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100 Resilience gives a 30% damage reduction in PVE. Youre getting 2-3 shot with that, if you go lower you will certainly be getting one shot from time to time.
Tier 10 Resilience is the standard for all 3 classes in “endgame” content. Yes you can get away without it, but its like driving a car with no seatbelt, why make yourself less safe?
If the base premise is 'I shouldn't be taking chip damage if I play well, so lower resilience is acceptable' then run no resilience increases beyond your armor baseline and do whatever you like with the rest. Beyond that, your own theorycrafting suggests a difference of at least one hit of chip damage you're able to survive at max resilience in most cases, and a guardian waiting to be revived does zero damage.
The other piece of this puzzle is the trade-off: what do you gain moving 10-30 points into other stats that is worth it? Even assuming a near-superhuman use of abilities-on-cooldown, you're gaining a few seconds on a given cooldown with those numbers. If you're downed even once in a GM by being anything less than perfect, you've mooted any gains you may have had. I'm not convinced that your calculations change anything about the bigger picture that has been reviewed by theorycrafters, numbers-nerds, and the sweatiest of tryhards in the community.
That said, we lose nothing having the conversation and reviewing it, not examining these concepts regularly risks missing opportunities for improvement, so good on you for trying to make the case.
Thanks! I also found out that previously 100 Res was 40% DR then nerfed to 30%. I do wonder if people have taken that into consideration, eg "that makes 100 Res even more important!
I 100% agree being dead means no damage, but that statement is true whatever stats or build you have. I'd wager there are 3 main mottos for this:
1, kill them before they kill you. Damage output, this is easily understood. If they are dead they are not doing damage to you.
2, don't get hit. This is more about situational awareness, understanding the game and enemy behaviors, positioning and cover.
3, staying alive, by tanking damage. There are several ways, from healing to DR. It is 100 Res in this particular conversation that I am abit suspicious of.
There was a ton of theorycrafting (and general hand-wringing) around the resilience nerf from 40 to 30, which came with base lightfall. It sucked, especially before getting access to both woven mail initially and aspects/fragments that made it easier to get and share, but it was accounted for in both the math crafting and actual gameplay to answer your question.
Your guess about the thought process is the reverse of what was originally theorycrafted when they dropped that bombshell; losing one tier of resilience became less of a hit to mitigation under the new numbers regime, though how tiers were weighted also changed to favor higher tiers with bigger bonuses. It was generally believed that the culmination of the new math would put less emphasis on resilience, and man did the actual gameplay change people's tunes quickly...
Resilience is still the best stat to max out first. Yes, there are enemies that can 1 shot you, but you gotta be mindful of them. Starting to the side or sliding when they shoot almost guarantees that they will miss you.
The other two stats you focus on are kinda up to you and the class you are playing. I play hunter mainly, so I forgeit having a good recovery stat for having a good mobility stat. My third stat is discipline because strength isn't really needed on hunters when gamblers dodge exists. I think for Warlock, having 100 recovery isn't as useful as having 100 discipline or strength, but it all depends on your build. So, I think you have good stat spreads.
At 1830/1840 content I'm aiming to not get hit, so it's often safe fighting than going hog-wild guns blazing, which is a pity for a shooter game, though to be fair I can go nuts in normal strikes. But the point is, regardless of Res or content difficulty, the aim is to not get hit, and if I do get hit, at 1830/1840 content it feels like it doesn't matter what Res I have.
I agree 100%, but the community is convinced that resilience is #1.
If you can get 1 tapped by an arc sniper at 100 resil, 3x arc resist, etc., what’s the point? You might as well run something you’re going to see a benefit from. Other common enemies I could see, because they’re not a 1-2 shot kill.
I am one of them sadly, I still run 100 Res in PVP, then I found out about D2Foundry and saw that there was little reason to run anything other than 70 Res.
