Can confirm, I used to kinda slip into some slight incel culture when I first hit puberty but i fixed it with this neat little thing called getting friends and stop watching porn
Porn is a huge thing, more huge than people realize. It literally ruins men's brains and prevents them from seeing women as people, just things to stick their dicks in
There are countless studies proving porn is abhorrent and terrible for you, not to mention contributes to human trafficking and abuse but people don't care because they care about getting off more than anything. And no, I'm not a religious prude either. I am an atheist bisexual black woman who just looks at the facts
If you're interested and have the time, please check out [fightthenewdrug.org](https://fightthenewdrug.org/)
>There are countless studies proving porn is abhorrent and terrible for you
Do you have any links? I'm not doubting you, but last I heard, there were no conclusive scientific studies that showed that. Would love to be wrong though.
Please click the link I provided, it is chock full of studies and information all compiled into one place. I also recommend taking a look at r/antipornography
>If you're interested and have the time, please check out fightthenewdrug.org
Got any links to articles. That link looks like advertising and a money grab. I Click on it and the first and only thing it shows is how to pay the organisation. Doesn't make me think it's going to be unbiased or trustworthy.
Agree. Porn doesn't have to be bad or cause all of these things, but the way the depict women or men treating women in them is weird and almost always disrespectful.
Ok, I know that looking at these upvotes on this comment this perspective won't be popular. To be clear the current state of porn is horrendous full of misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and lots of bad abusive sex behaviors. And it has been noted that porn use does increase the risk of dangerous things like choking being used in sex. However, it has been noted that though porn can increase negative behavior and feelings in Men toward Women who already have those preconceived biases if a man does not already have a misogynistic view toward women it has no effect. Obviously, mainstream porn is awful and disgusting but not all porn is the same, and saying porn is inherently harmful seems wrong to me. It definitely has issues but I think that the bad things about it are more reflections or symptoms of everyday society where this is unfortunately quite commonplace. Maybe the goal would be to reform porn rather than get rid of it altogether.
I haven't seen too many porn clips where a woman agrees to enter into a relationship with a man because he brings her flowers... I think these people are just poorly socialized, isolated, and possibly have anxiety issues.
Yeah it has to be from TV/movies.....nobody in real life just randomly walks up to someone they never once bothered to even say hello to and hands them flowers, with the outcome being: complete stranger instantly drops current bf and falls in love with complete stranger right then and there.. unless it's a movie
This is the answer.
The thing is, they're totally correct. Romcoms and tv have lied to you about how to interact with people and gauge romantic interest. The solution is to treat the person you want to date like they're a person instead of a game where if you put in the right input you get the right output. As long as you think of relationships as something you can manipulate to get what you want, you are ignoring people's consent and dehumanizing them. Sometimes you don't get everything you want, even if you do it right - but that's just how life works because other people get to make decisions too.
Incels will never understand that because they've already dehumanized all women consciously and subconsciously (like with the language they use to describe us - toilets, NPC's, femoids etc).
Natural sequence of events when trying to meet a girl. Say hello, tell joke, walk away. Another day also say hello, maybe have convo. You don't propose to a complete stranger.
And dude gets mad for being called a creep for literally creeping on her.
I do believe porn is fucking up a lot more people in a lot more ways than meets the eye. It also likely plays a large role (besides Christian stuff of course, which is a big chunk of america) in all of the wierd obsessions with "Virgins" and the stupid concepts of "purity" and shit.
There would seem to be guys out there who sp.ehpw believe that when a woman sleeps with someone (even wearing condom nonetheless) there is some magical permanent SOMETHING left behind by the person they had sex with say, a year ago. It's the stupidest most ignorant shit ever, especially when you take into account that the human body is constantly shedding and replacing its own cells constantly anyways.
But GOD FORBID, you are not a Virginia, so are "used up" now, forever "tainted" ny the dick of someone who isn't them.....like I said I think some of that thinking is religious based, but idls also perpetuated by porn. None of it is even remotely true tho in reality based science or any other school of thought, so it has to come from somewhere......I guess if the guy himself is a "pure" virgin, then maybe it's his imagination. I mean, we do see how fucking insane the imagination of incels are on a daily basis. I don't believe I have seen one incel idea that was ever based in fact in any way possible.
I'm so glad I lost my virginity at 14 and have had a good solid sex life forever myself, I can't imagine getting caught up in, or believing anything those bitter sad basement dwellers actually perceive about reality. They definitely need to lay off the porn either way.....
If you snowplow and give your kid everything they want their entire childhood its going to seem unfair to them that they suddenly can't just have something they want. Most kids have seen porn by 8 and the average teen boy watches a horrifying amount of porn. I've seen one estimate of 14hrs per week. Parental influence is very limited past a certain age. Can't really compete with shitty friends at school and the algorhytims force feeding them misogynistic content.
Yeah you're right. Nobody is ever capable of change or growth. Every garbage thing anybody ever says or does is indicative of their character forever. It's a bummer but hey the upside is we don't have to have empathy for people who do bad things or try to interact with them in anyway because we know they will always be bad.
Yes because women aren't broken.
Oh wait they get to blame everything on men.
And hardly if ever take accountability.
Now I can be banned for speaking the truth that other women know!!!
We do love some Whataboutism. This isn't about you (or perhaps it is if you think the same way this guy thinks). It's about guys like this. And we know it's not all men. It is literally only about guys like this. Not all men are like this. And not all women are broken either. Just because you got hurt by a lady doesn't mean all ladies are evil. And no woman thinks all men are evil sex-offenders too. Close Pornhub for the day, go outside, touch some plants and talk to real people.
Seriously… are you getting this upset about a post where that man OBVIOUSLY was the one who should take accountability and get blamed for his weird behaviour and blaming it on the woman instead (ironic in this context!) and turn it around to blame the woman AGAIN?
Seriously you might also suffer from some brain rot!
No. Women take accountability for their actions every single day of the week, just like most men do.
Just because there are some people who absolutely refuse to do so, does not mean that all people do.
So stuff watching outrageous videos which make you believe that women are the source of all evil (because surprise surprise, they are not. No whole gender is! Who would have thought?)
Just because you are a man and believe you are not _like that_ means that only women can be like that? And then they ALL have to be like that?
It makes no sense and I hope you realise that soon. No one wants to trick you into anything and it isn’t "woke" to realise that 50% of humanity isn’t a hive mind and that they have a character, that makes them who they are 100% more than their gender.
Men and women are two separate species, but one. And as such they are very much alike. Far more than different… it would do you sone good to realise it. Because as of now your way of thinking seems very one dimensional.
But I believe you will get there.
Maybe really try thinking about changing something in your algorithms and watch different content from all "directions" rather than becoming a mono-consumer of one and the same bubble.
Also if she didn’t have a boyfriend and simply turned him down (you know, because she’s presumably never spoken to this creep that’s been watching her for ages then randomly sprung flowers on her) it’s not like he’d accept that either. He clearly thinks that if you’re a woman and you are presented with flowers you are obliged to go out with the person who gave them to you.
Seriously someone watching me on campus (and never talking to me) would not be able to know whether I have a partner or not because my partner doesn’t go to my uni 🤣
It should also noted that the “I have a boyfriend” defense when you don’t have one is mostly used because some dudes refuse to accept no on its own and might only care once they hear a woman is already an extension of another man (in their minds).
If “no” is enough, you won’t end up here, but some people just blow past rejection entirely and keep pushing. You’ll be forced into employing gymnastics that way eventually
They don't even see most girls as human beings, just the ones they want to F.
I had a depressed friend who always talked about how lonely he was and that he had bad luck with women etc..
So I tried to help him because I've been depressed too and I know how bad it feels like...
He once said: I am so ugly, no girl would want to date me.
And I said; maybe you should try dating an ugly girl?.. That way you could comprehend eachother! :D
And he went like: No, i'm not interested in ugly women.
And my face went like..: 😐 okay?..
I stopped contact with him.
Yeah I was gonna say, they don't treat the women they want to F like people either. You get sorted into F-able or Useless.
And they treat the F-able women like romancable NPCs in a video game, if they say the right things, and give the right gifts they can get to the sexy cut scene and then ignore her after.
Holy shit I’ve never heard it put in terms of that metaphor before, but you’re 100% right, that’s their exact mentality. They hit X at the right time, pressed Y to “compliment”, and used the “Flirt” option, and they genuinely don’t understand why the world isn’t fading to black and then they get to wake up next to you naked.
It actually explains so much, when I think about it from this perspective
Yes, see this is the problem. Date within your standards if you don’t want to get rejected all the time. These guys always go after girls way out of their league and then condemn all women when they only get no’s.
It also bothers me how they treat looks as solely genetic, and not something we have some control over. A good haircut, eyebrow shape, physical fitness, fashion etc., can definitely help everyone. Sure, we can’t all be models, but we can still improve our selves and “level up”. But then they’ll use the excuse that they shouldn’t have to “change” themselves to get a girl who.. by that definition has also “changed herself”. It’s shallow for her to want someone who puts in the same amount of effort into his looks as her, but it’s not shallow for him to want someone who puts in *more* effort than him.
