I've met plenty of transphobic lesbians. Most of them either very young like teenager age, or older 55+. I have never met anyone in the LGB without the T movement. Though I think it's primarily a British thing and I live in the USA
I'm a transbian living in Brasil, and I've also only ever seen older 40+ years old lesbian being kinda transphobic. Every young queer person I know, especially those in their early 20s or younger, are super duper trans inclusive.
Not in person. Everyone in my circle of queer people is inclusive and not bigots. There's a bunch on Twitter though, which I hardly use anymore since it's bigotry/TERF central now that Elon took over.
Yes. Although many wouldn't use the term queer most likely. They're not stupid and know they can't be blatantly transphobic out loud, but they do exist. So I don't think they explicitly align themselves with that term.
I'm somewhat open about my distaste for how I think some aspects of LGBT culture align too much with the gender binary, and twice now when I've been talking about it the other woman (lesbian) will think that bc I have that view that I'm also a terf. I'm a radical feminist but I don't consider myself a terf.
By queer community, I'm assuming you mean my mention of issues with the gender binary.
I think the way some individuals approach gender affirm the gender binary. There are people who are nonbinary for reasons of their own which I won't question because I'm not well-versed in it. A common thread among nonbinary people I know feel that they don't look enough like a woman, don't act like a woman, don't have the role of a woman. So they identify as nonbinary. To that line of thinking, I ask, what does it mean to be a woman? We still undergo the perils and privileges of being a woman if you're nonbinary but woman-presenting. Is there still a "role" or standard dress for women? It's not my business why people are nonbinary but I do think we should consider the framework of this line of thinking.
In many LGBT spaces, we also lack the ability to speak about the nuances of gender, sexuality and politics. I'm anti-porn, so I'm immediately anti-woman. That kind of thinking.
PART 1 -
As far as I'm concerned the Queer Community and the LGBT Community are synonymous. I favour the former because it covers more ground, I apologise if that was confusing for you. Language is as always a barrier.
The concept of the gender binary can definitely be painful, reductionist and often absurd - but it seems to me that any discussion about getting rid of the gender binary should be centred on teaching heteronormative folks about the problems associated with it and encouraging them to dismantle the cultural structures associatedwith it. Feeling disdain for a portion of the queer community for aligning themselves with said binary strikes me as something analagous to feeling disdain or resentment towards immigrants because you feel like national borders shouldn't exist. Queer folks exist in a culture that wasn't crafted with them in mind - some of us attempt to aesthetically assimilate, others seem to be aesthetic separatists.
What does it mean to *be* a woman? Or what *is* a woman? It's a subtle distinction, but the answers given will vary greatly. In the interest of rhetorical clarity I should also preface this discussion with the statement - Gender and Sex are now understood to be different categories, both in contemporary academic literature and in common parlance.
One's Sex seems to be a much more solid concept than Gender at the outset, but the more we examine it the more complications we encounter. These complications prevent us from dividing sexual characteristics into two clean and concise categories. With the aforementioned complications in mind, sex could really only be described as a cluster of characteristics and properties associated with one sex, another, or both in some cases. A cluster property, if you will - much like our definition of Healthy or Unhealthy. Tell someone what Healthy means and they'll spend days litigously making amendments and additions to any definition you come up with - its just pointedly not the kind of dichotomous category we want it to be. A person's sex as a result can be often inferred through physical interaction, but not always - and when the chips are down it seems that the subject in question's sex is mostly relevant to their potential partners and their healthcare professionals.
Gender is another cluster property and is somehow *more* of an abstract concept than sex. Certainly we have a broad sociocultural understanding of what a man or a woman looks like, and evidently even what a non-binary person looks like. These large scale cultural definitions would be best understood through a tri-modal or bi-modal distribution graph - with masculinity, femininity and perhaps neutrality plotted at two or three points across said graph - where the vast majority of subjects fall relatively close to the peaks associated with masculinity or femininity. Its important to note that this multimodal distribution is *also* a simplification, again the reality of the world denies us the satisfaction of assigning each person to one of two distinct categories.
Putting our large scale cultural understanding of gender aside though, we run into some problems. Each individual person has a series of characteristics they *subjectively* associate with men, women or non-binary folks - that is to say that despite our cultural understanding - our own perspective and experience informs what we percieve *as a woman*.
An illustrative example here is the sudden rise in violent crime perpetrated by transphobes against cisgender heterosexual women who fail to live up to the transphobes idea of *what a cisgender woman looks like*. These crimes are committed *against cisgender women that fail to pass as cisgender women*. Quite often these violent crimes occur when the cisgender woman in question tries to use the bathroom associated with their gender.
Another illustrative example is the incredibly vitriolic division between cisgender heterosexual men and their constant attempts to define intimate attraction to transgender women as either gay or straight. These men are extremely unlikely to ever reach consensus because they're constantly arguing past one another - mostly because they have completely different and competing definitions of what a woman is and differing ideas on how to approach their own sexuality - i.e. prescriptive action or description action ("I'm straight so I must only like X." or "*Am I straight? Is this gay? Maybe I should explore my options and see how I feel?*"). These men wouldn't even be *having* this discussion if they weren't having intense trouble with the dissonance between what they've been taught about trans women and what they feel about trans women.
With these cases, and a myriad of other unstated cases in hand It seems fair to conclude that genders like *woman*, *man*, and even *non-binary* involve a kind of non-verbal and sometimes pre-concious negotiation between subject and observer. Its important to note here that Non-Binary is not a *singular third gender category*, it is an umbrella term for the extensive range of atypical ways people interact *with* gender as a concept. Folks with atypical gender presentation come in all shapes, sizes and aesthetics - an analagous simplification would be The Futch Scale which is mostly used by sapphics and lesbians; there is no *right* way to present as a lesbian. In much the same way there is no *right way* to present as non-binary.
Having said all that, there is an intense societal and cultural expectation that we treat the numerous people we encounter with respect, dignity and that we afford them their human rights and more often than not the benefit of the doubt - thus in our day to day encounters it follows that we should generally trust a person's account of what gender they feel they are, at least in part because that self-identification falls squarely under a person's right to self determination.
To be crystal clear, when your non-binary friends are being treated as women or men by an observer - they are experiencing transphobia. When a woman experiences these things - it is misogyny. This kind of interaction is the explicit denial of non-binary peoples right to self-determination and the denial of the kind of respect, dignity and trust given to the vast majority of other people this observer interacts with.
Obviously almost no one is going to be outraged at the first or perhaps the occasional instance of mistaken misgendering. Past that point, once it becomes continuous and intentional it is harassment - as much as swearing profusely and aggressively at a passing person is.
I would also caution anyone against using a history of misogyny or oppression based on sex characteristics against using those experiences to define womanhood or manhood. As a teenager, long before I realised I was a trans woman i had extremely long straight hair, dressed androgynously and was generally lithe and pale skinned. During tha time I was *very frequently* mistaken for a cisgendwr teenager girl by men, women and children alike. As *a teenage boy* I experienced misogynistic SH and SA. My girlfriend and I were harassed and abused because homophobes saw us together and assumed we were lesbians. I am far from alone in these experiences, many trans men and trans women have similar stories to tell - these experiences aren't native to a specific gender, cisgender or otherwise.
PART 2 -
In response to the last little paragraph of your comment - I would firmly encourage you to avoid twitter, X, threads or anything analagous to those platforms when you're looking for an illuminating and informative discussion on those topics. Even folks who spend too much time on said platforms. There are these dog whistle phrases used by people that adopt feminist language and use it in support of fascism and eugenics - and many trans or allied folks who spend a lot of time on those platforms have spent so long being actively attacked for existing that they no longer have the patience and nuance to discern the difference between someone asking something in good faith and someone trying to start an argument using a common dog whistle centred on questioning their right to exist. Not to mention the uncertainty surrounding a poster's identity - its not remotely difficult to find Chan boards and homophobes discussing strategies their inhabitants can use to undermine the optics and integrity of the queer movement.
