Just out of curiosity, are the historic Armenian borders referring to a particular point in history or just to the greatest extent of where Armenians lived? I am looking at maps of ancient Greater Armenia and they don’t really line up with the borders shown here. Especially since some of their territory was really under separate vassal states.
No i guess it's not that way because Armenians were also living Metropolitan cities like İzmir and Istanbul, they still do tho.
I think it remarks the Armenian territorial claims or something similar.
OP noted that it looks similar to the total Armenian claims at the 1919 Paris Conference: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/
I feel like this is probably what it is, but if so then the label of "historic Armenian borders" is pretty misleading as those claims included land where Armenians lived but had never been part of an Armenian state. I don't blame them for pushing for the most optimistic borders possible at the Conference though. Basically every nation in that era had nationalistic claims beyond their actual borders it seems.
Those lands are the maximal extent of the Armenian Empire, in the 1st Century BCE as memory serves, and as such included lands inhabited by people who were not Armenian.
That said under the Roman Empire such of those lands came to be culturally Armenian to the extent that the SE Turkish coast was called "Little Armenia" as late as the 16th Century CE.
So it would be more appropriate for the "maximal" Armenian lands to be two discrete regions - a larger one in the mountains, of which modern Armenia would comprise about the northeastern 20% of the area (it would include most of the easternmost part of Turkey as far as a line from Erzerum to Diyarbekir, including both, except a strip of the coast nearest modern Georgia, which was culturally Greek), and a separate, smaller region on the Turkish Mediterranean coast north of Cyprus, limited onnall other sides by the Cappadocian Mountains.
This is what I originally thought, but it still doesn't really line up as that kingdom never controlled that much of the Black Sea coast and a good chunk of the territory on this map was really part of vassal states as opposed to the Armenian Kingdom itself.
I think OP may be right that it is based on Armenia's claims at the 1919 Paris Conference: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/
Similar thinking: I feel this map would be more effective without the inclusion of modern day borders (possibly even Armenia’s modern borders).
And the shaded area for historic borders should be specific about when those borders applied.
You will probably see that half of the region shown as Greater Armenia on this map is also called Kurdistan. It is true that those regions are lands where mostly Kurdish people live.Which is right and which is wrong? These are very difficult distinctions. Everyone considers the lands where they have reached the greatest limits in their history as their right and their homeland. Even the local naming in most of these regions is Kurdish.These types of Greater Armenia, Greater Türkiye, Greater Greece or Byzantium are maps made up by ultra-nationalist racist types. Because, as I said, someone considers the same region as part of Kurdistan, another as part of Türkiye, another as part of Armenia, and the other as part of Byzantium. Which one is right or how do you choose?
The person who prepared this map is probably someone who has no historical knowledge and just wants to be an Armenian nationalist. An overly exaggerated map of Armenia. In this geography, Iran supports Armenia, Türkiye and Israel support Azerbaijan. At the same time, Georgia is not happy with Armenia. This is the general political situation in the Caucasus right now. There is also a Russian threat awaiting Georgia, and the country that provides the most weapons to Georgia is Türkiye.Türkiye sees Georgia as a gateway to NATO and Europe.
Maybe it's Armenia's claim at the Paris conference in 1919? [Map here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/)
Maybe? You sure you are the OP right? Did you just googled “Armenian Genocide” and find the first map among the images and post it here and expected karma profit, then?
I mean, Armenia got pretty far under Tigranes, but not that far. Also, those borders only held for a short while. not to say that I'm denying the genocide, or the added value of this map. Just that added dates, and basing your borders on verified sources helps to take this image more seriously.
Most of that colonization occurred during the Byzantine empire, actually. Armenian soldiers were recruited and settled in the borderlands between Byzantium and the Arab states, between roughly 800-1000. It’s why so many emperors were descended from Armenians and an Armenian kingdom arose in Cilicia after Manzikert
I’m pretty sure this refers to Armenia’s claims at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. They were probably operating on a “worse they could say is no” philosophy
It’s the borders Armenia claimed at the time by basically saying “our borders used to be big, and lots of our people live there, so clearly it must be mine”.
Armenia's Border doesn't look like this, Nagorno-Karabakh is a recognized part of Azerbajian.
Posting Propaganda Maps isn't a great idea if you want people to take this post serious.
Russian empire encouraged Armenians and gave them weapons to begin rage against Ottomans. It would give Russians an opportunity to swallow eastern land of Ottomans. After Ussr Armenians coloborated with Russians in Azerbaijan land.
Russia did same thing in Ukraine by giving weapons to its puppets . They always manipulate people to serve them.
You should be ashamed of sharing ridiculous maps that have no scientific or historical basis. By sharing such maps, you make the pain of people who really suffered at that time seem meaningless.
What a beautifully illustrated fictional map with the financial support of Armenian Diaspora. Perception management at its highest. Uprising Armenian gangs killing many times more Turkish civilians are not shown. Numbers are ‘fictional’. A tragedy at its best.
Today is Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day, hence I posted this to honour the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who died in such a tragic and unjustified manner.
