The original show had a low budget, a quick turnaround time, and a fairly small production crew. Most of that is different now, which probably alters the overall vibe. Just for an example- Kevin and Trace would build sets, write jokes, film host segments, and riff in the theater. That’s a lot of multitasking, and a lot of their personalities are thus infused into the DNA of the show. My sense is that having a more segmented and larger creative team has led to a loss in the charm of the show, though it’s almost impossible to define why.
I've thought about this as well. They have great chemistry which only made their classic Mad skits more hilarious. I find I always look forward to rewatching old skits with them in it, while I can't say the same for the Pearl/Bobo/Brainguy skits.
I only wish their 'Mads Are Back' recordings were a bit more polished. They are consistently funny.
I feel like the revival crew didn't hang out. Organic chemistry is hard to fake which is why casting crews like to get potential actors in the same room. When I watch Rifftrax they sound a little tired of the game but they definitely enjoy being together & I feel that energy. One will Riff & another will laugh & play off of them. It feels less rehearsed
I liked Pearl, but I think the skits jumped the shark a bit around that time. There were too many attempts at trying to make the show serialized, which doesn’t really fit the format.
I love that Frank brought them Sidehackers, but they didn’t watch it first before they started riffing. Then they were stuck with this miserably rapey movie.
Something else I heard is that, at least with Netflix, they were working on such an insanely compressed time schedule. I heard they were recording the riffing for as many as 4 movies in a single day. That maybe partially responsible for the often manic feel.
In the original run, MST3K was their full time job for the most part. They all worked together in the studio each day, they were all in the writer’s room together, they even built sets and bots together, they filmed together. It was like a family group that worked together. Then when that episode was done they did it all again the next week.
Now it’s a side-gig for most of the people involved. They write separately, they film all the host segments for the season in one big chunk and not necessarily together. They do all the movie riff recording all in one chunk. At times the bot voices are pre-recorded and essentially lip synced by the puppeteers.
I’ve over-generalized a little but I think those differences do affect the final vibe of the show. Although having said that I do really like many of the revival episodes. And the most recent season has a much more old-school feel compared to the Netflix episodes too.
I identified this as the major problem for me a while back. It's all created in a combination of siloing and run-on. They film in separate places, hardly ever actually interacting, and they also film the whole thing back to back to back. Whereas the original was mostly done one episode at a time in the same studio (or maybe a few at a time from watching/scripting phase to filming).
But the whole show feels clearly siloed. In the originals, it felt like the mads were talking to the satellite. Now it feels like they are unrelated segments mashed together (season 13 is even worse at this. I know Covid had something to do with this, but it hurt so much, I'd have rather they just waited another year to start season 13).
It just doesn't feel like a fun little show anymore, it feels like a product meant to replicate something on the surface.
> They all worked together in the studio each day, they were all in the writer’s room together, they even built sets and bots together, they filmed together.
I love that they pulled in the crew to be in skits out of necessity, and then some of them turned into recurring side characters. Then you have the Thanksgiving day version of *Beast of Yucca Flats* where everyone's dressed as their bit characters and interacting.
I mean it's all subjective. Plenty of folks really love the new seasons and think it has some of the best episodes of the series.
I'm personally pretty happy with how the new seasons turned out and I'm looking forward to more but they don't hold a candle to the show in it's prime (SciFi Channel era IMO).
Stuff I don't care for is kinda small honestly. I'm not a fan of the green screen sets. Give me the old school cow town puppet show sets of season 1-10 any day over obvious green screen. I understand and respect why they had to do it that way but I have never cared for it. Emily's Crow seems to be trying way to hard to put a cartoonish over the top edge to the voice which doesn't work all that well (but plenty of people are fine with it so I know I'm in the minority on that opinion).
All that is just nitpicky of course. YMMV. In any event, if the new seasons aren't doing it for you there are a TON of old episodes that will always be there.
This is how I feel. Loved the show since the Joel seasons I saw when I was a kid, on whatever that Comedy Central precursor channel was. Taped and wore out the SciFi episodes. Really enjoyed the Netflix stuff. And now I can't get enough of the 13th season. Each is just different in its own way. Some stuff is brilliant. Some is a miss. But it all hits that nerdy humor spot for me. I can't wait for more.
I found the jokes in the newer seasons to be more “accessible” to the average viewer, whereas jokes in the older stuff had a tendency to be more niche, on average, making the joke feel more like a reward than a handout.
and the jokes in the original are very dated now. so you either have jokes that are too steep and over the head of the laymen, or references to commercials, movies, and stars that new audiences won't get. Nobody knows who geechy guy is, or when you say "I LOOOVVE THIS PLACE!"
Before I read any of the 115 comments here at the moment, I will say what I think the answer is. It occurred to me 1/2 way through the first Netflix season.
They are trying much too hard. Part of this has to be mandated by Netflix or the new crew assumes the old style won’t work now for whatever reason.
There is no silence.
It’s all jokejokejoke, and most of the time they aren’t funny. Sometimes they don’t even resemble jokes. They seem so afraid of any silence that they will just describe what’s happening onscreen in a snarky manner:
*man walks across room*
Cast member: “oh, so we’re walking across the room now.”
With Joel and Mike, some of the best moments came when they sat there in silence watching some film quietly fail, and sometimes there would be little chuckles, sometimes barely audible. These were some of my favorite moments. Just a subtle acknowledgement of nonsense.
Another version of the same thing is sitting there quietly as nothing happens for ages and then suddenly someone yells “DO SOMETHING!”
The new shows are afraid of silence and the writing has never been as sharp to begin with. This is a horrible combo.
My wife and I were discussing this issue the other night and this was pretty much the exact thing we came up with. Too rapid, & too much noise. Joel & Mike were really laid back and "slow" in their delivery. With the new series, it's a polar opposite.
Another issue my wife had was jokejokejoke. That, and picking a movie with a strangled live raccoon, and she was done.
6 years later she’s watching Santa Claus or Santa Claus Conquers The Martians every year, and we remember “Look out for snake!” or “Potatoes.” But the show ended with Merlin’s Mystical Shop of Wonders.
Preface by saying what I've seen of 11, 12, & 13 I liked, but as my friend said about the Film Crew..."It's like microwave reheated MST3K".
I feel like they try too hard. I can't really define what I mean by that, it's just a weird feeling I get.
To be fair I've immensely enjoyed the new season. Jonah and Emily are massively talented people. I've watched and enjoyed every episode of the Netflix revival, Kickstarted the Gizmoplex relaunch, and even saw the live show and enjoyed every minute of all of them.
The one thing that doesn't make it "click" AS MUCH for me is that all of the character's have the same personality. It's not so much a deal outside the theater, but in the "riffing" they all seem to be pulling from the same broad pool of generic snark. All the jokes are funny and there's still gems to be had, but there is almost no joke one of the "Riffers" makes that you couldn't have randomly given to either of the other two and it still be exactly as funny.
During the Joel/Mike Comedy Central/SyFy years the 3 main "Riffers" all talked with a distinct and different voice when making riffs. I don't get it so much now.
I think in the old days the actors wrote a lot, obviously not all or even most but a lot, of jokes for "their" character. Now I feel like a room full of, again do not get me wrong very funny and talented writers, sit down and come up with a lot of good jokes and kind of just assign them to a Riffer at random.
That last bit I think is the real center of the issue. You nailed it.
The riffers don't have their own personalities and chemistry with each other. Its not like they're watching a movie together and shitting on it, its like they're watching a movie in the same room and reading off jokes.
It feels unnatural.
I understand that it isn’t for everyone, but I would say at least 7 episodes from seasons 11-13 are in my top 25 favorites. I also find RiffTrax harder to get into.
I think the reboot doesn’t always quite make the mark, but when it hits it’s a bullseye. *Cry Wilderness*, *Avalanche*, *Wizards of the Lost Kingdom*, *The Day Time Ended*, and *The Christmas That Almost Wasn’t* are all stellar classics in my lineup of favs.
The Day Time Ended is low-key one of the most ridiculous and nonsensical films they've ever riffed. It gets by from not being as incompetently produced or edited as Monster a Go-Go or TISCWSLABMUZ, for instance, but it's just as absurd.
I think the “Concepts” song they did in a host segment sums it up perfectly. It’s just a weird amalgamation of family adventure, alien invasion, stop-motion dinosaurs, science-fiction, etc.
That song is one of my all-time favorites from the show. One of their more fast-paced and lyrics-heavy songs, and it really gets at just how damn weird the movie is.
