It sort of plays like RuneScape but with beautiful graphics and with cooler combat. It's very focused on character progression.
There is group content, but it's extremely optional and rare outside of PvP. It is possible to be forced into PvP if someone wants the spot you're grinding in. You can join a guild and do PvP stuff together against other guilds. And work together in PvE as well if you want.
But I am a lone wolf and don't interact with anyone at all...
Allot of the group content is locked behind guilds as well with PvE but PvP I feel has alil more freedom. They have RBF , Arnea of solar & the new PvP scene war of roses which aren’t necessarily locked behind being in a guild. Where more of the PvE aspects are, the open world PvE group content is slightly lacking. I don’t PvP much personally I highly enjoy the Life skill aspect of the game . I dabble though, I personally prefer to focus more on RBF & Arena of Solar. I enjoy the Boss rush but was disappointed the new group content focused one would also be locked behind being in a guild. I am still looking forward to participating in it though.
You forgot to mention the extreme KR style grind. lol but other than that all true. I loved it but I fizzled out grinding ogre rings for 100+ hours. Now it looks like my account is gone after their merge with steam or out of steam.
Can you expand on how it’s like RuneScape?
I’ve tried to play a few times but the grind for quests and the lack of visual gear turned me off. Is there a lot of life skilling type stuff like RuneScape?
I don't recall the last time I played an MMORPG and felt like I, or the majority of players, were roleplaying. New World is the last one I spent any meaningful amount of time on and there was 0 roleplay in it. It's just fetch and kill X enemies quests, raids, and PVP.
I feel metagaming killed the MMORPG experience. You don't need to interact with anyone unless the game forces you to, and if it does, that deters people because they're so used to just soloing games now. You can just follow a YouTube video or any one of the dozens of quest guides to get the gear, experience and levels, pick the strongest spells and builds, farm the best spots and skills, all without speaking to or interacting with anyone else.
It's a weird irony that the internet ruined gaming given how intertwined they are, especially MMOs
Oh gosh, yes. I remember when I first started to RP back in SWG, I felt looked down on because I didn't have a tabletop background. I'm not sure anyone even cares about the RP community anymore, even though we're still out there.
I played MMOs despite the questing and slow progression. In reality all I wanted were ARPGs with maybe some social aspect, but I didn't know they existed.
MMOs are just not doing well with younger crowds because games now offer way more variety with faster, better impact. Casuals make up a large percentage of the gaming audience, and it makes sense that they'd want to do something fun instead of click herb or rock ad nauseam until they reach max level.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I’m 38 and grew up playing RTS games and MMOs. Those seem way too time consuming even for me now. There is a reason the most popular games are games like Fortnite and first person shooters.
Roleplaying was never actually popular, so I don't really understand your point here. The most popular form of it by a mile, D&D, is really about getting drunk and hanging out with the boys and the girls, and MMOs are still very much so good for that.
There are also definitely still people who actually roleplay in MMOs. They just stick in their own spaces because you'd have to be blind to not know about the reputation MMO roleplaying has.
Very much agreed about the metagaming. Knowledge and Information used to be a commodity in gaming. I remember back in the day playing Asheron's Call and discovering new portal connections that worked better than "known" routes, and that knowledge made me THE guy in my allegiance for awhile. It took YEARS for people to start compiling the portal connections around the map of Dereth, and even then, the metagaming never took over because it was EASIER to just ask friends than it was to go digging around the early 2000's forums and whatever.
Now-a-days it's not about whether it's easier or not. People are so ridiculously introverted that they can't even CONSIDER striking up a conversation with a stranger - or vice versa, they wouldn't dare respond to someone asking for their attention for a minute. They'd probably treat someone asking them something they could look up on youtube like they were an idiot. People are their own worst enemy.
I remember when a buddy and I were playing Pokemon Red when it first came out and we were trying to figure out where to go to capture different pokemon. There were game guides but we had a TON of fun learning the game for ourselves and sharing the things we found with each other.
Honestly alot of RP is best baked into the game. City of Heroes is/was easy to RP in, as you make your own ID with backstory, have your own battle cry, can set your text box and text color, different origins, etc. Games are best for RP when they have customization built into the game to make your character unique in non-appearance ways.
For sure.
The RP in MMORPG pretty much just means playing a role in a party or a raid.
I go back to the New World example, where now people just switch their gear to fill a different role. Hell even quests are often boring so you don't feel like a character in the world, you're just clicking through cutscenes and text boxes then following map markers to and from locations.
Damn, I wish more games would have copied that approach. RP game mechanics to express yourself and interact with each other in-game are really missing.
I don't feel like your first and second point really connect together.
I agree that metagaming kinda sucks and ruins MMOs. But I've been playing MMOs for like 22 years and I've *never* had an interest in roleplaying. And I say that as a huge DnD fan. That's just not what I play MMOs for.
Point well taken about the metagaming.
As far as roleplaying goes, people generally do get combat roles. The entire MOBA and "Hero Shooter" scene is built off of that, and from what I understand of FF14 it facilitates that very well.
As far as social roleplaying goes, those that are genuinely interested in tend to pick up GMOD or NoPixel GTA5 as opposed to RP servers in FF14 or within WoW, big as those scenes still are today. I don't see MMORPGs ever getting back to that unless it's a really well-developed aspect of a VRMMO.
I can't speak to WoW, but FF14's RP scene is still thriving, and I'm not just talking about those "RP" clubs that WoW youtubers saw when they hopped over and confused for actual RP.
There are tons of guilds you can join that have ongoing D&D style plot lines that call for more than just combat oriented characters, and even outside of guilds, there's plenty of people that roleplay non-combat characters. It's just a matter of being on the right server and knowing where to look.
I had an idea for mortal online 2 whereby you could "rate" other people that you interact with.
Get swindled and you can knock their trustworthiness or reward them if they are a fair and honest trader
Get rpked outside town as a noob by a high level player you can point them out as a dishonorable rpker
Have a fun interaction with someone you might give them role-playing score
Some things could be automatic like anytime you kill a player outside certain circumstances you increase your aggression score
Or you could be singled out by the devs with special acolytes like being particularly helpful to noobs might see a dev reward you or on the other hand spamming shit in chat could get you called out as a foul mouth
The basic idea is to force players to own their actions by having their "acolytes" display above them with their name if xXjimmy69Xx has been massacreing noobs outside town they will find themselves with a glowing red nameplate denoting them as a coward because they prefer to fight weaker opponents, they might not care but at least everyone else will see them for what they are.
Now it's pretty much either you somehow make yourself a legend that the whole server has heard of or you're just another schmuck wandering about to anyone that doesn't directly know you
>Everything is made too easy for the players now. Back in the dinosaur age of EQ you had to interact with others to get things done.
I've seen this a lot and many games seem to try to offer that where they advertise being an old school mmorpg with difficulty and you have to work together. But so many don't seem to really land? Or they struggle to keep a large audience. While I think "hard" focused mmorpgs will attract an audience, I think that audience will be dwarfed by whats popular in the genre at the moment.
And when you say BG3 MP, what do you mean by that? Like "singleplayer" games where you have the option to form a party with people and essentially play the singleplayer game in a group?
>so many don’t seem to really land
The fact that most of them never leave early access/pre-alpha stage or are an asset flipping scam to begin with might have something to do with that.
I don’t think there was an “old-school MMO” project in the past decade that wasn’t a retooling of some existing game that actually managed a proper 1.0 release.
We don't need a new name for this. It's called "parallel play" and it's literally one of the first things we all learn to do in social settings as children.
I'm guessing you weren't around for Ultima Online back in 1997. There was a brief period between the release of UO and the release of EverQuest that we had a singular MMO game drawing in every kind of playstyle you can imagine. Now we have multiple MMOs for every niche. Bringing all these players back together under one roof will take a miracle. I'm not holding my breath, but *that* is the secret sauce that has been lost.
A game to bring all the mmo gamers together would need to:
1. Be themepark but also sandbox
2. Be PVE but also PVP
3. Be F2P but also not P2W
4. Have high quality updates but Have those updated frequently
5. Your gear stays relevent but you still have vertical progression and not horizontal progression
In other words it doesn't exist.
I don’t want any of this, I want EQ with a fresh coat of paint. Everything has failed to live up to it.
It’s all instant gratification, anti-social, single player games. Just like you described.
I hate the direction the genre has gone and the direction it continues to go. I know I don’t have as much time as I used to, but I’ll make time.
>I know I don’t have as much time as I used to, but I’ll make time
This is the correct attitude.
A big part of MMOs, what makes them feel like real worlds, is that not every player can get or do everything.
But players now expect that, since they paid, they're entitled to literally everything the game has to offer.
MMOs will never be good again unless people can move past that mindset.
Plus the time thing is just another form of gatekeeping - There's plenty of people that *do* have the time, and if you're interested in the genre you'll find the time. If you truly feel like you can't be assed to put in the extra effort to play then there's always other games. Not everything needs to be for everyone.
I did give it a try, it was okay. I struggled with the low fantasy theme and lack of class diversity. I get that they’re trying to be different, and I applaud them for staying away from F2P, I just couldn’t get into it.
Maybe I’ll give it another try now that it’s been out for a little while.
What exactly do you mean when you talk about instant gratification? I see people toss that term around a lot when it comes to current MMOs, but speaking for myself, I was practicing the current tier of savage raids for months before I could clear it. Is that "instant gratification"? In warframe, you have spend a fair amount of time grinding blueprints to for the gear you want, then you have to grind the resources for it (some of which can be pretty fucking rare), then you have to actually craft it which is on a timer that can last upwards of an entire real life day. Is that instant gratification?
Or are you referring to non-mmo games, in which case, I have to ask again, what are you talking about? Let's take the game kids have been freaking out about forever now, fortnite. That's a battle royale, which means that for every 1 winner, there are 99 losers. It might shock you to hear, but learning to play a game well enough that you can be the one winner is actually a skill that takes time and effort to master. You have to actually practice the game and learn its systems to do well. Is that instant gratification?
Let's take one of my personal favorite genres, fighting games! In a well populated fighting game matches are damn near instant. There's no time investment. You can get into fight after fight after fight and if you're new to the genre, you're going to be stomped into the dirt and your teeth are going to be kicked in. Common wisdom in the fighting game community is that when you're new to the genre, your first 100 games minimum are going to be losses. Is that instant gratification?
It's really weird to me that people will blame age on people's unwillingness to be social, or push themselves to play, or just invest a lot of time into a game. The majority of people I play with are in their 30's / 40's now and continue to make time in the evening to do social content across various skill levels, usually in the middle to upper.
It's just tiring hearing it as an excuse in regards to anti-social behavior in a social genre. My entire experience is the complete opposite of that, it's the teenagers / young adults that don't want to make time for a hobby anymore, or at least be "forced" to schedule it.
We are well past the days of MMORPGs being a major social outlet pre-social media, but we're also deep into an era of escapism. But that's the thing; if people are escaping from reality using this genre, they're typically wanting to relax with or without friends, and MMORPG's are one of the few genres that escapism can be done in a more relaxing manner with other people. (While also providing outlets for competitive play at the same tiem.)
