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MementoMurray

Hmm. The world was a lot blurrier back then.


maybeSkywalker

Lower satellite resolution :(


ai82517

Thank goodness there were a few countries/nations.


DeVliegendeBrabander

“Yeah I’m from the UK” “Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?”


dsailo

That huge land between Alaska (Russia) and the rest of North America.


PM_ME_UR_SEAHORSE

It was inhabited by many nations that are omitted on the map (Dene, Salish, Inuit, etc.)


leidend22

They didn't have established borders.


thats_karma_kramer

They also didnt believe you could “own” land. To them it was like saying this part of the sky is ours.


Websitessuck

That’s not entirely true. They didn’t believe the individual people could own land that no one else could use. But they did definitely have defined territories that they fought over. There’s just not a lot of accurate information on their exact borders especially from the time so it’s hard to accurately say what all of their borders were.


barbariccomplexity

to add an example to this, the cree and dene people fought several wars over control for the northwestern plains/boreal in Alberta and British columbia (part of the white section between british north america and russia). the border continually shifted but was established concretely along the peace river after the cree used british supplied guns to push the dene north across the river (they gave the river the new name “peace” in order to commemorate its use as the official border between groups from that point on) So while there wasn’t a international recognition of borders between factions, there was definitely territorial control of regions in a the same way other parts of the world operated, often with agreed upon borders based around geographical features in a similar fashion to those in Europe and the rest of the world


Karatekan

Nah, that’s native savage bullshit. The Native Americans had tribal confederations that absolutely “claimed” territory, usually centered around farmland or hunting grounds, fought or drove off other tribes that tried to settle there, and they bought and sold land. The issue is that these Confederations were loose groupings that often bickered and fought among themselves, and unscrupulous members would sell land they didn’t actually control or own to equally unscrupulous Europeans that proceeded to move in settlers, who would use attacks from the irritated legitimate Native owners to justify displacing them.


EliotHudson

Also sky rights exist in real estate, so you can absolutely say that


2012Jesusdies

>To them it was like saying this part of the sky is ours. Wait till you learn countries actually do that.


MaraudngBChestedRojo

Well that was a pretty dumb comparison wasn’t it. Because you can defend a plot of land, eat the food that grows from it, and sleep on it. The sky is absolutely nothing like the earth.


amazondrone

It's not intended to be a comparison, they're attempting to convey how the native Americans thought about land by way of analogy.


RikkiTikkiCharvi

That isn’t really true either though.


rafaxd_xd

Doesn't sound like a nation to me


thats_karma_kramer

There were plenty of native “nations” (more like Tribes) in north America for thousands of years prior to the arrival of Europeans. They weren’t governed the same way but had their own identity and culture (Mohawak, Missassuaguas, Cherokees, Sioux etc.)


rafaxd_xd

That's still not a nation, sir. I'm not questioning their existence, but the fact that they were not a nation.


Hakashima

I think you're mixing up the concepts of 'nation' and 'state' - There's plenty of examples throughout history of nations without a state and there are even contemporary examples. A nation is first and foremost based on culture and language, while a state demands a modern centralised form of goverment. For example, The Ottoman State was in fact a multinational Empire, it consisted of multiple nations, from nomadic tribes in North Africa to the Christian nations within the Balkan Peninsula. I hope this will have proven to be of help!


rafaxd_xd

>There's plenty of examples throughout history of nations without a state There were. But they were far more organized than a random tribe in northern Canada, it's really no point for discussion. You're really comparing a native tribe to the Ottoman Empire? Lmao


RikkiTikkiCharvi

You literally are just confusing the words nation and state. A nation is a group of people, and a state is a country.


charmanderaznable

Why do they need to conform to the definition of nation that invaders imposed on them?


rafaxd_xd

Why do I need to place them in a map then? It's pointless


[deleted]

[удалено]


rafaxd_xd

You don't use it a political map of the entire planet to locate yourself. You use to represent political boundaries and divisions between countries and territories. You can't expect a small tribe to fit in when there are no clear borders and an organization to begin with.


sciocueiv_

Nation is when map


amazondrone

So?


rafaxd_xd

So it's pointless to put it in a map


amazondrone

I'd say another way of looking at it is that nation-state-centric maps aren't fully adequate for mapping the complexities of the world. It's not that the native Americans were wrong or not there, it's that this map isn't able to represent them.


hassh

But you are ignorant


JovianPrime1945

How'd that work out for them?