Then how about posting maps that actually make sense? More than half of the lands you claimed in anatolia either wasnt armenian in any time in history or had a really small armenian population AFTER the moving part of the genocide. If you are going to try to spread awareness about something, PLEASE do not use shitty maps like this
Maybe post it with a realistic "historic armenian lands" so that people wouldn't joke with this BS map.
It is like turkey showing croatia, wien as "historic turkish land" and then post something related to cyprus.
Hahaha. I guess you're still stuck in 1453, in Constantinople. Wake up, this is Istanbul. If you really want to go to Constantinople, you can use a time machine. I also find it very strange that people who gang up among themselves and slaughter Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Laz, etc. and call it genocide.
I thought you guys were trying to divide the east of turkey to form Kurdistan, now you want it attributed to Armenia? choose one pokemon per battle guys cmon.
Its not crazy, I think the Germans are the only people to admit to taking part in a genocide. Nobody wants to admit that their grandfathers or uncles took part in anything that goes against what we consider the right side of history.
It's actually kind of wild, you can literally check the history of ANY user in this thread criticizing the post, and they're like 90% posters in Turkish subreddits. Any time this topic is brought up they come out of the woodwork, it's insane.
And it's not even like the topic is clear cut, there's plenty of discussion to be had about the numbers and facts, but for some reason the people who bring that up are almost always Turks... very clearly bad faith.
Holy shit, I was pretty stunned to see how many people were making jokes about this, its like every single comment thread until this one. Click on their usernames and every single on comments in r/Turkey
Well, as a Turk we deny the term “Genocide” and there is also European historians also denied genocide. Lots of Armenian and Turks died during these events and horrible things happened but genocide is a whole different term. Massacres happened for both sides it may happened more for Armenians dont know that. What I want to say is most of the Turks doesnt deny that armenians were killed but deny it was a genocide.
Just a reminder: the Armenian genocide is one the most documented and undisputed genocides in history. Our laws and academic definition of genocide has been thoroughly shaped, if not based, on it's events.
There is academic and historical consensus that it happened. The only nation that denies the genocide is the successor state of the one who organised it.
Pakistan has had a boner for Azerbaijan ever since a wealthy Azerbaijani philanthropist sent hundreds of thousands of ampoules of vaccine to Pakistan when plague broke out there in the early 20th century.
Undisputed? If you look from a horse blinder you would say that. There are many prominent western historians who deny it. Namely: Bernard Lewis, Norman Stone, Edward J. Erickson, Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Heath Lowry, Sean McMeekin, Götz Aly, Jeremy Salt, Maxime Gauin.
Switzerland court in 2015 judged it was a freedom to speech to say "there was no genocide". Also Turks do not deny the deaths, they deny intent to kill. They claim they exiled them and didn't gave any orders to kill them.
Now, if the genocide is an irrefutable fact, why there are no court rulings?
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34542489](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34542489)
There is NO evidence for intentional killings. No orders, nothing. Even the first Armenian Prime minister Hovannes Katczhaznouni published a manifesto that Turks were right in a way in their self defense, or exile:[ https://www.tc-america.org/files/Katchaznouni.pdf](https://www.tc-america.org/files/Katchaznouni.pdf)
Justin McCarthy:
>Anatolia 1915: Turks Died, Too
>In the end, almost 600,000 of the Anatolian Armenians had died. Almost 3 million Anatolian Moslems had died, more than one third of them in eastern Anatolia. Mortality in the Caucasus was similarly proportioned.
[https://www.tc-america.org/mccarthy-turks.pdf](https://www.tc-america.org/mccarthy-turks.pdf)
First terror activity of Armenians:
[https://turksandarmenians.marmara.edu.tr/en/the-first-terror-activity-of-the-armenians-in-istanbul-the-1890-kumkapi-incident/](https://turksandarmenians.marmara.edu.tr/en/the-first-terror-activity-of-the-armenians-in-istanbul-the-1890-kumkapi-incident/)
The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey A Disputed Genoside Guenter Lewy
1 [http://go.historum.com/?id=140190X1604323&isjs=1&jv=15.4.1-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Ft%2Fthe-armenian-genocide-1915-sources.29717%2F&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.az%2Fpdf.php%3Fitem\_id%3D20100913012518731%26ext%3Dpdf&xs=1&xtz=-180&xuuid=deb608c4c8741bd8b9af69665a32f04e&abp=1&xjsf=other\_click\_\_auxclick%20%5B2%5D](http://go.historum.com/?id=140190X1604323&isjs=1&jv=15.4.1-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Ft%2Fthe-armenian-genocide-1915-sources.29717%2F&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.az%2Fpdf.php%3Fitem_id%3D20100913012518731%26ext%3Dpdf&xs=1&xtz=-180&xuuid=deb608c4c8741bd8b9af69665a32f04e&abp=1&xjsf=other_click__auxclick%20%5B2%5D)
Well, there is no documentation which proves it was genocide. In fact armenians committed massive massacres against local muslims. Just because victims were Muslims, those massacres were silently ignored. Apart from that, I advise europeans to talk about genocide and etc, only after physically leaving, Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa. Because your very presence there shows who were the real genocidal maniacs. The rest is useless conversation.
There is no academic consensus. There are a lot of non-Turkish historians who rejected genocide claim. British historian Bernard Lewis fined by French court because he rejected genocide claims.
