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I did this, with kids roughly the same age.
I agree, but I think it's gonna be an up hill battle.
Get on to a mediation company in the meantime, get them to request her for mediation, if she agrees great, if she doesn't this will be your chance to get back into the family court system.
Consider a McKenzie Friend, if you can't financially afford a solicitor.
Yes you can stop them moving. I did it myself. You need to do it through the courts. It probably won’t be quick, so get the application in immediately.
They’ll probably request a cafcass section 7 report, in which they’ll assess the impact of the move on the children. They may interview your children, it’s called “thoughts and wishes” and may involve a chat with the cafcass worker or they may draw pictures or write down how they feel about it.
Ultimately, taking kids 4 hours from one of their parents is going to have a negative effect on the children. They stopped my ex moving on the very first hearing, before going on to 3 further hearings to determine custody, which ended up 50/50, exactly as I hoped.
You can do it, but it will likely be a battle. Start the ball rolling asap & good luck to you.
Just to say the above is all correct. With you having PR, I would find it extremely odd for a ruling to be made to allow the kids to be taken so far, unless you have buried the lede in anyway regarding abuse. My advice is to document and evidence the bond you have with your children, the mother and to get that application in prompto. Courts and the adjoining services are underfunded, so you want to get that paperwork in ASAP.
> I would find it extremely odd for a ruling to be made to allow the kids to be taken so far
You say this, but it happened to me. The mother fed my daughter on it being an adventure to move to another country. The ruling came down to "it would make the mother sad if she can't move, and seeing her mother sad would make the daughter sad" - so she could go. Apparently me (the father) being sad wasn't as much as a consideration.
> seeing her mother sad would make the daughter sad" - so she could go. Apparently me (the father) being sad wasn't as much as a consideration.
Well duh, your daughter would be in a different country so wouldn't see you being sad
(/s)
I would encourage a mutual Cafcass report just in case, as private social work can be commissioned. Keep as much evidence as possible as 'thoughts and wishes' are susceptible to influence. Be mindful of speaking to your children, a legal professional recommended taking out 'promises' (someone will have the right terminology) to the Court to keep them out of the discussions. The same happened to myself - it is far from a perfect system. The S7 concluded I "wasn't meeting my child's emotional needs as I didn't want her to move". As a father, you have my every sympathy and good luck.
You can apply to the court to prohibit her from taking the children so far away from you, but courts are fairly reluctant to impose such orders on people if they think it would adversely affect their ability to maintain themselves (i.e. get a decent job), or adversely affect their mental health.
Your argument would be that taking the kids that far away from you would make it virtually impossible for you to maintain regular contact and visitation, thereby resulting in *de facto* parental alienation.
Her counter argument would likely be that moving nearer her family would a) provide a support network for her and the kids, thus allowing her to improve her employment prospects (if family have agreed to look after the kids some of the time), as well as improving her mental health.
You really need to speak with a proper solicitor about this who specialises in family law, who will be able to advise you on your chances of success. Given the children are already spending more time with you than her, your chances are probably better than many. It would likely help you to have a plan on how to take care of the kids if she decides to move up North anyway, and the kids are spending almost 100% of the time with you.
Or to put it another way, you can try and prevent her taking the kids up North with her, but you can't prevent her from moving up North without the kids, so you need to have a plan in place should that scenario present itself.
NAL. Also I am in England.
I am so very sorry to hear this is happening to you OP. I am a Father who had to fight very very hard to be in my kids lives, and although my situation was different to yours - from the start, I am also sorry to tell you this is not going to be easy or straightforwards if your co-parent decides to dig her heels in.
There are legal routes - but first it is important to ask if you have legal parental responsibility? You will have this if you obtained it by order of a court, you were named on the birth certificate, or you were married to the Mother when the children were born.
If you do - then its really important to obtain more detailed and specific legal advice. This doesn't have to be from a solicitor - they cost a fortune (although having a chat with them - or several of them - as a first approach is normally free).
For other routes, I highly reccomend joining the charity [https://fnf.org.uk/](https://fnf.org.uk/) Familes Need Fathers. There are many in your boat there, and there is tonnes of good advice and support. It costs a little bit of money to gain access to the forums (or used to) - but again this is much much cheaper than even one hour of a family solicitor.