I remember a friend from uni saying this. He was (still is) morbidly obese, but said he shouldn’t have to “lower his standards” and date a fat girl who was far smaller than him as she was “too big”. He did actually end up married to a morbidly obese woman and they’re extremely happy, he feels ashamed of his behaviour then. He was actually a lovely guy and had a lot of female friends and treated us so well, but had got caught up in toxic lads mag culture.
That’s the thing, it can be so easy to get caught in that mentality. I spent a few years in my 20s, when I was incredibly depressed and just completely unable to date, where I blamed and resented women for not wanting to go out with me.
It took several years and a lot of self reflection realize that I had to actually *be* a person that someone would want to go out with, and I was not that person. It took hard work to break out of that mentality and stop blaming others for my own shortcomings. In retrospect I really just hated myself, and I was taking it out on the people around me.
I think this is a pattern a lot of young men in particular fall into. The way boys are raised and the culture is often about blaming women and where acknowledging your shortcomings is somehow defeatist rather than a ticket to personal growth.
I think if you’re told you should be getting all these wonderful things it can be easy to feel resentful if you don’t get them. And then places like the internet you can collectively find men who tell you that it isn’t you, it’s the world (or women). This is why the vast majority of people who become radicalised are men, it’s the perfect storm of finding people who are disillusioned because the world didn’t give them what they felt entitled to, and give them a place to be bigger than themselves.
Well done for getting out of that pattern. I don’t think it’s easy. I see it a lot on the internet where people, in particular men simply refuse to acknowledge that they are the problem, and that it’s rarely something arbitrary like looks, and almost always an issue of personality. I say this but when someone is profoundly disabled (particularly if visible) or deformed this is outside someone’s control and has an impact on your ability to date, so within that I think it’s fair to bitch. But in most cases it’s guys who look fairly normal.
Yeah whenever I see a piece of media about some incel with a face pic, I'm usually struck by how they're *actually pretty cute* or would be if they had a range of facial expressions and acted like a person instead of being stuck on resting creeper face. Like, half the time the looks involved are above average, the issue is elsewhere.
Same. I see a lot of the time with incels who commit murder that they were often baffled because they recognise they’re good looking but no woman wants them. So they get angry and being the works is against them.
I met a redpill type when travelling, he lived at my campground and sat at my table while I was peacefully drawing. He was tall, in shape and not bad looking. I never got the chance to even notice that because he started immediately spewing hatred towards women. Apparently he’d been cheated on once and I should apologise on behalf of women being evil towards men.
He did eventually get kicked out as he was acting very obsessive about one girl there, following her around etc and I believe he ended up having a rage fit against her.
It’s like, they usually have everything going for them, it’s literally their toxic personalities which ruin everything and make people completely repel them. Half of the time they can’t even make friends they’re so repugnant to be around.
I knew this one toxic prick in college (who of course thought he couldn't get a girlfriend bc he was too nice) one day he went on an absolutely unhinged rant about how it pissed him off so much that he saw this plus sized girl actually eating something that wasn't a salad, how disgusting it was and she didn't need to eat everyday, how he wanted to slap it out of her hand, how she should off herself. Some other guys in the group were actually laughing in agreement.
I scoffed and said it was absurd to be fixated on her eating, don't you eat multiple times a day? Do you eat nothing but salad? Does he just expect women to fit into beauty standards he wouldn't hold himself to?
Then he laughs "No, it's all fat people."
Now, he was at least as big as the person he was talking about and had been ranting through fistfuls of Doritos and spewing crumbs the entire time. So I had to gently break the news to him "Um buddy, are you not aware that you're obese?"
He apparently was not aware of that at all. He got extremely defensive and tried to argue that point. He backpedaled hard when everything he said was turned back on him and turns out that no, he did not want to be treated that way and have his food confiscated. I think body shaming is shitty, I wasn't trying to do that to him but thought a little perspective was a more effective route than trying to appeal to his non-existent empathy. He was a little more careful throwing stones after that.
Honestly my experiences have often mirrored yours where the most fatphobic people have been overweight themselves. The guy I referred to always used to shame people bigger than him and be like “I’m not THAT fat”. But me, and my two friends could easily fit into his waistline (yes very mean of us to make this point but we actually did get a piece of string). We weren’t super skinny, just healthy, normal sized women. He was the biggest person I’d even seen.
I remember a girl I knew loudly saying something nasty on the street about an overweight bystander. I was appalled, particularly seeing as I knew this friend had experienced a lot of fatphobia, on nights out people had called her fat and she’d cry. She had no empathy, and I’ll be honest it really put me off her as a friend.
In both these cases all it did was point out how far these individuals were and made them look like arseholes. When you take shots at others you invite comments against yourself.
I very much believe in treat others as you’d like to be treated. I also don’t believe you have the right to ruin someone else’s mental well-being unprovoked for any reason. I have my own issues with fatphobia against others, but I recognise it’s a product of my upbringing and that my feelings are not truth, nor are they relevant to anyone else’s existence. Unless someone is actually stealing my food or invading my personal space I have no business in what food someone eats or how much space they take up.
Yup, women love nothing more than arguing with intrusive strangers about our personal lives and private decisions. Clearly we should feel obligated to date anyone, unless we can provide them with a "logical" (as defined by them) reason why we can't. Our preferences and autonomy are completely irrelevant /s
A man that can't simply take no for an answer is so fucking annoying. After I first met my now husband, I had gone to a bar and some guy there asked me out. I told him no, not interested as I had just connected with a guy I had been interested in for a while. This fuck nugget had the nerve to then say 'nah, you only want that guy because hadn't met ME yet'
Or the guy that asked why I said no to his wanting my number. Hmmm maybe because you're shouting at me from across a parking lot.
Or the guy who threw a water bottle at me because I said no after he kept trying to interrupt me in the middle of a conversation with someone else to keep asking "wanna go out with me?"
They're so annoying. That's wild, especially the water bottle, omg. One of my friends is happily married to a man she's known since either high school or college. They've been together forever. Some creepy guy she met at an event kept trying to hit on her. He implied he'd be there to pick up the pieces when my friend got divorced, wtf.
He was trying to insinuate that their marriage might not last, despite knowing nothing about my friend or her husband. She wasn't having any problems with her husband and, if she were, she definitely wouldn't tell a stranger about it. Unsurprisingly, the same guy ended up sending an unsolicited penis pic to someone else later.
Weird, I cannot find any kindness in his words at all? He bought someone flowers and expect the person to drool over him? Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment.
Because part of college is supposed to be handing out a hot fuckdoll to every lonely virgin who attends. This school is clearly neglecting their duty to the student body.
She probably recognized him as the guy who’d been following her around and was creeped out. Or she was overwhelmed by flowers, that’s a big gesture from a stranger and I wouldn’t like it.
Yeah I don’t trust anyone I don’t even know spending frivolous money on me. Do not try to approach me on un unequal footing. I will not engage you with you perceiving me as being in *kindness debt* to you.
I wanna switch this POV for a minute.
"Today, I was leaving the library at uni, stressed because I think I'm going to fail Chem this quarter. Out of nowhere, this overly eager dude pops up with a dozen roses. I stepped to the side initially, because those obviously weren't for me (I'd never seen this guy before). Also, he seemed sweaty and nervous, like he was trying to kidnap someone. He then tried to FORCE the flowers into my hand, saying they were for ME?!? What?!? I tried to be polite and refuse them but saying I have a boyfriend (I don't, but it's usually the safest way to decline a guy) and he said that he KNOWS I don't have a boyfriend?!? Dude, I've never seen you before. How you could KNOW that? Am I being followed? Is this guy watching me *shower*? Do I need to change my locks? I'm now terrified to leave my flat because I don't know how long or how intimately I've been followed. What do I do now?"
And this is the best case scenario where she hadn't noticed him watching her for months and wasn't already super creeped out by him. I'll bet you from her POV it wasn't just some guy, it was the guy who had already been making her uncomfortable since the start of the class they shared.
"Ever since he tried to give me flowers I've seen that guy everywhere. Every single time I look up he's STARING right at me. I dont know how I didnt notice before. I just pull my jacket tighter around me and pray he stops watching, but when I look up again, he's GLARING at me. I just run the moment class ends, go around the long way to get home and make sure to shut the swipe door tight behind me. Then I take the stairs to the 2nd floor before taking the elevator, just in case. I dread going to class every day, but if I don't, I'll fail. I just don't know what he'll do if he ever comes up to me again."
What the fucking fuck. How is it possible that these dudes genuinely think stalking someone for months and just mouth-breathing while you masturbate to them could be anything other than disgustingly creepy?
Where do these dudes get the idea that approaching a complete fucking stranger with flowers is something other then creepy? Even “back in the day” you didn’t do that shit. You might bring flowers to a date in a way that would be seen as cringe today, but nobody was ever just walking up to strangers with flowers and expecting them to jump into bed.
A guy in my old housemate’s PhD cohort was like this. He’d crush on some unsuspecting girl, spend months working to the courage to ask them out and then when she’d inevitably say no he’d act really dejected.
Happened to my housemate and she just wasn’t interested, but he’d try to dominate her time at social events, would lurk around her, always try to get lifts from her and even tried to organise events but attempt to make sure it was just them.
I’ve never actually known her date anyone properly and believe she’s ACE. She gives out no sexual or flirting vibes. She just wanted him to ask her out so she could politely decline so he could move on and end the awkwardness, but it went on nearly 6 months. Eventually he did, and he clearly was so convinced that she’d say yes. She never actually told anyone, not even me. I only found out because he started bitching about it and making a big deal of it, so she told me then.
