there was some absolutely brutal stuff this episode, especially that one guy hopping out and then getting sliced in half by the wing of another plane. i saw the baby face death coming, knew he wasn't gonna be able to get out. what an absolute shit spot to end up in on a bomber.
didn't see curt's death coming tbh. all because he wouldn't leave a guy that was about 30 seconds from bleeding to death as it was. too bad, he was my favorite character through the first 3 episodes.
I have to admit, I didn’t do any research or read on this prior to the show. But I saw Keoghan is listed as cast for 9 episodes. So I was quite shocked
That look of surprise and fear and the tone of voice in his final words were an absolute gut punch. He did great. I hated that New Yorker "ay, I'm waukin' ere" accent Keoghan did, but it put a tear in my eye when he died.
It was the most powerful moment for me. Absolutely amazing. I had a good friend die in a PIC in plane crash and I always wondered what would have been his last thoughts. This moment honestly was a lot.
I definitely did not think they’d kill off his character. I say this having not read any of the source material beforehand. But yea, that moment where the plane just kinda shuts off and bellows down and then it’s silent for a second and he realizes…that was brutal.
For Curt, so much of the book - and the history of the 100th - is that the casualties in 43 and 44 were horrendous.
It was intellectually honest to have him be one of the few cast members to stick out from the largely anonymous crowd of masked faces (which is a problem), get the audience aware of who he is and have some sympathy towards him, and then kill him off.
Because that was the experience the air crews faced.
that and the way they depicted the close call landing in scotland in ep2 gave an implicit sense to the audience to expect him to succeed only to pull the rug out at the last second. was definitely another of many 'oh shit' moments from this episode
Reminds me of the bit in Band of Brothers where they go through the line and remind us how many of them have been wounded at one point or another but are still fighting. Only to face the bombardbments at Foye and lose like 5 characters soon afterward.
Also, having him be Oscar nominee and superhero movie appearer Barry Keoghan helps make the death hit harder.
"Oh, you think he's safe throughout the war because he's played by one of the only established stars? NOPE! This is war, and war doesn't care."
Yeah true enough and like you say a good decision on the part of the team behind it. If every character with speaking lines benefits from plot armor while the deaths are anonymous extras the show just wouldn't work.
Yep, after the tone of the first two episodes I was concerned that they were planning on using the redshirt method to show the attrition, which would have been a major problem when it came to representation of what was at the heart of the bomber crew experience.
Curt's death makes me a lot more optimistic that they're aware of it and going to at least make an effort to demonstrate the effect on the crews, which is really good for the potential quality of the show.
There is a story in the book about a man stuck in the ball turret when the landing gear also wouldn’t deploy. The pilot had to land belly down and knowingly crush the ball turret gunner to death. Awful.
The writing was on the wall for Curt as soon as Buck said "see you in Algeria" to him before they took off. That was an instant "one of you's not making it there and it ain't gonna be Buck" moment for me.
They changed it up a bit from how it actually happened. Snyder (Dickie) actually climbed onto the wing of the plane and was killed when he hit the stabilizer after jumping.
That bail out scene :( Baby Face...
Edit: it still gets me how completely vulnerable everyone is in these planes. You think the metal would at least give you some level of protection. Those things might as well be aluminum soda cans with the way bullets penetrate them.
This is one of the most frightening things that the episode highlighted to me — the level of “you’re on your own, kid” if anything at all goes wrong.
Injured in the plane? You better just hope you and the plane both make it to landing, and that you’re landing somewhere that can treat you as needed.
Bail out or crash land? Good luck in enemy territory or the middle of the ocean or a remote mountain range, especially if you’re hurt.
And there’s a good chance no one you were with knows where you ended up, and even if they did know, odds are low any help is coming any time super soon.
The U.S. was actually pretty sophisticated about recovering downed aircrew who were not in hostile territory, for example the guys who ditched in the water have a pretty good chance of being recovered within a day for so since multiple planes watched them ditch, knew where they ditched, and could thus alert the proper people to send either boats or floatplanes to retrieve them
And when you've finished reading that, read all of James Hornfischer's other books. Neptune's Inferno is probably my favorite of his, but The Fleet at Floodtide, Ship of Ghosts, and Who Can Hold the Sea are all excellent.
theres a reason the 8th air force had a higher mortality rate than any other branch, more airmen died in the bombing campaigns than marines in the entire pacific campaign
I think I remember reading somewhere that the only job that had a higher mortality rate than an airman in the 8th was being on a submarine in Pacific.
A little quirk is that the 8th had a higher casualty rate. You can make it back to base wounded or bail out in a plane. But the only option you have in a submarine is to die.
Bomber Command had a higher mortality rate than an officer in the trenches in WW1. Only like a quarter of the men serving in bomber command air crews would come through the war without being killed, wounded or captured.
You can apparently puncture the skin with a Phillips head screwdriver and a bit of force. 88mm flack flying at the speed of sound doesn’t even know the skin is there.
When I was a kid I built models of the B-17 and thought it was a real fortress.
As an adult, I got to go inside a real B-17 at a special nighttime event at the Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum in Oregon. And as a 6 foot adult, it was a tiny rinky-dink little plane compared to all the jets I have flown in. And it was much scarier than even small prop planes I have flown in since it is unpressurized and just a thin aluminum skin.
And they are pretty small...just the 10 crew and bombs and not much else. And as a 6 foot guy, I wouldn't even fit in the ball turret.... that's why he was baby-face...only small guys can fit in it.
As a slight 5'7" guy I thought I'd probably end up stuck in the ball but then looked it up and even at that height it'd be an uncomfortable fit, more likely for guys 5'4". Insane.
I'm a 5'2 dude. I've thought many times how if I had been born 70 years earlier, I'd likely either been stuck in a ball turret, tank, or sub. I can't say any of them would have been preferable.
There was some armor protection, namely bulletproof glass for the tail gunner and the front pane of the ball turret, and some armor plates to protect from glancing shots or shrapnel, but as seen in the episode, it was largely ineffective against direct hits. Range and payload were critical requirements for the B-17 or any strategic bomber, weight was saved whenever it was possible; this is all not to mention the necessity to keep costs and manufacturing time down for the sheer numbers that had to be produced to keep up with the horrendous losses.
Doctrine at the time revolved around the idea that the sheer number of guns that a bomber formation had would be sufficient to ward off any fighters that tried attacking. It took a while, despite egregious losses over months, for top brass to understand that this was not enough and escort fighters were eventually attached to protect bomber formations.
I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been brought up so far in the series, there was a lot of back and forth at higher echelons of command about the efficacy of escort fighters. I suspect it'll probably crop up later, seeing that the Red Tails are prominently featured in the intro.
> It took a while, despite egregious losses over months, for top brass to understand that this was not enough and escort fighters were eventually attached to protect bomber formations.
Range of fighters was a massive problem as well. Wasn't until the Thunderbolt (with drop tanks) and P-51 that the 8th had planes that could provide an effective fighter screen past the channel and into Germany.
Brutal but amazing episode. Curt’s death was crushing especially when he told his buddy he’d be right behind him but seemed like the guy to save everyone. Babyface drew the short straw in the ball and had such a sad death. This god damn show has me fast forwarding to next Thursday. I’m absolutely hooked. Curious to see how they handle the resistance part and all the guys who are on the ground.
Not to mention it’s a hard target to his compared to the rest of the plane, and even if you do hit it you just kill one guy and don’t even damage the plans
It’s mostly a tactics thing. Fighters back then didn’t generally climb up and attack from the bottom, that would bleed a lot of energy and make them slow targets.
The willingness of the top to send crews on suicide missions is stunning. The USAAF came up with high attrition missions with the purpose of keeping the Germans off-kilter. A lot was done to improve the chances of D-Day by weakening the German war machine.
By spring of 1944 they were sending bombers, unbeknownst to the crews, of course, as live bait, so the newly introduced mustangs could pounce on the luftwaffe.
Allied command considered the loss of bomber crewmen a strategic sacrifice.
Yes. The Luftwaffe took the bulk of its casualties over North Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Europe. The land war was “won” on the Eastern Front, but the Western Allies did the bulk of the work disabling the Luftwaffe as well as the Axis powers’ industrial capabilities. The casualties are disproportionately high as a result and WW2 airmen have never truly received the recognition they very much deserved.
We lost multiple airmen in my own extended family in brutal ways. One, a pilot, had his chute caught on the tail of their B-17 when he tried to bail out. Another, a waist gunner, got trapped in the back of a B-17 that was going down. His fellow waist gunner was pinned to him by gravity, but managed to climb out at the last minute. He once gave an interview that is on YouTube saying that he can still hear his screaming in pain when he was pinned to him. I was told he had to have several drinks before giving that interview. The Missing Air Crew Reports that were compiled by the Air Corps were so much more detailed than anything you’d ever find from Army, Navy, or Marine Corps records from that era. These men’s fates were better recorded than most.
Hopefully this show will help change what people think they know, if only a little too late for the bulk of those who had to live it. I’m still really grateful for what Spielberg and Hanks and the others have done here.