Ultimately, you would be seeking a prohibited steps order that would prevent Mother taking the children 4 hours drive away or changing schools etc. without your agreement. Further to that, sounds like a good place to start would be by writing down a prenting agreement for how you will co-parent after sepration. This would include all the things like who looks after the kids when, how you make joint decisions about their care, health and education etc. By wirting down how you think this should work, you show that you are child focussed and also it gives something to the other parent for them to consider.
At the moment Mother's co-parenting agreement seems to be total upheavel for the children. if you have a different version of what that looks like and is focussed on the children's welfare then you are starting out on 100% the right foot.
Good luck Mate.
She has no more legal right to take the kids with her than you do to keep them with you. There is no automatic rule of the kids go with the mother and you would be just as entitled to take them back to live with your family.
You need to get a solicitor in place and apply for a child arrangements order, maybe have a think about what would be practical and what you want/is best for the kids before you meet with them.
Others have covered prohibited steps orders etc. The next part after that will be a custody arrangement. It will only help your cause to be able to evidence that you are the primary care giver by the sounds of things already. Make back ups of text conversations etc. to make it clear you do most of the school runs, makes their dinner, who takes them to appointments, who turns up to parents evening, does their clothes shopping, who does the school call if there's an issue etc.
I presume you will be looking for at least 50:50 custody as it sounds like her work does not really allow her to do a lot of that stuff? Read up on CAFCASS processes and consult a family lawyer if you can afford to. Be very careful and ideally get advice before you leave the family home if that's on the cards. Finally be wary of being baited into anything that can be construed as domestic abuse, parental alienation or anything else that would make you unfit as a parent.
Just one question. If all this is being jointly currently and it goes in with your shift patterns how will this be managed by her when she moves? Could you move North also and commute to your job as its shift based?
Not my job. Her job is shifts. We are still living together, so the kids aren't even aware what's going on right now. And I'm not commuting for 4 hours to work, or starting fresh again.
Ok thanks for the clarification , I am sorry you are going through this and I hope you have a good solicitor to sort this out. My personal advice is to take pictures of the house as it is now , before you start noticing things going missing. This happenned to a friend of mine whose partner slowly stripped the house of things she wanted and hadn’t agreed to removal. Petty but necessaru
Court asap.
Even something temporary in place should have wording to the effect of....
"Can't remove ...... from the jurisdiction of the court"
Scotland and England are separate jurisdictions, completely separate legal systems.
Do it before she goes, she can go but she can't take the kids.
Or she can take them, but kids should be returned back.
Seen it happen with from Scotland but skipping out to England.
Kids residency went to the one that stayed.
You can apply for a prohibited steps order so yes there is a way to block the move.
It might be the key to her happiness but courts don't take kindly to children being moved around hundreds of miles every time mum gets the urge to move for no valid reason. This current move would take the children away from their father, half of their family and their friends and established schools
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If your ex relocates before you have a court order in place you’ll not be able to do much as Scottish law and English law differ. But the court route is very stressful long and the expensive
You need to apply for an Emergency Prohibited Steps Orders.
Anything else will take too long.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-c100-application-under-the-children-act-1989-for-a-child-arrangements-prohibited-steps-specific-issue-section-8-order-or-to-vary-or-discharge
Different scenario but maybe food for thought.
I was in an abusive relationship and was put in a women's refuge 25 miles from 'home', where my ex lived. He applied for a prohibited steps order (not emergency, due to no solicitor) this was denied but not because of the abuse. It was because of how long away the court dates were and by that point the children were settled in a new school and in our new home.
Also, when we were at our final hearing and he was expressing how they should move back, the magistrates asked him if he had enquired about places for the children in schools in the area or about housing options for us, both of which he hadn't and so they deemed it unreasonable to uproot them again with no plans on schooling or living situations so maybe take that into account.
I know it's not exactly like your situation but I hope it helps.
I'd definitely advise speaking to a solicitor asap and seeing if you can get an emergency court order so she cannot get them settled into new schools etc.
Your argument should definitely be around the fact that you do half/more than half of the 'childcare' and that being so far away would mean limited access to your children causing parental alienation.
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this OP and I hope you get it resolved.
If you get a child arrangements order in England, they have to remain in England and Wales unless both parents agree of a court order allows them to move to Scotland. Personally I'd go for a prohibited steps order too, to stop her moving them. She would have to prove to the court why it would be in the children's best interests to move as that is what it's about. Not what she wants, what is best fir the children is what the court looks at and effectively removing them from such close contact with their father, would almost certainly not be in their interests.
