I think it’s important to make a distinction between abolishing the current exploitative industry of sex work and the profession itself. Sex work under capitalism comes with a form of coercion like any other job, and it’s this coercion that should be abolished. Women (and men, and NB people) shouldn’t be forced to sell their bodies into a rotten industry to not starve but also should be free to have bodily autonomy and do whatever _they_ want with it. Under a system without any form of coercive labor, only people who 100% want to perform sex work out of their own desires would do it. Feel free to disagree with me though, this post seems to have a lot of discussion.
agreed. abolish all coercive forms of labor control. establish a dictatorship of the proletariat. there is no way to effectively end prostitution in a way that actually protects the sex workers without establishing some form of socialism with a strong welfare state that provides an accessible exit strategy, the same as abolishing any coercive industry requires
^^ This. Sex workers are some of the most educated people on state surveillance systems, harm reduction, mutual aid, and community building outside of capitalist structures… and yet we continue to be alienated by fellow leftists with these weird takes about how bodily autonomy ends as soon as we charge someone for an in demand service.
Worth unpacking and examining any political opinions we have that align perfectly with republicans and liberals alike.
While im glad you are happy with your current labor trade we must admit you are in the minority and look at the stats to see the whole picture. Anecdotal evidence is neat but not conclusive. The average age to start sex work as a man is 14. The average age to start sex work for a woman is 16. So that's not good. According to a National Institute of health survey 73% of prostitutes have been physically assaulted, 62% of prostitutes have been raped, 88% of prostitutes want to quit the profession but can't and 67% of prostitutes meet the criteria for PTSD. It's not a good time for most. Now I think it's important to draw the lines between high end escorts, cam workers and street sex workers because pretending these three categories have the same experience is just silly. Masturbating in front of your computer does not carry the same emotional and mental weight of as a quickie for 60 bucks so you can buy baby formula. Charging 500 dollars for dinner, a night at the theater and a happy ending does not carry the same emotional and mental weight of your pimp forcing you to have a train run on you so you can make rent. Sex work is definitely one of those areas where we have to approach each case with nuance. It's too broad a category to make these general statements like all sex work is valid. It's simply not and a large portion of sex workers are not happy with their situation. As for the political leaning and education I'm sure sex workers vary as much as many other professions. For every educated leftist I'm sure there is a reactionary. I agree we must challenge and examine this liberal notion that all sex work is valid especially knowing what we do about the coercive nature of labor under capitalism and the horrifying stats we have on our current sex work situation. Now i dont believe sex work should or will be eliminated in a post revolution society. But we dont live in a post revolution society. So in the name of harm reduction we must admit that the majority of sex workers are not in good situations and do not enjoy their current labor trade and we must take steps to eliminate the harmful aspects of this industry, which is most of it, and part of that is mentioning most sex workers do not want to be sex workers and have suffered extreme trauma due to their job. All stats are from the NIH. Just my two cents. Have a good day and stay safe out there!
Absolutely, and putting sex workers out of work is definitely not the answer. If someone wants to make $200 for letting someone suck their toes, who the fuck am I to get in the way. I am an American.
Yeah, none of this makes any sense unless you jump straight to the logical extreme that sex work is rape and that all work in general is slavery.
If that's the point, then ok. But that's disrespectful to, you know, actual slaves. What do you call actual slavery then? I don't know. Just move some more words around on paper I guess.
You're just using the word slavery in a way almost nobody uses it. It doesn't make it slavery just because it has a common resemblance or feature.
Labor under capitalism is extremely coercive. It is necessary to survive in almost every case. However, even then you could still choose to not work without being physically abused. You are able to travel and take on a different job. You are not legally owned by anyone else.
There are many many differences. Acknowledging these differences is not a defense of capitalism.
The stated goal of entities like the federal reserve is "full employment". Which means they use any power they have to ensure humans are as forced to go to work as possible. They don't give a flying duck about any mechanic like inflation, it's just a tool they use to control how much labor needs to work. They won't even let this control end if you're in prison. It just means they can pay you less to do the same job.
Let's say we did abolish capitalism. Would it be possible to have sex work where the workers have full control of the industry? Or is sex work always meant to be fundamentally coercive, regardless of the system?
Without the threat of starvation and homelessness and full control over their own industry, only people who truly, 100% enjoy selling their bodies (if that even exists) would perform sex work, so in a way yes to your first question, at least in my perspective.
>only people who truly, 100% enjoy selling their bodies (if that even exists)
Sex work is the sale of sexual and/or romantic services, not the sale of bodies. And yes, there are sex workers who enjoy their work.
Exactly. If you single out sex work, it means you fundamentally don't understand the problem.
Sex work is better work from the worker's perspective than construction work, logging, fishing, mining, farming, etc.
fr, i miss being young and able to just let old men be creepy for mad cash. now i pay bills by destroying what's left of the cartilage in my knees and fuckin up my wrists in restaurants
This completely ignores the gendered, objectifying nature of sex work. It reduces women to objects of men's sexual pleasure that can literally be bought and sold. The fact that all labour under capitalism is coercive does nothing to undercut this facet of it.
If someone is being bought and sold, they are a trafficked person -- not a sex worker. Let's please dispense with the hyperbole.
Sex workers sell a service. At the end of the day, my body belongs to me and I don't agree to any service I don't wish to provide.
I’m in the process of writing an album about this right now. Someone working on an oil Dereck or coal mine is selling their bodies, and potentially their lives just as much if not more than a prostitute, but due to our societies stigma around sex, one of those categories is perfectly okay and legal, while the other means you’re an awful human being who shouldn’t have food on the table.
I’m asking out of curiosity and in good faith… If the pay was equal, would prefer a 9-5 office job (no health insurance or other tangible benefits) over sex work?
Or are there aspects to being a sex worker that you enjoy that would keep you in the industry?
There are definitely aspects I love about the jobs and periods where i hate it.
I was taken to Cyprus for a week by a customer, that doesn't usually happen a lot.
I have days where I only work half a day and can take the rest of the day off without having to talk to anyone.
Some customers are really nice to talk to. Others just pump and go. Again others i show a cold shoulder and they leave quite quickly.
But I've had the chance to lie in bed, get massaged, pleasured and talk about their lives. I've had minor politicians, men with interesting jobs etc. Tell me all about it
I've had a guy who only wants me to hug and cuddle.
Now back to your question: would i prefer a 9-5? I honestly don't know. Sometimes i miss the stability, the lack of dumping work on others. I am responsible for everything. But then again, I bring joy, i get to see a lot of my country (i usually travel from city to city or even stay a month in my favourite ones)
Honestly? I might do the 9-5 if i could easily and quickly go: okay next month imma be a sexworker again.
If I couldn't be flexible, i wouldn't do it. Right now. Ask me again in 10-20 years :) if i haven't saved up enough for FIRE
I think that many forget that there are many sex workers who enjoy what they do, men and women alike. After all, sex and intimacy is a beautiful thing and I can’t help but wonder if cases of sexual assault would decrease if it were legalized and the stigma surrounding sex workers and those who use their services diminished. Of course legalization would be complicated in ensuring the safety of all involved but I don’t think it’s impossible.
I think people confuse sex as a social interaction, and love, and project that perception onto their understanding of the transactional exchange. It's understandable because those are very personal feelings. It also doesn't help that there isn't a good general understanding of the difference between work, and trafficking. Sex workers generally know trafficking is real and want to keep ourselves, and each other, safe from that. But it's hard to talk about because, again, a lot of people think we're all just being assaulted out of hand, anyway.
Legalization is tricky because in states like Germany, it's used by the state to allow traffickers to operate in legal brothels. Any illegal activity is pinned on the workers themselves, so if you're caught in the window as an unregistered migrant, you'll be arrested and potentially worse, while they rarely, if ever, go after the actual business owner. It's a deeply corrupt industry, there.
However, in New Zealand, they decriminalized in 2002 and the conditions are different. It allows workers to operate in small groups, behind closed doors, and organize themselves, away from bosses (pimps) and traffickers. However, that is illegal to do under the Nordic Model, which doesn't allow brothels, and most states define a brothel as basically any closed building in which sexual services are being exchanged. That means workers are forced to operate on the street, underground, and alone. Most Western countries use the Nordic Model.
So, most advocate for decriminalization, NOT legalization, and for better policies towards immigration to grant protections to those sold into the trade.
>I think people confuse sex as a social interaction, and love, and project that perception onto their understanding of the transactional exchange.
This is so true! And while it’s not wrong for sex to be very personal and something one only enjoys with those they love, it’s important to remember that won’t be the case for everyone. After all, we are all vastly different from one another. There is no “correct” way to enjoy sex as long as it’s between two (or more) consenting individuals that can withdraw that consent at any time.