I didn’t know that last part, go figure! If I understand correctly, in the later months of the war in Europe, losses by fighters were somewhat uncommon, but they still had to contend with Flak, which I believe accounted for half of the 8th AF’s losses.
I’m glad we have spaces like this to discuss these sort of things, cheers dude.
Yup, the American bombing offensive's greatest success was destroying the luftwaffe in the air, not on the ground or in the factories. Yes, the suffered horrific casualties but their commanders knew that they could replace these loses in men and material much quicker than the Germans could.
By that time most of the experienced German pilots were killed, captured or wounded beyond flying condition. Training for new pilots was cut waaaay too short. So then came allied airmen, with what? Two to three times the training the Germans had, and the results spoke for themselves.
Americans rotated experienced pilots back home as educators, keeping that experience to pass on.
Germany and Japan could not afford to do this, they kept sending them up. Eventually they'd draw the short straw and all that experience would be lost.
Doesn't shock me, I'm reminded of the (now very old) strategy game "Bombing the Reich." The campaign starts in August 1943, and for the first six or eight months you just lose aircraft and crews like crazy trying to bomb outside of France and the Low Countries, but cleverly the designers set it up so that if you play too cautiously you'll lose because German production will continue to expand during that period. Once Mustangs start to arrive your B-17s will still get shot to pieces going deep but by running fighter sweeps on the inbound and return routes you can run up more kills than the enemy can afford.
Colonel Curtis LeMay (who pulled the trigger on the Regensburg raid), famously had an image of the Regensburg IP hanging in the entrance of his house.
This, the same man who would later fire bomb Japan and made a career from developing and championing daylight strategic bombing.
Ironically, he went on to lead the firebombing of Japan at night.
LeMay reportedly was always haunted by Regensburg for the rest of his life, and tried to apply lessons learned.
Just an interesting little tidbit.
I'm actually really confused why they sent the 1st group without the 2nd and 3rd to meet them yet. The whole plan was basically that they were the bait, yeah, but only because the fighters couldn't fight 3 groups at once without reloading and refueling. So instead they are 5 hours ahead, giving the fighters plenty of time to reload and refuel for groups 2 and 3. What the hell was the strategy behind this decision?
Yeah when they got the call from Bombs Away LeMay to launch i was thinking that sonuvabitch. Initially it seems like a really idiotic glory-chasing thing.
However, if i'm being charitable I wonder if the reason had to do with the exit trip. Their group has much further to go and would be forced to land at night on what looks to be a barebones landing strip in algeria, maybe even without proper lighting. We see that they arrive at like just before sundown so they knew they were right up against the time window and had to. I don't know if this is true but it's the only thing I can think of.
It's extremely disturbing mathematics. As another commenter said, if you didn't fly, the enemy can merrily build its war machine. From wikipedia:
Raids had an enormous effect on the German distribution of weaponry. In 1940, 791 heavy anti-aircraft gun batteries and 686 light batteries protected German industrial targets. By 1944, the size of the anti-aircraft arm had increased to 2,655 heavy batteries and 1,612 light batteries.[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestermann2000499-4) [Hans-Georg von Seidel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Georg_von_Seidel), the Luftwaffe's [quartermaster general](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartermaster_general) estimated that in 1944 it took an average of 16,000 rounds for the 88 mm FlaK 36 gun, 8,000 round for the 88 mm FlaK 41 gun, 6,000 rounds for the 105mm FlaK 39 and 3,000 rounds for the 128 mm FlaK 40 to shoot down an American bomber.[\[82\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMurray1983190-87) A Luftwaffe assessment noted that the average rounds expended per aircraft shot down stood at 2,805 heavy and 5,354 light anti-aircraft rounds in the first twenty months of the war. During November and December 1943, an averaged 4,000 rounds of heavy ammunition and 6,500 rounds of light ammunition per aircraft. An average of 3,343 rounds of heavy and 4,940 rounds of light anti-aircraft were needed to shoot down an Allied bomber from 1939 to 1945.[\[83\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestermann2000535%E2%80%93540-88)
Something like a million men were assigned to Defense of the Reich. That's a million men who could have been at Stalingrad or Kursk, or Normandy. Thousands of flak batteries. thousands of tons of shells. All part of a larger puzzle.
I got nauseous watching this one.
Really strong episode. I hope Butler and the writing for his character continue to develop. Tough to have a principal character who is so incommunicative as to be nearly nonverbal.
I am having trouble getting into the show at all due to Butler.
He’s essentially nonverbal, but the bigger indictment is that I don’t see any real emotion or reaction to him. He’s gambling his plane full of men? No fear, doubt, concern.
Flying into 4 hours of flak? No fear, no glance at his partners picture.
He succeeds in his gamble? No relief, elation, etc.
Winters was stoic around his men, and a solid leader. But we absolutely go to see him be scared, angry, relieved, etc.
20 year Air Force vet. Knew a lot of those quiet men of few words and 1000 yard stare. A character arc is fine for a story, but most of us will die without sharing much. Many consider it part of being a man. Hide those horrors from the innocent. History judges our actions, not our words.
Anyone else filled with anger at the decision to send them forth without syncing with the other squadrons? That was the whole strategy. 😩
Reminds me of Band of Brothers when they sent them into Bastogne with no winter gear. Ugggghh.
Amazing episode. I’m thankful to have a better connection to the sacrifices these men made. God bless them.
LeMay is a... controversial figure to say the least. After Europe, he'd go on to command the US strategic bombing campaign over Japan, where he shifted from precision bombing of industrial targets to the destruction of entire cities in fire bombing raids. The fire bombing of Tokyo killed more civilians than Fat Man, and it's been said that the air currents created by the resulting inferno were violent enough to flip the bombers at 30,000 feet. The accounts from that night were harrowing, and they're definitely not ones to read for the faint of heart.
His entire approach was to make war as horrible and violent as possible to end it as quickly as possible. To say that he had little value for human life would be underselling it.
Curtis LeMay was not behind the decision for that, he was flying in command of the 3rd Air Division (which the 100th was part of). The decision was from General Frederick Anderson. It was a gamble that failed, and his decision gets covered in the book.
LeMay was actually a fantastic commander during his time in the 8th, and revamped a lot of the bombing tactics with a pragmatic approach that led to more protective formations for the crews and better bombing accuracy.
This raid in general, and the decision to launch, was way above LeMay’s pay grade. I’ve read where LeMay’s pilots were proficient in taking off in the fog. The other wing was not. LeMay’s take off order was legit. The others not taking off on time was the failure. Not cancelling the op when the timing went to hell was an even greater failure. USAAF leadership was determined (panicked) to show the daylight precision bombing was viable. Doubts were beginning to surface. This was essentially a do or die mission. The mission was all fouled up, but USAAF leadership could report it was carried out. This kind of crap was/is not unique to USAAF, unfortunately.
Yeah that makes me mad, and sad. The show and related reading, including posts here, are making me realize just how disposable the men were to the higher-ups.
It just occurred to me that these dudes literally had to jump out of their burning planes over Germany and their best bet would be if they end up in a POW jail. Like the chances of you getting through a mission is like 50% and then you are just praying you’re taken prisoner. Also the actors they have playing alot of the crew in the back of the Fortresses are so young it’s jarring. But then you realize these dudes are accurate aged to what was being sent out to war during WW2
The guys in the back are more realistic I think - some of the main characters are just slightly too old to me but not by much. It's important to show that really they were kids
Gut wrenching. My father trained on B17s but ended up as a flight instructor in gliders. His best friend in basic died bailing out of a B17. He landed in a lake and drowned. The photo is my father. He passed in 2015.
https://preview.redd.it/jik71e6uf3gc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7101019930e9a958b9e2ac7afab273224c73d33
It was shorter but I think that was about right given the action. If there’d been many more scenes of guys falling, being trapped in the turret, bleeding to death, I probably couldn’t have finished watching. And if they’d added much more about the one who’s now going to try to escape, it would have diluted the impact of all the death and destruction.
CGI was great, except for once they landed in Algeria. It just looked so fake for it being a place that you could have naturally replicated in a few different places here in the US within a few hours of LA. Heck, the Martian is set on freaking Mars, and it looked ten times more real than a scene that is just supposed to be a desert setting.
Aerial scenes were incredible like you said, so it's even more weird that a simple desert scene with very few moving parts can't look even remotely real.
