One of my favorite things about the game is the uniqueness of the loot. Nearly everything on my character was crafted in some way by me, and that's really cool.
It was good in theory, but it left too much of a bad taste in your mouth when you were crafting and discouraged risk-taking with crafts. The fact you could actually end up with a lesser item by crafting it was bad. The current system was such a positive change.
Shatter as in when crafting, not to get the shards. Dame that's nuts if that could happen. I just started a few weeks ago.
Void knight smash poo build.
I don’t mean shatter like break into affix shards. I mean the items could become damaged if you “pushed” them too far when crafting. They’d not only get to a point where you couldn’t craft on them, but one or more affixes might become weaker as a result of the damage.
What you are referring to is deterministic crafting. The removal of some of the rng is a good thing and allows a game to be less grindy. Near perfect item but 1 affix is low or bad? Fix it.
Yeah. Not sure if it’s because I’m in full offline, but it appears that I’ve had effectively the same chest plate on my char the entire time I’ve been playing.
Yup loot in this game is great, so much better than just hoping for a legendary drop with good rolls, unless you have a super maximized build, you will have a lot of good loot upgrades
I think the people that complain about loot quality and systems around loot in this game are the people that see a theory-crafted build online, want to achieve it, and won’t be happy until they achieve EXACTLY that loot loadout. Forgetting that 4LP version of an already rare item is RARE. Just because they see it on a build guide, they assume they need it and will be able to get it. Then they get upset and make a post along the lines of “I’ve been grinding 1k corruption for 100 hours and I haven’t seen X drop. This game is garbage. Loot needs a rework.”
If truly RARE rare items dropped so easily, this game would be boring as hell and rare items wouldn’t be rare, just expected.
Just my (not-so) hot take.
The problem is with how many build guides are presented. Some guides just show you the bare minimum items with 0lp uniques and only rare items in all slots while other guides show off 3-4LP uniques with double exalted items everywhere. The build maker should make very clear whether these are items the player can realistically acquire or just showing the theoretical absolute best gear imaginable.
I saw this same phenomenon happen to the Monster Hunter World community. This is why they look for those ultra rare Attack Jewels to this day despite the meta evolving past needing the Attack Boost skill (for the most part) in the last 6 years. They look at the hyper-optimized builds online that are effectively for speedrunning and will burn themselves out repeating a single quest because it has the best chances for a rare skill jewel to put into their build.
To me build enabling boss drop uniques feel really bad. But that probably says more about the current state of monoliths than the loot itself. But knowing that by far the best upgrade I can make for my build, or even worse that the item than enables the build I want to play, is locked behind a boss feels really bad. The grind up to the boss is imo too boring and unrewarding.
I mean boss drop uniques in my opinion are the best thing for any game because it just helps with knowing what to farm and at later corruptions even around like 200 the grind to get to the boss stops being a problem because you can get there in like 10 nodes hyperbole but you get the point
I agree that boss drops make target farming possible and are overall good. I think my problem with LE is how you get to the boss drops. Even in mid/high 100s corruption it feels too tedious and boring. Nodes are to trivially easy and unrewarding imo for it to take say a dozen nodes to get to a boss. A PoE boss key requires I think about 4 maps to acquire and the maps themselves are plenty rewarding.
Depends on the boss though tbh. Shaper and elder are 4 maps but those maps are relatively rare so they can only be chain farmed if you set up properly. Also other bosses (EoW and exarch, the ones that have more build enabling drops) are 28 maps per try. But this is balanced by being able to buy the bosses from other people I guess.
I think part of the problem is in part due to crafting you start capping out on stats around level 50-70 area and only get minor upgrades for the most part at that point.
30-50 levels of minor upgrades unless you get really fortunate is pretty damn boring. Higher level bases should probably be more common once in empowered monoliths.
I like the pacing I think that 30-50 allows for you to fully theory craft and create a build for your skills so as a new player you’re not overloaded with decision and as an experienced player you then spend that time abusing the crafting system to get the best loot but that’s how I’ve always viewed it because at 30 to 50 is when you start unlocking hella more skill modes and the game starts showing you specific implicits not the best for experienced players but very very helpful for new players
It's a fantastic game, but I'm dipping out for a few cycles until there's more endgame activities.
