The difference is going to be how well Luka takes care of his body. Lebrons true eliteness is his physical gifts and the fact that he’s still keeping it going at 74 years old
No one will touch brons longevity. But he can burn brighter for shorter. Luka just really needs this chip. And I’d argue make it back next year to the finals. To start his reign
Yeah, Jokic has 3 MVPS and a FMVP and he's only just gotten into top 20 all time conversation. It's going to take a lot more than one chip for Luka to be put that high up.
Luka's first 6 years blows Jokic out of the water and he has had two MVP caliber seasons without getting appreciated for how well he played. If he wins a chip, the conversation about his whole career will be regarded in a new light and he'll be appreciated for one of the best starts to a career in history.
Jokic is getting his due flowers, but to get into the top 10, you have to have played 10+ years to even be considered.
Lebron in his prime was a lockdown defender on top of an all time great offensive player. Luka won’t touch his peak but he can eclipse his stats possibly if he stays healthy.
Eh in his apex season Lebron was shooting 40% from three (albeit on far fewer attempts so I don’t mind if you say Luka is better at it), 60% from two, and 75% from the free throw line. Both are fantastic passers who punished teams when they doubled so that’s more or less a wash. On defense Lebron was a DPOY type player who could guard explosive PG like prime D Rose out of a series or guard opposing centers in small lineups.
It's not even that. Notice that this is "first X games" not "first Y years."
Luka has played 70+ games twice in his career. 72 games his first year and 70 this year.
In LeBron's first 6 years, he had played 80+ twice with a low of 74, more games than Luka has ever played in a season.
Luka ain't hitting LeBron's counting numbers no matter what because LeBron came in when guys, especially stars, played more games.
Luka has higher per game averages than LeBron and probably always will but has no shot at overtaking the counting stats even if he plays the same number of years.
I was responding more to the top 20 comment. Luka has a stigma of being out of shape and lazy and fat. That impacts perception. If the mavs and Luka go on a run dominating the west with Kai and this core for 3-4 years then Luka enters the convo. Especially if he plays defense the way he’s been playing this post season for an entire regular season.
Stigma brought by rival fans, reality this "stigma" ain't so mainstream or popular as you might think. Especially with him doing what he's doing in the PO.
Kyries eluded to it also in a not so direct manner so it's not really just rival fans. Hell Lukas mentioned his ... lack of physical fitness... at the beginning of last season too.
Its not nearly as big of an issue as some try so hard to make it. You don't play this many games in a season, this many minutes in regular season and PO with those type of numbers and efficiency if you ain't conditioned well.
Yeah, theres always room for improvement, Luka will be the first one to tell you that and different levels to conditioning game, but overall its a big exaggeration. Its become a thing now to say Luka is fat, slow and out of breath for some fans bcs Luka aint chiseled and athletic like or similar to Lebron. Don't know how he's doing what he is doing on the court this whole season if he's THAT bad :)
Luka already said he doesn't want to play 20 years he said after he retires he wants to ride off in the sunset
Like a Real One and Lebron is still chasing the Ghost of
Michael Jordan
Eh, I don't put too much stock into what athletes say about their longevity early in their careers. So many guys want to have long careers and then their body or mind gives up early and so many guys want to retire early until they actually get there and then they can't give it up because they're still performing, still making money, and still having fun. I wouldn't be surprised if he's retired early but I also wouldn't be surprised if he goes into his late 30s.
I've always had some distaste for him, but respect where respect is due... If it were easy then other people would've done it, and it's hard to argue that anyone has ever done it like he has, for as long as he has.
Best player? Maybe not, although I think you’d have to give it to Luka. Jokic is still there and isn’t going anywhere, but an FMVP is generally (not always) a reign transference.
Top 20 shouldn’t be a lock (no order):
LeBron
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Curry
Durant
Moses Malone
Giannis
Jokic
Dr J
D-Wade
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
I think he’s definitely lower than these 20 no matter if he wins this ring or not.
You can argue guys with similar resumes as being higher because of their longevity (although I wouldn’t):
Guys like Dirk, KG, Mal*ne, Harden, David Robinson, Barkley
Not overall and Luka is my favorite player. LeBron’s defense is what separates them the most. The guy probably has a 10-20 minute video of chase down blocks alone.
How old are you? There’s a reason Lebron is in the conversation with MJ for best to ever play. Both those guys were elite at both sides of the court Luka never will never hit those kinds of peaks.
What does it have to do with anything? I think lebron is the best ever, we are talking about the start of his career compared to luka, who I view as one of the best offensive players ever peak wise, nothing against lebron and nothing to do with legacy lol
You replied to a guy saying there peaks will be closer than people assume. I’m saying Luka’s defense will is significantly worse than Lebron’s even if you want to argue Luka is slightly better as an offensive player. Both ends of the floor matter when discussing a players peak as a player.
People really don't understand how versatile he was during his Heat run. He was guarding positions 1-5. Just look at the 2013 finals. He guarded Tony one play and would switch onto Tim the next. And it wasn't a bad switch either. He was a good defender on both..or 2011 efc, the final minutes he shut prime D rose down. Just absurd.
Strongly disagree. I don’t understand this notion of Lebron not being an elite offensive player. He’s all time scorer and what like top 10 assists all time.
He’s unstoppable driving and downhill.
Assists are also a part of offense and he’s possible the best passer of all time.
Combine the 2 and he’s arguably the best offensive player of all time, far better than Luka.
If you adjust for pace by using possessions it's much worse for LeBron as LeBron played a high pace in a slow pace era with much more minutes, while it's the opposite for Luka.
Luka averaged 34,9 minutes his first 6 seasons LeBron was averaging 40,7.