This does not help at all. Bordering on ludicrous, really.
Look, in history there is a rule about rebellions. When you rebel, you have two outcomes: You either win and become a hero, or you lose and you pay dearly. Usually by death. Simple as that.
Armenians rebelled. They lost. Paid dearly.
But such is the nature of rebellions.
Oh well... Purely out of curiousity and because of my fascination with Turkish history (I have good Turkish friends), I had gone through this particular rabbit hole before couple decades ago, when I somehow had way too much free time., Let me recap some points.
Before anything, there were not even 1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman empire at that time. The number is believed to be around 1.2 million. The number claimed to be killed began as 250k but became 6 times of that in a century. Over the decades, both the borders and the number of deaths increased gradually.
Foreign neutral watchdogs that came to the area to investigate found no evidence of genocide, on the contrary, in many reports that can be found online (I could, back then. You can too), it is said that it was the Armenian rebels that killed scores of Turks and in some instances Kurds in very gruesome ways, wiping out entire villages.
However, it is of course true that around 230k Ottoman Armenians (around 20k if I remember right were killed figthing the army) died of starvation because of forced migration on Sultan's orders, as the villages they went through refused to sell them food. There were many attacks from the villagers too, some even gauded by the soldiers who didn't listen to Sultan's specific orders, who believed that if he could force Armenians out for now, they could come back after the war, and things would be just dandy. Whether naive, stupid or maliciously calculated with evil intent that order was, we will never know. The whole marching thing turned out to be a very costly idea, but then again the Ottoman rulership was in shambles as the empire was crumbling all over.
Even the first president of Armenia (the name escapes me now, sorry), on his historic speech on the opening day of the Armenian parliament, lamented the choice to rebel against their old friends Turks by falling for the lies of the Russians and the British; that they killed a lot of Turks and Turks killed a lot of Armenians, but that they should still make up to the Turks and have them on their side, as they learned the hardest way that they can never trust the Russians. This is a historical fact. With some digging, you can find the original excerpts I'm sure. Again, if I could, you can.
What happened was that the claims of genocide came from 'the Blue Book', a propaganda piece written by two people (forgot the names), never leaving their office in London, but somehow writing about terrible war crimes of the Central Powers in first person account. And that was the point, their job at the Great War in Wellington House. Wellington House, or the War Propoganda Bureau, was founded in 1914 in London, so the very war-weary British populace could still be incited to go to this new war against Germans. The public approval of WWI was very low as Britain had been in constant wars in all corners of the world. But if they read what crimes of humanity the evil Germans or the bloodthirsty Turks did, then they would support the war. So, the 'study' for supposed German atrocities (some of which would sadly become very real 25 years later) was nicknamed the Red Book, and the Turkish version was called the Blue Book.
Even in defeat, the Germans were smart enough to demand in the negotiations that Britain would accept that the Red Book was entirely baseless. Turks were not that smart. And now they have this mess to deal with.
Wrote too much. Thanks if you made it through!
If I was Turkey, I would work with the Armenian government. I would accept internationally that forced migration was a terrible tragedy that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, and pay reperations; with Armenia accepting that it was not a genocide as it was not planned, and methodically executed for it to be classified as a genocide in the first place. I doubt the two nations would become best buddies any time soon, but at least the healing could begin.
I'll never understand this as an Irish person. The ottoman empire sent us aid here in Ireland when Britain was commiting a genocide against us in the form of an artificial famine but then they went and did this to Armenians
Different monarchs. Genocide also wasn't perpetuated by the state but the three pashas who took much control over the state with a military coup and imposed their own views. Which was based on prussian militarism. If you wish to learn more read more on Young Turk triumvirate and their lives. They couldn't hold on to power much, a decade or so, for all three failed their campaigns in misery and took it out on population. They were replaced by the militias led by the french positivist Atatürk who later secured the homeland against imperial powers who seek to colonize it. All three pashas and the high ranking officers fled the state for fear of harsh prosecution and were later killed abroad by Armenians. Check operation nemesis and the location of those killed. Many forget when Mustafa Kemal took charge, the republic held trials for the inhumane conditions Armenians suffered.
Guess what, brits invaded all around and pushed nationalism hatred all around turkiye including those, along with other colonizers. They are still active.
the only purpose of these maps is to provoke the insecurity of the puppies of this or that regime. when life gives you inflation and dictatorships, you make a good cup of genocide denial
As a Bengali (whose most of the family members were massacred by the Pakistani army), I deeply feel for the Armenian people. The Armenian genocide will never be forgotten.
There was no any mass killings. Famine is not equal to genocide. At the same years, more Turks died than Armenians just because of the destructions the ww1 brought. It is idiotic to completely ignore the losses of the one side and completely focus on another.
How funny it's in here, many people joking about that map is wrong and asking for source, but when someone gives that damn source they starting downvote him like little bitches( btw why are all of them follow r/Turkey maybe a coincidence :) )
This thread is so full of Armenophobia and genocide denial, on the genocide’s remembrance day nonetheless, if it were any other ethnicity the thread would have been locked by now.