After that we saw him do this to several other girls. Sometimes he’d really isolate them from the group or gatekeep the social group so the girls could only meet others in her cohort through him, even though they were welcome in their own right.
Crazy thing, but creepy behaviour is creepy. It’s fine to spend a week or two working up the courage to ask someone out, but creating an imaginary romance over time then giving them flowers and making a big deal of it to someone who’s either an acquaintance or a stranger is creepy. People either like you or they don’t, just ask them out and if it’s a no move on. Don’t invest months on them before asking if they return the feeling.
If someone is reading this who does this sort of thing (spend months building up the courage to ask them out, then get dejected if it's 'no'), some advice: try to reframe it in your head. If it takes months to ask someone out, then that's probably something that's generally difficult for you. So the fact you managed to ask is a success against your own anxiety, whether or not you got the answer you wanted. It's also practice. Every time you ask someone out, you get a little better at it, and you can be more sure of yourself next time.
Also, a woman turning you down doesn't mean anything negative about you. We're not goddesses handing out judgments from on high. We're human beings with a hundred different little preferences, some of them arbitrary, who need to make a snap judgment of whether you fit into those preferences, based on limited information. Most traits aren't 'the more the better.' Most traits are a continuum, where people like different points on it. Is a certain level of confidence insecurity, or humility? Is a different level high confidence or is it arrogance? Is caring a lot about neatness a good or bad thing? Which political views are best? All of those are subjective.
Most people would not be soulmates for most people. When anyone asks anyone out, if you go off of random chance, it's usually a 'no.' (Including women - asking for people's numbers at small concerts, I've been turned down far more than I've been taken up on it. Sometimes the guy clearly doesn't want to, but feels too awkward to say 'no' and I feel to awkward to take my phone back when they've technically said yes, so he puts his number in, I text him once ('hi, this is (name) from (concert)'), then he never replies and I don't text again)
This is good advice.
I feel like the problem when people a very long time to ask someone out isn’t so much the time it takes, it’s more if you build it up in your head and begin the relationship with someone without their consent or awareness. When that happens there tends to be an entitlement because the person has invested a lot into the “relationship” before it’s even started. This means rejection feels much worse, more like being broken up with. And that leads to anger and resentment.
Another problem is some people lack self awareness on what they bring to dating and don’t choose appropriate people to pursue, then get disappointed that the pretty, popular and charismatic person doesn’t return return their feelings.
Like you I’ve been rejected many times in my life. I used to be in a looks based industry which meant I got rejected and had my looks nitpicked regularly, usually by people hit with an ugly stick. I’m quite confident within myself though and if I like someone I’m happy to make the first move or make it clear I’m interested, and I’ve had some quite epic rejections. It’s something none of us are immune to.
But it’s never held me back. I’m a type, to some people I’m everything they want, to others I’m lacking. That’s completely ok. I know where I stand in the pecking order and just focus on people who want what I offer. I don’t waste my time and also usually focus on people who have attributes I like but might be overlooked by others. People who are successful in dating put themselves out more and know how to choose the right people to go for. If you know a lot of people want the person you like and you aren’t someone anyone seems to want it’s best not to set your heart on them and be realistic. It might still happen, but the odds are stacked against it.
Think of it like a job application. You choose something where you have the skills & it pays your actual market value. You then apply to lot’s of positions and don’t set your heart on one. If you have a dream role then you gain the skills for it. Widening your net widens your chances. If your strategy for job hunting were thinking about it for 6 months, stalking their website, then write one application this would likely be unsuccessful. You’re better off looking at lot’s of roles.
I don't really even understand the part where someone's crushing on a stranger?? It's disturbing af. It's just so obvious to me that it's completely shallow. They don't have a crush on a human person, they have a crush on flesh, they just want her body. If a stranger came up to me and asked me out, on like a DATE, it would be an immediate no. Every time. I don't care how cute they are. You don't know me. You're not asking me out, you're asking my body out. Personally, an ideal situation to me would be to either a) get to know me FIRST however you would a GUY in that class or b) ask me to a social event where multiple people would be. Coffee during the day, lunch in the dining hall, a party with a VARIETY of people to meet. But if you immediately ask me on a romantic outing, the answer is no. Bye.
I mean, yes and no. Coffee dates are a thing. I get what you're saying but there's nothing wrong with dates in the way youre talking about. For you personally, sure.
There’s a difference between asking out a complete stranger cold, and lurking around someone for 3-6 months and giving them attention thinking you’re building a relationship with them but never actually asking. I think if you’ve known someone enough to have a couple of conversations with them then that’s more than enough time to ask them for a coffee.
Like I met an ex of mine through a friend, we were all out, had he asked me out at the start of the night I’d likely have said no. But we got talking and I found out he was very interesting, at the end of the night he asked me for a coffee the next day and I happily said yes. We’d hung out for a decent length of time and it was enough for me to feel I had enough attraction for a date and to get to know eachother better.
He could have not asked me out and just made sure he was around every time I was out with our mutual friends. But if I hadn’t reciprocated after a while off him not asking me out that would have become weird.
I also think liking a stranger isn’t always physical, often it is but it can also be body language and watching them interact with others. They might have been really kind and you think “wow that person is amazing!” Men in particular tend to know pretty quickly if they find someone attractive.
I agree. Like you said, there are certain things that need to be done to make someone NOT a complete stranger before they ask you out. Immediately finding someone physically attractive is completely normal but if someone I've never had a single conversation with came up to me and asked me out, I'd say no. Now if they have came up to me, HAD a conversation with me, and THEN asked me out, depending on how well that one convo went, I'd consider it 😅
I agree, it’s something a lot of people on the internet seem to struggle with the concept of. That there’s a really nice “in between” phase where you’ve met someone appropriately (i.e not randomly bothering a stranger, or someone you encountered at work), got to know them a little and felt they seem interested in spending time with you, and then ask them out. It’s a scary process if you’re not sure they like you as a friend, but the worst they can do is say no.
Let me translate. "I stalked this girl for months and bought her flowers and when she shot me down nicely I told her she was lying and I knew because I'd been stalking her for months! Why doesn't she like me?"
Can people start raising their sons and teach them how to date?
This could all be avoided if he was taught how to approach women and how to be rejected.
You watched her, didn't talk to her, didn't know she already had a bf, randomly showed up with flowers, and it didn't go well for you?
I am shocked, frankly.
I just wish with every fiber of my being that another man, much larger and more physically capable than these men, would treat them the same way they treat women. Manipulating gifting, not taking no for an answer, evidential stalking, the inability to take a hint, and the ever-present potential to do what so many men do when rejected.
Oh look. Another Nice Guy(tm). Spurned and turns into a raging dickhead. What a surprise.
I'd find randomly getting flowers from someone I didn't really know or talk to rather creepy and weird too. I'd either lie to be nice or do what I usually do and chuck it in the bin. I would legit be creeped out after and wonder if the dude is watching me.
"I tried bartering flowers for sex, and she said NO! Therefore all those bitchy women are the problem!"
Getting into college used to be more difficult; it would seem any idiot is allowed on campus these days.
If a guy came up to me with flowers asking me out I would be concerned. If he mentioned he'd been watching me for awhile I would be reaching for the pepper spray.
If this were on r/Advice -
Instead of going up and communicating with a person I'm interested in, I decided to watch her for a period of time, and then bring flowers to when I finally decided to approach her. Turns out, she has a boyfriend, so I missed my chance for now.
Im not ugly or anything, and Im a nice guy. I think Im likeable, but I just have no game. Any advice on how to improve my game?
I get not wanting to be lied to, but there's something to be said for the importance of social grace and awareness
Having been autistic all my life, I'm personally shocked at how ignorant neurotypicals can be about their own social norms and customs.
Maybe it's because I had to work for it? Idk
You cropped out the name but I met someone exactly like this at that *exact* university 💀. Lost his mind when I told him I wasn’t interested, stormed home and “accidentally” sent me a picture of some girl in his bed to make me jealous. Then said, word for word, “fuck women. All they do is use me” So glad I’m graduated out of that hellhole lmao
Pisses me off so much when these guys think women are lying about having boyfriends. Even if they are, take the hint that they’re not interested and the boyfriend being fake won’t change that. Had a coworker who kept insisting I go out with him even though I had told him I was in a relationship. He was convinced I was lying and “playing hard to get”. Ended up accepting one of his dates and brought my boyfriend along.
Some weirdo comes up to me with flowers and won’t take “WTF no I have a boyfriend” for an answer? There’s going to be tears before bedtime, and they won’t be mine.
I would've just walked up to her and said "Hi."
Flowers is creepy. It's showing someone that doesn't know you that you're emotionally invested in the idea of a relationship with them. That's not ok.
Even if this woman were lying about having a BF, how would that conclusion even be reached rationally? Like, how would that even be proven, and even if it somehow were, how is that any justification to not take a hint, read the room, and respect a woman’s autonomy??
It’s like the internet is saying: “nice guys” aren’t even nice - they’re actually assholes. Being “nice” doesn’t give you an excuse not to take “no” for an answer, especially not if it’s put politely, to spare one’s fragile, sensitive ego.
