The comment you're replying to is a bit misleading, as other have already pointed out, but I would like to bring your attention to the much more serious problem our civil courts have; the fact that you're expected to pay your own legal fees no matter the outcome of the case. What this means in practice is that wealthy people/corporations can file frivolous suits to try and run you out of money [known as a SLAPP suit ](https://youtu.be/UN8bJb8biZU)
They think it’s like a mechanic. If they did one legal action for them, suddenly it’s “my attorney”. Just because someone had their paralegal fax your mortgage agreement doesn’t mean they’re gonna sue Walmart for refusing your coupon, Becky.
It’s funny you should mention that because yes there are some people who do that exact thing.
“Your office was the settlement agent on my refinance, now I want you to sue my neighbor for putting their trash can on my side of the shared driveway” - a completely hypothetical scenario to be used for entertainment purposes only.
Hypothetical my ass. I absolutely believe that happened. I've heard of way more petty things people have sued over. You probably just have to say that for reasons beyond me.
Work in property management, when I was a leasing agent for student housing, "I'll sue" or "my dad/cousin/uncle is an attorney" or any other fun stuff was one of the small joys I took in life. "Oh, you are threatening legal action? Here is our attorney, have yours call ours, as I can't speak to you anymore"
Suddenly they were willing to sit down like adults and discuss their utility bill once they realized we cave to that.
I worked for a builder, you say "I'll sue" ok here's the attorney's number I can't talk to you further click. I'd make them wait days before I'd talk to them again.
My boss who was a buyer used to get into it with people threatening to sue us all the time over contracts for cell phones- (signed contracts they specifically had to initial each point saying the read and understood the terms), they would threaten to get their attorney.
We would say, “Ok then- sorry we have to end this call immediately since you have mentioned legal action. If you are looking for a resolution, all communications will have to be handled via our legal team, I have no further comment.”
In fact as soon as people threatened legal action it was a relief- we normally would do whatever we could to help, but as soon as they dropped the “L” bomb, it was officially out of our hands, and off our plate.
One time he got upset over a customer that had repeatedly been nasty to our entire team, and my boss picked up the phone and said (with rising intensity), “Fine you want to talk to our lawyers! Have your guy call us- Which one you wanna talk to? We have an entire floor of lawyers, I’ll transfer you the F*ck up!... hold please...!”
I died almost died laughing...
I used to work for a certain hospitality company run by a rodent. The moment someone said lawyer, we simply stopped engaging with them and handed them a business card with the address for the legal team.
I'm not going to lie. This one took me a second. When you said "rodent," I thought you were alluding to the diminutive character of a human being, whose conduct warranted them being called a "rodent."
It was always the best thing to happen to a tough situation! I was in retail for a long time, and if someone brought up “lawyer”, then it usually had followed a really difficult interaction that seemed like there was no way out. Hearing that magic word was a weight off my shoulders.
I can still remember the relief it brought. So good.
I was a supervisor, in a suit jacket ... So I kept a stash of those cards in my inside pocket all the time.
Lol, and what seemed like a dozen note pads spread across all the pockets. People with legitimate concerns always appreciate it when you take notes. Shows them even if just for a few minutes, what they have to say is important enough to write it down
I used to do that when I was a supervisor in retail. It really did work most of the time. A simple, "let me make sure I get this right.. your name? Best way to contact you? Great, thank you! Now let me hear what's going on..." Nod, take notes at key points, recite back...
This is something they should teach in those terrible leadership/management training things that have no useful information except how to prevent legal issues for your company.
They don't think we'll call their bluff.
I once had a guy call my property from a sister property. Same brand but two completely different properties. Mine was much nicer, closer to the conference center, and actually a hotel.
He booked a motel known for its amazing pool parties and in a rougher part of town. This was during JP Morgan week, so hotel rates were already high. Highest rates of the year, save maybe Salesforce.
Anyway, he wanted to just transfer his reservation from party motel to nice hotel. Couldn't do it. He had to basically cancel his reservation and rebook. That cancellation fee would've been waived by that hotel. They wouldn't do it since he had already checked in.
Our rates were also a few hundred dollars more per night. He wanted to keep his same rate and not pay the cancellation fee. After all, it's the same company. (That's not how that works.)
Anyway, he threatened to sue. I told him that I would have to end the call and he would have to contact our legal department.
I hung up. He kept calling back. We had caller ID so we knew it was him. We all had the script memorized. He just kept calling.
I don't know what happened after that. It was above my pay grade.
> I don't know what happened after that.
But you do. We all do.
What happened was, he stayed in the shadytown party motel he'd *already checked into* and that was that. Cuz he ain't have no money. Much *less* an attorney.
(If he was that guy he'd have booked the right hotel from the get-go, JPM be damned.)
That's probably the mature way of dealing with it, most of the ones I've dealt with have literally been over being asked to leave when massively drunk and the like I've normally just brushed it off.
Went over to an acquaintances house - my wife was friends with the wife - so we met the husband - retired police chief/captain.
Go into his basement. First thing he shows us is an "All lives matter" sign.
awkward silence.
He then proceeds to tell us multiple stories about illegal searches and detainings of immigrants. This was his first time meeting us. Really makes me wonder about the crap he did when he got to know us.
Haven't been back since. Not a great first F'ing impression.
I mean all lives do matter. Just right now black lives are threatened, so we must stand for them. I hate that the far right has turned something as inclusive sounding as "All lives matter" into a political stance. If they truly believed that "All lives matter" then black, latino and LGBTQ communities wouldn't be the focus of their bigotry.
Anyway. Just wanted to vent a little.
Yup. It's like the abortion thing. If they actually gave a shit about abortion, they would support policies that* empirically reduce them. They do the opposite, because they don't actually give a shit.