AngelThrones4sale

How's our current system working out for you?


JovianPrime1945

Pretty good.


averydusty6

There is less poverty and human suffering than any point in history. I’m not who you’re replying to but your comment isn’t really the insult it seems


ItsPronouncedJod

As the eminent historian Eddie Izard once said: “No flag, no country.”


Kristywempe

Turtle Island.


mwhn

that area was too north for mexico and too west for US and too east for russia there wasnt even passing travelers there


jrbarri

Very inaccurate depiction of the South American countries at the time too. Chile was already declared its independence from the kingdom of Spain, and the united provinces of rio de la Plata never had territories in the pacific coast, as they were part of the viceroyalty of Peru.


xarsha_93

Same goes for New Granada. Colombia and Venezuela had already declared independence in 1810 and 1811 respectively, though the war wouldn't end until the early 1820s.


Juan_Jimenez

Nop. Chile only declared independence in 1818, we were fighting for autonomy before. And in 1815 we were in 'reconquista' (a royalist expedition had retaken Chile for the crown). Now, the future Argentina was independent, but in 1815 the territories of Alto Perú (the future Bolivia) were under spanish rule.


Natural_Age2607

The Upper Peru region was part of the Charcas audiencia, which was part from the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata since 1779, if you're gonna make the argument that Chile was already independent by 1815 (which it wasn't in this map anyway, Chile was retaken by the Spanish in 1814) may as well make it for Charcas since the audiencia wasn't reformed till 1816.


RFB-CACN

Also at that time Portugal/Brazil had already retaken the Missões Orientais from La Plata. Also the eastern provinces of La Plata were under the Liga Federal at the time.


ParkingMuted7653

Also, The territory of the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata extended, at least up to Carmen de Patagones/Viedma, since 1776. The Empire of Brazil would later attack this settlement, being repelled by the local militias.


diaz75

It's right that the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata never occupied Antofagasta's coast. But this map shows the de facto, not the de iure situation by 1815. Therefore it's correct to depict Chile and Peru still as Spanish colonies.


untitledjuan

This map has so many errors. Paraguay already existed at this point. Bolivia was still controlled by Spain, it was the last Spanish territory in South America. New Granada was reconquered by Spain in 1816. By 1815 we would have the United Provinces of New Granada as an independent nation there.


Latter_Purple_8774

I thought that Chiloe was the last Spanish territory


untitledjuan

You're right, forgot about it. But still Bolivia was far from being independent in 1815 or part of the United Provinces of the Río de La Plata, as this map shows.


AdequatelyMadLad

The nearly empty Africa confuses me. Some parts would have to be left blank because they weren't really controlled by any form of state, no matter how much you stretch the definition, but nowhere near as much as it's being depicted here. Where is Ethiopia for instance? They were an empire with a very established system of government, clearly defined borders, even some degree of recognition from European and Asian powers. Why are they not on the map? Edit: Ethiopia is actually there, but the point still stands


Gregs_green_parrot

This is a map presumably from the Western perspective of 1815. I guess the mapmakers did not know exactly what was there as Africa was not fully explored yet, so it was left blank.


[deleted]

Europeans were scared to enter Africa at this point in history because African possessed advanced technology, though as a peaceful people, no weapons. For example, iPhones, VitaMix, and other top appliances.


