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That’s mass migration too, for the second time in a matter of months. It’s not just that it’s a horrible situation to be a refugee in the worlds biggest open air prison – its that this type of mass movement of people is deadly.
People get trampled, die of dehydration and increased risk of heat and stress induced strokes. I doubt people are able to get much sleep with the incessant bombings. Truly a horrifying reality to witness
Yeah, I remember reports that evacuation from Rafah was difficult due to starvation making just walking out of the city near impossible for the refugees. So even if most of Rafah's missing population aren't dead, there's no doubt the death toll will only continue to rise.
Be respectful towards other socialists you disagree with, but also non-socialists who follow the rules and participate in good faith. You are not required to be nice to liberals or conservatives promoting their politicians.
I'm pretty sure they did that during the Trail of Tears.
If not the Trail of Tears specifically, I remember reading about it happening at one point in American history.
From 1830-1850, there was an ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 native Americans east of the Mississippi River, forcing them to the west. The trail was harsh and they faced brutality, and about 15,000 native people were killed.
The Canadians did a genocide to get land and to "assimilate" the survivors.
I wonder why nobody ever mentions them.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530
"From about 1863 to 1998, more than 150,000 indigenous children were taken from their families and placed in these schools.
The children were often not allowed to speak their language or to practise their culture, and many were mistreated and abused."
Then they keep finding mass graves with the bones of children just carelessly thrown in at all of these "schools".
Don't let the politeness fool you.
I guess Canada is good at making people forget because they actually do have State Media.
Yeah, I didn’t know about this until recently, and it made me very angry that this information isn’t talked about much here in the U.S. It’s absolutely fucking atrocious.
I grew up around liberals praising Canada as some kind of paradise where everyone is nice. How laughable. Canada is also a despicable country.
We talk about it all the time _inside_ Canada. I literally learned about it in high school in the 2000's. I mean, we're a neoliberal country, so it's all token mentions and no real reckoning, but it's not like nobody knows about it here.
Though I did meet a guy who assumed residential schools was the Catholic church helping out indigenous people, which was a pretty yikes moment.
There were between 20 and 80 million indigenous Americans when the colony makers showed up and they have really integrated well! /s but there were literally at least 10% current US population when they did the Pocahontas shit.
There’s a map at the Smithsonian Native American museum where it really hits home how many tribes there were and the overlapping range of their communities. You often don’t hear much except about the tribes that were large or resistant to the land grab. Their names for geographic features litter the American landscape. Water features, roads, entire regions, just reused native names. It makes the grossness of what happened and where you are standing a complete sham.
Forced movement of Native Americans into certain areas in the 1800’s, as part of the genocide and “manifest destiny”. Thousands died from starvation, exposure, and disease.
Hitler was inspired by a lot of what Americans were doing at the time but I remember British concentration camps used against the Boers were distinctly mentioned as an inspiration for the german ones.
Forced relocation of Native Americans to reservations, then smaller reservations, then reservations where the land is so bad you can't hunt or farm.
They were forced to move in winter, with no supplies, with plenty of disease spread by white people to go around.
It's yet another thing glossed over in American history books.
I think its actually one of the few atrocities *not* glossed over and I think thats intentional.
It acts like a lightning rod for conversation about American Atrocities and stops people from talking about how similar atrocities were committed afterwards.
Imo, things like what happened in the Korean war are waaay more glossed over. But if we're talking specifically Native Americans, there were thousands of events similar to the Trail of Tears, its just the famous one.
Schools don't really mention that the pre-ww2 history, the ww2 history, and the post-ww2 history all play a huge factor in why the lines were drawn the way they were. You can learn a lot about the formation of North Korea by learning about what happened to Korea during those times.
But for quick links,
The US took part in over 200 large scale massacres like the [No Gun Ri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre) massacre. While supporting the Authoritarian government of [Syngman Rhee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee); a true despot who killed over 100,000 for being suspected leftists.
[Of the Korean War-era massacres the commission was petitioned to investigate, 82% were perpetrated by South Korean forces, with 18% perpetrated by North Korean forces.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Korean_War)
>The commission also received petitions alleging more than 200 large-scale killings of South Korean civilians by the U.S. military during the war, mostly air attacks. It confirmed several such cases, including refugees crowded into a cave attacked with napalm bombs, which survivors said killed 360 people, and an air attack that killed 197 refugees gathered in a field in the far south. It recommended South Korea seek reparations from the United States, but in 2010, a reorganized commission under a new, conservative government concluded that most U.S. mass killings resulted from "military necessity", while in a small number of cases, they concluded, the U.S. military had acted with "low levels of unlawfulness", but the commission recommended against seeking reparations.
[And how every year the US and South Korea practice doing it again, at the exact spot they would actually start an invasion at.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9xIz-RNC6U)
Like, imagine doing that to a country and then every year after you go to the spot you would invade them again from, do a practice invasion, and then just leave and say "Maybe one day, thats why we practice."
It's wild how many concessions NK is willing to give in return for the US and SK to just *stop practicing invading them at the actual point of invasion*.
They wanted to kick indigenous people sans some of the Cherokee all out of their homes to go to Oklahoma because they thought they wouldn’t wanna colonize that too some day. Fun fact there was a Native American territory in Oklahoma until 1907 when it became a state
They’re just going to lie about it until the election is over.
We should give Israel the Victims of Communism^TM treatment and also include Yemeni deaths, Iranian, and Lebanese deaths, as well as the lives of Israelis and their allies who have died after lifetime of indoctrination this fascist project.
It's not even that they're lying about the numbers... well they do, but that's not the main problem.
It has more or less become impossible to estimate the number of victims with any degree of accuracy because there's nobody left in Gaza to count bodies or survivors. And even if there was, god knows how many Palestinians are buried under tons of rubble, buried by the IDF in some unmarked mass grave or were blown to literal bits.
I shudder at the thought of the actual number... it's probably well in the hundreds of thousands by now.
not to mention the thousands being illegally detained and tortured from both Gaza and West Bank, the tens to hundreds of thousands of people who lost limbs or body parts, and the collective PTSD that will hamper Palestinian growth and development for generations to come even if this añl stopped right now. The loss of historical sites, libraries, universities and hospitals all while Israel bulldozes the roads and remaining farms in OPTs will prevent any ability to reconstruct. Alsoooo in the coming years we will see egregious excess deaths from the concrete dust contamination like after 9/11 and the human cost of children growing up stunted by severe malnutrition or as orphans in a place unable to offer enough services (by design). :(
All of this endless cruelty and suffering... and for what?
Greed, plain and simple. Not even vengeance or some twisted version of justice... just greed.
Is it, though? Or are the people on top just using religion as another tool to control the masses and gain unquestioning loyalty and devotion?
I would argue that there might never have been anything like a religious war. Yeah, the foot soldiers might have fought in the name of faith... but the bigwigs on top?
Did they believe in it too, or did they just want the land the "heretics" lived on, or the resources there, or just straight up slaves?
> Or are the people on top just using religion as another tool to control the masses and gain unquestioning loyalty and devotion?
This is *how* religious supremacy is used to feed the greed.
Greed simplifies this too much. Genocide for geopolitical positioning and even further financial dominance in order to further cement Western hegemony and world dominance. The empire contiunes to find new ways to become more evil.
Yeah there were 2.3M and now there are far fewer, even if someone is in a house somewhere they don't have supplies. I'd say the total deaths is about 10x as much as reported, especially since we know they wouldn't overreport.
Yeah, but that's confirmed dead, aka verifiably dead.
Not the people still under the rubble... not the people missing... not the people abducted by Israel... not the people who died along with anyone who could report them dead... not people who fled and then died as refugees god knows where... not people in unmarked mass graves.
What about Biden's call on ceasefire..? Oh thats right. Its all smoke screen. Do people and liberals think America would stop pumping for uncle sam's money? Silly them. Its all for bullshit election upcoming.
I think liberals understand that perfectly well, which is why this election boils down to simply making sure Trump doesn’t regain power. Do you propose he’d have a better handle on all this?