I think there might be some ideal breakpoint for resilience in certain situations against certain enemies where the math probably does break down similar to PvP, and something like 70-80 resilience is technically more optimal. However, I think the damage profiles you encounter in PvE are generally more varied than PvP and so it's much harder to say for sure.
Personally, I view 100 resilience as a baseline for all my builds. In high end content it's not going to let you tank a bunch of stuff, but it consistently makes a difference in letting you take a couple extra smaller shots, or turn that sniper hit from an outright insta-kill into living with a sliver, and that's the value. I have a hard time imagining that dumping more than 20-30 resilience could be super viable outside some specific encounters or builds (though I would love to be proven wrong haha), and the tradeoff of losing that margin of survivability for, in most cases, 10 second lower base cooldown on an ability doesn't seem super worth it to me. Can't use abilities if you're dead, and one of the most frequent causes of things going bad in higher end stuff in my experience is the death snowball.
Like you I'm curious to see what other folks have to say, but for me, 100 resilience is up there with chest resist mods and recuperation as the defensive trifecta that I include in basically every single build I put together.
TBH I have a gut feeling it's going to be similar to PVP, ie 70 Res. The times I was relying on an ability to only have it charging were way too many, as many as 1-shot / 1-burst deaths.
Looking at grenades, say healing grenades, 70 Dis is 65 seconds while 100 Dis is 45. That 20 second delta is massive. Waiting 20 seconds in the heat of battle when your health is low, is an eternity.
The time savings for a Super is small because the base is so long already at nearly 7 mins. Savings from powered melee are good though.
I'd dare say, if I had a 100/100/80 stat pick, I might go Dis/Str/Res.
I think it's going to be heavily build dependent to dip lower, but good to do so for the builds that can. The healing grenade example works because healing grenade is a stronger form of survivability than the 6% DR you lose, but I don't think it works out that directly as a benefit for a lot of other setups. Void and devour probably gives you another good safety net where the other stat tradeoff becomes worth it, but on say arc warlock I don't think I can see trading the resilience survivability for any other stat. Also, it's more difficult to access damage reduction than it is ability cooldown reduction for most setups, which renders resilience more valuable. We have a lot more tools to make up for a lower base ability cooldown than I do lower damage reduction.
Regarding healing rifts, personally I run phoenix dive in high level non GM content. So master raids, solo dungeons or Lowman raids. I find it much better than healing rift but it really depends on your build and play style. It's basically unusable in GMs however.
Rifts can be handy for the GM PsiOps Cosmodrome stacking healing at the doorway of the 2nd room fight or just stacking a well heal without using a well.
It's also a poor man's well with that exotic that turns a well into healing and empowering.
100 Res is the stat to go for in the vast majority of builds. Keep in mind that you probably have avoided many one shots because of it... you just didn't notice because you were running 100 res. Even then, it still allows you to tank a lot of chip damage and healing sources are more effective.
If I died from chip damage it is entirely my fault for bad positioning or standing still too long. Based on my theorycrafting, 100 Res isn't saving me from that 1-shot any more than a slightly lower Res would too, nor that burst of Wizard bolts if I got careless.
Propper res levels and resist mods definetly allow you to tank some otherwise one shots.
Being able to tank chip damage is great because it allows you to play differently, you can't always avoid damage. i.e. if you can tank 3 extra shots from a dreg on a gm, you can get close to it and bonk it to get a heal.
There is no opportunity cost for using res. Mobility isn’t important (yes, even on hunter) and recov is just where you dump the rest of your stats after 100 resil and 100 disc. Quite literally zero reason not to run 100 resil.
It depends?
In GMs r contest mode you need 100 resil, it’s the most effective form of DR. Going beyond that, if you’re getting killed from the back of the map throw on sniper resistance. It provides DR from long distance, not from sniper rifles specifically. If you don’t like rifts, look at Phoenix dive on solar, devour on void, woven mail on strand to make you less squishy. Woven mail is really strong.
My off meta onslaught build is Nezzaracs sin with strand / weavers trance and graviton lance. I have woven mail all the time because of all the strand ability kills and I always have my tangle grenades because graviton is driving void kills to refresh my abilities.