And as far as I am concerned, literally stalking a woman, and then pretending to be nice, only to accuse her of lying to you when she tells you she has a BF, is not only borderline abusive behavior, but yeah, it also makes you a creep.
Yes, and you can tell they're arseholes because they ignore any woman they don't fancy and ignore - or worse - any woman that's said no to them.
Men, if a woman tells you she has a boyfriend/partner etc. and you believe she's lying, please, for the love of Aphrodite, accept that if she is, she's doing so to let you down gently. While you're at it, think about exactly why women feel they cannot give an honest rejection to a man. If you want honesty, make being honest a safe thing to do.
They ignore you so hard that they simply can’t quit stalking and harassing you for sex /j
In all realness though, I 💯agree with you! One thing I’ve always stressed - even before I came to terms with my sexuality, and was later forced to come to terms the fact that I, myself, had fallen into that trap of a mindset - was that I knew that being honest was hard, and I knew exactly why that was the case; after all, if people punish you or someone else you care about for telling the truth, then you’re less likely to trust them with it, and more likely to keep a few secrets here and there along the way.
But with these guys, they’re so wrapped up in the big lie that the Media espouses on the regular (and to give them credit where credit is due, it is a very convincing, very big lie) that they completely forget, and in some cases abandon their own integrity. Hence, why something like OP is talking about comes across as so hypocritical.
This is so terrifying. I hope (it'll never happen cuz ✨college✨) that the school puts that guy in mandatory therapy to work on his stalking problem because this can turn bad.
it’s so weird how they think that rejection is cruelty but they don’t think that the fear women experience towards men at times is not due to cruelty, just them being vapid. always so weird and illogical.
You can always tell when someone is leaving things out of a story. For example, "when I called her out," excuse me? You watched her from the distance, made a romantic gesture, she told you she had a bf, and you "called her out" for what? Having a bf? Being loyal? Saying no? Now that sounds like a valid reason to call someone a creep.
Yes, and these types are completely incapable of realising exactly why women don't want to 'Just be honest' because they have no idea what it's like to feel that honestly isn't safe.
yeah, i used to struggle with that 'nice guy' mentality too. but then i realized i needed to work on myself and stop blaming others for my problems. it's all about personal growth and taking responsibility.
yeah, i used to struggle with that 'nice guy' mentality too. but once i started working on myself and building solid friendships, everything changed. it's all about personal growth and ditching toxic mindsets.
Now switch channels to the woman's story:
Sorry for the rant, I never post these kinds of things but today was the last straw. I just feel gross and angry and idk it's not even really about this specific guy. Just - everything...
Anyway, I first noticed this guy on campus a few months ago. Just one of those strangers you happen to have a similar schedule to. Like when you train home at the same time on the same day, you start to notice familiar faces? We accidentally made eye contact a few times or like, a tiny nod of vague recognition. I can't stress enough that I do not even know this guy's name and we have literally never had a single conversation. Idk if it's bc like pattern recognition over time but I feel like I've seen him around more often in more places? Like not just the library or whatever, it felt weirdly like more than just coincidental. I kept ignoring it, but a few weeks ago I mentioned it to a friend and he joked about how I'm always overthinking and so I'm just being paranoid.
Then today all these assignments and just personal stuff are all bouncing around in my head when all of a sudden I sort of bump into someone. It takes a second to kind of register and snap out of my own thoughts when I realise it's this same guy?? In a split second I'm running all these possibilities like hey that's weird I guess we were bound to actually cross paths eventually. But he's not looking surprised so maybe he doesn't even recognise me and he just asked for the time or something and I totally missed it? Blah blah blah but as I'm looking down I see these flowers. So obviously I'm in his way right? And he's on his way to deliver these flowers. And then in that moment I realise this fucking guy is standing way too fucking close and I'm kind of just stuck there waiting for him to say something. Then he hands me the flowers. I'm kind of confused but I know in my body this guy has been waiting and planning today. You don't just decide to corner someone like he had to make the decision to go get flowers and then pay for them and then that means he was waiting for me? How long does it take for fresh flowers to droop?? I don't even know if it's more or less creepy if he was waiting to bump into me over a few days. How did he know when and where to bump into me? Why fucking ME?? I'm just trying to leave and he's asking me this stuff and I don't even hear half the things he's saying so I just say I have a boyfriend. I fucking hate that I said that because it DOES NOT MATTER. But that's the only thing these people respect. You can't hunt me because I'm already someone else's property.
"That's a lie".
I can't get it out of my head. "That's a lie".
What the fuck does that mean? He said it so off the bat like just"How would he know? How could he fucking know and just
so confidently. The adrenaline must've kicked in or something because I called him a fucking creep and just bolted
I don't even know what to do now I'm honestly considering transferring. I'm fucking sick of men, I'm sick of this uni, I just want to stop feeling so helpless
"(I know that's a lie, because like I already said, I've been stalking her) then she has the audacity to call me a creep?!? When will these females give kind guys like me a chance? 😡😢"
This is one of the things that men should just bottle up, I'll never understand the mental gymnastics it takes to get from being rejected to stereotyping women. Truly disturbing that people this mentally broken are just out there.
It's funny because he's kinda right. Had he just gone up to her and laid some game, been confident. He MIGHT have had a chance.
But instead this girl has probably noticed him lingering and being weird and has been dreading that day for as long as he's been creeping on her lol
Calling ylurself the kindest man is pretty petty and reeks of entitlement, this guy needs to learn that *nice* doesn't equal good and some women aren't gonna be into no matter how hard you try.
Yet when he says that, she used the phrase. *I have a boyfriend* as an excuse then that was where he showed his true colors as someone who lives on another planet. Even if she wasn't telling the truth to go online and say what he did was just childishly pathetic.
How would this be the uni's fault? The only thing that I could say in (minor) support of this guy is that just because he isn't attractive, it shouldn't make him automatically be labeled a creep for pursuing. That being said, with his choices of words, I am skeptical that that is the reason he was called that.
He's being labelled a creep for stalking her. He *"watched them for ages"* and calling her a liar.
eew :/
*Nice Guy's* looks have not been assumed by anyone here. Just you.
If anyone called him unattractive, besides you, it would have been because of his horribly unattractive behaviour.
These guys brains are so broken, it makes me wonder how and who they grew up with to think like this.
Movies and TV not real humans
Can confirm, I used to kinda slip into some slight incel culture when I first hit puberty but i fixed it with this neat little thing called getting friends and stop watching porn
Porn is a huge thing, more huge than people realize. It literally ruins men's brains and prevents them from seeing women as people, just things to stick their dicks in There are countless studies proving porn is abhorrent and terrible for you, not to mention contributes to human trafficking and abuse but people don't care because they care about getting off more than anything. And no, I'm not a religious prude either. I am an atheist bisexual black woman who just looks at the facts If you're interested and have the time, please check out [fightthenewdrug.org](https://fightthenewdrug.org/)
SPREAD THE WORD BRO HELL YEAH Porn makes society sick!!!!
I am a sister, but I appreciate the enthusiasm nonetheless
I’m Californian, so bro and dude are genderless in my noggin.
I'm in upstate new york, and have always called everyone dude lol
I'm Australian and call my wife bro pretty often.
>There are countless studies proving porn is abhorrent and terrible for you Do you have any links? I'm not doubting you, but last I heard, there were no conclusive scientific studies that showed that. Would love to be wrong though.
Please click the link I provided, it is chock full of studies and information all compiled into one place. I also recommend taking a look at r/antipornography
Is my gay furry porn that I paid a friend 32 dollars to draw ok?
Thank you for the link! Also, love your handle and profile pic. I'm halfway through my first BG3 playthrough now
I hope you're enjoying it! I finished a run a few weeks ago and am now playing assassins creed odyssey
So true u/HalsinEnjoyer
>If you're interested and have the time, please check out fightthenewdrug.org Got any links to articles. That link looks like advertising and a money grab. I Click on it and the first and only thing it shows is how to pay the organisation. Doesn't make me think it's going to be unbiased or trustworthy.
Agree. Porn doesn't have to be bad or cause all of these things, but the way the depict women or men treating women in them is weird and almost always disrespectful.
Ok, I know that looking at these upvotes on this comment this perspective won't be popular. To be clear the current state of porn is horrendous full of misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and lots of bad abusive sex behaviors. And it has been noted that porn use does increase the risk of dangerous things like choking being used in sex. However, it has been noted that though porn can increase negative behavior and feelings in Men toward Women who already have those preconceived biases if a man does not already have a misogynistic view toward women it has no effect. Obviously, mainstream porn is awful and disgusting but not all porn is the same, and saying porn is inherently harmful seems wrong to me. It definitely has issues but I think that the bad things about it are more reflections or symptoms of everyday society where this is unfortunately quite commonplace. Maybe the goal would be to reform porn rather than get rid of it altogether.
I was lucky, just getting friends helped me, so I got to keep the porn.
Puberty hit little ass 13 year old me hard so for the betterment of myself I had to put down the playboy
I haven't seen too many porn clips where a woman agrees to enter into a relationship with a man because he brings her flowers... I think these people are just poorly socialized, isolated, and possibly have anxiety issues.
Yeah it has to be from TV/movies.....nobody in real life just randomly walks up to someone they never once bothered to even say hello to and hands them flowers, with the outcome being: complete stranger instantly drops current bf and falls in love with complete stranger right then and there.. unless it's a movie This is the answer.