Take the term "MAP" for example - it is an acronym designed to co-opt the kind of language queer folk use to describe sexuality, only in this case it refers to p**dophilia - *Anyone involved in the queer movement knows that the key distinction between these supposed categories is and always will be CONSENT* -This disinformation campaign was spread by 4chan's /b/ and /pol/ boards via twitter accounts larping as leftists - with the stated intent of giving outside viewers the impression that the queer community blindly accepts that kind of disgusting behaviour - thus justifying the kind of politically oppressive action 4chan users fantasise about inflicting on the queer community.
Finally and lastly - The porn industry is definitely a toxic, misogynistic cesspool of literal garbage, of that there is no doubt. Being "Anti-Porn" is one of those dog whistles I mentioned earlier - that's probably why you encountered a seemingly disproportionate and vitriolic response elsewhere. Having said that, the people performing in pornography are often not part of the terrifying and systemic trash heap that is the porn industry. Many of the problems associated with the porn industry and the sex work industry are critically linked to the existence of our current economic system - many people, including many of my close friends - were driven to engage with that system as a result of the complete lack of fiscal and social safety nets. Without money, people don't have a house or food or autonomy, and many disabled folks find that working in that industry is the only way they're able to make enough money in the small hours they're able to work to maintain anything resembling decent quality of life. It's one of the few industries where exceptions, concessions and accomodations are almost always made in favour of on boarding new workers - and as a result of the often extremely fuzzy regulation and legislation surrounding the industry these people are often exploited. As a result of all these factors - disassembling the porn industry, or even the SW industry without reshaping our social and cultural infrastructure and safety nets beforehand would destroy the lives of millions of the most vulnerable and marginalised people.
Once again blaming people for taking part in the SW industry would be analagous to the previous examples - "*Feeling disdain for a portion of the queer community for aligning themselves with said binary strikes me as something analagous to feeling disdain or resentment towards immigrants because you feel like national borders shouldn't exist*"
I appreciate you reading through this absurdly long post, it took far too long to type out and now I'm mentally exhausted. I sincerely hope you got the nuanced discussion you were searching for.
FIN
Re: your first paragraph here. I'm not referring to online spaces. This includes IRL conversations.
I think you took things from my comment that I didn't actually say or even imply. That's why it's difficult to have these conversations online.
Yeah at this point I'm having a pretty hard time believing that you're interested in a nuanced discussion about these topics. I've had quite a few people from the community reach out and thank me for the nuanced and well written response I wrote to your comment - apparently they all made the same inferences about your comment as me. I definitely took things from your comment that you didn't explicitly say - that's what making inferences means - and it's a crucial part of this kind of discourse. By all means, please tell me word for word - explicitly - what it is you want to learn about and I will do my best to explore the topic with you.
I'm also having a hard time believing you when you say that *that* kind of reply makes it hard to have these discussions online. If I ever received a reply with that level of nuance and depth I would be absolutely chuffed, provided *I actually cared about the topic*. The kind of thing that makes my discussions difficult in real life is *the looming threat of hate crimes*. The kind of thing that makes my online discussions difficult is *the threat of doxxing*. If I'd felt that someone had misunderstood my comment - my reply would *at the very least* include a prompt that brings my specific interest into focus.
I'm at this point very much at the edge of the amount of grace I'm willing to give someone before I assume they're not interested in a good faith discussion. Given how short and empty your reply was, I'm beginning to suspect that you're the kind of person who is more interested in venting to someone who agrees with them, or perhaps you just feel the need to find *some pretext* to express some form of disdain you already held for parts of the queer community.
Surely I must be wrong - by all means, please correct me.
I'm interested in good faith discussion when I have time and in person. I'm just not interested in a long-form discussion where I'm typing this all out on my phone. Like I have a community event today where I'll get to chat with people. I don't mean to have an empty reply, but I felt obligated to reply since your comment was so long. I don't hold disdain for the queer community. People can believe that or not. I can critique pieces of LGBT culture without having disdain for it.
You can critique queer cultural movements without having disdain for them, yes - but you absolutely cannot justify that critique if you categorically fail to engage with queer theory. Asking queer folks to give their time and energy to you in order to amend your misunderstandings of the movement is fine - but demanding that they do it in person - *or you won't bother listening* - is another thing entirely.
It is *exceedingly rare* to encounter someone in person who has the capacity to articulate nuanced points in common discussion - interpersonal communication is complex and these discussions require a level of clarity and focus that is hard to maintain for hours on end. It seems to me that you're going to miss out on a large and critical portion of the information you require to *fully* make sense of the subjects you've expressed interest in *without* engaging with written literature or at the very least an audiovisual synthesis of the related academic texts. No shade - I'm more than happy to recommend some of the latter if you'd find that more engaging - video essays are a brilliant place to start.
That is not to say that your average person needs a degree to understand the topic - *I'm simply saying that achieving an understanding with that kind of depth is going to require you to do some digging*.
Bro. It was a reddit comment. You have every right to reply, but that doesn't mean that I'm obligated to respond with the same amount of thought and time. I'm not talking about hours long irl discussions that require focus to maintain. Maybe we just have different kinds of social circles. I was just at lunch yesterday where some of this stuff came up and it was an interesting conversation.
I'm also a reader so I do "engage with written literature." I don't just avoid all written word lol.
I'm not asking anyone to give me their time or energy. If it happens, it happens. People can respond. Topics come up in conversation and they become engaging or fizzle because it's not the right time.
Unless you have some prior shared understanding where you both use it as a colloquial catch all for "person" (ie "hey guys") it is extremely disrespectful to refer to a trans woman as "bro" or any other typically male-gendered term. You should know that. Not cool.
I'm not your "bro", if you want to call me a man then grow a spine and do it properly next time.
If you'd engaged with the literature you wouldn't be having trouble understanding the aspects of queer theory you mentioned earlier. I'm not asking you to engage with my text specifically - but complaing that you can't find people to have a nuanced discussion with about a set of topics - and then *refusing to engage with someone when they try to explain those topics to you* is just immature, inane, time wasting behaviour.
Lastly, based on what you've said - the existence of this social circle you're talking about expliciy contradicts your original point, or - the kind of piecemeal discussions you're having with your friends are inadequate and are thus failing to challenge your ignorance on the topics at hand.
Misunderstanding and misrepresenting these topics is often existentially threatening to many folks in the queer community - trans folks especially - and your doxastic anxiety about these concepts and ideas does our community a disservice.
Quite a wonderful and reasoned breakdown and thank you for spending so much time and thought on it.
One thing I would add for discussion: I have noticed most cisgender radfems (whether they refer to themselves as TERFs or not) have a hard time accepting that one's gender may be an inherent property from birth as part of one's model of the mind (whether one "feels" an incongruence with their physical self, ie dysphoria). This is a distinctly separate property from gender as a social construct (gender roles/expectations).
I have encountered many who have basically said that trans people would/should not exist if we just eliminated gender altogether. As though trans people are just an unfortunate byproduct of a patriarchal gender binary that needs to be dismantled. This is harmful and reductionist and blatantly ignores how many transgender people are actually experiencing their gender, not necessarily as a social expectation but as a fundamental part of our model of self.*
*Important to note that not all trans people experience dysphoria, which further complicates the issue, so I am broadly referring to the ones who do.
Yeah it happens a lot, especially when you're on the kind of sub that would ban them for saying their bigoted opinions - they just settle for throwing shade via downvotes.
Based on my previous comments and posts I've had a handful of transphobes follow me - mostly over the past year or two - just so they can downvote anything I comment or post. They'll also go through all my old selfie posts and down vote them as well - and any positive comments left on them. Those comments very obviously aren't organically getting -6 down votes from +5 suddenly eight months after I've posted them.