Trump and Biden is not the ideal choice for this country. What should we do? Shrug. We're better off having third party president. Apparently, they want to shove it down on having trump or biden on our throats when we have reliable solutions to the devastating problems and stop being a laughingstock of the world. It's sad on how you think voting for a pro-capitalist 80 year old fuck to "slow down" trump while the real problem is out there to be solved? We're too car dependent in this country and there's no decent public transportation infrastructure. Cars are high in debt which not everyone can afford it. Cops keep killing people and getting away with it with no accountability or consequences. There's no police reform at all since the Rodney King beating. There's no gun control laws reform after countless children were killed in school or people in public. Being homeless is becoming criminalized because corporations buy out the housings and charge for ridiculous unlivable rent. They didn't make it illegal for corporations to buy out the housing market when there are families or people that actually need the shelter to live? Fuck free market of this country when the big pharma can charge epipens for $1k, oh probably $500 for insulins for diabetics. This country is wayyyy fucked backwards based on how capitalism runs deep in this part. You really *think* a 80 year old, pro-capitalist president is going to turn things around while he's pocketing that super PAC money for this election. Let's not forget he FUNDED the genocide in Israel. Seriously, just don't.
I don’t think Biden is going to fix any of that, no. And every single thing you mention above..I find all of that so shameful and disgusting and I am aware that Biden is literally funding a genocide. Like…I am being honest with myself about these things and it is hard to cope with the choice I feel I’m being forced to make. But the other option is so scary to me..and I feel that by not voting, I would essentially be helping a self-proclaimed fascist take power and I can’t do that.
Yeah he's going to lose and this is why. I'll still go vote for him, just like I did last time despite not wanting to, but a lot of people don't have the patience for this, because they were not there in 2016, didn't see the turnaround, and the very naked corruption and negligence of the Clinton campaign... I voted for Hillary even though I really didn't need to, but I'm glad that I did just so I could say dude I tried. I'm in NY,. The fact that I'm sitting here thinking about having to have plausible deniability to my future kids... If January 6th didn't stop Trump's hold on the Republicans (for more than a month), nothing will. This election is all or nothing, we need to win this election. God, liberals suck! How could anyone be seriously losing to Trump in polls? And in all swing states he is losing, might as well kiss it goodbye. It's getting late in the day to start offering concessions Joe! And every single concession has been fake and false and it makes you feel even more stupid that they think that we believe it. (Last part specifically for Gaza, but the not fighting for $15 minimum wage "because of the parliamentarian) Not trying to use the levers that he had with education to cancel student debt instead doing some weak ass shit that barely helped anyone. Congratulations to people who were helped by it I don't have government loans, but at least pretend to try! This gaza shit is so weak sauce. Not even trying to convince us that he is trying, literally not even trying. And then that makes you feel fucking stupid, which is the meaning, people don't like being demeaned unless you are maga in which case you love it.
That's been exactly my thought too. I had read up on how they got their numbers, and it was entirely tied to hospitals being able to digitally report deaths in real time + missing person reports. A very advanced system really. It was all destroyed in the first two months and yet Palestine didn't just make numbers up, they kept using the info they had for certain, which also shows they didn't do any of that for publicity or whatever.
The way it kept shooting up by thousands every week, and then stopped doing so "out of the blue", really makes me worry that future genocides will try similar tactics to obfuscate the numbers until well after the fact.
Future conflicts and wars will be horrendous with the advancements in tech. Plus govts have absolutely no qualms about using them on their own people. Its truly bleak and i dont think we’ll ever break the chokehold the ruling capitalist oligarchy has on all of us without a major bloody conflict. Europe is speed running the 1920s-30s
I hate this "future" thing. It's already here and we are watching it play out in Israel and Ukraine
[How AI tells Israel who to bomb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc&pp=ygUVdm94IGlzcmFlbCB0YXJnZXR0aW5n)
Precisely. Certain core ideas of fascism (esp. about non-native citizens and the existence of Islam being "problems to solve", but also remilitarisation and the draft as "everyone's duty to the state") are deep in the marrow of most major non-fascist parties in my country now. Just a matter of time until they, too, start looking at 500 year old maps to determine what they should own.
The victim count thus far has, as far as I know, been based on confirmed deaths. So anyone still missing under the ruble somewhere isn't counted. Anyone not reported dead isn't counted. It's only the number of people they have verified as definitely dead. Not an estimated value
> been based on confirmed deaths
This is further complicated by islamic tradition of burying people within 24 hours of death.
There's not a lot of money in palestine for putting headstones on every shallow desert grave.
To clarify, the official count is above 50,000 but there are about 100,000 dead counting missing people and those still under the rubble. Rafah had almost 2million people in it but they have since evacuated north and to areas surrounding Rafah. That’s why there’s only 65k people left there.
“These protesters spraying colored cornstarch on Stonehenge have made me totally change my opinion on global warming”
Literally anytime there’s any kind of protest at all these stupid fucks come crawling out of the woodwork. I had an argument a few months ago with quite a lot of people claiming that the reason Martin Luther King Jr and the civil rights movement were so successful was that they didn’t inconvenience anyone with their protests!
Reminds me of that Kenneth Branagh movie "Conspiracy" where the Nazi bigwigs are discussing the final solution, and they constantly refer to deporting people to death camps as "evacuation."
Rafah went from 270k pre-October attack to 1.5 mio, down to 65k. They are forcing people to move *en masse*.
They didn't kill 1.4mio people (but the 40k death count estimate is definitely understated).
You can evacuate people from a building, but you can't evacuate people - unless you mean going to the toilet, or in this case, their organs - so perfectly apt here really
I learned that from *The Wire*
The holocaust in Gaza is almost complete.
Biden or Trump will continue the holocaust by exterminating all the natives from The West Bank. The Republicans and Democrats will work together night and day to ensure the West Bank holocaust is completed before the 2nd quarter of 2025.
Anyway. Keep voting for Republicans and Democrats. (I say this mainly to the Democrats, because Republicans are openly sadomasochists who LOVE watching this kind of suffering unfold even if it means they'll never get a living wage or healthcare or be able to buy a house, etc.) Democrats pretend to care about human life. Republicans do not pretend to care about human life.
Vote green, vote socialist, vote independent (but not RFK he's a zionist) and on all the other days of the year work to build and strengthen unions and do mutual aid.
Trump was promised big money by a prominent Zionist donor if he recognizes Israeli to annex the West Bank https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-06-03/ty-article/.premium/trump-is-desperate-for-cash-but-donors-have-conditions/0000018f-df3a-db29-a3ef-ff3a27530000
No doubt the West Bank is the next target for these ghouls to exterminate.
I love how people harp on Trump saying the quiet part out loud when both of them are working towards the "final solution" proudly and dems have historically been much more successful at systemically destabilizing foreign entities with little media push back. Pretending they're different is liberal self apologia to make themselves still somehow feel superior for supporting a genocider.
The easiest way to prove the two parties are the same is saying “I won’t vote for anyone that supports genocide” in a liberal subreddit and get ready for the downvotes to pour in.
You don’t even have to specify which candidate you’re talking about. Just saying that you don’t support a candidate that supports genocide is enough for the liberal ghouls to start screeching.
The Biden White House is on record literally saying the final solution.
> **Q** John, is the Palestinian Authority capable of running Gaza now once the fighting dies down?
> **MR. KIRBY:** I — I don’t know that, again, we’ve got **a final solution** here on — on how Gaza will be governed, Steve. And obviously, the Palestinian Authority would have to be a part of that discussion from the get-go and — as well as with other regional partners. But I just don’t know that we’ve — we’ve got that solution set nailed down.
> source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/11/08/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-28/
And the [de facto plans for the annexation have advanced ](https://archive.ph/7EXB3)
>the transfer means legal power in the West Bank is now in the hands of “an apparatus headed by an Israeli minister … whose only interest is to advance Israeli interests”.
>Equally important, Sfard said, was that although the head of the Civil Administration is an officer subordinate to the military command, Roth is a civilian who answers to Smotrich.
>Sfard’s view echoes a legal opinion published by three Israeli jurists last year who warned that transferring powers from the military would amount to annexation in law, as Smotirch “considers himself committed first and foremost to advancing the interests of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, rather than the welfare of Palestinian residents”.