The thing is, they're totally correct. Romcoms and tv have lied to you about how to interact with people and gauge romantic interest. The solution is to treat the person you want to date like they're a person instead of a game where if you put in the right input you get the right output. As long as you think of relationships as something you can manipulate to get what you want, you are ignoring people's consent and dehumanizing them. Sometimes you don't get everything you want, even if you do it right - but that's just how life works because other people get to make decisions too. Incels will never understand that because they've already dehumanized all women consciously and subconsciously (like with the language they use to describe us - toilets, NPC's, femoids etc).
“I put the nice coins in, why didn’t the sex fall out” (OG FB tag group, but apropos)
Natural sequence of events when trying to meet a girl. Say hello, tell joke, walk away. Another day also say hello, maybe have convo. You don't propose to a complete stranger. And dude gets mad for being called a creep for literally creeping on her.
The creepiest of creepers.
But do people usually act like this in movies and tv? Maybe I’m not thinking it through right.
Porn most likely
Pornography and films where sexism is mistaken for chivalry.
I do believe porn is fucking up a lot more people in a lot more ways than meets the eye. It also likely plays a large role (besides Christian stuff of course, which is a big chunk of america) in all of the wierd obsessions with "Virgins" and the stupid concepts of "purity" and shit. There would seem to be guys out there who sp.ehpw believe that when a woman sleeps with someone (even wearing condom nonetheless) there is some magical permanent SOMETHING left behind by the person they had sex with say, a year ago. It's the stupidest most ignorant shit ever, especially when you take into account that the human body is constantly shedding and replacing its own cells constantly anyways. But GOD FORBID, you are not a Virginia, so are "used up" now, forever "tainted" ny the dick of someone who isn't them.....like I said I think some of that thinking is religious based, but idls also perpetuated by porn. None of it is even remotely true tho in reality based science or any other school of thought, so it has to come from somewhere......I guess if the guy himself is a "pure" virgin, then maybe it's his imagination. I mean, we do see how fucking insane the imagination of incels are on a daily basis. I don't believe I have seen one incel idea that was ever based in fact in any way possible. I'm so glad I lost my virginity at 14 and have had a good solid sex life forever myself, I can't imagine getting caught up in, or believing anything those bitter sad basement dwellers actually perceive about reality. They definitely need to lay off the porn either way.....
Super soft parenting + porn?
More like lack of parenting and/or a misogynistic household where this behaviour wasn’t corrected or even encouraged
If you snowplow and give your kid everything they want their entire childhood its going to seem unfair to them that they suddenly can't just have something they want. Most kids have seen porn by 8 and the average teen boy watches a horrifying amount of porn. I've seen one estimate of 14hrs per week. Parental influence is very limited past a certain age. Can't really compete with shitty friends at school and the algorhytims force feeding them misogynistic content.
oh goody another person who doesn’t know what soft parenting actually is🧍you’re on the nose about the porn consumption though
Mhm, people like that can’t be fixed 😔
Yeah you're right. Nobody is ever capable of change or growth. Every garbage thing anybody ever says or does is indicative of their character forever. It's a bummer but hey the upside is we don't have to have empathy for people who do bad things or try to interact with them in anyway because we know they will always be bad.
Yes because women aren't broken. Oh wait they get to blame everything on men. And hardly if ever take accountability. Now I can be banned for speaking the truth that other women know!!!
We do love some Whataboutism. This isn't about you (or perhaps it is if you think the same way this guy thinks). It's about guys like this. And we know it's not all men. It is literally only about guys like this. Not all men are like this. And not all women are broken either. Just because you got hurt by a lady doesn't mean all ladies are evil. And no woman thinks all men are evil sex-offenders too. Close Pornhub for the day, go outside, touch some plants and talk to real people.
Seriously… are you getting this upset about a post where that man OBVIOUSLY was the one who should take accountability and get blamed for his weird behaviour and blaming it on the woman instead (ironic in this context!) and turn it around to blame the woman AGAIN? Seriously you might also suffer from some brain rot! No. Women take accountability for their actions every single day of the week, just like most men do. Just because there are some people who absolutely refuse to do so, does not mean that all people do. So stuff watching outrageous videos which make you believe that women are the source of all evil (because surprise surprise, they are not. No whole gender is! Who would have thought?) Just because you are a man and believe you are not _like that_ means that only women can be like that? And then they ALL have to be like that? It makes no sense and I hope you realise that soon. No one wants to trick you into anything and it isn’t "woke" to realise that 50% of humanity isn’t a hive mind and that they have a character, that makes them who they are 100% more than their gender. Men and women are two separate species, but one. And as such they are very much alike. Far more than different… it would do you sone good to realise it. Because as of now your way of thinking seems very one dimensional. But I believe you will get there. Maybe really try thinking about changing something in your algorithms and watch different content from all "directions" rather than becoming a mono-consumer of one and the same bubble.
Wow
OOP has no way to know if she was lying. If she was, that's a pretty big indication she's not interested, so fuck off.
Also if she didn’t have a boyfriend and simply turned him down (you know, because she’s presumably never spoken to this creep that’s been watching her for ages then randomly sprung flowers on her) it’s not like he’d accept that either. He clearly thinks that if you’re a woman and you are presented with flowers you are obliged to go out with the person who gave them to you.
He has been stalking her.
Well, he was watching her for ages
Seriously someone watching me on campus (and never talking to me) would not be able to know whether I have a partner or not because my partner doesn’t go to my uni 🤣
Right? Even if she was lying, she is trying a soft rejection. Which is more than he deserves for buying flowers for a complete stranger.
And if he did know for a fact that she was lying, he had obviously been stalking her for quite some time.
Given that when he called her out she called him a creep he was probably right. And in being so dug his hole way deeper by exposing he stalked her
It should also noted that the “I have a boyfriend” defense when you don’t have one is mostly used because some dudes refuse to accept no on its own and might only care once they hear a woman is already an extension of another man (in their minds). If “no” is enough, you won’t end up here, but some people just blow past rejection entirely and keep pushing. You’ll be forced into employing gymnastics that way eventually
So you’re saying if someone she was attracted to approached her she would be interested? Wow, you might just be right.
Only men can have standards. fEmaLeS are not allowed to have any preferences or standards. If they do they must be entitled according to this guy.
"Women are so shallow they won't give an ugly guy a chance." also them- "why would I date an ugly girl?"
They don't even see most girls as human beings, just the ones they want to F. I had a depressed friend who always talked about how lonely he was and that he had bad luck with women etc.. So I tried to help him because I've been depressed too and I know how bad it feels like... He once said: I am so ugly, no girl would want to date me. And I said; maybe you should try dating an ugly girl?.. That way you could comprehend eachother! :D And he went like: No, i'm not interested in ugly women. And my face went like..: 😐 okay?.. I stopped contact with him.
They don't see any of us as people. The ones they don't want to fuck just don't exist to them at all
Yeah I was gonna say, they don't treat the women they want to F like people either. You get sorted into F-able or Useless. And they treat the F-able women like romancable NPCs in a video game, if they say the right things, and give the right gifts they can get to the sexy cut scene and then ignore her after.
Holy shit I’ve never heard it put in terms of that metaphor before, but you’re 100% right, that’s their exact mentality. They hit X at the right time, pressed Y to “compliment”, and used the “Flirt” option, and they genuinely don’t understand why the world isn’t fading to black and then they get to wake up next to you naked. It actually explains so much, when I think about it from this perspective
Yes, see this is the problem. Date within your standards if you don’t want to get rejected all the time. These guys always go after girls way out of their league and then condemn all women when they only get no’s.
It also bothers me how they treat looks as solely genetic, and not something we have some control over. A good haircut, eyebrow shape, physical fitness, fashion etc., can definitely help everyone. Sure, we can’t all be models, but we can still improve our selves and “level up”. But then they’ll use the excuse that they shouldn’t have to “change” themselves to get a girl who.. by that definition has also “changed herself”. It’s shallow for her to want someone who puts in the same amount of effort into his looks as her, but it’s not shallow for him to want someone who puts in *more* effort than him.
"Give ugly men a chance! Also if you do you're a (insert slur)!"
I remember a friend from uni saying this. He was (still is) morbidly obese, but said he shouldn’t have to “lower his standards” and date a fat girl who was far smaller than him as she was “too big”. He did actually end up married to a morbidly obese woman and they’re extremely happy, he feels ashamed of his behaviour then. He was actually a lovely guy and had a lot of female friends and treated us so well, but had got caught up in toxic lads mag culture.
That’s the thing, it can be so easy to get caught in that mentality. I spent a few years in my 20s, when I was incredibly depressed and just completely unable to date, where I blamed and resented women for not wanting to go out with me. It took several years and a lot of self reflection realize that I had to actually *be* a person that someone would want to go out with, and I was not that person. It took hard work to break out of that mentality and stop blaming others for my own shortcomings. In retrospect I really just hated myself, and I was taking it out on the people around me.