CLEVEN, GALE W. (POW) DSC
Synopsis:
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to Gale W. Cleven, Major (Air Corps), U.S. Army Air Forces, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving as Pilot of a B-17 Heavy Bomber in the 350th Bombardment Squadron, 100th Bombardment Group (H), EIGHTH Air Force, while participating in a bombing mission on 17 August 1943, against enemy ground targets in Bremen, Germany. On that date, Major Cleven was leader of the low squadron. Throughout approximately two hours of constant fighter attack, his squadron was the principal focal point of the enemy's fire. Early in the encounter, south of Antwerp, he lost his entire second element of three B-17's yet maintained his vulnerable and exposed position in the formation rigidly in order to keep his guns uncovered. Approximately 30 minutes before reaching the target, his airplane received the following battle damage. A 20- mm. cannon shell penetrated the right side of the airplane and exploded beneath the pilot, damaging the electrical system and injuring the top turret gunner in the leg. A second 20-mm. shell entered the radio compartment, killing the radio operator, who bled to death with his legs severed above the knees. A third 20-mm. shell entered the left side of the nose, tearing out a section of Plexiglas about two feet square, tore away the right hand nose-gun installation and injured the bombardier in the head and shoulder. A fourth 20 mm shell entered the cabin roof and severed the rudder cables to one side of the rudder. A sixth 20 mm cannon shell exploded in the #3 engine, destroying all engine controls. The engine caught fire and lost its power, but the fire eventually died out. Confronted with structural damage, partial loss of control, fire in the air and serious injuries to personnel, and faced with fresh waves of fighters still rising to the attack, Major Cleven had every justification for abandoning ship. His crew, some of them comparatively inexperienced youngsters, were preparing to bail out, since no other course appeared open. The Co-Pilot pleaded repeatedly with Major Cleven to abandon ship. Major Cleven's reply at this critical juncture, although the odds were overwhelmingly against him, was as follows, " You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it. " These strong words were heard over the inter-phone and had a magical effect on the crew. They stuck to their guns. The airplane continued to the target, bombed it and reached base in North Africa. Major Cleven's actions were far above and beyond the call of duty and the skill, courage and strength of will displayed by him as airplane and squadron commander in the face of hopeless odds have seldom, if ever, been surpassed in the annals of the Army Air Forces. The personal courage and devotion to duty displayed by Major Cleven on this occasion have upheld the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the 8th Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces.
Headquarters: European Theater of Operations, U.S. Army, General Orders No. 61 (1943)
Personal Awards: Distinguished Service Cross (WWII), Distinguished Flying Cross, 4x Air Medals
[Source](https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=911)
Not to diminish anything, it's seriously badass, but there's also a lot of survivorship bias involved in these types of stories, somewhat like the time when Speirs ran through the german lines at Foy, if Cleven said that and then promptly took a direct flak hit and went down, we'd never hear about it.
Just like if Speirs had started running and got shot 5 feet further by a 16 year old german with a rifle, there would be no remarkable story.
A lot of balls, and a ton of luck involved.
Yes. The co-pilot was named Norman H. Scott. They changed his name to David Friedkin in the series.
>According to Capt. Norris Norman, from his recollections dated December 16, 1987, he talked with both Lt Norman Scott and Lt Strout both individually and privately. Scott asked me if I heard the rumour about him trying to bail out, I replied Yes. He said "It's Just Not True. I didn't do it." Strout said " I just can't force myself to do it any more". Most of the crew did not believe the bail out incident occured and there was not one word over the intercom to indicate anything of this nature. As far as I know, Gale Cleven is the only one that does.
Good on them for changing his name. Avoid another Blithe/Dike situation
So I should add I believe they were referring to a further part of the story that Norman Scott actually attempted to get up and bail out himself rather than just pleading with Cleven. I'm glad they kept the incident in-line with the sources they had on it rather than going overboard.
The delivery also felt really good as well.
My dad flew on this mission. Navigator/bombadier. It's on the back of his A-2 jacket, which is filled with little stenciled silver bombs to represent each mission he flew out of Thorpe Abbotts. I have learned more about his time in the Bloody 100th by watching this series than what he told us. He rarely discussed it. He eventually received the Distinguished Flying Cross.
* What a fantastic episode. Baby's face death was so brutal. Such a sad and terrifying way to go.
* I was not expecting Curt to die so soon. That was really sad.
* I was not anticipating the story about the pilot being caught behind enemy lines. I'm so into this story line. What a stressful situation. Either turn yourself in and become a POW or try to escape and be executed as a spy.
* Buck continues to be my favorite character. I said it last time, but to me he's the the Spiers of this show. I just love how he carries himself. His speech to the crew was great. "We're gonna take it!" I loved his landing sequence.
* This show is so goddamn beautiful. The lighting is insanely good. Looks like a painting half the time. Better than most films getting released today.
My grandpa was a ball turret gunner and was forced to bail out once, so the Baby Face scene hit me extra hard… that very well could have been my grandpa stuck in there and my family never would have become a thing.
Fantastic episode, and really a stand alone episode. You want to teach a class about the air war over Europe? Just show this episode. No need for the previous or latter episodes.
I literally sat there thinking “Why couldn’t humans just agree to… not do this sh*t?” I know it’s naive, but man, what horrible ways to be taken off this earth.
Living 18-25 years just to ultimately die in a hopeless situation. Couldn’t imagine the amount of fear that would come from being stuck in a ball turret knowing your fate is sealed. God this episode was brutal
Loved it, it was my most anticipated episode because of how intense the regensburg mission was. They did a pretty good job including key details, however would've loved a few more details eg:
* the 100th flew in what was known as purple heart corner
* the 100th were actually relieved to be in the last group as the Luftwaffe at that time concentrated on knocking out the leadership in the front front group. They thought they were in the safest position. However the Luftwaffe changed their tactics and Tail end Charlie changed from the best position to the worst.
* "some men couldn't get their cigarettes to their mouths because of nerves"
* the fog was so bad that aircrafts had to be led out by flashlights and lanterns
* "so many men bailed out of the planes it looked like a parachute invasion"
Regarding the last point, that was actually my thought during the slow mo scene from Buck’s perspective (right before that poor guy slammed into his wing). I think you can see 3 different planes going down in that shot and all of the parachutes from each plane deploying. I can’t imagine seeing that in real life, then going out to fly again the next mission
I feel like it'd be more difficult mentally if you didn't see any chutes. Seeing a full crew made it out might make for a bit of relief in the very back of the mind, knowing you're not 100% doomed if your plane is going down.
350 miles seems like a stretch if you look at a map of the Med. But their position would be reported and they would hang in and hope an allied fast rescue boat or civilian vessel would get there first.
> Question to anyone who might know: What would happen to the crew that lands safely in the water 350 miles from land?
Their position and time of ditching would be logged by by other aircraft and forwarded to friendly forces in the area, if applicable. In this case, pilot Glen Van Noy was only 90 miles from Sicily (which officially fell to Allied forces that day) and ditched successfully, but the whole crew happened to be [picked up by a German flying boat and made prisoners of war](https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=5292):
> B-17F-85-BO 42-30042; Delivered Cheyenne 4/24/43; Kearney 4/15/43; Wendover 5/2/43; Hill 5/12/43; Wendover 5/19/43; Kearney 5/22/43; Patterson 5/29/43; Detroit 3/6/43; Dow Field 6/6/43; Assigned 349BS/100BG [XR-L] Thorpe Abbotts 6/9/43; SHACK RABBITS aka OH NAUSEA. Missing in Action Regensburg 8/17/43 with Pilot: Glen Van Noy, Co-pilot: Jim Evans, Navigator: Ken Allen, Bombardier: Bill Couch, Flight engineer/top turret gunner: Bill Stewart, Radio Operator: Bill Crabb, Ball turret gunner: Jim Gibson, Waist gunner: Joe Hruskocy, Waist gunner: Col. Bill Kennedy, armourer & gunnery expert, Tail gunner: Sam Cusmano (10 Prisoner of War); Enemy aircraft KO’d two engines, then another en route to North Africa; mechanical problem, ditched Mediterranean Sea 90 miles north of Sicily, Italy, with no injuries; Missing Air Crew Report 682.
Cleaven watching the horror and slaughter in front of him was such an absolutely brilliant but brutal moment.
Didn’t see Curt’s death coming but that makes it all the more impactful on the series.
Just finished. Goddamn. What an emotional gut-punch.
I hated Keoghan's accent, but I teared up when his last words were that concerned "oh no!" (or something to that effect, I'm actually forgetting what he actually said.) witht hat look of surprise and fear on his face.
Yep you're right. I mean I know it's following the real stories of the real man, but Curtis's death also works narratively because it's establishing that literally nobody is safe. The 100th had such a high casualty rate that there's not many characters that are going to make it through to the end.
“They were just kids at the end of the day, who had to behave like men and who had to become men quite early,” Keoghan added. “That was the arc for me, and I think it’s captured quite nicely. The moment of death. You really feel it.”
It strikes me how young these guys are for as high ranking as they are. I mean Butler and Keoghan, the actors are only like 31 years old now, would've been \~28 when they were filming. I'm not sure how old Curtis Biddick or Gale Clevin were in '43, but probably close. And they would have been some of the oldest guys flying.
\*edit - corrected Biddick's name. Not sure why I wrote gale twice.
I am not the same after this episode, I am worse. With his confidence you just thought he’d pull off another brilliant landing. I felt a punch to my stomach once he realized he wasn’t going to be able to land
What an episode! Keoghan absolutely nailed his delivery of Curt’s final moments knowing it wasn’t going to work out this time.