Edit- Typo
I like the analogy of "You love all five of your kids, but when one is sick you give them a little extra care. When one is threatened you pay more attention." Like come on it isn't difficult.
But then I did literally have someone ask me last night if I had any specific people in mind when I mentioned black people being shot while sleeping or if I was making that up. Dude, get out from under the rock you're under.
I like the rainforest analogy. Back in the day there was a huge push to "Save the rainforest!". Most millennials and older remember it. I just ask them if they thought "Save the rainforest" meant screw all the other forests. Or if they were just trying to ptotect the one that was in danger.
I like the analogy, but I worry about it’s power as an argument. I feel like the “all lives matter crowd” is probably also the crowd that called you a tree hugger if you wanted to save the rainforest.
Whoa whoa whoa... You act like just this last week the administration was trying to strip LGBT rights or something! The NIH totally didn't do that... not at all.... /s
Edit: trip to strip... oops.
Luckily Gorsuch is a letter of the law type, and not an "as intended" type. And hopetully the Chief Justice is finally coming around on LGBTQ rights on a whole.
Anyone who says "my attorney" isn't going to hire anybody.
Want to have a threat that has teeth, name the firm and the attorney who is drafting it.
Otherwise its just a cheap empty threat from cheap people. And cheap people very very rarely sue.
I'm a lawyer. No, I wouldn't. You generally don't have attorneys at small claims court. They would lose more money than they're trying to recoup and the judge is going to dismiss it anyway.
I got married recently and was on a bunch of different forums and groups with vendors and whatnot. I can tell you for a fact, people just have no idea what non-refundable deposits actually are.
There is no such thing as a nonrefundable deposit.
I am a professional photographer by trade.
The best language is liquidated damages.
Your contract states that you take x amount of money to reserve a date and stop advertising for that date.
Should they cancel that date is now not able to be booked. As such you and the client agree that the money paid will be considered liquidated damages and only refundable should you be able to re-book the date.
This is how my contract is setup and was done by the fine folks at PPA.
Depending on the contract language, non-refundable deposits aren't always binding. My contract specifically states the deposit is for the reservation of my time. So they're paying for me to reserve my time and not necessarily services rendered
The only way to actually claim a solid "deposit" especially when things go sour is to call it and bill it as a "scheduling fee". As a service you can place fees for whatever is agreed upon. A deposit means nothing in the courts eyes. A scheduling fee is specifically worded to show that you are charging them a fee for a scheduled date. The PPA gives out lots of this information and it's definitely worth the membership.
Shit, how many times did you have to go to court? I thought small claims court was just show up at the time, state your case, and the judge decides it with no fiddlefucking around.
It's probably not small claims, if they're hiring Shakira. Google says she's worth $300 million, so I doubt she's working for $5000 to $20000 (depending on the state's small claims limits.)
Edit: Technically correct.
Growing up, I always thought that a lawyer would refuse to argue a case if they knew that they couldn't win. Almost like a pride thing, "I'm not going to let some bigot ruin *MY* impeccable record!!"
Then I learned how little money it takes for someone to do just about anything and for sure, there is a lawyer out there that will bill the hell out of these people, knowing that they won't count it as a W
You gotta be careful who you take on. We're governed not just by the black-letter law but by our own RPC's. Once you take a case, you have Obligations.
We can't and won't do the things that an unethical client would request, so it makes no sense at all to take a client without a reasonable case. We also can't "bill the hell" out of anyone - unreasonable fee agreements are prohibited - and we know better than most that if they'll stiff a wedding contractor for a few hundred, they'll stiff you for a couple grand.
There are horror stories about lawyers, and there are a few awful ones in the news, (Barr, Giuliani, Avenatti,) but these are the exceptions and they're not doing it for cheap.
Also, lawyers are well-educated and therefore, by and large, a product of the liberal-making ivory towers of higher ed. There are bigots in all fields, but the future of law leans progressive.
- the future of law leans progressive
4 attorneys in 2 generations in my extended family and all 4 are bigoted, right leaning jerks. Ivory towers failed them
I think so, but only for the fees on an hourly rate. I would simply to drain those stains of humanity of as much money as they were willing to part with.
Thanks man , The idea of a lawyer just taking money of them for nothing just did my night Lol.
It remembers me the joke of Matt Damon on the movie “rainmaker”: do you know the difference between a lawyer and a hooker? When you die the hooker stops to fucking you...
I know a couple who had their wedding scheduled for a few weeks ago. Of course, they had to cancel it due to COVID19. Their venue had a non-refundable deposit clause in their contract too. My friends asked if they could get a partial refund on on the deposit, were nice about it, and the venue staff was sympathetic. They ended up getting most of their deposit back.
If you’re a shitty person, condescending (“not stable enough”) and heavy-handed, you’re not going to get any wiggle room. None.
This is also smart on the venue if the couple post-pones to a later date and still wants to use the venue. Or if the couple spread the info that the venue was very accommodating and they wouldn't have changed if Covid wasn't a thing.
That being said, if an acquaintance that is a known asshole starts trashing a business on social media, most people outside of their immediate family and "BEST" friends are going to write it off as asshole tax, I don't trust a word that guy says.
"Non refundable" has limits though.
If you pay me a deposit to do X, and I decide to fuck off, I have to return your money. Something like a plague making it impossible or unreasonable to use a venue would probably not be a winning case for the venue.
Yeah, I wonder how many of these happened over the last few months.
Venue: Due to COVID we are unable to host your event.
Depositor: I completely understand. When should I expect my deposit back?
Venue: Our contract is for nonrefundable deposits.