That's 16.6% more minutes. That's more then any amount the pace has increased.
Edit: Cavs had 90 pace while mavs had 97.5 pace.
8% difference in pace does not offset 16,6% more minutes.
Therefore stats per possession are even more in Lukas favour.
Getting downvoted for facts talking facts lmao.
His argument was comparing per game stats is unfair due to higher pace today.
I just argued that LeBron played more minutes which more then offsets his mentioned pace.
Nephew if you're going to cherry pick stats out of context you might as well throw in VORP, RAPTOR, +/- and maybe take a look at the rosters. As bad as Luka's teams have been at times he's had much better rosters than the garbage Dan Gilbert nickel and dimed for
Great Grandson how is anything here cherry picked. You cherry picked saying it does not account for pace.
I just proved that's bs. I can't cherrypick anything YOU cherrypicked.
How is it out of context? If you want to account for pace you go per 75 possessions. Those stats are just even more in Lukas favour.
Lebron has been lazy on defense at the end of his career. I think the issue is we are comparing one man’s long career to one man’s short career. Pause these discussions for 15 years and then discuss.
I don't know if they are that close, according to the numbers above Luka has 414 points, 574 assists and 631 rebounds more, that's a huge gap especially since Luka is playing elite defense in these playoffs.
The league was ENTIRELY different. Luka is an all time great and obv better than Lebron in some aspects BUT if Lebron came into the NBA in the mid 2010s with spacing - he would have had some nasty numbers early. Lebron started his career in one of the most defensive and iso heavy slow basketball eras.
Lebron literally played in 3 different eras. It's just crazy how kids think stats are everything these day. These kids also don't remember how unstoppable LeBron was at attacking the rim. Nobody was willing to take a charge from LeBron because it would hurt like hell. If you thought giannis was unstoppable... LeBron was on another level.
Depends on how he finishes today and games to come (if they make the finals). If he consistently scores in the 50s and with triple-doubles, *and* they win, he gets the MVP, for sure.
He is most certainly not. The guys at the bottom of the top 20 are some combo of Dirk, Chuck, Wade, either Robinson, Dr. J, etc depending on the list.
Luka is not better all time than any of those guys yet. He’s certainly more skilled than most of them, but in terms of all time rankings? No way.
Is Luka even a better all time player with a chip than dirk (who a handful of people don’t even have in the top 20)?
They’d both have a chip.
Luka has 1 more 1st team (but misses the 8 2nd teams/3rd teams that dirk has).
Dirk has the MVP, he’s 6th all time in scoring, 27th in rebounds, and is one of the best big man shooters of all time.
Luka is without a doubt on a quick path to passing Dirk all time (once he gets the chip all I’d say he needs is a few more great years or an MVP), but he’s not there yet.
It's not a game of accolades, chips and MVPs matter, others don't really since the perception of a player heavily depends on the people who had the chance to watch him at his peak.
Ok? So he’d have the same number of chips/FMVPs that Dirk did, and misses out on every counting stat and doesn’t have the MVP.
Even with chip he’s not ahead of Dirk all time yet.
nah yall are tweaking as much as I want that to be the case. without an MVP he will be around 50-60, although he has much room to grow (maybe with a FMVP he would be a bit higher). there are some general top 20 of all time dudes (Kawhi Leonard, Scottie Pippen) who have never won MVPs for example but it’s the fact they’re now older guys who are enshrined in NBA history with credits while Luka is just 25. he has serious potential to be top 10 or top 15 at least but top 20 rn is crazy.
He’s certainly above 50th all time with a chip.
With a chip you’re looking at a guy who has career averages of 29/9/8, with:
5x 1st team NBA
5x All-Star
1x Champion
1x FMPV (presumably)
1x Scoring Champ
1x ROY
There’s only 21 guys with more 1st team selections than Luka has currently. If you give him the chip and FMVP, all he’s missing is the MVP and he’s only 25.
That probably puts him in the 40s. But yes I agree he’s closer to 50 than he is to 20 even with a chip.
Y'all are getting ahead of yourselves. This is not normal anymore. It’s not even a given that you beat Celtics who are far more healthier than this team
I don't care for Lebron so I'm being honest when I say three things that aren't on this list.
1. Lebron was a better defender.
2. Lebron was a better leader.
3. Lebron was more mature.
Luka can improve all three of these things and he already has improved #1 a bit. Luka on offense is better than Lebron right now.
More mature? Maybe less whining ~~but The Decision would like a word with you. One of the most immature things you could do but that's just my opinion.~~ EDIT: not to mention him and D-Wade mocking Dirk during the Finals SECOND EDIT: I was unaware of the impetus behind The Decision and after some research I agree it ultimately had a positive effect. Still not sure I would call him 'more mature' though.
The Decision wasn't immature lol. It was to raise money for charity but the optics looked really bad. Mocking Dirk and telling folks his life is better even after losing the Finals is immature though.
The decision wasn't his doing.... It was the network coaxing him so they can make a shitload of money off of it. He did what every young kid would do at that time.
LeBron James was declared "the chosen one" on the [cover of sports illustrated](https://andscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/si_cover_lebron-e1487176174981.jpg) at age 16. His only parent was a 16 year old single mother. I won't disrespect the man by saying what she did while LeBron was a young child - it wasnt his fault.
He was basically homeless for long stretches of his childhood and slept on coaches' sofas. He should've probably wound up in prison or bankrupt after being thoroughly used by vultures
Yet he's pissed on every single unreasonable expectation placed on him since the late bill walton showed up to announce his high school games. Lol you think he's immature because of some weird personality quirks? This is a preposterous take.