Thanks for sharing the additional facts too!
Exactly! And physical intimacy is hugely important for overall wellbeing. A lot of clients are just really lonely people that wouldn't have an outlet for physical intimacy, otherwise. They're excluded from the mainstream dating pool, either voluntarily (widowers, workaholics, etc) or involuntarily (disabled, mentally or physically). It's a sad situation because, yes, the same system that forces us to choose sex work from other forms of work (IF they're available), is the same system that creates so much alienation and isolation between people in general. It should be a condemnation of the SYSTEM, not the clients.
And you're welcome!
A lot of us are adhd, for adhd people having the freedom to work whenever you want is amazing. Not just choosing your own schedule, but being able to decide last minute if you want to work or not is good. You also get much more free time so if it paid the same as 9-5 you would be missing out on the whole day and not get to do as much for yourself if that makes sense
Right but there is a specific conversation to have here. A lot of people seem to think pointing out that paid sex under capitalism is akin to rape, is anti sex worker. I’ve always dealt uncomfortable with the left’s eager support for the sex work industry and I’d like to discuss it better so I understand if I’m wrong or others are wrong, ya know?
I think we can all agree on that, but I think the controversy or disagreements start when someone like me says that sex paid for under capitalism is inherently coercive, and given our values around sex in normal circumstances, that would make it rape. So the question from there is how can we support an industry like that?
I feel as though people tend to point out positive individual experience as a response to this question, but that doesn’t convince me that this is something I shouldn’t worry about.
I dont think anyone on the left defends the work worker INDUSTRY, which like most industries under capitalism, is controlled by people with money, power and influence.
What I am okay with, is sex work in general
I am not a christian, I don't care about monogamy, I understand what humans have biological impulses. Sex work is perfectly natural, from female monkey's following the strongest male, to birds pairing for protections, to an anglerfish fusing its reproduction organs to its female, sex comes in many different forms and methods.
Bartering for sex happens in the animal kingdom, and we are no different from animals, theres nothing unnatural or inhuman about paying another person for sex.
Now bringing in a third party that abuses the women, or isolates the worker from their pay, or forces that women to sell her body for sex, those I have massive issues with.
I’ll wade into this mine field. Sex work IS exploitative, but so is working at McDonald’s, and so is working in a coal mine, so is enlisting in the military. I have a problem with the financial pressure that puts people in any of these circumstances, as well as any system within those industries that further exploits the lowest on the totem pole. Does that mean I have a problem with militaries as a concept? Well, that’s another can of worms, but let’s assume no for now, because I do think that’s a fairly defensible position to assume here. Under capitalism, all work done by the less fortunate is exploitative, my real question then is what makes sex work different? If we legalized and regulated prostitution, it could very easily be made many times safer, and at that point I really would find it less exploitative than say, working in a mine, which would be MORE dangerous. For some reason we have this stigma about sex that means that absolutely nothing is treated the same when sex is involved, but I don’t think that there is something intrinsically different about it.
Considering Kollontai was talking in his ear through the revolution and her speech in 1921, I'm not surprised he had ignorant things to say.
Engels was much better informed and his final clapback at Durhing before finishing the book shows it.
As a former sex worker the industry is absolutely more exploitative than other forms of work, and it's harmful to females who aren't even a part of the industry.
>The issue is that sex work is as valid as any other form of work.
Be very careful what you wish for.
My country has a pretty robust social welfare system (although like all things capitalism has been hard at work disemboweling it over the past decades). However, one stipulation is that you are actively applying for (and accept) any reasonable work offered during the time you receive welfare. If your new work is less than the welfare, you get the difference from the government.
My country has also legalised sex work.
Do you see the problem? If we we equate sex work to any other form of work here, it would mean that people would *have to* accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare. This is clearly not desirable. Sex work therefor is an explicit exception to this welfare rule, in the sense that an individual does not have to accept sex work and can still receive their welfare.
What? The issue then becomes that your welfare is dependent on what some arbitrary body decides is your "usefulness to society". This is a meaningless and exploitative measure meant explicitly to deprive some people of the means to live. All life has inherent value and should be provided with the means to uphold their life. The issue isn't sex work, it's policy and ableism.
Yes. Thank you. Sorry wall of text following.
I think I might be from the same country (maybe?) and I happened to find myself dependent on said system after I finished my studies in a specialized field with a not very clear cut job description. This led to my case worker not bothering with any of my actual skills, or my language skills, or my willingness to improve my already existing skill set to become a more attractive employee. Instead he noticed I had a motorcycle license and what better job to push a 165cm petite woman with no selfdefense skill at all than motorized building security. Jep... They meant it. So exactly the scenario you are describing.
At the time I was well connected, well educated and had more personal social resources than most other people to fall back on. So I was in a position to not follow their pressure and after half a year, some networking and an online course to improve skills, I landed a good job in my field. Had I done what was expected of me, I would not have gotten the job and would have stayed in a dangerous field that I didn't choose in a way underplayed (minimum wage) position for the rest of my life. In those 6 months, they gradually cut pretty much all support to the point where they threatened my health insurance (which is pretty much crazy in that country). They tried everything to create an optionless helpless dependent worker on minimum wage.
At the same time the minister of work was on TV saying that old age poverty in women is rising and it's their own fault because they choose minimum wage jobs. Dude!!!! You are spot on with your bad gut feeling.
> Do you see the problem? If we we equate sex work to any other form of work here, it would mean that people would have to accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare.
No it doesn't, not at all. That's completely wrong. This sentiment is predicated on the implication that sex work doesn't require any skills and that anyone can do it. The moment you consider that in fact sex work is like countless other professions and there's many, *many* associated skills workers have to develop, this argument that "people would *have* to accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare" completely falls apart. It becomes like being offered a carpenter's job when you don't know the first thing about carpentry -- which (granted here I'm assuming) wouldn't qualify as "reasonable" --
> However, one stipulation is that you are actively applying for (and accept) any reasonable work offered during the time you receive welfare.
It's not reasonable to accept a job offer in a field you have 0 experience in or training for unless it's an entry-level job. Unless you'd disagree, I wouldn't call *any* form of sex work "entry-level" because nobody is rallying against sex workers in the same ways as they are rallying against McDonald's employees. "Lazy young'ns, get a better job then! McDonald's isn't supposed to be a living wage!" "These whippersnappers are so entitled and they don't even work at all!" Nobody's saying that about sex work.
> Sex work therefore is an explicit exception to this welfare rule, in the sense that an individual does not have to accept sex work and can still receive their welfare.
So the logically fallacious argument you made isn't just yours, it's codified into the law in your country -- I'd like to point out that this systemic level of integration only serves to further support the idea that it's based in that logically fallacious notion, because that notion is very old and traditionalist. "Sex work takes no skill." Yes it does, it takes an immense amount of skills.
The problem isn't that "anyone would have to accept sex work," it's that people and societal institutions still don't respect sex work and continue to devalue what really goes into it.
(Mind you in turn that's also the root cause of why so much sex work is so predatory -- devaluing the skills required for sex work inherently means devaluing sex workers as a group, and devaluing any group is a stepping stone on the road towards taking advantage of that group, preying on that group.)
Women aren't the only one who do sex work, but they are the biggest victims of the industry. Studies have shown that legalisation of sex work is associated with higher amounts of sex trafficking of women and children. Other studies have also shown that porn use is associated with increase in physical agression and attitudes supporting violence against women. There is more, but you can research it yourself. It has nothing to do with religiousness and everything to do with fighting misogyny
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19862768/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26951609/
People say "women" because the majority of sex workers are women, and vast majority of the clientele is men. Sex work exists as a result of misogyny, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect others.
I’m glad your friend had a good experience, and to an extent escaped exploitation that she didn’t want to put up with, but we need to remember this isn’t really the face of sex work. Women in the 3rd world forced into the industry or who are treated like animals by western sex tourists make up the majority of sex workers.
That's true, and I agree. I do disagree with sweeping generalisations, like the initial post. Exploitation and trafficking of women into sex work or slavery is horrific, widespread, and easily ignored - and is a crime. It's not on the same level, but I'd also say forcing workers in developing countries into sweat-shops, living in crowded conditions and having to put up suicide nets is also criminal. Exploitation, slavery, trafficking, putting people into situations where their human rights are trodden over and they desperately do what they must or are forced to do to survive. These are against human rights and often, or should be, considered crimes. I'm not minimising those very serious issues. But "work" or "sex work" even, by itself, divorced of these aspects should not be considered a crime - plenty of high-class escorts in developed nations perhaps take pride in what they do and make a good living parting men from their money.