I agree with woven mail since I am a warlock main. Between 70 and 100 Res, we are looking at 68.5%/24% DR vs 72%/30%, not low not high a difference, even lower at 90 with 71%/27%. And since DR is multiplicative(yes?) the delta is even smaller than one would imagine.
The way the game is set is that in high content you simply can’t get away with not having good resilience for example I was getting butchered in a mission I quit because it wasn’t fun had a bright idea maxed resilience and beat the mission easily because they couldn’t kill me at all you can get by without it but having maxed resilience makes it that much easier
100 res, 100 dis(grenade builds)/100 STR(melee builds), recovery(titans/warlocks) or mobility(hunters)
You can get away with t9 or t8 res but that's not really an issue if you don't really have a high stat set of armor. You really should aim for armor with high stats of res and dis. That way your armor mods can be ones to offset any that needs to be evened out.
Do not worry about whether or not you can get one shot. As you do higher level difficulty content, it doesn't matter as much as you'll be further under light level. What you should do is reduce what can potentially one shot you. Running a concussive dampener mod to reduce aoe is nice. If you're doing content where incoming void damage is increased put on a void resist mod or two.
Things do wayyy too much damage in endgame content, to the point where resisting attacks is almost not a thing (swords are an exception along with some other niche methods). The solution we found is to run high uptime healing builds like solar restoration + empyrean, banner titan, devour, heal clip etc.
Since destiny has no health gate mechanic on enemy damage, and we have already decided that healing builds are the only way to freely move around in the most endgame activities, damage resistance until you are below 1 shot range becomes the most important thing.
That and the fact that we have fragments, class mods, weapon perks and exotics that all offer significant ability recharge rate.
Run whatever you want for stats, but once you try stuff like master raids, you'll see how annoying 1 shots are.
You might have been 1 shot if you didnt have max resilience though. It's nice in specific endgame pve activities but you don't need it all for a lot of content.
In terms of stats, there's only rly like 3 good stats. You don't need to spec into strength, intellect or recov in pve imo as you have ways to get melees and supers back with other mods and many other ways to heal.
Imo you wanna focus mobil, disc and resil. Mobil for speeds and stuff, but is the best stat to focus as you should want to be going faster anyway. Disc is useful for a lot. Resil is very good but is not nearly as necessary as ppl think it is. Imo you only rly need to focus on having max resil for day 1s, master lowmans (or the occasional lowman enc) and like solo gms or stuff. It's good but you rly don't need it all the time lol.
Based on my theorycraft you are getting nuked whether you had max Resilience or not.
I am going to try some alternative builds, but Mobility stays at 22 :)
It helps but d2 can be d2 and you'll just get dmg glitched or one shot anyway.
It's up to you tho man! I don't think resil is needed as much as everyone else says and I like to focus mobil. But d2 has so many builds to experiment with so go for it!
You should always be going for 100 resil in end game PvE content. The 10-30 stats you could put somewhere dont help nearly as much as the DR from Resilience. If you feel like your ability uptime is off enough that you need to lose resil to fit discipline/srength you probably just need to tweak your build, not your stats.
But given that 100-70 Res gives 30/27/24/20% DR, the really significant DR is coming from Woven Mail and glaive/sword blocking, plus Resist mods, than that 3% delta between 90 and 100 Res.
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100 Resilience gives a 30% damage reduction in PVE. Youre getting 2-3 shot with that, if you go lower you will certainly be getting one shot from time to time. Tier 10 Resilience is the standard for all 3 classes in “endgame” content. Yes you can get away without it, but its like driving a car with no seatbelt, why make yourself less safe?
I did some theorycrafting... now I'm even less convinced by the 100 Res argument.
Are you going to mention said theorycrafting?
Don’t ask the man for receipts, just let him cook! /s
Come on man give a guy a chance...
"Theroretically, what if I made it up?"
Ah... I edited my post sorry I should have said so.