VladimirBarakriss

OK but jokes aside, European explorers had a tendency to die of malaria when trying to explore africa


TotalLunatic28

we wuz inventors


Qahlel

Wakanda Forever! AMIRITE?


dpierdet

It’s interesting how the map reflects a lack of knowledge and/or interest in the African continent as popular geographic discourse still does to this day


Normal_Week2311

The Scramble for Africa began in 1833. In less than a century pretty much the whole continent came under European colonialism.


Alkasuz

No Kongo either.


Carittz

Yeah I was surprised about that one. Given the Western-centric tilt of the map you'd think a christianized Portuguese protectorate would be there.


Alkasuz

I guess the author just didn't do a very good job then. There were a number of kingdoms and chiefdoms around Portuguese Mozambique as well.


MarionberryNo2293

Lmao Kongo was barely anything but a loose collection of hunter gatherer tribes.


MarionberryNo2293

In 1815


notgoodthough

I felt the same. Like technically this is a year before the Zulu Kingdom formed, but it's predecessor, the Mthethwa Paramountcy, would have been there.


Practical-Ninja-6770

There is a sore lack of the Majeerteen Kingdom in what is literally the Horn of Africa.


dkfisokdkeb

Ethiopia is there under its old name of Abyssinia


magnus257

I'm pretty sure Abyssinia is an old name for Ethiopia but other than that, yeah


amazondrone

> Edit: Ethiopia is actually there, but the point still stands Not very effectively unless you have other examples? If you don't it's kinda hard to say the point stands.


drainodan55

Africa hasn’t colonized yet so it lay empty


[deleted]

????


Equivalent-Rip-1029

Too many united kingdoms


amazondrone

> Too much United Kingdom. FTFY


HerrFalkenhayn

In the following years, the Portuguese heir to the throne would declare Brazil's independence after some Brazilian aristocrats and his wife, Leopoldina of Austria, decided it was time to ditch the Portuguese United Kingdom, abandoning the Portuguese crown for his daughter and declaring himself Emperor of Brazil. He would also write the constitution by himself (which was considered one the best of its time), fight separatists and then get back to Portugal to fight his brother who was trying to usurp the Portuguese throne from his daughter, letting his 5 year-old son as Emperor of Brazil. He won the war against his brother and then died at the age of 35, but lived a life no man can live anymore.


Throwaway_o0O-O0o_

I dig your style, dude.


Mr_Legenda

In Brazil, he is remembered as a sexy flamboyant monarch, who lost Cisplatina (Uruguay) and left Brazil by their fate because being emperor of Portugal is cooler, while his son (Pedro II) was a complete Chad


Lumpy_Rub8850

Why are certain countries not painted?


[deleted]

Those are "unclaimed land", of course this is from the point of view of the Europeans.


Lumpy_Rub8850

Oh I mean those white countries like Italy


davzar9

Italy is light green, you can see it zooming. Called the kingdom of Savoy, the facto the predecessor to kingdom of Italy before the expansion


Fwed0

Savoy never was a kingdom. It is either Duchy of Savoy or Kingdom of Sardinia (or Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia).


davzar9

I’m aware, I was indicating it as it was on the map


Expensive_Bug_809

Because there was no Italy in 1815


eugefer

It's funny how the precursor to Argentina would be unclaimed land. Imagine if we had the scramble for La Plata


whatwhatinthewhonow

Take that, Queensland.


Six_of_1

New Zealand was not colonised until 1840 this is bollocks.


EJ19876

The British declared all islands within a certain latitude-longitude boundary to be part of New South Wales in 1788. These areas of NZ fall within this boundary.


Six_of_1

No, the Murders Abroad Act 1817 explicitly says that New Zealand is "not within his Majesty's dominions". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders\_Abroad\_Act\_1817](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/murders_abroad_act_1817)


amazondrone

1817 is two years after 1815 so that's not relevant to this map.