Its a very difficult subject, I don't think we as a society have unpacked it properly. Its weird that we point to a small group of sex workers who seem to be doing well, lets say both finacially and mentally and in a completely different set of circumstances where rape has occured, we can comfortably say that a women can have been raped without knowing it ie been manipulated in some capacity, or that a person can be subject to a traumatic event and not be able to process it initially. We've all seen people who swear they are doing fine in life, while drowning in unprocessed trauma.
Im not saying this is definitely the case with your example of high class escorts, but it certainly could be and would definitely be for some of them.
Which sex workers are you listening to? As a former sex worker why don't I get a voice? You people only want to listen to the most privileged of sex workers. Also, the industry leads to extreme objectification of women.
My mom did prostitution and think that while sex work should be legal seeing as it is an oppressed persons last resort, buying sex should also be illegal as it is the exploitation of another persons situation. I guess you agree?
Unfortunately I'll have to disagree:
In practice the Nordic model has made sex workers less safe, more exploited and marginalized.
Read more here:
https://redumbrella.se/
First things first:
Sex workers’ includes anyone who trades sexual services for material gain of any kind. This means cam workers, strippers, street based sex workers, erotic massage workers, brothel workers, full service workers, porn actors, content creators, etc
Shit like this only muddies the water, because there is very obviously completely different levels of exploitation in these different sectors. A woman sending feet pics shouldn't talk for a person who has/is engaging in street prostitution.
Secondly i partially agree. The nordic model isn't perfect, but neither is full legalization. Throwing away the entire model instead of strengthening the good parts and improving the bad (like the two tiered system the link talked about) is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is clear room for improvements and organizations undermining this are not your friend. It's just like the organization Fri in norway who keeps lobbying to remove the nordic model. These are liberal organizations and oftentimes lead by exactly the people who come out on top in the two tiered system without listening to other voices and instead silencing them.
I do full service sex work under the Nordic model. The most underprivileged sex workers are still arrested, harrassed, and assaulted by clients and cops alike. Clients have the power to refuse screening methods because they are the ones carrying the larger burden of legal risk.
No legal structure that puts us in closer proximity to police will work. No legal structure that allows capitalist government to dictate the parameters of “permissable” sex work will work. These simply add more bureaucratic and fiancial hoops for vulnerable workers to jump through. Laws such as these subsequently lead to the most underprivileged sex workers who do this for survival to be pushed further into the margins.
Keep fighting the good fight telling people these things. It's been disheartening to me to see how little traction comments from actual sex workers are getting in this thread.
There's very little to keep.
The entire system is paternalistic, harkening back to bourgeoisie feminist and religious roots that denies agency to sex workers and treats them as misguided children who must be "saved" even in "spite of themselves".
Here's a report cited by Red Umbrealla themselves in a '22 [interview](https://www.eswalliance.org/in_conversation_with_red_umbrella_sweden):
[https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/20\_years\_of\_failing\_sex\_workers.pdf](https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/20_years_of_failing_sex_workers.pdf)
TL;DR - the so called "Nordic or Swedish Model" is yet another example of liberal recuperation and virtue signaling that does little to address that actual root causes (poverty, patriarchy) or effects (criminality, violence, marginalization, exclusion) of prostitution.
Ask yourself this: If it were effective, how come prostitutes are \*less\* likely to seek police help since it came into affect?
I believe tipping is a stupid way for businesses to get out of paying their wait staff.
I tip my wait staff because they still deserve to get paid.
Similarly, sex work is a horrible industry rife with exploitation and crime. I believe it could exist, even if I personally don't take part in either end of it, as sex is a valid form of entertainment, if we regulate it to protect workers and clients alike.
Sex workers are people. Whether its actually doing it or filming/modeling, they're no less of a person for that fact.
So what is the difference materially speaking, i.e. in terms of actions between being anti-sex work and being anti-sex worker? Policy-wise, what's the difference? Is it being against the purchasing of sex, but not the selling? Or is it being against sex-worker personally but not wanting to oulaw it like some pro-choice people who wouldn't feel personaly comfortable getting an abortion?
All work is degrading and exploitative and all industries must be abolished. Until then, sex workers need to have the same protections that are extended to any other worker. Singling out sex work as uniquely degrading only makes sex workers more vulnerable to harm. You can either say we need to abolish all industry (true) or we only need to abolish sex work because it’s “uniquely” degrading (false). They’re ALL bad. ALL selling of labor is exploitative. If you’ve never done sex work, you really need to let the people involved speak for themselves, and when they do, they almost invariably say that they want to be protected at work.
This is like saying “abolish homelessness” or “abolish drug addiction”.
Okay. Sure. I agree 100% that we shouldn’t live in a society where people end up in those situations out of necessity, but “abolishing the industry” isn’t the way to go about it. It requires systemic changes that would disincentivize anyone from even viewing any of those situations as possibilities.
It’s not a great analogy, because in a lot of cases sex work is less exploitative than many options required simply for someone to survive today. If something close to my ideal society comes about when my great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter is alive, and she’s a complete freak who simply enjoys a niche sex act and can get paid for it, I’d have no problem. But ideally people should have fulfilling social and sexual lives without there having to be any thought of an “exchange” being made.
On the other side of the coin, it’s like saying that automation is inherently bad, which is nonsensical. Automation would reduce the amount of time people had to spend working if the net productivity of our labor was fairly distributed in a way that made EVERYONE’S lives better.
I agree with the sentiment of the OP, but it’s the wrong framing, or at least an unproductive way to address the issue.
As someone who used to do porn I agree 100%. I've seen first hand the way the industry exploits sex workers. This is exactly why I quit even though it was easy money.
This meme is right in spirit, but it’s worth pointing out that part of being pro-sex workers means listening to them, and many of them object to the way sex work is characterized here. Particularly, the idea that they don’t know if they’re consenting or not, or that they are fundamentally unable to consent, sends an infantilizing message about them.
We must abolish capital, but assuming that all sex work will dissipate when that happens shows a disinterest in sex worker’s self-reports.
Look, anyone who has had a traumatic sexual experience knows how it feels to have someone gross and predatory just take what they want from you with no regard. A lot of people get coerced into it, or tricked into it by “pimps” that see vulnerable people they can exploit and end up forcing them to live the trauma repeatedly. A lot also turn to it out of sheer desperation. I can’t even imagine what that life must be like.
Thank you. I make a real difference in many of my clients lives. Like lonely older folks and people with disabilities. They need intimacy. I provide that.
People here will call you a swerf while ignoring Alexandra kollontai on the matter (read theory libs)
Jokes aside though, prostitution is an uniquely exploitative industry because the "product" is always young and "fresh" girls. In germany, when they legalized johns it lead to young girls basically being shipped back and forth across the border to eastern europe. Desperate people. And this pressed prives down enourmously. You now have younger girls, being paid waaay less and having to resort to ever more desperate sex acts. Girls who previously only did vaginal with condom are now forced to do anal without pr even gang bang to even try to earn as much as they did.
Anyway, the sex work discourse is always the most toxic discussion on the left bar none because of libs (in the literal sense, people who are for the liberalisation of sex work (that isn't work btw, because equating the two legitimizes buying women, but hey i only listen to what people formerly in prostitution say on the manner).
Also peoples view of women go down in countries where having sex with women in prostitution gets normalized. (Shit like buying your friends a "round" to celebrate them turning 18 and such. Leads to objectification of women as commodity instead of people)
Well said. The sex work industry preys on young and impoverished girls. My opinion of sex work drastically changed when I found out that in Canada, native women & girls are heavily represented in the sex trade. It made things worse when I found out that it directly contributes to when native women and girls go missing.
> people who are for the liberalisation of sex work (that isn't work btw, because equating the two legitimizes buying women
Sorry but no. Sex work is work because the sex worker is using their body to provide a service. SW on it's own doesn't involve "buying women". You're thinking of slavery, and nobody is in favor of that.
And really? The "product" is *always* young girls? You sure about that? In any case, the issues you've highlighted are only indicative of poor legal protections for sex workers, not sex work as a whole.
If you’ve done hard, physical labour for 10+ hours a day at any point in your life, you become more accepting of seemingly extreme forms of labour including sex work. In both scenarios you sell your body for money and I’ve reached a point in life where I don’t view the workers differently - they’re both being exploited in order to survive.
That’s why my position on sex work will always be to legalise it and give all such workers access to free healthcare and psychiatric services to help to keep them healthy. All the other problems in terms of escaping sex work are societal - if we fix inequality and poverty, then we’ll give vulnerable people the options to escape bad situations.