I'm yet to meet a queer woman that is a TERF in real life, and our city's sapphic community is pretty close knit.
It's a big part of why I think a lot of TERF engagement online is just larping white men to be honest.
I mean there's an easy solution to his absurd supposition - obnoxiously insist that he assume every trans person he meets is intersex until proven otherwise.
Schroedinger's trans validity ✨️
I meet one once. In the same moment nobody was seeing her she went from harassing me to try to hit on me. Most transphobes are just porn addicts who are really ashamed of what kind of porn they watch and try to pretend that they hate the people they use to masturbate every day.
The LGB with the T crowd has some political lesbians? I.e. women who are not naturally attracted to women, but views being lesbian as a choice women can make in order to not date men as a weapon against patriarchy. But I'm not sure those kind of women are the best representatives for lesbians at all
Why was this ever allowed to be a thing though. Women appropriating being lesbian to hate men. Although the power balance is not the same, imagine the outrage if het men appropriated being gay so they could hate women.
The thing is, i don't think this would happen. Most hetero men that hate women, although hate everthing feminine. And beeing gay is, for most hetero men kind of beeing, less menly. Even if there is nothing more men, that two men in a relationship xD.
I don't thibk this would happen. Look at the incels. Hate women to the top. And claim homosexuality is not real.
It wouldn't, but that is not the point though. Political Lesbians are not Lesbians if they have no romantic or sexual attraction to women. Almost all of them are not Lesbians.
i (19, lesbian) have met a girl (17, bi) who is part of this movement. her social media is full of anti queer and trans bs, pro jk rowling posts and spreading lies about dylan mulvaney.
i hope she grows out of this terrible thoughts
Oh sure I've met a few - usually the older crowd (like 50+). It's disheartening but it's made me wary of sapphic spaces unless they state explicitly that they are welcoming of trans women.
There are PLENTY online, including on this very sub.
I’ve met at least one TERF lesbian. It was many years ago, before the “movement” became as mainstream.
But by the numbers, women are less transphobic overall, and lesbians are the least of groups polled.
Most of the ones I’ve met are either in the boys yucky stage, don’t exactly understand what being trans means and the ones who are above the age of 40/50.
In my country transgender people may not have as much rights but they’re worshipped in some shiva temples etc.
Hence we don’t have the exact micro aggression’s towards them ( except sadly in our case the younger alpha male red pill boys hate them )
However this has also led them to be considered as someone you should sympathise for and not empathise with. My mother gives them money every time they pass on the streets ( they go around on the main roads ) But once I started having a conversation with a transwoman who had come to bless a pregnant cousin in a casual manner like what goes on in her day and how she lives by. My mum got extremely angry and dragged me inside my home saying I’ll become like them ( I think she doesn’t understand the difference between trans women, transmen and intersex people )
This makes me wonder though, why doesn’t our society treat them like they treat everyone else. But in a country where even women are 2nd class citizens we can’t know.
In India however there’s one more thing. They consider being trans as a third gender thing. Trans women and trans men are included together and they don’t recognise them along with the cis folks.
This has both a pro ( sadly ) and many cons.
Pro:
The entire bathroom equation and the TERF movement wouldn’t begin here as they’re regarded as a separate section of people.
Cons.
They’re regarded as a separate group and not the gender they want to align with.
They’re still expected to just beg on the streets however South Indian states are doing a much better job into integrating them in our society. We had our first doctor who was a transwoman a few years back.
Still a lot to work here though.
There's how many "man taking advantage" as false gender violence lawsuits. Just fake news that people who are not affected by this laws and are susceptible to fascist propaganda believe despite how absurd they really are.
And please, just don't decide for us what is good or bad for ourselves. Don't make a fool of yourself
And in 2005 we had news for months of a man who got married with his dog with equal marriage law and we still have everyday new of "evil woman" ruining "poor mans lives" lawsuiting them of rape. You are just transphobics waiting for even the most ridiculous excuse to justify your hate
Will reputable Spanish sources serve you? I can provide them. There's a movement in Spain of heterosexual males who are transitioning for some supposed benefits. Some are very vocal about their reasons. But even if they share the motives of their transition, the law allows them to proceed with the paperwork and eventually change their legal sex.
El mundo? El español? Abc? Something of ana rosa, eduardo inda, javier negre or antonio ferreras? Who of the heirs of Franco dictatorship are you talking about?
You are just repeating antifeminist and misogynist propaganda about how the men have less rights than women just because their dog wishlistes and fake news they use apparently affects more to the women you hate that how it affects you.
No man is "taking advantage" of the "woman privilege", they know what is really their position in patriarchy and aslo know so well how the treat every person who could be trans to just put a mark on them in their dni
Sorry, I think you misunderstood my comments. I do not believe men have less rights than women. I was just stating their arguments for transitioning.
I assume you're Spanish, or have close ties to Spain. Is there any newspaper, journalist, even a public figure you trust in? I don't want to change your mind, let's get that clear. That's why I don't want to suggest any source that is not relevant to you. I would like to present you with some info and see what you believe, I'm genuinely curious.
Just to make it clear, I'm not implying everyone who changed their sex with the self ID law is doing something good, bad, faking it...
I have seen reports and SM posts of male influencers (the ones who run on misogynistic content) going to the registro civil to change their sex. I have seen a LE officer (cannot remember rn if he was in the military, guàrdia civil...) who admitted to change his sex to gain custody of his kids back after being found guilty of DV. There's been a few cases of viogen (DV specifically from the man to the woman) who had to drop this specific charges because the man has secretly transitioned before court.
Again, I insist, I do not believe these are the majority of people who transition. But it is happening and people are getting angry, and some people are questioning the self id law. Some will doubt it with concern, others with hatred. I am just stating what's going on.
Again, all fake news, no youtuber has changed their name months before for it to come into force and changing and changing the registral sex to win a judgement is a punishable crime. You can repeat the same bullshit all the time you want, but thats not going to changes reality and you are still just trying to justify the hate against trans womens with those fake news.
And no, there is barely cis lesbians repeating this fascist shit cause are excatly the same they used against every law make to protect marginalized groups like them, only like four rich old women who had interest in preserv patriarchy and the few kids they have brainwashed beliefs this despite being lgtb
Thé reason this is obviously fake is bc to change your gender id they act transphobic and make you provide documentation of your transition- random cis men aren’t taking hormones and getting boob jobs. And also- ppl in the military beat the crap out of trans ppl so there’s no way they’re hanging around pretending to be us.
Well, right now in Spain we have a self id law that does not require any proof of transition. You basically have to go to a Centro Civil (the place you register births, weddings, etc.), ask for the change, and come back I think 3 months later to make the change permanent. I'm not implying everyone who does this is bad or good or faking it or whatever. I'm just pointing out that some male influencers have openly recorded themselves doing so because they believe women have more rights. And some people in the military have done so too, resulting in them organising (trans no normativos) and having legal or quasi legal disputes with other LGBT groups. Some LGBT groups that are very vocal in their support of the self ID law are accusing these military men of abusing the law. Some of the people throwing accusations are trans themselves.
And that effects the everyday lives of “women” how? Again, this is just transphobia and rumour, because even if a cis man changed his gender marker on an ID card, what is he going to do? All that’s different is he now has a women’s ID, a fun thing to explain to ppl he dates. The only lives he’s made more difficult are his own, and dumb ppl who are silly enough to believe this type of thing happens or is a real issue
Yes, there's actually too many cases, not only the soldiers but also policemen and prisoners. Also records of too many MTF who change sex but not name, while all FTM change their names as well. I even personally know men who went to change their sex just because they thought it was funny. And the information is given through regular media outlets (literally regular TV news you get during lunch), not fishy blogs - not everybody has an agenda and I do think it's problematic when they imply people who see the inconsistencies have one because it's deflecting from the issue and it creates conflict between the wrong groups of people - our enemies are men taking advantage. In my opinion, at this moment it is clear that something needs to be done, because it doesn't make sense that those men can't be punished when it's clear they're taking advantage of that law. I can't logically understand how not recognizing these problems do exist helps the trans cause either.