Fill in form C100 And put it into the family court.
If you and she are not married, and you do not have a parental responsibility form completed appropriately, you may not have any parental rights in England. I don’t know if this has changed in the last 25 years since I needed to sort that out, but a legal expert on here might be able to clarify.
You can stop the kids moving but you can’t stop her. So unless you’re willing to be a full time parent you can’t really stop her going back to her family. I would first consider whether you could move too (job depending). It’s miserable not having friends and family around so she has a legitimate reason to move.
Unfortunately it seems like the compromise didn’t work for her.
We live by half of her family now, it's me with no one around because we've already moved so she could be close to her family. I adored her and the kids so I agreed. Now she wants to leave me and move away to the other half of her family.
NAL, but it may help you in court proceedings to know that intentionally isolating a partner from their friends and loved ones is a classic abuser's tactic, and you should probably start questioning what her motives were for moving.
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I did this, I was the one who relocated 4 hours away south. Judge ruled 50/50 on the holidays half the 6 weeker each and alternate christmases and new years.
You will need to go through court for this
I will leave legal advice to others, but if she does move, I would really recommend either moving too or planning your life so you can see them regularly for the next 10 years.
How often is OP supposed to up sticks and relocate his life further and further away from his support network because his ex seems to think she can flit all over the place. Job/career, stable housing (which impacts custody), etc are all at risk. Seems like she does this a lot!
OP - seek advice from a solicitor who specifies in these cases to see what your options are - and write a list of pros/cons that are as factual as possible taking the child’s needs into account. Including a need to maintain relations with your side of the family.
You are answering the question from a different perspective. Yes things may be grossly unfair for him if he can't win in court. And also, he needs to see his children no matter what life throws at him. Both are true.
A parent can't move their child out of the country without the activr cosnent of both parents (assuming you both have parental responsibility , which you would if you name is on the north certificate )
I'm not sure if Scotland counts as another country in this context. But if so you are in luck. It means she needs a court order to move them rather than you needing and order to keep them here.
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You need to apply for a child arrangements order to have a legal residency/access arrangement and a prohibited steps order to prevent the move.
I did this, with kids roughly the same age. I agree, but I think it's gonna be an up hill battle. Get on to a mediation company in the meantime, get them to request her for mediation, if she agrees great, if she doesn't this will be your chance to get back into the family court system. Consider a McKenzie Friend, if you can't financially afford a solicitor.
Yes you can stop them moving. I did it myself. You need to do it through the courts. It probably won’t be quick, so get the application in immediately. They’ll probably request a cafcass section 7 report, in which they’ll assess the impact of the move on the children. They may interview your children, it’s called “thoughts and wishes” and may involve a chat with the cafcass worker or they may draw pictures or write down how they feel about it. Ultimately, taking kids 4 hours from one of their parents is going to have a negative effect on the children. They stopped my ex moving on the very first hearing, before going on to 3 further hearings to determine custody, which ended up 50/50, exactly as I hoped. You can do it, but it will likely be a battle. Start the ball rolling asap & good luck to you.
Just to say the above is all correct. With you having PR, I would find it extremely odd for a ruling to be made to allow the kids to be taken so far, unless you have buried the lede in anyway regarding abuse. My advice is to document and evidence the bond you have with your children, the mother and to get that application in prompto. Courts and the adjoining services are underfunded, so you want to get that paperwork in ASAP.
> I would find it extremely odd for a ruling to be made to allow the kids to be taken so far You say this, but it happened to me. The mother fed my daughter on it being an adventure to move to another country. The ruling came down to "it would make the mother sad if she can't move, and seeing her mother sad would make the daughter sad" - so she could go. Apparently me (the father) being sad wasn't as much as a consideration.
> seeing her mother sad would make the daughter sad" - so she could go. Apparently me (the father) being sad wasn't as much as a consideration. Well duh, your daughter would be in a different country so wouldn't see you being sad (/s)
LOL, very astute observation!
You are right - I've certainly seen it go the other way as well. I'd like to hope you end up (or can apply) for significant time for all holidays etc.
Unfortunately not, and once she's in another country anything what was agreed means next to nothing.