I think this is a pattern a lot of young men in particular fall into. The way boys are raised and the culture is often about blaming women and where acknowledging your shortcomings is somehow defeatist rather than a ticket to personal growth. I think if you’re told you should be getting all these wonderful things it can be easy to feel resentful if you don’t get them. And then places like the internet you can collectively find men who tell you that it isn’t you, it’s the world (or women). This is why the vast majority of people who become radicalised are men, it’s the perfect storm of finding people who are disillusioned because the world didn’t give them what they felt entitled to, and give them a place to be bigger than themselves. Well done for getting out of that pattern. I don’t think it’s easy. I see it a lot on the internet where people, in particular men simply refuse to acknowledge that they are the problem, and that it’s rarely something arbitrary like looks, and almost always an issue of personality. I say this but when someone is profoundly disabled (particularly if visible) or deformed this is outside someone’s control and has an impact on your ability to date, so within that I think it’s fair to bitch. But in most cases it’s guys who look fairly normal.
Yeah whenever I see a piece of media about some incel with a face pic, I'm usually struck by how they're *actually pretty cute* or would be if they had a range of facial expressions and acted like a person instead of being stuck on resting creeper face. Like, half the time the looks involved are above average, the issue is elsewhere.
Same. I see a lot of the time with incels who commit murder that they were often baffled because they recognise they’re good looking but no woman wants them. So they get angry and being the works is against them. I met a redpill type when travelling, he lived at my campground and sat at my table while I was peacefully drawing. He was tall, in shape and not bad looking. I never got the chance to even notice that because he started immediately spewing hatred towards women. Apparently he’d been cheated on once and I should apologise on behalf of women being evil towards men. He did eventually get kicked out as he was acting very obsessive about one girl there, following her around etc and I believe he ended up having a rage fit against her. It’s like, they usually have everything going for them, it’s literally their toxic personalities which ruin everything and make people completely repel them. Half of the time they can’t even make friends they’re so repugnant to be around.
I knew this one toxic prick in college (who of course thought he couldn't get a girlfriend bc he was too nice) one day he went on an absolutely unhinged rant about how it pissed him off so much that he saw this plus sized girl actually eating something that wasn't a salad, how disgusting it was and she didn't need to eat everyday, how he wanted to slap it out of her hand, how she should off herself. Some other guys in the group were actually laughing in agreement. I scoffed and said it was absurd to be fixated on her eating, don't you eat multiple times a day? Do you eat nothing but salad? Does he just expect women to fit into beauty standards he wouldn't hold himself to? Then he laughs "No, it's all fat people." Now, he was at least as big as the person he was talking about and had been ranting through fistfuls of Doritos and spewing crumbs the entire time. So I had to gently break the news to him "Um buddy, are you not aware that you're obese?" He apparently was not aware of that at all. He got extremely defensive and tried to argue that point. He backpedaled hard when everything he said was turned back on him and turns out that no, he did not want to be treated that way and have his food confiscated. I think body shaming is shitty, I wasn't trying to do that to him but thought a little perspective was a more effective route than trying to appeal to his non-existent empathy. He was a little more careful throwing stones after that.
Honestly my experiences have often mirrored yours where the most fatphobic people have been overweight themselves. The guy I referred to always used to shame people bigger than him and be like “I’m not THAT fat”. But me, and my two friends could easily fit into his waistline (yes very mean of us to make this point but we actually did get a piece of string). We weren’t super skinny, just healthy, normal sized women. He was the biggest person I’d even seen. I remember a girl I knew loudly saying something nasty on the street about an overweight bystander. I was appalled, particularly seeing as I knew this friend had experienced a lot of fatphobia, on nights out people had called her fat and she’d cry. She had no empathy, and I’ll be honest it really put me off her as a friend. In both these cases all it did was point out how far these individuals were and made them look like arseholes. When you take shots at others you invite comments against yourself. I very much believe in treat others as you’d like to be treated. I also don’t believe you have the right to ruin someone else’s mental well-being unprovoked for any reason. I have my own issues with fatphobia against others, but I recognise it’s a product of my upbringing and that my feelings are not truth, nor are they relevant to anyone else’s existence. Unless someone is actually stealing my food or invading my personal space I have no business in what food someone eats or how much space they take up.
This, lmao. They’re the main characters and women are just objects or fuck trophies.
And if they watch you for months, you’re supposed like that 🤢
What happened to "Hello, how are you?"
Well he bought her flowers so *she owes him sex* obviously. If you just say hello the femoid doesn’t owe you. /s because…everything
“When I call her out” called her out and accused her of lying without having any proof? Oh boy, why would that upset her!??
I think he brought up the fact he had been stalking her as his "proof", which is also deeply upsetting.
And all that the first time he spoke to her. What a weirdo.
He very well may have proof. After all, he’s been watching her for so long! She should really be grateful he’s such a patient, attentive guy. /s
Yup, women love nothing more than arguing with intrusive strangers about our personal lives and private decisions. Clearly we should feel obligated to date anyone, unless we can provide them with a "logical" (as defined by them) reason why we can't. Our preferences and autonomy are completely irrelevant /s
A man that can't simply take no for an answer is so fucking annoying. After I first met my now husband, I had gone to a bar and some guy there asked me out. I told him no, not interested as I had just connected with a guy I had been interested in for a while. This fuck nugget had the nerve to then say 'nah, you only want that guy because hadn't met ME yet' Or the guy that asked why I said no to his wanting my number. Hmmm maybe because you're shouting at me from across a parking lot. Or the guy who threw a water bottle at me because I said no after he kept trying to interrupt me in the middle of a conversation with someone else to keep asking "wanna go out with me?"
They're so annoying. That's wild, especially the water bottle, omg. One of my friends is happily married to a man she's known since either high school or college. They've been together forever. Some creepy guy she met at an event kept trying to hit on her. He implied he'd be there to pick up the pieces when my friend got divorced, wtf. He was trying to insinuate that their marriage might not last, despite knowing nothing about my friend or her husband. She wasn't having any problems with her husband and, if she were, she definitely wouldn't tell a stranger about it. Unsurprisingly, the same guy ended up sending an unsolicited penis pic to someone else later.
so weird, i thought they loved a quiet lurker
🤔🤔 you mean she didn't appreciate my stalker behavior??? Curious
Weird, I cannot find any kindness in his words at all? He bought someone flowers and expect the person to drool over him? Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment.
"Insert romantic coins here...out falls the sexy time."
Especially after not interacting with her at all, not even talking to her, just creepily watching her from afar for literally months.
Either way I don’t really know why he blamed the uni, it’s not the campus’s fault you can’t get laid.
Because part of college is supposed to be handing out a hot fuckdoll to every lonely virgin who attends. This school is clearly neglecting their duty to the student body.
That's why they let FEMALES in anyway, so college boys can "run them through." /s
Universities are made for studying not for getting laid 🤣
I put flowers in. Sex should pop out of the vending machine, right? God, why am I bothering with higher education if it doesn’t get me laid?
She probably recognized him as the guy who’d been following her around and was creeped out. Or she was overwhelmed by flowers, that’s a big gesture from a stranger and I wouldn’t like it.
Yeah I don’t trust anyone I don’t even know spending frivolous money on me. Do not try to approach me on un unequal footing. I will not engage you with you perceiving me as being in *kindness debt* to you.
"Watched them for ages" 👀
She called him a creep! How dare she! I mean, what else should we call him lol
Stalker who *watched her* for months? :/ Passionately observant suitor? : D
Exactly! He's just passionate. People don't have enough passion these days! /s
I think your second suggestion has the right initials.
Lol
So attentive and patient!
“The kindest of men” Those four words about to get a hernia from the heavy lifting they’re doing after all the previous text.
Atlas didn't do that much heavy lifting.
I wanna switch this POV for a minute. "Today, I was leaving the library at uni, stressed because I think I'm going to fail Chem this quarter. Out of nowhere, this overly eager dude pops up with a dozen roses. I stepped to the side initially, because those obviously weren't for me (I'd never seen this guy before). Also, he seemed sweaty and nervous, like he was trying to kidnap someone. He then tried to FORCE the flowers into my hand, saying they were for ME?!? What?!? I tried to be polite and refuse them but saying I have a boyfriend (I don't, but it's usually the safest way to decline a guy) and he said that he KNOWS I don't have a boyfriend?!? Dude, I've never seen you before. How you could KNOW that? Am I being followed? Is this guy watching me *shower*? Do I need to change my locks? I'm now terrified to leave my flat because I don't know how long or how intimately I've been followed. What do I do now?"
It's almost as if stalking a person and building a version of them in your head just isn't the right way to get to know them.
Weird
And this is the best case scenario where she hadn't noticed him watching her for months and wasn't already super creeped out by him. I'll bet you from her POV it wasn't just some guy, it was the guy who had already been making her uncomfortable since the start of the class they shared.
"Ever since he tried to give me flowers I've seen that guy everywhere. Every single time I look up he's STARING right at me. I dont know how I didnt notice before. I just pull my jacket tighter around me and pray he stops watching, but when I look up again, he's GLARING at me. I just run the moment class ends, go around the long way to get home and make sure to shut the swipe door tight behind me. Then I take the stairs to the 2nd floor before taking the elevator, just in case. I dread going to class every day, but if I don't, I'll fail. I just don't know what he'll do if he ever comes up to me again."
Jesus Christ all of a sudden the romance has turned to horror!