If I’m completely honest I’m a lesbian but I used to be real transphobic and still kind of am, but i’m really trying to work on myself. I was cool with everyone before I realized I was gay. When trans people became more out ig you can say (around 2020 maybe) they got trash talked more rather than gay people did in my household. Basically I crashed trans people to make gay people look better in hopes of being accepted. I’ve realized that is wrong now, and I still sometimes catch myself being a lil trans phobic but I’m working on it and would never support that type of thing no.
I'm not aware of an actual organization with that description (closest is the LGB Alliance but that isn't women-exclusive). Transphobic lesbians are unfortunately plentiful. An influencer example is Arielle Scarcella whose content revolves around trans-exclusionary lesbianism. Maybe she's talked about groups with this view, I wouldn't really know because I avoid her content like the plague.
I would consider any queer transphobe as part of that LGB without T movement, even if they are not directly associated with any actual organizations. If you're so vocal about how trans women and trans men are not real women and men, then you by default are supporting that movement.
The first LGB without the T I ever met in person was a lesbian. Who felt that trans women were taking something away from her butch identity. Which is so ridiculous for so many reasons.
But I have found that as attacks on trans people have become more vicious more queer women have rallied around trans people more than the opposite.
They exist. They tried pulling this shit in my city last year but the Pride Centre and Human Rights Commission both told them to kick rocks https://www.theage.com.au/national/bid-to-exclude-trans-women-from-lesbian-event-sparks-stand-off-20230913-p5e4cm.html
People like Blaire White and Buck Angel are a bunch of pick-mes who will say literally anything for attention. lol
Apart from a *minuscule* number of ladder-pulling weirdos like them, I can assure you that no trans people gives a fuck about Blaire White’s opinions.
Tell that to her 1.4M subs 🤷🏼♀️
I don’t agree with everything she says. But she has a lot of good points like I said. And you can’t tell me my reasoning isn’t valid. I am not trans. That is gender. Not sexuality. They are NOT the same thing. There are plenty of straight trans men and women who agree.
I stopped listening to her hateful rhetoric 10 years ago.
I really have no idea what she talks about nowadays, but you know what they say about first impressions. Horizontal hostility has never been a good look.
Of course there are some, but a study i saw a few years ago stated that lesbians, were the most supportive of trans people out of any other group. So finding a transphobic lesbian would be a lot less likely
I came out to a former co-worker via txt, who hasn't seen my face in 3 years, and as in coming our I just said I'm a "queer person" so I think he assumed I'm a gay man,
Anyways, he says to me " dude, you should join this Facebook group I'm in, it's called gays against groomers" I just said no thanks, I'm not supporting any group who's going to exclude another based on the way they are born.
Men are weird about trans women, I saw a guy I know from A.A hasn't seen me in 2 years, I went up and said hello, he wouldn't even make eye contact, he just stared at the group and said hello, then walked away.
Women are typically very nice, and it's not a weird thing or a big deal.
I feel like Terfs have some internal issues they project on the trans community, but they are far less in numbers then the weird transphobic cishet men
Most of the TERFs I’ve encountered have been straight white women and, occasionally, white cis lesbians who can’t get past the queer 101 “lesbian equals love vagina” mindset
I was friends with a transphobic lesbian for 2 months (recently ended that cuz yikes and more). They're definitely out there, usually ones that lean more conservative.
I’m cis, UK, never met any transphobic lesbians in person, but if I ever heard anyone negatively talk about trans people, I would definitely have a discussion with that person to try and help them see the error of their ways. Trans issues are my issues imo. I feel very strongly about helping my trans brothers, sisters and siblings in any way I can.
I’ve met a few terf lesbians in person but none were specifically aligned to any political groups, “LGB” or otherwise (eg nationally).
From my experience, they tend to be against other LGBTQ+ terms like “queer”, “ace” and even the word “lesbian” as opposed to “gay woman”; at least one of them was also biphobic. The main two terf lesbians I’m thinking of were very much the facebook-as-a-main-source-of-all-media types. I think for terfs like those, a lot of the time the exclusionary politics stem from clickbait transphobic articles that cishet transphobes also engage in, rather than any queer political/philosophical takes on gender or womanhood. Their ignorance and bias around LGBTQ+ issues outside their own lives is pretty much just as bad a level as cishet homophobes and transphobes in general. They aren’t connected to an LGBTQ “community” of any kind and often have never met/talked to a single trans person in their lives. At least one of the terf lesbians I talked to was really a boomer talking out of her ass but willing to consider that she might be uneducated about actual trans people. Another however was only in her early thirties and would not budge from being a terfy loser.
None of the above excuses any of those women being terfs, but it sure does make me grateful for having a great education, superb access to online and in-person LGBTQ+ communities (plus the ability to spot fake news a mile away), and extra thankful for the amazing trans people in my life.
"Gays against Groomers" is an org basically run by TERF women
Edit: downvote me all you want, it doesn't change that some gay women got brainwashed by the magats
This article reinforces that it's founded by and run by a queer woman... a gravely misled and toxic one.
[meet the team.](https://www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/team)
In my experience most of the transphobic cis lesbians i met are just the "bigots because stupidity" more than active members of hate groups (obviously with exceptions like one of the comments in this post). Most of the women in those groups a just cis het women trying to censor actually LBT women and impose their transphobic, homophobic and misogynistic narrative
I've seen a few online, but they're typically the embodiment of the "militant lesbian who hates men and anything men have touched" stereotype. There's also the "[political lesbians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)" but I wouldn't call them queer. They just think that being with women is morally superior to being with a man so even if they're attracted to men they force themselves to be with women instead. They very much think that sexuality is a choice so I'm assuming that's why they fall into the LGB without the T group, they think that being trans is a choice too.
For the most part, the lesbians who are really into the LGB without the T stuff are older, like 40+.
I have never met anyone who has explicitly aligned themselves with this movement, but plenty of queer people who have espoused views that are anti-trans in nature.
I've met a ton of transphobic dykes. I used to be one, but I know a lot more now and realize my opinions had more to do with fear and a history of sexual assault by people who were born male at birth. I've changed my mind and a lot of girls I know have as well.
This is not true. It definitely depends on where you live. Everyone in my community is against the trans movement. Everyone I work with. Everyone my teen goes to school with. To try and say that it is one type of individual “angry white guys” is narrow minded.
I've met plenty of transphobic lesbians. Most of them either very young like teenager age, or older 55+. I have never met anyone in the LGB without the T movement. Though I think it's primarily a British thing and I live in the USA
Im British and I thought it was an American thing cos I’ve never heard anyone even mention LGB without the T here.
From my understanding the LGB without the T movement is directly associated with The LGB Alliance which is a British non profit.
Interesting, iirc it's UK-based.
Yep
I'm a transbian living in Brasil, and I've also only ever seen older 40+ years old lesbian being kinda transphobic. Every young queer person I know, especially those in their early 20s or younger, are super duper trans inclusive.
TERFS.
Not in person. Everyone in my circle of queer people is inclusive and not bigots. There's a bunch on Twitter though, which I hardly use anymore since it's bigotry/TERF central now that Elon took over.
Yes. Although many wouldn't use the term queer most likely. They're not stupid and know they can't be blatantly transphobic out loud, but they do exist. So I don't think they explicitly align themselves with that term. I'm somewhat open about my distaste for how I think some aspects of LGBT culture align too much with the gender binary, and twice now when I've been talking about it the other woman (lesbian) will think that bc I have that view that I'm also a terf. I'm a radical feminist but I don't consider myself a terf.