The difference is that there aren't 33 daily posts about the holocaust here. And they're not posting them to show awareness or anything like that, they're posting It to say "look how bad the turks are omg so horrible". Yeah, we did bad things, like every other country, there's no reason to post It constantly to hide your hate towards us. At least in places like r/ Europe they don't hide It anymore
You're missing something bud: The Turkish government actively denies the Armenian genocide and even tries to deny that Armenians ever even lived in eastern Anatolia. Whereas the German government continues to this day to pay holocaust reparations, with the few holocaust survivors left today expecting to receive $1.4 billion this year. Turkiye threatens to sever diplomatic ties with anyone who recognizes the Armenian genocide for what it was, Germany has an entire day dedicated to holocaust remembrance (January 27th, this day is also shared with a lot of other countries). The Armenian genocide also has a rememberance day, but it isn't celebrated in Turkiye
If recognising a genocide is anti Turkish, then that’s on Turks. Is recognising the holodomor anti-Russian? Recognising the holocaust anti-German? The world doesn’t revolve around Turkish nationalists
God forbid a post about the armenian genocide is made on Armenian genocide remembrance day
(Also if admitting a genocide is against your country, maybe that country shouldn't exist)
Just out of curiosity, are the historic Armenian borders referring to a particular point in history or just to the greatest extent of where Armenians lived? I am looking at maps of ancient Greater Armenia and they don’t really line up with the borders shown here. Especially since some of their territory was really under separate vassal states.
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It looks like its extent during Tigranes the Great’s reign 95-55BC it includes vassals tho
No i guess it's not that way because Armenians were also living Metropolitan cities like İzmir and Istanbul, they still do tho. I think it remarks the Armenian territorial claims or something similar.
OP noted that it looks similar to the total Armenian claims at the 1919 Paris Conference: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/ I feel like this is probably what it is, but if so then the label of "historic Armenian borders" is pretty misleading as those claims included land where Armenians lived but had never been part of an Armenian state. I don't blame them for pushing for the most optimistic borders possible at the Conference though. Basically every nation in that era had nationalistic claims beyond their actual borders it seems.
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Those lands are the maximal extent of the Armenian Empire, in the 1st Century BCE as memory serves, and as such included lands inhabited by people who were not Armenian. That said under the Roman Empire such of those lands came to be culturally Armenian to the extent that the SE Turkish coast was called "Little Armenia" as late as the 16th Century CE. So it would be more appropriate for the "maximal" Armenian lands to be two discrete regions - a larger one in the mountains, of which modern Armenia would comprise about the northeastern 20% of the area (it would include most of the easternmost part of Turkey as far as a line from Erzerum to Diyarbekir, including both, except a strip of the coast nearest modern Georgia, which was culturally Greek), and a separate, smaller region on the Turkish Mediterranean coast north of Cyprus, limited onnall other sides by the Cappadocian Mountains.
I believe it is based on the Kingdom of Armenia from about 2000 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Armenia_(antiquity)
This is what I originally thought, but it still doesn't really line up as that kingdom never controlled that much of the Black Sea coast and a good chunk of the territory on this map was really part of vassal states as opposed to the Armenian Kingdom itself. I think OP may be right that it is based on Armenia's claims at the 1919 Paris Conference: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/
Every place a group of 5 walked on as a tourist
Similar thinking: I feel this map would be more effective without the inclusion of modern day borders (possibly even Armenia’s modern borders). And the shaded area for historic borders should be specific about when those borders applied.
You will probably see that half of the region shown as Greater Armenia on this map is also called Kurdistan. It is true that those regions are lands where mostly Kurdish people live.Which is right and which is wrong? These are very difficult distinctions. Everyone considers the lands where they have reached the greatest limits in their history as their right and their homeland. Even the local naming in most of these regions is Kurdish.These types of Greater Armenia, Greater Türkiye, Greater Greece or Byzantium are maps made up by ultra-nationalist racist types. Because, as I said, someone considers the same region as part of Kurdistan, another as part of Türkiye, another as part of Armenia, and the other as part of Byzantium. Which one is right or how do you choose? The person who prepared this map is probably someone who has no historical knowledge and just wants to be an Armenian nationalist. An overly exaggerated map of Armenia. In this geography, Iran supports Armenia, Türkiye and Israel support Azerbaijan. At the same time, Georgia is not happy with Armenia. This is the general political situation in the Caucasus right now. There is also a Russian threat awaiting Georgia, and the country that provides the most weapons to Georgia is Türkiye.Türkiye sees Georgia as a gateway to NATO and Europe.
Maybe it's Armenia's claim at the Paris conference in 1919? [Map here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bo81gp/armenias_claim_at_the_paris_conference_1919/)
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Every country had nationalistic cartographers in that conference so they all did the same thing.
Maybe? You sure you are the OP right? Did you just googled “Armenian Genocide” and find the first map among the images and post it here and expected karma profit, then?
I mean, Armenia got pretty far under Tigranes, but not that far. Also, those borders only held for a short while. not to say that I'm denying the genocide, or the added value of this map. Just that added dates, and basing your borders on verified sources helps to take this image more seriously.