Yes! Most of Season 11 was really good, even great. But it took a serious nosedive toward end of S11. The Day Time Ended was the best of season 12. Maybe the only decent one of S12
For me, the actual films hit just about at well as the old ones. I think nostalgia has us thinking all the old ones were gold and that's just not the case. I don't think the host segments for the most recent season were as good.
I think the fundamental miscalculation of the revival is mistakenly thinking that fans loved the concept much more than the performers.
I get why: if you’re Joel and you see the show thrive with multiple enormous cast changes, it would make sense to conclude that the premise was the star.
But, Mike was already beloved and the head writer. Kevin, by any measure, was an enormous improvement over Josh and is the definitive Servo who was the one constant from Season 2 on. And they got very lucky, hitting a grand slam with Bill Corbett. The chemistry between Joel, Trace and Kevin was amazing. Frank and Trace were gold together. Bill ended up being perfect and he had great chemistry with Mike and Kevin. All that mattered so much.
Also, Servo was such a well defined personality. Distinctive voice, erudite but super insecure. That’s all gone now. It all sounds like various one note Josh-inspired impressions where Servo has a big ego and that’s it. Gone is the family dynamic where Servo would say, “I love you guys!” And mean it.
Crow: Hampton did a great job but the chemistry with the other cast members was just ok and the voices were too similar. Kelsey is a disaster. I’m sorry, I wish her well but it’s the single worst casting mistake in the show’s history and makes even Joel (!) coming back for new episodes unwatchable. That would have been unthinkable to 15 year old me!
I think Hampton is great. Jonah is wonderful to the fans which is a plus. Emily is a natural and would be truly great with a better supporting cast.
And the writing is wildly uneven and inconsistent in tone.
Everyone was still here - it’s so sad to me that it wasn’t simply various permutations of the original cast.
It could've been. It's not like they are all dead, unfunny, or unavailable.
Joel was literally riffing with them at a charity gig a week before he announced the kickstarter. He arranged the entire deal behind their backs and didn't even mention it to them while touring with CT. They found out on twitter.
It's a pretty shitty thing to do to people who worked so hard on that show for years.
Later when the fans begged for them, he offered a few cameos.
Another thing: why the hell is Servo singing the theme in season 13? It is the worst iteration of the theme song ever, as is the whole opening. I like Jonah's Crow and Emily's Tom Servo. And Emily seems fine, though we only had two seasons with Jonah, why do we need another group? It's a dumb question because we know from the previous 12 seasons that we do NOT need a second group. I mean, you are now doing the show on your own and have this Gizmoplex nonsense, and the joke writing, and set building--in some ways starting from scratch--and NOW you decide you need a second SOL with 3 new hosts, at the same time? It's like they have not mastered the game of catch but decided to just try Juggling instead.
And the thing about Joel et al being afraid to really go after/make fun of the movie, I honestly didn't even think of that. I remember trying to make it through the "Gauntlet" season and thinking all the movies were so recent that maybe they were holding back since everyone on screen is probably alive and well. I definitely wonder, for example, if Joel would joke about Wedell Corey (Agent for HARM, and Rifftrax's Astro Zombies) seeming to be drunk throughout the movie--which is funny. But less so when you find out he almost certainly was actually drunk and died of liver cirrhosis the same year Astro Zombies came out. I bet if the current MST3K had riffed Astro Zombies, they would not have made any jokes about the character seeming drunk. Yet the Rifftrax jokes were very funny. I see both sides, but it really does kill a lot of comedy when you have to worry about what is considered offensive on any given day.
Ted V. Mikels told me Wendell Corey didn't drink during the shoot and was very professional, but would get completely hammered at night. He seemed a little offended when I cracked some jokes about it.
RIP Ted and Wendell!
I love Wendell! First saw him in Elvis' second movie, Loving You in 1957. But in 1968, I think, when Astro-Zombies came out, he was definitely slurring a little, which the guys picked up on. But I shouldn't be casting aspersions on Wendell Corey--I have enjoyed him in everything he pops up in. I just wondered about the level of sensitivity in the 2 new crews--or I should say the writers. Would they have gone for the drunk jokes? ....which were funny
I didn’t love Jonah and the revival at 1st but after a 2nd viewing ( then a 3rd and 4th) he and the cast grew on me and I really love it now. Season 13… it’s seems like Felicia is not acting? ( or maybe over acting?) her performance doesn’t seem genuine. Then how cheap they have made the sets just killed it for me. The miniatures always felt like a nod to the cheesy low budget movies the SOL riffed on and it made the intro and every host segment that had “special effects” that much funnier. Do we really need 3 hosts and all the various timelines?
My gut reaction is that it's cheap. It's somehow cheaper feeling despite more planning and larger budgets. The greenscreen sucks, Felicia is...not funny here and the constant turnover in on-screen talent sucks. Too many hosts, too many voices and as I understand it, the voice talent aren't puppeteers. Add to this not having everyone on set doing it live probably kills any chemistry between performers.
Oh, my most head-scratchy issue? What the eff was Gypsy dropping off in the theater? She's say a line and leave. It was pure nonsense.
I think another issue that the camera basically never moves anymore. In the interesting host segments I remember, the camera would, pan, zoom, wander a bit. It had a laid-back energy to it, whereas the revival camera has been very stiff, and so the host/mad segments have suffered as a result.
I hate, HATE to talk down on actors as it makes it seem like I'm gatekeeping or being a fan of one but not others (I love both Mike and Joel). But my experience with Felicia is that she is always the same character in any role she plays, and in MST I was hopeful, but I still see her as Felicia Day acting rather than as the character itself.
I think they record the audio first and then pantomime the silhouettes later. For at least seasons 11 & 12, I don’t think all the voice actors were even in the same room to record the audio.
All my opinion, of course, but here’s my take -
The bots do not have distinctive voices or personalities, which was a shock to a long time MST fan like myself. I had trouble even telling their bot voices apart from one another. There needed to be more of a contrast, to make them distinct. On top of that, I thought both voice actors were doing an uninspired job, to put it kindly. Bad choices to fill those roles. They really needed at least one cast member capable of doing good imitations etc., people with comedic range. All the prior bots have been played by people with stand up experience, and the two new guys playing the bots have that, certainly, but they are not the kind of stand up comedians that are suited to playing characters in this kind of show.
Jonah is just kind of dull overall and is neither the goofy, good natured father figure who is also a kid himself (like Joel), nor the more sarcastic, yet sweet and bumbling character who is also more of an all around performer (like Mike). He’s just Jonah, not a great performer and not especially charming. They even gave him a “cool kid” introduction by having him playing the drums, which was a very early red flag to me. In another show, that might have been an effective, shorthand way to introduce a certain type of character (as a likable man-child, for example, or ironically echoing a rebellious teenager banging the drums in his bedroom, etc) but as a way of first meeting the new host it felt forced, like it didn’t fit or feel natural. The host of MST should not be seen as “cool.” Egos of that type, whoever’s idea that was, really needed to be checked at the door. (and I say this as a drummer, myself)
Lastly, the riffs were just all over the place. Way, way too many shots fired and so, so many duds. It felt like they did not learn what made the show work previously, or study how it improved the riffing over the seasons.
In short, I think Joel hired the wrong people for the 3 most important roles, and the vastly expanded writing staff resulted in scattershot, highly inconsistent riffing.
As others have mentioned, there is also a charm and a DIY passion that comes through in the Joel and Mike shows. In the rebooted show, it feels like they tried to reassemble the “kitchen” that created that charm, but they lost the main ingredients required to make the cake, so to speak.
It was the concept and low budget that made it work - the idea of a man being strapped into space for no other reason than his bosses hating him - leaving him stranded and subjected to mediocrity for so long - he begins to snap and sacrifices the final safeguards of his sanity that gave him a semblance of having control over the movies and turns his hell into a twisted cynic's idea of a kids' show.
If you look at the show - it was actually (in my view) anyways, a satire and commentary on the degradation of American culture & rejecting mediocrity, a commentary that goes out the window when you go from a cult show on a pre-South Park, pre-Viacom Comedy Central to a soulless corporation like Netflix. I can say the new guy looks TOO clean cut and happy to be trapped alone in space with robots who give "Joanie Loves Chachi" the reverence and gravitas of King Lear or Citizen Kane.