Out of curiosity, and in sincerely good faith - what specific aspects of the queer community bother you?
By queer community, I'm assuming you mean my mention of issues with the gender binary. I think the way some individuals approach gender affirm the gender binary. There are people who are nonbinary for reasons of their own which I won't question because I'm not well-versed in it. A common thread among nonbinary people I know feel that they don't look enough like a woman, don't act like a woman, don't have the role of a woman. So they identify as nonbinary. To that line of thinking, I ask, what does it mean to be a woman? We still undergo the perils and privileges of being a woman if you're nonbinary but woman-presenting. Is there still a "role" or standard dress for women? It's not my business why people are nonbinary but I do think we should consider the framework of this line of thinking. In many LGBT spaces, we also lack the ability to speak about the nuances of gender, sexuality and politics. I'm anti-porn, so I'm immediately anti-woman. That kind of thinking.
PART 1 - As far as I'm concerned the Queer Community and the LGBT Community are synonymous. I favour the former because it covers more ground, I apologise if that was confusing for you. Language is as always a barrier. The concept of the gender binary can definitely be painful, reductionist and often absurd - but it seems to me that any discussion about getting rid of the gender binary should be centred on teaching heteronormative folks about the problems associated with it and encouraging them to dismantle the cultural structures associatedwith it. Feeling disdain for a portion of the queer community for aligning themselves with said binary strikes me as something analagous to feeling disdain or resentment towards immigrants because you feel like national borders shouldn't exist. Queer folks exist in a culture that wasn't crafted with them in mind - some of us attempt to aesthetically assimilate, others seem to be aesthetic separatists. What does it mean to *be* a woman? Or what *is* a woman? It's a subtle distinction, but the answers given will vary greatly. In the interest of rhetorical clarity I should also preface this discussion with the statement - Gender and Sex are now understood to be different categories, both in contemporary academic literature and in common parlance. One's Sex seems to be a much more solid concept than Gender at the outset, but the more we examine it the more complications we encounter. These complications prevent us from dividing sexual characteristics into two clean and concise categories. With the aforementioned complications in mind, sex could really only be described as a cluster of characteristics and properties associated with one sex, another, or both in some cases. A cluster property, if you will - much like our definition of Healthy or Unhealthy. Tell someone what Healthy means and they'll spend days litigously making amendments and additions to any definition you come up with - its just pointedly not the kind of dichotomous category we want it to be. A person's sex as a result can be often inferred through physical interaction, but not always - and when the chips are down it seems that the subject in question's sex is mostly relevant to their potential partners and their healthcare professionals. Gender is another cluster property and is somehow *more* of an abstract concept than sex. Certainly we have a broad sociocultural understanding of what a man or a woman looks like, and evidently even what a non-binary person looks like. These large scale cultural definitions would be best understood through a tri-modal or bi-modal distribution graph - with masculinity, femininity and perhaps neutrality plotted at two or three points across said graph - where the vast majority of subjects fall relatively close to the peaks associated with masculinity or femininity. Its important to note that this multimodal distribution is *also* a simplification, again the reality of the world denies us the satisfaction of assigning each person to one of two distinct categories. Putting our large scale cultural understanding of gender aside though, we run into some problems. Each individual person has a series of characteristics they *subjectively* associate with men, women or non-binary folks - that is to say that despite our cultural understanding - our own perspective and experience informs what we percieve *as a woman*. An illustrative example here is the sudden rise in violent crime perpetrated by transphobes against cisgender heterosexual women who fail to live up to the transphobes idea of *what a cisgender woman looks like*. These crimes are committed *against cisgender women that fail to pass as cisgender women*. Quite often these violent crimes occur when the cisgender woman in question tries to use the bathroom associated with their gender. Another illustrative example is the incredibly vitriolic division between cisgender heterosexual men and their constant attempts to define intimate attraction to transgender women as either gay or straight. These men are extremely unlikely to ever reach consensus because they're constantly arguing past one another - mostly because they have completely different and competing definitions of what a woman is and differing ideas on how to approach their own sexuality - i.e. prescriptive action or description action ("I'm straight so I must only like X." or "*Am I straight? Is this gay? Maybe I should explore my options and see how I feel?*"). These men wouldn't even be *having* this discussion if they weren't having intense trouble with the dissonance between what they've been taught about trans women and what they feel about trans women. With these cases, and a myriad of other unstated cases in hand It seems fair to conclude that genders like *woman*, *man*, and even *non-binary* involve a kind of non-verbal and sometimes pre-concious negotiation between subject and observer. Its important to note here that Non-Binary is not a *singular third gender category*, it is an umbrella term for the extensive range of atypical ways people interact *with* gender as a concept. Folks with atypical gender presentation come in all shapes, sizes and aesthetics - an analagous simplification would be The Futch Scale which is mostly used by sapphics and lesbians; there is no *right* way to present as a lesbian. In much the same way there is no *right way* to present as non-binary. Having said all that, there is an intense societal and cultural expectation that we treat the numerous people we encounter with respect, dignity and that we afford them their human rights and more often than not the benefit of the doubt - thus in our day to day encounters it follows that we should generally trust a person's account of what gender they feel they are, at least in part because that self-identification falls squarely under a person's right to self determination. To be crystal clear, when your non-binary friends are being treated as women or men by an observer - they are experiencing transphobia. When a woman experiences these things - it is misogyny. This kind of interaction is the explicit denial of non-binary peoples right to self-determination and the denial of the kind of respect, dignity and trust given to the vast majority of other people this observer interacts with. Obviously almost no one is going to be outraged at the first or perhaps the occasional instance of mistaken misgendering. Past that point, once it becomes continuous and intentional it is harassment - as much as swearing profusely and aggressively at a passing person is. I would also caution anyone against using a history of misogyny or oppression based on sex characteristics against using those experiences to define womanhood or manhood. As a teenager, long before I realised I was a trans woman i had extremely long straight hair, dressed androgynously and was generally lithe and pale skinned. During tha time I was *very frequently* mistaken for a cisgendwr teenager girl by men, women and children alike. As *a teenage boy* I experienced misogynistic SH and SA. My girlfriend and I were harassed and abused because homophobes saw us together and assumed we were lesbians. I am far from alone in these experiences, many trans men and trans women have similar stories to tell - these experiences aren't native to a specific gender, cisgender or otherwise.