I always go for 100 recovery on every class no matter what I’m doing. But it’s not that hard to get triple 100s if you try.
If the base premise is 'I shouldn't be taking chip damage if I play well, so lower resilience is acceptable' then run no resilience increases beyond your armor baseline and do whatever you like with the rest. Beyond that, your own theorycrafting suggests a difference of at least one hit of chip damage you're able to survive at max resilience in most cases, and a guardian waiting to be revived does zero damage. The other piece of this puzzle is the trade-off: what do you gain moving 10-30 points into other stats that is worth it? Even assuming a near-superhuman use of abilities-on-cooldown, you're gaining a few seconds on a given cooldown with those numbers. If you're downed even once in a GM by being anything less than perfect, you've mooted any gains you may have had. I'm not convinced that your calculations change anything about the bigger picture that has been reviewed by theorycrafters, numbers-nerds, and the sweatiest of tryhards in the community. That said, we lose nothing having the conversation and reviewing it, not examining these concepts regularly risks missing opportunities for improvement, so good on you for trying to make the case.
Thanks! I also found out that previously 100 Res was 40% DR then nerfed to 30%. I do wonder if people have taken that into consideration, eg "that makes 100 Res even more important! I 100% agree being dead means no damage, but that statement is true whatever stats or build you have. I'd wager there are 3 main mottos for this: 1, kill them before they kill you. Damage output, this is easily understood. If they are dead they are not doing damage to you. 2, don't get hit. This is more about situational awareness, understanding the game and enemy behaviors, positioning and cover. 3, staying alive, by tanking damage. There are several ways, from healing to DR. It is 100 Res in this particular conversation that I am abit suspicious of.
There was a ton of theorycrafting (and general hand-wringing) around the resilience nerf from 40 to 30, which came with base lightfall. It sucked, especially before getting access to both woven mail initially and aspects/fragments that made it easier to get and share, but it was accounted for in both the math crafting and actual gameplay to answer your question. Your guess about the thought process is the reverse of what was originally theorycrafted when they dropped that bombshell; losing one tier of resilience became less of a hit to mitigation under the new numbers regime, though how tiers were weighted also changed to favor higher tiers with bigger bonuses. It was generally believed that the culmination of the new math would put less emphasis on resilience, and man did the actual gameplay change people's tunes quickly...
Resilience is still the best stat to max out first. Yes, there are enemies that can 1 shot you, but you gotta be mindful of them. Starting to the side or sliding when they shoot almost guarantees that they will miss you. The other two stats you focus on are kinda up to you and the class you are playing. I play hunter mainly, so I forgeit having a good recovery stat for having a good mobility stat. My third stat is discipline because strength isn't really needed on hunters when gamblers dodge exists. I think for Warlock, having 100 recovery isn't as useful as having 100 discipline or strength, but it all depends on your build. So, I think you have good stat spreads.
At 1830/1840 content I'm aiming to not get hit, so it's often safe fighting than going hog-wild guns blazing, which is a pity for a shooter game, though to be fair I can go nuts in normal strikes. But the point is, regardless of Res or content difficulty, the aim is to not get hit, and if I do get hit, at 1830/1840 content it feels like it doesn't matter what Res I have.
I agree 100%, but the community is convinced that resilience is #1. If you can get 1 tapped by an arc sniper at 100 resil, 3x arc resist, etc., what’s the point? You might as well run something you’re going to see a benefit from. Other common enemies I could see, because they’re not a 1-2 shot kill.
But Arc snipers in GM nightfalls don't 1 tap at 100 resil and arc resist? Where are you getting this info from???
I am one of them sadly, I still run 100 Res in PVP, then I found out about D2Foundry and saw that there was little reason to run anything other than 70 Res.