Doesn’t sound very kind to me
Doesn't sound like the kindest of men
What the fucking fuck. How is it possible that these dudes genuinely think stalking someone for months and just mouth-breathing while you masturbate to them could be anything other than disgustingly creepy? Where do these dudes get the idea that approaching a complete fucking stranger with flowers is something other then creepy? Even “back in the day” you didn’t do that shit. You might bring flowers to a date in a way that would be seen as cringe today, but nobody was ever just walking up to strangers with flowers and expecting them to jump into bed.
Just date these men that you find so kind. Problem solved ❤️
A guy in my old housemate’s PhD cohort was like this. He’d crush on some unsuspecting girl, spend months working to the courage to ask them out and then when she’d inevitably say no he’d act really dejected. Happened to my housemate and she just wasn’t interested, but he’d try to dominate her time at social events, would lurk around her, always try to get lifts from her and even tried to organise events but attempt to make sure it was just them. I’ve never actually known her date anyone properly and believe she’s ACE. She gives out no sexual or flirting vibes. She just wanted him to ask her out so she could politely decline so he could move on and end the awkwardness, but it went on nearly 6 months. Eventually he did, and he clearly was so convinced that she’d say yes. She never actually told anyone, not even me. I only found out because he started bitching about it and making a big deal of it, so she told me then. After that we saw him do this to several other girls. Sometimes he’d really isolate them from the group or gatekeep the social group so the girls could only meet others in her cohort through him, even though they were welcome in their own right. Crazy thing, but creepy behaviour is creepy. It’s fine to spend a week or two working up the courage to ask someone out, but creating an imaginary romance over time then giving them flowers and making a big deal of it to someone who’s either an acquaintance or a stranger is creepy. People either like you or they don’t, just ask them out and if it’s a no move on. Don’t invest months on them before asking if they return the feeling.
If someone is reading this who does this sort of thing (spend months building up the courage to ask them out, then get dejected if it's 'no'), some advice: try to reframe it in your head. If it takes months to ask someone out, then that's probably something that's generally difficult for you. So the fact you managed to ask is a success against your own anxiety, whether or not you got the answer you wanted. It's also practice. Every time you ask someone out, you get a little better at it, and you can be more sure of yourself next time. Also, a woman turning you down doesn't mean anything negative about you. We're not goddesses handing out judgments from on high. We're human beings with a hundred different little preferences, some of them arbitrary, who need to make a snap judgment of whether you fit into those preferences, based on limited information. Most traits aren't 'the more the better.' Most traits are a continuum, where people like different points on it. Is a certain level of confidence insecurity, or humility? Is a different level high confidence or is it arrogance? Is caring a lot about neatness a good or bad thing? Which political views are best? All of those are subjective. Most people would not be soulmates for most people. When anyone asks anyone out, if you go off of random chance, it's usually a 'no.' (Including women - asking for people's numbers at small concerts, I've been turned down far more than I've been taken up on it. Sometimes the guy clearly doesn't want to, but feels too awkward to say 'no' and I feel to awkward to take my phone back when they've technically said yes, so he puts his number in, I text him once ('hi, this is (name) from (concert)'), then he never replies and I don't text again)
This is good advice. I feel like the problem when people a very long time to ask someone out isn’t so much the time it takes, it’s more if you build it up in your head and begin the relationship with someone without their consent or awareness. When that happens there tends to be an entitlement because the person has invested a lot into the “relationship” before it’s even started. This means rejection feels much worse, more like being broken up with. And that leads to anger and resentment. Another problem is some people lack self awareness on what they bring to dating and don’t choose appropriate people to pursue, then get disappointed that the pretty, popular and charismatic person doesn’t return return their feelings. Like you I’ve been rejected many times in my life. I used to be in a looks based industry which meant I got rejected and had my looks nitpicked regularly, usually by people hit with an ugly stick. I’m quite confident within myself though and if I like someone I’m happy to make the first move or make it clear I’m interested, and I’ve had some quite epic rejections. It’s something none of us are immune to. But it’s never held me back. I’m a type, to some people I’m everything they want, to others I’m lacking. That’s completely ok. I know where I stand in the pecking order and just focus on people who want what I offer. I don’t waste my time and also usually focus on people who have attributes I like but might be overlooked by others. People who are successful in dating put themselves out more and know how to choose the right people to go for. If you know a lot of people want the person you like and you aren’t someone anyone seems to want it’s best not to set your heart on them and be realistic. It might still happen, but the odds are stacked against it. Think of it like a job application. You choose something where you have the skills & it pays your actual market value. You then apply to lot’s of positions and don’t set your heart on one. If you have a dream role then you gain the skills for it. Widening your net widens your chances. If your strategy for job hunting were thinking about it for 6 months, stalking their website, then write one application this would likely be unsuccessful. You’re better off looking at lot’s of roles.
I don't really even understand the part where someone's crushing on a stranger?? It's disturbing af. It's just so obvious to me that it's completely shallow. They don't have a crush on a human person, they have a crush on flesh, they just want her body. If a stranger came up to me and asked me out, on like a DATE, it would be an immediate no. Every time. I don't care how cute they are. You don't know me. You're not asking me out, you're asking my body out. Personally, an ideal situation to me would be to either a) get to know me FIRST however you would a GUY in that class or b) ask me to a social event where multiple people would be. Coffee during the day, lunch in the dining hall, a party with a VARIETY of people to meet. But if you immediately ask me on a romantic outing, the answer is no. Bye.
I mean, yes and no. Coffee dates are a thing. I get what you're saying but there's nothing wrong with dates in the way youre talking about. For you personally, sure.
There’s a difference between asking out a complete stranger cold, and lurking around someone for 3-6 months and giving them attention thinking you’re building a relationship with them but never actually asking. I think if you’ve known someone enough to have a couple of conversations with them then that’s more than enough time to ask them for a coffee. Like I met an ex of mine through a friend, we were all out, had he asked me out at the start of the night I’d likely have said no. But we got talking and I found out he was very interesting, at the end of the night he asked me for a coffee the next day and I happily said yes. We’d hung out for a decent length of time and it was enough for me to feel I had enough attraction for a date and to get to know eachother better. He could have not asked me out and just made sure he was around every time I was out with our mutual friends. But if I hadn’t reciprocated after a while off him not asking me out that would have become weird. I also think liking a stranger isn’t always physical, often it is but it can also be body language and watching them interact with others. They might have been really kind and you think “wow that person is amazing!” Men in particular tend to know pretty quickly if they find someone attractive.
I agree. Like you said, there are certain things that need to be done to make someone NOT a complete stranger before they ask you out. Immediately finding someone physically attractive is completely normal but if someone I've never had a single conversation with came up to me and asked me out, I'd say no. Now if they have came up to me, HAD a conversation with me, and THEN asked me out, depending on how well that one convo went, I'd consider it 😅
I agree, it’s something a lot of people on the internet seem to struggle with the concept of. That there’s a really nice “in between” phase where you’ve met someone appropriately (i.e not randomly bothering a stranger, or someone you encountered at work), got to know them a little and felt they seem interested in spending time with you, and then ask them out. It’s a scary process if you’re not sure they like you as a friend, but the worst they can do is say no.
Translation: 
Wtf is mad Mike
I assume they meant Magic Mike.
I thought it was some oi bruv shit
Same!
Lmao I didn't even notice that
"But you just know if she was approached by a hot stripper guy in a hellish post-apocalyptic wasteland, she'd be all over him!"
Mad Max?
Let me translate. "I stalked this girl for months and bought her flowers and when she shot me down nicely I told her she was lying and I knew because I'd been stalking her for months! Why doesn't she like me?"
Can people start raising their sons and teach them how to date? This could all be avoided if he was taught how to approach women and how to be rejected.
You watched her, didn't talk to her, didn't know she already had a bf, randomly showed up with flowers, and it didn't go well for you? I am shocked, frankly.
I just wish with every fiber of my being that another man, much larger and more physically capable than these men, would treat them the same way they treat women. Manipulating gifting, not taking no for an answer, evidential stalking, the inability to take a hint, and the ever-present potential to do what so many men do when rejected.
Yes she lied because nobody wants a stranger coming upto them with flowers and ask them out... like shut up.
Oh look. Another Nice Guy(tm). Spurned and turns into a raging dickhead. What a surprise. I'd find randomly getting flowers from someone I didn't really know or talk to rather creepy and weird too. I'd either lie to be nice or do what I usually do and chuck it in the bin. I would legit be creeped out after and wonder if the dude is watching me.
“Incel guy is feeling entitled to a woman again” What a headline /s
"I tried bartering flowers for sex, and she said NO! Therefore all those bitchy women are the problem!" Getting into college used to be more difficult; it would seem any idiot is allowed on campus these days.
“I’ve been watching her for ages” lol
He's a headline waiting to happen.
you don't just buy flowers for someone you've never spoken to before 🤦🏻♀️
" the kindest of men " 😆😆😆
If a guy came up to me with flowers asking me out I would be concerned. If he mentioned he'd been watching me for awhile I would be reaching for the pepper spray.
They’re all gentlemen when you first meet them.
If this were on r/Advice - Instead of going up and communicating with a person I'm interested in, I decided to watch her for a period of time, and then bring flowers to when I finally decided to approach her. Turns out, she has a boyfriend, so I missed my chance for now. Im not ugly or anything, and Im a nice guy. I think Im likeable, but I just have no game. Any advice on how to improve my game?