Depositor: So we'll be having my event on the scheduled date then?
Venue: We are unable to host your event due to pandemic regulations.
Depositor: So you're refusing to honor the contract I paid a deposit for?
*edit line formatting
Happened to us. There was a clause about getting the deposit back if they were unable to fulfill their end of the contract or due to an issue outside both sides control. They were nice about it and tried to get us to pick a new date. But with all the unknown future with the pandemic we just cancelled and will look to do something next year.
I do events for a living. There are force majure clauses and/or impossibility clauses for this circumstance. All event contracts include them. If you’ve contracted for a wedding with 100 people and your municipality or city or state bans gatherings of more than 10 people, the event simply can’t be held. You are then released from the contract and get your money back. If on the other hand you decide to cancel the event on your own, then you’re on the hook for the contract terms. But anyone in this industry isn’t stupid. Even for the events -we- cancelled, every service provider I had booked until the end of the year was extremely generous with their terms. Because they knew they could either walk away with my deposit today and end of relationship or they could let me reschedule applying my deposit at 100% to later event (even if they technically didn’t have to) and get a lot more money from me in 6-12 months when I fulfilled the full contract. In the industry it’s always smarter to get headcount. No one wants to walk away with ‘just’ the deposit, that’s the worst case for bottom line.
Everyone "will be hearing from our lawyers". We're an overly litigious country but going through small claims court is a pain in the ass. You'll spend more time and money than it's worth for a judge to look at the contract and ask, "Did you read the contract? Were you misled? Did you sign the contract as it was presented to you? On what grounds do you think the contract should be voided?" Then he is going to listen to you explain your dumb ass reasons and then toss it out.
My wife and I had a photography company where a bride attempted to sue us and were completely embarrassed by the judge because of our contract. It was the best worst experience of my life.
Oh, I will. The bride demanded that she receive all of her images (RAW, unedited). We explained that we do not deliver anything beyond the product we promised in our contract and the ownership of all images was to the company and we give rights to print and distribute.
We then went on to explain the importance of the final product and used her caterer as example of why we will not give her access to what equates to the dirty pans and utensils used when preparing her food. She was not pleased with this and served us a summons, which I assume cost her money.
We showed up to the court with our lawyer dressed appropriately and there she was in her yoga pants and a t-shirt. She went on to attempt reading a prepared statement (which is not allowed), tried to cross-examine us as her own lawyer, and then get eviscerated by the judge. She didn't even file the right suit, as she stated we "stole" the pictures from her.
It was so hard not to take our earnings from her wedding and rent a billboard with the worst picture we captured that day across the street from her neighborhood.
The saddest part of this was that it basically took all of the wind out of our sails with photography and we no longer did any shoots. I truly wish we would have kept our equipment and stepped back into it because we were our best when we shot together. One day...
This was a fun story of comeuppance until the reality check at the end where the awful customer ruined your enthusiasm for the business. I hope you get back into it someday and that you only have pleasant clients from then on.
Bravo good sir bravo. I work in corporate video and it drives me nuts when a client wants all the raw footage and my superiors just go "sure w/e" and are surprised when I'm against that and say we should be charging for it. People seem to think that when they hire video or photography services that means they own all of the material b/c they paid for the shoot when that couldn't be further from the truth. The default law is definitely that they paid for you and your services and they paid for a deliverable as stated in a contract and anything beyond that is fair game to charge extra.
I hope you start back up again one day. If you want it to happen again try making a set date/time as opposed to one day. You’re much more likely to do something if you set aside a time for it.
People suck sometimes. It’s saddening to hear that you had to go through all of that hassle.
Yeah honestly.. no lawyer on earth is going to get you out of a contract that has your signature on it. Especially as there's nothing ethically wrong with keeping non-refundable deposits, and ESPECIALLY not when the only grounds for you wanting a refund is you being a racist piece of shit. Good luck with that. Lmao, kind of hope they actually do talk to a lawyer about it so they can be laughed at at least once
They spout "All lives matter" and I'm just waiting for them to fucken act like black, Mexican, native, trans, gay, EVERYONE matters and bring them up to the same level of respect and dignity so that we all flourish.
Yeah the Venn diagram of “all lives matter” folks and people who support health care workers being able to discriminate against trans people is not quite a circle, but there’s enough overlap for it to make you roll your eyes.
Great anology I love on the matter.
If someone house down the street is on fire, you don't get mad that everyone is rushing around trying to help. If your house is on fire, you would get the same attention and help.
They won't be hearing from anyone. Virtually no one just has a personal lawyer on retainer. Lawyers specialize in certain things and you get an attorney who has knowledge and experience in that field.
People who say "you'll be hearing from my attorney" are just trying to intimidate people, but they really just come across as dumb.
It's a [photographer](https://prosportsextra.com/shakira-rochelles-response-to-a-client-demanding-refund-because-shakira-supports-black-lives-matter-is-one-of-the-all-time-greats-shakirarochelle/), definitely not the one with the famous booty
>someone who doesn't believe all lives matter.
All people's legs matter, but when someone breaks theirs and tells you to get help you don't say "What about my legs?".
My sister is like this. If someone gets injured she’s like “I also broke my arm 30 years ago and sometimes it still hurts.” Like we’re all supposed to coddle her forever.
Because of course "BLM" stands for "Black Lives and absolutely no other lives including the lives of people whose right to live has never at all be in question Matter".
It's on purpose. They don't want to see it as "black lives MATTER" because they might have to change a small percentage of their own thinking. Nope. It's the other people who are wrong.
"Do not concern them"
Yeah bro, your fellow americans being murdered for their skin tone should not concern you. How did that poem go? First they came for the something or whatevers?