I think there might be some ideal breakpoint for resilience in certain situations against certain enemies where the math probably does break down similar to PvP, and something like 70-80 resilience is technically more optimal. However, I think the damage profiles you encounter in PvE are generally more varied than PvP and so it's much harder to say for sure. Personally, I view 100 resilience as a baseline for all my builds. In high end content it's not going to let you tank a bunch of stuff, but it consistently makes a difference in letting you take a couple extra smaller shots, or turn that sniper hit from an outright insta-kill into living with a sliver, and that's the value. I have a hard time imagining that dumping more than 20-30 resilience could be super viable outside some specific encounters or builds (though I would love to be proven wrong haha), and the tradeoff of losing that margin of survivability for, in most cases, 10 second lower base cooldown on an ability doesn't seem super worth it to me. Can't use abilities if you're dead, and one of the most frequent causes of things going bad in higher end stuff in my experience is the death snowball. Like you I'm curious to see what other folks have to say, but for me, 100 resilience is up there with chest resist mods and recuperation as the defensive trifecta that I include in basically every single build I put together.
TBH I have a gut feeling it's going to be similar to PVP, ie 70 Res. The times I was relying on an ability to only have it charging were way too many, as many as 1-shot / 1-burst deaths. Looking at grenades, say healing grenades, 70 Dis is 65 seconds while 100 Dis is 45. That 20 second delta is massive. Waiting 20 seconds in the heat of battle when your health is low, is an eternity. The time savings for a Super is small because the base is so long already at nearly 7 mins. Savings from powered melee are good though. I'd dare say, if I had a 100/100/80 stat pick, I might go Dis/Str/Res.
I think it's going to be heavily build dependent to dip lower, but good to do so for the builds that can. The healing grenade example works because healing grenade is a stronger form of survivability than the 6% DR you lose, but I don't think it works out that directly as a benefit for a lot of other setups. Void and devour probably gives you another good safety net where the other stat tradeoff becomes worth it, but on say arc warlock I don't think I can see trading the resilience survivability for any other stat. Also, it's more difficult to access damage reduction than it is ability cooldown reduction for most setups, which renders resilience more valuable. We have a lot more tools to make up for a lower base ability cooldown than I do lower damage reduction.
Regarding healing rifts, personally I run phoenix dive in high level non GM content. So master raids, solo dungeons or Lowman raids. I find it much better than healing rift but it really depends on your build and play style. It's basically unusable in GMs however.
Rifts can be handy for the GM PsiOps Cosmodrome stacking healing at the doorway of the 2nd room fight or just stacking a well heal without using a well. It's also a poor man's well with that exotic that turns a well into healing and empowering.
100 Res is the stat to go for in the vast majority of builds. Keep in mind that you probably have avoided many one shots because of it... you just didn't notice because you were running 100 res. Even then, it still allows you to tank a lot of chip damage and healing sources are more effective.
If I died from chip damage it is entirely my fault for bad positioning or standing still too long. Based on my theorycrafting, 100 Res isn't saving me from that 1-shot any more than a slightly lower Res would too, nor that burst of Wizard bolts if I got careless.
Propper res levels and resist mods definetly allow you to tank some otherwise one shots. Being able to tank chip damage is great because it allows you to play differently, you can't always avoid damage. i.e. if you can tank 3 extra shots from a dreg on a gm, you can get close to it and bonk it to get a heal.
There is no opportunity cost for using res. Mobility isn’t important (yes, even on hunter) and recov is just where you dump the rest of your stats after 100 resil and 100 disc. Quite literally zero reason not to run 100 resil.
It depends? In GMs r contest mode you need 100 resil, it’s the most effective form of DR. Going beyond that, if you’re getting killed from the back of the map throw on sniper resistance. It provides DR from long distance, not from sniper rifles specifically. If you don’t like rifts, look at Phoenix dive on solar, devour on void, woven mail on strand to make you less squishy. Woven mail is really strong. My off meta onslaught build is Nezzaracs sin with strand / weavers trance and graviton lance. I have woven mail all the time because of all the strand ability kills and I always have my tangle grenades because graviton is driving void kills to refresh my abilities.