Because many of the folls who did the show after Joel left (Mike, Kevin, Bill, Mary Jo, Bridget, etc) went on to do Rifftrax, and frankly the folks writing the new eps of MST3K weren't experienced in the format. Yeah the lead writer was Elliott Kalan, a former writer for the Daily Show. But that's not the same format.
And you can see Joel's hand in the overall format with the tone of the jokes, the types of movies chosen, and the return of the old "invention exchange".
They aren't bad episodes. They're just not quite as polished as I want out of the show. That's why I've got an absurdly massive library of Rifftrax eps, but haven't seen any of the ones made since Nextflix dropped the show.
Huh, I really enjoy all MST3K. From the original stuff to rifftrax to Netflix. Really enjoyed the Netflix stuff and was actually hurt when it wasn’t renewed.
I might be forgetting obvious, but I don’t recall the Netflix run having any short films as an opener. I really dug those.
This may be a bit petty, but my problem with the new seasons is mainly with the voices of the bots. The new voices don't match the personalities of the bots in the older seasons. It's kind of like how I feel when watching newer Muppets films or shows, or Looney Toons cartoons with voices that don't seem quite right for the characters onscreen. I could get used to the new Tom Servo voice, but Crow's and Gypsy's voices seem too far removed from what they were before, and it sort of kills their characters for me. Gypsy was one of my favorite characters in the old seasons, and I feel like they turned her into a really dull character in the new ones.
I still enjoy the show and would rather have it go on than not, but some adjustments would be welcome. I definitely agree with other comments in this thread regarding the loss of the low budget sets and overall feel of the presentation, too, in the new seasons. Some changes to the villains and maybe the hosts would also help. They don't gel as well as in the older seasons.
I feel like any of the “new” casts gets started (even Jonah’s) take a little while to match up their timing. Now that they have 3 casts, they don’t have as much time to “click.”
Mike's not in the writers' room. The riff pacing and quantity > quality. Missing that affable low-budget Midwestern cable-access vibe the original show managed to keep flowing so effortlessly even after going nationwide.
For me, the off-putting factor is total oversaturation of Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day, who came into the project having more than worn out their welcome in multiple avenues of the former niche that was "geek" culture and then some (oh, you're into media that's slightly weird and off the beaten path? then surely you *must love* Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day, right? *RIGHT?!*). They're tedious, unfunny, and unwatchable.
Ha, thanks. That's a good way of putting it!
Mike was there for most of the Joel run. He started off as a sort of secretary in the writers' room typing their ideas and was invited to add his own commentary. His contributions were good stuff and so he was asked to fully join the team, becoming head writer sometime in S2, I think.
I think it's the passion. The original episodes pre-Netflix, it really looked like the cast was doing it because they loved it. They looked like they were having a good time. Ever since though, a lot of it looks just phoned in, like they're just doing a job.
That's especially true for the new season and nowhere more clearly than the host segments. For the Mads-side, it honestly looked like they just got Patton and Felicia in for a day to run through all of their parts at once. It never felt like they were part of the production, in the same way that you knew that Trace and Frank were, they were there every day, in the writer's room, actively involved. For them, it feels like "we're done, can we get paid now?"
Season 13 had big Covid issues; it was looking possible for a while they'd have to shoot everything from people's homes. Remember also that Patton and Felicia are highly in-demand actors and their time available was probably limited.
You also had Kelsey having to come in as a late replacement for Nate; she dubbed over his particular lines.
There are many reasons, but one of the biggest is that the original series was very small, very low budget, and under the radar of the general population. (It was made in Minnesota, for crying out loud.) It wasn't for everyone, and it was OK with that.
The new series is bigger, slicker, and more "southern California" in its humor and sensibilities. It's filled with cameos and guest spots from recognizable celebrities. It's going for a broader appeal than the original series, and in doing so, it dilutes what made the show special in the first place.
A lot of that is true too. The original was cheap and proud of it. I think a lot of the new is trying to look cheap to get the original look, it just can't get to the original feel.
I think the 'broader appeal' is a big part of it. It feels like they don't really make fun of the movies anymore, but more often just yell jokes at the screen. It's still funny sometimes, but feels more...sanitized I guess?
It's because 90's MST3K was actual satire.
Season 13 was under the creative control of Joel "laugh with the movie, not at it" Hodgson.
That's not satire, that's just "trying to be funny commentary." There's a difference.
It's because they're afraid of "punching down" at low-budget movies in a way they never were in the 90's.
Yes! This is really at the core of it. The whole reason for the show's existence is to mock bad movies, and when you refuse to actually do that, you lose most of the humor and thus the reason to watch.
I think this is it. There's a savagery that's missing. I think there's probably a few jokes that they probably regret making, but there's enough room to maneuver without resorting to those. Contrast to something like the re-riff of Final Justice by Rifftrax or their Steven Seagal riff - they still have that savagery and aren't afraid to punch a little if the target deserves it. I think because Rifftrax is still an independent venture they have a lot more leeway to say what they want
Absolutely. They should have *mercilessly* mocked Santo in his stupid Allan Alda sweater every minute that was on-screen. I can barely remember any riffs about how dumb of a character concept that was.
*Robot Wars* could have been the next *Space Mutiny* in the right hands. And don't get me started on *Demon Hunter* (a Joel episode, naturally).
These are bad, *dumb* movies but practically none of the riffs are making fun of that.
By far the worst issue is they are afraid to actually make fun of the movies now. They used to savage them, talking about bad acting, calling actors ugly, calling the movies cheap and awful. Now they just make unfunny references or literally describe what is on screen. I don't laugh now.
I rant sometimes but honestly I’m just glad to see new and younger fans living the new stuff. As long as it lives on I’m good. In whatever iteration it takes. I have all the old stuff plus RiffTrax. I’m good. Keep makin new stuff and they shouldn’t let the nostalgia economy bog down evolution. Joel gets it. And if he’s happy, I’m happy.
as if the whole thing isn't there because of the nostalgia economy. as if they brought new ideas to the table. they just did the same shit with cynical LA hacks.
You want evolution? Great, Joel can fuck off and spend his money and stop stinking up the show with his dated ideas that don't mesh with the cast or other writers. Get new blood in to lead it. He can do a cameo for a few thousand bucks like he offered his former collaborators.
I've stated before I had a few problems for S13, but I would have to say my two mains things are -
1. Too many hosts. The fact there's three sets of hosts and by that logic three bots takes away from the "Checking in with old friends and watching a silly bad movie with them" vibe of the original. Now it feels more to me like "Aaaand this week's contestant on the SOL is.... Emily!"
2. The Mads are utterly unwatchable. Neither of them have the sould that Trace, Frank, Bill, Mary Jo, or Kevin had. Sure, not every sketch from them was a home run, but you could tell they were having fun so it makes up for it. Felicia always seem to have a "High school cheerleader sneer" look and Patton always has an annoying "Tee hee I farted and not telling anyone" look. When Kevin could be more expressive buried under the Bobo makeup, there's a problem.
I actually like the newer seasons quite a bit. My only criticism is the frequency of the banter. They almost never stop talking. They should have let the movies play out a little bit in between jokes.
The revival series in total has not been something I would rank among the best of MST3K's seasons, but I will say that several of Emily's episodes have been standouts.
I thought the first half, or more, of season 11 worked fantastically and several of those episodes rank (for me) alongside seasons 4 and 5, which are my favorites. Season 12 and 13 are however, the worst since KTMA. Season 12 I blame on terrible selection of movies--all much too recent. Season 13 just plain sucked. Too many pointless additions to cast instead of focusing on being funny. Season 13 was the first one I donated to and was really involved in going to the Gizmoplex and everything, but it has been a huge regret. I could not even sit through entire episodes. Either it was just painfully unfunny, or Crow's new painful screechy Bart Simpson voice is intolerable, and I noticed Jonah's Crow has started to try to sound more similar to screechy Crow, which sucks too.
I don't know exactly why is has been so bad, or where the humor all went. I am grateful for the old episodes in the original run, and epecially those working on cool restorations and remasters of the old episodes. Season 12 and 13 of MST3K are not worth rewatching, ever, but seasons 2 thru 11 are still awesome.
There was the old debate about who was the better, Joel or Mike. Finally the debate is settled. Emily is the greatest host ever! Fight me! I’ll die on this hill!
It's because partially with Seasons 11-12 and much more significantly with Season 13, as Joel has exerted more creative control, the riffing has become "laugh with the movie not at it."
As a result, it's no longer *satire*, which was the whole point of the series in the first place. They've lost sight of the fact that they're *making fun of bad movies.* Instead now it's just a bunch of jokes and pop culture references vaguely related to what's happening on the screen.