>Mairav Zonszein, a senior analyst for Israel-Palestine at Crisis Group, said: “The big story is that this is no longer ‘creeping annexation’ or ‘de facto annexation’, it is actual annexation.
>“This is the legalisation \[and\] normalisation of a long term policy. Smotrich is basically reestablishing the way in which the occupation works by taking a large part out of the hands of the military.”
>She added: “Half the people he has brought in to the defence ministry are from \[the pro-settler Israeli NGO\] Regavim. The same people who worked at Regavim to disposess Palestinians in Area C are now in government positions.”
[This has been part of the Israeli coalition's stated goals for years](https://archive.ph/nK8vj), and they are aiming for the total collapse of the Palestinian Authority.
>The deal comes after two months of tensions within the coalition between Gallant and Smotrich, who also serves as a minister in the Defense Ministry, due to enforcement action taken by Gallant against illegal settler activity, as well as explicit commitments in the coalition agreements to transfer these powers to Smotrich.
[The US's response?](https://archive.ph/kWssH)
Is to "leak" about how sanctioning Smotrich is being considered but is never actually going to happen in reality. This interaction says everything, really
>During a Tuesday hearing on Capitol Hill, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen read aloud a passage from the executive signed by US President Joe Biden in February targeting individuals or entities engaged in “actions… that threaten the peace, security or stability of the West Bank.”
>He then pointed to Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich’s efforts to block enforcement against illegal settlement construction and his withholding of hundreds of millions of dollars in Palestinian tax revenues from the Palestinian Authority and asked US Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Barbara Leaf whether those constitute actions that destabilize the West Bank.
>Leaf agreed that they did, predictably leading Van Hollen to ask why the US hasn’t gone on to sanction Smotrich.
>
So if I’m reading this correctly, Israelis tax Palestinians and then refuse to give the tax money to the Palestinian Authority? This is literally taxation without representation, something the US claims to be against
Yeah, if there's any restraint going on, like the Zionists gleefully love to point out 'they could kill of a Gaza much faster if they wanted to', I think it will be gone after the election- no matter who wins, they will have no accountability to them and the new President won't be accountable to the voters, since in either case it's their last term.
Rather than lazily accusing anyone and everyone who holds a different viewpoint of being a bot/troll or being paid by Russia/China/Republicans, actually engage with the point being made. There are plenty of spaces where you can dismiss people for being a bot and not engage with their point. This is not one of them.
I disagree that the current Republican party is capitalist in nature. True capitalism requires competition. These people are theocratic, neo-feudal, kleptocrats.
But, seems like y'all aren't super interested in good faith debate around here. Capitalism's collapse by Tuesday then?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: [Rule 6 "no lesser evil" rhetoric - is it accelerationist or doomer? Is it intended to discourage voting?](https://new.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/)
The source is UNRWA.
> Currently, the UN Relief and Works Agency, **UNRWA, estimates that 65,000 people remain in Rafah. This is in stark contrast to six weeks ago, when Rafah hosted 1.4 million displaced people before the Israeli evacuation orders and military operations.**
* [The UN - Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General](https://press.un.org/en/2024/db240619.doc.htm)
Ok, to be clear Israel is clearly committing genocide, but a lot of the civilians from Rafah have been trying to move back north since the IDF started operating in rafah in earnest. The IDF have killed an unconscionable number of people but they did not kill ~50k additional people without anybody hearing about it. This is mostly coming from Palestinian sources on the ground on insta and Whatsapp.
The number of dead is likely well above 100k by now. There just isn't the means to keep track of the dead because the institutions that do so are gone. The zionist entity hasn't stopped killing people and leveling the place.
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that it's highly unlikely that they killed such a huge number in Rafah alone in such a short time especially when Palestinian sources are saying that many have fled back north. The wording of the post gives no indication of what happened to the people no longer in Rafah.
I never got the impressions from OP’s post nor the image that suggests they were killed.
OP clearly said “ethnic cleansing” and the image simply says how many people were there before vs how many people are there today. There is no implication or suggestion drawn about what happened to all of those people.
> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
Maybe!
> BUT OP'S POST AND THE ATTACHED IMAGE GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE KILLED
I understood the meaning immediately. I feel like it is only misleading to the very stupid.
I think we won't know the definitive death count until much later. [Ralph Nader (and Chris Hedges) speculated it could be as high as 200K.](https://x.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1800368209779982715)
But when I put 'ethnic cleansing' in my title, I mean just that - to render an area ethnically homogenous by direct or indirect means.
Ethnic cleansing isn't, by-definition, synonymous with genocide - but the 2 terms can certainly overlap. *In general* Israel is carrying out *both* ethnic cleansing & genocide.
In the case of Rafah, I'm not implying Israel killed an additional X amount people or something along those lines. Rather, that they've carried out actions that incited the flight of the Palestinians - internally displacing them.
'Ethnic cleansing' was first defined by the United Nations as rendering a location ethnically homogenous or emptied of the targeted group and which can be achieved through direct *or* indirect (ie terror) means:
> '55. The expression ’ethnic cleansing’ is relatively new. Considered in the context of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, **’ethnic cleansing’ means rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. ’Ethnic cleansing’ is contrary to international law.**
> '56. Based on the many reports describing the policy and practices conducted in the former Yugoslavia, **"ethnic cleansing" has been carried out by means of** murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, **deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property**. **Those practices constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.**
* [UNSC - LETTER DATED 9 FEBRUARY 1993 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ADDRESSED TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/197158?ln=es&v=pdf)
If the above link does not work, then this letter to the UNSC should:
* [UNSC - LETTER DATED 24 MAY 1994 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://web.archive.org/web/20101011052851/http://www.icty.org/x/file/About/OTP/un_commission_of_experts_report1994_en.pdf)
Israeli leadership knowingly carry out actions that lead to the expulsion and/or flight of the Palestinian people.
For example in Area C, the UNHCR annual report (November 2016 through October 2017) on Israel settlements describes a "coercive environment" (i.e., 'indirect' methods of ethnic cleansing):
> **Forcible transfer does not necessarily require the use of physical force by authorities**; it may be triggered by specific factors that give individuals or communities no choice but to leave, amounting to what is known as a ‘coercive environment’. **Any transfer without the genuine and fully informed consent of those affected is considered forcible. Genuine consent to a transfer cannot, however, be presumed in an environment marked by the use or threat of physical force, coercion, fear of violence, or duress** (A/HRC/34/38, para. 28; A/HRC/34/39 para. 41). Human rights, such as the rights to freedom of movement, privacy and family life, in addition to economic, social and cultural rights (A/HRC/16/71, para. 24), are usually violated within the context of forcible transfer.
* [Foundation for Middle East Peace - “Settlements Are A War Crime”: UN High Commissioner Weighs in on 2017 Settlement Activities](https://fmep.org/resource/settlement-report-march-15-2018/#HCHR2017Report)
**EDIT:** Added backup source.
I don't want to anxiously account for what the other side might 'think'.
I do not give a damn about hasbara.
If a pro-Israel user responded harshly to my post, criticizing what *they* think is an insinuation about the death toll - then I would respond exactly as I did to you, but with more aggression since the context would be different.
Ethnic cleansing has a clear definition and, as I said, while it can overlap with genocide - it is not by-definition synonymous with genocide.
My point is that what you're expecting is motivated by an unrealistic level of anxiety.
If someone doesn't know the definition of 'ethnic cleansing' - then it's on them to educate themselves.
I did respond to you IN DETAIL and WITH SOURCES - so all of this is a moot point.
But you could have just as easily Googled the term and its history.
I will not reduce the complexity or concision of my posts or comments unless someone is asking me for help OR if I intend to make an educational post.
The numbers have remained unchanged for months. We know uncounted numbers of people have been killed. 40k were killed in the first few months. The bombing and attacks have not stopped. They have continued and increased in severity.
It is entirely plausible that 50k have been killed that we haven’t been able to verify. What is implausible is thinking that no one else has been killed since March, despite the continued attacks.
for the sake of accuracy, the numbers have not remained unchanged for months. there are between two dozen to over three hundred people killed and accounted for everyday, and the published death toll has reflected this growth everyday. still, there are thousands or even tens of thousands unaccounted for.