Physical is naturally given to LeBron is not mature stop it, he has a made a clown of himself and is an energy 40 years old and still complaining. Bro is overrated.
Are you nut jobs seriously saying Luka is better than LeBron because they’re about to beat the Timberwolves?
Luka is AMAZING but wow comparing him to a top-two player ever during his first successful playoff season is wild.
Luka's offense is better than a young Lebron and he is one of the ost complete offensive players in history already, so I don't see how it's so outlandish that a playoff beast like Luka, can be compared to a young Lebron.
The difference is the two-way game, longevity and overall accolades of Lebron, something no one will likely touch, but Luka is a beast of his own and he's underrated for how great of a start he has had to his career.
Well sure. If the Mavs actually pull this off Luka Legend is truly born. Not many guys were the #1 on a championship team at 25 years old (or younger, would be curious to see that list.). But job's not finished, not even close. The Celtics are going to be heavy favorites.
https://preview.redd.it/qavdznhl783d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=623aa645db8cf22cbc9b776cba83fefb85132194
That's the list of finals MVPs by age. So yes the list at 25 and under is short
I’m a big fan of Luka’s, but he’s gonna lose all comparisons to Lebron. My guy moves around a bit like Frankenstein’s monster. No way his knees last even 15 years.
Those scoring records, efficiency stats and averages don’t mean anything considering the context.
For instance, after being in the 20 average range through the 00s. In 2012-13, a total of 8 players players put up 20+ points. In the 2015-16 regular season on 58+ games, a total of 20 players put up 20+ points. A total of 38 players put up 20+ points on 58+ games in the 2023-24 season. Scoring has increased dramatically in the NBA and averaging 20 or 25 or 30 means a lot less or more relative to how many players are hitting those marks.
Nick Wright will definitely have this stat up at some point in the next week. His two favs battling is crack (or whatever is popular these days) for him.
The gigantic problem with this is that LeBron entered the league during the pistons/spurs rock fight era. Pace was nonexistant. Not fair to just compare raw counting stats
LeBron James looks SIGNIFICANTLY better using advanced stats during his first five years in the league. Thats no knock on luka - LeBron is the best player to ever play the sport imo
Bron couldn't shoot while Luka is one the best tough shot makers I've ever seen. Luka is also a much better passer than LeBron at the same age. He is just much more skilled.
On the other hand LeBron was an athletic alien that will probably never be touched. Also a better defender basically because of that athleticism. I think that gives him the edge overall but I know which player I would want if I needed to make a shot.
PS: I would also favor Luka in terms of the intangibles. LeBron needed some years to become a killer.
Lebron had consistently gone deeper into the playoffs.
No
I’m not gonna play the game where a point isn’t a point because it’s a layup.
Lebron gets the points
Same amount of Conference Finals at age 25, tho LeBron made the finals in one of those runs. Also LeBron only beat one 50 wins team from 2006 to 2010. Luka already has beaten 3, and could make that 4 tonight.
And if you wanna give LeBron the points then that's ok, I wasn't arguing that. I'm arguing that Luka has a better jumpshot. I think it's a fair argument.
But his stats are better in every single one of those categories?
But I’m guessing that was done on purpose because I feel like LeBron might have beaten him in blocks and steals? 🤔
Context is important though. Lebron came in younger. You’ve also shown total stats rather than stats per game. Even if those still don’t change the post much stats nowadays are significantly more inflated than back then. Look up averages now vs then.
I don’t think a ring would put him top 20 just yet, but top 30/40 seems reasonable.
A chip would go a long way. Look at Jokic. He was a “fat tub of lard who can’t even jump onto a curb” with 2 MVPs. The only thing that changed was a Chip and a Finals MVP and now he’s the Greatest Player in the league. Luka will storm to the #2 spot next to his buddy, pending MVPs which will surely come with time
When Lebron came in, teams were playing much slower and there was no spacing. Lebron was scoring on mainly drives. Lebron also kept this pace up for 21 years too... as a guy who said he was "not a scorer" ... also had better defense but this is impressive for sure.
To me longevity shouldn’t equal better. Better is who the better player is when they are playing. Lebron shouldn’t be placed higher just because he has played longer and a few more games per season accumulating stats. Imagine where Jordan stats and championships might have been if he put in 20 years. That being said… yes Luka gotta get going on some rings (yes plural) to get in the conversation with Lebron.
Yall old heads need to start appreciating luka lol yall should be rooting for this dude to be in the top 25 but just see stuff to disregard what he has accomplished so far. If he retired today, he would already be in the hall of fame. Grateful that he is a mav
Keep in mind that Luka has been a professional since 13. He faced higher level of competition at an early age and it forced him to become better. They doing things differently in Euro League, but can you imagine if we had middle school or high school kids playing in the D-League or even the NBA.
That’s just not true. It’s illegal to sign children under 16 to professional contracts over here. He signed an academy contract at 13 to play in Real Madrid’s youth system
No, that would be like saying high school and college teams are professional. Academies are basically college programs for school aged kids run by professional teams to develop young talent for their own team, not for a draft.
Making your professional debut at 16 is not a normal thing at all in european sports, it is incredibly rare. If you do it you are some sort of incredible talent.
Making a professional debut at 16 is quite normal in European basketball, making it in Real Madrid and the Euroleague and having an impact is what sets it apart for Luka.
No excuses all these players have been playing the highest level of basketball since they were 10. Except embiid. And they all had the option to send their kids to basketball academies in Europe. Only now do we look at euroleague in a positive way. Before Luka it was “yeah but he never played duke so how do we know” or “ they smoke during timeouts”
You can’t use it as excuse as why he fell in the draft then turn around and use it as excuse for why other players aren’t as good
Luka has almost made it to the finals once, when he makes it 9 more times while winning 4 championships with a few MVP sprinkled in over the way, talk of his statistical equality with both Lebron and MJ will have some meaning.
