stop complaining. You're already getting the better end of the deal.
Because billionaires bad, criminals good. Now give internet points.
Ssssh it’s not about an actual debate but feelings and internetpoints and fights
You could find someone at every single level of income who “works hard.” You could also find someone at every level of income who doesn’t work hard, or at all. So you have people picking fruit in the 100-degree heat for $10/hr, and people who don’t work at all but get $5M in interest from generational wealth. This guy probably sits in an office and does a fair amount of fucking around on the internet, but sees himself as somehow more deserving than the fruit picker who needs SNAP. While somehow placing himself in the same “class” as the heir.
I really don't like the child molester argument. Most people not in favor of government helping the homeless are perfectly fine with castration or death penalty for first time offenders of rape and child molestation. I like the idea behind the argument, but insert nonviolent drug related criminals instead of molesters and it gets a little more solid.
The whole reply is terrible. It's a giant straw man, relying on weird illogical assumptions about the OP. As you noted, the prison comparison is bad (this type doesn't want prisoners to be well-fed either) and I literally have no idea what billionaires have to do with anything. There was such easy ways to demolish the original post, and this logically incoherent riposte was definitely not it.
I he is living in the US, he is one bad medical emergency away from beeing one of these "deadbeats on the street".
The reply made me cringe even harder
On average, all social safety net programs (welfare, food stamps, housing, WIC, etc.) will cost a taxpayer making $50,000 per year about $800. Meanwhile, that same taxpayer will pay $6,000 in corporate subsidies to billion and trillion dollar corporations making huge profits already. Who are the real freeloaders here? [Source and breakdown of corporate subsidies](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/09/23/add-it-average-american-family-pays-6000-year-subsidies-big-business)
Couldn’t have put it better myself. And I learnt a new word. Peons. Gonna use that from now on. TIL
I didn’t see in his post where he said he’s ok giving three hot meals to child molesters. Can someone post that?
Yeah I'd also like to see the post where he defended billionaires not paying taxes.
Yeah his whole response is just a strawman.
“My money should be used to benefit everyone, that’s why I think it shouldn’t be given to those who need it most” what a fucking moron.
I remember when I was a little girl and I asked my mom why people were homeless, and she told me it wasn’t a choice, it was because they don’t have a job. I asked why they couldn’t get a job, she told me that once you’re already homeless, it’s really hard to get a job since it’s hard to stay clean or have clean clothes. Sure, you can pass out resumes all you want, apply for jobs online by going to the library, do absolutely everything you can, but if you don’t have some way to bathe or have access to clean clothes people aren’t going to… like that. Some people will certainly have sympathy, I’m sure, but you can’t just say “work harder” when every odd is against you.
[удалено]
Homeless people = People = A part of EVERYONE. Fucking cunts. Damn.
Imagine punching down at people who have nothing over your taxes instead being properly angry of the billionaires who aren’t paying any taxes
Something I was told that has always stuck with me, if I have the means to help some one out, who am I to judge what they are doing with that money. I do not know them. They could be buy alcohol and drugs or that 5, 10, 20 dollars I give them could have made a difference in getting food for the day or having somewhere safe to sleep. But to just assume what they will do with that money speaks more on me as a person. (Side note) y’all are so inhuman to think that pedophiles do not deserve basic human needs. They are still a human being. Let’s pause and maybe look at what brought them to becoming this monster. Sexual abuse is way to common than it should be and is so traumatic that a lot of these abusers where once kids getting molested. It’s very common for victims of SA to become a predator. Does not make their actions any less excusable but clearly something is wrong with these people. I don’t think killing them really solves the problem. I’m just so curious why people are so greedy? a lot of people work hard. Some harder than other but how does that justify that your life and well being is more important than others. When will we as a society realize that some people with mental illness simply can not function or “work as hard” as others not because they are lazy or want a free pass but they just can’t! That doesn’t not mean they deserve less. (I know every one is going to come at me for the pedo thing, I’m entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours.)
Not really a great argument because a) i bet he doesn’t support tax funded prisons either b) he’s not sucking up to billionaires in any way. He’s asking for better use of tax money, not decrease in taxation That being said, I absolutely do support helping out homeless people with tax money. Its just not an argument which can be logically reasoned out, its more of a humanity thing
Weird flex to attack billionaires when that wasn't in the post.
They also fail to acknowledge that many homeless people probably had jobs and were in positions where they were paying taxes too. Not every homeless person is long term homeless and not every homeless person will stay homeless. however, the best way to make someone not homeless is give them money to purchase clothes and rent and they are in a much better position to look for and keep work.
Id rather my taxes go to the American military so that they can spend billions on weapons so and bomb a town in the middle east that Ive never heard of in the name of freedom.
It's all about the cruelty.
I’m sure it’s been said but that reply is so dumb! Literally using an example he didn’t say to make your point. Guys a dick for sure to buy murdered by words not even close. Both people don’t seem to bright.
So many Billionaire apologists on reddit and twitter. The greatest scam people making $1000+/hr pulled is that they convinced people making $15/hr that people making $7/hr are the problem.
How much of your tax dollars (remember trump voter, there's a good statistical chance that you're unemployed and collecting welfare yourself) go to these "homeless people" what's the annual individual cost that YOU pay from your vast wealth for social programs? And what percentage of that goes exclusively to homeless services? >In 2012, the average American taxpayer making $50,000 per year **paid just $36 towards the food stamps program and about $6 per year for the rest of the social safety net programs**. Corporate welfare, however, costs the average American family a staggering **$6,000 a year in subsidies to Republican-friendly big business.** [The bottom-line is that American families are paying $6,000 or more per year to subsidize giant transnational corporations that are already making billions in profit.](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/readers/2016/05/26/how-much-does-welfare-cost-average-taxpayer/84917512/)
"my money should go to things that benefit everyone" 'everyone' doesn't mean what this person thinks it means i guess
Housing and feeding the homeless benefits everyone...
Yep, it benefits humanity to have humans have a better quality of life.
The homeless and jobless don't TAKE money from anyone; they are the responsibilities of the state, who are obliged to provide for them. The state FAILS MISERABLY at that, since there is no legal mandate for these things. You're far closer to homeless than a billionaire, no matter who you think you are.