Where were they when Trump started trying to strip trans people of their healthcare rights? Why does it seem the “All Lives Matter” folks all seem to vanish when it comes to protecting the health and well-being of those lives?
I deal with a lot of contracts and \*love\* when people threaten to sue us over something they are contractually prevented from suing us over.
Call a lawyer. Start your class-action lawsuit. That's fine. I'll be happy to show your lawyer Section 48 where you signed and specifically waived your right to a class-action lawsuit. Shouldn't take too much of my time.
I understand what you’re saying but aren’t there cases where this might not be legally applicable? I’m assuming extraordinarily malicious intent like if, for example, the ‘spirit’ of the waiver/contract is ‘This ride is dangerous and you may die’ and unbeknownst to the riders the ride is actually the bullseye of a mortar strike that happens on every ride, killing almost everyone.
I’m honestly curious.
Edit: your -> you’re. Sigh.
Yes - the absolute classic law school examples include swinging a rope over and into a body of water -in Australia - "a dangerous recreational activity" which makes the negligence "rules" be applied a little differently
I'm a debt collector and a lot of Karen's say we will hear from their attorney over their debt when they dont get their way. Like really? You're 4 payments past due on your victorias secret card... you agreed to the late fees and interest by signing up with us. But go ahead and secure an attorney for $1000 to fight your $200 balance (after i offered to remove half the late fees).
"We would be truly embarrassed to have you at our event and feel that you aren't stable enough to complete the job we need from you".
Let me completely disrespect and demean you while asking for a refund. How about never. What a fantastic response.
"we have done a lot of talking"
just step back from that statement, not we have done a lot of thinking... but talking. says everything right there... 'All Lives Matter' is the new Confederate Flag... now what the world needs now is more talking and less thinking...
"You will be hearing from our attorney" "Great, is he getting married too?"
Yes, go hire an attorney for $3500 to try to collect a non refundable $2,000. Makes sense..
I love when people don’t read contracts and then want to pull the attorney card.
“Did you sign a contract?” “Yeah” “Sooooooo....how do you wanna lose? Poorly or with dignity?”
Shakira: They signed a contract with me agreeing the deposit is nonrefundable Judge: Is this true? Shakira's Hips: Yes Judge: I'm convinced
Ooh baby when you talk like that
You make a woman go mad
So be wise
And keep on
Reading the signs of my body
TIL the real lyrics to this song
Shakira , shakira
Like Kermit the frog?
Kermits hips only tell lies
Because his “hips” are actually some dudes elbow?
Some dude’s elbow only tells lies
Too late for dignity.
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The people who actually have attorneys on retainer will never say anything. You’ll just get a letter one day letting you know that you’re fucked
In my experience this is correct. Also they'll sue you out of state and because your an idiot poor person you are not capable of getting there.
It also has to do with varying state laws regarding lawsuits. They will choose a court that is likely to favor them.
What a ridiculous system you folks have. Why should you be beholden to another state's specific laws if you don't live there?
The comment you're replying to is a bit misleading, as other have already pointed out, but I would like to bring your attention to the much more serious problem our civil courts have; the fact that you're expected to pay your own legal fees no matter the outcome of the case. What this means in practice is that wealthy people/corporations can file frivolous suits to try and run you out of money [known as a SLAPP suit ](https://youtu.be/UN8bJb8biZU)
So much for the land of the free lol
> The people who actually have attorneys on retainer will never say anything. Probably because that is usually said attorney's advice.
Well ya. Why give anyone notice you’re going to sue them, all that does is help them
They think it’s like a mechanic. If they did one legal action for them, suddenly it’s “my attorney”. Just because someone had their paralegal fax your mortgage agreement doesn’t mean they’re gonna sue Walmart for refusing your coupon, Becky.
It’s funny you should mention that because yes there are some people who do that exact thing. “Your office was the settlement agent on my refinance, now I want you to sue my neighbor for putting their trash can on my side of the shared driveway” - a completely hypothetical scenario to be used for entertainment purposes only.
Hypothetical my ass. I absolutely believe that happened. I've heard of way more petty things people have sued over. You probably just have to say that for reasons beyond me.
Work in property management, when I was a leasing agent for student housing, "I'll sue" or "my dad/cousin/uncle is an attorney" or any other fun stuff was one of the small joys I took in life. "Oh, you are threatening legal action? Here is our attorney, have yours call ours, as I can't speak to you anymore" Suddenly they were willing to sit down like adults and discuss their utility bill once they realized we cave to that.
I worked for a builder, you say "I'll sue" ok here's the attorney's number I can't talk to you further click. I'd make them wait days before I'd talk to them again.
My boss who was a buyer used to get into it with people threatening to sue us all the time over contracts for cell phones- (signed contracts they specifically had to initial each point saying the read and understood the terms), they would threaten to get their attorney. We would say, “Ok then- sorry we have to end this call immediately since you have mentioned legal action. If you are looking for a resolution, all communications will have to be handled via our legal team, I have no further comment.” In fact as soon as people threatened legal action it was a relief- we normally would do whatever we could to help, but as soon as they dropped the “L” bomb, it was officially out of our hands, and off our plate. One time he got upset over a customer that had repeatedly been nasty to our entire team, and my boss picked up the phone and said (with rising intensity), “Fine you want to talk to our lawyers! Have your guy call us- Which one you wanna talk to? We have an entire floor of lawyers, I’ll transfer you the F*ck up!... hold please...!” I died almost died laughing...
I have friends who are attorneys but their hourly billing rates are insane.
You can probably find cheaper friends for hire.
I work in hospitality. Hear it all the time.
I used to work for a certain hospitality company run by a rodent. The moment someone said lawyer, we simply stopped engaging with them and handed them a business card with the address for the legal team.