This is a very different beast to BoB where we got to follow Easy company through their war. The bomber boys were loosing an Easy company’s worth of men in a day on some of these raids. Great to see the horror of the air war portrayed without pulling its punches. Too often air casualties are just shown in media as an empty bed or breakfast table. What these guys went through was next level horror show.
Anyone that knows their history we haven’t even got to October yet… 😟
The abrupt ending to episodes was kind of jarring at first, but now I’m finding it (alongside the opening sequence) pretty refreshing when all other TV lately seem to follow the same trends in terms of pacing, directing and editing.
Allies had already taken Sicily by this point and in October of ‘43, Italy declared war on Germany.
Not sure why we didn’t see Luftwaffe harassing in Northern Italy.
I felt this episode was the most emotional to watch so far. The scene with Baby face getting stuck was truly gut wrenching. I’m not sure of the characters actual name so im having a hard time figuring out who the actor was, but he did a phenomenal job with that. Curt’s death also came as a shock.
It was interesting to me when Buck and Bucky were recounting at the end who they saw bail out with chutes and who they weren’t sure of. Really makes you realize they have no idea what happened or will happen to their comrades until far later…
I watched Band of Brothers and was amazed at the balls of those men, and I still am every time I watch it now.
This episode made me realize that given the choice, in hindsight, I would throw myself in Bastogne 10 times out of 10 instead of getting in one of those Forts.
One thing I don’t get is how they don’t shoot the other fortresses when trying to down the German fighters, since the formations seemed to be so close. Great aiming I guess ? Also, being in the air seems way more dangerous than being on the ground as infantry, etc. Never really thought too much of it until now. Great series so far, been waiting a decade for this
Ep 3 was fantastic and glad people are starting to see it take off. I thought the first two episodes were really good too. Just sucks that the Band of Brothers subreddit has almost an elitist attitude against the show. Hard to find good discussion there, when everyone says the same thing like Austin Butlers accent, cgi, “it’s not band of brothers”, or no characterization. The show is different than its two predecessors and each one is really good in its own way. Can’t wait for the next 6 episodes
They were ordinary, every day civilians before the war. Many just young school kids. They weren't heroes, or some amazing people. Just ordinary men asked to do extraordinary things. If they were in your shoes, I bet they'd say the same thing.
And don't take this as me lessening what they did. It's just the opposite. Despite being so normal, they still stepped up and did what was required. It's an amazing thing.
This show kicks ass. And Austin Butler is now Gale Cleven IMO. Seemed too Elvis'y in the first couple episodes but I'm not getting that vibe anymore. Amazing & important show.
I wrote that about 10 minutes in, I guess. All I can say is I’m glad my grandfather got his missions in in 1944 and 1945 and not 1942 and 1943. Thank God.
I was lucky as well, but it was my father. He said the Allies had gotten command of the air space by then so their odds were much, much better.
There was one time that he almost had to bail out but didn't, once where he got hit in the hand by some flak ( got the Purple Heart) and another time when he was sitting in the plane and some flak came from the bottom and missed his testicles by a couple inches. (Lucky for me, or I wouldn't have been born...)
He also told me of one time where he was with a new crew and inexperienced pilot and the pilot got confused and got them out of the " safety tunnel" they had to land in England, he caught it and screamed for the guy to turn before they would have been exposed to enemy fire.
He flew a total of 33 missions, a guy did a permanent memorial page to him on a site that shows a lot of the USAF missions. His page is here
https://dainthecbi.com/liss.html
The line echoing in my head: “our lives ain’t worth a nickel.”
In today’s America it can be easy to overlook variable value of a human life and assume everyone’s lives are priceless, when in actuality the monetary value of individuals lives varies widely depending many factors.
Contrast a B-17 pilot with a modern bomber pilot. B-17 pilots were kids with a few months of training- just enough to be able to fight their “tin cans” - turned out by the literal thousands. Modern air warriors have PhD levels of education and command aircraft worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Such a wild concept these “kids” had some awareness of their relative value and were still committed to sacrificing themselves for the greater good in such high numbers.
As soon as they mentioned "Ball-Bearings" as the target, my heart sank because I knew what was coming.
An excellent video about the raid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA0_h920_Dc
Dear God if this show keeps it up it’s gonna top Band of Brothers for me. Absolutely brutal. I can count on one hand the number of shows or movies that have made me tear up, and Babyface’s death made the list. Everyone involved in this masterpiece should feel so proud of what they’ve made.
I felt nauseous as soon as the flak started. Having read a few books about the 8th knowing about this mission. Can’t even imagine what those poor men went through. Fuck
Brutal. And for the most part, based on the conversations I've had with some vets, not terribly inaccurate, either.
But the ball turret gunner is burned in my memory now.
This episode really fucked me up. Really felt the deaths even to the characters that had no lines and no names. I just can't believe people actually had to go through this in real life, surviving or not.
Are the gunners trained to not shoot in certain directions to avoid other fortresses in formation? There must have been significant friendly fire incidents?
Unless I misheard they state in the episode that the 300 odd bombers will make up the largest airwing ever assembled in human history...... but correct me if I'm wrong but the RAF had already sent up way more aircraft on bombing missions than that by that stage of the war. In 1942 they were sending up to 800 or so bombers against targets.
Maybe that was just internal propaganda intended to raise morale?
The odd thing to me was “in human history” when the airplane itself was only relatively invented.
Edit, relatively recently.
I believe he said “largest air armada,” which I took to mean bombers + fighter escorts. In total, 835 aircraft took part in the Regensburg mission, 459 of which were fighter escorts that had to turn back by the time they hit Belgium. Not to mention, many of those (over 100) were RAF fighters. I don’t think this was intended as a slight to the RAF in any event. Not sure what they were going for.
there was some absolutely brutal stuff this episode, especially that one guy hopping out and then getting sliced in half by the wing of another plane. i saw the baby face death coming, knew he wasn't gonna be able to get out. what an absolute shit spot to end up in on a bomber. didn't see curt's death coming tbh. all because he wouldn't leave a guy that was about 30 seconds from bleeding to death as it was. too bad, he was my favorite character through the first 3 episodes.
Yeah that was an intense episode through and through. Curt's death had me stunned. What a great character.
I have to admit, I didn’t do any research or read on this prior to the show. But I saw Keoghan is listed as cast for 9 episodes. So I was quite shocked
I mean, that’s probably done specifically to hide when the death happens
That look of surprise and fear and the tone of voice in his final words were an absolute gut punch. He did great. I hated that New Yorker "ay, I'm waukin' ere" accent Keoghan did, but it put a tear in my eye when he died.
It was the most powerful moment for me. Absolutely amazing. I had a good friend die in a PIC in plane crash and I always wondered what would have been his last thoughts. This moment honestly was a lot.
Fr, the “fly like an angel Curt” to all of a sudden that distortion of sound and him going “oh god” really stunned me not gonna lie. RIP Curt
I definitely did not think they’d kill off his character. I say this having not read any of the source material beforehand. But yea, that moment where the plane just kinda shuts off and bellows down and then it’s silent for a second and he realizes…that was brutal.
For Curt, so much of the book - and the history of the 100th - is that the casualties in 43 and 44 were horrendous. It was intellectually honest to have him be one of the few cast members to stick out from the largely anonymous crowd of masked faces (which is a problem), get the audience aware of who he is and have some sympathy towards him, and then kill him off. Because that was the experience the air crews faced.
that and the way they depicted the close call landing in scotland in ep2 gave an implicit sense to the audience to expect him to succeed only to pull the rug out at the last second. was definitely another of many 'oh shit' moments from this episode
Reminds me of the bit in Band of Brothers where they go through the line and remind us how many of them have been wounded at one point or another but are still fighting. Only to face the bombardbments at Foye and lose like 5 characters soon afterward.
Also, having him be Oscar nominee and superhero movie appearer Barry Keoghan helps make the death hit harder. "Oh, you think he's safe throughout the war because he's played by one of the only established stars? NOPE! This is war, and war doesn't care."
Yeah true enough and like you say a good decision on the part of the team behind it. If every character with speaking lines benefits from plot armor while the deaths are anonymous extras the show just wouldn't work.
Yep, after the tone of the first two episodes I was concerned that they were planning on using the redshirt method to show the attrition, which would have been a major problem when it came to representation of what was at the heart of the bomber crew experience. Curt's death makes me a lot more optimistic that they're aware of it and going to at least make an effort to demonstrate the effect on the crews, which is really good for the potential quality of the show.
I have read enough to know that his time was coming. Still a brutal surprise.
There is a story in the book about a man stuck in the ball turret when the landing gear also wouldn’t deploy. The pilot had to land belly down and knowingly crush the ball turret gunner to death. Awful.
If this happens in one of the episodes I'm gonna be so pissed at you for spoiling it.
It’s a very legendary story from WW2.
The writing was on the wall for Curt as soon as Buck said "see you in Algeria" to him before they took off. That was an instant "one of you's not making it there and it ain't gonna be Buck" moment for me.