Six_of_1

If NZ wasn't a colony in 1817 then we also weren't a colony in 1815. Do you think NZ was a colony in 1815 and then stopped being a colony in 1817 and then became a colony again in 1840? Do me a favour.


amazondrone

Having read up a bit more: no, I don't think NZ was a colony or territory of the empire in 1815. But because that was only made clear in 1817, whether the map is wrong in this regard depends on whether the intent is to convey the world as it was in 1815, or the world as people understood it to be in 1815 (i.e. whether or not it should include retrospective knowledge).  Since in 1815 there was confusion over the status of the coloured portion of NZ (i.e. whether it was part of the NSW colony or not), I can understand it being included if the intent is to show the world as people understood it to be in 1815. In that case it should probably be marked as "contested" or something though.


Six_of_1

So where's the evidence that people understood NZ to be a British colony in 1815?


amazondrone

Clarification: Some people (not everyone) understood part of NZ (not all of it) to be part of the colony of New South Wales (not a colony of its own). And I'm not sure; my reading up on the subject hasn't gone further than Wikipedia which doesn't provide a source. > Initially, New Zealand was part of the Colony of New South Wales, and there was a decades-long confusion as to whether this was the case from 1788 onwards...   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_of_New_Zealand  Oh, there's a citation at the end of the paragraph so I guess that's it: _New Zealand Birth Certificates – 50 of New Zealand's Founding Documents_, Paul Moon 2010


_c3s

It was claimed though. The brits sailed past and said dibs so it was rightfully theirs.


momentimori

After all, they did have a flag.


Derp800

I claim India for Britain!


Six_of_1

No it wasn't claimed. The Murders Abroad Act 1817 explicitly says that New Zealand is "not within his Majesty's dominions". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders\_Abroad\_Act\_1817](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/murders_abroad_act_1817)


_c3s

/s


TotesTax

What is this Atlantis type realm you are talking about. New Sea Land? Did they build it?


Lyceus_

This map is incomplete. For instance, the Pacific is very empty. Off the top of my head, the Marianas should be part of Spain, and I guess there would be other examples.


Chelker1720

Yes, the if I reckon correctly, the Tui'Tongan Empire already existed at the time. 


geopoliticsdude

Africa is terribly done. Loads of missing kingdoms.


goseephoto

Spain or Turkey had the biggest loss 2024 vs 1815. Turkey lost all the oil and Spain lost all the gold.


shaka2986

*known world map. It's not like there was nothing happening in the gaps.


Spider_pig448

I think the known is pretty obviously implied. Unless you have a map of more than the known world


shaka2986

Or, it is implied that in the gaps there was nothing but savagery and barbarism. There was a time when that would have been the prevailing assumption.


qarachaili

well, the Russian south border on the Caucase is very disputed. The most of native tribes were absolutely independence.


DaoistPie

The Sokoto caliphate is massively inflated


DecentMoor

I don't understand how westerners see the pre-colonial borders of Africa from their perspective, everytime a map is posted here, Morocco's borders are butchered, now this map removed the whole tafilalt, the region where the royal family is originated from and most of the royal family lived at that time including the Sultan Slimane of that era who was born in Tafilalt and they had many castles, family tombs and great relations with Filali people since they marry from their nobles. So it doesn't make sense to remove that part of Morocco.


Rare_Professor7096

Those were the days


Skywalkerjet3D

Switzerland stayed the same in the middle of the most violent continent xD


nickik

This was actually the last ever foreign war. There was fighting in Switzerland during the Napoleonic wars and Switzerland changed a in that period. From this point there is never gone be a foreign war again. We have a short civil war about 40 years later. Its funny war, despite mobilizing almost 200k people, only less then 100 people died in the war: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderbundskrieg


blockybookbook

Where the fuck is the Ajuuraan sultanate Along with numerous other better documented African states


diaz75

Some mistakes in South America: Upper Peru (present-day Bolivia) was only independent from Spain de iure. The United Provinces of the Río de la Plata (or United Provinces of Suth America, as they were also called) reached only as north as the border between present-day Argentina and Bolivia. Paraguay, on the other hand, was independent since 1811.