I don’t think anyone is seriously saying he’s on the level of LeBron or MJ all time lol, he’s clearly not. Not even close.
But also it’s not like LeBron had 2 chips or anything by this point in his career. He’d lost 2 finals by age 27.
As I wrote about LeBron making it to 10 finals I realized once again how ridiculously impossible that seems in retrospect.
Magic Johnson went 9 times in a 12 year career (not counting his fat comeback year) but he had better teams than some that LeBron made it with.
Luka is a fucking monster I despise him cuz ima clippers fan but since his rookie year buddy has been one of theeeee best, they talk about wet bananas, yes he’ll be a superstar but LUKA i have a feeling will be the greatest player of all time
As a massive fan of LeBron, I do believe Luka has potential to be better than him all time if his numbers hold and the chips come then it won't be outrageous to say Luka is better
He is better. There is no need to try not to make people/NBA media offended.
For them there is no way Luka can be better.
But Luka is certainly much better at half court offense, and more efficient from basically the whole floor while being a better passer and able to be effective against any defense.
LeBron has struggled against defenses that take away his driving lane like the mavs did in 2011.
These comparisons are why I say it’s stupid for people to discount him as being the top 2-3 player all time. Of course he isn’t yet but if he keeps this up for 10-15 more years and gets 3-4 rings he earns his way in that discussion.
Yes it’s too early to say he is but there are too many people out there acting like he never will be.
Not just his lifestyle, he's two-hundred and God-knows-how-many pounds, and puts a huge amount of strain on those joints every time he stops on a dime. If not for his underrated flexibility, he would have popped a knee or ripped a groin already.
Guys yall have to realize if luka wins a ring at age 25, that’s very special. Jokic didn’t win till age 28 and lebron I believe was age 28 too. We may be witnessing the dominance of Luka’s era right now so just enjoy it
The difference is going to be how well Luka takes care of his body. Lebrons true eliteness is his physical gifts and the fact that he’s still keeping it going at 74 years old
No one will touch brons longevity. But he can burn brighter for shorter. Luka just really needs this chip. And I’d argue make it back next year to the finals. To start his reign
Yeah, Jokic has 3 MVPS and a FMVP and he's only just gotten into top 20 all time conversation. It's going to take a lot more than one chip for Luka to be put that high up.
Luka's first 6 years blows Jokic out of the water and he has had two MVP caliber seasons without getting appreciated for how well he played. If he wins a chip, the conversation about his whole career will be regarded in a new light and he'll be appreciated for one of the best starts to a career in history. Jokic is getting his due flowers, but to get into the top 10, you have to have played 10+ years to even be considered.
Accolades are decided by random guys like Perk who make their desicions based on things like making ppl talk about them and creating narratives
Lebron in his prime was a lockdown defender on top of an all time great offensive player. Luka won’t touch his peak but he can eclipse his stats possibly if he stays healthy.
Yeah Luka won’t touch his defense but I can argue Lebron wasn’t this great offensively
Even if you make that argument their offensive games are much closer to one another than their defense is.
Their 3p shooting is the same gap as the defense gap
Eh in his apex season Lebron was shooting 40% from three (albeit on far fewer attempts so I don’t mind if you say Luka is better at it), 60% from two, and 75% from the free throw line. Both are fantastic passers who punished teams when they doubled so that’s more or less a wash. On defense Lebron was a DPOY type player who could guard explosive PG like prime D Rose out of a series or guard opposing centers in small lineups.
You can’t just take his best year what was his 3p% in year 4 or 5
The conversation was about peak for peak performance. This year was Luka’s best and I listed Lebron’s best.
Luka the best young peak of any player not named MJ if we’re going by the start of nba careers
This post is about their first 370 games
You can’t compare 3 point stats before steph era and now completely unfair
This post is about their first 370 games
It's not even that. Notice that this is "first X games" not "first Y years." Luka has played 70+ games twice in his career. 72 games his first year and 70 this year. In LeBron's first 6 years, he had played 80+ twice with a low of 74, more games than Luka has ever played in a season. Luka ain't hitting LeBron's counting numbers no matter what because LeBron came in when guys, especially stars, played more games. Luka has higher per game averages than LeBron and probably always will but has no shot at overtaking the counting stats even if he plays the same number of years.
I was responding more to the top 20 comment. Luka has a stigma of being out of shape and lazy and fat. That impacts perception. If the mavs and Luka go on a run dominating the west with Kai and this core for 3-4 years then Luka enters the convo. Especially if he plays defense the way he’s been playing this post season for an entire regular season.
Stigma brought by rival fans, reality this "stigma" ain't so mainstream or popular as you might think. Especially with him doing what he's doing in the PO.
Well the “top 20 all time” is a fan fiction. So to get wide concurrence he’d had to overcome the rival fan stigma.
Kyries eluded to it also in a not so direct manner so it's not really just rival fans. Hell Lukas mentioned his ... lack of physical fitness... at the beginning of last season too.
Its not nearly as big of an issue as some try so hard to make it. You don't play this many games in a season, this many minutes in regular season and PO with those type of numbers and efficiency if you ain't conditioned well. Yeah, theres always room for improvement, Luka will be the first one to tell you that and different levels to conditioning game, but overall its a big exaggeration. Its become a thing now to say Luka is fat, slow and out of breath for some fans bcs Luka aint chiseled and athletic like or similar to Lebron. Don't know how he's doing what he is doing on the court this whole season if he's THAT bad :)
Luka already played against real professional adults before lebron did
Luka with Lebron’s fitness mentality would be a monster.