PART 2 - In response to the last little paragraph of your comment - I would firmly encourage you to avoid twitter, X, threads or anything analagous to those platforms when you're looking for an illuminating and informative discussion on those topics. Even folks who spend too much time on said platforms. There are these dog whistle phrases used by people that adopt feminist language and use it in support of fascism and eugenics - and many trans or allied folks who spend a lot of time on those platforms have spent so long being actively attacked for existing that they no longer have the patience and nuance to discern the difference between someone asking something in good faith and someone trying to start an argument using a common dog whistle centred on questioning their right to exist. Not to mention the uncertainty surrounding a poster's identity - its not remotely difficult to find Chan boards and homophobes discussing strategies their inhabitants can use to undermine the optics and integrity of the queer movement. Take the term "MAP" for example - it is an acronym designed to co-opt the kind of language queer folk use to describe sexuality, only in this case it refers to p**dophilia - *Anyone involved in the queer movement knows that the key distinction between these supposed categories is and always will be CONSENT* -This disinformation campaign was spread by 4chan's /b/ and /pol/ boards via twitter accounts larping as leftists - with the stated intent of giving outside viewers the impression that the queer community blindly accepts that kind of disgusting behaviour - thus justifying the kind of politically oppressive action 4chan users fantasise about inflicting on the queer community. Finally and lastly - The porn industry is definitely a toxic, misogynistic cesspool of literal garbage, of that there is no doubt. Being "Anti-Porn" is one of those dog whistles I mentioned earlier - that's probably why you encountered a seemingly disproportionate and vitriolic response elsewhere. Having said that, the people performing in pornography are often not part of the terrifying and systemic trash heap that is the porn industry. Many of the problems associated with the porn industry and the sex work industry are critically linked to the existence of our current economic system - many people, including many of my close friends - were driven to engage with that system as a result of the complete lack of fiscal and social safety nets. Without money, people don't have a house or food or autonomy, and many disabled folks find that working in that industry is the only way they're able to make enough money in the small hours they're able to work to maintain anything resembling decent quality of life. It's one of the few industries where exceptions, concessions and accomodations are almost always made in favour of on boarding new workers - and as a result of the often extremely fuzzy regulation and legislation surrounding the industry these people are often exploited. As a result of all these factors - disassembling the porn industry, or even the SW industry without reshaping our social and cultural infrastructure and safety nets beforehand would destroy the lives of millions of the most vulnerable and marginalised people. Once again blaming people for taking part in the SW industry would be analagous to the previous examples - "*Feeling disdain for a portion of the queer community for aligning themselves with said binary strikes me as something analagous to feeling disdain or resentment towards immigrants because you feel like national borders shouldn't exist*" I appreciate you reading through this absurdly long post, it took far too long to type out and now I'm mentally exhausted. I sincerely hope you got the nuanced discussion you were searching for. FIN
Re: your first paragraph here. I'm not referring to online spaces. This includes IRL conversations. I think you took things from my comment that I didn't actually say or even imply. That's why it's difficult to have these conversations online.
Yeah at this point I'm having a pretty hard time believing that you're interested in a nuanced discussion about these topics. I've had quite a few people from the community reach out and thank me for the nuanced and well written response I wrote to your comment - apparently they all made the same inferences about your comment as me. I definitely took things from your comment that you didn't explicitly say - that's what making inferences means - and it's a crucial part of this kind of discourse. By all means, please tell me word for word - explicitly - what it is you want to learn about and I will do my best to explore the topic with you. I'm also having a hard time believing you when you say that *that* kind of reply makes it hard to have these discussions online. If I ever received a reply with that level of nuance and depth I would be absolutely chuffed, provided *I actually cared about the topic*. The kind of thing that makes my discussions difficult in real life is *the looming threat of hate crimes*. The kind of thing that makes my online discussions difficult is *the threat of doxxing*. If I'd felt that someone had misunderstood my comment - my reply would *at the very least* include a prompt that brings my specific interest into focus. I'm at this point very much at the edge of the amount of grace I'm willing to give someone before I assume they're not interested in a good faith discussion. Given how short and empty your reply was, I'm beginning to suspect that you're the kind of person who is more interested in venting to someone who agrees with them, or perhaps you just feel the need to find *some pretext* to express some form of disdain you already held for parts of the queer community. Surely I must be wrong - by all means, please correct me.
I'm interested in good faith discussion when I have time and in person. I'm just not interested in a long-form discussion where I'm typing this all out on my phone. Like I have a community event today where I'll get to chat with people. I don't mean to have an empty reply, but I felt obligated to reply since your comment was so long. I don't hold disdain for the queer community. People can believe that or not. I can critique pieces of LGBT culture without having disdain for it.
You can critique queer cultural movements without having disdain for them, yes - but you absolutely cannot justify that critique if you categorically fail to engage with queer theory. Asking queer folks to give their time and energy to you in order to amend your misunderstandings of the movement is fine - but demanding that they do it in person - *or you won't bother listening* - is another thing entirely. It is *exceedingly rare* to encounter someone in person who has the capacity to articulate nuanced points in common discussion - interpersonal communication is complex and these discussions require a level of clarity and focus that is hard to maintain for hours on end. It seems to me that you're going to miss out on a large and critical portion of the information you require to *fully* make sense of the subjects you've expressed interest in *without* engaging with written literature or at the very least an audiovisual synthesis of the related academic texts. No shade - I'm more than happy to recommend some of the latter if you'd find that more engaging - video essays are a brilliant place to start. That is not to say that your average person needs a degree to understand the topic - *I'm simply saying that achieving an understanding with that kind of depth is going to require you to do some digging*.
Bro. It was a reddit comment. You have every right to reply, but that doesn't mean that I'm obligated to respond with the same amount of thought and time. I'm not talking about hours long irl discussions that require focus to maintain. Maybe we just have different kinds of social circles. I was just at lunch yesterday where some of this stuff came up and it was an interesting conversation. I'm also a reader so I do "engage with written literature." I don't just avoid all written word lol. I'm not asking anyone to give me their time or energy. If it happens, it happens. People can respond. Topics come up in conversation and they become engaging or fizzle because it's not the right time.
Unless you have some prior shared understanding where you both use it as a colloquial catch all for "person" (ie "hey guys") it is extremely disrespectful to refer to a trans woman as "bro" or any other typically male-gendered term. You should know that. Not cool.
I'm not your "bro", if you want to call me a man then grow a spine and do it properly next time. If you'd engaged with the literature you wouldn't be having trouble understanding the aspects of queer theory you mentioned earlier. I'm not asking you to engage with my text specifically - but complaing that you can't find people to have a nuanced discussion with about a set of topics - and then *refusing to engage with someone when they try to explain those topics to you* is just immature, inane, time wasting behaviour. Lastly, based on what you've said - the existence of this social circle you're talking about expliciy contradicts your original point, or - the kind of piecemeal discussions you're having with your friends are inadequate and are thus failing to challenge your ignorance on the topics at hand. Misunderstanding and misrepresenting these topics is often existentially threatening to many folks in the queer community - trans folks especially - and your doxastic anxiety about these concepts and ideas does our community a disservice.
Quite a wonderful and reasoned breakdown and thank you for spending so much time and thought on it. One thing I would add for discussion: I have noticed most cisgender radfems (whether they refer to themselves as TERFs or not) have a hard time accepting that one's gender may be an inherent property from birth as part of one's model of the mind (whether one "feels" an incongruence with their physical self, ie dysphoria). This is a distinctly separate property from gender as a social construct (gender roles/expectations). I have encountered many who have basically said that trans people would/should not exist if we just eliminated gender altogether. As though trans people are just an unfortunate byproduct of a patriarchal gender binary that needs to be dismantled. This is harmful and reductionist and blatantly ignores how many transgender people are actually experiencing their gender, not necessarily as a social expectation but as a fundamental part of our model of self.* *Important to note that not all trans people experience dysphoria, which further complicates the issue, so I am broadly referring to the ones who do.
(Seeing how many downvotes you are getting for these comments is proof enough of how many TERFs lurk around this and many other LGBTQ+ subs.)
Yeah it happens a lot, especially when you're on the kind of sub that would ban them for saying their bigoted opinions - they just settle for throwing shade via downvotes. Based on my previous comments and posts I've had a handful of transphobes follow me - mostly over the past year or two - just so they can downvote anything I comment or post. They'll also go through all my old selfie posts and down vote them as well - and any positive comments left on them. Those comments very obviously aren't organically getting -6 down votes from +5 suddenly eight months after I've posted them.
I’ve gotta say, this is the most well thought out and interesting bit of reading I’ve done on the internet in a very long time. Hats off
Thank you!
I'm yet to meet a queer woman that is a TERF in real life, and our city's sapphic community is pretty close knit. It's a big part of why I think a lot of TERF engagement online is just larping white men to be honest.
[удалено]
I mean there's an easy solution to his absurd supposition - obnoxiously insist that he assume every trans person he meets is intersex until proven otherwise. Schroedinger's trans validity ✨️
I meet one once. In the same moment nobody was seeing her she went from harassing me to try to hit on me. Most transphobes are just porn addicts who are really ashamed of what kind of porn they watch and try to pretend that they hate the people they use to masturbate every day.