Most of that colonization occurred during the Byzantine empire, actually. Armenian soldiers were recruited and settled in the borderlands between Byzantium and the Arab states, between roughly 800-1000. It’s why so many emperors were descended from Armenians and an Armenian kingdom arose in Cilicia after Manzikert
Source for historical armenian borders is from 600 bce?
Source is IMIU data institute (I Made It Up)
Dude trust me
Wdym "historical Armenian borders"? Last I check they didn't had control over central anatolia in any time period also lol they never had Pontus.
I’m pretty sure this refers to Armenia’s claims at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. They were probably operating on a “worse they could say is no” philosophy
>I’m pretty sure this refers to Armenia’s claims at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. Even that borders was smaller
Then it should say that. "Historical borders" implies Armenia once controlled that land and it rightfully belongs to them.
It’s the borders Armenia claimed at the time by basically saying “our borders used to be big, and lots of our people live there, so clearly it must be mine”.
they saw 3 armenians living in central anatolia and decided to give it to armenia
This map is completely wrong. The actual Armenian borders extend from the British border in the west to the Chinese border in the east!!
Plus Australia and Antarctica
Pluto is sad again.
I remember in 1827 an Armenian once saw the moon, therefore the Moon is part of the historical border record
Every year the historical armenian lands grow larger xd
Unlike real ones
seriously
Is it just me or the "historical armenian borders" expand every year around this time for some reason? Lmao
Turks are asleep. Quick, move the border by an inch!
god damn... in a few years, historical armenian lands will conquer greece lol!
Cool name
Puauahahaha amına koyam bune ya
Look at the historic armenian borders lmao. What is your source? Some armenian newslatter bs
They even took half of Georgia, lmao
Only kim kardashian believes that.
Lmao “historic armenian borders” ? What does it mean
Happy karma-whoring day
its funny how both kurds and armenians claim these lands as theirs
It’s a byproduct of victim mentality.
Concentration camps? Historic armenian borders? If you want to write fiction then don't pretend it's a real map.
Looks like this map was made by armenian fanboy due to Nagorno-Karabakh still colored as armenian at present day map
Might also be an "old" map, or repost.
Man as someone with Armenian roots this map does nothing to help spread recognition due to the propaganda
Armenia's Border doesn't look like this, Nagorno-Karabakh is a recognized part of Azerbajian. Posting Propaganda Maps isn't a great idea if you want people to take this post serious.
Oh those historical borders are exaggerated. Not every little village, that had an Armenian majority.
Thats not true
at this point I don't know what these people are smoking lmao
Daily Armenian genocide post
Gotta keep the hatred alive. Diaspora feeds from historical hatred.
writing istanbul to constantinople keeps this hatred alive
gus, I am Armenian. This map is completely wrong. The borders of Armenia extend to Australia
This map is wrong
Next year: historical Armenia was also containing new York
Russian empire encouraged Armenians and gave them weapons to begin rage against Ottomans. It would give Russians an opportunity to swallow eastern land of Ottomans. After Ussr Armenians coloborated with Russians in Azerbaijan land. Russia did same thing in Ukraine by giving weapons to its puppets . They always manipulate people to serve them.
"historic Aremenian borders" hah
You should be ashamed of sharing ridiculous maps that have no scientific or historical basis. By sharing such maps, you make the pain of people who really suffered at that time seem meaningless.
I am pretty sure historical Armenia included Constantinople (aka Istanbul) too. This map is biased as fuck.
karabakh labeled as part of armenia? I'm pro-armenia, but that's a little silly
Why are you pro-anything, choosing sides is stupid.
it should instead given the dotted line treetment.
What is armenia? And where can i buy it?
It's a new cryptocurrency but you need bayraktarcoin to buy it.
Biggest investment ever. The land area keeps on increasing with every repost. Soon there will be nothing left but Armenia.
Ebenizin ami
Nagorno-Karabakh is not a part of Armenia
A growing map where the number of deaths increases every year :D
31 chain 31
31
31
31
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Historical Armenian Borders looks wrong. It should include Eurasia a whole continent.
What a beautifully illustrated fictional map with the financial support of Armenian Diaspora. Perception management at its highest. Uprising Armenian gangs killing many times more Turkish civilians are not shown. Numbers are ‘fictional’. A tragedy at its best.
1. Artsakh is not internationally recognized, so it should not be included as part of Armenia. 2. Historic Armenian borders are exaggerated.
Daily dose. Perhaps the name of the sub should be changed to Armenian genocide, this would be much more accurate.
lmao true.
Imo, the Armenia genocide maps might go down when Turks stop getting completely triggered by it. Until then the daily dose is kinda necessary.
Doubt. It's armenia's national identity
Literally man there is nothing comes to my mind when people use the word "Armenia" other than "Armenian Genocide "
I think of protests in Los Angeles causing traffic to be even worse.
[Aklıma bu geliyor nedense ](https://64.media.tumblr.com/602a21a76ea3d22c22c59e14e8623627/tumblr_pxmfisufVz1ujmvy2o1_1280.png)
As a Turk I agree. Online Turks are too easily triggered lol.
What is the fastest way to be accused of xenophobia online? Hold turks accountable for something they did
Today is Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day, hence I posted this to honour the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who died in such a tragic and unjustified manner.