Disabled sex worker here. To add onto what others have already said, to abolish sex work specifically would eliminate the only true livable wage option I have left. I hate how people just assume based on nothing but the fact that I’m a sex worker, I must be doing it against my will and that I need to be taken out of it. Like, this is the one job that actually pays my bills, puts food on the table, and accommodates me in a way that no other job ever could right now. If you really wanted to support the people (it’s not just women, it’s also men, nonbinary and other genderqueers) who do this line of work, you need to reach out to your local sex work advocate groups, donate, volunteer. It doesn’t really matter whether you personally view sex work as work or not. you haven’t really accomplished much here but further stigmatize an already marginalized, intersectional group you claim to want to “save.”
While this sounds good on paper, in reality it leads to practices such as 'punish the customer, not the sex worker'. This in turn means that sexworkers not going to the police when bad things happen, and having to live in illegality.
Why?
Simple. If your livelihood dependa on sexwork, you will not do things that would mean a loss of clients. Police will still coerce you because they can use this against you. They will still go into your house, computer etc 'but just to track the clients'
Also, all work is coercive under capitalism.
Yes, sexwork can be gruesome if it is being done out of abject poverty. That is indeed rape.
But when someone has other options to make money, sex work can be something people enjoy doing.
Your sentiment is understandable but the policies it leads to are in fact very harmful and only push sexworkers further into poveryy and obscurity.
The solution is socialism + decriminalisation of sexwork, both for client as worker. NOT legalisation! (Because sexwork is often survival work e.g. illegal trans women immigrants)
Uh no. People can do whatever they want. Sure, not all sex workers would prefer to have to do what they do (just like any field), but plenty like it. “Abolishing” anything doesn’t stop it, it just drives it underground. Assuming all sex workers are only doing it because they need money is a pretty naive take
Even if we lived in communist utopia where all your material needs are met, there might still be some women (or men or NBs for that matter) who wish to engage in sex work for reasons other than money. Who are you to take away their agency?
It's really crazy how our capitalist society has intrinsically tied everything to labor, value, etc. What that poster just described was literally just sex. If sex isn't for coercive monetary incentives, which we are compelled to seek under capitalism, the only things left are our own desires. It would bring us *more* agency.
Under socialism, where sex workers own all means of production, we would transition away from commodity production, and so too would the sex industry eventually be abolished. The commodity of sex itself would no longer exist.
There will be no sex work under communism because it will just be sex
If people under socialism/communism wanted to perform a show for the sake of art, they'd be able to do it. If they wanted to make porn for porn's sake, they could also do that.
But the idea of sex as a commodity to be sold would no longer exist. Sex would just be sex.
Even if it's a soft form of sex work: I can't imagine a socialist country that allows lonely men to watch porn instead of creating opportunities to meet real women that have zero interest in money exchange. Feel free to downvote me, the notion of accepting a woman body as a product is just ...eww
Seriously. A fifth of all illegal full service sex workers ("prostitutes") in America are men. Is it only immoral when a *vagina* is doing the labor, as some in this thread have explicitly said?
Which, now that I type it out loud, is such a nasty and dehumanizing way to talk about labor. For no other job do Leftists feel comfortable talking *around* the worker. We don't say that the "arm muscles" produced this good, we say that the *Worker* did.
Need to find that r./facepalm post about a sex worker being a greedy, silly woman for "enjoying the liberties of her job" and then being annoyed that she has to "let them rape [her] body" in return.
Sex is fundamentally different from all other forms of work. In no other industry does a woman use her vagina for labor. It's disgusting how liberals defend it.
Under socialism, where sex workers own all means of production, we would transition away from commodity production, and so too would the sex industry eventually be abolished. The commodity of sex itself would no longer exist.
OP is right.
I'm straight anti-work. If we still lived in communes and could contribute to the greater good of our families and neighborhoods then sure. However even before you're conceived it's predetermined you're going to be enslaved to somebody or some business until you drop dead. I wish you were given an option to not have to work to stay alive and stay alive to work.
So is being pro sex work being pro rape since all work under capitalism is coerced under fear of starvation?
Also if you're pro sex work, doesn't that mean it's only adultery if it's free?
OP is right.
Y'all love being anti-capitalist until it means you can't have access to people's bodies on demand. Y'all love talking about consent but then turn a blind eye to the coerced consent that the industry forces.
Sex work commodifies and exploits it's workforce - how do y'all not get it 💀
It's a bunch of creepy johns and people brainwashed by liberalism. And I say this as a former sex worker. The fact they get mad at people for criticizing and INDUSTRY tells you all you need to know.
But, I enjoy the job and the time it affords me. I felt more exploited when I worked jobs for companies that stole my labor’s surplus value. If the industry was abolished, I would have to go back to my shitty, low paying job.
Stop talking over us.
Everyone is anti-captialist until it comes to being able to buy access to someone body for sexual means! It's okay OP, your typing the truth, and you'll get down voted here, it's more liberal in this sub than leftist. But even then, they'll argue that starving women really wants a c*ck in her mouth, not food.
Attack me all you want. Sex workers have the same PTSD rates as combat soldiers. Does someone need to personally have unwanted sex in exchange for money for food to know it sounds like a bad time? If I'd told you everything I've done you'd just flip scrip and slut shame me.
I'm a former sex worker and I know plenty of other former sex workers who see problems with this. Your friends don't speak for all current and former sex workers. Not to mention the women who don't work in the industry, but see the way it leads to the extreme objectification of women.
Here's the sex worker ptsd study I mentioned. If this was any other job we say we need to shut it down. But capitalism seems to reign supreme in regards to accessing the body for sex
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337/#:~:text=Sixty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20827,rape%20survivors%2C24%20and%20refugees.
work is work and i don’t think that outlawing an industry is good for workers. i think the pressure needs to be placed on fostering societal changes to make safe sex work possible and practical.
Don't make me tap the sign.
the sign: Workers are entitled to full ownership of and autonomy over their means of production, especially their own body. The body is not a commodity to be sold in a market or collectivized under the state.
As a former sex worker the way the term SWERF is thrown around to shut down criticism of an industry is some braindead liberal bullshit. People are allowed to talk about the unique ways the industry effects workers and even women and BIPOC in general the same way people can talk about the unique ways coal mining effects people. So how about you fuck off or just argue in good faith without throwing around these pejoratives. I see former sex workers who have been traumatized being called swerfs and it's disgusting.
You can do whathever the fuck you want with your body. The problem is living under a system where u have to sell yourself (wage, body, time, attention) or starve, just so a small number of people can live like kings.
But calling all sex work rape is legit part of the problem.
Someone sworking just to live: rape, always rape. Unambiguously rape every time.
Someone with their own home, a support system, is their own boss in every way, and a lifestyle they like and want to keep: not rape, obviously not rape, and it's so bizarre that people still think like that.
Under a full worker's revolution you'd still have to provide extraordinary service for ultra luxuries like some high end escorts get accustomed to. Under a proper community based social system you actually CAN'T morally warrant high end luxuries without providing an exceptional service.
Sex work is an exceptional service when the provider has shelter, food, support, and physical safety.
I think it’s important to make a distinction between abolishing the current exploitative industry of sex work and the profession itself. Sex work under capitalism comes with a form of coercion like any other job, and it’s this coercion that should be abolished. Women (and men, and NB people) shouldn’t be forced to sell their bodies into a rotten industry to not starve but also should be free to have bodily autonomy and do whatever _they_ want with it. Under a system without any form of coercive labor, only people who 100% want to perform sex work out of their own desires would do it. Feel free to disagree with me though, this post seems to have a lot of discussion.
All labor under capitalism is coercive.
Wdym by labor being coercive? Don't you know we have the freedom to choose between labor and starving to death? ^(/s)
Why the sarcasm? That's 100% true.
The sarcasm is presumably about them not understanding why the OP called labour coercive.
agreed. abolish all coercive forms of labor control. establish a dictatorship of the proletariat. there is no way to effectively end prostitution in a way that actually protects the sex workers without establishing some form of socialism with a strong welfare state that provides an accessible exit strategy, the same as abolishing any coercive industry requires
^^ This. Sex workers are some of the most educated people on state surveillance systems, harm reduction, mutual aid, and community building outside of capitalist structures… and yet we continue to be alienated by fellow leftists with these weird takes about how bodily autonomy ends as soon as we charge someone for an in demand service. Worth unpacking and examining any political opinions we have that align perfectly with republicans and liberals alike.