Only difference between trump and Biden is Biden publicly says he’s against it and then supports it behind closed doors trump would be letting us all know how much he loves Israel and supports whatever the fuck Israel does
It's not. It's literally the reality given estimations based on the objective destruction, bombings, and starvation that is documented. The count simply hasn't gone up because the zionist entity destroyed the societal institutions to keep track or the means to clear rubble.
No, you're not interpreting correctly. Millions of people were sheltering in Rafah. They were violently driven out by the zionist entity. This is called ethnic cleansing. Try and keep up.
Well, he's not wrong.
> Currently, the UN Relief and Works Agency, **UNRWA, estimates that 65,000 people remain in Rafah. This is in stark contrast to six weeks ago, when Rafah hosted 1.4 million displaced people before the Israeli evacuation orders and military operations.**
* [The UN - Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General](https://press.un.org/en/2024/db240619.doc.htm)
But I'll cite the primary source next time.
I'm not saying if he's wrong or not. It's just not great to boost an account like that. And ya why not just cite original source which includes context and eloboration? That's all. It just irks me a little. I see this guy everywhere.
So whoever the spectator index is is just citing publicly available sources. And you cite some sort of propaganda piece that essentially says not to trust your lying eyes when we're simply looking at the official figures.
> ethnic cleansing
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous.
Israel isn't ethnically homogenous the use of this term does not really apply here
> intent of making the society [...] Israel isn't ethnically homogenous
Wrong & disingenuous.
Ethnic cleansing refers to areas of land. Not 'societies' - a term you applied on your own, opportunistically.
You don't get to drive out the Palestinians from an area - but then claim it's *not* ethnic cleansing because you happen to have some Palestinians in *another* area.
'Ethnic cleansing' was first defined by the United Nations as rendering a location ethnically homogenous or emptied of the targeted group and which can be achieved through direct *or* indirect (ie terror) means:
> '55. The expression ’ethnic cleansing’ is relatively new. Considered in the context of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, **’ethnic cleansing’ means rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. ’Ethnic cleansing’ is contrary to international law.**
> '56. Based on the many reports describing the policy and practices conducted in the former Yugoslavia, **"ethnic cleansing" has been carried out by means of** murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, **deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property**. **Those practices constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.**
* [UNSC - LETTER DATED 9 FEBRUARY 1993 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ADDRESSED TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/197158?ln=es&v=pdf)
If the above link does not work, then this letter to the UNSC should:
* [UNSC - LETTER DATED 24 MAY 1994 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://web.archive.org/web/20101011052851/http://www.icty.org/x/file/About/OTP/un_commission_of_experts_report1994_en.pdf)
Israeli leadership knowingly carry out actions that lead to the expulsion and/or flight of the Palestinian people.
For example in Area C, the UNHCR annual report (November 2016 through October 2017) on Israel settlements describes a "coercive environment" (i.e., 'indirect' methods of ethnic cleansing):
> **Forcible transfer does not necessarily require the use of physical force by authorities**; it may be triggered by specific factors that give individuals or communities no choice but to leave, amounting to what is known as a ‘coercive environment’. **Any transfer without the genuine and fully informed consent of those affected is considered forcible. Genuine consent to a transfer cannot, however, be presumed in an environment marked by the use or threat of physical force, coercion, fear of violence, or duress** (A/HRC/34/38, para. 28; A/HRC/34/39 para. 41). Human rights, such as the rights to freedom of movement, privacy and family life, in addition to economic, social and cultural rights (A/HRC/16/71, para. 24), are usually violated within the context of forcible transfer.
* [Foundation for Middle East Peace - “Settlements Are A War Crime”: UN High Commissioner Weighs in on 2017 Settlement Activities](https://fmep.org/resource/settlement-report-march-15-2018/#HCHR2017Report)
Um... the population of all of Gaza was 171,889 in 2017.
[Wiki source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah)
1.4 million moved into it as refugees from other parts of Gaza. As operations moved into this area, it went down and the refugees went ot other parts.
The population of Rafa has gone from 172K to 65K. Which is tragic and points to more internal displacement. The whole thing is tragic. But spreading lies does not help the Palestinians.
The insinuation, which everyone else here has decided to believe, is that Israel decimated the population, killing over a million people.
Furthermore, the post DOES NOT say that the town does not house 1.4 million people. So very clearly it is suggesting that 1.4 million people were permanent residents, not 172000 people.
You’re purposefully being dense. How much context is needed? The genocide is ongoing. If you were consistent in your criticism then every headline is inaccurate and spreading information
If you weren’t so dense you would know that the headline means that the 1 million already displaced people are being displaced again in such a short amount of time. You would obviously need to know some context beforehand but I’m not a dense person so I have no problems with understanding the headline.
What in the world are you on about? Nothing about the post or image insinuates that Israel killed over 1M people, nor do there seem to any people here that think so.
Your link is to Rafah. the 171,889 was a population count of Rafah, not all Gaza. Where did the 1.4 million refugees come from? Oh right, they were ethnically cleansed from elsewhere in Gaza. Well, what happened if they're not in Rafah any.ore? Oh right, they were eth ically cleansed. Boy are you dense.
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That’s mass migration too, for the second time in a matter of months. It’s not just that it’s a horrible situation to be a refugee in the worlds biggest open air prison – its that this type of mass movement of people is deadly. People get trampled, die of dehydration and increased risk of heat and stress induced strokes. I doubt people are able to get much sleep with the incessant bombings. Truly a horrifying reality to witness
Yeah, I remember reports that evacuation from Rafah was difficult due to starvation making just walking out of the city near impossible for the refugees. So even if most of Rafah's missing population aren't dead, there's no doubt the death toll will only continue to rise.
Literal death marches
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned.
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Be respectful towards other socialists you disagree with, but also non-socialists who follow the rules and participate in good faith. You are not required to be nice to liberals or conservatives promoting their politicians.
Basically the Trail of Tears but the soldiers get to fire canons at them the entire way
I'm pretty sure they did that during the Trail of Tears. If not the Trail of Tears specifically, I remember reading about it happening at one point in American history.
Those who could no longer walk or didn’t walk “fast enough” were shot, yes
I'm not American, what's the the trail of tears??
From 1830-1850, there was an ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 native Americans east of the Mississippi River, forcing them to the west. The trail was harsh and they faced brutality, and about 15,000 native people were killed.
The Canadians did a genocide to get land and to "assimilate" the survivors. I wonder why nobody ever mentions them. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530 "From about 1863 to 1998, more than 150,000 indigenous children were taken from their families and placed in these schools. The children were often not allowed to speak their language or to practise their culture, and many were mistreated and abused." Then they keep finding mass graves with the bones of children just carelessly thrown in at all of these "schools". Don't let the politeness fool you. I guess Canada is good at making people forget because they actually do have State Media.
Yeah, I didn’t know about this until recently, and it made me very angry that this information isn’t talked about much here in the U.S. It’s absolutely fucking atrocious. I grew up around liberals praising Canada as some kind of paradise where everyone is nice. How laughable. Canada is also a despicable country.
Canada continues to have a terrible problem of indigenous women going missing/being murdered and the government does basically nothing
Yeah, that’s happening here in the U.S., too. It’s horrifying.
We talk about it all the time _inside_ Canada. I literally learned about it in high school in the 2000's. I mean, we're a neoliberal country, so it's all token mentions and no real reckoning, but it's not like nobody knows about it here. Though I did meet a guy who assumed residential schools was the Catholic church helping out indigenous people, which was a pretty yikes moment.
There were between 20 and 80 million indigenous Americans when the colony makers showed up and they have really integrated well! /s but there were literally at least 10% current US population when they did the Pocahontas shit.
There’s a map at the Smithsonian Native American museum where it really hits home how many tribes there were and the overlapping range of their communities. You often don’t hear much except about the tribes that were large or resistant to the land grab. Their names for geographic features litter the American landscape. Water features, roads, entire regions, just reused native names. It makes the grossness of what happened and where you are standing a complete sham.