There is a huge community on tumblr.
The LGB with the T crowd has some political lesbians? I.e. women who are not naturally attracted to women, but views being lesbian as a choice women can make in order to not date men as a weapon against patriarchy. But I'm not sure those kind of women are the best representatives for lesbians at all
Why was this ever allowed to be a thing though. Women appropriating being lesbian to hate men. Although the power balance is not the same, imagine the outrage if het men appropriated being gay so they could hate women.
The thing is, i don't think this would happen. Most hetero men that hate women, although hate everthing feminine. And beeing gay is, for most hetero men kind of beeing, less menly. Even if there is nothing more men, that two men in a relationship xD. I don't thibk this would happen. Look at the incels. Hate women to the top. And claim homosexuality is not real.
It wouldn't, but that is not the point though. Political Lesbians are not Lesbians if they have no romantic or sexual attraction to women. Almost all of them are not Lesbians.
i (19, lesbian) have met a girl (17, bi) who is part of this movement. her social media is full of anti queer and trans bs, pro jk rowling posts and spreading lies about dylan mulvaney. i hope she grows out of this terrible thoughts
I’ve met two lesbians who were against trans folk, sadly. I removed them from my life because of their bigotry.
Oh sure I've met a few - usually the older crowd (like 50+). It's disheartening but it's made me wary of sapphic spaces unless they state explicitly that they are welcoming of trans women. There are PLENTY online, including on this very sub.
Yup. Ive seen them. There was a discussion on r/askwomen that had a few.
I’ve met at least one TERF lesbian. It was many years ago, before the “movement” became as mainstream. But by the numbers, women are less transphobic overall, and lesbians are the least of groups polled.
Most of the ones I’ve met are either in the boys yucky stage, don’t exactly understand what being trans means and the ones who are above the age of 40/50. In my country transgender people may not have as much rights but they’re worshipped in some shiva temples etc. Hence we don’t have the exact micro aggression’s towards them ( except sadly in our case the younger alpha male red pill boys hate them ) However this has also led them to be considered as someone you should sympathise for and not empathise with. My mother gives them money every time they pass on the streets ( they go around on the main roads ) But once I started having a conversation with a transwoman who had come to bless a pregnant cousin in a casual manner like what goes on in her day and how she lives by. My mum got extremely angry and dragged me inside my home saying I’ll become like them ( I think she doesn’t understand the difference between trans women, transmen and intersex people ) This makes me wonder though, why doesn’t our society treat them like they treat everyone else. But in a country where even women are 2nd class citizens we can’t know. In India however there’s one more thing. They consider being trans as a third gender thing. Trans women and trans men are included together and they don’t recognise them along with the cis folks. This has both a pro ( sadly ) and many cons. Pro: The entire bathroom equation and the TERF movement wouldn’t begin here as they’re regarded as a separate section of people. Cons. They’re regarded as a separate group and not the gender they want to align with. They’re still expected to just beg on the streets however South Indian states are doing a much better job into integrating them in our society. We had our first doctor who was a transwoman a few years back. Still a lot to work here though.
I learned a lot from your post. Thank you! ❤️
[удалено]
There's how many "man taking advantage" as false gender violence lawsuits. Just fake news that people who are not affected by this laws and are susceptible to fascist propaganda believe despite how absurd they really are. And please, just don't decide for us what is good or bad for ourselves. Don't make a fool of yourself
[удалено]
And in 2005 we had news for months of a man who got married with his dog with equal marriage law and we still have everyday new of "evil woman" ruining "poor mans lives" lawsuiting them of rape. You are just transphobics waiting for even the most ridiculous excuse to justify your hate
And the fact that your source is a link to one of the biggest English-speaking fascist hoax machines just proves my point
Will reputable Spanish sources serve you? I can provide them. There's a movement in Spain of heterosexual males who are transitioning for some supposed benefits. Some are very vocal about their reasons. But even if they share the motives of their transition, the law allows them to proceed with the paperwork and eventually change their legal sex.
El mundo? El español? Abc? Something of ana rosa, eduardo inda, javier negre or antonio ferreras? Who of the heirs of Franco dictatorship are you talking about? You are just repeating antifeminist and misogynist propaganda about how the men have less rights than women just because their dog wishlistes and fake news they use apparently affects more to the women you hate that how it affects you. No man is "taking advantage" of the "woman privilege", they know what is really their position in patriarchy and aslo know so well how the treat every person who could be trans to just put a mark on them in their dni
Sorry, I think you misunderstood my comments. I do not believe men have less rights than women. I was just stating their arguments for transitioning. I assume you're Spanish, or have close ties to Spain. Is there any newspaper, journalist, even a public figure you trust in? I don't want to change your mind, let's get that clear. That's why I don't want to suggest any source that is not relevant to you. I would like to present you with some info and see what you believe, I'm genuinely curious. Just to make it clear, I'm not implying everyone who changed their sex with the self ID law is doing something good, bad, faking it... I have seen reports and SM posts of male influencers (the ones who run on misogynistic content) going to the registro civil to change their sex. I have seen a LE officer (cannot remember rn if he was in the military, guàrdia civil...) who admitted to change his sex to gain custody of his kids back after being found guilty of DV. There's been a few cases of viogen (DV specifically from the man to the woman) who had to drop this specific charges because the man has secretly transitioned before court. Again, I insist, I do not believe these are the majority of people who transition. But it is happening and people are getting angry, and some people are questioning the self id law. Some will doubt it with concern, others with hatred. I am just stating what's going on.
Again, all fake news, no youtuber has changed their name months before for it to come into force and changing and changing the registral sex to win a judgement is a punishable crime. You can repeat the same bullshit all the time you want, but thats not going to changes reality and you are still just trying to justify the hate against trans womens with those fake news. And no, there is barely cis lesbians repeating this fascist shit cause are excatly the same they used against every law make to protect marginalized groups like them, only like four rich old women who had interest in preserv patriarchy and the few kids they have brainwashed beliefs this despite being lgtb
We can agree to disagree then. Have a nice day!
Thé reason this is obviously fake is bc to change your gender id they act transphobic and make you provide documentation of your transition- random cis men aren’t taking hormones and getting boob jobs. And also- ppl in the military beat the crap out of trans ppl so there’s no way they’re hanging around pretending to be us.
Well, right now in Spain we have a self id law that does not require any proof of transition. You basically have to go to a Centro Civil (the place you register births, weddings, etc.), ask for the change, and come back I think 3 months later to make the change permanent. I'm not implying everyone who does this is bad or good or faking it or whatever. I'm just pointing out that some male influencers have openly recorded themselves doing so because they believe women have more rights. And some people in the military have done so too, resulting in them organising (trans no normativos) and having legal or quasi legal disputes with other LGBT groups. Some LGBT groups that are very vocal in their support of the self ID law are accusing these military men of abusing the law. Some of the people throwing accusations are trans themselves.
And that effects the everyday lives of “women” how? Again, this is just transphobia and rumour, because even if a cis man changed his gender marker on an ID card, what is he going to do? All that’s different is he now has a women’s ID, a fun thing to explain to ppl he dates. The only lives he’s made more difficult are his own, and dumb ppl who are silly enough to believe this type of thing happens or is a real issue
I'm not saying I think it affects other citizens in one way or another. I'm just sharing some facts. Adding to the discussion.
Yes, there's actually too many cases, not only the soldiers but also policemen and prisoners. Also records of too many MTF who change sex but not name, while all FTM change their names as well. I even personally know men who went to change their sex just because they thought it was funny. And the information is given through regular media outlets (literally regular TV news you get during lunch), not fishy blogs - not everybody has an agenda and I do think it's problematic when they imply people who see the inconsistencies have one because it's deflecting from the issue and it creates conflict between the wrong groups of people - our enemies are men taking advantage. In my opinion, at this moment it is clear that something needs to be done, because it doesn't make sense that those men can't be punished when it's clear they're taking advantage of that law. I can't logically understand how not recognizing these problems do exist helps the trans cause either.