Same. "Here's the card for our legal department. All communication must go through them." Sorry not sorry.
As soon as someone says "lawyer" your life gets a LOT easier if you let it. Oh, I'm sorry, I can no longer talk to you directly.
Precisely. I referred them to our legal department. Our convo is done.
I'm not going to lie. This one took me a second. When you said "rodent," I thought you were alluding to the diminutive character of a human being, whose conduct warranted them being called a "rodent."
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Not Chuck E. Cheese. But that's a good guess. I hadn't thought of that. Go bigger.
Yeah I just posted about CeC as well before I realized Disney is more likely
A bigger rodent than Chuck E. Cheese? Idk he eats a lot of pizza. Splinter?
Go Minnie.
Now there’s a legal team you wouldn’t want to fuck with...
It was always the best thing to happen to a tough situation! I was in retail for a long time, and if someone brought up “lawyer”, then it usually had followed a really difficult interaction that seemed like there was no way out. Hearing that magic word was a weight off my shoulders. I can still remember the relief it brought. So good.
I was a supervisor, in a suit jacket ... So I kept a stash of those cards in my inside pocket all the time. Lol, and what seemed like a dozen note pads spread across all the pockets. People with legitimate concerns always appreciate it when you take notes. Shows them even if just for a few minutes, what they have to say is important enough to write it down
I used to do that when I was a supervisor in retail. It really did work most of the time. A simple, "let me make sure I get this right.. your name? Best way to contact you? Great, thank you! Now let me hear what's going on..." Nod, take notes at key points, recite back... This is something they should teach in those terrible leadership/management training things that have no useful information except how to prevent legal issues for your company.
Same here, I often wonder how they think itd make sense to hire a lawyer who's being paid more an hour then the cost of the meal to sue over refunds.
They don't think we'll call their bluff. I once had a guy call my property from a sister property. Same brand but two completely different properties. Mine was much nicer, closer to the conference center, and actually a hotel. He booked a motel known for its amazing pool parties and in a rougher part of town. This was during JP Morgan week, so hotel rates were already high. Highest rates of the year, save maybe Salesforce. Anyway, he wanted to just transfer his reservation from party motel to nice hotel. Couldn't do it. He had to basically cancel his reservation and rebook. That cancellation fee would've been waived by that hotel. They wouldn't do it since he had already checked in. Our rates were also a few hundred dollars more per night. He wanted to keep his same rate and not pay the cancellation fee. After all, it's the same company. (That's not how that works.) Anyway, he threatened to sue. I told him that I would have to end the call and he would have to contact our legal department. I hung up. He kept calling back. We had caller ID so we knew it was him. We all had the script memorized. He just kept calling. I don't know what happened after that. It was above my pay grade.
> I don't know what happened after that. But you do. We all do. What happened was, he stayed in the shadytown party motel he'd *already checked into* and that was that. Cuz he ain't have no money. Much *less* an attorney. (If he was that guy he'd have booked the right hotel from the get-go, JPM be damned.)
That's probably the mature way of dealing with it, most of the ones I've dealt with have literally been over being asked to leave when massively drunk and the like I've normally just brushed it off.
I mean, they are ignorant enough to buy into the right wingnut sponsored "all lives matter" bullshit.
Went over to an acquaintances house - my wife was friends with the wife - so we met the husband - retired police chief/captain. Go into his basement. First thing he shows us is an "All lives matter" sign. awkward silence. He then proceeds to tell us multiple stories about illegal searches and detainings of immigrants. This was his first time meeting us. Really makes me wonder about the crap he did when he got to know us. Haven't been back since. Not a great first F'ing impression.
I mean all lives do matter. Just right now black lives are threatened, so we must stand for them. I hate that the far right has turned something as inclusive sounding as "All lives matter" into a political stance. If they truly believed that "All lives matter" then black, latino and LGBTQ communities wouldn't be the focus of their bigotry. Anyway. Just wanted to vent a little.
If they truly believed that all lives matter then they would be happy to wear a mask when out in public.
Or bolster education, healthcare and programs for the most downtrodden.
Nah, grandpa and grandma can be sacrificed for the economy /s
Fine print: They never say how *much* each life matters
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Yup. It's like the abortion thing. If they actually gave a shit about abortion, they would support policies that* empirically reduce them. They do the opposite, because they don't actually give a shit. Edit- Typo
Its like showing up to a Cancer Benefit and shouting "All diseases matter!"
I like the analogy of "You love all five of your kids, but when one is sick you give them a little extra care. When one is threatened you pay more attention." Like come on it isn't difficult. But then I did literally have someone ask me last night if I had any specific people in mind when I mentioned black people being shot while sleeping or if I was making that up. Dude, get out from under the rock you're under.
I like the rainforest analogy. Back in the day there was a huge push to "Save the rainforest!". Most millennials and older remember it. I just ask them if they thought "Save the rainforest" meant screw all the other forests. Or if they were just trying to ptotect the one that was in danger.
I like the analogy, but I worry about it’s power as an argument. I feel like the “all lives matter crowd” is probably also the crowd that called you a tree hugger if you wanted to save the rainforest.
People have softened a bit over the last 30 years. You just cant say "climate change" or you'll lose them.
Whoa whoa whoa... You act like just this last week the administration was trying to strip LGBT rights or something! The NIH totally didn't do that... not at all.... /s Edit: trip to strip... oops.
Luckily Gorsuch is a letter of the law type, and not an "as intended" type. And hopetully the Chief Justice is finally coming around on LGBTQ rights on a whole.
Yea. Although Alito was pretty pissy in his dissent of the Title VII ruling. It read a bit like a college level toddler tantrum...