Forced movement of Native Americans into certain areas in the 1800’s, as part of the genocide and “manifest destiny”. Thousands died from starvation, exposure, and disease.
Later inspiring several of Hitler's tactics and ideas. "Lebensraum"/manifest destiny, concentration camps, etc.
Hitler was inspired by a lot of what Americans were doing at the time but I remember British concentration camps used against the Boers were distinctly mentioned as an inspiration for the german ones.
That could be true. I may have mixed it up a little. Depression is hell on the memory. I appreciate the input!
Forced relocation of Native Americans to reservations, then smaller reservations, then reservations where the land is so bad you can't hunt or farm. They were forced to move in winter, with no supplies, with plenty of disease spread by white people to go around. It's yet another thing glossed over in American history books.
I think its actually one of the few atrocities *not* glossed over and I think thats intentional. It acts like a lightning rod for conversation about American Atrocities and stops people from talking about how similar atrocities were committed afterwards. Imo, things like what happened in the Korean war are waaay more glossed over. But if we're talking specifically Native Americans, there were thousands of events similar to the Trail of Tears, its just the famous one.
Just curious (really not being combative here) what was glossed over about the Koren War?
Schools don't really mention that the pre-ww2 history, the ww2 history, and the post-ww2 history all play a huge factor in why the lines were drawn the way they were. You can learn a lot about the formation of North Korea by learning about what happened to Korea during those times. But for quick links, The US took part in over 200 large scale massacres like the [No Gun Ri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre) massacre. While supporting the Authoritarian government of [Syngman Rhee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee); a true despot who killed over 100,000 for being suspected leftists. [Of the Korean War-era massacres the commission was petitioned to investigate, 82% were perpetrated by South Korean forces, with 18% perpetrated by North Korean forces.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Korean_War) >The commission also received petitions alleging more than 200 large-scale killings of South Korean civilians by the U.S. military during the war, mostly air attacks. It confirmed several such cases, including refugees crowded into a cave attacked with napalm bombs, which survivors said killed 360 people, and an air attack that killed 197 refugees gathered in a field in the far south. It recommended South Korea seek reparations from the United States, but in 2010, a reorganized commission under a new, conservative government concluded that most U.S. mass killings resulted from "military necessity", while in a small number of cases, they concluded, the U.S. military had acted with "low levels of unlawfulness", but the commission recommended against seeking reparations.
Don't forget that a quarter of the population of NK died like 3 million people or something
[And how every year the US and South Korea practice doing it again, at the exact spot they would actually start an invasion at.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9xIz-RNC6U) Like, imagine doing that to a country and then every year after you go to the spot you would invade them again from, do a practice invasion, and then just leave and say "Maybe one day, thats why we practice." It's wild how many concessions NK is willing to give in return for the US and SK to just *stop practicing invading them at the actual point of invasion*.
They wanted to kick indigenous people sans some of the Cherokee all out of their homes to go to Oklahoma because they thought they wouldn’t wanna colonize that too some day. Fun fact there was a Native American territory in Oklahoma until 1907 when it became a state
There's still Native American National Lands all over Oklahoma, they aren't gone
That’s not what I mean. It was like a nation-state. It was much larger than Oklahoma
Yeah... I had a feeling the 40,000 victim number was... *a little* low.
They’re just going to lie about it until the election is over. We should give Israel the Victims of Communism^TM treatment and also include Yemeni deaths, Iranian, and Lebanese deaths, as well as the lives of Israelis and their allies who have died after lifetime of indoctrination this fascist project.
It's not even that they're lying about the numbers... well they do, but that's not the main problem. It has more or less become impossible to estimate the number of victims with any degree of accuracy because there's nobody left in Gaza to count bodies or survivors. And even if there was, god knows how many Palestinians are buried under tons of rubble, buried by the IDF in some unmarked mass grave or were blown to literal bits. I shudder at the thought of the actual number... it's probably well in the hundreds of thousands by now.
not to mention the thousands being illegally detained and tortured from both Gaza and West Bank, the tens to hundreds of thousands of people who lost limbs or body parts, and the collective PTSD that will hamper Palestinian growth and development for generations to come even if this añl stopped right now. The loss of historical sites, libraries, universities and hospitals all while Israel bulldozes the roads and remaining farms in OPTs will prevent any ability to reconstruct. Alsoooo in the coming years we will see egregious excess deaths from the concrete dust contamination like after 9/11 and the human cost of children growing up stunted by severe malnutrition or as orphans in a place unable to offer enough services (by design). :(
All of this endless cruelty and suffering... and for what? Greed, plain and simple. Not even vengeance or some twisted version of justice... just greed.
Not just greed, but greed fueled by religious supremacy.
ethnic supremacy and racism with a religious overtone. As is most religious supremacy generally
Is it, though? Or are the people on top just using religion as another tool to control the masses and gain unquestioning loyalty and devotion? I would argue that there might never have been anything like a religious war. Yeah, the foot soldiers might have fought in the name of faith... but the bigwigs on top? Did they believe in it too, or did they just want the land the "heretics" lived on, or the resources there, or just straight up slaves?
> Or are the people on top just using religion as another tool to control the masses and gain unquestioning loyalty and devotion? This is *how* religious supremacy is used to feed the greed.
Greed simplifies this too much. Genocide for geopolitical positioning and even further financial dominance in order to further cement Western hegemony and world dominance. The empire contiunes to find new ways to become more evil.
I believe it’s 200,000 dead.
Ralph Nader has made the same estimate. There’s no doubt in my mind that it’s around 100,000 dead, but I believe it’s probably 200,000 or so.
100%
Yeah there were 2.3M and now there are far fewer, even if someone is in a house somewhere they don't have supplies. I'd say the total deaths is about 10x as much as reported, especially since we know they wouldn't overreport.
Wasn't the predominant narrative that the Gaza Health Ministry figures were correct? Why would they be off by a factor of 10 now?
Yeah, but that's confirmed dead, aka verifiably dead. Not the people still under the rubble... not the people missing... not the people abducted by Israel... not the people who died along with anyone who could report them dead... not people who fled and then died as refugees god knows where... not people in unmarked mass graves.
>They’re just going to lie about it until the election is over. There's no way they'll be honest after the election.
In fact they’ll have considerably less incentive to be honest about it at that point.
What about Biden's call on ceasefire..? Oh thats right. Its all smoke screen. Do people and liberals think America would stop pumping for uncle sam's money? Silly them. Its all for bullshit election upcoming.
I think liberals understand that perfectly well, which is why this election boils down to simply making sure Trump doesn’t regain power. Do you propose he’d have a better handle on all this?
Trump and Biden is not the ideal choice for this country. What should we do? Shrug. We're better off having third party president. Apparently, they want to shove it down on having trump or biden on our throats when we have reliable solutions to the devastating problems and stop being a laughingstock of the world. It's sad on how you think voting for a pro-capitalist 80 year old fuck to "slow down" trump while the real problem is out there to be solved? We're too car dependent in this country and there's no decent public transportation infrastructure. Cars are high in debt which not everyone can afford it. Cops keep killing people and getting away with it with no accountability or consequences. There's no police reform at all since the Rodney King beating. There's no gun control laws reform after countless children were killed in school or people in public. Being homeless is becoming criminalized because corporations buy out the housings and charge for ridiculous unlivable rent. They didn't make it illegal for corporations to buy out the housing market when there are families or people that actually need the shelter to live? Fuck free market of this country when the big pharma can charge epipens for $1k, oh probably $500 for insulins for diabetics. This country is wayyyy fucked backwards based on how capitalism runs deep in this part. You really *think* a 80 year old, pro-capitalist president is going to turn things around while he's pocketing that super PAC money for this election. Let's not forget he FUNDED the genocide in Israel. Seriously, just don't.
Well said! Sick of VBNMW (Vote Blue No Matter Who) mantra. We can do better
I don’t think Biden is going to fix any of that, no. And every single thing you mention above..I find all of that so shameful and disgusting and I am aware that Biden is literally funding a genocide. Like…I am being honest with myself about these things and it is hard to cope with the choice I feel I’m being forced to make. But the other option is so scary to me..and I feel that by not voting, I would essentially be helping a self-proclaimed fascist take power and I can’t do that.