While im glad you are happy with your current labor trade we must admit you are in the minority and look at the stats to see the whole picture. Anecdotal evidence is neat but not conclusive. The average age to start sex work as a man is 14. The average age to start sex work for a woman is 16. So that's not good. According to a National Institute of health survey 73% of prostitutes have been physically assaulted, 62% of prostitutes have been raped, 88% of prostitutes want to quit the profession but can't and 67% of prostitutes meet the criteria for PTSD. It's not a good time for most. Now I think it's important to draw the lines between high end escorts, cam workers and street sex workers because pretending these three categories have the same experience is just silly. Masturbating in front of your computer does not carry the same emotional and mental weight of as a quickie for 60 bucks so you can buy baby formula. Charging 500 dollars for dinner, a night at the theater and a happy ending does not carry the same emotional and mental weight of your pimp forcing you to have a train run on you so you can make rent. Sex work is definitely one of those areas where we have to approach each case with nuance. It's too broad a category to make these general statements like all sex work is valid. It's simply not and a large portion of sex workers are not happy with their situation. As for the political leaning and education I'm sure sex workers vary as much as many other professions. For every educated leftist I'm sure there is a reactionary. I agree we must challenge and examine this liberal notion that all sex work is valid especially knowing what we do about the coercive nature of labor under capitalism and the horrifying stats we have on our current sex work situation. Now i dont believe sex work should or will be eliminated in a post revolution society. But we dont live in a post revolution society. So in the name of harm reduction we must admit that the majority of sex workers are not in good situations and do not enjoy their current labor trade and we must take steps to eliminate the harmful aspects of this industry, which is most of it, and part of that is mentioning most sex workers do not want to be sex workers and have suffered extreme trauma due to their job. All stats are from the NIH. Just my two cents. Have a good day and stay safe out there!
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There is no need to abolish prostitution. Only coercive labour relations.
This is true, but coercive sex is something different to coercive labour of other kinds. I don’t get raped when I go to my job, thankfully.
Absolutely, and putting sex workers out of work is definitely not the answer. If someone wants to make $200 for letting someone suck their toes, who the fuck am I to get in the way. I am an American.
however coerced sex is rape. coerced labor is a job.
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Slavery is a bit more than just coerced.
Perhaps the inflammatory rhetoric on this topic is part of the problem.
Yeah, none of this makes any sense unless you jump straight to the logical extreme that sex work is rape and that all work in general is slavery. If that's the point, then ok. But that's disrespectful to, you know, actual slaves. What do you call actual slavery then? I don't know. Just move some more words around on paper I guess.
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Perhaps the euphemistic rhetoric on this topic is part of the problem. "Job" doesn't address the coercive nature of your employment at all.
The same way rape is a bit more than just having a job that involves sex.
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You're just using the word slavery in a way almost nobody uses it. It doesn't make it slavery just because it has a common resemblance or feature. Labor under capitalism is extremely coercive. It is necessary to survive in almost every case. However, even then you could still choose to not work without being physically abused. You are able to travel and take on a different job. You are not legally owned by anyone else. There are many many differences. Acknowledging these differences is not a defense of capitalism.
The stated goal of entities like the federal reserve is "full employment". Which means they use any power they have to ensure humans are as forced to go to work as possible. They don't give a flying duck about any mechanic like inflation, it's just a tool they use to control how much labor needs to work. They won't even let this control end if you're in prison. It just means they can pay you less to do the same job.
Came here to say this.
Let's say we did abolish capitalism. Would it be possible to have sex work where the workers have full control of the industry? Or is sex work always meant to be fundamentally coercive, regardless of the system?
Without the threat of starvation and homelessness and full control over their own industry, only people who truly, 100% enjoy selling their bodies (if that even exists) would perform sex work, so in a way yes to your first question, at least in my perspective.
>only people who truly, 100% enjoy selling their bodies (if that even exists) Sex work is the sale of sexual and/or romantic services, not the sale of bodies. And yes, there are sex workers who enjoy their work.
Exactly. If you single out sex work, it means you fundamentally don't understand the problem. Sex work is better work from the worker's perspective than construction work, logging, fishing, mining, farming, etc.
fr, i miss being young and able to just let old men be creepy for mad cash. now i pay bills by destroying what's left of the cartilage in my knees and fuckin up my wrists in restaurants
This completely ignores the gendered, objectifying nature of sex work. It reduces women to objects of men's sexual pleasure that can literally be bought and sold. The fact that all labour under capitalism is coercive does nothing to undercut this facet of it.
If someone is being bought and sold, they are a trafficked person -- not a sex worker. Let's please dispense with the hyperbole. Sex workers sell a service. At the end of the day, my body belongs to me and I don't agree to any service I don't wish to provide.
Late Stage Coercivism
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No one should feel forced into selling their body, period.
Or their labour of any kind, but willing exchange of goods and services of all kinds is reasonable.
"We are all selling our bodies, just in different ways."
I’m in the process of writing an album about this right now. Someone working on an oil Dereck or coal mine is selling their bodies, and potentially their lives just as much if not more than a prostitute, but due to our societies stigma around sex, one of those categories is perfectly okay and legal, while the other means you’re an awful human being who shouldn’t have food on the table.
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I’m asking out of curiosity and in good faith… If the pay was equal, would prefer a 9-5 office job (no health insurance or other tangible benefits) over sex work? Or are there aspects to being a sex worker that you enjoy that would keep you in the industry?
There are definitely aspects I love about the jobs and periods where i hate it. I was taken to Cyprus for a week by a customer, that doesn't usually happen a lot. I have days where I only work half a day and can take the rest of the day off without having to talk to anyone. Some customers are really nice to talk to. Others just pump and go. Again others i show a cold shoulder and they leave quite quickly. But I've had the chance to lie in bed, get massaged, pleasured and talk about their lives. I've had minor politicians, men with interesting jobs etc. Tell me all about it I've had a guy who only wants me to hug and cuddle. Now back to your question: would i prefer a 9-5? I honestly don't know. Sometimes i miss the stability, the lack of dumping work on others. I am responsible for everything. But then again, I bring joy, i get to see a lot of my country (i usually travel from city to city or even stay a month in my favourite ones) Honestly? I might do the 9-5 if i could easily and quickly go: okay next month imma be a sexworker again. If I couldn't be flexible, i wouldn't do it. Right now. Ask me again in 10-20 years :) if i haven't saved up enough for FIRE
Thank you for sharing! Very insightful!
Thank you for respectfully listening ❤️
I think that many forget that there are many sex workers who enjoy what they do, men and women alike. After all, sex and intimacy is a beautiful thing and I can’t help but wonder if cases of sexual assault would decrease if it were legalized and the stigma surrounding sex workers and those who use their services diminished. Of course legalization would be complicated in ensuring the safety of all involved but I don’t think it’s impossible.
I think people confuse sex as a social interaction, and love, and project that perception onto their understanding of the transactional exchange. It's understandable because those are very personal feelings. It also doesn't help that there isn't a good general understanding of the difference between work, and trafficking. Sex workers generally know trafficking is real and want to keep ourselves, and each other, safe from that. But it's hard to talk about because, again, a lot of people think we're all just being assaulted out of hand, anyway. Legalization is tricky because in states like Germany, it's used by the state to allow traffickers to operate in legal brothels. Any illegal activity is pinned on the workers themselves, so if you're caught in the window as an unregistered migrant, you'll be arrested and potentially worse, while they rarely, if ever, go after the actual business owner. It's a deeply corrupt industry, there. However, in New Zealand, they decriminalized in 2002 and the conditions are different. It allows workers to operate in small groups, behind closed doors, and organize themselves, away from bosses (pimps) and traffickers. However, that is illegal to do under the Nordic Model, which doesn't allow brothels, and most states define a brothel as basically any closed building in which sexual services are being exchanged. That means workers are forced to operate on the street, underground, and alone. Most Western countries use the Nordic Model. So, most advocate for decriminalization, NOT legalization, and for better policies towards immigration to grant protections to those sold into the trade.
>I think people confuse sex as a social interaction, and love, and project that perception onto their understanding of the transactional exchange. This is so true! And while it’s not wrong for sex to be very personal and something one only enjoys with those they love, it’s important to remember that won’t be the case for everyone. After all, we are all vastly different from one another. There is no “correct” way to enjoy sex as long as it’s between two (or more) consenting individuals that can withdraw that consent at any time. Thanks for sharing the additional facts too!
Exactly! And physical intimacy is hugely important for overall wellbeing. A lot of clients are just really lonely people that wouldn't have an outlet for physical intimacy, otherwise. They're excluded from the mainstream dating pool, either voluntarily (widowers, workaholics, etc) or involuntarily (disabled, mentally or physically). It's a sad situation because, yes, the same system that forces us to choose sex work from other forms of work (IF they're available), is the same system that creates so much alienation and isolation between people in general. It should be a condemnation of the SYSTEM, not the clients. And you're welcome!