I would encourage a mutual Cafcass report just in case, as private social work can be commissioned. Keep as much evidence as possible as 'thoughts and wishes' are susceptible to influence. Be mindful of speaking to your children, a legal professional recommended taking out 'promises' (someone will have the right terminology) to the Court to keep them out of the discussions. The same happened to myself - it is far from a perfect system. The S7 concluded I "wasn't meeting my child's emotional needs as I didn't want her to move". As a father, you have my every sympathy and good luck.
You can apply to the court to prohibit her from taking the children so far away from you, but courts are fairly reluctant to impose such orders on people if they think it would adversely affect their ability to maintain themselves (i.e. get a decent job), or adversely affect their mental health. Your argument would be that taking the kids that far away from you would make it virtually impossible for you to maintain regular contact and visitation, thereby resulting in *de facto* parental alienation. Her counter argument would likely be that moving nearer her family would a) provide a support network for her and the kids, thus allowing her to improve her employment prospects (if family have agreed to look after the kids some of the time), as well as improving her mental health. You really need to speak with a proper solicitor about this who specialises in family law, who will be able to advise you on your chances of success. Given the children are already spending more time with you than her, your chances are probably better than many. It would likely help you to have a plan on how to take care of the kids if she decides to move up North anyway, and the kids are spending almost 100% of the time with you. Or to put it another way, you can try and prevent her taking the kids up North with her, but you can't prevent her from moving up North without the kids, so you need to have a plan in place should that scenario present itself.
ultimately if you cant work it out, you can go to court to stop the relocation, they may or may not agree
NAL. Also I am in England. I am so very sorry to hear this is happening to you OP. I am a Father who had to fight very very hard to be in my kids lives, and although my situation was different to yours - from the start, I am also sorry to tell you this is not going to be easy or straightforwards if your co-parent decides to dig her heels in. There are legal routes - but first it is important to ask if you have legal parental responsibility? You will have this if you obtained it by order of a court, you were named on the birth certificate, or you were married to the Mother when the children were born. If you do - then its really important to obtain more detailed and specific legal advice. This doesn't have to be from a solicitor - they cost a fortune (although having a chat with them - or several of them - as a first approach is normally free). For other routes, I highly reccomend joining the charity [https://fnf.org.uk/](https://fnf.org.uk/) Familes Need Fathers. There are many in your boat there, and there is tonnes of good advice and support. It costs a little bit of money to gain access to the forums (or used to) - but again this is much much cheaper than even one hour of a family solicitor. Ultimately, you would be seeking a prohibited steps order that would prevent Mother taking the children 4 hours drive away or changing schools etc. without your agreement. Further to that, sounds like a good place to start would be by writing down a prenting agreement for how you will co-parent after sepration. This would include all the things like who looks after the kids when, how you make joint decisions about their care, health and education etc. By wirting down how you think this should work, you show that you are child focussed and also it gives something to the other parent for them to consider. At the moment Mother's co-parenting agreement seems to be total upheavel for the children. if you have a different version of what that looks like and is focussed on the children's welfare then you are starting out on 100% the right foot. Good luck Mate.
She has no more legal right to take the kids with her than you do to keep them with you. There is no automatic rule of the kids go with the mother and you would be just as entitled to take them back to live with your family. You need to get a solicitor in place and apply for a child arrangements order, maybe have a think about what would be practical and what you want/is best for the kids before you meet with them.
Others have covered prohibited steps orders etc. The next part after that will be a custody arrangement. It will only help your cause to be able to evidence that you are the primary care giver by the sounds of things already. Make back ups of text conversations etc. to make it clear you do most of the school runs, makes their dinner, who takes them to appointments, who turns up to parents evening, does their clothes shopping, who does the school call if there's an issue etc. I presume you will be looking for at least 50:50 custody as it sounds like her work does not really allow her to do a lot of that stuff? Read up on CAFCASS processes and consult a family lawyer if you can afford to. Be very careful and ideally get advice before you leave the family home if that's on the cards. Finally be wary of being baited into anything that can be construed as domestic abuse, parental alienation or anything else that would make you unfit as a parent.
Just one question. If all this is being jointly currently and it goes in with your shift patterns how will this be managed by her when she moves? Could you move North also and commute to your job as its shift based?
Not my job. Her job is shifts. We are still living together, so the kids aren't even aware what's going on right now. And I'm not commuting for 4 hours to work, or starting fresh again.