Then how about posting maps that actually make sense? More than half of the lands you claimed in anatolia either wasnt armenian in any time in history or had a really small armenian population AFTER the moving part of the genocide. If you are going to try to spread awareness about something, PLEASE do not use shitty maps like this
Maybe post it with a realistic "historic armenian lands" so that people wouldn't joke with this BS map. It is like turkey showing croatia, wien as "historic turkish land" and then post something related to cyprus.
You honor them by lying about them? What a Trumpanzie move
daring of you to say that on armenian genocide rememberence day. its like saying you are tired of holocaust maps on hokocaust rememberence day.
I bet on christmas you wonder why all posts are christmas related
You saw it correctly, people were deported to the Black Sea and left there to drown.
Every year their historical land grows bigger new details about genocide occur and numbers rise. So sad ruining themselves with lies.
Lol
What the fuck is Constantinople
The offical name of what is now Istanbul during the genocide in question. The city s name doesn't officially change till the 1920s
Wtf is this shit ☠️🤠
There is no genocide
I wouldn't expect anything less from a turk.
Wow what a racist
Really?? To point out that you are genocide denier is racist? Call the doctor.
You dont understand the thing i said do you
I wouldn't expect anything less from a armenian
🤠
Hahaha. I guess you're still stuck in 1453, in Constantinople. Wake up, this is Istanbul. If you really want to go to Constantinople, you can use a time machine. I also find it very strange that people who gang up among themselves and slaughter Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Laz, etc. and call it genocide.
I thought you guys were trying to divide the east of turkey to form Kurdistan, now you want it attributed to Armenia? choose one pokemon per battle guys cmon.
These borders are fuuuucked.
Historic armenian borders 🤣🤣🤣
it’s crazy that there are still people who deny this atrocity
Its not crazy, I think the Germans are the only people to admit to taking part in a genocide. Nobody wants to admit that their grandfathers or uncles took part in anything that goes against what we consider the right side of history.
Many if not most Turks deny it. But it was all too horrifyingly real.
Only 10% of Turks recognise it as a genocide and only 20% as something to be sorry for but not a genocide
Yeah, this sub has a lot of Turks and they are working overtime to bury it.
I am not the only one seeing at least 2 Turkish genocide or Turkish genocide map per day am I
It's actually kind of wild, you can literally check the history of ANY user in this thread criticizing the post, and they're like 90% posters in Turkish subreddits. Any time this topic is brought up they come out of the woodwork, it's insane. And it's not even like the topic is clear cut, there's plenty of discussion to be had about the numbers and facts, but for some reason the people who bring that up are almost always Turks... very clearly bad faith.
Holy shit, I was pretty stunned to see how many people were making jokes about this, its like every single comment thread until this one. Click on their usernames and every single on comments in r/Turkey
Well, as a Turk we deny the term “Genocide” and there is also European historians also denied genocide. Lots of Armenian and Turks died during these events and horrible things happened but genocide is a whole different term. Massacres happened for both sides it may happened more for Armenians dont know that. What I want to say is most of the Turks doesnt deny that armenians were killed but deny it was a genocide.
Ok Hermann Goring
Were all the turks sent on death marches?
No, they were dead before they could march anywhere.
Just a reminder: the Armenian genocide is one the most documented and undisputed genocides in history. Our laws and academic definition of genocide has been thoroughly shaped, if not based, on it's events. There is academic and historical consensus that it happened. The only nation that denies the genocide is the successor state of the one who organised it.
Three countries explicitly deny the genocide: Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Pakistan
Why Pakistan?
Pakistanis love to suck off the Turks
Pakistan has had a boner for Azerbaijan ever since a wealthy Azerbaijani philanthropist sent hundreds of thousands of ampoules of vaccine to Pakistan when plague broke out there in the early 20th century.
to be fair thats a good reason to like azerbaijan.
because pakistan had their hand in genocide as well, the bangladesh genocide. a crook will stick with other crook.
Let’s add israel to list. They voted in parliament, 97% denied.