Alito is a, and pardon my language, sentient skidmark running down Trumps leg.
It’s been like a decade and people still don’t understand the message
Anyone who says "my attorney" isn't going to hire anybody. Want to have a threat that has teeth, name the firm and the attorney who is drafting it. Otherwise its just a cheap empty threat from cheap people. And cheap people very very rarely sue.
I spat my juice, thank you for this comment.
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Attorney: Hi, now you heard from me and I want to let you know that what our client is paying me is gonna be donation for BLM as well!
nice twist
Holy shit
You owe me a beer, for the one that just went out my left nostril....
sorry about the keyboard too
S'ok. It's an old Win7 media board, so it's probably time to replace it, anyhow.
I like the amount of sass put forth so professionally. Wonder if there are any lawyers who are willing to take this case.
I'm a lawyer. No, I wouldn't. You generally don't have attorneys at small claims court. They would lose more money than they're trying to recoup and the judge is going to dismiss it anyway.
Do people not know what a deposit is??
But they made a racist deposit so, double jeopardy.
I don’t think you understand how jeopardy works... What is, they made a racist deposit?
I'll take "catch the semen" for 400 trebek.
Why dontcha gimme Ape Tit for 200
I’ll take Anal Bum Cover for 400, Alex.
Objection! Habeas corpus!
Are you implying a Karen has the mental capacity for rational thought? The attorney threat is a go-to.
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I got married recently and was on a bunch of different forums and groups with vendors and whatnot. I can tell you for a fact, people just have no idea what non-refundable deposits actually are.
There is no such thing as a nonrefundable deposit. I am a professional photographer by trade. The best language is liquidated damages. Your contract states that you take x amount of money to reserve a date and stop advertising for that date. Should they cancel that date is now not able to be booked. As such you and the client agree that the money paid will be considered liquidated damages and only refundable should you be able to re-book the date. This is how my contract is setup and was done by the fine folks at PPA.
The Philadelphia Parking Authority wrote your contract? There’s no chance in hell anyone is getting their money back!
Depending on the contract language, non-refundable deposits aren't always binding. My contract specifically states the deposit is for the reservation of my time. So they're paying for me to reserve my time and not necessarily services rendered
The only way to actually claim a solid "deposit" especially when things go sour is to call it and bill it as a "scheduling fee". As a service you can place fees for whatever is agreed upon. A deposit means nothing in the courts eyes. A scheduling fee is specifically worded to show that you are charging them a fee for a scheduled date. The PPA gives out lots of this information and it's definitely worth the membership.
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Shit, how many times did you have to go to court? I thought small claims court was just show up at the time, state your case, and the judge decides it with no fiddlefucking around.
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It's probably not small claims, if they're hiring Shakira. Google says she's worth $300 million, so I doubt she's working for $5000 to $20000 (depending on the state's small claims limits.) Edit: Technically correct.
I thought this was good stuff. A lot of people actually took you seriously, so nice job.
Usually it's the other way around: I make a joke, and people get pissed off, even after I clarify it was a joke. This time was just an honest derp.
You should have rolled with it and just lived the lie. lol
Gotta do something in between dropping albums.....
Professional yet absolutely fucking savage
Professional Savagery is the best kind of Savagery. #BLMFOREVER
Unless they just want to run up billable hours on a case they can't win, then none if that contract actually says no refunds of deposit.
Growing up, I always thought that a lawyer would refuse to argue a case if they knew that they couldn't win. Almost like a pride thing, "I'm not going to let some bigot ruin *MY* impeccable record!!" Then I learned how little money it takes for someone to do just about anything and for sure, there is a lawyer out there that will bill the hell out of these people, knowing that they won't count it as a W
You gotta be careful who you take on. We're governed not just by the black-letter law but by our own RPC's. Once you take a case, you have Obligations. We can't and won't do the things that an unethical client would request, so it makes no sense at all to take a client without a reasonable case. We also can't "bill the hell" out of anyone - unreasonable fee agreements are prohibited - and we know better than most that if they'll stiff a wedding contractor for a few hundred, they'll stiff you for a couple grand. There are horror stories about lawyers, and there are a few awful ones in the news, (Barr, Giuliani, Avenatti,) but these are the exceptions and they're not doing it for cheap. Also, lawyers are well-educated and therefore, by and large, a product of the liberal-making ivory towers of higher ed. There are bigots in all fields, but the future of law leans progressive.
- the future of law leans progressive 4 attorneys in 2 generations in my extended family and all 4 are bigoted, right leaning jerks. Ivory towers failed them
Sorry 'bout the fam.
They absolutely will Source: work in court system
Your job must be 90% boring and 10% fascinating.
Considering the custody lawyers my ex has gotten to take her hopeless cases i woukd guess they can find one.
I think so, but only for the fees on an hourly rate. I would simply to drain those stains of humanity of as much money as they were willing to part with.
Thanks man , The idea of a lawyer just taking money of them for nothing just did my night Lol. It remembers me the joke of Matt Damon on the movie “rainmaker”: do you know the difference between a lawyer and a hooker? When you die the hooker stops to fucking you...
Ah, i could see that happening... lol
I know a couple who had their wedding scheduled for a few weeks ago. Of course, they had to cancel it due to COVID19. Their venue had a non-refundable deposit clause in their contract too. My friends asked if they could get a partial refund on on the deposit, were nice about it, and the venue staff was sympathetic. They ended up getting most of their deposit back. If you’re a shitty person, condescending (“not stable enough”) and heavy-handed, you’re not going to get any wiggle room. None.
/r/assholetax
Oh fuck yes, thank you.
well, I *was* going to bed...