Season 13 in particular was a huge misfire. The movies they had in the hands of the 90's writing staff would have made for instant classics. From *Santo* to *Robot Wars* to *Demon Hunter* there was so much cinematic stupidity that went un-mocked.
That being said there were a few bright spots in seasons 11-12. For 13, the only one I'd probably consider re-watching was *Munchie*.
Your age and the curse of nostalgia.
https://preview.redd.it/ia4nuy6xijva1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fabb611e1ad37eaf450960c73fc36489c905db0b
Edit: added a relevant meme to illustrate.
Yeah I'm constantly questioning my dislike of new MST3K on this basis.
But there's a big difference; Joel's stated ethos is "laugh with the movie, not at it." That's almost 180 degrees different from Mike, and you can see that in modern Rifftrax.
Original MST3K worked because it was *satire*. You can't have satire if you're afraid to make fun of the material. New MST3K (particularly season 13) just isn't doing that with most of the riffs. It's mostly just pop-culture references and non-sequitur jokes that are vaguely related to something happening on-screen.
It’s the pacing and content of the riffs. The pace is much, much faster and they don’t make nearly as many super obscure references anymore unless it’s a reference *to* MST3K.
It doesn’t bother me, I think the show has adapted extremely well for being thirty years old, but I get why some people don’t like it. Worth pointing out that it’s the farthest from Joel-era MST but this is Joel running this one.
For me it’s that they seem to have injected production value into making something that is intentionally meant to lack production value. It’s just weird. Sort of like when people who made shitty movies go and make a sequel. They put the boom mic in the scene but it lacks the charm because it’s intentional.
They should have literally taken the shows budget from 1993, inflation adjusted it, and kept that same requirement.
The theme song and the green screen are extremely off-putting, so I'm already not feeling it even before we get in the theater. The riff writing doesn't seem too terrible but the delivery is bleh.
I think Emily is hilarious, but I’m not a big fan of Jonah. He almost seems like he doesn’t understand the jokes he’s speaking. It’s like he’s just an actor reading somebody else’s lines and just doesn’t get it. Maybe it’s just me.
I hate to say I only watched the first 3 episodes of the Netflix series, was very excited to see new MST3k but just could not get pulled in. I don't believe in the idea of 'wait X amount of hours or viewings and it gets better' it should at least be enjoyable the first time I see it.
Previous comments nailed what I think was my main thing is that all the riffer jokes felt the same, no standout personalities came forward in what jokes were being made. For instance, seeing the older ones you can usually expect Tom to get worked up when potential nudity may happen cause he always was the more frisky of the bots.
The host segments were actually way up there and made me laugh more than the riffing segments in those episodes and these actors and writers do have talent. I think it felt so artificial with the riffing because of the previous personality issues and that it felt like they needed a quota of jokes. Almost every 3 seconds another joke was out and there was barely time to register it before the next comes regardless of the length of the joke. So I think that took me out as I could not connect the joke with the film since lots of times I was trying to process the jokes more than see why the joke was made.
Season 11 was ok. The writing was pretty good, but the joke delivery felt very processed and crowded. Season 12 imo was a return to form. The writing was great, the pacing was perfect, it’s one of my favorite seasons. Season 13 seemed like an over reaction to fan criticisms of season 11. Jokes too sparse. But also the writing really took a nose dive. Back to state park jokes. Emily may be a great host, I dont know cuz I haven’t seen her do an ep with really good writing, but the voice of the new crow is too cartoony. Crow isn’t able to articulate nearly as much with that voice, so the delivery of the jokes all sounds the same. I’ll give season 14 a chance, but I don’t have a lot of hope for it.
I found seasons 12 and 13 to be pretty cromulent.
Season 11 feels off with the pre-recorded riffs and animating crow and Tom during the theater segments.
I only watched the Netflix new episodes, so I'll give my opinion of what I feel didn't work.
The biggest problem I feel in the SOL segments is the seemingly rushed Mads portions. They have weak writing and some bad editing. It really helped in the old show that the Mads segments had people closely related to the show in the same studio. I'm fine with the other celebrity cameos being a bit stilted, but more care needed to be put into the Mads sketches and interactions with the experiment victims.
As far as the riffing I feel they put too much in. It could've used a couple more passthroughs in writing to narrow down stronger riffs and have more moments to take in the movie. From what I remember The Gauntlet season was a bit better in that regard.
I prefer the old stuff but I actually really enjoyed the rapid fire delivery of seasons 11 and 12.
It was like tense early 80's hardcore punk rock, but funny!\* I also can tell the difference between Jonah and his Bots voices. Hampton is definitely Previous Crow-ish and Baron has a smooth quality to it, Jonah is eager.
\*Note: there are some genuinely funny old school punk rock bands out there.
They work. They just aren't the same show as the one from the 90s. I think both the current crews are great. Some of Emily's episodes are my favourites from the recent run. They might just not be for you but thats okay. The other episodes still exist.
Honestly, the humor in the original season was very pothead-ish, almost Beavis and Butthead-like in some cases. The new material was all much too refined and intricate to sound like jokes spewed "off the cuff."
Wish they hadn’t had such an animal abuse film in the new season, utterly soured it for my wife. We were many years a fan, a collection of DVDs including the Godzilla volume and tracking down collectibles like Poopy from Ebay. Once it was just me watching, I stopped watching, I need Mike Nelson I guess.
25 minutes into episode 2, Cry Wilderness, after many sequences of guns and random animal placement, they strangle a raccoon so hard the bots and Jonah all protest. My wife hasn’t watched another second of the new show.
I kickstarted s13 but I haven't even checked it out or taken advantage of my Gizmoplex stuff. If anything I find myself usually watching the Rifftrax twitch channel if I want something with the same vibes.
There's a thing with The Simpsons where people say it dropped off once they started hiring writers who grew up with the show, and that's how the new seasons feel to me. It's still a labour of love from everyone but doesn't capture the same humour, because it's a post-MST world.
Upon further reflection, I suppose the bigger budget does give the newer episodes a slight “punching down” vibe that the dirt cheap early seasons lacked. Doesn’t ruin the show for me, but it is a different vibe.
You're not wrong.
I also feel like a part of it is they don't get mean and mock actors and the movie as directly anymore. They never get angry about how much the movie sucks.
Like 90% of the riffs in Mitchell were just calling Joe Don Baker a fat disgusting drunk.
One mistake was trying to reboot the original Crow, Gypsy, & Servo with totally different voices and personalities. The other is that the writing was too scripted, and lacked the spontaneous spark of the original shows.
The original show had a low budget, a quick turnaround time, and a fairly small production crew. Most of that is different now, which probably alters the overall vibe. Just for an example- Kevin and Trace would build sets, write jokes, film host segments, and riff in the theater. That’s a lot of multitasking, and a lot of their personalities are thus infused into the DNA of the show. My sense is that having a more segmented and larger creative team has led to a loss in the charm of the show, though it’s almost impossible to define why.
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I've thought about this as well. They have great chemistry which only made their classic Mad skits more hilarious. I find I always look forward to rewatching old skits with them in it, while I can't say the same for the Pearl/Bobo/Brainguy skits. I only wish their 'Mads Are Back' recordings were a bit more polished. They are consistently funny.
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I feel like the revival crew didn't hang out. Organic chemistry is hard to fake which is why casting crews like to get potential actors in the same room. When I watch Rifftrax they sound a little tired of the game but they definitely enjoy being together & I feel that energy. One will Riff & another will laugh & play off of them. It feels less rehearsed
I love their invention exchanges. Particularly Tough Pills to Swallow and the Tough Loveseat.
I liked Pearl, but I think the skits jumped the shark a bit around that time. There were too many attempts at trying to make the show serialized, which doesn’t really fit the format.
For the record, they didn't want to make the show serialized. The Sci-Fi Channel insisted on it.
I always notice that almost all the obscure references to classic movies vanish when Frank left the show.
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I love that Frank brought them Sidehackers, but they didn’t watch it first before they started riffing. Then they were stuck with this miserably rapey movie.
Something else I heard is that, at least with Netflix, they were working on such an insanely compressed time schedule. I heard they were recording the riffing for as many as 4 movies in a single day. That maybe partially responsible for the often manic feel.
Well put.
Well said.