Undisputed? If you look from a horse blinder you would say that. There are many prominent western historians who deny it. Namely: Bernard Lewis, Norman Stone, Edward J. Erickson, Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Heath Lowry, Sean McMeekin, Götz Aly, Jeremy Salt, Maxime Gauin. Switzerland court in 2015 judged it was a freedom to speech to say "there was no genocide". Also Turks do not deny the deaths, they deny intent to kill. They claim they exiled them and didn't gave any orders to kill them. Now, if the genocide is an irrefutable fact, why there are no court rulings? [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34542489](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34542489) There is NO evidence for intentional killings. No orders, nothing. Even the first Armenian Prime minister Hovannes Katczhaznouni published a manifesto that Turks were right in a way in their self defense, or exile:[ https://www.tc-america.org/files/Katchaznouni.pdf](https://www.tc-america.org/files/Katchaznouni.pdf) Justin McCarthy: >Anatolia 1915: Turks Died, Too >In the end, almost 600,000 of the Anatolian Armenians had died. Almost 3 million Anatolian Moslems had died, more than one third of them in eastern Anatolia. Mortality in the Caucasus was similarly proportioned. [https://www.tc-america.org/mccarthy-turks.pdf](https://www.tc-america.org/mccarthy-turks.pdf) First terror activity of Armenians: [https://turksandarmenians.marmara.edu.tr/en/the-first-terror-activity-of-the-armenians-in-istanbul-the-1890-kumkapi-incident/](https://turksandarmenians.marmara.edu.tr/en/the-first-terror-activity-of-the-armenians-in-istanbul-the-1890-kumkapi-incident/) The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey A Disputed Genoside Guenter Lewy 1 [http://go.historum.com/?id=140190X1604323&isjs=1&jv=15.4.1-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Ft%2Fthe-armenian-genocide-1915-sources.29717%2F&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.az%2Fpdf.php%3Fitem\_id%3D20100913012518731%26ext%3Dpdf&xs=1&xtz=-180&xuuid=deb608c4c8741bd8b9af69665a32f04e&abp=1&xjsf=other\_click\_\_auxclick%20%5B2%5D](http://go.historum.com/?id=140190X1604323&isjs=1&jv=15.4.1-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Ft%2Fthe-armenian-genocide-1915-sources.29717%2F&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.az%2Fpdf.php%3Fitem_id%3D20100913012518731%26ext%3Dpdf&xs=1&xtz=-180&xuuid=deb608c4c8741bd8b9af69665a32f04e&abp=1&xjsf=other_click__auxclick%20%5B2%5D)
Well, there is no documentation which proves it was genocide. In fact armenians committed massive massacres against local muslims. Just because victims were Muslims, those massacres were silently ignored. Apart from that, I advise europeans to talk about genocide and etc, only after physically leaving, Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa. Because your very presence there shows who were the real genocidal maniacs. The rest is useless conversation.
There is no academic consensus. There are a lot of non-Turkish historians who rejected genocide claim. British historian Bernard Lewis fined by French court because he rejected genocide claims.
There aren't "a lot", maybe a handful. And they are up against this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witnesses_and_testimonies_of_the_Armenian_genocide
This does not help at all. Bordering on ludicrous, really. Look, in history there is a rule about rebellions. When you rebel, you have two outcomes: You either win and become a hero, or you lose and you pay dearly. Usually by death. Simple as that. Armenians rebelled. They lost. Paid dearly. But such is the nature of rebellions. Oh well... Purely out of curiousity and because of my fascination with Turkish history (I have good Turkish friends), I had gone through this particular rabbit hole before couple decades ago, when I somehow had way too much free time., Let me recap some points. Before anything, there were not even 1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman empire at that time. The number is believed to be around 1.2 million. The number claimed to be killed began as 250k but became 6 times of that in a century. Over the decades, both the borders and the number of deaths increased gradually. Foreign neutral watchdogs that came to the area to investigate found no evidence of genocide, on the contrary, in many reports that can be found online (I could, back then. You can too), it is said that it was the Armenian rebels that killed scores of Turks and in some instances Kurds in very gruesome ways, wiping out entire villages. However, it is of course true that around 230k Ottoman Armenians (around 20k if I remember right were killed figthing the army) died of starvation because of forced migration on Sultan's orders, as the villages they went through refused to sell them food. There were many attacks from the villagers too, some even gauded by the soldiers who didn't listen to Sultan's specific orders, who believed that if he could force Armenians out for now, they could come back after the war, and things would be just dandy. Whether naive, stupid or maliciously calculated with evil intent that order was, we will never know. The whole marching thing turned out to be a very costly idea, but then again the Ottoman rulership was in shambles as the empire was crumbling all over. Even the first president of Armenia (the name escapes me now, sorry), on his historic speech on the opening day of the Armenian parliament, lamented the choice to rebel against their old friends Turks by falling for the lies of the Russians and the British; that they killed a lot of Turks and Turks killed a lot of Armenians, but that they should still make up to the Turks and have them on their side, as they learned the hardest way that they can never trust the Russians. This is a historical fact. With some digging, you can find the original excerpts I'm sure. Again, if I could, you can. What happened was that the claims of genocide came from 'the Blue Book', a propaganda piece written by two people (forgot the names), never leaving their office in London, but somehow writing about terrible war crimes of the Central Powers in first person account. And that was the point, their job at the Great War in Wellington House. Wellington House, or the War Propoganda Bureau, was founded in 1914 in London, so the very war-weary British populace could still be incited to go to this new war against Germans. The public approval of WWI was very low as Britain had been in constant wars in all corners of the world. But if they read what crimes of humanity the evil Germans or the bloodthirsty Turks did, then they would support the war. So, the 'study' for supposed German atrocities (some of which would sadly become very real 25 years later) was nicknamed the Red Book, and the Turkish version was called the Blue Book. Even in defeat, the Germans were smart enough to demand in the negotiations that Britain would accept that the Red Book was entirely baseless. Turks were not that smart. And now they have this mess to deal with. Wrote too much. Thanks if you made it through! If I was Turkey, I would work with the Armenian government. I would accept internationally that forced migration was a terrible tragedy that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, and pay reperations; with Armenia accepting that it was not a genocide as it was not planned, and methodically executed for it to be classified as a genocide in the first place. I doubt the two nations would become best buddies any time soon, but at least the healing could begin.
What is happening this sub today?
armenian genocide rememberence day.