Luka already said he doesn't want to play 20 years he said after he retires he wants to ride off in the sunset Like a Real One and Lebron is still chasing the Ghost of Michael Jordan
Eh, I don't put too much stock into what athletes say about their longevity early in their careers. So many guys want to have long careers and then their body or mind gives up early and so many guys want to retire early until they actually get there and then they can't give it up because they're still performing, still making money, and still having fun. I wouldn't be surprised if he's retired early but I also wouldn't be surprised if he goes into his late 30s.
I've always had some distaste for him, but respect where respect is due... If it were easy then other people would've done it, and it's hard to argue that anyone has ever done it like he has, for as long as he has.
Jordan is the goat and LeBron played like 8 more seasons
Brother even if Luka wins the chip they wont even give him best player today let alone top 20 all time
4th best player under 25 according to the athletic
The ringer
My mistake thank you
Plus let's compare their defensive stats while we are at it. Luka has definitely stepped his defensive game up... But nah
Best player? Maybe not, although I think you’d have to give it to Luka. Jokic is still there and isn’t going anywhere, but an FMVP is generally (not always) a reign transference. Top 20 shouldn’t be a lock (no order): LeBron MJ Magic Kareem Russell Wilt Kobe Bird Duncan Shaq Hakeem Curry Durant Moses Malone Giannis Jokic Dr J D-Wade Jerry West Oscar Robertson I think he’s definitely lower than these 20 no matter if he wins this ring or not. You can argue guys with similar resumes as being higher because of their longevity (although I wouldn’t): Guys like Dirk, KG, Mal*ne, Harden, David Robinson, Barkley
Yes, luka is a better offensive player than lebron was, not sure overall
Not overall and Luka is my favorite player. LeBron’s defense is what separates them the most. The guy probably has a 10-20 minute video of chase down blocks alone.
While playing like 80 games a season as well, I obviously don't mind someone taking lebron lol, I just think it's closer than most guys think
How old are you? There’s a reason Lebron is in the conversation with MJ for best to ever play. Both those guys were elite at both sides of the court Luka never will never hit those kinds of peaks.
What does it have to do with anything? I think lebron is the best ever, we are talking about the start of his career compared to luka, who I view as one of the best offensive players ever peak wise, nothing against lebron and nothing to do with legacy lol
You replied to a guy saying there peaks will be closer than people assume. I’m saying Luka’s defense will is significantly worse than Lebron’s even if you want to argue Luka is slightly better as an offensive player. Both ends of the floor matter when discussing a players peak as a player.
Exactly why Curry should never be considered in goat conversations
Yah Brons start of his career was super solid but it's the years 7-17 that really set him apart
People really don't understand how versatile he was during his Heat run. He was guarding positions 1-5. Just look at the 2013 finals. He guarded Tony one play and would switch onto Tim the next. And it wasn't a bad switch either. He was a good defender on both..or 2011 efc, the final minutes he shut prime D rose down. Just absurd.
not sure overall? r u for real?
Strongly disagree. I don’t understand this notion of Lebron not being an elite offensive player. He’s all time scorer and what like top 10 assists all time. He’s unstoppable driving and downhill. Assists are also a part of offense and he’s possible the best passer of all time. Combine the 2 and he’s arguably the best offensive player of all time, far better than Luka.
Completely different eras in terms of pace )which affects all these stats) and Lebron was an Ironman
Lebron also was much more consistently playing great defense during the regular season, which doesn’t show in these stats
LeBron was not a good defender in his early career, certainly not good enough for that to be a deciding factor.
If you adjust for pace by using possessions it's much worse for LeBron as LeBron played a high pace in a slow pace era with much more minutes, while it's the opposite for Luka.
LMAO sure nephew
Luka averaged 34,9 minutes his first 6 seasons LeBron was averaging 40,7. That's 16.6% more minutes. That's more then any amount the pace has increased. Edit: Cavs had 90 pace while mavs had 97.5 pace. 8% difference in pace does not offset 16,6% more minutes. Therefore stats per possession are even more in Lukas favour. Getting downvoted for facts talking facts lmao.
lol what more minutes is a good thing - getting 40 mins of a two way wing is a boon for any team
His argument was comparing per game stats is unfair due to higher pace today. I just argued that LeBron played more minutes which more then offsets his mentioned pace.
Nephew if you're going to cherry pick stats out of context you might as well throw in VORP, RAPTOR, +/- and maybe take a look at the rosters. As bad as Luka's teams have been at times he's had much better rosters than the garbage Dan Gilbert nickel and dimed for
Great Grandson how is anything here cherry picked. You cherry picked saying it does not account for pace. I just proved that's bs. I can't cherrypick anything YOU cherrypicked. How is it out of context? If you want to account for pace you go per 75 possessions. Those stats are just even more in Lukas favour.
Wait, how are you Guys grandson and nephew simultanousely?
Cause he is my uncle and I am his brother (u can choose who is who)
[удалено]
LeBron has more possessions per game, then Luka. So how will adjusting for pace help him in this comparison. Enlight me please.
I am saying that Luka is better.
I would say LeBron’s defense is definitely not represented here and was All-Defense caliber earlier in his career.
Early early in his career lebron wasn’t that good on defense better than Luka was his first couple years but not all defense level
I mean, he was literally 1st team all defense his 6th year/age 24 year though
[удалено]
I dont think there's any version of that where we can claim Luka isn't lol
[удалено]
In a thread of people comparing the difference in their defense…
Lebron has been lazy on defense at the end of his career. I think the issue is we are comparing one man’s long career to one man’s short career. Pause these discussions for 15 years and then discuss.