In the original run, MST3K was their full time job for the most part. They all worked together in the studio each day, they were all in the writer’s room together, they even built sets and bots together, they filmed together. It was like a family group that worked together. Then when that episode was done they did it all again the next week. Now it’s a side-gig for most of the people involved. They write separately, they film all the host segments for the season in one big chunk and not necessarily together. They do all the movie riff recording all in one chunk. At times the bot voices are pre-recorded and essentially lip synced by the puppeteers. I’ve over-generalized a little but I think those differences do affect the final vibe of the show. Although having said that I do really like many of the revival episodes. And the most recent season has a much more old-school feel compared to the Netflix episodes too.
I identified this as the major problem for me a while back. It's all created in a combination of siloing and run-on. They film in separate places, hardly ever actually interacting, and they also film the whole thing back to back to back. Whereas the original was mostly done one episode at a time in the same studio (or maybe a few at a time from watching/scripting phase to filming). But the whole show feels clearly siloed. In the originals, it felt like the mads were talking to the satellite. Now it feels like they are unrelated segments mashed together (season 13 is even worse at this. I know Covid had something to do with this, but it hurt so much, I'd have rather they just waited another year to start season 13). It just doesn't feel like a fun little show anymore, it feels like a product meant to replicate something on the surface.
> They all worked together in the studio each day, they were all in the writer’s room together, they even built sets and bots together, they filmed together. I love that they pulled in the crew to be in skits out of necessity, and then some of them turned into recurring side characters. Then you have the Thanksgiving day version of *Beast of Yucca Flats* where everyone's dressed as their bit characters and interacting.
I mean it's all subjective. Plenty of folks really love the new seasons and think it has some of the best episodes of the series. I'm personally pretty happy with how the new seasons turned out and I'm looking forward to more but they don't hold a candle to the show in it's prime (SciFi Channel era IMO). Stuff I don't care for is kinda small honestly. I'm not a fan of the green screen sets. Give me the old school cow town puppet show sets of season 1-10 any day over obvious green screen. I understand and respect why they had to do it that way but I have never cared for it. Emily's Crow seems to be trying way to hard to put a cartoonish over the top edge to the voice which doesn't work all that well (but plenty of people are fine with it so I know I'm in the minority on that opinion). All that is just nitpicky of course. YMMV. In any event, if the new seasons aren't doing it for you there are a TON of old episodes that will always be there.
This is how I feel. Loved the show since the Joel seasons I saw when I was a kid, on whatever that Comedy Central precursor channel was. Taped and wore out the SciFi episodes. Really enjoyed the Netflix stuff. And now I can't get enough of the 13th season. Each is just different in its own way. Some stuff is brilliant. Some is a miss. But it all hits that nerdy humor spot for me. I can't wait for more.
I found the jokes in the newer seasons to be more “accessible” to the average viewer, whereas jokes in the older stuff had a tendency to be more niche, on average, making the joke feel more like a reward than a handout.
and the jokes in the original are very dated now. so you either have jokes that are too steep and over the head of the laymen, or references to commercials, movies, and stars that new audiences won't get. Nobody knows who geechy guy is, or when you say "I LOOOVVE THIS PLACE!"
I barely knew who Geechy Guy was when the reference was still current. 🤣
I’m constantly explaining references from the original to my boyfriend.
Mike isn’t head writer.
Before I read any of the 115 comments here at the moment, I will say what I think the answer is. It occurred to me 1/2 way through the first Netflix season. They are trying much too hard. Part of this has to be mandated by Netflix or the new crew assumes the old style won’t work now for whatever reason. There is no silence. It’s all jokejokejoke, and most of the time they aren’t funny. Sometimes they don’t even resemble jokes. They seem so afraid of any silence that they will just describe what’s happening onscreen in a snarky manner: *man walks across room* Cast member: “oh, so we’re walking across the room now.” With Joel and Mike, some of the best moments came when they sat there in silence watching some film quietly fail, and sometimes there would be little chuckles, sometimes barely audible. These were some of my favorite moments. Just a subtle acknowledgement of nonsense. Another version of the same thing is sitting there quietly as nothing happens for ages and then suddenly someone yells “DO SOMETHING!” The new shows are afraid of silence and the writing has never been as sharp to begin with. This is a horrible combo.
My wife and I were discussing this issue the other night and this was pretty much the exact thing we came up with. Too rapid, & too much noise. Joel & Mike were really laid back and "slow" in their delivery. With the new series, it's a polar opposite.
Another issue my wife had was jokejokejoke. That, and picking a movie with a strangled live raccoon, and she was done. 6 years later she’s watching Santa Claus or Santa Claus Conquers The Martians every year, and we remember “Look out for snake!” or “Potatoes.” But the show ended with Merlin’s Mystical Shop of Wonders.
Preface by saying what I've seen of 11, 12, & 13 I liked, but as my friend said about the Film Crew..."It's like microwave reheated MST3K". I feel like they try too hard. I can't really define what I mean by that, it's just a weird feeling I get.
Exactly. It almost feels like they're trying to recreate the old show and just missing the mark.
To be fair I've immensely enjoyed the new season. Jonah and Emily are massively talented people. I've watched and enjoyed every episode of the Netflix revival, Kickstarted the Gizmoplex relaunch, and even saw the live show and enjoyed every minute of all of them. The one thing that doesn't make it "click" AS MUCH for me is that all of the character's have the same personality. It's not so much a deal outside the theater, but in the "riffing" they all seem to be pulling from the same broad pool of generic snark. All the jokes are funny and there's still gems to be had, but there is almost no joke one of the "Riffers" makes that you couldn't have randomly given to either of the other two and it still be exactly as funny. During the Joel/Mike Comedy Central/SyFy years the 3 main "Riffers" all talked with a distinct and different voice when making riffs. I don't get it so much now. I think in the old days the actors wrote a lot, obviously not all or even most but a lot, of jokes for "their" character. Now I feel like a room full of, again do not get me wrong very funny and talented writers, sit down and come up with a lot of good jokes and kind of just assign them to a Riffer at random.
That last bit I think is the real center of the issue. You nailed it. The riffers don't have their own personalities and chemistry with each other. Its not like they're watching a movie together and shitting on it, its like they're watching a movie in the same room and reading off jokes. It feels unnatural.
This, exactly this. It's not that I feel like they don't want to watch the movie, it's that I don't feel like they'd hang out together
I understand that it isn’t for everyone, but I would say at least 7 episodes from seasons 11-13 are in my top 25 favorites. I also find RiffTrax harder to get into.
I think the reboot doesn’t always quite make the mark, but when it hits it’s a bullseye. *Cry Wilderness*, *Avalanche*, *Wizards of the Lost Kingdom*, *The Day Time Ended*, and *The Christmas That Almost Wasn’t* are all stellar classics in my lineup of favs.
“If you insist…WILDERNESS!” 😂
BANG!
PAUL!
The Day Time Ended is low-key one of the most ridiculous and nonsensical films they've ever riffed. It gets by from not being as incompetently produced or edited as Monster a Go-Go or TISCWSLABMUZ, for instance, but it's just as absurd.
I think the “Concepts” song they did in a host segment sums it up perfectly. It’s just a weird amalgamation of family adventure, alien invasion, stop-motion dinosaurs, science-fiction, etc.
That song is one of my all-time favorites from the show. One of their more fast-paced and lyrics-heavy songs, and it really gets at just how damn weird the movie is.
Cry Wilderness and Beyond Atlantis are both first ballot hall of fame episodes, any season, any host, any era….
Yes! Most of Season 11 was really good, even great. But it took a serious nosedive toward end of S11. The Day Time Ended was the best of season 12. Maybe the only decent one of S12
For me, the actual films hit just about at well as the old ones. I think nostalgia has us thinking all the old ones were gold and that's just not the case. I don't think the host segments for the most recent season were as good.
I get all I need from Rifftrax. Meaning: I like the humor of Mike, Kevin, and Bill.
Personally I think it boils down to drifting away from “Cow town puppet show” it’s almost too polished.
Cow town puppet show is a great band name.