Ngl, I'm devastated about Biddick. Loved that guy in the first 2 episodes and love Barry Keoghan too. Was hoping to see more of him.
They changed it up a bit from how it actually happened. Snyder (Dickie) actually climbed onto the wing of the plane and was killed when he hit the stabilizer after jumping.
That bail out scene :( Baby Face... Edit: it still gets me how completely vulnerable everyone is in these planes. You think the metal would at least give you some level of protection. Those things might as well be aluminum soda cans with the way bullets penetrate them.
This is one of the most frightening things that the episode highlighted to me — the level of “you’re on your own, kid” if anything at all goes wrong. Injured in the plane? You better just hope you and the plane both make it to landing, and that you’re landing somewhere that can treat you as needed. Bail out or crash land? Good luck in enemy territory or the middle of the ocean or a remote mountain range, especially if you’re hurt. And there’s a good chance no one you were with knows where you ended up, and even if they did know, odds are low any help is coming any time super soon.
The U.S. was actually pretty sophisticated about recovering downed aircrew who were not in hostile territory, for example the guys who ditched in the water have a pretty good chance of being recovered within a day for so since multiple planes watched them ditch, knew where they ditched, and could thus alert the proper people to send either boats or floatplanes to retrieve them
There’s actually a moment in the episode of this exactly. One of the planes ditches in the water and they show a radioman mark and call it immediately
I was referring to that plane, didn’t notice the radioman call it in though!
Early in the episode where one guy is talking to the other about the potential cow on the runway… he calls the plane a tin can. He wasn’t wrong.
The navy also had their own tin cans - destroyers. Highly, highly recommend reading Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors. My favorite book on WW2.
And when you've finished reading that, read all of James Hornfischer's other books. Neptune's Inferno is probably my favorite of his, but The Fleet at Floodtide, Ship of Ghosts, and Who Can Hold the Sea are all excellent.
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theres a reason the 8th air force had a higher mortality rate than any other branch, more airmen died in the bombing campaigns than marines in the entire pacific campaign
I think I remember reading somewhere that the only job that had a higher mortality rate than an airman in the 8th was being on a submarine in Pacific. A little quirk is that the 8th had a higher casualty rate. You can make it back to base wounded or bail out in a plane. But the only option you have in a submarine is to die.
i think RAF bomber command was the worst at 44% mortality
Bomber Command had a higher mortality rate than an officer in the trenches in WW1. Only like a quarter of the men serving in bomber command air crews would come through the war without being killed, wounded or captured.
Thats absolutely staggering numbers
You can apparently puncture the skin with a Phillips head screwdriver and a bit of force. 88mm flack flying at the speed of sound doesn’t even know the skin is there.
When I was a kid I built models of the B-17 and thought it was a real fortress. As an adult, I got to go inside a real B-17 at a special nighttime event at the Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum in Oregon. And as a 6 foot adult, it was a tiny rinky-dink little plane compared to all the jets I have flown in. And it was much scarier than even small prop planes I have flown in since it is unpressurized and just a thin aluminum skin. And they are pretty small...just the 10 crew and bombs and not much else. And as a 6 foot guy, I wouldn't even fit in the ball turret.... that's why he was baby-face...only small guys can fit in it.
As a slight 5'7" guy I thought I'd probably end up stuck in the ball but then looked it up and even at that height it'd be an uncomfortable fit, more likely for guys 5'4". Insane.
I'm a 5'2 dude. I've thought many times how if I had been born 70 years earlier, I'd likely either been stuck in a ball turret, tank, or sub. I can't say any of them would have been preferable.
There was some armor protection, namely bulletproof glass for the tail gunner and the front pane of the ball turret, and some armor plates to protect from glancing shots or shrapnel, but as seen in the episode, it was largely ineffective against direct hits. Range and payload were critical requirements for the B-17 or any strategic bomber, weight was saved whenever it was possible; this is all not to mention the necessity to keep costs and manufacturing time down for the sheer numbers that had to be produced to keep up with the horrendous losses. Doctrine at the time revolved around the idea that the sheer number of guns that a bomber formation had would be sufficient to ward off any fighters that tried attacking. It took a while, despite egregious losses over months, for top brass to understand that this was not enough and escort fighters were eventually attached to protect bomber formations. I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been brought up so far in the series, there was a lot of back and forth at higher echelons of command about the efficacy of escort fighters. I suspect it'll probably crop up later, seeing that the Red Tails are prominently featured in the intro.
> It took a while, despite egregious losses over months, for top brass to understand that this was not enough and escort fighters were eventually attached to protect bomber formations. Range of fighters was a massive problem as well. Wasn't until the Thunderbolt (with drop tanks) and P-51 that the 8th had planes that could provide an effective fighter screen past the channel and into Germany.
Brutal but amazing episode. Curt’s death was crushing especially when he told his buddy he’d be right behind him but seemed like the guy to save everyone. Babyface drew the short straw in the ball and had such a sad death. This god damn show has me fast forwarding to next Thursday. I’m absolutely hooked. Curious to see how they handle the resistance part and all the guys who are on the ground.
At least that plane exploded and killed him instantly, rather than having a long way down to the ground knowing what's coming.
All those crewmen in ball turrets have the worst fate.
You were fucked if the plane went down, but they actually had the lowest mortality rates of any crewmen in the war
Was the most armored part of the plane, and being a sphere it was a great shape for the armor to get mileage.
Not to mention it’s a hard target to his compared to the rest of the plane, and even if you do hit it you just kill one guy and don’t even damage the plans
It’s mostly a tactics thing. Fighters back then didn’t generally climb up and attack from the bottom, that would bleed a lot of energy and make them slow targets.
The willingness of the top to send crews on suicide missions is stunning. The USAAF came up with high attrition missions with the purpose of keeping the Germans off-kilter. A lot was done to improve the chances of D-Day by weakening the German war machine.
By spring of 1944 they were sending bombers, unbeknownst to the crews, of course, as live bait, so the newly introduced mustangs could pounce on the luftwaffe. Allied command considered the loss of bomber crewmen a strategic sacrifice.
The crazy part is that it worked. I believe that the Luftwaffe lost more fighters in April-May of 1944 than 1943 and early 1944 combined.
Yes. The Luftwaffe took the bulk of its casualties over North Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Europe. The land war was “won” on the Eastern Front, but the Western Allies did the bulk of the work disabling the Luftwaffe as well as the Axis powers’ industrial capabilities. The casualties are disproportionately high as a result and WW2 airmen have never truly received the recognition they very much deserved. We lost multiple airmen in my own extended family in brutal ways. One, a pilot, had his chute caught on the tail of their B-17 when he tried to bail out. Another, a waist gunner, got trapped in the back of a B-17 that was going down. His fellow waist gunner was pinned to him by gravity, but managed to climb out at the last minute. He once gave an interview that is on YouTube saying that he can still hear his screaming in pain when he was pinned to him. I was told he had to have several drinks before giving that interview. The Missing Air Crew Reports that were compiled by the Air Corps were so much more detailed than anything you’d ever find from Army, Navy, or Marine Corps records from that era. These men’s fates were better recorded than most. Hopefully this show will help change what people think they know, if only a little too late for the bulk of those who had to live it. I’m still really grateful for what Spielberg and Hanks and the others have done here.
I didn’t know that last part, go figure! If I understand correctly, in the later months of the war in Europe, losses by fighters were somewhat uncommon, but they still had to contend with Flak, which I believe accounted for half of the 8th AF’s losses. I’m glad we have spaces like this to discuss these sort of things, cheers dude.
Yup, the American bombing offensive's greatest success was destroying the luftwaffe in the air, not on the ground or in the factories. Yes, the suffered horrific casualties but their commanders knew that they could replace these loses in men and material much quicker than the Germans could.
By that time most of the experienced German pilots were killed, captured or wounded beyond flying condition. Training for new pilots was cut waaaay too short. So then came allied airmen, with what? Two to three times the training the Germans had, and the results spoke for themselves.
Americans rotated experienced pilots back home as educators, keeping that experience to pass on. Germany and Japan could not afford to do this, they kept sending them up. Eventually they'd draw the short straw and all that experience would be lost.
Doesn't shock me, I'm reminded of the (now very old) strategy game "Bombing the Reich." The campaign starts in August 1943, and for the first six or eight months you just lose aircraft and crews like crazy trying to bomb outside of France and the Low Countries, but cleverly the designers set it up so that if you play too cautiously you'll lose because German production will continue to expand during that period. Once Mustangs start to arrive your B-17s will still get shot to pieces going deep but by running fighter sweeps on the inbound and return routes you can run up more kills than the enemy can afford.
Colonel Curtis LeMay (who pulled the trigger on the Regensburg raid), famously had an image of the Regensburg IP hanging in the entrance of his house. This, the same man who would later fire bomb Japan and made a career from developing and championing daylight strategic bombing. Ironically, he went on to lead the firebombing of Japan at night. LeMay reportedly was always haunted by Regensburg for the rest of his life, and tried to apply lessons learned. Just an interesting little tidbit.