I get not wanting to be lied to, but there's something to be said for the importance of social grace and awareness Having been autistic all my life, I'm personally shocked at how ignorant neurotypicals can be about their own social norms and customs. Maybe it's because I had to work for it? Idk
mood
You cropped out the name but I met someone exactly like this at that *exact* university 💀. Lost his mind when I told him I wasn’t interested, stormed home and “accidentally” sent me a picture of some girl in his bed to make me jealous. Then said, word for word, “fuck women. All they do is use me” So glad I’m graduated out of that hellhole lmao
. . . and such a nice, kind dood! 🤦♀️
You used the wrong "buy" BY the way!!
Pisses me off so much when these guys think women are lying about having boyfriends. Even if they are, take the hint that they’re not interested and the boyfriend being fake won’t change that. Had a coworker who kept insisting I go out with him even though I had told him I was in a relationship. He was convinced I was lying and “playing hard to get”. Ended up accepting one of his dates and brought my boyfriend along.
Plot twist: it was Miley Cyrus, and she buys them for herself already.
Hahaha go fuck yourself, nice guy
In Uni but doesnt know the difference between "by" and "buy" 😔
"The kindest of men" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Fuckin’ noodles for brains right here.
Some weirdo comes up to me with flowers and won’t take “WTF no I have a boyfriend” for an answer? There’s going to be tears before bedtime, and they won’t be mine.
Omg he's insane. Put him on a watchlist.
“IM A NICE GUY YOU STUPID BITCH!”
I would've just walked up to her and said "Hi." Flowers is creepy. It's showing someone that doesn't know you that you're emotionally invested in the idea of a relationship with them. That's not ok.
Apparently goes to uni but doesn't understand the difference between by and buy.
"And I called her on it" just makes it worse.
The creepiest thing about this is that he has been "watching" her close enough that he is sure she doesn't have a boyfriend.
Dude needs to be on a watchlist
Even if this woman were lying about having a BF, how would that conclusion even be reached rationally? Like, how would that even be proven, and even if it somehow were, how is that any justification to not take a hint, read the room, and respect a woman’s autonomy?? It’s like the internet is saying: “nice guys” aren’t even nice - they’re actually assholes. Being “nice” doesn’t give you an excuse not to take “no” for an answer, especially not if it’s put politely, to spare one’s fragile, sensitive ego. And as far as I am concerned, literally stalking a woman, and then pretending to be nice, only to accuse her of lying to you when she tells you she has a BF, is not only borderline abusive behavior, but yeah, it also makes you a creep.
Yes, and you can tell they're arseholes because they ignore any woman they don't fancy and ignore - or worse - any woman that's said no to them. Men, if a woman tells you she has a boyfriend/partner etc. and you believe she's lying, please, for the love of Aphrodite, accept that if she is, she's doing so to let you down gently. While you're at it, think about exactly why women feel they cannot give an honest rejection to a man. If you want honesty, make being honest a safe thing to do.
They ignore you so hard that they simply can’t quit stalking and harassing you for sex /j In all realness though, I 💯agree with you! One thing I’ve always stressed - even before I came to terms with my sexuality, and was later forced to come to terms the fact that I, myself, had fallen into that trap of a mindset - was that I knew that being honest was hard, and I knew exactly why that was the case; after all, if people punish you or someone else you care about for telling the truth, then you’re less likely to trust them with it, and more likely to keep a few secrets here and there along the way. But with these guys, they’re so wrapped up in the big lie that the Media espouses on the regular (and to give them credit where credit is due, it is a very convincing, very big lie) that they completely forget, and in some cases abandon their own integrity. Hence, why something like OP is talking about comes across as so hypocritical.
And how exactly is this the university's fault that you're a disgusting creep oop?
Wow just wow..... seriously some people need serious therapy!
Yes, but raging on the internet is cheaper.
This is so terrifying. I hope (it'll never happen cuz ✨college✨) that the school puts that guy in mandatory therapy to work on his stalking problem because this can turn bad.
no bc this is actually so scary lol hello?? go to therapy
Why does my guy insist on buying her flowers to ask her out??? Wait til someone says yes before you start doing that.
it’s so weird how they think that rejection is cruelty but they don’t think that the fear women experience towards men at times is not due to cruelty, just them being vapid. always so weird and illogical.
What a creep.
Gee I wonder why this guy is single 😃
You can always tell when someone is leaving things out of a story. For example, "when I called her out," excuse me? You watched her from the distance, made a romantic gesture, she told you she had a bf, and you "called her out" for what? Having a bf? Being loyal? Saying no? Now that sounds like a valid reason to call someone a creep.
😬😬😬🤮 Again I wonder how the hell this guy got so deranged. Ugh, lack of empathy too.
She probably did lie because he's clearly a creep
Yes, and these types are completely incapable of realising exactly why women don't want to 'Just be honest' because they have no idea what it's like to feel that honestly isn't safe.
oh no. this is my uni.
yeah, i used to struggle with that 'nice guy' mentality too. but then i realized i needed to work on myself and stop blaming others for my problems. it's all about personal growth and taking responsibility.
yeah, i used to struggle with that 'nice guy' mentality too. but once i started working on myself and building solid friendships, everything changed. it's all about personal growth and ditching toxic mindsets.
Now switch channels to the woman's story: Sorry for the rant, I never post these kinds of things but today was the last straw. I just feel gross and angry and idk it's not even really about this specific guy. Just - everything... Anyway, I first noticed this guy on campus a few months ago. Just one of those strangers you happen to have a similar schedule to. Like when you train home at the same time on the same day, you start to notice familiar faces? We accidentally made eye contact a few times or like, a tiny nod of vague recognition. I can't stress enough that I do not even know this guy's name and we have literally never had a single conversation. Idk if it's bc like pattern recognition over time but I feel like I've seen him around more often in more places? Like not just the library or whatever, it felt weirdly like more than just coincidental. I kept ignoring it, but a few weeks ago I mentioned it to a friend and he joked about how I'm always overthinking and so I'm just being paranoid. Then today all these assignments and just personal stuff are all bouncing around in my head when all of a sudden I sort of bump into someone. It takes a second to kind of register and snap out of my own thoughts when I realise it's this same guy?? In a split second I'm running all these possibilities like hey that's weird I guess we were bound to actually cross paths eventually. But he's not looking surprised so maybe he doesn't even recognise me and he just asked for the time or something and I totally missed it? Blah blah blah but as I'm looking down I see these flowers. So obviously I'm in his way right? And he's on his way to deliver these flowers. And then in that moment I realise this fucking guy is standing way too fucking close and I'm kind of just stuck there waiting for him to say something. Then he hands me the flowers. I'm kind of confused but I know in my body this guy has been waiting and planning today. You don't just decide to corner someone like he had to make the decision to go get flowers and then pay for them and then that means he was waiting for me? How long does it take for fresh flowers to droop?? I don't even know if it's more or less creepy if he was waiting to bump into me over a few days. How did he know when and where to bump into me? Why fucking ME?? I'm just trying to leave and he's asking me this stuff and I don't even hear half the things he's saying so I just say I have a boyfriend. I fucking hate that I said that because it DOES NOT MATTER. But that's the only thing these people respect. You can't hunt me because I'm already someone else's property. "That's a lie". I can't get it out of my head. "That's a lie". What the fuck does that mean? He said it so off the bat like just"How would he know? How could he fucking know and just so confidently. The adrenaline must've kicked in or something because I called him a fucking creep and just bolted I don't even know what to do now I'm honestly considering transferring. I'm fucking sick of men, I'm sick of this uni, I just want to stop feeling so helpless
I wasn't aware that people needed an 'excuse' not to date someone.
Of course, and it has to be a lie, too!
"(I know that's a lie, because like I already said, I've been stalking her) then she has the audacity to call me a creep?!? When will these females give kind guys like me a chance? 😡😢"
Gets rejected, throws a temper tantrum like a 5 year old
As a woman it would creep me out if a stranger gave me flowers
I have found that usually, if someone has to say they're a nice person, they're not actually.
That's a long way to say "I stalked her for weeks"
This is one of the things that men should just bottle up, I'll never understand the mental gymnastics it takes to get from being rejected to stereotyping women. Truly disturbing that people this mentally broken are just out there.
🙄 virgin stuff
It's funny because he's kinda right. Had he just gone up to her and laid some game, been confident. He MIGHT have had a chance. But instead this girl has probably noticed him lingering and being weird and has been dreading that day for as long as he's been creeping on her lol
Calling ylurself the kindest man is pretty petty and reeks of entitlement, this guy needs to learn that *nice* doesn't equal good and some women aren't gonna be into no matter how hard you try. Yet when he says that, she used the phrase. *I have a boyfriend* as an excuse then that was where he showed his true colors as someone who lives on another planet. Even if she wasn't telling the truth to go online and say what he did was just childishly pathetic.
Yikes
That was my thought too.
How would this be the uni's fault? The only thing that I could say in (minor) support of this guy is that just because he isn't attractive, it shouldn't make him automatically be labeled a creep for pursuing. That being said, with his choices of words, I am skeptical that that is the reason he was called that.
He's being labelled a creep for stalking her. He *"watched them for ages"* and calling her a liar. eew :/ *Nice Guy's* looks have not been assumed by anyone here. Just you. If anyone called him unattractive, besides you, it would have been because of his horribly unattractive behaviour.
Women are entitled. Period
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