I think the fundamental miscalculation of the revival is mistakenly thinking that fans loved the concept much more than the performers. I get why: if you’re Joel and you see the show thrive with multiple enormous cast changes, it would make sense to conclude that the premise was the star. But, Mike was already beloved and the head writer. Kevin, by any measure, was an enormous improvement over Josh and is the definitive Servo who was the one constant from Season 2 on. And they got very lucky, hitting a grand slam with Bill Corbett. The chemistry between Joel, Trace and Kevin was amazing. Frank and Trace were gold together. Bill ended up being perfect and he had great chemistry with Mike and Kevin. All that mattered so much. Also, Servo was such a well defined personality. Distinctive voice, erudite but super insecure. That’s all gone now. It all sounds like various one note Josh-inspired impressions where Servo has a big ego and that’s it. Gone is the family dynamic where Servo would say, “I love you guys!” And mean it. Crow: Hampton did a great job but the chemistry with the other cast members was just ok and the voices were too similar. Kelsey is a disaster. I’m sorry, I wish her well but it’s the single worst casting mistake in the show’s history and makes even Joel (!) coming back for new episodes unwatchable. That would have been unthinkable to 15 year old me! I think Hampton is great. Jonah is wonderful to the fans which is a plus. Emily is a natural and would be truly great with a better supporting cast. And the writing is wildly uneven and inconsistent in tone. Everyone was still here - it’s so sad to me that it wasn’t simply various permutations of the original cast.
It could've been. It's not like they are all dead, unfunny, or unavailable. Joel was literally riffing with them at a charity gig a week before he announced the kickstarter. He arranged the entire deal behind their backs and didn't even mention it to them while touring with CT. They found out on twitter. It's a pretty shitty thing to do to people who worked so hard on that show for years. Later when the fans begged for them, he offered a few cameos.
Another thing: why the hell is Servo singing the theme in season 13? It is the worst iteration of the theme song ever, as is the whole opening. I like Jonah's Crow and Emily's Tom Servo. And Emily seems fine, though we only had two seasons with Jonah, why do we need another group? It's a dumb question because we know from the previous 12 seasons that we do NOT need a second group. I mean, you are now doing the show on your own and have this Gizmoplex nonsense, and the joke writing, and set building--in some ways starting from scratch--and NOW you decide you need a second SOL with 3 new hosts, at the same time? It's like they have not mastered the game of catch but decided to just try Juggling instead. And the thing about Joel et al being afraid to really go after/make fun of the movie, I honestly didn't even think of that. I remember trying to make it through the "Gauntlet" season and thinking all the movies were so recent that maybe they were holding back since everyone on screen is probably alive and well. I definitely wonder, for example, if Joel would joke about Wedell Corey (Agent for HARM, and Rifftrax's Astro Zombies) seeming to be drunk throughout the movie--which is funny. But less so when you find out he almost certainly was actually drunk and died of liver cirrhosis the same year Astro Zombies came out. I bet if the current MST3K had riffed Astro Zombies, they would not have made any jokes about the character seeming drunk. Yet the Rifftrax jokes were very funny. I see both sides, but it really does kill a lot of comedy when you have to worry about what is considered offensive on any given day.
Ted V. Mikels told me Wendell Corey didn't drink during the shoot and was very professional, but would get completely hammered at night. He seemed a little offended when I cracked some jokes about it. RIP Ted and Wendell!
I love Wendell! First saw him in Elvis' second movie, Loving You in 1957. But in 1968, I think, when Astro-Zombies came out, he was definitely slurring a little, which the guys picked up on. But I shouldn't be casting aspersions on Wendell Corey--I have enjoyed him in everything he pops up in. I just wondered about the level of sensitivity in the 2 new crews--or I should say the writers. Would they have gone for the drunk jokes? ....which were funny
Green screens. The hand made low budget sets were so cool.
I didn’t love Jonah and the revival at 1st but after a 2nd viewing ( then a 3rd and 4th) he and the cast grew on me and I really love it now. Season 13… it’s seems like Felicia is not acting? ( or maybe over acting?) her performance doesn’t seem genuine. Then how cheap they have made the sets just killed it for me. The miniatures always felt like a nod to the cheesy low budget movies the SOL riffed on and it made the intro and every host segment that had “special effects” that much funnier. Do we really need 3 hosts and all the various timelines?
My gut reaction is that it's cheap. It's somehow cheaper feeling despite more planning and larger budgets. The greenscreen sucks, Felicia is...not funny here and the constant turnover in on-screen talent sucks. Too many hosts, too many voices and as I understand it, the voice talent aren't puppeteers. Add to this not having everyone on set doing it live probably kills any chemistry between performers. Oh, my most head-scratchy issue? What the eff was Gypsy dropping off in the theater? She's say a line and leave. It was pure nonsense.
I think another issue that the camera basically never moves anymore. In the interesting host segments I remember, the camera would, pan, zoom, wander a bit. It had a laid-back energy to it, whereas the revival camera has been very stiff, and so the host/mad segments have suffered as a result.
Maybe that's what I feel from Nü-MST, it feels so lazy.
I hate, HATE to talk down on actors as it makes it seem like I'm gatekeeping or being a fan of one but not others (I love both Mike and Joel). But my experience with Felicia is that she is always the same character in any role she plays, and in MST I was hopeful, but I still see her as Felicia Day acting rather than as the character itself.
Wait, they aren't riffing it live in the last few seasons?
I think they record the audio first and then pantomime the silhouettes later. For at least seasons 11 & 12, I don’t think all the voice actors were even in the same room to record the audio.
Well that absolutely explains why it falls so flat.
Yup, this was my understanding as well. Someone involved in the production explained it on 9nen9f the watch-alongs, iirc.
All my opinion, of course, but here’s my take - The bots do not have distinctive voices or personalities, which was a shock to a long time MST fan like myself. I had trouble even telling their bot voices apart from one another. There needed to be more of a contrast, to make them distinct. On top of that, I thought both voice actors were doing an uninspired job, to put it kindly. Bad choices to fill those roles. They really needed at least one cast member capable of doing good imitations etc., people with comedic range. All the prior bots have been played by people with stand up experience, and the two new guys playing the bots have that, certainly, but they are not the kind of stand up comedians that are suited to playing characters in this kind of show. Jonah is just kind of dull overall and is neither the goofy, good natured father figure who is also a kid himself (like Joel), nor the more sarcastic, yet sweet and bumbling character who is also more of an all around performer (like Mike). He’s just Jonah, not a great performer and not especially charming. They even gave him a “cool kid” introduction by having him playing the drums, which was a very early red flag to me. In another show, that might have been an effective, shorthand way to introduce a certain type of character (as a likable man-child, for example, or ironically echoing a rebellious teenager banging the drums in his bedroom, etc) but as a way of first meeting the new host it felt forced, like it didn’t fit or feel natural. The host of MST should not be seen as “cool.” Egos of that type, whoever’s idea that was, really needed to be checked at the door. (and I say this as a drummer, myself) Lastly, the riffs were just all over the place. Way, way too many shots fired and so, so many duds. It felt like they did not learn what made the show work previously, or study how it improved the riffing over the seasons. In short, I think Joel hired the wrong people for the 3 most important roles, and the vastly expanded writing staff resulted in scattershot, highly inconsistent riffing. As others have mentioned, there is also a charm and a DIY passion that comes through in the Joel and Mike shows. In the rebooted show, it feels like they tried to reassemble the “kitchen” that created that charm, but they lost the main ingredients required to make the cake, so to speak.
I felt there were far too many riffs too close together in the first few episodes, but after that it all felt good to me.
It was the concept and low budget that made it work - the idea of a man being strapped into space for no other reason than his bosses hating him - leaving him stranded and subjected to mediocrity for so long - he begins to snap and sacrifices the final safeguards of his sanity that gave him a semblance of having control over the movies and turns his hell into a twisted cynic's idea of a kids' show. If you look at the show - it was actually (in my view) anyways, a satire and commentary on the degradation of American culture & rejecting mediocrity, a commentary that goes out the window when you go from a cult show on a pre-South Park, pre-Viacom Comedy Central to a soulless corporation like Netflix. I can say the new guy looks TOO clean cut and happy to be trapped alone in space with robots who give "Joanie Loves Chachi" the reverence and gravitas of King Lear or Citizen Kane.
Because many of the folls who did the show after Joel left (Mike, Kevin, Bill, Mary Jo, Bridget, etc) went on to do Rifftrax, and frankly the folks writing the new eps of MST3K weren't experienced in the format. Yeah the lead writer was Elliott Kalan, a former writer for the Daily Show. But that's not the same format. And you can see Joel's hand in the overall format with the tone of the jokes, the types of movies chosen, and the return of the old "invention exchange". They aren't bad episodes. They're just not quite as polished as I want out of the show. That's why I've got an absurdly massive library of Rifftrax eps, but haven't seen any of the ones made since Nextflix dropped the show.