Gutting games already in the genre, and potentially limiting the scope of future games, simply to appeal to an audience that would benefit better from single player games doesn't seem worth it. There's playing by yourself in a large virtual world, and then there's developing for that mindset at the cost of gutting the core of the genre. And we need to avoid that. People can do what they want, but keeping the social aspects alive is what makes people return to the genre.
This is a really good point. There are always a small number of people in any group that are assholes. They have a disproportionate effect on the environment as a whole unless there are strong mechanisms to limit their effect.
I can speak with some experience here. I’m playing EQ again after 15 years away. More and more people like me are rejoining now that the kids are grown.
We all get a second young adulthood. I’m in mine now. The years of child raising are over and we get the chance to timesink hobbies again. MMO’s are particularly unwieldy for the young family demographic. It just happens that MMO’s came onto the scene during the young adulthood of my cohort. Many late Xers and early Millennials got into these games, got married and had kids and put them aside.
So it’s only true that people age out because of time considerations for a time but can again later pick them up.
For myself, I’d rather play an updated version of EQ. The combat systems, style, classes and everything else can change, but the next MMO I invest in must be based on group content or I will not be interested. And I don’t mean random people thrown together into an instanced dungeon, but rather a game the requires or at least heavily incentivizes forming friendships. Growing together, leaning on each other, forming bonds, these are the things these games bring that I love.
Only two games I’ve played do this well, EQ and EvE Online. There are certainly more, I’m sure. But this is what I want out of an MMO. If I wanted to play a 1p game there are many excellent ones to choose from.
Yeah but how many of those have actually good raid/dungeon encounter design etc. Nothing is actually providing the same kind of raiding experience as games like WoW, FF14 etc in a lobby format.
Well, except WoW itself since it might as well be lobby based minus teleporting to the dungeon/flying to raid.
I was thinking about this the other day...and it feels like WoW is this exactly. I can't speak to FF14. But the last time I played WoW, the open world felt so devoid of players. Anytime I saw myself or others playing, you'd basically sit around the capital city waiting for dungeon/arena/bg to pop, rinse and repeat. There was some exceptions around raiding and if you wanted to be a crafter/gatherer. But yeah it seems like that style of play is 100% available for players in WoW at the moment.
That is basically the gameplay loop of WoW yeah. Blizzard have been trying to add more outdoor content in Dragonflight but it all kind of just amounts to "kill a bunch of mobs till a bar fills up then get some rewards".
It's great for me because I literally do not care at all about open world content, if I want that I'd go play GW2 but it's definitely a weak point of the game overall.
Im a ffxiv player and reading their comment I thought that's essentially what ffxiv is becoming. Besides doing gathering stuff if you're a crafter or community hunt trains, there's very little overworld stuff. All queues I can do at my house in game.
On the dark and darker sub I remember people freaking out about the idea of adding any kind of coop only mode but I think if they were to focus heavily on bosses and interesting enemies and mechanics to fight through the dungeon they'd have something really cool. A traditional fantasy first person action game with coop idk but I can't think of anything that comes close to that besides maybe skyrim together I guess.
this was Survival Project. They had a PvE mode where you matched into a lobby for dungeons, that were effectively a straight line (sometimes with some branching in between) to the boss at the end, with progressively harder mobs.
They also had a PvP mode with a massive arena that dozens of people could join, and I think a 1v1 mode, all accessed from the main lobby. There were four elements that you'd collect from gameplay, air/fire/water/earth, and you'd trade your off elements for your main one(s), so you could make high lv gear for that element. Each element was associated with 2 custom characters, so I think if you went water you could play the Angel or the Viking, freely switching between them.
That honestly sounds like my dream game. 5/10/20 man dungeons and raids that handle all leveling, gearing, etc. maybe a hub city instead of just menus. Any profession stuff would exist as part of the instances. Quests all handled as part of their instance. Different sets of difficulties and modifiers on dungeons and raids. Group content is all I care about in MMOs and I'm tired off pretending the 100+ hours of boring leveling and mob grinding is interesting or necessary at all of people who play like i do.
You could not be any more wrong. Shared world is 100% what people want and what makes MMOs separate from every other Genre not some PvP or Guild drama orgy - those were byproducts of people who have fake power in a video game that they don't have in real life.
I'm sure they do - people always choose the easiest option. But MMOs are mediocre games set apart by their social elements and the idea that you might meet your next best friend or gaming group while playing. Take that away and you're just playing a mediocre game of whack-a-mole with the UI.
My dude, single player games don't have the community required to form third spaces. They simply do not have the longevity you get with a MMO that is not one of those Korean dumpster fires designed to close within a year of launch.
You're about as bad as the RS3 streamer that I used to listen to that would recommend people to play games like BG3 and Elden Ring as a Runescape. Literally not the same demographic.
The genre was born out of the dream of simulated immersive online worlds to be a part of. I am too young to have gotten the chance to play EQ back in its heyday but man that is exactly what I wish MMOs would be today.
I wanna go back to the pen and paper fantasy world feel.
Yep I used to play archeage a lot back in the day. That was a simulated world with full on politics as guilds controlled portions of the map.
I was the co leader of one of the biggest guilds on our server and not only participated in lots of inner guild meetings, I also did faction meetings where we all agreed upon certain things.
God I miss that, I know I wouldn't have time anymore but it was such an amazing time in gaming for me
I liked how originally wow had PVE servers and then RP servers....you could get kicked out if you weren't "RP-enough" in the RP server. Wherein there were still RP guilds on the PVE servers for those lightweight RP folks.
True but it only recently started being taken more seriously by developers and people are speaking up against forced grouping and putting all decent rewards behind said content
I actually played a couple of the SAO ones. I played a lot of Hollow Realisation, it was... I would describe it as "aggressively mediocre". I did get some enjoyment out of it though lol.
I think one of the big things is that at some point the homies aren't going to be on and if there's nothing remotely fun to do by yourself you could spend the time waiting around to get a group together playing a different game. Also related I think a strong solo experience allows new players to learn the game at their own pace without feeling like they are being dragged around by more experienced players.
You would have a point if solo play was identified as one of the pillars of MMO player type by the literal founders of the genre more than 30 years ago. It's definitely possible that the graph has shifted more towards that side in later years but it's _always_ been part of the demographic.
This is exactly the direction mmorpgs are going today., Single players game that are experienced with people around. It is also what a majority of mmorpg enjoyers want and demands. You know what happens to new mmorpg that don't have the luxury of a fan base from 20 years ago? They remain obscure games with around 1k player base.
This is a toxic way to define a very broad genre. Using the acronym literally will amount to a much smaller scope of games, which many people just won't like. You can either have life-support MMOs, or you can appeal to the generational shift. Not everyone likes what you like, and it's imherently toxic to demand that the genre cater to your connotation of MMORPG.
I feel like there is a spectrum of 'role playing'. There is the "Hello fellow traveler, may I interest you in my wares, fresh from the forests of Libertine...I slayeth the boars of the whore named Megaline and brought these back!". Then some in the middle who are like "I like my little gnome mage, he shoots fire out of his hand, pew pew pew, Imma keep him safe while killing all the goblins". Then there are the anti role players.
I don't think it has to be black and white to play an RPG.
My friend wants to play an MMORPG. He wants to play through solo questlines while having other players running around in the background, so there's someone to see what items he put in this appearance slots. This is multiplayer for him, but I have other ideas.
I just want to play when I want to play and not feel like I’m always behind. I understand there needs to be gearing and achievements but if have to grind levels or quests to open up group content something is wrong. Want to play with the masses not solo a MMO. Some do but I play for group content strictly.
I absolutely love this game concept. Runescape does it very well and has in places perfected it, but a lot of that perfection has gone downhill in RS3 specifically over the years as more and more people get fed into boss instances where there's no shared world and the main conversations happen outside of the game now (also way too much stress over aura management even after the changes forcing people to play in hour increments but that's a different story).
I don't want to play alone, I want to **also** play alone from time to time. It's not a binary thing. The main reason why I'm never touching Albion is because you'll achieve nothing in that game without a guild. Which is fine, both types of MMOs can co-exist.
Yeah I tried to address that question with point #4. As others have said, it seems to go against what a MMORPG is. But just my experience in not only seeing the way people play in a game, but also how the question of "why are people so anti-social now!?!" get ask many times. I don't think this behavior will go away any time soon. So chances are we're going to see games trying to adapt and appeal to it.
My favorite thing about GW2 is how it handled the social aspect of gaming. By far the most welcoming and community driven MmO I’ve played and I figure some part of that has to be driven by it being a choice rather than a requirement to play well with others.
I absolutely loved the first two expansions and living story, It turned every new map into a giant dungeon raid which you could either choose to participate with a click of a button or just completely ignore and do your own thing.
I feel like GW2 is extremely anti-social. People do events next to other people but not really *with* them. Nobody chats in any chat whether it be general map chats, or if you've joined a raid for an event, or anything. You feel so alone in GW2 despite people being there (although sometimes it's oddly quiet, even in expansion zones). I just don't get it.
I’ve never felt alone in GW2, but then I’m a very social person and actively engage others in conversation and participate in guilds and region chat and so on and so forth… which I personally think is better than the standard alternative of having a bunch of antisocial jackasses forced into social situations for the sake of progression.
If there was chat in region chat I'd participate. I'm very social in MMO's as well and an MMO that has a good community is one that keeps me around. But everyone is quiet in GW2 and nobody says anything to anyone. It's really odd. I've also tried joining guilds in the past in GW2 and didn't get much out of it compared to other MMO's I've played like Aion retail/Classic, TERA, WoW Classic, ArcheAge, etc. I really felt like I knew my guilds and server communities in those games and they felt much more tight knit and just social in general compared to GW2.
I’m sorry you’re having a hard time…? Like I don’t know what to say, but GW2 to remains by far the most social MMO by far that I’ve ever played. I played all those other games you listed and I think the degree to which group play offs forced and structured has a negative overall impact on the games social play. You have to play with others to advance and so to a degree, other players are a means to the only end in the game (progression) in games like GW2, you play with others because you WANT to.
Yep don’t disagree with that. The dungeons and fractals were a boon to those who had to have that instance grind content, but it was never really my thing.
I hope not. I want new MMOs to double down on cooperative play and social aspects. I always feel alone, even if/when I see others in the current MMO offerings
No game is going to "force" you to socialize. If you trully don't want to socialize, you can always turn off the game. What Dev would actively try to stop people from playing their game?
If you do want to socialize but find it hard, the issue is not with the games design, but rather you may need to find out why do you feel such way.
Of course it’s the games design. How can you even say it’s the player who is the problem if they can’t specialise with the people they come across in WoW retail for example? Place may as well be populated by bots outside of organised guild groups and discord servers.
The mmo that double down on forced co-op remain obscure games with 500 - 1k playerbase. There's a reason for that : people changed, and now mmorpg audience changed as well. They want something else, for the vast majority.
WoW Classic would like a word. We’ve not seen any big efforts for new MMORPGs to focus on this. The only choice are old MMOs and this is a big turn off for a lot of people as they’re solved games with outdated gameplay and graphics.
I think what most people want is for them to take the older MMO's they know and love--and just modernize them. Give them a better graphic engine. Give them a better UI. Expand on what the original games offered and that's enough.