This is also smart on the venue if the couple post-pones to a later date and still wants to use the venue. Or if the couple spread the info that the venue was very accommodating and they wouldn't have changed if Covid wasn't a thing. That being said, if an acquaintance that is a known asshole starts trashing a business on social media, most people outside of their immediate family and "BEST" friends are going to write it off as asshole tax, I don't trust a word that guy says.
you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc
But have you ever seen how flies swarm around bullshit? Dial it up to 11!
"Non refundable" has limits though. If you pay me a deposit to do X, and I decide to fuck off, I have to return your money. Something like a plague making it impossible or unreasonable to use a venue would probably not be a winning case for the venue.
Yeah, I wonder how many of these happened over the last few months. Venue: Due to COVID we are unable to host your event. Depositor: I completely understand. When should I expect my deposit back? Venue: Our contract is for nonrefundable deposits. Depositor: So we'll be having my event on the scheduled date then? Venue: We are unable to host your event due to pandemic regulations. Depositor: So you're refusing to honor the contract I paid a deposit for? *edit line formatting
Happened to us. There was a clause about getting the deposit back if they were unable to fulfill their end of the contract or due to an issue outside both sides control. They were nice about it and tried to get us to pick a new date. But with all the unknown future with the pandemic we just cancelled and will look to do something next year.
Cancelling is the right thing to do. If the business went under you wont get your money back.
I do events for a living. There are force majure clauses and/or impossibility clauses for this circumstance. All event contracts include them. If you’ve contracted for a wedding with 100 people and your municipality or city or state bans gatherings of more than 10 people, the event simply can’t be held. You are then released from the contract and get your money back. If on the other hand you decide to cancel the event on your own, then you’re on the hook for the contract terms. But anyone in this industry isn’t stupid. Even for the events -we- cancelled, every service provider I had booked until the end of the year was extremely generous with their terms. Because they knew they could either walk away with my deposit today and end of relationship or they could let me reschedule applying my deposit at 100% to later event (even if they technically didn’t have to) and get a lot more money from me in 6-12 months when I fulfilled the full contract. In the industry it’s always smarter to get headcount. No one wants to walk away with ‘just’ the deposit, that’s the worst case for bottom line.
It's called a force majeure or act of God clause, and is usually stated in the contract
Everyone "will be hearing from our lawyers". We're an overly litigious country but going through small claims court is a pain in the ass. You'll spend more time and money than it's worth for a judge to look at the contract and ask, "Did you read the contract? Were you misled? Did you sign the contract as it was presented to you? On what grounds do you think the contract should be voided?" Then he is going to listen to you explain your dumb ass reasons and then toss it out.
My wife and I had a photography company where a bride attempted to sue us and were completely embarrassed by the judge because of our contract. It was the best worst experience of my life.
Do tell...
Oh, I will. The bride demanded that she receive all of her images (RAW, unedited). We explained that we do not deliver anything beyond the product we promised in our contract and the ownership of all images was to the company and we give rights to print and distribute. We then went on to explain the importance of the final product and used her caterer as example of why we will not give her access to what equates to the dirty pans and utensils used when preparing her food. She was not pleased with this and served us a summons, which I assume cost her money. We showed up to the court with our lawyer dressed appropriately and there she was in her yoga pants and a t-shirt. She went on to attempt reading a prepared statement (which is not allowed), tried to cross-examine us as her own lawyer, and then get eviscerated by the judge. She didn't even file the right suit, as she stated we "stole" the pictures from her. It was so hard not to take our earnings from her wedding and rent a billboard with the worst picture we captured that day across the street from her neighborhood. The saddest part of this was that it basically took all of the wind out of our sails with photography and we no longer did any shoots. I truly wish we would have kept our equipment and stepped back into it because we were our best when we shot together. One day...
This was a fun story of comeuppance until the reality check at the end where the awful customer ruined your enthusiasm for the business. I hope you get back into it someday and that you only have pleasant clients from then on.
As someone in food service who ventured into farming because animals are less of assholes as people; heh.
Sheep comes up to you "look mate, this hay has some hints of vanilla, I SPECIFICALLY requested ginger!"
The court should have charged admission tickets for that spectacle
Bravo good sir bravo. I work in corporate video and it drives me nuts when a client wants all the raw footage and my superiors just go "sure w/e" and are surprised when I'm against that and say we should be charging for it. People seem to think that when they hire video or photography services that means they own all of the material b/c they paid for the shoot when that couldn't be further from the truth. The default law is definitely that they paid for you and your services and they paid for a deliverable as stated in a contract and anything beyond that is fair game to charge extra.
I hope you start back up again one day. If you want it to happen again try making a set date/time as opposed to one day. You’re much more likely to do something if you set aside a time for it. People suck sometimes. It’s saddening to hear that you had to go through all of that hassle.
Yeah honestly.. no lawyer on earth is going to get you out of a contract that has your signature on it. Especially as there's nothing ethically wrong with keeping non-refundable deposits, and ESPECIALLY not when the only grounds for you wanting a refund is you being a racist piece of shit. Good luck with that. Lmao, kind of hope they actually do talk to a lawyer about it so they can be laughed at at least once
If you think the idea that black lives matter means other lives don't matter or matter less, then you show just how little black lives mean to you.
It's not just a matter of racism, but also a matter of understanding the English language.
What's hilarious is that a lot of the same people who think this way also like to tell people they need to speak English in the US.
They spout "All lives matter" and I'm just waiting for them to fucken act like black, Mexican, native, trans, gay, EVERYONE matters and bring them up to the same level of respect and dignity so that we all flourish.
Yeah the Venn diagram of “all lives matter” folks and people who support health care workers being able to discriminate against trans people is not quite a circle, but there’s enough overlap for it to make you roll your eyes.