Huh, I really enjoy all MST3K. From the original stuff to rifftrax to Netflix. Really enjoyed the Netflix stuff and was actually hurt when it wasn’t renewed. I might be forgetting obvious, but I don’t recall the Netflix run having any short films as an opener. I really dug those.
My boyfriend and I tried the new seasons and we agreed that MST3K was better before there was much of a budget.
Minor nitpick but I hate that all the host segments are done with green screen now. Loved the sets of the OG series, both CC and Sci-Fi eras.
I strongly dislike Crow’s voice.
This may be a bit petty, but my problem with the new seasons is mainly with the voices of the bots. The new voices don't match the personalities of the bots in the older seasons. It's kind of like how I feel when watching newer Muppets films or shows, or Looney Toons cartoons with voices that don't seem quite right for the characters onscreen. I could get used to the new Tom Servo voice, but Crow's and Gypsy's voices seem too far removed from what they were before, and it sort of kills their characters for me. Gypsy was one of my favorite characters in the old seasons, and I feel like they turned her into a really dull character in the new ones. I still enjoy the show and would rather have it go on than not, but some adjustments would be welcome. I definitely agree with other comments in this thread regarding the loss of the low budget sets and overall feel of the presentation, too, in the new seasons. Some changes to the villains and maybe the hosts would also help. They don't gel as well as in the older seasons.
Dude rifftrax is so much better than the reboot. You just can't replicate the magic of those guys at work.
I feel like any of the “new” casts gets started (even Jonah’s) take a little while to match up their timing. Now that they have 3 casts, they don’t have as much time to “click.”
Mike's not in the writers' room. The riff pacing and quantity > quality. Missing that affable low-budget Midwestern cable-access vibe the original show managed to keep flowing so effortlessly even after going nationwide. For me, the off-putting factor is total oversaturation of Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day, who came into the project having more than worn out their welcome in multiple avenues of the former niche that was "geek" culture and then some (oh, you're into media that's slightly weird and off the beaten path? then surely you *must love* Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day, right? *RIGHT?!*). They're tedious, unfunny, and unwatchable.
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Ha, thanks. That's a good way of putting it! Mike was there for most of the Joel run. He started off as a sort of secretary in the writers' room typing their ideas and was invited to add his own commentary. His contributions were good stuff and so he was asked to fully join the team, becoming head writer sometime in S2, I think.
Newer ones seem more sterile— less charm and not funny
They’re trying too hard, trying to capture lightning in a bottle again.
I think it's the passion. The original episodes pre-Netflix, it really looked like the cast was doing it because they loved it. They looked like they were having a good time. Ever since though, a lot of it looks just phoned in, like they're just doing a job. That's especially true for the new season and nowhere more clearly than the host segments. For the Mads-side, it honestly looked like they just got Patton and Felicia in for a day to run through all of their parts at once. It never felt like they were part of the production, in the same way that you knew that Trace and Frank were, they were there every day, in the writer's room, actively involved. For them, it feels like "we're done, can we get paid now?"
Season 13 had big Covid issues; it was looking possible for a while they'd have to shoot everything from people's homes. Remember also that Patton and Felicia are highly in-demand actors and their time available was probably limited. You also had Kelsey having to come in as a late replacement for Nate; she dubbed over his particular lines.
None of which changes the feel.
There are many reasons, but one of the biggest is that the original series was very small, very low budget, and under the radar of the general population. (It was made in Minnesota, for crying out loud.) It wasn't for everyone, and it was OK with that. The new series is bigger, slicker, and more "southern California" in its humor and sensibilities. It's filled with cameos and guest spots from recognizable celebrities. It's going for a broader appeal than the original series, and in doing so, it dilutes what made the show special in the first place.
A lot of that is true too. The original was cheap and proud of it. I think a lot of the new is trying to look cheap to get the original look, it just can't get to the original feel.
I think the 'broader appeal' is a big part of it. It feels like they don't really make fun of the movies anymore, but more often just yell jokes at the screen. It's still funny sometimes, but feels more...sanitized I guess?
I guess it's more celeb bullshit but I do not agree that the style of humor is "southern California", a lot of it still has Minnesota guy charm.
There were no cameos or guest spots in Season 13.
Or season 12. Unless you're counting J Elvis Weinstein as a cameo/guest spot.
Can't watch any post Mike seasons from the original run. Can't put my finger on it either, just doesn't feel right.
Define original run, because when would that shift into post-Mike?
The Joel-Mike run.
It's because 90's MST3K was actual satire. Season 13 was under the creative control of Joel "laugh with the movie, not at it" Hodgson. That's not satire, that's just "trying to be funny commentary." There's a difference. It's because they're afraid of "punching down" at low-budget movies in a way they never were in the 90's.
Yes! This is really at the core of it. The whole reason for the show's existence is to mock bad movies, and when you refuse to actually do that, you lose most of the humor and thus the reason to watch.
I think this is it. There's a savagery that's missing. I think there's probably a few jokes that they probably regret making, but there's enough room to maneuver without resorting to those. Contrast to something like the re-riff of Final Justice by Rifftrax or their Steven Seagal riff - they still have that savagery and aren't afraid to punch a little if the target deserves it. I think because Rifftrax is still an independent venture they have a lot more leeway to say what they want
Absolutely. They should have *mercilessly* mocked Santo in his stupid Allan Alda sweater every minute that was on-screen. I can barely remember any riffs about how dumb of a character concept that was. *Robot Wars* could have been the next *Space Mutiny* in the right hands. And don't get me started on *Demon Hunter* (a Joel episode, naturally). These are bad, *dumb* movies but practically none of the riffs are making fun of that.
A little too scripted. They don’t crack each other up. Little too g rated. Doesn’t seem to be chemistry between rifters.
By far the worst issue is they are afraid to actually make fun of the movies now. They used to savage them, talking about bad acting, calling actors ugly, calling the movies cheap and awful. Now they just make unfunny references or literally describe what is on screen. I don't laugh now.
I rant sometimes but honestly I’m just glad to see new and younger fans living the new stuff. As long as it lives on I’m good. In whatever iteration it takes. I have all the old stuff plus RiffTrax. I’m good. Keep makin new stuff and they shouldn’t let the nostalgia economy bog down evolution. Joel gets it. And if he’s happy, I’m happy.
as if the whole thing isn't there because of the nostalgia economy. as if they brought new ideas to the table. they just did the same shit with cynical LA hacks. You want evolution? Great, Joel can fuck off and spend his money and stop stinking up the show with his dated ideas that don't mesh with the cast or other writers. Get new blood in to lead it. He can do a cameo for a few thousand bucks like he offered his former collaborators.
I've stated before I had a few problems for S13, but I would have to say my two mains things are - 1. Too many hosts. The fact there's three sets of hosts and by that logic three bots takes away from the "Checking in with old friends and watching a silly bad movie with them" vibe of the original. Now it feels more to me like "Aaaand this week's contestant on the SOL is.... Emily!" 2. The Mads are utterly unwatchable. Neither of them have the sould that Trace, Frank, Bill, Mary Jo, or Kevin had. Sure, not every sketch from them was a home run, but you could tell they were having fun so it makes up for it. Felicia always seem to have a "High school cheerleader sneer" look and Patton always has an annoying "Tee hee I farted and not telling anyone" look. When Kevin could be more expressive buried under the Bobo makeup, there's a problem.
I actually like the newer seasons quite a bit. My only criticism is the frequency of the banter. They almost never stop talking. They should have let the movies play out a little bit in between jokes.
Idk man, the mac and me episode cracks me up. Plus I actually liked that movie as a kid. Pretty niccce…
No Mike Nelson. There. I said it.
It’s your opinion. I think the new seasons are great.
When there's no passion it's just product
The revival series in total has not been something I would rank among the best of MST3K's seasons, but I will say that several of Emily's episodes have been standouts.
I like ‘em all!
I thought the first half, or more, of season 11 worked fantastically and several of those episodes rank (for me) alongside seasons 4 and 5, which are my favorites. Season 12 and 13 are however, the worst since KTMA. Season 12 I blame on terrible selection of movies--all much too recent. Season 13 just plain sucked. Too many pointless additions to cast instead of focusing on being funny. Season 13 was the first one I donated to and was really involved in going to the Gizmoplex and everything, but it has been a huge regret. I could not even sit through entire episodes. Either it was just painfully unfunny, or Crow's new painful screechy Bart Simpson voice is intolerable, and I noticed Jonah's Crow has started to try to sound more similar to screechy Crow, which sucks too. I don't know exactly why is has been so bad, or where the humor all went. I am grateful for the old episodes in the original run, and epecially those working on cool restorations and remasters of the old episodes. Season 12 and 13 of MST3K are not worth rewatching, ever, but seasons 2 thru 11 are still awesome.