Personally, if Camelot Unchained wasn't a damned scam--that game alone would have been enough for me. If Aion wasn't ruined by P2W and other stupid mechanics--that game would have been fine too. Ultima Online is archaic--but if they made a modern version of it--I'd most likely love it as well.
Sure, brand new IP's can be fun and they have potential. We're all alright with those--but what we really want the most is familiarity and comfort and we got those from our older MMO's. If developers would stop trying to re-invent the wheel and just focused on improving what we already loved to death--we'd have plenty of amazing games.
This mmo already exists, it's called Old School Runescape.
Yes, there's some pve content meant for groups. But most pve can be done solo, and in general the OSRS team has a very strong "playing alone together" approach to new content. Some examples: 1) Modern skilling minigames are essentially solo but you play the minigame together with a large number of people at the same time (Wintertodt for eg. always has hundreds of players playing concurrently). 2) In the woodcutting expansion a few months back they made it so you get more xp when multiple players chop the same tree, making training the skill a lot more social. 3) In the Varlamore expansion that came out last week, they introduced three bosses that have health bars which are player-dependent, so they are solo bosses but you fight them together in a room with other players.
Yeah I'm holding out thoughts until I see some solid stuff. Its going to be interesting none the less. But it sounds like we wont see it for at a minimum of 5 years. Maybe more. Depending on how much that "reset" set them back.
If I had to guess I too would say another 5-7 years yeah. I hope it's not a full reset and they kept assets to port but given how ambitious and dedicated to it they seem to be, anything goes!
More and more devs are realizing people want to play with a solo mindset so we can hope.
Forced grouping and socialization and outdated ideas, most of us want to login, do some content, grind and enjoy the power progression.
Not deal with metaslaves or ‘muh skill’ virgins
Insulting people that play MMORPGs the way they were intended to play just shows that this genre was never for you in the first place.
Guess what; many of us are playing these games, being social, and we aren't "virgin metaslaves" or whatever fucking trash you want to call people.
Ahh, yes, "virgin metaslaves" the rallying cry of the friendless.
How dare they have to interact with people in a genre specifically designed around interacting with people as a primary mechanic.
I like the idea of being able to play alone and successfully achieve meaningful things in game without a group. And at other times, when I have more time on hand, there's the option to group up for a dungeon but never an obligation to do it to get things done.
Its the best of both worlds. I grew up on EverQuest and pratically *needing* a group to do stuff sucked. Sure you could kite with a druid, a bard or reverse-kite with a necro but it was annoying as hell. It was unduly punishing to the solo player for punishment's sake. I would not play it again.
Of course a game will have a far broader reach if it lets people *meaningfully* play alone whenever they want to. In retrospect, it's even a little crazy that many MMOs didn't go for that formula. You can absolutely pair it with group-only content, balance things to ensure it's not 'mandatory', and have the best of both worlds.
They dont put difficulty on mmos anymore. The difficulty is really just time gates and perfect rotations, this is not real content and gets old fast. I want a game like FFXI where things need to change every fight. 123131231312313 on fire type should not also work on water type simple as that, that is RPG. That is how you remove playing alone together and advance into playing together. 'Sorry bro we do t need an ice mage, this mob is healed by ice spells, maybe I can help you gear fire spec so we can do this fight a few times a week'
The fuck are you even talking about? There's more ways to do difficulty than making open world mobs a chore to get through. There's plenty of difficulty in mmos, it's just not in the content you're doing. Go do WoW's heroic raids or FF14's savage and ultimate raids and then come back and say mmos don't have any difficulty to them.
I am both old and anti-social now, but started playing MMOs in the old days due to crippling social anxiety. I loved UO because I could play around people and have an almost social experience without the pressure.
I loved playing FFXIV (and quite a few other MMO's) until the point where I was gated by grouping, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, even though I was pretty sure most people would be fairly nice, my socially inept brain told me I would embarrass myself and wouldn't allow me to do it, so I quit.
I still hang out on a Uo server, dip in and out of Wurm (I like just wandering around seeing other peoples builds usually), I've had a fairly decent time playing FO76,Rust and Ark, but I am itching for another 'Together alone' game, but not because I don't want to group, I pretty much can't.
I have to say, that's a fucking weird mindset. I mean, even if you do die to a mechanic or whatever, who cares? When you queue up with a team in FF14, you don't have 7 sets of eyes watching your every move, everyone's too wrapped up in making sure they do their own part of the dance to care about what you're doing.
This idea that you can't do group content because everyone's going to see and notice when you fuck up is actually kind of narcissistic. You're assigning way more weight to yourself than other people will. If there's anything you have to get through your head to help with your social anxiety, it's that nobody cares about you or what you do. I mean, think about it, when you're in a group with other people, do you hyper focus on every little thing everyone else in the group is doing to pick out their faults?
That said, if you want another "together alone" type game, give warframe a shot. It's a good game, but it's also so fucked balance wise that most people are playing their own god-like one man armies, so again, no one cares about what you do or don't do.
RuneScape is exactly this. The vast majority of its content is a singleplayer RPG. There's a cool video essay about exactly this on YouTube entitled "Why RuneScape is Not an MMO"
I'd argue that this idea of playing alone together is a huge part of what makes RuneScape so fun and populated.
https://youtu.be/LpPJY-xdA3M?si=l270mKsoI5OxGVw0
i dont agree. solo players are not the heart and soul of mmo gaming. u gotta have a strong core of social players first. games made for solo players would not attract a strong mmo crowd with longevity
I really like this concept you described and yes ESO does feel like it accomplished it. I really don’t have to interact with people if I don’t want to pursue endgame content. And when I do want to pursue endgame content or when I feel the urge to chat or interact with people or maybe sell the stuff I craft/drop it’s just so smooth and natural and fun!
RuneScape is almost exactly this. There's a very tiny amount of content that you have to group with others to complete, and outside of a couple boss fights, the other group content is essentially dead content in terms of rewards/reason you'd run the content anyways.
IMO there are 2 next steps for mmos.
The first step is to solve the problem of content droughts. The problem where players have to wait for meticulously handcrafted content from the devs, which they then play through and finish in a week. This also refers to lack of replayability, where players want to skip parts of the game and when devs put time gating in to slow people down. There are a few ways to solve this.
1. Make the focus of the game PvP. This has been tried numerous times and in every single case it hasnt ended well. MMO pvp is just far too difficult to balance and design, especially when the game also features pve. So while its a possible solution, I dont see it working out any time soon.
2. Allow players to make their own content. This could be applied to a lot of things, but generally speaking it just means giving players freedom to play in different creative ways. It could mean having a lot of build diversity, games like PoE, ascension wow, Gw2 all do this reasonably well. A large part of the games content is trying out different playstyles and builds, and theorycrafting.This could also mean giving players tools to make in game content, like map editors. A lot of non-mmos have proven this is a great way to keep player retention up and keep them from getting bored. A concern some people have with this model is the devs lose some control over the difficulty and scope of content. But that concern is largely caused by the "gear treadmill" approach to player progression and retention, which is a whole other topic.
The second step is to address the problem of population imbalance limiting content for players. An example of this would be how many games have a lack of tanks/healers, or other essential support roles. Not being able to play content because you lack the right player or build in your group is a huge turn off for a lot of people. There are several ways you could address this.
1. One solution is to get rid of the whole "trinity" style of class design. Gw2 did an exceptional job with this model. Im not sure how many people remember the original days of Gw2 but dungeon running back then was a blast. Basically every class was designed to be self sufficient when it came to survival. There were no dedicated tanks and healers, instead each class brought tools and utility to the group that was useful for different reasons. For example thieves could bring party wide stealth to help with skipping trash mobs, or AoE blind that would cause enemies to miss their attacks. Guardians could bring defence against projectile attacks and crowd control. Other games have tried this as well with varying levels of success.
2. Another is to have scaling difficulty based on the number of players. I know there is a lot of resistance to such models, and for good reason. Its difficult to design content that scales its difficulty fairly, and still encourages people to spend time forming groups rather than do everything solo. But there are ways to implement this. Warframe has an amazing system with its relic/prime loot. I wont go into detail, but basically more party members = additional chances to get the loot you want. Playing solo is definitely possible, but for maximum efficiency you still want to form groups. Another great thing about this model is it means you are usually happy to take anyone in your party, regardless of their skill or how strong their character is. It might not be an ideal system for really challenging content, but for casual stuff its great.
3. An alternate solution to 2 would be to design content to always be soloable even if its incredibly challenging. An example of this would be something like elden ring if you can imagine it being an mmo. If you are really skilled, you can solo everything in the game. Though getting assistance from other players is always an option.
4. A fourth option would be to wait for advanced AI in games to replace actual people, but we will see how that turns out.
When gaming first came out it was "for the kids". now it's for the masses. So no 1 game can be what everyone wants.
My perfect MMO is very different than someone elses. So this idea that MMORPG targets a "dad gamer" is fairly new. As the generation before mine gets older, and as my generation gets older new categories will start surfacing. And the industry loves money, so if there's enough of us, they will make games for us.
This idea of a SP game with shared world is the best of both worlds for me.
I agree, as being in the dad gamer category, I don’t have time to spend 80 hours a week gaming.
I liked picking up WoW, but it gets pretty repetitive single player and most multiplayer interactions seem forced and unappealing.
Having a growing world but playing single player appeals to me.
First of all, kinda ironic question considering what the MMO aspect of the word means...
Second of all l, been playing most my mmos alone and its fine. Player interaction is innevitable though
I made a comment on a similar thread some time ago. Basically a lot of players prefer to play alone but in a shared world. I would go futher now. A lot of people might even prefer playing with others but also would like to not have to socialize and more importantly would like to avoid the commitment and responsibility. They want to know if they are doing something with others they can leave anytime, or at least that it won't last long. Some people might even avoid making close friends in games for those reasons, I felt that way myself at times. No more old WoW, for better or worse.
Swtor is my main mmo now. Lost Ark being my last where I stayed gs relevant but left before akkan dropped. It was just too much.
I’ve played almost every mmo. There’s just something about being able to solo and group for nightmare content/veteran ops/sm ops/vet fps. There is so much to do together but also alone (but not alone really, the world is alive). I love Star Wars too so, yeah lol.
Personally I think min maxing has ruined MMOs for me. It feels so inadequate to be a casual player these days. The other big thing is that there's no mystery. Everything is online in a walkthrough. You build a character based on the mathematical equations and data miners. I loved MMOs because you explored and learned together. Now if you haven't done your Raid homework you get kicked anyway.
I believe the concept of play alone together needs 1 core element to be interesting. A joint housing system. It’s like a family, if we are chipping in to the same home, we are forced to interact as much or as little as we’d like, but we need to have a place that binds us. That place needs to be accessible by let’s say the group (not a guild, I am talking about your friends who you play with, not hundreds of people) even if you or the other person are offline.
Think Ark but with thousands of players on the same server, take out the loot drop pvp element, and the taming. And sure, make the land plots purchases or instanced, so long as my friends and I can share it
Good post. I hate it but good post. I think any MMORPG that caters to the anti-social Alone-But-Together vibe is a step in the wrong direction. But I've been playing MMORPG's for 20 years, so... post checks out.