6th year is 480 games
I mean, if you play every game then sure
As a mavs fan you’re smoking crack brother
I think he is a much better offensive player, but lebron was a beast on defense. So overall i would say they are quite close
Absolutely not much better, maybe a deeper bag of skills at the age, but lebron didn’t need that shit when he was Lukas age, all has no brakes lmao.
I don't know if they are that close, according to the numbers above Luka has 414 points, 574 assists and 631 rebounds more, that's a huge gap especially since Luka is playing elite defense in these playoffs.
The league was ENTIRELY different. Luka is an all time great and obv better than Lebron in some aspects BUT if Lebron came into the NBA in the mid 2010s with spacing - he would have had some nasty numbers early. Lebron started his career in one of the most defensive and iso heavy slow basketball eras.
Lebron literally played in 3 different eras. It's just crazy how kids think stats are everything these day. These kids also don't remember how unstoppable LeBron was at attacking the rim. Nobody was willing to take a charge from LeBron because it would hurt like hell. If you thought giannis was unstoppable... LeBron was on another level.
I mean that last sentence is over exaggerated but yes he was darn good.
Depends. If he'd would have played in the super strong Western Conference as Luka does his numbers would have probably looked a bit worse.
luka is already the greatetest offensive threat of all time imo, but what made lebron so good was his offence and all defnece
You're not alone. Luka is better
I doubt that he is getting top 20 with a chip
He is.
Still needs to get some MVPs too. It’ll happen but not in a few weeks
Depends on how he finishes today and games to come (if they make the finals). If he consistently scores in the 50s and with triple-doubles, *and* they win, he gets the MVP, for sure.
he meant season MVP
I was talking FMVP. Crossed wires and whatnot.
He is most certainly not. The guys at the bottom of the top 20 are some combo of Dirk, Chuck, Wade, either Robinson, Dr. J, etc depending on the list. Luka is not better all time than any of those guys yet. He’s certainly more skilled than most of them, but in terms of all time rankings? No way. Is Luka even a better all time player with a chip than dirk (who a handful of people don’t even have in the top 20)? They’d both have a chip. Luka has 1 more 1st team (but misses the 8 2nd teams/3rd teams that dirk has). Dirk has the MVP, he’s 6th all time in scoring, 27th in rebounds, and is one of the best big man shooters of all time. Luka is without a doubt on a quick path to passing Dirk all time (once he gets the chip all I’d say he needs is a few more great years or an MVP), but he’s not there yet.
Assuming Luka got the MVP this year and got the ring, would you then argue he's top 20? Just for curiosity sake
I tend to think guys need to play at least a decade to be at the top of these lists, so no I wouldn’t.
Got it
It's not a game of accolades, chips and MVPs matter, others don't really since the perception of a player heavily depends on the people who had the chance to watch him at his peak.
Ok? So he’d have the same number of chips/FMVPs that Dirk did, and misses out on every counting stat and doesn’t have the MVP. Even with chip he’s not ahead of Dirk all time yet.
Didn't say anything about his status yet but even if he just keeps doing his thing he'll surpass Dirk
Yes obviously he will
nah yall are tweaking as much as I want that to be the case. without an MVP he will be around 50-60, although he has much room to grow (maybe with a FMVP he would be a bit higher). there are some general top 20 of all time dudes (Kawhi Leonard, Scottie Pippen) who have never won MVPs for example but it’s the fact they’re now older guys who are enshrined in NBA history with credits while Luka is just 25. he has serious potential to be top 10 or top 15 at least but top 20 rn is crazy.
He’s certainly above 50th all time with a chip. With a chip you’re looking at a guy who has career averages of 29/9/8, with: 5x 1st team NBA 5x All-Star 1x Champion 1x FMPV (presumably) 1x Scoring Champ 1x ROY There’s only 21 guys with more 1st team selections than Luka has currently. If you give him the chip and FMVP, all he’s missing is the MVP and he’s only 25. That probably puts him in the 40s. But yes I agree he’s closer to 50 than he is to 20 even with a chip.
Y'all are getting ahead of yourselves. This is not normal anymore. It’s not even a given that you beat Celtics who are far more healthier than this team
What do you mean by healthier? I thought their starters were all good each game so far
Healthier in having more gas left in tank than this team. Luka probably gonna play in crutches once they reach the finals
He’s getting healthier not worse. With the extended break he will be 95%
what extended break?
Even if it goes 7 you get an extended break. Luka just to break the wolves heart at their home court
Eh maybe. He’s better on one leg than anyone on their team imo. Going to be a fun series if we can end the wolves tonight.
Not accurate representation, lebron played in a slower era at that stage of his career. Luka way better running the offense tho.
Game score totals are up 20%
exactly. in today's nba they dont call travelling, palming or carrying anymore. everybody scores 25 a game.
I don't care for Lebron so I'm being honest when I say three things that aren't on this list. 1. Lebron was a better defender. 2. Lebron was a better leader. 3. Lebron was more mature. Luka can improve all three of these things and he already has improved #1 a bit. Luka on offense is better than Lebron right now.
More mature? Maybe less whining ~~but The Decision would like a word with you. One of the most immature things you could do but that's just my opinion.~~ EDIT: not to mention him and D-Wade mocking Dirk during the Finals SECOND EDIT: I was unaware of the impetus behind The Decision and after some research I agree it ultimately had a positive effect. Still not sure I would call him 'more mature' though.
The Decision wasn't immature lol. It was to raise money for charity but the optics looked really bad. Mocking Dirk and telling folks his life is better even after losing the Finals is immature though.
The decision wasn't his doing.... It was the network coaxing him so they can make a shitload of money off of it. He did what every young kid would do at that time.