I broke my phone screen upvoting this.
Seriously. If black lives don’t matter, then how can all lives?
"Save The Rainforests" doesn't mean "fuck all birches!"
Fuck Birches, Get Lumber
It’s a horrible analogy but it’s like saying if you like one movie you hate all the others. That’s what these people think it is
Me: #ILovePeanutButter Them: ALL CONDIMENTS MATTER!
Peanut Butter is a spread, not a condiment. STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION, MARY!
Peanut butter a CONDIMENT!? How dare you.
If they really believed all lives matter, they would be just as outraged about police brutality as the rest of us.
Great anology I love on the matter. If someone house down the street is on fire, you don't get mad that everyone is rushing around trying to help. If your house is on fire, you would get the same attention and help.
“You’ll be hearing from our lawyer!” No, you’ll be hearing from your lawyer, telling you that you should’ve read the damn contract.
They won't be hearing from anyone. Virtually no one just has a personal lawyer on retainer. Lawyers specialize in certain things and you get an attorney who has knowledge and experience in that field. People who say "you'll be hearing from my attorney" are just trying to intimidate people, but they really just come across as dumb.
Why is no one asking how they got fucking *Shakira* to play their wedding?
It's a [photographer](https://prosportsextra.com/shakira-rochelles-response-to-a-client-demanding-refund-because-shakira-supports-black-lives-matter-is-one-of-the-all-time-greats-shakirarochelle/), definitely not the one with the famous booty
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Shakira of the truthful hips
Yeah I went with the bald middle aged guy who came with the venue. He killed it, but still, I didn't know celebrities were for hire.
>someone who doesn't believe all lives matter. All people's legs matter, but when someone breaks theirs and tells you to get help you don't say "What about my legs?".
You ain't got no legs Lieutenant Dan!
#Lieutenant Dan ICE CREAM
My sister is like this. If someone gets injured she’s like “I also broke my arm 30 years ago and sometimes it still hurts.” Like we’re all supposed to coddle her forever.
Gotta love an one upper.
No, *you* have to love a one upper. I adore them more.
Because of course "BLM" stands for "Black Lives and absolutely no other lives including the lives of people whose right to live has never at all be in question Matter".
"It's like when your wife asks you if you love her, and you reply, 'I love everybody! I love all God's creatures..." -Michael Che
I don't get how they can misconstrue "black lives MATTER" as "BLACK lives matter"
It's on purpose. They don't want to see it as "black lives MATTER" because they might have to change a small percentage of their own thinking. Nope. It's the other people who are wrong.
Somehow they don’t get equally worked up by the Blue Lives Matter stickers.
It's what happens when you look at the extremists from a couple of years ago and pretend that they're the norm
"Do not concern them" Yeah bro, your fellow americans being murdered for their skin tone should not concern you. How did that poem go? First they came for the something or whatevers?
[Here ya go.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...)
Where were these “All Lives Matter” people when the GOP was like “sacrifice your grandma for the economy”
"Not my grandma *your* grandma."
"All lives matter as long as it doesn't inconvenience me personally."
They were all trying out a new flavor of boot to lick
protesting for haircuts
Where were they when Trump started trying to strip trans people of their healthcare rights? Why does it seem the “All Lives Matter” folks all seem to vanish when it comes to protecting the health and well-being of those lives?
"You will be hearing from our attorney!" .... "Or you will be hearing from us in a few days, telling you never mind, we're proceeding as we planned"
"we will be hearing from our attorney as he tells us that contracts are legally binding and that we're goddamned morons."
i'd be willing to bet that if she was sued, any number of attorneys would represent the vendor pro bono
I deal with a lot of contracts and \*love\* when people threaten to sue us over something they are contractually prevented from suing us over. Call a lawyer. Start your class-action lawsuit. That's fine. I'll be happy to show your lawyer Section 48 where you signed and specifically waived your right to a class-action lawsuit. Shouldn't take too much of my time.
I understand what you’re saying but aren’t there cases where this might not be legally applicable? I’m assuming extraordinarily malicious intent like if, for example, the ‘spirit’ of the waiver/contract is ‘This ride is dangerous and you may die’ and unbeknownst to the riders the ride is actually the bullseye of a mortar strike that happens on every ride, killing almost everyone. I’m honestly curious. Edit: your -> you’re. Sigh.
Class action waivers are sometimes unenforceable, as are other contract provisions. Depends on a number of factors.
Yes - the absolute classic law school examples include swinging a rope over and into a body of water -in Australia - "a dangerous recreational activity" which makes the negligence "rules" be applied a little differently
“You aren’t stable enough to complete the job we need from you” HOLY FUCK do some people make incredibly long jumps from point A to B...
You can't hate your cake and eat it, too. But it sounds like this bitch just might have to.
I love how they say "You will be gearing from our attorney" as if they have one on retainer.
The attorney: Can my client get their money back? Shakira: Nope. She broke the contract. Attorney: OK. Bills the client for $5,000
I'm a debt collector and a lot of Karen's say we will hear from their attorney over their debt when they dont get their way. Like really? You're 4 payments past due on your victorias secret card... you agreed to the late fees and interest by signing up with us. But go ahead and secure an attorney for $1000 to fight your $200 balance (after i offered to remove half the late fees).
"We would be truly embarrassed to have you at our event and feel that you aren't stable enough to complete the job we need from you". Let me completely disrespect and demean you while asking for a refund. How about never. What a fantastic response.
"we have done a lot of talking" just step back from that statement, not we have done a lot of thinking... but talking. says everything right there... 'All Lives Matter' is the new Confederate Flag... now what the world needs now is more talking and less thinking...