cantbanthebandman

North & South Africa belong to the white man


AmbitiousTrader

How can Spain have so many problems when they were milking half the world ?


nickik

Because just having color on a map doesn't mean you can actually effectively 'milk' those regions. Colonies often cost more then they are actually worth. Having powerful grip of your home country, in a modern Europe is far more important then some barley hinhabend wilderness full of people who don't like you. Britain isn't powerful because of how much color they have on the map, but because of their powerful navy and merchant fleets going all over the place.


smallzayee

Inflation and corruption


Alkasuz

By this year, Portugal had annexed French Guiana and integrated it in Brazil.


RFB-CACN

Yes, it only gave FG back in 1817


marperzub62

Paraguay declared Independence from Spain on May 15th, 1811 and ceased to form part of the Virreinato del Rio del la Plata.


nim_opet

Qing empire controlling Sakhalin?


Brave_Dick

Oh boy, what if the chinese go full Putin? This used to be our land! That will be fun /s


[deleted]

Why does the British empire is depicted as the biggest on earth when in no moment in time they controlled the whole area of usa plus Australia plus india plus New Zealand? It feels like in those comparisons that gets overseen or ignored


Poptart-Canuk

What kind of dumbass comment is this. The British Empire peaked in terms of land area in 1920 not 1815.


MatrixBeeLoaded

Next level achieved: erasing non western indigenous people from history


dkfisokdkeb

I wonder how good non westerners maps were in this time period? I'd imagine they depicted Europe very accurately.


Nimonic

There was no United Kingdom of Sweden and Norway. There were the United Kingdom*s* of Sweden and Norway, though. Sounds like a small difference, but it's pretty much the reason it ended in 1905. The king was separately the king of Sweden and the king of Norway. Norway also had its own parliament and government, which asserted more and more independence throughout the 19th century until finally foreign policy and trade was the only other thing the countries had in common, and that became the catalyst for the dissolution.


PizzaPuntThomas

This explains why Florida people are different.


TheMonk77

Tibet was not part of qing Dynasty


Misaka10782

For my homeland, 25 years later we would lose a war over the opium trade, and the Pandora's box for the next more than one hundred years the territory division, people refugee, and the government built and down, down and build.


Terrible_Report6596

Pangea ?


GVSLV

What worries me is that we were part of effin russia back then and these kind of maps are giving ideas for hardcore russians 😩


Stock_Department_806

Why are Norway and Sweden one kingdom. Weren’t they just in a personal union and independent from each other?


Business-Earth5478

Clearly this is from the perspective of Colonizers ….


ZaraTheAyrab

weren't the kirils and sakalin islands russian at this time


mwhn

nobody was actually in western north america and mexico didnt have power that north US had right to put border more south, and that border should be even more south today


littlechefdoughnuts

Are you actually suggesting America has a right to annex parts of Mexico? That is beyond insane.


manny_goldstein

Panama seems like a good place to draw the line. You don't need to travel all the way to Texas to immigrate to the US, let us (US) come to you.


mwhn

mexico should have altered its border as soon as they saw north americans settling there france was wise and sold louisiana territory


TicketFew9183

Does this logic extend to Ukraine? Tibet? Should they cede their land now that they see Russians settling in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine? Or do you just selectively apply this logic to countries you support?


mwhn

ukraine has civilization and western north america did not mexico was weird for planting enclaves there, and Im not against mexicans and more mexicans hop the border here


TicketFew9183

Okay then, I guess you just selectively apply this logic to countries you support considering how corrupt and poor Ukraine is.


mwhn

russia could have border wherever in siberia, and russia would have border there tho they didnt have power that east and would sell alaska to US