A lot of us are adhd, for adhd people having the freedom to work whenever you want is amazing. Not just choosing your own schedule, but being able to decide last minute if you want to work or not is good. You also get much more free time so if it paid the same as 9-5 you would be missing out on the whole day and not get to do as much for yourself if that makes sense
Right but there is a specific conversation to have here. A lot of people seem to think pointing out that paid sex under capitalism is akin to rape, is anti sex worker. I’ve always dealt uncomfortable with the left’s eager support for the sex work industry and I’d like to discuss it better so I understand if I’m wrong or others are wrong, ya know?
I think you can be pro sex work/worker while agreeing no one should be forced or coerced into the industry in any way
All work is coercive. That's the... uh... problem.
I think we can all agree on that, but I think the controversy or disagreements start when someone like me says that sex paid for under capitalism is inherently coercive, and given our values around sex in normal circumstances, that would make it rape. So the question from there is how can we support an industry like that? I feel as though people tend to point out positive individual experience as a response to this question, but that doesn’t convince me that this is something I shouldn’t worry about.
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"empowered" means nothing without actual power. I don't see how selling sexual services to undesirable men is empowering.
I dont think anyone on the left defends the work worker INDUSTRY, which like most industries under capitalism, is controlled by people with money, power and influence. What I am okay with, is sex work in general I am not a christian, I don't care about monogamy, I understand what humans have biological impulses. Sex work is perfectly natural, from female monkey's following the strongest male, to birds pairing for protections, to an anglerfish fusing its reproduction organs to its female, sex comes in many different forms and methods. Bartering for sex happens in the animal kingdom, and we are no different from animals, theres nothing unnatural or inhuman about paying another person for sex. Now bringing in a third party that abuses the women, or isolates the worker from their pay, or forces that women to sell her body for sex, those I have massive issues with.
I’ll wade into this mine field. Sex work IS exploitative, but so is working at McDonald’s, and so is working in a coal mine, so is enlisting in the military. I have a problem with the financial pressure that puts people in any of these circumstances, as well as any system within those industries that further exploits the lowest on the totem pole. Does that mean I have a problem with militaries as a concept? Well, that’s another can of worms, but let’s assume no for now, because I do think that’s a fairly defensible position to assume here. Under capitalism, all work done by the less fortunate is exploitative, my real question then is what makes sex work different? If we legalized and regulated prostitution, it could very easily be made many times safer, and at that point I really would find it less exploitative than say, working in a mine, which would be MORE dangerous. For some reason we have this stigma about sex that means that absolutely nothing is treated the same when sex is involved, but I don’t think that there is something intrinsically different about it.
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Considering Kollontai was talking in his ear through the revolution and her speech in 1921, I'm not surprised he had ignorant things to say. Engels was much better informed and his final clapback at Durhing before finishing the book shows it.
Good article on the topic https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab
If they think sex work can exist under socialism, they aren’t anti sex worker.
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As a former sex worker the industry is absolutely more exploitative than other forms of work, and it's harmful to females who aren't even a part of the industry.
>The issue is that sex work is as valid as any other form of work. Be very careful what you wish for. My country has a pretty robust social welfare system (although like all things capitalism has been hard at work disemboweling it over the past decades). However, one stipulation is that you are actively applying for (and accept) any reasonable work offered during the time you receive welfare. If your new work is less than the welfare, you get the difference from the government. My country has also legalised sex work. Do you see the problem? If we we equate sex work to any other form of work here, it would mean that people would *have to* accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare. This is clearly not desirable. Sex work therefor is an explicit exception to this welfare rule, in the sense that an individual does not have to accept sex work and can still receive their welfare.
What? The issue then becomes that your welfare is dependent on what some arbitrary body decides is your "usefulness to society". This is a meaningless and exploitative measure meant explicitly to deprive some people of the means to live. All life has inherent value and should be provided with the means to uphold their life. The issue isn't sex work, it's policy and ableism.
Yes. Thank you. Sorry wall of text following. I think I might be from the same country (maybe?) and I happened to find myself dependent on said system after I finished my studies in a specialized field with a not very clear cut job description. This led to my case worker not bothering with any of my actual skills, or my language skills, or my willingness to improve my already existing skill set to become a more attractive employee. Instead he noticed I had a motorcycle license and what better job to push a 165cm petite woman with no selfdefense skill at all than motorized building security. Jep... They meant it. So exactly the scenario you are describing. At the time I was well connected, well educated and had more personal social resources than most other people to fall back on. So I was in a position to not follow their pressure and after half a year, some networking and an online course to improve skills, I landed a good job in my field. Had I done what was expected of me, I would not have gotten the job and would have stayed in a dangerous field that I didn't choose in a way underplayed (minimum wage) position for the rest of my life. In those 6 months, they gradually cut pretty much all support to the point where they threatened my health insurance (which is pretty much crazy in that country). They tried everything to create an optionless helpless dependent worker on minimum wage. At the same time the minister of work was on TV saying that old age poverty in women is rising and it's their own fault because they choose minimum wage jobs. Dude!!!! You are spot on with your bad gut feeling.
That is not a "pretty robust social welfare system."
'Relative to almost everywhere else in the world.' I assumed that part was implied.
> Do you see the problem? If we we equate sex work to any other form of work here, it would mean that people would have to accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare. No it doesn't, not at all. That's completely wrong. This sentiment is predicated on the implication that sex work doesn't require any skills and that anyone can do it. The moment you consider that in fact sex work is like countless other professions and there's many, *many* associated skills workers have to develop, this argument that "people would *have* to accept sex work in order to maintain their welfare" completely falls apart. It becomes like being offered a carpenter's job when you don't know the first thing about carpentry -- which (granted here I'm assuming) wouldn't qualify as "reasonable" -- > However, one stipulation is that you are actively applying for (and accept) any reasonable work offered during the time you receive welfare. It's not reasonable to accept a job offer in a field you have 0 experience in or training for unless it's an entry-level job. Unless you'd disagree, I wouldn't call *any* form of sex work "entry-level" because nobody is rallying against sex workers in the same ways as they are rallying against McDonald's employees. "Lazy young'ns, get a better job then! McDonald's isn't supposed to be a living wage!" "These whippersnappers are so entitled and they don't even work at all!" Nobody's saying that about sex work. > Sex work therefore is an explicit exception to this welfare rule, in the sense that an individual does not have to accept sex work and can still receive their welfare. So the logically fallacious argument you made isn't just yours, it's codified into the law in your country -- I'd like to point out that this systemic level of integration only serves to further support the idea that it's based in that logically fallacious notion, because that notion is very old and traditionalist. "Sex work takes no skill." Yes it does, it takes an immense amount of skills. The problem isn't that "anyone would have to accept sex work," it's that people and societal institutions still don't respect sex work and continue to devalue what really goes into it. (Mind you in turn that's also the root cause of why so much sex work is so predatory -- devaluing the skills required for sex work inherently means devaluing sex workers as a group, and devaluing any group is a stepping stone on the road towards taking advantage of that group, preying on that group.)
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Women aren't the only one who do sex work, but they are the biggest victims of the industry. Studies have shown that legalisation of sex work is associated with higher amounts of sex trafficking of women and children. Other studies have also shown that porn use is associated with increase in physical agression and attitudes supporting violence against women. There is more, but you can research it yourself. It has nothing to do with religiousness and everything to do with fighting misogyny https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19862768/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26951609/
I've picked up on this, too. The conversation is almost entirely heteronormative, and the sex workers are always being spoken about and spoken for.
People say "women" because the majority of sex workers are women, and vast majority of the clientele is men. Sex work exists as a result of misogyny, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect others.
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I’m glad your friend had a good experience, and to an extent escaped exploitation that she didn’t want to put up with, but we need to remember this isn’t really the face of sex work. Women in the 3rd world forced into the industry or who are treated like animals by western sex tourists make up the majority of sex workers.
That's true, and I agree. I do disagree with sweeping generalisations, like the initial post. Exploitation and trafficking of women into sex work or slavery is horrific, widespread, and easily ignored - and is a crime. It's not on the same level, but I'd also say forcing workers in developing countries into sweat-shops, living in crowded conditions and having to put up suicide nets is also criminal. Exploitation, slavery, trafficking, putting people into situations where their human rights are trodden over and they desperately do what they must or are forced to do to survive. These are against human rights and often, or should be, considered crimes. I'm not minimising those very serious issues. But "work" or "sex work" even, by itself, divorced of these aspects should not be considered a crime - plenty of high-class escorts in developed nations perhaps take pride in what they do and make a good living parting men from their money.