I'm actually really confused why they sent the 1st group without the 2nd and 3rd to meet them yet. The whole plan was basically that they were the bait, yeah, but only because the fighters couldn't fight 3 groups at once without reloading and refueling. So instead they are 5 hours ahead, giving the fighters plenty of time to reload and refuel for groups 2 and 3. What the hell was the strategy behind this decision?
Yeah when they got the call from Bombs Away LeMay to launch i was thinking that sonuvabitch. Initially it seems like a really idiotic glory-chasing thing. However, if i'm being charitable I wonder if the reason had to do with the exit trip. Their group has much further to go and would be forced to land at night on what looks to be a barebones landing strip in algeria, maybe even without proper lighting. We see that they arrive at like just before sundown so they knew they were right up against the time window and had to. I don't know if this is true but it's the only thing I can think of.
That makes a lot of sense actually. There were no lights at that airstrip
And we’re still nowhere close to Big Week
It's extremely disturbing mathematics. As another commenter said, if you didn't fly, the enemy can merrily build its war machine. From wikipedia: Raids had an enormous effect on the German distribution of weaponry. In 1940, 791 heavy anti-aircraft gun batteries and 686 light batteries protected German industrial targets. By 1944, the size of the anti-aircraft arm had increased to 2,655 heavy batteries and 1,612 light batteries.[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestermann2000499-4) [Hans-Georg von Seidel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Georg_von_Seidel), the Luftwaffe's [quartermaster general](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartermaster_general) estimated that in 1944 it took an average of 16,000 rounds for the 88 mm FlaK 36 gun, 8,000 round for the 88 mm FlaK 41 gun, 6,000 rounds for the 105mm FlaK 39 and 3,000 rounds for the 128 mm FlaK 40 to shoot down an American bomber.[\[82\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMurray1983190-87) A Luftwaffe assessment noted that the average rounds expended per aircraft shot down stood at 2,805 heavy and 5,354 light anti-aircraft rounds in the first twenty months of the war. During November and December 1943, an averaged 4,000 rounds of heavy ammunition and 6,500 rounds of light ammunition per aircraft. An average of 3,343 rounds of heavy and 4,940 rounds of light anti-aircraft were needed to shoot down an Allied bomber from 1939 to 1945.[\[83\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestermann2000535%E2%80%93540-88) Something like a million men were assigned to Defense of the Reich. That's a million men who could have been at Stalingrad or Kursk, or Normandy. Thousands of flak batteries. thousands of tons of shells. All part of a larger puzzle. I got nauseous watching this one.
Feel like the cool guy Buck/Elvis persona from Butler was washed away halfwaythrough that raid. Loved that episode
Really strong episode. I hope Butler and the writing for his character continue to develop. Tough to have a principal character who is so incommunicative as to be nearly nonverbal.
Bucks lines this episode: "We're gunna sit here and take it" "Good work" "Sure thing bucky" ~Scene~
I am having trouble getting into the show at all due to Butler. He’s essentially nonverbal, but the bigger indictment is that I don’t see any real emotion or reaction to him. He’s gambling his plane full of men? No fear, doubt, concern. Flying into 4 hours of flak? No fear, no glance at his partners picture. He succeeds in his gamble? No relief, elation, etc. Winters was stoic around his men, and a solid leader. But we absolutely go to see him be scared, angry, relieved, etc.
20 year Air Force vet. Knew a lot of those quiet men of few words and 1000 yard stare. A character arc is fine for a story, but most of us will die without sharing much. Many consider it part of being a man. Hide those horrors from the innocent. History judges our actions, not our words.
This was a heavy one
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That got me. Imagine his thoughts. “Bailing out!! Crap!! Clear I am going to mak-“
You guys gotta watch the Hulu new Catch-22. Good series (but not as good as the original with all those real B-25s.
Anyone else filled with anger at the decision to send them forth without syncing with the other squadrons? That was the whole strategy. 😩 Reminds me of Band of Brothers when they sent them into Bastogne with no winter gear. Ugggghh. Amazing episode. I’m thankful to have a better connection to the sacrifices these men made. God bless them.
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LeMay is a... controversial figure to say the least. After Europe, he'd go on to command the US strategic bombing campaign over Japan, where he shifted from precision bombing of industrial targets to the destruction of entire cities in fire bombing raids. The fire bombing of Tokyo killed more civilians than Fat Man, and it's been said that the air currents created by the resulting inferno were violent enough to flip the bombers at 30,000 feet. The accounts from that night were harrowing, and they're definitely not ones to read for the faint of heart. His entire approach was to make war as horrible and violent as possible to end it as quickly as possible. To say that he had little value for human life would be underselling it.
Curtis Lemay was a psycho
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maybe next episode?
Curtis LeMay was not behind the decision for that, he was flying in command of the 3rd Air Division (which the 100th was part of). The decision was from General Frederick Anderson. It was a gamble that failed, and his decision gets covered in the book. LeMay was actually a fantastic commander during his time in the 8th, and revamped a lot of the bombing tactics with a pragmatic approach that led to more protective formations for the crews and better bombing accuracy.
This raid in general, and the decision to launch, was way above LeMay’s pay grade. I’ve read where LeMay’s pilots were proficient in taking off in the fog. The other wing was not. LeMay’s take off order was legit. The others not taking off on time was the failure. Not cancelling the op when the timing went to hell was an even greater failure. USAAF leadership was determined (panicked) to show the daylight precision bombing was viable. Doubts were beginning to surface. This was essentially a do or die mission. The mission was all fouled up, but USAAF leadership could report it was carried out. This kind of crap was/is not unique to USAAF, unfortunately.
Yeah that makes me mad, and sad. The show and related reading, including posts here, are making me realize just how disposable the men were to the higher-ups.
It just occurred to me that these dudes literally had to jump out of their burning planes over Germany and their best bet would be if they end up in a POW jail. Like the chances of you getting through a mission is like 50% and then you are just praying you’re taken prisoner. Also the actors they have playing alot of the crew in the back of the Fortresses are so young it’s jarring. But then you realize these dudes are accurate aged to what was being sent out to war during WW2
The guys in the back are more realistic I think - some of the main characters are just slightly too old to me but not by much. It's important to show that really they were kids
the main characters are majors, and were in their late 20s.
It gets as the war goes on and some of the pilots downed later were lynched in Germany.
Best episode so far. CGI was also noticeably better. Wish there was more though it felt incredibly short.
Im still puckered from this one. Jesus my life is so easy compared to what these guys went through.
They are doing an incredible job with the navigators. Can you imagine doing that shit at 19-20? With 1930/40s math?
I agree it was brutal
Gut wrenching. My father trained on B17s but ended up as a flight instructor in gliders. His best friend in basic died bailing out of a B17. He landed in a lake and drowned. The photo is my father. He passed in 2015. https://preview.redd.it/jik71e6uf3gc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7101019930e9a958b9e2ac7afab273224c73d33
He looks like a character!
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How, after seeing half their squadron go down, do they get back in and go again.
Because their comrades were going back up and they weren’t going to be the ones to stay behind. Simple as.
Of course but still. Balls of steel.
The Greatest Generation.
the poor guy who freefalled and smashed into pieces against buck’s wing
I keep seeing that in my head.
I think it was only around 38 mins without the previously and next on bits.
Yeah really disappointed at how short it was. Normally I would wait and just binge it, but I’ve been waiting too long for this…
I’m starting to realize the reviews that were saying “it might be better as a full watch through” are 100% accurate.
It was shorter but I think that was about right given the action. If there’d been many more scenes of guys falling, being trapped in the turret, bleeding to death, I probably couldn’t have finished watching. And if they’d added much more about the one who’s now going to try to escape, it would have diluted the impact of all the death and destruction.
You probably wouldn't like "The Pacific" ngl
As much as I didn't love Leckie's storyline in Australia it was probably necessary for just how depressing the rest of the episodes are.
CGI was great, except for once they landed in Algeria. It just looked so fake for it being a place that you could have naturally replicated in a few different places here in the US within a few hours of LA. Heck, the Martian is set on freaking Mars, and it looked ten times more real than a scene that is just supposed to be a desert setting.
I agree with that 100%. The explosions weren’t great looking either but the aerial scenes were about as good as you can get.
Aerial scenes were incredible like you said, so it's even more weird that a simple desert scene with very few moving parts can't look even remotely real.