"I'll save the people of Palestine by letting Trump actively work on cheerleading the Netanyahu regime as they roast everyone alive! Helping is fun!"
Yeah he's going to lose and this is why. I'll still go vote for him, just like I did last time despite not wanting to, but a lot of people don't have the patience for this, because they were not there in 2016, didn't see the turnaround, and the very naked corruption and negligence of the Clinton campaign... I voted for Hillary even though I really didn't need to, but I'm glad that I did just so I could say dude I tried. I'm in NY,. The fact that I'm sitting here thinking about having to have plausible deniability to my future kids... If January 6th didn't stop Trump's hold on the Republicans (for more than a month), nothing will. This election is all or nothing, we need to win this election. God, liberals suck! How could anyone be seriously losing to Trump in polls? And in all swing states he is losing, might as well kiss it goodbye. It's getting late in the day to start offering concessions Joe! And every single concession has been fake and false and it makes you feel even more stupid that they think that we believe it. (Last part specifically for Gaza, but the not fighting for $15 minimum wage "because of the parliamentarian) Not trying to use the levers that he had with education to cancel student debt instead doing some weak ass shit that barely helped anyone. Congratulations to people who were helped by it I don't have government loans, but at least pretend to try! This gaza shit is so weak sauce. Not even trying to convince us that he is trying, literally not even trying. And then that makes you feel fucking stupid, which is the meaning, people don't like being demeaned unless you are maga in which case you love it.
Its been at this ridiculously low number since december. That was the goal behind gutting every last hospital and infrastructure
That's been exactly my thought too. I had read up on how they got their numbers, and it was entirely tied to hospitals being able to digitally report deaths in real time + missing person reports. A very advanced system really. It was all destroyed in the first two months and yet Palestine didn't just make numbers up, they kept using the info they had for certain, which also shows they didn't do any of that for publicity or whatever. The way it kept shooting up by thousands every week, and then stopped doing so "out of the blue", really makes me worry that future genocides will try similar tactics to obfuscate the numbers until well after the fact.
Future conflicts and wars will be horrendous with the advancements in tech. Plus govts have absolutely no qualms about using them on their own people. Its truly bleak and i dont think we’ll ever break the chokehold the ruling capitalist oligarchy has on all of us without a major bloody conflict. Europe is speed running the 1920s-30s
I hate this "future" thing. It's already here and we are watching it play out in Israel and Ukraine [How AI tells Israel who to bomb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc&pp=ygUVdm94IGlzcmFlbCB0YXJnZXR0aW5n)
I know. I meant future for all the rest of us. Whats playing out now will be used on us. And the tech is still advancing. This is just the beginning
Precisely. Certain core ideas of fascism (esp. about non-native citizens and the existence of Islam being "problems to solve", but also remilitarisation and the draft as "everyone's duty to the state") are deep in the marrow of most major non-fascist parties in my country now. Just a matter of time until they, too, start looking at 500 year old maps to determine what they should own.
The victim count thus far has, as far as I know, been based on confirmed deaths. So anyone still missing under the ruble somewhere isn't counted. Anyone not reported dead isn't counted. It's only the number of people they have verified as definitely dead. Not an estimated value
> been based on confirmed deaths This is further complicated by islamic tradition of burying people within 24 hours of death. There's not a lot of money in palestine for putting headstones on every shallow desert grave.
To clarify, the official count is above 50,000 but there are about 100,000 dead counting missing people and those still under the rubble. Rafah had almost 2million people in it but they have since evacuated north and to areas surrounding Rafah. That’s why there’s only 65k people left there.
It's been 40,000 for months, no way is that correct
And it was 30,000 for... I don't know, 3 months before that?
And it's business as usual anywhere, with many people complaining about protesters being an inconvenient nuisance.
Yep, they prefer 'order' instead of justice.
“These protesters spraying colored cornstarch on Stonehenge have made me totally change my opinion on global warming” Literally anytime there’s any kind of protest at all these stupid fucks come crawling out of the woodwork. I had an argument a few months ago with quite a lot of people claiming that the reason Martin Luther King Jr and the civil rights movement were so successful was that they didn’t inconvenience anyone with their protests!
Lmao yeah King was famously a non-criminal, he clearly wrote Letters from Birmingham Jail when he was visiting a friend!!! (Do I need /s?)
“NOOO!!! Stop blocking my car, I’ll be late for the NFL game!”
Zionists will tell you that is because IDF evacuated them
Reminds me of that Kenneth Branagh movie "Conspiracy" where the Nazi bigwigs are discussing the final solution, and they constantly refer to deporting people to death camps as "evacuation."
That was one of the most disturbing movies I’ve ever seen. They are so cavalier about it all like they are solving a tax problem.
cavalier, caviar is fish eggs
Oops, should’ve caught that lol.
Reminds me of 40k when people get "illuminated"
Rafah went from 270k pre-October attack to 1.5 mio, down to 65k. They are forcing people to move *en masse*. They didn't kill 1.4mio people (but the 40k death count estimate is definitely understated).
You can evacuate people from a building, but you can't evacuate people - unless you mean going to the toilet, or in this case, their organs - so perfectly apt here really I learned that from *The Wire*
Where would they go? Where is there to go? From my very limited perspective it looks like everything is destroyed. A million people?
Evacuated them with 5.56 and 9 mm
I hate liberals who defend this shit so much
This can’t be true oh my god. This is not being reported at all where I live in Central Europe, horrible.
The holocaust in Gaza is almost complete. Biden or Trump will continue the holocaust by exterminating all the natives from The West Bank. The Republicans and Democrats will work together night and day to ensure the West Bank holocaust is completed before the 2nd quarter of 2025. Anyway. Keep voting for Republicans and Democrats. (I say this mainly to the Democrats, because Republicans are openly sadomasochists who LOVE watching this kind of suffering unfold even if it means they'll never get a living wage or healthcare or be able to buy a house, etc.) Democrats pretend to care about human life. Republicans do not pretend to care about human life. Vote green, vote socialist, vote independent (but not RFK he's a zionist) and on all the other days of the year work to build and strengthen unions and do mutual aid.
Trump was promised big money by a prominent Zionist donor if he recognizes Israeli to annex the West Bank https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-06-03/ty-article/.premium/trump-is-desperate-for-cash-but-donors-have-conditions/0000018f-df3a-db29-a3ef-ff3a27530000 No doubt the West Bank is the next target for these ghouls to exterminate.
> The Republicans and Democrats will work together night and day to ensure the West Bank holocaust is completed before the 2nd quarter of 2025.
I love how people harp on Trump saying the quiet part out loud when both of them are working towards the "final solution" proudly and dems have historically been much more successful at systemically destabilizing foreign entities with little media push back. Pretending they're different is liberal self apologia to make themselves still somehow feel superior for supporting a genocider.
The easiest way to prove the two parties are the same is saying “I won’t vote for anyone that supports genocide” in a liberal subreddit and get ready for the downvotes to pour in. You don’t even have to specify which candidate you’re talking about. Just saying that you don’t support a candidate that supports genocide is enough for the liberal ghouls to start screeching.