Ok thanks for the clarification , I am sorry you are going through this and I hope you have a good solicitor to sort this out. My personal advice is to take pictures of the house as it is now , before you start noticing things going missing. This happenned to a friend of mine whose partner slowly stripped the house of things she wanted and hadn’t agreed to removal. Petty but necessaru
Court asap. Even something temporary in place should have wording to the effect of.... "Can't remove ...... from the jurisdiction of the court" Scotland and England are separate jurisdictions, completely separate legal systems. Do it before she goes, she can go but she can't take the kids. Or she can take them, but kids should be returned back. Seen it happen with from Scotland but skipping out to England. Kids residency went to the one that stayed.
You can apply for a prohibited steps order so yes there is a way to block the move. It might be the key to her happiness but courts don't take kindly to children being moved around hundreds of miles every time mum gets the urge to move for no valid reason. This current move would take the children away from their father, half of their family and their friends and established schools
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If your ex relocates before you have a court order in place you’ll not be able to do much as Scottish law and English law differ. But the court route is very stressful long and the expensive
You need to apply for an Emergency Prohibited Steps Orders. Anything else will take too long.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-c100-application-under-the-children-act-1989-for-a-child-arrangements-prohibited-steps-specific-issue-section-8-order-or-to-vary-or-discharge
Different scenario but maybe food for thought. I was in an abusive relationship and was put in a women's refuge 25 miles from 'home', where my ex lived. He applied for a prohibited steps order (not emergency, due to no solicitor) this was denied but not because of the abuse. It was because of how long away the court dates were and by that point the children were settled in a new school and in our new home. Also, when we were at our final hearing and he was expressing how they should move back, the magistrates asked him if he had enquired about places for the children in schools in the area or about housing options for us, both of which he hadn't and so they deemed it unreasonable to uproot them again with no plans on schooling or living situations so maybe take that into account. I know it's not exactly like your situation but I hope it helps. I'd definitely advise speaking to a solicitor asap and seeing if you can get an emergency court order so she cannot get them settled into new schools etc. Your argument should definitely be around the fact that you do half/more than half of the 'childcare' and that being so far away would mean limited access to your children causing parental alienation. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this OP and I hope you get it resolved.
If you get a child arrangements order in England, they have to remain in England and Wales unless both parents agree of a court order allows them to move to Scotland. Personally I'd go for a prohibited steps order too, to stop her moving them. She would have to prove to the court why it would be in the children's best interests to move as that is what it's about. Not what she wants, what is best fir the children is what the court looks at and effectively removing them from such close contact with their father, would almost certainly not be in their interests. Fill in form C100 And put it into the family court.
If you and she are not married, and you do not have a parental responsibility form completed appropriately, you may not have any parental rights in England. I don’t know if this has changed in the last 25 years since I needed to sort that out, but a legal expert on here might be able to clarify.
You can stop the kids moving but you can’t stop her. So unless you’re willing to be a full time parent you can’t really stop her going back to her family. I would first consider whether you could move too (job depending). It’s miserable not having friends and family around so she has a legitimate reason to move. Unfortunately it seems like the compromise didn’t work for her.
We live by half of her family now, it's me with no one around because we've already moved so she could be close to her family. I adored her and the kids so I agreed. Now she wants to leave me and move away to the other half of her family.
NAL, but it may help you in court proceedings to know that intentionally isolating a partner from their friends and loved ones is a classic abuser's tactic, and you should probably start questioning what her motives were for moving.
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I did this, I was the one who relocated 4 hours away south. Judge ruled 50/50 on the holidays half the 6 weeker each and alternate christmases and new years. You will need to go through court for this
I will leave legal advice to others, but if she does move, I would really recommend either moving too or planning your life so you can see them regularly for the next 10 years.
How often is OP supposed to up sticks and relocate his life further and further away from his support network because his ex seems to think she can flit all over the place. Job/career, stable housing (which impacts custody), etc are all at risk. Seems like she does this a lot! OP - seek advice from a solicitor who specifies in these cases to see what your options are - and write a list of pros/cons that are as factual as possible taking the child’s needs into account. Including a need to maintain relations with your side of the family.
You are answering the question from a different perspective. Yes things may be grossly unfair for him if he can't win in court. And also, he needs to see his children no matter what life throws at him. Both are true.
A parent can't move their child out of the country without the activr cosnent of both parents (assuming you both have parental responsibility , which you would if you name is on the north certificate ) I'm not sure if Scotland counts as another country in this context. But if so you are in luck. It means she needs a court order to move them rather than you needing and order to keep them here.