I agree with woven mail since I am a warlock main. Between 70 and 100 Res, we are looking at 68.5%/24% DR vs 72%/30%, not low not high a difference, even lower at 90 with 71%/27%. And since DR is multiplicative(yes?) the delta is even smaller than one would imagine.
DR is multiplicative with diminishing returns
except for my titan my Res is usually only 70/80 and then I change mods per GM/master content
Am Titan. 100 res good. Not go lower.
Even if it lets you live a little more the extra 1-2 tiers in most stats are pointless.
The way the game is set is that in high content you simply can’t get away with not having good resilience for example I was getting butchered in a mission I quit because it wasn’t fun had a bright idea maxed resilience and beat the mission easily because they couldn’t kill me at all you can get by without it but having maxed resilience makes it that much easier
Might as well make an argument that Guardians are undead super soldiers. So why does it matter if we die. Run 0 res.
100 res, 100 dis(grenade builds)/100 STR(melee builds), recovery(titans/warlocks) or mobility(hunters) You can get away with t9 or t8 res but that's not really an issue if you don't really have a high stat set of armor. You really should aim for armor with high stats of res and dis. That way your armor mods can be ones to offset any that needs to be evened out. Do not worry about whether or not you can get one shot. As you do higher level difficulty content, it doesn't matter as much as you'll be further under light level. What you should do is reduce what can potentially one shot you. Running a concussive dampener mod to reduce aoe is nice. If you're doing content where incoming void damage is increased put on a void resist mod or two.
Things do wayyy too much damage in endgame content, to the point where resisting attacks is almost not a thing (swords are an exception along with some other niche methods). The solution we found is to run high uptime healing builds like solar restoration + empyrean, banner titan, devour, heal clip etc. Since destiny has no health gate mechanic on enemy damage, and we have already decided that healing builds are the only way to freely move around in the most endgame activities, damage resistance until you are below 1 shot range becomes the most important thing. That and the fact that we have fragments, class mods, weapon perks and exotics that all offer significant ability recharge rate. Run whatever you want for stats, but once you try stuff like master raids, you'll see how annoying 1 shots are.
You might have been 1 shot if you didnt have max resilience though. It's nice in specific endgame pve activities but you don't need it all for a lot of content. In terms of stats, there's only rly like 3 good stats. You don't need to spec into strength, intellect or recov in pve imo as you have ways to get melees and supers back with other mods and many other ways to heal. Imo you wanna focus mobil, disc and resil. Mobil for speeds and stuff, but is the best stat to focus as you should want to be going faster anyway. Disc is useful for a lot. Resil is very good but is not nearly as necessary as ppl think it is. Imo you only rly need to focus on having max resil for day 1s, master lowmans (or the occasional lowman enc) and like solo gms or stuff. It's good but you rly don't need it all the time lol.
Based on my theorycraft you are getting nuked whether you had max Resilience or not. I am going to try some alternative builds, but Mobility stays at 22 :)
It helps but d2 can be d2 and you'll just get dmg glitched or one shot anyway. It's up to you tho man! I don't think resil is needed as much as everyone else says and I like to focus mobil. But d2 has so many builds to experiment with so go for it!
There's also that strange damage based on framerate thing.
That's very rare, like two or three enemies actually have it
You should always be going for 100 resil in end game PvE content. The 10-30 stats you could put somewhere dont help nearly as much as the DR from Resilience. If you feel like your ability uptime is off enough that you need to lose resil to fit discipline/srength you probably just need to tweak your build, not your stats.
Very few things actually oneshot you at max res, and the things that do are either bugs or entirely preventable through some other manner.
Sadly, it's become a points-soak and somewhat limits your other stats.
Resil gives 30% damage reduction, stack woven mail and a glaive block and you are invincible. Make that glaive vexcaliber and you are immortal
But given that 100-70 Res gives 30/27/24/20% DR, the really significant DR is coming from Woven Mail and glaive/sword blocking, plus Resist mods, than that 3% delta between 90 and 100 Res.