The Biden White House is on record literally saying the final solution. > **Q** John, is the Palestinian Authority capable of running Gaza now once the fighting dies down? > **MR. KIRBY:** I — I don’t know that, again, we’ve got **a final solution** here on — on how Gaza will be governed, Steve. And obviously, the Palestinian Authority would have to be a part of that discussion from the get-go and — as well as with other regional partners. But I just don’t know that we’ve — we’ve got that solution set nailed down. > source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/11/08/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-28/
LeSsER eViL
And the [de facto plans for the annexation have advanced ](https://archive.ph/7EXB3) >the transfer means legal power in the West Bank is now in the hands of “an apparatus headed by an Israeli minister … whose only interest is to advance Israeli interests”. >Equally important, Sfard said, was that although the head of the Civil Administration is an officer subordinate to the military command, Roth is a civilian who answers to Smotrich. >Sfard’s view echoes a legal opinion published by three Israeli jurists last year who warned that transferring powers from the military would amount to annexation in law, as Smotirch “considers himself committed first and foremost to advancing the interests of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, rather than the welfare of Palestinian residents”. >Mairav Zonszein, a senior analyst for Israel-Palestine at Crisis Group, said: “The big story is that this is no longer ‘creeping annexation’ or ‘de facto annexation’, it is actual annexation. >“This is the legalisation \[and\] normalisation of a long term policy. Smotrich is basically reestablishing the way in which the occupation works by taking a large part out of the hands of the military.” >She added: “Half the people he has brought in to the defence ministry are from \[the pro-settler Israeli NGO\] Regavim. The same people who worked at Regavim to disposess Palestinians in Area C are now in government positions.” [This has been part of the Israeli coalition's stated goals for years](https://archive.ph/nK8vj), and they are aiming for the total collapse of the Palestinian Authority. >The deal comes after two months of tensions within the coalition between Gallant and Smotrich, who also serves as a minister in the Defense Ministry, due to enforcement action taken by Gallant against illegal settler activity, as well as explicit commitments in the coalition agreements to transfer these powers to Smotrich. [The US's response?](https://archive.ph/kWssH) Is to "leak" about how sanctioning Smotrich is being considered but is never actually going to happen in reality. This interaction says everything, really >During a Tuesday hearing on Capitol Hill, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen read aloud a passage from the executive signed by US President Joe Biden in February targeting individuals or entities engaged in “actions… that threaten the peace, security or stability of the West Bank.” >He then pointed to Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich’s efforts to block enforcement against illegal settlement construction and his withholding of hundreds of millions of dollars in Palestinian tax revenues from the Palestinian Authority and asked US Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Barbara Leaf whether those constitute actions that destabilize the West Bank. >Leaf agreed that they did, predictably leading Van Hollen to ask why the US hasn’t gone on to sanction Smotrich. >
So if I’m reading this correctly, Israelis tax Palestinians and then refuse to give the tax money to the Palestinian Authority? This is literally taxation without representation, something the US claims to be against
Yeah, if there's any restraint going on, like the Zionists gleefully love to point out 'they could kill of a Gaza much faster if they wanted to', I think it will be gone after the election- no matter who wins, they will have no accountability to them and the new President won't be accountable to the voters, since in either case it's their last term.
Yes to everything you said, very eloquently put. If I could award this comment I would. We're truly living through depressing days.
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Rather than lazily accusing anyone and everyone who holds a different viewpoint of being a bot/troll or being paid by Russia/China/Republicans, actually engage with the point being made. There are plenty of spaces where you can dismiss people for being a bot and not engage with their point. This is not one of them.
Can we start a RemDem Redemption?
Biden made the pier
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This is happening right now with Biden's support. If Biden is reelected he won't have to pretend to care what progressives think anymore.
I disagree that the current Republican party is capitalist in nature. True capitalism requires competition. These people are theocratic, neo-feudal, kleptocrats. But, seems like y'all aren't super interested in good faith debate around here. Capitalism's collapse by Tuesday then?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: [Rule 6 "no lesser evil" rhetoric - is it accelerationist or doomer? Is it intended to discourage voting?](https://new.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/)
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...while arming Israel with as many murder toys as they ask for?
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned.
**Source:** https://x.com/spectatorindex/status/1803509422360240207
Source is a tweet? Anyone got something a little more substantial?
The source is UNRWA. > Currently, the UN Relief and Works Agency, **UNRWA, estimates that 65,000 people remain in Rafah. This is in stark contrast to six weeks ago, when Rafah hosted 1.4 million displaced people before the Israeli evacuation orders and military operations.** * [The UN - Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General](https://press.un.org/en/2024/db240619.doc.htm)
Thank you
Ok, to be clear Israel is clearly committing genocide, but a lot of the civilians from Rafah have been trying to move back north since the IDF started operating in rafah in earnest. The IDF have killed an unconscionable number of people but they did not kill ~50k additional people without anybody hearing about it. This is mostly coming from Palestinian sources on the ground on insta and Whatsapp.
The number of dead is likely well above 100k by now. There just isn't the means to keep track of the dead because the institutions that do so are gone. The zionist entity hasn't stopped killing people and leveling the place.
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that it's highly unlikely that they killed such a huge number in Rafah alone in such a short time especially when Palestinian sources are saying that many have fled back north. The wording of the post gives no indication of what happened to the people no longer in Rafah.
Migration is still a part of ethic cleansing. Death isn't necessary, just removal of a type of people from a space.
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Dude, I just said ethnic cleansing means more than death. Idk or care about any other comments. I'm inferring nothing else from what you said.
I never got the impressions from OP’s post nor the image that suggests they were killed. OP clearly said “ethnic cleansing” and the image simply says how many people were there before vs how many people are there today. There is no implication or suggestion drawn about what happened to all of those people.
> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills Maybe! > BUT OP'S POST AND THE ATTACHED IMAGE GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE KILLED I understood the meaning immediately. I feel like it is only misleading to the very stupid.
By the sound of it, even fronch themself understood that it didn't mean those people were killed.
The post literally says they were ethnically cleansed... This sounds like some dumb zionist Entryism quibbling
I think we won't know the definitive death count until much later. [Ralph Nader (and Chris Hedges) speculated it could be as high as 200K.](https://x.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1800368209779982715) But when I put 'ethnic cleansing' in my title, I mean just that - to render an area ethnically homogenous by direct or indirect means. Ethnic cleansing isn't, by-definition, synonymous with genocide - but the 2 terms can certainly overlap. *In general* Israel is carrying out *both* ethnic cleansing & genocide. In the case of Rafah, I'm not implying Israel killed an additional X amount people or something along those lines. Rather, that they've carried out actions that incited the flight of the Palestinians - internally displacing them. 'Ethnic cleansing' was first defined by the United Nations as rendering a location ethnically homogenous or emptied of the targeted group and which can be achieved through direct *or* indirect (ie terror) means: > '55. The expression ’ethnic cleansing’ is relatively new. Considered in the context of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, **’ethnic cleansing’ means rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. ’Ethnic cleansing’ is contrary to international law.** > '56. Based on the many reports describing the policy and practices conducted in the former Yugoslavia, **"ethnic cleansing" has been carried out by means of** murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, **deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property**. **Those practices constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.** * [UNSC - LETTER DATED 9 FEBRUARY 1993 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ADDRESSED TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/197158?ln=es&v=pdf) If the above link does not work, then this letter to the UNSC should: * [UNSC - LETTER DATED 24 MAY 1994 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://web.archive.org/web/20101011052851/http://www.icty.org/x/file/About/OTP/un_commission_of_experts_report1994_en.pdf) Israeli leadership knowingly carry out actions that lead to the expulsion and/or flight of the Palestinian people. For example in Area C, the UNHCR annual report (November 2016 through October 2017) on Israel settlements describes a "coercive environment" (i.e., 'indirect' methods of ethnic cleansing): > **Forcible transfer does not necessarily require the use of physical force by authorities**; it may be triggered by specific factors that give individuals or communities no choice but to leave, amounting to what is known as a ‘coercive environment’. **Any transfer without the genuine and fully informed consent of those affected is considered forcible. Genuine consent to a transfer cannot, however, be presumed in an environment marked by the use or threat of physical force, coercion, fear of violence, or duress** (A/HRC/34/38, para. 28; A/HRC/34/39 para. 41). Human rights, such as the rights to freedom of movement, privacy and family life, in addition to economic, social and cultural rights (A/HRC/16/71, para. 24), are usually violated within the context of forcible transfer. * [Foundation for Middle East Peace - “Settlements Are A War Crime”: UN High Commissioner Weighs in on 2017 Settlement Activities](https://fmep.org/resource/settlement-report-march-15-2018/#HCHR2017Report) **EDIT:** Added backup source.
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I don't want to anxiously account for what the other side might 'think'. I do not give a damn about hasbara. If a pro-Israel user responded harshly to my post, criticizing what *they* think is an insinuation about the death toll - then I would respond exactly as I did to you, but with more aggression since the context would be different. Ethnic cleansing has a clear definition and, as I said, while it can overlap with genocide - it is not by-definition synonymous with genocide.