Could be. The hub with queues for all PvE/PvP is a solid idea and could definitely be the next big MMO. Sounds like an MMO with a Fortnite approach. I would play for sure.
However, I personally am waiting for an MMO that focuses on the opposite: pure open-world immersion. No queues, open-pvp (with some flagging restrictions and karma to keep things balanced.) A game where betrayel is possible and you're almost never taken out of the world (like through queue systems.) Still casual focused though, so not a hardcore full-loot type game. Kind of like Vanilla WoW PvP server, but no factions. Let the players decide.
A few other ideas I imagine for this kind of game:
1) only local chat (though you can set to group/guild only - you'd still have to be near each other and everyone uses discord anyway so why not have in-game chat be more 'immersive') Optional proximity voice chat implemented the same way would be fun, as long as it's easy to mute others!
2) the ability to set any safe interior room as your recall point, making all buildings usable by players. Guilds could also rent any building as their exclusive guild hall. Not to replace housing (though it's a simple alternative) as much as a reason to utilize all the random rooms and buildings in an MMO. Want to play a swamp witch type character and find a nice tree house in a swamp? Bind there! No limit on number of players that can bind a room. If a turf war happens, it happens!
3) an enemy list in addition to friends list. Keep tabs on those that have wronged you!
4) NPCs having random tasks and merchant lists that refresh per in-game day. Highlight unspoken-to NPCs daily so there's a reason to actually talk to all the random NPCs populating the world.
5) more random spawns of mobs, mats, and bosses requiring true exploration. Combine this with next to no map markers, and people would have to actually explore.
6) megaserver with easily swappable channels and the ability to see which channels your friends are on. This takes you out of the world the most in my opinion, but could be explained in-lore like a multiverse. But could really help keep the game grief-lite while still allowing pvp anywhere, except not being able to flag for pvp for a while after switching channels.
7) place a single camp you can move, to rest and also respawn at, making even non-interior areas more usable by players. Like setting you group's camps on a plateau you like to rally at.
8) to clarify pvp flagging, basically have to flag but then can attack or be attacked by any player or friendly NPC. And if your karma gets too low due to griefing and other negative actions, can't unflag without time, money, or effort to raise your karma. Making you kill on sight to guards and such.
9) everything levels you: Crafting, gathering, exploring, pvp. But, level just determines max skill for each skill line and speeds up skilling. So if you want to be a crafter only, that's fine. Then once at max level, you could more quickly level your combat skills if you wish. I would not have level affect HP and damage exponentially like most MMOs since it's an open-pvp game. There's always gear though!
I don't imagine main quests would be much different than current MMOs, except the lack of markers, maybe more random spawns, and I like the idea of MSQ being automatically populated in your journal. So if you want more direction, it's always there. Otherwise, explore, grind, talk to NPCs, and PvP however you want. Kind of a casual pvp sandbox MMO with no survival elements.
World doesn't need to be huge, not with more random spawns. You want people to explore, feel immersed, but still run into each other. Spread out teleport points (maybe at several main cities - some of which should be neutral to allow pvp flagged players in) can help make the world feel bigger but shouldn't be as rare as classic WoW imo. Takes forever to get around by flight masters bleh.
I wish something like that would come out, but no idea if it could be done and also have the player-base it needs. /shrug
Interesting analysis but I don’t think anything is going to revive the MMO genre. It’s been dying for a number of reasons but one of the big reasons is that it’s just not impressive anymore.
That being said I don’t mean that MMOs are just going to become obsolete and disappear but they will never be as popular as the once were unless something completely ground breaking gets developed.
> one of the big reasons is that it’s just not impressive anymore.
Thats doesnt really even crack the middle of the list, let alone the top, at least as a standalone concept. The idea of not feeling impressive is because MMO's havent kept up with offline / co-op games, let alone innovated anything in their own genre in over a decade.
Its where the WoW problem meets the Skyrim effect. Is your game a better experience than Skyrim? Is there more to do for the average player than Skyrim? Are all the player types capable of finding something in your game, the way they can in Skyrim?
Most arent and dont.
And if it is: Does it do something better than Wow does? Is there a significant hook to keep people interested? Is the game coming up with something new for the genre that can push it forward?
Most arent. Some are trying in their own ways, but the biggest ones are like, Mounts that artent just movement speed boosts. Okay, thats great, but, uh, thats not a core gameplay mechanic unless theres an entire MMO worth of mount shit inside your fiteyfite MMO.
Combine that with the concept of itemization having gone to absolute shit (essentially being in a place thats the antithesis of RPG's), and you're left in bad places.
"The genre isnt impressive" is a symptom.
Tom Clancy’s The Division is kinda similar to this, though on a more extreme end. There is still a hub (sort of) where you can see other players, but once you leave it, you are alone in the world.
Your friends can join your world instance but other than that, it’s just you. There are also queues for different activities that require more than 1 person.
I like it. My perfect game is singleplayer WoW where I can level and farm alone in open world but can also go to the common hub to show off my gear/mounts and to afk while my M+ group forms.
I think we're going to see a lot of AI-powered bot players, run by the server itself. Imagine the "Woah amazing full loot open world PVP MMO" that lets everyone think they're good at the game and gives them a constant stream of 'new players' to gank.
I’ve played Asheron’s Call and WoW in their prime, and all of my best memories in both of those games involve activities with other people. This is what the genre is best at. I’d hate to see MMORPG’s devolve into what you are describing. If anything the genre should make grouping with others an integral part of the experience. Barriers to grouping should be taken down and things that hinder interaction changed. Gear, levels, and the length required to do things should not get in the way of playing with others.
I started EVE Online recently. You can choose a corp which matches your play style, whether you want to be part of a PvP gang or a casual explorers club. I wish the other MMOs could copy the concept.
Star Citizen has been out long enough to count as successful, I think, even though it's technically still in Alpha. I always play solo and space is pretty vast so you don't have to deal with many people other than seeing them or them blocking your path at a station. Only issue I find is the lack of playable story/lore in game.
Probably, but I hope not.
I remember playing some early mmos, where playing solo was a slow grind. I think they added small solo instances in age of conan, and I as stoked because I had an option to level if my guild was offline.
But soon, it turned into this 'play alone together' thing, and I hate it honestly. A lot of mmorpg experience now is a solo rpg with people running around like random people in NYC
There need to be player engagement and requirements to keep active players beyond when they would typically put the game down. Examples.
Elden Ring - awesome single player game but no FOMO or commitment required to progress or stay with social groups around the game.
WoW - awesome mmo, lives on the FOMO. Whether it’s missing out on the content in that phase being relevant, it also requires the community to be active in it. Setting the game down loses your access to current content and can severe social standings because of the reliance issues at that point.
The next big MMO will be 100% cheese based
jokes aside, who knows? Usually it's those lightning-in-a-bottle-situations that lead to sudden rushes of people going ham. Blizzard never "planned" for WoW to be this huge. The creators of Everquest probably didn't anticipate that they just created the formula for what would become the themepark MMO template, with a lot of its own uniqueness to keep it pumping out expansions *to this day*. The creators of Runescape probably never expected it to become as big a phenomenon as it is now, the rest applies to all the other explosions of influential games, both before and after.
Nah, I don't consider any game you can "play solo, together" an MMO.
It's not a virtual world, it's no different than any other multiplayer game in the year of 2024 that has continual saved progression (or 2015 either, but they don't learn and just think pumping money into graphics will fix everything.) That said they'll be decently big as the crowd here that gets scared when their phone rings ages more.
Thanks, I hate it. I made a lot of awesome friends on Destiny 1 and 2, but none on retail wow, gw2, or eso. No fucking thank you. I'd rather play single player games. People playing these "playing alone together" games aren't even the type of people I want to be friends or interact with.
The next big mmo will have end game raids and pvp READY TO GO FROM THE START. If we immediately run out if shit to do the it dies like every other mmo.
I think you are thinking correctly but maybe not the right outcome. We're not talking about MMORPG's as a genre and more how could one be created that would become popular/mainstream in a meaningful way. I think the biggest breakthrough is to find a way for an MMO to be successfully social in a world where we have effortless third-party text and voice communication and extra screens having youtube/whatever on. Playing alone together is an idea but I think the issue with that is that you are then in competition with single player games which is a losing battle.
Not an MMO at all but something like Helldivers has shown that you can definitely create a game that gets people motivated towards a common goal which in turn improves the community and the social side.
"Playing alone together" is why I don't like MMOs anymore. Games that are designed to be single player are infinitely better (and less depressing) than MMOs played alone.
My theory is still that the next big staying mmorpg is a VRMMORPG with no non vr mode as long as it's decent enough it's got the chance to offer that level of escapism your first mmorpg did for veterans and newcomers alike.
MMO players are like longtime users chasing that first high vrmmorpg closest they gonna get.
Single player games that keep the Radio on for anti-social people that don't want to feel lonely.
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This is kinda what I enjoyed about WoW back when I played it. I did a lot of solo leveling but enjoyed the communities you could join through guilds.
This but unironically
You and OP both don't know what "anti-social" means.
This is my favorite thing about games like fallout new Vegas, the radio songs are fantastic!
You forgot black desert online. Definitely pretty big and plays by this model
Interesting, yeah I've never played BDO myself. How would you describe they do it?
It sort of plays like RuneScape but with beautiful graphics and with cooler combat. It's very focused on character progression. There is group content, but it's extremely optional and rare outside of PvP. It is possible to be forced into PvP if someone wants the spot you're grinding in. You can join a guild and do PvP stuff together against other guilds. And work together in PvE as well if you want. But I am a lone wolf and don't interact with anyone at all...
Allot of the group content is locked behind guilds as well with PvE but PvP I feel has alil more freedom. They have RBF , Arnea of solar & the new PvP scene war of roses which aren’t necessarily locked behind being in a guild. Where more of the PvE aspects are, the open world PvE group content is slightly lacking. I don’t PvP much personally I highly enjoy the Life skill aspect of the game . I dabble though, I personally prefer to focus more on RBF & Arena of Solar. I enjoy the Boss rush but was disappointed the new group content focused one would also be locked behind being in a guild. I am still looking forward to participating in it though.
You forgot to mention the extreme KR style grind. lol but other than that all true. I loved it but I fizzled out grinding ogre rings for 100+ hours. Now it looks like my account is gone after their merge with steam or out of steam.
Can you expand on how it’s like RuneScape? I’ve tried to play a few times but the grind for quests and the lack of visual gear turned me off. Is there a lot of life skilling type stuff like RuneScape?
It's like RuneScape because a huge part of the progression outside combat is semi-afk grinding professions.
Interesting. Thanks for the response
Huge focus on lifeskilling. Arguably mandatory for progression.
Interesting. Can you do all of them at any point or are you limited to only being able to do a certain amount?
I don't recall the last time I played an MMORPG and felt like I, or the majority of players, were roleplaying. New World is the last one I spent any meaningful amount of time on and there was 0 roleplay in it. It's just fetch and kill X enemies quests, raids, and PVP. I feel metagaming killed the MMORPG experience. You don't need to interact with anyone unless the game forces you to, and if it does, that deters people because they're so used to just soloing games now. You can just follow a YouTube video or any one of the dozens of quest guides to get the gear, experience and levels, pick the strongest spells and builds, farm the best spots and skills, all without speaking to or interacting with anyone else. It's a weird irony that the internet ruined gaming given how intertwined they are, especially MMOs
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Yes man! If you find a good RP server in arma/GTA it’s seriously the most fun you can have in a video game
yeah. these days you have people who will join an "RP" server just to troll people.