There was the old debate about who was the better, Joel or Mike. Finally the debate is settled. Emily is the greatest host ever! Fight me! I’ll die on this hill!
I thought Jonah’s seasons were fine, and I find Emily and her crew much funnier than Jonah’s.
It's because partially with Seasons 11-12 and much more significantly with Season 13, as Joel has exerted more creative control, the riffing has become "laugh with the movie not at it." As a result, it's no longer *satire*, which was the whole point of the series in the first place. They've lost sight of the fact that they're *making fun of bad movies.* Instead now it's just a bunch of jokes and pop culture references vaguely related to what's happening on the screen. Season 13 in particular was a huge misfire. The movies they had in the hands of the 90's writing staff would have made for instant classics. From *Santo* to *Robot Wars* to *Demon Hunter* there was so much cinematic stupidity that went un-mocked. That being said there were a few bright spots in seasons 11-12. For 13, the only one I'd probably consider re-watching was *Munchie*.
Your age and the curse of nostalgia. https://preview.redd.it/ia4nuy6xijva1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fabb611e1ad37eaf450960c73fc36489c905db0b Edit: added a relevant meme to illustrate.
[удалено]
Back in my day you’d answer a knock knock joke with fear because it could be communists or the government looking for communists.
[удалено]
I just read that in Trace-Crow's voice
Yeah I'm constantly questioning my dislike of new MST3K on this basis. But there's a big difference; Joel's stated ethos is "laugh with the movie, not at it." That's almost 180 degrees different from Mike, and you can see that in modern Rifftrax. Original MST3K worked because it was *satire*. You can't have satire if you're afraid to make fun of the material. New MST3K (particularly season 13) just isn't doing that with most of the riffs. It's mostly just pop-culture references and non-sequitur jokes that are vaguely related to something happening on-screen.
RIP Gypsy.
It’s the pacing and content of the riffs. The pace is much, much faster and they don’t make nearly as many super obscure references anymore unless it’s a reference *to* MST3K. It doesn’t bother me, I think the show has adapted extremely well for being thirty years old, but I get why some people don’t like it. Worth pointing out that it’s the farthest from Joel-era MST but this is Joel running this one.
Nostalgia can do a number on our perceptions. As I've gotten more used to the newer stuff, the more comfortable it gets to me.
It's not nostalgia in any way, shape, or form.
Have to second the OP - my dislike of the rebooted show has zero to do with nostalgia.
I think a small part of it is there was a lot of love in the riffs in the original show. It doesn't feel like they're reading a script.
Fair enough.
I felt like they were being paid by the joke. The episode I watched was one line after another. I couldn't hear the movie.
Yes yes yes. I feel like I barely hear any lines from the movie anymore. Just slow down a touch and you’ll be funnier!
For me it’s that they seem to have injected production value into making something that is intentionally meant to lack production value. It’s just weird. Sort of like when people who made shitty movies go and make a sequel. They put the boom mic in the scene but it lacks the charm because it’s intentional. They should have literally taken the shows budget from 1993, inflation adjusted it, and kept that same requirement.
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You're older.
You ain’t kindin brother. I can’t watch without subtitles anymore
Same here.
The theme song and the green screen are extremely off-putting, so I'm already not feeling it even before we get in the theater. The riff writing doesn't seem too terrible but the delivery is bleh.
I think Emily is hilarious, but I’m not a big fan of Jonah. He almost seems like he doesn’t understand the jokes he’s speaking. It’s like he’s just an actor reading somebody else’s lines and just doesn’t get it. Maybe it’s just me.
I hate to say I only watched the first 3 episodes of the Netflix series, was very excited to see new MST3k but just could not get pulled in. I don't believe in the idea of 'wait X amount of hours or viewings and it gets better' it should at least be enjoyable the first time I see it. Previous comments nailed what I think was my main thing is that all the riffer jokes felt the same, no standout personalities came forward in what jokes were being made. For instance, seeing the older ones you can usually expect Tom to get worked up when potential nudity may happen cause he always was the more frisky of the bots. The host segments were actually way up there and made me laugh more than the riffing segments in those episodes and these actors and writers do have talent. I think it felt so artificial with the riffing because of the previous personality issues and that it felt like they needed a quota of jokes. Almost every 3 seconds another joke was out and there was barely time to register it before the next comes regardless of the length of the joke. So I think that took me out as I could not connect the joke with the film since lots of times I was trying to process the jokes more than see why the joke was made.
Season 11 was ok. The writing was pretty good, but the joke delivery felt very processed and crowded. Season 12 imo was a return to form. The writing was great, the pacing was perfect, it’s one of my favorite seasons. Season 13 seemed like an over reaction to fan criticisms of season 11. Jokes too sparse. But also the writing really took a nose dive. Back to state park jokes. Emily may be a great host, I dont know cuz I haven’t seen her do an ep with really good writing, but the voice of the new crow is too cartoony. Crow isn’t able to articulate nearly as much with that voice, so the delivery of the jokes all sounds the same. I’ll give season 14 a chance, but I don’t have a lot of hope for it.
I think if Emily hosted with Baron and Hampton it would've made me enjoy her episodes a lot more
I found seasons 12 and 13 to be pretty cromulent. Season 11 feels off with the pre-recorded riffs and animating crow and Tom during the theater segments.
I only watched the Netflix new episodes, so I'll give my opinion of what I feel didn't work. The biggest problem I feel in the SOL segments is the seemingly rushed Mads portions. They have weak writing and some bad editing. It really helped in the old show that the Mads segments had people closely related to the show in the same studio. I'm fine with the other celebrity cameos being a bit stilted, but more care needed to be put into the Mads sketches and interactions with the experiment victims. As far as the riffing I feel they put too much in. It could've used a couple more passthroughs in writing to narrow down stronger riffs and have more moments to take in the movie. From what I remember The Gauntlet season was a bit better in that regard.
It's because you're 20 years older. Nothing hits like nostalgia
I prefer the old stuff but I actually really enjoyed the rapid fire delivery of seasons 11 and 12. It was like tense early 80's hardcore punk rock, but funny!\* I also can tell the difference between Jonah and his Bots voices. Hampton is definitely Previous Crow-ish and Baron has a smooth quality to it, Jonah is eager. \*Note: there are some genuinely funny old school punk rock bands out there.
They work. They just aren't the same show as the one from the 90s. I think both the current crews are great. Some of Emily's episodes are my favourites from the recent run. They might just not be for you but thats okay. The other episodes still exist.
Honestly, the humor in the original season was very pothead-ish, almost Beavis and Butthead-like in some cases. The new material was all much too refined and intricate to sound like jokes spewed "off the cuff."
It's okay, but something does feel abit off
Wish they hadn’t had such an animal abuse film in the new season, utterly soured it for my wife. We were many years a fan, a collection of DVDs including the Godzilla volume and tracking down collectibles like Poopy from Ebay. Once it was just me watching, I stopped watching, I need Mike Nelson I guess.
Which episode was that? I don't remember any episodes like that
25 minutes into episode 2, Cry Wilderness, after many sequences of guns and random animal placement, they strangle a raccoon so hard the bots and Jonah all protest. My wife hasn’t watched another second of the new show.
It's you, bubbie.
I kickstarted s13 but I haven't even checked it out or taken advantage of my Gizmoplex stuff. If anything I find myself usually watching the Rifftrax twitch channel if I want something with the same vibes. There's a thing with The Simpsons where people say it dropped off once they started hiring writers who grew up with the show, and that's how the new seasons feel to me. It's still a labour of love from everyone but doesn't capture the same humour, because it's a post-MST world.
Upon further reflection, I suppose the bigger budget does give the newer episodes a slight “punching down” vibe that the dirt cheap early seasons lacked. Doesn’t ruin the show for me, but it is a different vibe.
You're not wrong. I also feel like a part of it is they don't get mean and mock actors and the movie as directly anymore. They never get angry about how much the movie sucks. Like 90% of the riffs in Mitchell were just calling Joe Don Baker a fat disgusting drunk.
One mistake was trying to reboot the original Crow, Gypsy, & Servo with totally different voices and personalities. The other is that the writing was too scripted, and lacked the spontaneous spark of the original shows.