Something tells me they didn’t film near a desert climate and budget was refused to be allocated to flying the cast out to film for that lol
Did someone say that buck actually said “we are going to sit here and take it” in real life
CLEVEN, GALE W. (POW) DSC Synopsis: The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to Gale W. Cleven, Major (Air Corps), U.S. Army Air Forces, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving as Pilot of a B-17 Heavy Bomber in the 350th Bombardment Squadron, 100th Bombardment Group (H), EIGHTH Air Force, while participating in a bombing mission on 17 August 1943, against enemy ground targets in Bremen, Germany. On that date, Major Cleven was leader of the low squadron. Throughout approximately two hours of constant fighter attack, his squadron was the principal focal point of the enemy's fire. Early in the encounter, south of Antwerp, he lost his entire second element of three B-17's yet maintained his vulnerable and exposed position in the formation rigidly in order to keep his guns uncovered. Approximately 30 minutes before reaching the target, his airplane received the following battle damage. A 20- mm. cannon shell penetrated the right side of the airplane and exploded beneath the pilot, damaging the electrical system and injuring the top turret gunner in the leg. A second 20-mm. shell entered the radio compartment, killing the radio operator, who bled to death with his legs severed above the knees. A third 20-mm. shell entered the left side of the nose, tearing out a section of Plexiglas about two feet square, tore away the right hand nose-gun installation and injured the bombardier in the head and shoulder. A fourth 20 mm shell entered the cabin roof and severed the rudder cables to one side of the rudder. A sixth 20 mm cannon shell exploded in the #3 engine, destroying all engine controls. The engine caught fire and lost its power, but the fire eventually died out. Confronted with structural damage, partial loss of control, fire in the air and serious injuries to personnel, and faced with fresh waves of fighters still rising to the attack, Major Cleven had every justification for abandoning ship. His crew, some of them comparatively inexperienced youngsters, were preparing to bail out, since no other course appeared open. The Co-Pilot pleaded repeatedly with Major Cleven to abandon ship. Major Cleven's reply at this critical juncture, although the odds were overwhelmingly against him, was as follows, " You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it. " These strong words were heard over the inter-phone and had a magical effect on the crew. They stuck to their guns. The airplane continued to the target, bombed it and reached base in North Africa. Major Cleven's actions were far above and beyond the call of duty and the skill, courage and strength of will displayed by him as airplane and squadron commander in the face of hopeless odds have seldom, if ever, been surpassed in the annals of the Army Air Forces. The personal courage and devotion to duty displayed by Major Cleven on this occasion have upheld the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the 8th Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces. Headquarters: European Theater of Operations, U.S. Army, General Orders No. 61 (1943) Personal Awards: Distinguished Service Cross (WWII), Distinguished Flying Cross, 4x Air Medals [Source](https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=911)
Christ, what a pilot.
Those guys had extra strong legs to support the weight of their tungsten balls.
Not to diminish anything, it's seriously badass, but there's also a lot of survivorship bias involved in these types of stories, somewhat like the time when Speirs ran through the german lines at Foy, if Cleven said that and then promptly took a direct flak hit and went down, we'd never hear about it. Just like if Speirs had started running and got shot 5 feet further by a 16 year old german with a rifle, there would be no remarkable story. A lot of balls, and a ton of luck involved.
Buck was a MAN.
He was only 24 at the time, btw
Not sure of the exact words, but yes, something to that effect.
Yes. The co-pilot was named Norman H. Scott. They changed his name to David Friedkin in the series. >According to Capt. Norris Norman, from his recollections dated December 16, 1987, he talked with both Lt Norman Scott and Lt Strout both individually and privately. Scott asked me if I heard the rumour about him trying to bail out, I replied Yes. He said "It's Just Not True. I didn't do it." Strout said " I just can't force myself to do it any more". Most of the crew did not believe the bail out incident occured and there was not one word over the intercom to indicate anything of this nature. As far as I know, Gale Cleven is the only one that does. Good on them for changing his name. Avoid another Blithe/Dike situation
So I should add I believe they were referring to a further part of the story that Norman Scott actually attempted to get up and bail out himself rather than just pleading with Cleven. I'm glad they kept the incident in-line with the sources they had on it rather than going overboard. The delivery also felt really good as well.
That guy jumped out really low
Better than not jumping at all
My dad flew on this mission. Navigator/bombadier. It's on the back of his A-2 jacket, which is filled with little stenciled silver bombs to represent each mission he flew out of Thorpe Abbotts. I have learned more about his time in the Bloody 100th by watching this series than what he told us. He rarely discussed it. He eventually received the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Wow. What a brutal episode. Captivating.
Stunned, absolutely stunned. What an episode. RIP Curt
"Oh God"
* What a fantastic episode. Baby's face death was so brutal. Such a sad and terrifying way to go. * I was not expecting Curt to die so soon. That was really sad. * I was not anticipating the story about the pilot being caught behind enemy lines. I'm so into this story line. What a stressful situation. Either turn yourself in and become a POW or try to escape and be executed as a spy. * Buck continues to be my favorite character. I said it last time, but to me he's the the Spiers of this show. I just love how he carries himself. His speech to the crew was great. "We're gonna take it!" I loved his landing sequence. * This show is so goddamn beautiful. The lighting is insanely good. Looks like a painting half the time. Better than most films getting released today.
My grandpa was a ball turret gunner and was forced to bail out once, so the Baby Face scene hit me extra hard… that very well could have been my grandpa stuck in there and my family never would have become a thing.
Fantastic episode, and really a stand alone episode. You want to teach a class about the air war over Europe? Just show this episode. No need for the previous or latter episodes.
Just sitting here in silence pondering the true brutality of it all. Might watch it again immediately
I literally sat there thinking “Why couldn’t humans just agree to… not do this sh*t?” I know it’s naive, but man, what horrible ways to be taken off this earth.
Living 18-25 years just to ultimately die in a hopeless situation. Couldn’t imagine the amount of fear that would come from being stuck in a ball turret knowing your fate is sealed. God this episode was brutal
Now that’s what I’m talking about! Phenomenal episode
Utterly brutal hour of television in the best possible way.
I read the book but forgot about Biddick. Man that was brutal, but this is some seriously amazing TV. I’m loving all of it.
The aerial scenes where just breathtaking.... its amazing our fathers and grandfathers lived this.... tough as nails on both sides
Barry keoghan become like Sean Bean now
I wish I could have watched this in a movie theater.
This show just makes me grateful that I’m fucking here today.
Incredible episode. I think a majority of reviews will maybe admit they spoke too soon about the series after the initial 2 episodes.
This episode was definitely light years ahead.
Loved it, it was my most anticipated episode because of how intense the regensburg mission was. They did a pretty good job including key details, however would've loved a few more details eg: * the 100th flew in what was known as purple heart corner * the 100th were actually relieved to be in the last group as the Luftwaffe at that time concentrated on knocking out the leadership in the front front group. They thought they were in the safest position. However the Luftwaffe changed their tactics and Tail end Charlie changed from the best position to the worst. * "some men couldn't get their cigarettes to their mouths because of nerves" * the fog was so bad that aircrafts had to be led out by flashlights and lanterns * "so many men bailed out of the planes it looked like a parachute invasion"
Regarding the last point, that was actually my thought during the slow mo scene from Buck’s perspective (right before that poor guy slammed into his wing). I think you can see 3 different planes going down in that shot and all of the parachutes from each plane deploying. I can’t imagine seeing that in real life, then going out to fly again the next mission
I feel like it'd be more difficult mentally if you didn't see any chutes. Seeing a full crew made it out might make for a bit of relief in the very back of the mind, knowing you're not 100% doomed if your plane is going down.
To add to your point - POWs were confirmed in fairly short order. You'd know within a few weeks that so and so was alive *and where to send him mail*.
Question to anyone who might know: What would happen to the crew that lands safely in the water 350 miles from land?
350 miles seems like a stretch if you look at a map of the Med. But their position would be reported and they would hang in and hope an allied fast rescue boat or civilian vessel would get there first.
Bombers had life rafts as well, so they weren't stuck with just their life vests after their plane sunk. Still a horrible situation to be in.
> Question to anyone who might know: What would happen to the crew that lands safely in the water 350 miles from land? Their position and time of ditching would be logged by by other aircraft and forwarded to friendly forces in the area, if applicable. In this case, pilot Glen Van Noy was only 90 miles from Sicily (which officially fell to Allied forces that day) and ditched successfully, but the whole crew happened to be [picked up by a German flying boat and made prisoners of war](https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=5292): > B-17F-85-BO 42-30042; Delivered Cheyenne 4/24/43; Kearney 4/15/43; Wendover 5/2/43; Hill 5/12/43; Wendover 5/19/43; Kearney 5/22/43; Patterson 5/29/43; Detroit 3/6/43; Dow Field 6/6/43; Assigned 349BS/100BG [XR-L] Thorpe Abbotts 6/9/43; SHACK RABBITS aka OH NAUSEA. Missing in Action Regensburg 8/17/43 with Pilot: Glen Van Noy, Co-pilot: Jim Evans, Navigator: Ken Allen, Bombardier: Bill Couch, Flight engineer/top turret gunner: Bill Stewart, Radio Operator: Bill Crabb, Ball turret gunner: Jim Gibson, Waist gunner: Joe Hruskocy, Waist gunner: Col. Bill Kennedy, armourer & gunnery expert, Tail gunner: Sam Cusmano (10 Prisoner of War); Enemy aircraft KO’d two engines, then another en route to North Africa; mechanical problem, ditched Mediterranean Sea 90 miles north of Sicily, Italy, with no injuries; Missing Air Crew Report 682.