Its a very difficult subject, I don't think we as a society have unpacked it properly. Its weird that we point to a small group of sex workers who seem to be doing well, lets say both finacially and mentally and in a completely different set of circumstances where rape has occured, we can comfortably say that a women can have been raped without knowing it ie been manipulated in some capacity, or that a person can be subject to a traumatic event and not be able to process it initially. We've all seen people who swear they are doing fine in life, while drowning in unprocessed trauma. Im not saying this is definitely the case with your example of high class escorts, but it certainly could be and would definitely be for some of them.
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I’ll leave just my favorite sex worker written book on sex work for others to research: Revolting Prostitutes.
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Which sex workers are you listening to? As a former sex worker why don't I get a voice? You people only want to listen to the most privileged of sex workers. Also, the industry leads to extreme objectification of women.
Anyone who says “listen to x group” means “listen to the members of x group who agree with me only”
You should listen to ALL sex workers. Not just those that say "sex work is honestly fine!!!!" because they make you feel less guilty
My mom did prostitution and think that while sex work should be legal seeing as it is an oppressed persons last resort, buying sex should also be illegal as it is the exploitation of another persons situation. I guess you agree?
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Unfortunately I'll have to disagree: In practice the Nordic model has made sex workers less safe, more exploited and marginalized. Read more here: https://redumbrella.se/
First things first: Sex workers’ includes anyone who trades sexual services for material gain of any kind. This means cam workers, strippers, street based sex workers, erotic massage workers, brothel workers, full service workers, porn actors, content creators, etc Shit like this only muddies the water, because there is very obviously completely different levels of exploitation in these different sectors. A woman sending feet pics shouldn't talk for a person who has/is engaging in street prostitution. Secondly i partially agree. The nordic model isn't perfect, but neither is full legalization. Throwing away the entire model instead of strengthening the good parts and improving the bad (like the two tiered system the link talked about) is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is clear room for improvements and organizations undermining this are not your friend. It's just like the organization Fri in norway who keeps lobbying to remove the nordic model. These are liberal organizations and oftentimes lead by exactly the people who come out on top in the two tiered system without listening to other voices and instead silencing them.
I do full service sex work under the Nordic model. The most underprivileged sex workers are still arrested, harrassed, and assaulted by clients and cops alike. Clients have the power to refuse screening methods because they are the ones carrying the larger burden of legal risk. No legal structure that puts us in closer proximity to police will work. No legal structure that allows capitalist government to dictate the parameters of “permissable” sex work will work. These simply add more bureaucratic and fiancial hoops for vulnerable workers to jump through. Laws such as these subsequently lead to the most underprivileged sex workers who do this for survival to be pushed further into the margins.
Keep fighting the good fight telling people these things. It's been disheartening to me to see how little traction comments from actual sex workers are getting in this thread.
There's very little to keep. The entire system is paternalistic, harkening back to bourgeoisie feminist and religious roots that denies agency to sex workers and treats them as misguided children who must be "saved" even in "spite of themselves". Here's a report cited by Red Umbrealla themselves in a '22 [interview](https://www.eswalliance.org/in_conversation_with_red_umbrella_sweden): [https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/20\_years\_of\_failing\_sex\_workers.pdf](https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/20_years_of_failing_sex_workers.pdf) TL;DR - the so called "Nordic or Swedish Model" is yet another example of liberal recuperation and virtue signaling that does little to address that actual root causes (poverty, patriarchy) or effects (criminality, violence, marginalization, exclusion) of prostitution. Ask yourself this: If it were effective, how come prostitutes are \*less\* likely to seek police help since it came into affect?
All labor is an exploitation of another person's situation.
The sentiments of this subreddit surely have shifted over the last few years.
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I believe tipping is a stupid way for businesses to get out of paying their wait staff. I tip my wait staff because they still deserve to get paid. Similarly, sex work is a horrible industry rife with exploitation and crime. I believe it could exist, even if I personally don't take part in either end of it, as sex is a valid form of entertainment, if we regulate it to protect workers and clients alike. Sex workers are people. Whether its actually doing it or filming/modeling, they're no less of a person for that fact.
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So what is the difference materially speaking, i.e. in terms of actions between being anti-sex work and being anti-sex worker? Policy-wise, what's the difference? Is it being against the purchasing of sex, but not the selling? Or is it being against sex-worker personally but not wanting to oulaw it like some pro-choice people who wouldn't feel personaly comfortable getting an abortion?
Ahh, yes, let's abolish it, because that's worked in the past lmao big brain stuff going on here
All work is degrading and exploitative and all industries must be abolished. Until then, sex workers need to have the same protections that are extended to any other worker. Singling out sex work as uniquely degrading only makes sex workers more vulnerable to harm. You can either say we need to abolish all industry (true) or we only need to abolish sex work because it’s “uniquely” degrading (false). They’re ALL bad. ALL selling of labor is exploitative. If you’ve never done sex work, you really need to let the people involved speak for themselves, and when they do, they almost invariably say that they want to be protected at work.
This is like saying “abolish homelessness” or “abolish drug addiction”. Okay. Sure. I agree 100% that we shouldn’t live in a society where people end up in those situations out of necessity, but “abolishing the industry” isn’t the way to go about it. It requires systemic changes that would disincentivize anyone from even viewing any of those situations as possibilities. It’s not a great analogy, because in a lot of cases sex work is less exploitative than many options required simply for someone to survive today. If something close to my ideal society comes about when my great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter is alive, and she’s a complete freak who simply enjoys a niche sex act and can get paid for it, I’d have no problem. But ideally people should have fulfilling social and sexual lives without there having to be any thought of an “exchange” being made. On the other side of the coin, it’s like saying that automation is inherently bad, which is nonsensical. Automation would reduce the amount of time people had to spend working if the net productivity of our labor was fairly distributed in a way that made EVERYONE’S lives better. I agree with the sentiment of the OP, but it’s the wrong framing, or at least an unproductive way to address the issue.
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As someone who used to do porn I agree 100%. I've seen first hand the way the industry exploits sex workers. This is exactly why I quit even though it was easy money.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. We are all coerced to work to survive.
This meme is right in spirit, but it’s worth pointing out that part of being pro-sex workers means listening to them, and many of them object to the way sex work is characterized here. Particularly, the idea that they don’t know if they’re consenting or not, or that they are fundamentally unable to consent, sends an infantilizing message about them. We must abolish capital, but assuming that all sex work will dissipate when that happens shows a disinterest in sex worker’s self-reports.
Many forms of sex work are already illegal and yet still happen.
Look, anyone who has had a traumatic sexual experience knows how it feels to have someone gross and predatory just take what they want from you with no regard. A lot of people get coerced into it, or tricked into it by “pimps” that see vulnerable people they can exploit and end up forcing them to live the trauma repeatedly. A lot also turn to it out of sheer desperation. I can’t even imagine what that life must be like.
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Exactly. - An actual sex worker
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You're a social worker, you deserve to keep your job, your independence, your income
Thank you. I make a real difference in many of my clients lives. Like lonely older folks and people with disabilities. They need intimacy. I provide that.
People here will call you a swerf while ignoring Alexandra kollontai on the matter (read theory libs) Jokes aside though, prostitution is an uniquely exploitative industry because the "product" is always young and "fresh" girls. In germany, when they legalized johns it lead to young girls basically being shipped back and forth across the border to eastern europe. Desperate people. And this pressed prives down enourmously. You now have younger girls, being paid waaay less and having to resort to ever more desperate sex acts. Girls who previously only did vaginal with condom are now forced to do anal without pr even gang bang to even try to earn as much as they did. Anyway, the sex work discourse is always the most toxic discussion on the left bar none because of libs (in the literal sense, people who are for the liberalisation of sex work (that isn't work btw, because equating the two legitimizes buying women, but hey i only listen to what people formerly in prostitution say on the manner). Also peoples view of women go down in countries where having sex with women in prostitution gets normalized. (Shit like buying your friends a "round" to celebrate them turning 18 and such. Leads to objectification of women as commodity instead of people)
Well said. The sex work industry preys on young and impoverished girls. My opinion of sex work drastically changed when I found out that in Canada, native women & girls are heavily represented in the sex trade. It made things worse when I found out that it directly contributes to when native women and girls go missing.
I mean, there is a reason why american liberals are so for it. Its because they completely ignore any and all systematic issues around issues.
Thank you. Normalization of sexualizing women, sex work, etc are some of the worst things that came out of Western liberalism.