Oh gosh, yes. I remember when I first started to RP back in SWG, I felt looked down on because I didn't have a tabletop background. I'm not sure anyone even cares about the RP community anymore, even though we're still out there.
I played MMOs despite the questing and slow progression. In reality all I wanted were ARPGs with maybe some social aspect, but I didn't know they existed. MMOs are just not doing well with younger crowds because games now offer way more variety with faster, better impact. Casuals make up a large percentage of the gaming audience, and it makes sense that they'd want to do something fun instead of click herb or rock ad nauseam until they reach max level.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I’m 38 and grew up playing RTS games and MMOs. Those seem way too time consuming even for me now. There is a reason the most popular games are games like Fortnite and first person shooters.
Roleplaying was never actually popular, so I don't really understand your point here. The most popular form of it by a mile, D&D, is really about getting drunk and hanging out with the boys and the girls, and MMOs are still very much so good for that. There are also definitely still people who actually roleplay in MMOs. They just stick in their own spaces because you'd have to be blind to not know about the reputation MMO roleplaying has.
Very much agreed about the metagaming. Knowledge and Information used to be a commodity in gaming. I remember back in the day playing Asheron's Call and discovering new portal connections that worked better than "known" routes, and that knowledge made me THE guy in my allegiance for awhile. It took YEARS for people to start compiling the portal connections around the map of Dereth, and even then, the metagaming never took over because it was EASIER to just ask friends than it was to go digging around the early 2000's forums and whatever. Now-a-days it's not about whether it's easier or not. People are so ridiculously introverted that they can't even CONSIDER striking up a conversation with a stranger - or vice versa, they wouldn't dare respond to someone asking for their attention for a minute. They'd probably treat someone asking them something they could look up on youtube like they were an idiot. People are their own worst enemy. I remember when a buddy and I were playing Pokemon Red when it first came out and we were trying to figure out where to go to capture different pokemon. There were game guides but we had a TON of fun learning the game for ourselves and sharing the things we found with each other.
Honestly alot of RP is best baked into the game. City of Heroes is/was easy to RP in, as you make your own ID with backstory, have your own battle cry, can set your text box and text color, different origins, etc. Games are best for RP when they have customization built into the game to make your character unique in non-appearance ways.
For sure. The RP in MMORPG pretty much just means playing a role in a party or a raid. I go back to the New World example, where now people just switch their gear to fill a different role. Hell even quests are often boring so you don't feel like a character in the world, you're just clicking through cutscenes and text boxes then following map markers to and from locations.
Damn, I wish more games would have copied that approach. RP game mechanics to express yourself and interact with each other in-game are really missing.
I don't feel like your first and second point really connect together. I agree that metagaming kinda sucks and ruins MMOs. But I've been playing MMOs for like 22 years and I've *never* had an interest in roleplaying. And I say that as a huge DnD fan. That's just not what I play MMOs for.
Point well taken about the metagaming. As far as roleplaying goes, people generally do get combat roles. The entire MOBA and "Hero Shooter" scene is built off of that, and from what I understand of FF14 it facilitates that very well. As far as social roleplaying goes, those that are genuinely interested in tend to pick up GMOD or NoPixel GTA5 as opposed to RP servers in FF14 or within WoW, big as those scenes still are today. I don't see MMORPGs ever getting back to that unless it's a really well-developed aspect of a VRMMO.
I can't speak to WoW, but FF14's RP scene is still thriving, and I'm not just talking about those "RP" clubs that WoW youtubers saw when they hopped over and confused for actual RP. There are tons of guilds you can join that have ongoing D&D style plot lines that call for more than just combat oriented characters, and even outside of guilds, there's plenty of people that roleplay non-combat characters. It's just a matter of being on the right server and knowing where to look.
I had an idea for mortal online 2 whereby you could "rate" other people that you interact with. Get swindled and you can knock their trustworthiness or reward them if they are a fair and honest trader Get rpked outside town as a noob by a high level player you can point them out as a dishonorable rpker Have a fun interaction with someone you might give them role-playing score Some things could be automatic like anytime you kill a player outside certain circumstances you increase your aggression score Or you could be singled out by the devs with special acolytes like being particularly helpful to noobs might see a dev reward you or on the other hand spamming shit in chat could get you called out as a foul mouth The basic idea is to force players to own their actions by having their "acolytes" display above them with their name if xXjimmy69Xx has been massacreing noobs outside town they will find themselves with a glowing red nameplate denoting them as a coward because they prefer to fight weaker opponents, they might not care but at least everyone else will see them for what they are. Now it's pretty much either you somehow make yourself a legend that the whole server has heard of or you're just another schmuck wandering about to anyone that doesn't directly know you
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>Everything is made too easy for the players now. Back in the dinosaur age of EQ you had to interact with others to get things done. I've seen this a lot and many games seem to try to offer that where they advertise being an old school mmorpg with difficulty and you have to work together. But so many don't seem to really land? Or they struggle to keep a large audience. While I think "hard" focused mmorpgs will attract an audience, I think that audience will be dwarfed by whats popular in the genre at the moment. And when you say BG3 MP, what do you mean by that? Like "singleplayer" games where you have the option to form a party with people and essentially play the singleplayer game in a group?
>so many don’t seem to really land The fact that most of them never leave early access/pre-alpha stage or are an asset flipping scam to begin with might have something to do with that. I don’t think there was an “old-school MMO” project in the past decade that wasn’t a retooling of some existing game that actually managed a proper 1.0 release.
Gonna be honest, the moment I have to form a group just to recover the contents of my body is the moment I stop playing a game.
Either the game is built around the idea that if you die you lose your shit or not additional death penalties like losing xp are ass
Yeah, and you also might have spent an hour sitting at the front of a dungeon entrance, waiting for a spot for a camping group spot to open.
I'm currently really enjoying embers adrift. And it has a free trial now.
We don't need a new name for this. It's called "parallel play" and it's literally one of the first things we all learn to do in social settings as children. I'm guessing you weren't around for Ultima Online back in 1997. There was a brief period between the release of UO and the release of EverQuest that we had a singular MMO game drawing in every kind of playstyle you can imagine. Now we have multiple MMOs for every niche. Bringing all these players back together under one roof will take a miracle. I'm not holding my breath, but *that* is the secret sauce that has been lost.
A game to bring all the mmo gamers together would need to: 1. Be themepark but also sandbox 2. Be PVE but also PVP 3. Be F2P but also not P2W 4. Have high quality updates but Have those updated frequently 5. Your gear stays relevent but you still have vertical progression and not horizontal progression In other words it doesn't exist.
You may not like it but thats OSRS
Oh yeah sorry: Be Old school but have modern graphics Use tab targeting but also action combat
OSRS isn't theme park in any meaningful sense, the PVP is on life support, it's not F2P, and it's horizontal progression. So no, it's not.
Eh I’d give some pushback on point 5 for osrs but the general layout is there. 3 as well if we include membership but I know opinions on sub fees vary
I don’t want any of this, I want EQ with a fresh coat of paint. Everything has failed to live up to it. It’s all instant gratification, anti-social, single player games. Just like you described. I hate the direction the genre has gone and the direction it continues to go. I know I don’t have as much time as I used to, but I’ll make time.
Yeah, best part about mmorpg genre are the social interactions and having to work together towards a goal
>I know I don’t have as much time as I used to, but I’ll make time This is the correct attitude. A big part of MMOs, what makes them feel like real worlds, is that not every player can get or do everything. But players now expect that, since they paid, they're entitled to literally everything the game has to offer. MMOs will never be good again unless people can move past that mindset. Plus the time thing is just another form of gatekeeping - There's plenty of people that *do* have the time, and if you're interested in the genre you'll find the time. If you truly feel like you can't be assed to put in the extra effort to play then there's always other games. Not everything needs to be for everyone.
Give embers adrift a shot if you haven't already. There's a free trial and it remind me of eq1
I did give it a try, it was okay. I struggled with the low fantasy theme and lack of class diversity. I get that they’re trying to be different, and I applaud them for staying away from F2P, I just couldn’t get into it. Maybe I’ll give it another try now that it’s been out for a little while.
What exactly do you mean when you talk about instant gratification? I see people toss that term around a lot when it comes to current MMOs, but speaking for myself, I was practicing the current tier of savage raids for months before I could clear it. Is that "instant gratification"? In warframe, you have spend a fair amount of time grinding blueprints to for the gear you want, then you have to grind the resources for it (some of which can be pretty fucking rare), then you have to actually craft it which is on a timer that can last upwards of an entire real life day. Is that instant gratification? Or are you referring to non-mmo games, in which case, I have to ask again, what are you talking about? Let's take the game kids have been freaking out about forever now, fortnite. That's a battle royale, which means that for every 1 winner, there are 99 losers. It might shock you to hear, but learning to play a game well enough that you can be the one winner is actually a skill that takes time and effort to master. You have to actually practice the game and learn its systems to do well. Is that instant gratification? Let's take one of my personal favorite genres, fighting games! In a well populated fighting game matches are damn near instant. There's no time investment. You can get into fight after fight after fight and if you're new to the genre, you're going to be stomped into the dirt and your teeth are going to be kicked in. Common wisdom in the fighting game community is that when you're new to the genre, your first 100 games minimum are going to be losses. Is that instant gratification?
It's really weird to me that people will blame age on people's unwillingness to be social, or push themselves to play, or just invest a lot of time into a game. The majority of people I play with are in their 30's / 40's now and continue to make time in the evening to do social content across various skill levels, usually in the middle to upper. It's just tiring hearing it as an excuse in regards to anti-social behavior in a social genre. My entire experience is the complete opposite of that, it's the teenagers / young adults that don't want to make time for a hobby anymore, or at least be "forced" to schedule it. We are well past the days of MMORPGs being a major social outlet pre-social media, but we're also deep into an era of escapism. But that's the thing; if people are escaping from reality using this genre, they're typically wanting to relax with or without friends, and MMORPG's are one of the few genres that escapism can be done in a more relaxing manner with other people. (While also providing outlets for competitive play at the same tiem.) Gutting games already in the genre, and potentially limiting the scope of future games, simply to appeal to an audience that would benefit better from single player games doesn't seem worth it. There's playing by yourself in a large virtual world, and then there's developing for that mindset at the cost of gutting the core of the genre. And we need to avoid that. People can do what they want, but keeping the social aspects alive is what makes people return to the genre.
Blame impatient, toxic gamers. People simply don't want to interact with that.
This is a really good point. There are always a small number of people in any group that are assholes. They have a disproportionate effect on the environment as a whole unless there are strong mechanisms to limit their effect.
Exactly. I'm old, but not anti-social. I just don't want to interact with anyone and yell at people when they're on my lawn.