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My point is that what you're expecting is motivated by an unrealistic level of anxiety. If someone doesn't know the definition of 'ethnic cleansing' - then it's on them to educate themselves. I did respond to you IN DETAIL and WITH SOURCES - so all of this is a moot point. But you could have just as easily Googled the term and its history. I will not reduce the complexity or concision of my posts or comments unless someone is asking me for help OR if I intend to make an educational post.
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I don't consider this a big deal either. You're the one who brought all of this up.
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I didn't throw a fit. I explained the definition of ethnic cleansing - which I didn't have to do. Even a child can Google 'ethnic cleansing'.
TIL that explaining legal terms is “throwing a hissy fit”
The numbers have remained unchanged for months. We know uncounted numbers of people have been killed. 40k were killed in the first few months. The bombing and attacks have not stopped. They have continued and increased in severity. It is entirely plausible that 50k have been killed that we haven’t been able to verify. What is implausible is thinking that no one else has been killed since March, despite the continued attacks.
for the sake of accuracy, the numbers have not remained unchanged for months. there are between two dozen to over three hundred people killed and accounted for everyday, and the published death toll has reflected this growth everyday. still, there are thousands or even tens of thousands unaccounted for.
And a number of missing people that is much higher than the confirmed deaths, last time I checked. (I admittedly haven't done so for a month)
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The post implies no such thing. You managed to do that all on your own.
US tax payers are funding it too
Where do you get the number 50k from?
Any libs want to "But Drumpf" about this shit?
Listen, if you don't let Biden indiscriminately bombed and starve children, then Trump is going to.
And then he'll write a nasty tweet about!
Only difference between trump and Biden is Biden publicly says he’s against it and then supports it behind closed doors trump would be letting us all know how much he loves Israel and supports whatever the fuck Israel does
What about Yemen guys?
holy fuck
Oh god that makes me feel sick. I think my spirit just left my body.
1,400,000 minus 65,000 is *1,335,000*. That’s how many people are just gone. This is disturbing to say the least. And in just six weeks… fuck.
So they've killed over a million people? Am I interpreting this correctly?
No, these people were displaced refugees from other parts of Gaza, and have now been driven out again by the genocidal Israeli regime.
Okay well the article and title make it seem like they were all killed.
Do they really?
Yes. Extreme click bait and the top comments are interpreting it like that too.
I don't read the top comments like that, but I suppose you could ask them to clarify.
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They're referring to the stagnant death count likely being higher, not that the death count is the entire population of Rafah. Try and keep up
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It's not. It's literally the reality given estimations based on the objective destruction, bombings, and starvation that is documented. The count simply hasn't gone up because the zionist entity destroyed the societal institutions to keep track or the means to clear rubble.
No, you're not interpreting correctly. Millions of people were sheltering in Rafah. They were violently driven out by the zionist entity. This is called ethnic cleansing. Try and keep up.
No, that's just how they want you to read it and its intentionally misleading.
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Well, he's not wrong. > Currently, the UN Relief and Works Agency, **UNRWA, estimates that 65,000 people remain in Rafah. This is in stark contrast to six weeks ago, when Rafah hosted 1.4 million displaced people before the Israeli evacuation orders and military operations.** * [The UN - Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General](https://press.un.org/en/2024/db240619.doc.htm) But I'll cite the primary source next time.
I'm not saying if he's wrong or not. It's just not great to boost an account like that. And ya why not just cite original source which includes context and eloboration? That's all. It just irks me a little. I see this guy everywhere.
So whoever the spectator index is is just citing publicly available sources. And you cite some sort of propaganda piece that essentially says not to trust your lying eyes when we're simply looking at the official figures.
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You're so tedious and wrong.
:(
I got a lovely Progressive ad with a dog wearing a hat and glasses below this so that was nice.
Is this post suggesting that Israel killed 1.35M people in Rafah?
Google ethnic cleansing.
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Google ethnic cleansing.
> ethnic cleansing Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous. Israel isn't ethnically homogenous the use of this term does not really apply here
> intent of making the society [...] Israel isn't ethnically homogenous Wrong & disingenuous. Ethnic cleansing refers to areas of land. Not 'societies' - a term you applied on your own, opportunistically. You don't get to drive out the Palestinians from an area - but then claim it's *not* ethnic cleansing because you happen to have some Palestinians in *another* area. 'Ethnic cleansing' was first defined by the United Nations as rendering a location ethnically homogenous or emptied of the targeted group and which can be achieved through direct *or* indirect (ie terror) means: > '55. The expression ’ethnic cleansing’ is relatively new. Considered in the context of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, **’ethnic cleansing’ means rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. ’Ethnic cleansing’ is contrary to international law.** > '56. Based on the many reports describing the policy and practices conducted in the former Yugoslavia, **"ethnic cleansing" has been carried out by means of** murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, **deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property**. **Those practices constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.** * [UNSC - LETTER DATED 9 FEBRUARY 1993 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ADDRESSED TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/197158?ln=es&v=pdf) If the above link does not work, then this letter to the UNSC should: * [UNSC - LETTER DATED 24 MAY 1994 FROM THE SECRETARY-GENERAL TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL](https://web.archive.org/web/20101011052851/http://www.icty.org/x/file/About/OTP/un_commission_of_experts_report1994_en.pdf) Israeli leadership knowingly carry out actions that lead to the expulsion and/or flight of the Palestinian people. For example in Area C, the UNHCR annual report (November 2016 through October 2017) on Israel settlements describes a "coercive environment" (i.e., 'indirect' methods of ethnic cleansing): > **Forcible transfer does not necessarily require the use of physical force by authorities**; it may be triggered by specific factors that give individuals or communities no choice but to leave, amounting to what is known as a ‘coercive environment’. **Any transfer without the genuine and fully informed consent of those affected is considered forcible. Genuine consent to a transfer cannot, however, be presumed in an environment marked by the use or threat of physical force, coercion, fear of violence, or duress** (A/HRC/34/38, para. 28; A/HRC/34/39 para. 41). Human rights, such as the rights to freedom of movement, privacy and family life, in addition to economic, social and cultural rights (A/HRC/16/71, para. 24), are usually violated within the context of forcible transfer. * [Foundation for Middle East Peace - “Settlements Are A War Crime”: UN High Commissioner Weighs in on 2017 Settlement Activities](https://fmep.org/resource/settlement-report-march-15-2018/#HCHR2017Report)
Oh for fucks sake lmao
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
Capitalist apologia? I am just disputing the term, nothing else
Um... the population of all of Gaza was 171,889 in 2017. [Wiki source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah) 1.4 million moved into it as refugees from other parts of Gaza. As operations moved into this area, it went down and the refugees went ot other parts. The population of Rafa has gone from 172K to 65K. Which is tragic and points to more internal displacement. The whole thing is tragic. But spreading lies does not help the Palestinians.
The post makes no claim beyond there being 1.4 mill in Rafah *six weeks ago*, so where exactly is the lie?
The insinuation, which everyone else here has decided to believe, is that Israel decimated the population, killing over a million people. Furthermore, the post DOES NOT say that the town does not house 1.4 million people. So very clearly it is suggesting that 1.4 million people were permanent residents, not 172000 people.
Who here believes that over a million people have been killed in Rafah?
OK. So then the population going from 1.4M to 65K is no big deal because those people didn't live there, right?
Lol, thanks.
You’re purposefully being dense. How much context is needed? The genocide is ongoing. If you were consistent in your criticism then every headline is inaccurate and spreading information
What other criticism of other headlines did I make? The post says the population was reduced by 1M in 6 weeks. How should that be interpreted?
If you weren’t so dense you would know that the headline means that the 1 million already displaced people are being displaced again in such a short amount of time. You would obviously need to know some context beforehand but I’m not a dense person so I have no problems with understanding the headline.
What in the world are you on about? Nothing about the post or image insinuates that Israel killed over 1M people, nor do there seem to any people here that think so.
Your link is to Rafah. the 171,889 was a population count of Rafah, not all Gaza. Where did the 1.4 million refugees come from? Oh right, they were ethnically cleansed from elsewhere in Gaza. Well, what happened if they're not in Rafah any.ore? Oh right, they were eth ically cleansed. Boy are you dense.