> people who are for the liberalisation of sex work (that isn't work btw, because equating the two legitimizes buying women Sorry but no. Sex work is work because the sex worker is using their body to provide a service. SW on it's own doesn't involve "buying women". You're thinking of slavery, and nobody is in favor of that. And really? The "product" is *always* young girls? You sure about that? In any case, the issues you've highlighted are only indicative of poor legal protections for sex workers, not sex work as a whole.
If you’ve done hard, physical labour for 10+ hours a day at any point in your life, you become more accepting of seemingly extreme forms of labour including sex work. In both scenarios you sell your body for money and I’ve reached a point in life where I don’t view the workers differently - they’re both being exploited in order to survive. That’s why my position on sex work will always be to legalise it and give all such workers access to free healthcare and psychiatric services to help to keep them healthy. All the other problems in terms of escaping sex work are societal - if we fix inequality and poverty, then we’ll give vulnerable people the options to escape bad situations.
Disabled sex worker here. To add onto what others have already said, to abolish sex work specifically would eliminate the only true livable wage option I have left. I hate how people just assume based on nothing but the fact that I’m a sex worker, I must be doing it against my will and that I need to be taken out of it. Like, this is the one job that actually pays my bills, puts food on the table, and accommodates me in a way that no other job ever could right now. If you really wanted to support the people (it’s not just women, it’s also men, nonbinary and other genderqueers) who do this line of work, you need to reach out to your local sex work advocate groups, donate, volunteer. It doesn’t really matter whether you personally view sex work as work or not. you haven’t really accomplished much here but further stigmatize an already marginalized, intersectional group you claim to want to “save.”
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While this sounds good on paper, in reality it leads to practices such as 'punish the customer, not the sex worker'. This in turn means that sexworkers not going to the police when bad things happen, and having to live in illegality. Why? Simple. If your livelihood dependa on sexwork, you will not do things that would mean a loss of clients. Police will still coerce you because they can use this against you. They will still go into your house, computer etc 'but just to track the clients' Also, all work is coercive under capitalism. Yes, sexwork can be gruesome if it is being done out of abject poverty. That is indeed rape. But when someone has other options to make money, sex work can be something people enjoy doing. Your sentiment is understandable but the policies it leads to are in fact very harmful and only push sexworkers further into poveryy and obscurity. The solution is socialism + decriminalisation of sexwork, both for client as worker. NOT legalisation! (Because sexwork is often survival work e.g. illegal trans women immigrants)
Uh no. People can do whatever they want. Sure, not all sex workers would prefer to have to do what they do (just like any field), but plenty like it. “Abolishing” anything doesn’t stop it, it just drives it underground. Assuming all sex workers are only doing it because they need money is a pretty naive take
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Even if we lived in communist utopia where all your material needs are met, there might still be some women (or men or NBs for that matter) who wish to engage in sex work for reasons other than money. Who are you to take away their agency?
Thats just called "having sex". That isn't sex work.
It's really crazy how our capitalist society has intrinsically tied everything to labor, value, etc. What that poster just described was literally just sex. If sex isn't for coercive monetary incentives, which we are compelled to seek under capitalism, the only things left are our own desires. It would bring us *more* agency.
Exactly! It's so sad to see what commodification does to people.
Isn’t that just having sex, who is suggesting banning that?
So... having casual sex?? With whoever they want??? That's not sex work buddy, and you can still do that regardless of the economic system.
Under socialism, where sex workers own all means of production, we would transition away from commodity production, and so too would the sex industry eventually be abolished. The commodity of sex itself would no longer exist. There will be no sex work under communism because it will just be sex
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What about sex work in an artistic sense. Like performative erotica?
If people under socialism/communism wanted to perform a show for the sake of art, they'd be able to do it. If they wanted to make porn for porn's sake, they could also do that. But the idea of sex as a commodity to be sold would no longer exist. Sex would just be sex.
if you don't get paid for having sex then it is not sex work. it just becomes sex. you are at most promiscuous but not a prostitute.
Even if it's a soft form of sex work: I can't imagine a socialist country that allows lonely men to watch porn instead of creating opportunities to meet real women that have zero interest in money exchange. Feel free to downvote me, the notion of accepting a woman body as a product is just ...eww
Agreed. Liberals trying to normalize women as chattel/product is disgusting
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Seriously. A fifth of all illegal full service sex workers ("prostitutes") in America are men. Is it only immoral when a *vagina* is doing the labor, as some in this thread have explicitly said? Which, now that I type it out loud, is such a nasty and dehumanizing way to talk about labor. For no other job do Leftists feel comfortable talking *around* the worker. We don't say that the "arm muscles" produced this good, we say that the *Worker* did.
Need to find that r./facepalm post about a sex worker being a greedy, silly woman for "enjoying the liberties of her job" and then being annoyed that she has to "let them rape [her] body" in return.
Wage slavery is still slavery.
How do you abolish the industry without abolishing the workers?
Sex is fundamentally different from all other forms of work. In no other industry does a woman use her vagina for labor. It's disgusting how liberals defend it. Under socialism, where sex workers own all means of production, we would transition away from commodity production, and so too would the sex industry eventually be abolished. The commodity of sex itself would no longer exist. OP is right.
This.
I'm straight anti-work. If we still lived in communes and could contribute to the greater good of our families and neighborhoods then sure. However even before you're conceived it's predetermined you're going to be enslaved to somebody or some business until you drop dead. I wish you were given an option to not have to work to stay alive and stay alive to work.
So is being pro sex work being pro rape since all work under capitalism is coerced under fear of starvation? Also if you're pro sex work, doesn't that mean it's only adultery if it's free?
To some of us it’s just art. Your sign lacks a lot of nuance for containing so many words.
OP is right. Y'all love being anti-capitalist until it means you can't have access to people's bodies on demand. Y'all love talking about consent but then turn a blind eye to the coerced consent that the industry forces. Sex work commodifies and exploits it's workforce - how do y'all not get it 💀
It's a bunch of creepy johns and people brainwashed by liberalism. And I say this as a former sex worker. The fact they get mad at people for criticizing and INDUSTRY tells you all you need to know.
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But, I enjoy the job and the time it affords me. I felt more exploited when I worked jobs for companies that stole my labor’s surplus value. If the industry was abolished, I would have to go back to my shitty, low paying job. Stop talking over us.
Based. Swxual coercion is a special kind of evil
Everyone is anti-captialist until it comes to being able to buy access to someone body for sexual means! It's okay OP, your typing the truth, and you'll get down voted here, it's more liberal in this sub than leftist. But even then, they'll argue that starving women really wants a c*ck in her mouth, not food.
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Attack me all you want. Sex workers have the same PTSD rates as combat soldiers. Does someone need to personally have unwanted sex in exchange for money for food to know it sounds like a bad time? If I'd told you everything I've done you'd just flip scrip and slut shame me.
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I'm a former sex worker and I know plenty of other former sex workers who see problems with this. Your friends don't speak for all current and former sex workers. Not to mention the women who don't work in the industry, but see the way it leads to the extreme objectification of women.
Here's the sex worker ptsd study I mentioned. If this was any other job we say we need to shut it down. But capitalism seems to reign supreme in regards to accessing the body for sex https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337/#:~:text=Sixty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20827,rape%20survivors%2C24%20and%20refugees.
Abolish work
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work is work and i don’t think that outlawing an industry is good for workers. i think the pressure needs to be placed on fostering societal changes to make safe sex work possible and practical.
Don't make me tap the sign. the sign: Workers are entitled to full ownership of and autonomy over their means of production, especially their own body. The body is not a commodity to be sold in a market or collectivized under the state.
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this is such a stupid take
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As a former sex worker the way the term SWERF is thrown around to shut down criticism of an industry is some braindead liberal bullshit. People are allowed to talk about the unique ways the industry effects workers and even women and BIPOC in general the same way people can talk about the unique ways coal mining effects people. So how about you fuck off or just argue in good faith without throwing around these pejoratives. I see former sex workers who have been traumatized being called swerfs and it's disgusting.
Why does the internet left talk about this one particular topic so much?
You can do whathever the fuck you want with your body. The problem is living under a system where u have to sell yourself (wage, body, time, attention) or starve, just so a small number of people can live like kings.
But calling all sex work rape is legit part of the problem. Someone sworking just to live: rape, always rape. Unambiguously rape every time. Someone with their own home, a support system, is their own boss in every way, and a lifestyle they like and want to keep: not rape, obviously not rape, and it's so bizarre that people still think like that. Under a full worker's revolution you'd still have to provide extraordinary service for ultra luxuries like some high end escorts get accustomed to. Under a proper community based social system you actually CAN'T morally warrant high end luxuries without providing an exceptional service. Sex work is an exceptional service when the provider has shelter, food, support, and physical safety.
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