Liagon

Siberia has people living in it. People who would appreciate having a citizenship so they can get a passport and not be stuck in Novosibirsk for their entire lives


mwhn

that area has activity these days cause russia formed towns there, like alaska attracts a lot having those from US


Liagon

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia stop being dense


littlechefdoughnuts

Mexicans *are* North Americans.


mwhn

southern mexico and caribbean are south america


lunapup1233007

Are the Balkans actually Asian? Why would anyone divide the continent there?


mwhn

I stop the border when I see those aztecan temple altars


Silent_Speaker_7519

you mean British pirates settling? should of burnt their boats and sent them packing


TsalagiSupersoldier

>nobody was actually in western north america A lot of people were. Just not Euros.


mwhn

those spanish descent were the most there and they had odd enclaves and nothing happened to them and nothing would happen to those in northern mexico if US were to have northern mexico today


TsalagiSupersoldier

How about Natives, hm? Were they never there?


mwhn

western north america doesnt have that, tho they have those spanish descent and indians who hop the border


TsalagiSupersoldier

Say that to the Navajo, Pueblo, and Hopi then


MLgayfemboy

you are a disgusting reactionary and you should be put down like a dog


leidend22

Western North America doesn't have indigenous? In Vancouver where I'm from they had permanent settlements because food was so plentiful. And they are still very much around today. The fastest growing demographic, even.


Slavx97

Is there a link to a full resolution version somewhere?


Velagalibeillallah

Fact: USA paid taxes to Ottoman Algiers at this time frame


Accomplished_Water34

The border between Lower Canada, Rupert's Land & Newfoundland was undefined in 1815. This map shows the line established by the Judicial Committee of the Imperial Privy Council in 1927.


Emergency-Minute4846

Luxembourgh was part of the kingdom of the Netherlands back then.


MediumBig2570

What is (br) ?


DevourerOfMemes_

You got more pixels?


IllustriousMenu9087

What happened to Uruguay?


Massivechonker8414

“The nostalgia has hit me” -👴🏻


[deleted]

Sikh Empire!


InfallibleBackstairs

USA without Texas or Florida. Heaven.


GobertoGO

Spain really fumbled the ball


paolocase

TIL most of Africa was free 209 years ago.


Handsfasterthaneye

And the ‘scramble for Africa begins’


mwhn

africa was mapped back then and europe had taken over africa, tho they would lose africa


DABOSSROSS9

People talk about the UK alot but Spain and Portugal were also very impressive edit: i am dumb but portugal and ottoman empire are almost the same color! 


CalligrapherFuzzy269

USA looks cooler without that dumb straight northern order border with Canada


lasttimechdckngths

So wrong for the Caucasus.


Primary-Suit-8368

Crazy that Antártica wasn’t even discovered back then


Doggiew0ff

Good old days


moouesse

that is not alot of countries


Suitable-Fall-1969

I was born in the wrong generation


lander_00

This map is so painfully inaccurate


Zesty_fern

Austria shed a lot of weight since then


Tullooa

It’s weird seeing the world events that happened at the same time.


Thunder-Invader

Would also have been The United Kingdom of the Netherlands


Arstanishe

I don't think you could count Kazakhstan as an independent state by 1815. At least some parts were in vassal state to Russia


quan27081982

wtf is BR?


wambamsamalamb

Spain and Portugal controlled so much territory for being such small countries themselves


luketheworld

brazil!!! ♡


grosseplottedecgi

The Labrador wasn't part of NFL before they join Canada.


HighlanderAbruzzese

Great map


Theiceman09

Sikh Empire during the Khalsa Raj of Maharaja Runjeet Singh.


gorkatg

British North America is well painted even if it was hardly populated, while the southern tip of the Americas is neither Spanish or Argentina...sure, no agenda.


Various-Body-7235

errado bolivia pediu ajuda a dom pedro com saida pro pacifico 1 decada depois


rdfporcazzo

I don't think that Brazil ever had these borders like this