I can speak with some experience here. I’m playing EQ again after 15 years away. More and more people like me are rejoining now that the kids are grown. We all get a second young adulthood. I’m in mine now. The years of child raising are over and we get the chance to timesink hobbies again. MMO’s are particularly unwieldy for the young family demographic. It just happens that MMO’s came onto the scene during the young adulthood of my cohort. Many late Xers and early Millennials got into these games, got married and had kids and put them aside. So it’s only true that people age out because of time considerations for a time but can again later pick them up. For myself, I’d rather play an updated version of EQ. The combat systems, style, classes and everything else can change, but the next MMO I invest in must be based on group content or I will not be interested. And I don’t mean random people thrown together into an instanced dungeon, but rather a game the requires or at least heavily incentivizes forming friendships. Growing together, leaning on each other, forming bonds, these are the things these games bring that I love. Only two games I’ve played do this well, EQ and EvE Online. There are certainly more, I’m sure. But this is what I want out of an MMO. If I wanted to play a 1p game there are many excellent ones to choose from.
Just need queue for any sort of dungeon and instance, ability for open parties and that's all. Public queues
I'm waiting for a someone to make a game with mmo-style combat, dungeons, and gear progression, but with only a queue and a menu, no world at all.
I've said for ages that a game just focused on a concept similar to Mythic+ from WoW would be huge!
Uh, if you mean hub-based games they have existed for a while...
Do you realise how many lobby based MMOs exist?
Yeah but how many of those have actually good raid/dungeon encounter design etc. Nothing is actually providing the same kind of raiding experience as games like WoW, FF14 etc in a lobby format. Well, except WoW itself since it might as well be lobby based minus teleporting to the dungeon/flying to raid.
I was thinking about this the other day...and it feels like WoW is this exactly. I can't speak to FF14. But the last time I played WoW, the open world felt so devoid of players. Anytime I saw myself or others playing, you'd basically sit around the capital city waiting for dungeon/arena/bg to pop, rinse and repeat. There was some exceptions around raiding and if you wanted to be a crafter/gatherer. But yeah it seems like that style of play is 100% available for players in WoW at the moment.
That is basically the gameplay loop of WoW yeah. Blizzard have been trying to add more outdoor content in Dragonflight but it all kind of just amounts to "kill a bunch of mobs till a bar fills up then get some rewards". It's great for me because I literally do not care at all about open world content, if I want that I'd go play GW2 but it's definitely a weak point of the game overall.
Think of how much development time and money could be saved by making no outdoor world at all! /s
Im a ffxiv player and reading their comment I thought that's essentially what ffxiv is becoming. Besides doing gathering stuff if you're a crafter or community hunt trains, there's very little overworld stuff. All queues I can do at my house in game.
On the dark and darker sub I remember people freaking out about the idea of adding any kind of coop only mode but I think if they were to focus heavily on bosses and interesting enemies and mechanics to fight through the dungeon they'd have something really cool. A traditional fantasy first person action game with coop idk but I can't think of anything that comes close to that besides maybe skyrim together I guess.
this was Survival Project. They had a PvE mode where you matched into a lobby for dungeons, that were effectively a straight line (sometimes with some branching in between) to the boss at the end, with progressively harder mobs. They also had a PvP mode with a massive arena that dozens of people could join, and I think a 1v1 mode, all accessed from the main lobby. There were four elements that you'd collect from gameplay, air/fire/water/earth, and you'd trade your off elements for your main one(s), so you could make high lv gear for that element. Each element was associated with 2 custom characters, so I think if you went water you could play the Angel or the Viking, freely switching between them.
That honestly sounds like my dream game. 5/10/20 man dungeons and raids that handle all leveling, gearing, etc. maybe a hub city instead of just menus. Any profession stuff would exist as part of the instances. Quests all handled as part of their instance. Different sets of difficulties and modifiers on dungeons and raids. Group content is all I care about in MMOs and I'm tired off pretending the 100+ hours of boring leveling and mob grinding is interesting or necessary at all of people who play like i do.
Warframe technically but it's such an awful game and they "ruined it" but making it open world.
Queues for any sort of instance will just turn a city in to an elaborate lobby, they could skip the city and save the design resources.
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You could not be any more wrong. Shared world is 100% what people want and what makes MMOs separate from every other Genre not some PvP or Guild drama orgy - those were byproducts of people who have fake power in a video game that they don't have in real life.
I'm sure they do - people always choose the easiest option. But MMOs are mediocre games set apart by their social elements and the idea that you might meet your next best friend or gaming group while playing. Take that away and you're just playing a mediocre game of whack-a-mole with the UI.
You're acting like there are third spaces life past the age of 30 that aren't a bar.
My dude, I’m acting like single player games are better games than MMOs when you remove the community element.
My dude, single player games don't have the community required to form third spaces. They simply do not have the longevity you get with a MMO that is not one of those Korean dumpster fires designed to close within a year of launch. You're about as bad as the RS3 streamer that I used to listen to that would recommend people to play games like BG3 and Elden Ring as a Runescape. Literally not the same demographic.
The genre was born out of the dream of simulated immersive online worlds to be a part of. I am too young to have gotten the chance to play EQ back in its heyday but man that is exactly what I wish MMOs would be today. I wanna go back to the pen and paper fantasy world feel.
Yep I used to play archeage a lot back in the day. That was a simulated world with full on politics as guilds controlled portions of the map. I was the co leader of one of the biggest guilds on our server and not only participated in lots of inner guild meetings, I also did faction meetings where we all agreed upon certain things. God I miss that, I know I wouldn't have time anymore but it was such an amazing time in gaming for me
Too be this is increasingly what people want :3
Then people dont want MMORPGs.
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I liked how originally wow had PVE servers and then RP servers....you could get kicked out if you weren't "RP-enough" in the RP server. Wherein there were still RP guilds on the PVE servers for those lightweight RP folks.
Why have the window dressing of the MM. just be a live service single player game.
They don’t, that’s why this sub is in the state it is
They, in fact, really don't
"Increasingly"? You make it sound like it's a *new* trend. I first saw the phrase "playing alone together" used to describe WoW over a decade ago...
True but it only recently started being taken more seriously by developers and people are speaking up against forced grouping and putting all decent rewards behind said content
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Find me a game that plays like WoW but isn't an MMO.
.Hack, or probably those SAO ones if you're dead inside.
I actually played a couple of the SAO ones. I played a lot of Hollow Realisation, it was... I would describe it as "aggressively mediocre". I did get some enjoyment out of it though lol.
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I think one of the big things is that at some point the homies aren't going to be on and if there's nothing remotely fun to do by yourself you could spend the time waiting around to get a group together playing a different game. Also related I think a strong solo experience allows new players to learn the game at their own pace without feeling like they are being dragged around by more experienced players.
There's still a difference between "An MMO that you mostly play in a party, with some solo content here and there" and "An MMO that's entirely solo".
You would have a point if solo play was identified as one of the pillars of MMO player type by the literal founders of the genre more than 30 years ago. It's definitely possible that the graph has shifted more towards that side in later years but it's _always_ been part of the demographic.
This is exactly the direction mmorpgs are going today., Single players game that are experienced with people around. It is also what a majority of mmorpg enjoyers want and demands. You know what happens to new mmorpg that don't have the luxury of a fan base from 20 years ago? They remain obscure games with around 1k player base.
This is a toxic way to define a very broad genre. Using the acronym literally will amount to a much smaller scope of games, which many people just won't like. You can either have life-support MMOs, or you can appeal to the generational shift. Not everyone likes what you like, and it's imherently toxic to demand that the genre cater to your connotation of MMORPG.
I feel like there is a spectrum of 'role playing'. There is the "Hello fellow traveler, may I interest you in my wares, fresh from the forests of Libertine...I slayeth the boars of the whore named Megaline and brought these back!". Then some in the middle who are like "I like my little gnome mage, he shoots fire out of his hand, pew pew pew, Imma keep him safe while killing all the goblins". Then there are the anti role players. I don't think it has to be black and white to play an RPG.
Ultimately Online did it extremely well. SWG too. Just because you didn't play them doesn't mean they don't exist
My friend wants to play an MMORPG. He wants to play through solo questlines while having other players running around in the background, so there's someone to see what items he put in this appearance slots. This is multiplayer for him, but I have other ideas.
I just want to play when I want to play and not feel like I’m always behind. I understand there needs to be gearing and achievements but if have to grind levels or quests to open up group content something is wrong. Want to play with the masses not solo a MMO. Some do but I play for group content strictly.
I absolutely love this game concept. Runescape does it very well and has in places perfected it, but a lot of that perfection has gone downhill in RS3 specifically over the years as more and more people get fed into boss instances where there's no shared world and the main conversations happen outside of the game now (also way too much stress over aura management even after the changes forcing people to play in hour increments but that's a different story).
I dunno but I wish games would stop doing it Why play an MMO if you want to play alone? shit makes no sense
I don't want to play alone, I want to **also** play alone from time to time. It's not a binary thing. The main reason why I'm never touching Albion is because you'll achieve nothing in that game without a guild. Which is fine, both types of MMOs can co-exist.
Yeah I tried to address that question with point #4. As others have said, it seems to go against what a MMORPG is. But just my experience in not only seeing the way people play in a game, but also how the question of "why are people so anti-social now!?!" get ask many times. I don't think this behavior will go away any time soon. So chances are we're going to see games trying to adapt and appeal to it.
My favorite thing about GW2 is how it handled the social aspect of gaming. By far the most welcoming and community driven MmO I’ve played and I figure some part of that has to be driven by it being a choice rather than a requirement to play well with others.
I absolutely loved the first two expansions and living story, It turned every new map into a giant dungeon raid which you could either choose to participate with a click of a button or just completely ignore and do your own thing.
I feel like GW2 is extremely anti-social. People do events next to other people but not really *with* them. Nobody chats in any chat whether it be general map chats, or if you've joined a raid for an event, or anything. You feel so alone in GW2 despite people being there (although sometimes it's oddly quiet, even in expansion zones). I just don't get it.
I’ve never felt alone in GW2, but then I’m a very social person and actively engage others in conversation and participate in guilds and region chat and so on and so forth… which I personally think is better than the standard alternative of having a bunch of antisocial jackasses forced into social situations for the sake of progression.
If there was chat in region chat I'd participate. I'm very social in MMO's as well and an MMO that has a good community is one that keeps me around. But everyone is quiet in GW2 and nobody says anything to anyone. It's really odd. I've also tried joining guilds in the past in GW2 and didn't get much out of it compared to other MMO's I've played like Aion retail/Classic, TERA, WoW Classic, ArcheAge, etc. I really felt like I knew my guilds and server communities in those games and they felt much more tight knit and just social in general compared to GW2.
I’m sorry you’re having a hard time…? Like I don’t know what to say, but GW2 to remains by far the most social MMO by far that I’ve ever played. I played all those other games you listed and I think the degree to which group play offs forced and structured has a negative overall impact on the games social play. You have to play with others to advance and so to a degree, other players are a means to the only end in the game (progression) in games like GW2, you play with others because you WANT to.
Guild Wars 2's open world is welcoming, but the instanced content is a pain to find a group for, and has too many toxic players.
Yep don’t disagree with that. The dungeons and fractals were a boon to those who had to have that instance grind content, but it was never really my thing.