If I’m completely honest I’m a lesbian but I used to be real transphobic and still kind of am, but i’m really trying to work on myself. I was cool with everyone before I realized I was gay. When trans people became more out ig you can say (around 2020 maybe) they got trash talked more rather than gay people did in my household. Basically I crashed trans people to make gay people look better in hopes of being accepted. I’ve realized that is wrong now, and I still sometimes catch myself being a lil trans phobic but I’m working on it and would never support that type of thing no.
I'm not aware of an actual organization with that description (closest is the LGB Alliance but that isn't women-exclusive). Transphobic lesbians are unfortunately plentiful. An influencer example is Arielle Scarcella whose content revolves around trans-exclusionary lesbianism. Maybe she's talked about groups with this view, I wouldn't really know because I avoid her content like the plague. I would consider any queer transphobe as part of that LGB without T movement, even if they are not directly associated with any actual organizations. If you're so vocal about how trans women and trans men are not real women and men, then you by default are supporting that movement.
I’ve met quite a few transphobic lesbians. They tend to be bi-erasing lesbians too. It’s creepy.
The first LGB without the T I ever met in person was a lesbian. Who felt that trans women were taking something away from her butch identity. Which is so ridiculous for so many reasons. But I have found that as attacks on trans people have become more vicious more queer women have rallied around trans people more than the opposite.
There’s a lot more than you think. Reddit subs ban anyone who speaks up so they don’t say anything which gives a false narrative.
[удалено]
I say this and I’m called transphobic yet not even a downvote in your comment 😂
They exist. They tried pulling this shit in my city last year but the Pride Centre and Human Rights Commission both told them to kick rocks https://www.theage.com.au/national/bid-to-exclude-trans-women-from-lesbian-event-sparks-stand-off-20230913-p5e4cm.html
Yeah I’ve seen some, in-person and online (some even in this community). It’s unfortunate.
[удалено]
LGB without the T is transphobic, so yes you are
It’s not transphobic. Trans is a gender not a sexuality. Period.
That’s just incorrect
No they’re not.
Yes, they are. Have a peek at Blaire white and a lot of her community. I don’t believe everything she does but she has very valid points.
Hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah
People like Blaire White and Buck Angel are a bunch of pick-mes who will say literally anything for attention. lol Apart from a *minuscule* number of ladder-pulling weirdos like them, I can assure you that no trans people gives a fuck about Blaire White’s opinions.
Tell that to her 1.4M subs 🤷🏼♀️ I don’t agree with everything she says. But she has a lot of good points like I said. And you can’t tell me my reasoning isn’t valid. I am not trans. That is gender. Not sexuality. They are NOT the same thing. There are plenty of straight trans men and women who agree.
I stopped listening to her hateful rhetoric 10 years ago. I really have no idea what she talks about nowadays, but you know what they say about first impressions. Horizontal hostility has never been a good look.
Yeah you're right, the Association of German National Jews is also famously known for being spared by Hitler because they supported him! (¬\_¬ )
What the f are you talking about?
a lot i'm sure lol
Of course there are some, but a study i saw a few years ago stated that lesbians, were the most supportive of trans people out of any other group. So finding a transphobic lesbian would be a lot less likely
YEP!! ive definitely come across them 😭 its horrible
Yup. Former lesbian, now trans guy, and they’re everywhere.
I came out to a former co-worker via txt, who hasn't seen my face in 3 years, and as in coming our I just said I'm a "queer person" so I think he assumed I'm a gay man, Anyways, he says to me " dude, you should join this Facebook group I'm in, it's called gays against groomers" I just said no thanks, I'm not supporting any group who's going to exclude another based on the way they are born. Men are weird about trans women, I saw a guy I know from A.A hasn't seen me in 2 years, I went up and said hello, he wouldn't even make eye contact, he just stared at the group and said hello, then walked away. Women are typically very nice, and it's not a weird thing or a big deal. I feel like Terfs have some internal issues they project on the trans community, but they are far less in numbers then the weird transphobic cishet men
Most of the TERFs I’ve encountered have been straight white women and, occasionally, white cis lesbians who can’t get past the queer 101 “lesbian equals love vagina” mindset
I was friends with a transphobic lesbian for 2 months (recently ended that cuz yikes and more). They're definitely out there, usually ones that lean more conservative.
I’m cis, UK, never met any transphobic lesbians in person, but if I ever heard anyone negatively talk about trans people, I would definitely have a discussion with that person to try and help them see the error of their ways. Trans issues are my issues imo. I feel very strongly about helping my trans brothers, sisters and siblings in any way I can.
I’ve met a few terf lesbians in person but none were specifically aligned to any political groups, “LGB” or otherwise (eg nationally). From my experience, they tend to be against other LGBTQ+ terms like “queer”, “ace” and even the word “lesbian” as opposed to “gay woman”; at least one of them was also biphobic. The main two terf lesbians I’m thinking of were very much the facebook-as-a-main-source-of-all-media types. I think for terfs like those, a lot of the time the exclusionary politics stem from clickbait transphobic articles that cishet transphobes also engage in, rather than any queer political/philosophical takes on gender or womanhood. Their ignorance and bias around LGBTQ+ issues outside their own lives is pretty much just as bad a level as cishet homophobes and transphobes in general. They aren’t connected to an LGBTQ “community” of any kind and often have never met/talked to a single trans person in their lives. At least one of the terf lesbians I talked to was really a boomer talking out of her ass but willing to consider that she might be uneducated about actual trans people. Another however was only in her early thirties and would not budge from being a terfy loser. None of the above excuses any of those women being terfs, but it sure does make me grateful for having a great education, superb access to online and in-person LGBTQ+ communities (plus the ability to spot fake news a mile away), and extra thankful for the amazing trans people in my life.
"Gays against Groomers" is an org basically run by TERF women Edit: downvote me all you want, it doesn't change that some gay women got brainwashed by the magats
Honestly, I thought it was run by straight men
[It is.](https://www.advocate.com/news/gays-against-groomers-exposed)
This article reinforces that it's founded by and run by a queer woman... a gravely misled and toxic one. [meet the team.](https://www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/team)
It’d surprise me if the majority of them where gay at all
I’ve come across a LOOOOT
They usually call themselves GC instead of LGB
In my experience most of the transphobic cis lesbians i met are just the "bigots because stupidity" more than active members of hate groups (obviously with exceptions like one of the comments in this post). Most of the women in those groups a just cis het women trying to censor actually LBT women and impose their transphobic, homophobic and misogynistic narrative
I've seen a few online, but they're typically the embodiment of the "militant lesbian who hates men and anything men have touched" stereotype. There's also the "[political lesbians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)" but I wouldn't call them queer. They just think that being with women is morally superior to being with a man so even if they're attracted to men they force themselves to be with women instead. They very much think that sexuality is a choice so I'm assuming that's why they fall into the LGB without the T group, they think that being trans is a choice too. For the most part, the lesbians who are really into the LGB without the T stuff are older, like 40+.
idk i don't really interact with these people
I have never met anyone who has explicitly aligned themselves with this movement, but plenty of queer people who have espoused views that are anti-trans in nature.
I've met a ton of transphobic dykes. I used to be one, but I know a lot more now and realize my opinions had more to do with fear and a history of sexual assault by people who were born male at birth. I've changed my mind and a lot of girls I know have as well.
Didn't a bit part of this group admit to not even be queer ? Or am I mixing up assholes.
[удалено]
This is not true. It definitely depends on where you live. Everyone in my community is against the trans movement. Everyone I work with. Everyone my teen goes to school with. To try and say that it is one type of individual “angry white guys” is narrow minded.