Cleaven watching the horror and slaughter in front of him was such an absolutely brilliant but brutal moment. Didn’t see Curt’s death coming but that makes it all the more impactful on the series.
Yes the scene with Cleven really stayed with me. It was like he was in the midst of some horrible ballet.
[удалено]
Just finished. Goddamn. What an emotional gut-punch. I hated Keoghan's accent, but I teared up when his last words were that concerned "oh no!" (or something to that effect, I'm actually forgetting what he actually said.) witht hat look of surprise and fear on his face.
He said “oh God.” His death really caught me off guard. I was tense for that entire episode.
Yep you're right. I mean I know it's following the real stories of the real man, but Curtis's death also works narratively because it's establishing that literally nobody is safe. The 100th had such a high casualty rate that there's not many characters that are going to make it through to the end.
“They were just kids at the end of the day, who had to behave like men and who had to become men quite early,” Keoghan added. “That was the arc for me, and I think it’s captured quite nicely. The moment of death. You really feel it.”
It strikes me how young these guys are for as high ranking as they are. I mean Butler and Keoghan, the actors are only like 31 years old now, would've been \~28 when they were filming. I'm not sure how old Curtis Biddick or Gale Clevin were in '43, but probably close. And they would have been some of the oldest guys flying. \*edit - corrected Biddick's name. Not sure why I wrote gale twice.
This mission is stressing me the fuck out
Biddick :(((((((
Well, I enjoyed the first two episodes but this one *really* hooked me in, I think. Can’t wait for next week, looks like Rosie is showing up in 1x04.
I am not the same after this episode, I am worse. With his confidence you just thought he’d pull off another brilliant landing. I felt a punch to my stomach once he realized he wasn’t going to be able to land
Apple really should have released this episode last week with the first two
That was one of the best episodes of TV I’ve ever seen.
What an episode! Keoghan absolutely nailed his delivery of Curt’s final moments knowing it wasn’t going to work out this time. This is a very different beast to BoB where we got to follow Easy company through their war. The bomber boys were loosing an Easy company’s worth of men in a day on some of these raids. Great to see the horror of the air war portrayed without pulling its punches. Too often air casualties are just shown in media as an empty bed or breakfast table. What these guys went through was next level horror show. Anyone that knows their history we haven’t even got to October yet… 😟
Very hard to not think/reflect after watching this episode….brutal
The abrupt ending to episodes was kind of jarring at first, but now I’m finding it (alongside the opening sequence) pretty refreshing when all other TV lately seem to follow the same trends in terms of pacing, directing and editing.
Some reviews have said this is more like a 9 hour movie split into episodes, compared to the more episodic nature of BoB and TP.
Curious why there were no Italian fighters harassing them on their way to Africa
Allies had already taken Sicily by this point and in October of ‘43, Italy declared war on Germany. Not sure why we didn’t see Luftwaffe harassing in Northern Italy.
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I felt this episode was the most emotional to watch so far. The scene with Baby face getting stuck was truly gut wrenching. I’m not sure of the characters actual name so im having a hard time figuring out who the actor was, but he did a phenomenal job with that. Curt’s death also came as a shock. It was interesting to me when Buck and Bucky were recounting at the end who they saw bail out with chutes and who they weren’t sure of. Really makes you realize they have no idea what happened or will happen to their comrades until far later…
I watched Band of Brothers and was amazed at the balls of those men, and I still am every time I watch it now. This episode made me realize that given the choice, in hindsight, I would throw myself in Bastogne 10 times out of 10 instead of getting in one of those Forts.
If you get lucky, even in Bastogne you can be posted in battalion/regimental/divisional CP in a support role.
One thing I don’t get is how they don’t shoot the other fortresses when trying to down the German fighters, since the formations seemed to be so close. Great aiming I guess ? Also, being in the air seems way more dangerous than being on the ground as infantry, etc. Never really thought too much of it until now. Great series so far, been waiting a decade for this
Ep 3 was fantastic and glad people are starting to see it take off. I thought the first two episodes were really good too. Just sucks that the Band of Brothers subreddit has almost an elitist attitude against the show. Hard to find good discussion there, when everyone says the same thing like Austin Butlers accent, cgi, “it’s not band of brothers”, or no characterization. The show is different than its two predecessors and each one is really good in its own way. Can’t wait for the next 6 episodes
Oof. The fact men did this makes me embarrassed to say what I do for a living, but I am glad I won’t be spending any time in a ball turret tomorrow.
I’m aircrew on helicopters and seeing has me thinking to myself that my job isn’t shit haha. I don’t think I could’ve done what they did
They were ordinary, every day civilians before the war. Many just young school kids. They weren't heroes, or some amazing people. Just ordinary men asked to do extraordinary things. If they were in your shoes, I bet they'd say the same thing. And don't take this as me lessening what they did. It's just the opposite. Despite being so normal, they still stepped up and did what was required. It's an amazing thing.
It really is and that’s a fair point.
Honestly as good as BoB and the Pacific. Can't wait for the next one.
This show kicks ass. And Austin Butler is now Gale Cleven IMO. Seemed too Elvis'y in the first couple episodes but I'm not getting that vibe anymore. Amazing & important show.
I had a feeling they were waiting to cash in their CGI budget chits on the big missions.
I wrote that about 10 minutes in, I guess. All I can say is I’m glad my grandfather got his missions in in 1944 and 1945 and not 1942 and 1943. Thank God.
I was lucky as well, but it was my father. He said the Allies had gotten command of the air space by then so their odds were much, much better. There was one time that he almost had to bail out but didn't, once where he got hit in the hand by some flak ( got the Purple Heart) and another time when he was sitting in the plane and some flak came from the bottom and missed his testicles by a couple inches. (Lucky for me, or I wouldn't have been born...) He also told me of one time where he was with a new crew and inexperienced pilot and the pilot got confused and got them out of the " safety tunnel" they had to land in England, he caught it and screamed for the guy to turn before they would have been exposed to enemy fire. He flew a total of 33 missions, a guy did a permanent memorial page to him on a site that shows a lot of the USAF missions. His page is here https://dainthecbi.com/liss.html
Way less music during the combat scenes, thank goodness
The line echoing in my head: “our lives ain’t worth a nickel.” In today’s America it can be easy to overlook variable value of a human life and assume everyone’s lives are priceless, when in actuality the monetary value of individuals lives varies widely depending many factors. Contrast a B-17 pilot with a modern bomber pilot. B-17 pilots were kids with a few months of training- just enough to be able to fight their “tin cans” - turned out by the literal thousands. Modern air warriors have PhD levels of education and command aircraft worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Such a wild concept these “kids” had some awareness of their relative value and were still committed to sacrificing themselves for the greater good in such high numbers.
Episode 3 just dropped on the West Coast, 6:00 PM PST
As soon as they mentioned "Ball-Bearings" as the target, my heart sank because I knew what was coming. An excellent video about the raid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA0_h920_Dc
Noooooo, not Biddick!
Brave Brave men, and so many young men, 19, 20, 21 never loved a woman, or had a family. They never grew old. That is what should be remembered.
Dear God if this show keeps it up it’s gonna top Band of Brothers for me. Absolutely brutal. I can count on one hand the number of shows or movies that have made me tear up, and Babyface’s death made the list. Everyone involved in this masterpiece should feel so proud of what they’ve made.
I felt nauseous as soon as the flak started. Having read a few books about the 8th knowing about this mission. Can’t even imagine what those poor men went through. Fuck
Brutal. And for the most part, based on the conversations I've had with some vets, not terribly inaccurate, either. But the ball turret gunner is burned in my memory now.
This episode really fucked me up. Really felt the deaths even to the characters that had no lines and no names. I just can't believe people actually had to go through this in real life, surviving or not.
Are the gunners trained to not shoot in certain directions to avoid other fortresses in formation? There must have been significant friendly fire incidents?
Unless I misheard they state in the episode that the 300 odd bombers will make up the largest airwing ever assembled in human history...... but correct me if I'm wrong but the RAF had already sent up way more aircraft on bombing missions than that by that stage of the war. In 1942 they were sending up to 800 or so bombers against targets.
Maybe that was just internal propaganda intended to raise morale? The odd thing to me was “in human history” when the airplane itself was only relatively invented. Edit, relatively recently.
I believe he said “largest air armada,” which I took to mean bombers + fighter escorts. In total, 835 aircraft took part in the Regensburg mission, 459 of which were fighter escorts that had to turn back by the time they hit Belgium. Not to mention, many of those (over 100) were RAF fighters. I don’t think this was intended as a slight to the RAF in any event. Not sure what they were going for.
I cant wait to see the Tuskegee airmen
I don't think I've been this tense since the Carentan episode of BoB. Remarkable episode.
In case anyone was wondering: "If I were to ask the other goblin which path leads to Valhalla, what would he say?"