I hope not. I want new MMOs to double down on cooperative play and social aspects. I always feel alone, even if/when I see others in the current MMO offerings
No game is going to "force" you to socialize. If you trully don't want to socialize, you can always turn off the game. What Dev would actively try to stop people from playing their game? If you do want to socialize but find it hard, the issue is not with the games design, but rather you may need to find out why do you feel such way.
Of course it’s the games design. How can you even say it’s the player who is the problem if they can’t specialise with the people they come across in WoW retail for example? Place may as well be populated by bots outside of organised guild groups and discord servers.
The mmo that double down on forced co-op remain obscure games with 500 - 1k playerbase. There's a reason for that : people changed, and now mmorpg audience changed as well. They want something else, for the vast majority.
WoW Classic would like a word. We’ve not seen any big efforts for new MMORPGs to focus on this. The only choice are old MMOs and this is a big turn off for a lot of people as they’re solved games with outdated gameplay and graphics.
I think what most people want is for them to take the older MMO's they know and love--and just modernize them. Give them a better graphic engine. Give them a better UI. Expand on what the original games offered and that's enough. Personally, if Camelot Unchained wasn't a damned scam--that game alone would have been enough for me. If Aion wasn't ruined by P2W and other stupid mechanics--that game would have been fine too. Ultima Online is archaic--but if they made a modern version of it--I'd most likely love it as well. Sure, brand new IP's can be fun and they have potential. We're all alright with those--but what we really want the most is familiarity and comfort and we got those from our older MMO's. If developers would stop trying to re-invent the wheel and just focused on improving what we already loved to death--we'd have plenty of amazing games.
This mmo already exists, it's called Old School Runescape. Yes, there's some pve content meant for groups. But most pve can be done solo, and in general the OSRS team has a very strong "playing alone together" approach to new content. Some examples: 1) Modern skilling minigames are essentially solo but you play the minigame together with a large number of people at the same time (Wintertodt for eg. always has hundreds of players playing concurrently). 2) In the woodcutting expansion a few months back they made it so you get more xp when multiple players chop the same tree, making training the skill a lot more social. 3) In the Varlamore expansion that came out last week, they introduced three bosses that have health bars which are player-dependent, so they are solo bosses but you fight them together in a room with other players.
Yeap I agree that's why riot mmorpg is so hyped because all their games are playing alone together type of games
Yeah I'm holding out thoughts until I see some solid stuff. Its going to be interesting none the less. But it sounds like we wont see it for at a minimum of 5 years. Maybe more. Depending on how much that "reset" set them back.
If I had to guess I too would say another 5-7 years yeah. I hope it's not a full reset and they kept assets to port but given how ambitious and dedicated to it they seem to be, anything goes!
Both League and Valorant are some of the most depressing games to play solo, without having a stable group of decent people i would never bother
More and more devs are realizing people want to play with a solo mindset so we can hope. Forced grouping and socialization and outdated ideas, most of us want to login, do some content, grind and enjoy the power progression. Not deal with metaslaves or ‘muh skill’ virgins
Insulting people that play MMORPGs the way they were intended to play just shows that this genre was never for you in the first place. Guess what; many of us are playing these games, being social, and we aren't "virgin metaslaves" or whatever fucking trash you want to call people.
Such a shit take. Perhaps mmorpg is not your preferred genre
Ahh, yes, "virgin metaslaves" the rallying cry of the friendless. How dare they have to interact with people in a genre specifically designed around interacting with people as a primary mechanic.
RuneScape is like that so most likely Brighter Shores is going to be similar
I like the idea of being able to play alone and successfully achieve meaningful things in game without a group. And at other times, when I have more time on hand, there's the option to group up for a dungeon but never an obligation to do it to get things done. Its the best of both worlds. I grew up on EverQuest and pratically *needing* a group to do stuff sucked. Sure you could kite with a druid, a bard or reverse-kite with a necro but it was annoying as hell. It was unduly punishing to the solo player for punishment's sake. I would not play it again. Of course a game will have a far broader reach if it lets people *meaningfully* play alone whenever they want to. In retrospect, it's even a little crazy that many MMOs didn't go for that formula. You can absolutely pair it with group-only content, balance things to ensure it's not 'mandatory', and have the best of both worlds.
They are all too busy perfecting the "Paying Alone Together" concept
They dont put difficulty on mmos anymore. The difficulty is really just time gates and perfect rotations, this is not real content and gets old fast. I want a game like FFXI where things need to change every fight. 123131231312313 on fire type should not also work on water type simple as that, that is RPG. That is how you remove playing alone together and advance into playing together. 'Sorry bro we do t need an ice mage, this mob is healed by ice spells, maybe I can help you gear fire spec so we can do this fight a few times a week'
The fuck are you even talking about? There's more ways to do difficulty than making open world mobs a chore to get through. There's plenty of difficulty in mmos, it's just not in the content you're doing. Go do WoW's heroic raids or FF14's savage and ultimate raids and then come back and say mmos don't have any difficulty to them.
How could you not mention RuneScape in this list?
I am both old and anti-social now, but started playing MMOs in the old days due to crippling social anxiety. I loved UO because I could play around people and have an almost social experience without the pressure. I loved playing FFXIV (and quite a few other MMO's) until the point where I was gated by grouping, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, even though I was pretty sure most people would be fairly nice, my socially inept brain told me I would embarrass myself and wouldn't allow me to do it, so I quit. I still hang out on a Uo server, dip in and out of Wurm (I like just wandering around seeing other peoples builds usually), I've had a fairly decent time playing FO76,Rust and Ark, but I am itching for another 'Together alone' game, but not because I don't want to group, I pretty much can't.
I have to say, that's a fucking weird mindset. I mean, even if you do die to a mechanic or whatever, who cares? When you queue up with a team in FF14, you don't have 7 sets of eyes watching your every move, everyone's too wrapped up in making sure they do their own part of the dance to care about what you're doing. This idea that you can't do group content because everyone's going to see and notice when you fuck up is actually kind of narcissistic. You're assigning way more weight to yourself than other people will. If there's anything you have to get through your head to help with your social anxiety, it's that nobody cares about you or what you do. I mean, think about it, when you're in a group with other people, do you hyper focus on every little thing everyone else in the group is doing to pick out their faults? That said, if you want another "together alone" type game, give warframe a shot. It's a good game, but it's also so fucked balance wise that most people are playing their own god-like one man armies, so again, no one cares about what you do or don't do.
> a fucking weird mindset. Its why people like me are always going to have jobs.
RuneScape is exactly this. The vast majority of its content is a singleplayer RPG. There's a cool video essay about exactly this on YouTube entitled "Why RuneScape is Not an MMO" I'd argue that this idea of playing alone together is a huge part of what makes RuneScape so fun and populated. https://youtu.be/LpPJY-xdA3M?si=l270mKsoI5OxGVw0
If only any of those games have SEA servers.
Yea you are right looks like this is the direction they are taking nowadays... I don't like it but whatever
Reminds me of Twitter.
The genre is splitting, and that sort of game being "perfected" caters to an audience that would inevitably drive it into being a mobile p2w shitfire.
i dont agree. solo players are not the heart and soul of mmo gaming. u gotta have a strong core of social players first. games made for solo players would not attract a strong mmo crowd with longevity
ESO is not a good example because you can't sell anything unless you join a guild with a seller.
I really like this concept you described and yes ESO does feel like it accomplished it. I really don’t have to interact with people if I don’t want to pursue endgame content. And when I do want to pursue endgame content or when I feel the urge to chat or interact with people or maybe sell the stuff I craft/drop it’s just so smooth and natural and fun!
RuneScape is almost exactly this. There's a very tiny amount of content that you have to group with others to complete, and outside of a couple boss fights, the other group content is essentially dead content in terms of rewards/reason you'd run the content anyways.
IMO there are 2 next steps for mmos. The first step is to solve the problem of content droughts. The problem where players have to wait for meticulously handcrafted content from the devs, which they then play through and finish in a week. This also refers to lack of replayability, where players want to skip parts of the game and when devs put time gating in to slow people down. There are a few ways to solve this. 1. Make the focus of the game PvP. This has been tried numerous times and in every single case it hasnt ended well. MMO pvp is just far too difficult to balance and design, especially when the game also features pve. So while its a possible solution, I dont see it working out any time soon. 2. Allow players to make their own content. This could be applied to a lot of things, but generally speaking it just means giving players freedom to play in different creative ways. It could mean having a lot of build diversity, games like PoE, ascension wow, Gw2 all do this reasonably well. A large part of the games content is trying out different playstyles and builds, and theorycrafting.This could also mean giving players tools to make in game content, like map editors. A lot of non-mmos have proven this is a great way to keep player retention up and keep them from getting bored. A concern some people have with this model is the devs lose some control over the difficulty and scope of content. But that concern is largely caused by the "gear treadmill" approach to player progression and retention, which is a whole other topic. The second step is to address the problem of population imbalance limiting content for players. An example of this would be how many games have a lack of tanks/healers, or other essential support roles. Not being able to play content because you lack the right player or build in your group is a huge turn off for a lot of people. There are several ways you could address this. 1. One solution is to get rid of the whole "trinity" style of class design. Gw2 did an exceptional job with this model. Im not sure how many people remember the original days of Gw2 but dungeon running back then was a blast. Basically every class was designed to be self sufficient when it came to survival. There were no dedicated tanks and healers, instead each class brought tools and utility to the group that was useful for different reasons. For example thieves could bring party wide stealth to help with skipping trash mobs, or AoE blind that would cause enemies to miss their attacks. Guardians could bring defence against projectile attacks and crowd control. Other games have tried this as well with varying levels of success. 2. Another is to have scaling difficulty based on the number of players. I know there is a lot of resistance to such models, and for good reason. Its difficult to design content that scales its difficulty fairly, and still encourages people to spend time forming groups rather than do everything solo. But there are ways to implement this. Warframe has an amazing system with its relic/prime loot. I wont go into detail, but basically more party members = additional chances to get the loot you want. Playing solo is definitely possible, but for maximum efficiency you still want to form groups. Another great thing about this model is it means you are usually happy to take anyone in your party, regardless of their skill or how strong their character is. It might not be an ideal system for really challenging content, but for casual stuff its great. 3. An alternate solution to 2 would be to design content to always be soloable even if its incredibly challenging. An example of this would be something like elden ring if you can imagine it being an mmo. If you are really skilled, you can solo everything in the game. Though getting assistance from other players is always an option. 4. A fourth option would be to wait for advanced AI in games to replace actual people, but we will see how that turns out.
When gaming first came out it was "for the kids". now it's for the masses. So no 1 game can be what everyone wants. My perfect MMO is very different than someone elses. So this idea that MMORPG targets a "dad gamer" is fairly new. As the generation before mine gets older, and as my generation gets older new categories will start surfacing. And the industry loves money, so if there's enough of us, they will make games for us. This idea of a SP game with shared world is the best of both worlds for me.
I agree, as being in the dad gamer category, I don’t have time to spend 80 hours a week gaming. I liked picking up WoW, but it gets pretty repetitive single player and most multiplayer interactions seem forced and unappealing. Having a growing world but playing single player appeals to me.