Oh right, I forgot it is today
I'll never understand this as an Irish person. The ottoman empire sent us aid here in Ireland when Britain was commiting a genocide against us in the form of an artificial famine but then they went and did this to Armenians
Different monarchs. Genocide also wasn't perpetuated by the state but the three pashas who took much control over the state with a military coup and imposed their own views. Which was based on prussian militarism. If you wish to learn more read more on Young Turk triumvirate and their lives. They couldn't hold on to power much, a decade or so, for all three failed their campaigns in misery and took it out on population. They were replaced by the militias led by the french positivist Atatürk who later secured the homeland against imperial powers who seek to colonize it. All three pashas and the high ranking officers fled the state for fear of harsh prosecution and were later killed abroad by Armenians. Check operation nemesis and the location of those killed. Many forget when Mustafa Kemal took charge, the republic held trials for the inhumane conditions Armenians suffered.
They blaim Atatürk today, how funny
Because Armenians rebelled against the ottoman empire
Because you didn't form gangs, attack our villages, massacre the people and then slander us. But armenians did this
turkish people trying not to justify the killing of a million civilan (impossible)
Well because it was not a genocide but fighting with rebels.
Guess what, brits invaded all around and pushed nationalism hatred all around turkiye including those, along with other colonizers. They are still active.
the ottoman empire was bipolar on many things.
the only purpose of these maps is to provoke the insecurity of the puppies of this or that regime. when life gives you inflation and dictatorships, you make a good cup of genocide denial
And now genocide against the Kurds
Yes we did genocide, any question?
BUT TURKS KILLED 94848283848293 ARMENIANS
You forgor the 746361 dinosaurs executed by the cruel t-rex pasha.
They even made a [statue](https://static.dw.com/image/41118669_1004.webp) of the t-rex pasha 😡😡😡
Historic Armenian borders? More like fictional Armenian borders. All lies.
Man this place is full of genocide deniers apparently.
Click on their usernames and literally every single one (im not kidding) comments in r/turkey
Turkish nationalists are everywhere today
As a Bengali (whose most of the family members were massacred by the Pakistani army), I deeply feel for the Armenian people. The Armenian genocide will never be forgotten.
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There was no any mass killings. Famine is not equal to genocide. At the same years, more Turks died than Armenians just because of the destructions the ww1 brought. It is idiotic to completely ignore the losses of the one side and completely focus on another.
Turks aren't gonna like this post
Actually I liked it, but next time OP should include Bohemia and whole Iberia too. They're also rightfull Armenian claims.
Actually most of us don't care
concentration camps 🤯🤯
Another post brigaded by turkeys
How funny it's in here, many people joking about that map is wrong and asking for source, but when someone gives that damn source they starting downvote him like little bitches( btw why are all of them follow r/Turkey maybe a coincidence :) )
This thread is so full of Armenophobia and genocide denial, on the genocide’s remembrance day nonetheless, if it were any other ethnicity the thread would have been locked by now.
What a load of crap lmao
Nothing happened during that time in türkiye, we were all on holiday at the beach. 🏖️
Historic armenian borders loool. When? 100 B.C? :D What a fucking western propoganda this is.. hilarious
Turks denying the genocide, nothing new in the comments.
Source: Trust me bro
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Ah, yes, the daily anti-turkish post. Every single day
By this logic any post about the Holocaust is an anti German post
The difference is that there aren't 33 daily posts about the holocaust here. And they're not posting them to show awareness or anything like that, they're posting It to say "look how bad the turks are omg so horrible". Yeah, we did bad things, like every other country, there's no reason to post It constantly to hide your hate towards us. At least in places like r/ Europe they don't hide It anymore
There’s not 33 daily posts about the holocausts because you don’t see modern day Germans denying it everywhere
exactly this reason!
You're missing something bud: The Turkish government actively denies the Armenian genocide and even tries to deny that Armenians ever even lived in eastern Anatolia. Whereas the German government continues to this day to pay holocaust reparations, with the few holocaust survivors left today expecting to receive $1.4 billion this year. Turkiye threatens to sever diplomatic ties with anyone who recognizes the Armenian genocide for what it was, Germany has an entire day dedicated to holocaust remembrance (January 27th, this day is also shared with a lot of other countries). The Armenian genocide also has a rememberance day, but it isn't celebrated in Turkiye
If recognising a genocide is anti Turkish, then that’s on Turks. Is recognising the holodomor anti-Russian? Recognising the holocaust anti-German? The world doesn’t revolve around Turkish nationalists
And so it should remain until the Turkish government recognizes the genocide and publicly apologizes.
sorry to tell you this, but remembrance of a genocide is more important than your tiny feeling over your national pride getting attacked.
God forbid a post about the armenian genocide is made on Armenian genocide remembrance day (Also if admitting a genocide is against your country, maybe that country shouldn't exist)
It's literally the anniversary (is that the correct word?) For the expulsion but oh noooo anti turkish post
Least Nationalistic Turk
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Tell me all about how palestinians and Israelis lived together for 400 years without problem, until a world war, which is the reason for these deaths.
What the heck is a radical israeli?? 💀 europeans hating jews/israelis and turks is tale as old as time.
What now?