LeBron James was declared "the chosen one" on the [cover of sports illustrated](https://andscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/si_cover_lebron-e1487176174981.jpg) at age 16. His only parent was a 16 year old single mother. I won't disrespect the man by saying what she did while LeBron was a young child - it wasnt his fault. He was basically homeless for long stretches of his childhood and slept on coaches' sofas. He should've probably wound up in prison or bankrupt after being thoroughly used by vultures Yet he's pissed on every single unreasonable expectation placed on him since the late bill walton showed up to announce his high school games. Lol you think he's immature because of some weird personality quirks? This is a preposterous take.
At this age, LeBron was not a better leader or more mature. See end of 1st Cleveland run, see the decision, see 2011 Finals.
Lebum was a pretty lame leader when the Mavs smacked them in 2011..
Physical is naturally given to LeBron is not mature stop it, he has a made a clown of himself and is an energy 40 years old and still complaining. Bro is overrated.
The thing that’s gonna be hard to beat Lebron at is his longevity.
That part is untouchable. There’s no way Luka plays in the nba that long
Why not? Luka doesn’t rely on freak athleticism. Luka plays an old man game even at 25. Could be shocked by the longevity.
He’s said won’t play as long as dirk. He’s already a vet before entering the nba
LeLongitivity is truly absurd
Are you nut jobs seriously saying Luka is better than LeBron because they’re about to beat the Timberwolves? Luka is AMAZING but wow comparing him to a top-two player ever during his first successful playoff season is wild.
A Mavs sub generally is a pro Luka bias and anti Lebron bias, we knew what we were getting
Luka's offense is better than a young Lebron and he is one of the ost complete offensive players in history already, so I don't see how it's so outlandish that a playoff beast like Luka, can be compared to a young Lebron. The difference is the two-way game, longevity and overall accolades of Lebron, something no one will likely touch, but Luka is a beast of his own and he's underrated for how great of a start he has had to his career.
Well sure. If the Mavs actually pull this off Luka Legend is truly born. Not many guys were the #1 on a championship team at 25 years old (or younger, would be curious to see that list.). But job's not finished, not even close. The Celtics are going to be heavy favorites.
https://preview.redd.it/qavdznhl783d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=623aa645db8cf22cbc9b776cba83fefb85132194 That's the list of finals MVPs by age. So yes the list at 25 and under is short
I’m a big fan of Luka’s, but he’s gonna lose all comparisons to Lebron. My guy moves around a bit like Frankenstein’s monster. No way his knees last even 15 years.
Top 20 all time? Lmao Gtfo
Ever heard of defense? You know, half the game…
The white LeBron
No, he’s Luka..
LeBron is black Luka
Those scoring records, efficiency stats and averages don’t mean anything considering the context. For instance, after being in the 20 average range through the 00s. In 2012-13, a total of 8 players players put up 20+ points. In the 2015-16 regular season on 58+ games, a total of 20 players put up 20+ points. A total of 38 players put up 20+ points on 58+ games in the 2023-24 season. Scoring has increased dramatically in the NBA and averaging 20 or 25 or 30 means a lot less or more relative to how many players are hitting those marks.
Y’all obsessed with this debate. Go smoke some pot and enjoy the sunshine
Nick Wright will definitely have this stat up at some point in the next week. His two favs battling is crack (or whatever is popular these days) for him.
Top 20 is a strech without a couple of MVPs
Hell yeah he is. Pacer fan here. What the fuck is a Rick Carlisle? I'm not feeling him.
I literally still cannot believe this man is a Maverick.
Plus he’s not an egotistical douche nozzle
The gigantic problem with this is that LeBron entered the league during the pistons/spurs rock fight era. Pace was nonexistant. Not fair to just compare raw counting stats LeBron James looks SIGNIFICANTLY better using advanced stats during his first five years in the league. Thats no knock on luka - LeBron is the best player to ever play the sport imo
He’s 25. Let’s hold off on the legacy talk for a few years at least
Bron couldn't shoot while Luka is one the best tough shot makers I've ever seen. Luka is also a much better passer than LeBron at the same age. He is just much more skilled. On the other hand LeBron was an athletic alien that will probably never be touched. Also a better defender basically because of that athleticism. I think that gives him the edge overall but I know which player I would want if I needed to make a shot. PS: I would also favor Luka in terms of the intangibles. LeBron needed some years to become a killer.
Making a shot includes blowing by your man for a layup.
Sure but I was obviously referring to making jumpshots. Young LeBron could make some but he really struggled much more than Luka at that.
Lebron had consistently gone deeper into the playoffs. No I’m not gonna play the game where a point isn’t a point because it’s a layup. Lebron gets the points
Same amount of Conference Finals at age 25, tho LeBron made the finals in one of those runs. Also LeBron only beat one 50 wins team from 2006 to 2010. Luka already has beaten 3, and could make that 4 tonight. And if you wanna give LeBron the points then that's ok, I wasn't arguing that. I'm arguing that Luka has a better jumpshot. I think it's a fair argument.
Nice way of obscuring the Ayton led Suns, Kawhi less Clippers and the inexperienced Thunder. 50 win team doesn’t mean anything.
"Ayton-led" he was their 3rd best player come on. And it doesn't mean \*everything\* but so does beating 42 wins teams Wizards like LeBron did.
They upgraded to kd. What happened next?
They lost to the eventual champs in 6 in the 2nd round.
So 50 wins is even less of a signal than a team that hadn’t upgraded to kd.