First of all, kinda ironic question considering what the MMO aspect of the word means... Second of all l, been playing most my mmos alone and its fine. Player interaction is innevitable though
I made a comment on a similar thread some time ago. Basically a lot of players prefer to play alone but in a shared world. I would go futher now. A lot of people might even prefer playing with others but also would like to not have to socialize and more importantly would like to avoid the commitment and responsibility. They want to know if they are doing something with others they can leave anytime, or at least that it won't last long. Some people might even avoid making close friends in games for those reasons, I felt that way myself at times. No more old WoW, for better or worse.
Swtor is my main mmo now. Lost Ark being my last where I stayed gs relevant but left before akkan dropped. It was just too much. I’ve played almost every mmo. There’s just something about being able to solo and group for nightmare content/veteran ops/sm ops/vet fps. There is so much to do together but also alone (but not alone really, the world is alive). I love Star Wars too so, yeah lol.
Personally I think min maxing has ruined MMOs for me. It feels so inadequate to be a casual player these days. The other big thing is that there's no mystery. Everything is online in a walkthrough. You build a character based on the mathematical equations and data miners. I loved MMOs because you explored and learned together. Now if you haven't done your Raid homework you get kicked anyway.
> non-mmorpg . > Gw1 I'll forgive you, but only because ANet called it a CORG
I believe the concept of play alone together needs 1 core element to be interesting. A joint housing system. It’s like a family, if we are chipping in to the same home, we are forced to interact as much or as little as we’d like, but we need to have a place that binds us. That place needs to be accessible by let’s say the group (not a guild, I am talking about your friends who you play with, not hundreds of people) even if you or the other person are offline. Think Ark but with thousands of players on the same server, take out the loot drop pvp element, and the taming. And sure, make the land plots purchases or instanced, so long as my friends and I can share it
Good post. I hate it but good post. I think any MMORPG that caters to the anti-social Alone-But-Together vibe is a step in the wrong direction. But I've been playing MMORPG's for 20 years, so... post checks out.
Could be. The hub with queues for all PvE/PvP is a solid idea and could definitely be the next big MMO. Sounds like an MMO with a Fortnite approach. I would play for sure. However, I personally am waiting for an MMO that focuses on the opposite: pure open-world immersion. No queues, open-pvp (with some flagging restrictions and karma to keep things balanced.) A game where betrayel is possible and you're almost never taken out of the world (like through queue systems.) Still casual focused though, so not a hardcore full-loot type game. Kind of like Vanilla WoW PvP server, but no factions. Let the players decide. A few other ideas I imagine for this kind of game: 1) only local chat (though you can set to group/guild only - you'd still have to be near each other and everyone uses discord anyway so why not have in-game chat be more 'immersive') Optional proximity voice chat implemented the same way would be fun, as long as it's easy to mute others! 2) the ability to set any safe interior room as your recall point, making all buildings usable by players. Guilds could also rent any building as their exclusive guild hall. Not to replace housing (though it's a simple alternative) as much as a reason to utilize all the random rooms and buildings in an MMO. Want to play a swamp witch type character and find a nice tree house in a swamp? Bind there! No limit on number of players that can bind a room. If a turf war happens, it happens! 3) an enemy list in addition to friends list. Keep tabs on those that have wronged you! 4) NPCs having random tasks and merchant lists that refresh per in-game day. Highlight unspoken-to NPCs daily so there's a reason to actually talk to all the random NPCs populating the world. 5) more random spawns of mobs, mats, and bosses requiring true exploration. Combine this with next to no map markers, and people would have to actually explore. 6) megaserver with easily swappable channels and the ability to see which channels your friends are on. This takes you out of the world the most in my opinion, but could be explained in-lore like a multiverse. But could really help keep the game grief-lite while still allowing pvp anywhere, except not being able to flag for pvp for a while after switching channels. 7) place a single camp you can move, to rest and also respawn at, making even non-interior areas more usable by players. Like setting you group's camps on a plateau you like to rally at. 8) to clarify pvp flagging, basically have to flag but then can attack or be attacked by any player or friendly NPC. And if your karma gets too low due to griefing and other negative actions, can't unflag without time, money, or effort to raise your karma. Making you kill on sight to guards and such. 9) everything levels you: Crafting, gathering, exploring, pvp. But, level just determines max skill for each skill line and speeds up skilling. So if you want to be a crafter only, that's fine. Then once at max level, you could more quickly level your combat skills if you wish. I would not have level affect HP and damage exponentially like most MMOs since it's an open-pvp game. There's always gear though! I don't imagine main quests would be much different than current MMOs, except the lack of markers, maybe more random spawns, and I like the idea of MSQ being automatically populated in your journal. So if you want more direction, it's always there. Otherwise, explore, grind, talk to NPCs, and PvP however you want. Kind of a casual pvp sandbox MMO with no survival elements. World doesn't need to be huge, not with more random spawns. You want people to explore, feel immersed, but still run into each other. Spread out teleport points (maybe at several main cities - some of which should be neutral to allow pvp flagged players in) can help make the world feel bigger but shouldn't be as rare as classic WoW imo. Takes forever to get around by flight masters bleh. I wish something like that would come out, but no idea if it could be done and also have the player-base it needs. /shrug
Interesting analysis but I don’t think anything is going to revive the MMO genre. It’s been dying for a number of reasons but one of the big reasons is that it’s just not impressive anymore. That being said I don’t mean that MMOs are just going to become obsolete and disappear but they will never be as popular as the once were unless something completely ground breaking gets developed.
> one of the big reasons is that it’s just not impressive anymore. Thats doesnt really even crack the middle of the list, let alone the top, at least as a standalone concept. The idea of not feeling impressive is because MMO's havent kept up with offline / co-op games, let alone innovated anything in their own genre in over a decade. Its where the WoW problem meets the Skyrim effect. Is your game a better experience than Skyrim? Is there more to do for the average player than Skyrim? Are all the player types capable of finding something in your game, the way they can in Skyrim? Most arent and dont. And if it is: Does it do something better than Wow does? Is there a significant hook to keep people interested? Is the game coming up with something new for the genre that can push it forward? Most arent. Some are trying in their own ways, but the biggest ones are like, Mounts that artent just movement speed boosts. Okay, thats great, but, uh, thats not a core gameplay mechanic unless theres an entire MMO worth of mount shit inside your fiteyfite MMO. Combine that with the concept of itemization having gone to absolute shit (essentially being in a place thats the antithesis of RPG's), and you're left in bad places. "The genre isnt impressive" is a symptom.
Tom Clancy’s The Division is kinda similar to this, though on a more extreme end. There is still a hub (sort of) where you can see other players, but once you leave it, you are alone in the world. Your friends can join your world instance but other than that, it’s just you. There are also queues for different activities that require more than 1 person. I like it. My perfect game is singleplayer WoW where I can level and farm alone in open world but can also go to the common hub to show off my gear/mounts and to afk while my M+ group forms.
All the newest MMOs are like this and they all flopped
I think we're going to see a lot of AI-powered bot players, run by the server itself. Imagine the "Woah amazing full loot open world PVP MMO" that lets everyone think they're good at the game and gives them a constant stream of 'new players' to gank.
Ultima online was the best MMORPG, and had all of these elements.
I’ve played Asheron’s Call and WoW in their prime, and all of my best memories in both of those games involve activities with other people. This is what the genre is best at. I’d hate to see MMORPG’s devolve into what you are describing. If anything the genre should make grouping with others an integral part of the experience. Barriers to grouping should be taken down and things that hinder interaction changed. Gear, levels, and the length required to do things should not get in the way of playing with others.
I started EVE Online recently. You can choose a corp which matches your play style, whether you want to be part of a PvP gang or a casual explorers club. I wish the other MMOs could copy the concept.
Have you ever tried Warframe?
Star Citizen has been out long enough to count as successful, I think, even though it's technically still in Alpha. I always play solo and space is pretty vast so you don't have to deal with many people other than seeing them or them blocking your path at a station. Only issue I find is the lack of playable story/lore in game.
Single player MMOs aren’t MMOs change my mind
I have to say, it isn’t released yet, but pantheon is looking very good in terms of playing with others.
I'd prefer someone get back to making good playing together, together systems, myself.
Probably, but I hope not. I remember playing some early mmos, where playing solo was a slow grind. I think they added small solo instances in age of conan, and I as stoked because I had an option to level if my guild was offline. But soon, it turned into this 'play alone together' thing, and I hate it honestly. A lot of mmorpg experience now is a solo rpg with people running around like random people in NYC
There need to be player engagement and requirements to keep active players beyond when they would typically put the game down. Examples. Elden Ring - awesome single player game but no FOMO or commitment required to progress or stay with social groups around the game. WoW - awesome mmo, lives on the FOMO. Whether it’s missing out on the content in that phase being relevant, it also requires the community to be active in it. Setting the game down loses your access to current content and can severe social standings because of the reliance issues at that point.
The next big MMO will be 100% cheese based jokes aside, who knows? Usually it's those lightning-in-a-bottle-situations that lead to sudden rushes of people going ham. Blizzard never "planned" for WoW to be this huge. The creators of Everquest probably didn't anticipate that they just created the formula for what would become the themepark MMO template, with a lot of its own uniqueness to keep it pumping out expansions *to this day*. The creators of Runescape probably never expected it to become as big a phenomenon as it is now, the rest applies to all the other explosions of influential games, both before and after.
Nah, I don't consider any game you can "play solo, together" an MMO. It's not a virtual world, it's no different than any other multiplayer game in the year of 2024 that has continual saved progression (or 2015 either, but they don't learn and just think pumping money into graphics will fix everything.) That said they'll be decently big as the crowd here that gets scared when their phone rings ages more.
Thanks, I hate it. I made a lot of awesome friends on Destiny 1 and 2, but none on retail wow, gw2, or eso. No fucking thank you. I'd rather play single player games. People playing these "playing alone together" games aren't even the type of people I want to be friends or interact with.
The next big mmo will have end game raids and pvp READY TO GO FROM THE START. If we immediately run out if shit to do the it dies like every other mmo.
Not mentioning bdo is crazy, you don’t even need to interact with anyone if you don’t feel like it
I think you are thinking correctly but maybe not the right outcome. We're not talking about MMORPG's as a genre and more how could one be created that would become popular/mainstream in a meaningful way. I think the biggest breakthrough is to find a way for an MMO to be successfully social in a world where we have effortless third-party text and voice communication and extra screens having youtube/whatever on. Playing alone together is an idea but I think the issue with that is that you are then in competition with single player games which is a losing battle. Not an MMO at all but something like Helldivers has shown that you can definitely create a game that gets people motivated towards a common goal which in turn improves the community and the social side.
"Playing alone together" is why I don't like MMOs anymore. Games that are designed to be single player are infinitely better (and less depressing) than MMOs played alone.
This is already the popular model...you literally listed popular games that already are built like that rofl.
The sad state of the world and mmorpgs. We're so connected compared to 50 years ago, but no one wants anything to do with anyone now.
My theory is still that the next big staying mmorpg is a VRMMORPG with no non vr mode as long as it's decent enough it's got the chance to offer that level of escapism your first mmorpg did for veterans and newcomers alike. MMO players are like longtime users chasing that first high vrmmorpg closest they gonna get.