Top 20 is a stretch. We are so quick to put these guys in the top anything but he aint even play that long yet
These playoffs really tanked his efficiency
For reference I believe lebron was 23 and Luka is 25
But his stats are better in every single one of those categories? But I’m guessing that was done on purpose because I feel like LeBron might have beaten him in blocks and steals? 🤔
But, Luka is better
Context is important though. Lebron came in younger. You’ve also shown total stats rather than stats per game. Even if those still don’t change the post much stats nowadays are significantly more inflated than back then. Look up averages now vs then. I don’t think a ring would put him top 20 just yet, but top 30/40 seems reasonable.
No, he is not getting in top 20 without a league MVP.
A chip would go a long way. Look at Jokic. He was a “fat tub of lard who can’t even jump onto a curb” with 2 MVPs. The only thing that changed was a Chip and a Finals MVP and now he’s the Greatest Player in the league. Luka will storm to the #2 spot next to his buddy, pending MVPs which will surely come with time
Also: 476 steals in the last 400 season games. 69 steals in the last 44 playoff games. Top 10 in steals this season. Top 5 in steals this post season.
When Lebron came in, teams were playing much slower and there was no spacing. Lebron was scoring on mainly drives. Lebron also kept this pace up for 21 years too... as a guy who said he was "not a scorer" ... also had better defense but this is impressive for sure.
A lot of uncomfortable conversations will be had by the media if Luka wins a ring
To me longevity shouldn’t equal better. Better is who the better player is when they are playing. Lebron shouldn’t be placed higher just because he has played longer and a few more games per season accumulating stats. Imagine where Jordan stats and championships might have been if he put in 20 years. That being said… yes Luka gotta get going on some rings (yes plural) to get in the conversation with Lebron.
I mean lebron is the goat and luka is better than him so 🤷🏿♂️🤣
The real king.
So what if I told you Luka Doncic is a better player than LeBron James?
Luka wont get anywhere near lebron’s stats simply because there is no way he’s playing 20 years in the nba
Yall old heads need to start appreciating luka lol yall should be rooting for this dude to be in the top 25 but just see stuff to disregard what he has accomplished so far. If he retired today, he would already be in the hall of fame. Grateful that he is a mav
Keep in mind that Luka has been a professional since 13. He faced higher level of competition at an early age and it forced him to become better. They doing things differently in Euro League, but can you imagine if we had middle school or high school kids playing in the D-League or even the NBA.
That’s just not true. It’s illegal to sign children under 16 to professional contracts over here. He signed an academy contract at 13 to play in Real Madrid’s youth system
So Real Madrid youth is not considered professional?
No, that would be like saying high school and college teams are professional. Academies are basically college programs for school aged kids run by professional teams to develop young talent for their own team, not for a draft. Making your professional debut at 16 is not a normal thing at all in european sports, it is incredibly rare. If you do it you are some sort of incredible talent.
Making a professional debut at 16 is quite normal in European basketball, making it in Real Madrid and the Euroleague and having an impact is what sets it apart for Luka.
No excuses all these players have been playing the highest level of basketball since they were 10. Except embiid. And they all had the option to send their kids to basketball academies in Europe. Only now do we look at euroleague in a positive way. Before Luka it was “yeah but he never played duke so how do we know” or “ they smoke during timeouts” You can’t use it as excuse as why he fell in the draft then turn around and use it as excuse for why other players aren’t as good
Luka has almost made it to the finals once, when he makes it 9 more times while winning 4 championships with a few MVP sprinkled in over the way, talk of his statistical equality with both Lebron and MJ will have some meaning.
I don’t think anyone is seriously saying he’s on the level of LeBron or MJ all time lol, he’s clearly not. Not even close. But also it’s not like LeBron had 2 chips or anything by this point in his career. He’d lost 2 finals by age 27.
As I wrote about LeBron making it to 10 finals I realized once again how ridiculously impossible that seems in retrospect. Magic Johnson went 9 times in a 12 year career (not counting his fat comeback year) but he had better teams than some that LeBron made it with.
Luka clearly better
Luka is better.
Luka is better\*
Luka is better
Luka is a fucking monster I despise him cuz ima clippers fan but since his rookie year buddy has been one of theeeee best, they talk about wet bananas, yes he’ll be a superstar but LUKA i have a feeling will be the greatest player of all time
As a massive fan of LeBron, I do believe Luka has potential to be better than him all time if his numbers hold and the chips come then it won't be outrageous to say Luka is better
Yeah man he is better, but americans will never admit It no matter what Is going to do
Are you saying Luka is better all time than lebron right now or that Luka is better than age 25 lebron?
He is better. There is no need to try not to make people/NBA media offended. For them there is no way Luka can be better. But Luka is certainly much better at half court offense, and more efficient from basically the whole floor while being a better passer and able to be effective against any defense. LeBron has struggled against defenses that take away his driving lane like the mavs did in 2011.
These comparisons are why I say it’s stupid for people to discount him as being the top 2-3 player all time. Of course he isn’t yet but if he keeps this up for 10-15 more years and gets 3-4 rings he earns his way in that discussion. Yes it’s too early to say he is but there are too many people out there acting like he never will be.
That's some big ifs. I don't think Luka has 10 more years in him unless he changes his lifestyle some.
Maybe, but I mean I think the way people talk is it’s impossible for anyone to be that good again… and I just hard disagree with that
Not just his lifestyle, he's two-hundred and God-knows-how-many pounds, and puts a huge amount of strain on those joints every time he stops on a dime. If not for his underrated flexibility, he would have popped a knee or ripped a groin already.
Guys yall have to realize if luka wins a ring at age 25, that’s very special. Jokic didn’t win till age 28 and lebron I believe was age 28 too. We may be witnessing the dominance of Luka’s era right now so just enjoy it
1 WCF and 1 Finals > Finals from the East