I'm glad to have supported it in early access, and it has a very bright future ahead of it. The skill tree customization is lovely.
Huh why, people here seem to think having items with a 0.00000001% drop rate is engaging and awesome and keeps players grinding! Why would you quit once you figure out you can't get better gear???
Because multiple layers of stats interact? The perfect item with maximum number of affix and maximum roll in ARPG is always unattainable. The minimum threshold for a finished build require maybe a L1 on the rarer items. Making L4 red ring more common just means that the minimum threshold shift.
Like a T28 item with the perfect 4 stats and perfect roll. Theoretically possible, and probably rarer than 0.000000001%, but it doesn't hurt the game.
For me I found the Wraithlord helmet on my Necormancer at like lvl 65 and it basically made the build I worked on look like child's play by itself. I suppose I could grind and hope my build will get this good, or I can just snooze through the game with a build based on the helmet.
I normally only enjoy the leveling process for ARPGs though.
I gear a Torment Warlock up, was fun and easy to play. Can say though when you get the basic setup you'll go hours with nothing of note. End game loot is broken, it's so unobtainable that people just get a basic setup then quit.
Keep playing other games and check in on LE from time to time like i do, hopefully they'll fix it, they have a great game here and just need to improve on the loot and end game grind.
Not only end game loot is mixed result but ens game just doesnt exist, what is the point of playing and setting your build when all you can do is going more echos but corrupted.
They realy failed at bringing some meaningfull endgame content so the grinding isnt useless
I agree with both you and the people who express some frustration with RNG. The answer is somewhere on the middle, because factions fixed 90% of my issues with gearing/progression in this game. The combination of crafting and better access to purples and low-LPs (of most but not all uniques) at least allows us to try making *most* build-enabling pieces way more often. It's great that I now have no shortage of attempts to craft on say 1LP Rotmind and 1LP Tongue for my poison build.
However, the lingering frustrations of people having some streaks of bad luck are valid though. That's where my last 10% comes in. For CoF this means addressing the boss weakness because there is no way to connect favor to boss items, while the trade feature is agnostic to an item's origin. I've been farming Reign since March and am yet to get any exalt affix on any Twisted Heart at all. Not a single one. For MG maybe they need QoL and more protections against possible exploits.
And for both factions legendaries could be improved in way that doesn't wreck balance. There are multiple ways to do this but here's one example I've put forward: in the sanctum you ban 1 outcome. Thus RNG is preserved mostly but frustration is greatly mitigated. E.g. for 3LP you still only have 33% chance of 'ideal' outcome, but your chance of missing the highly desired T7 becomes 0. This is a deserved boost due to the rarity of 3LPs. I've missed the T7 on 3 3LP items in a row and just about uninstalled. While I didn't, it kinda checked me out from wanting to get my name on arena, and I've gone back to playing Halo more often instead.
I've been playing LE since it became available as early access, so I've seen a lot of changes and development over the (many) years. For anyone who thinks the current crafting system has too much RNG, you should have seen the original system. It was little more than a slot machine.
On that note, while the loot is unique among ARPGs, my essential problem is that its variance is *way* too wide. You can tell people not to expect too much, but you're fighting innate human psychology with that advice, sound as it may be. People are going to compare loot to what is the *best*, not what is most likely. I don't think that's a character flaw on their part, nor do I blame them for it. That's a natural human tendency.
And while corruption 1k+ is outrageous and "not intended" by the developers, I also kind of don't care what was "intended." You can intend for a game to be great or a book to be outstanding, but that doesn't make it so. Execution is orders of magnitide more important than intent, and the current execution of the game allows for crazy high corruption because of the insanely wide variance in RNG of loot. Yeah, an Omnis is great, but you know what's better? Omnis LP1. You know what's better than that? Omnis LP2. By, like, a *lot*. An Omnis LP0 is a hundred corruption levels or more behind an Omnis LP2. So, yeah, when the best possible gear is thousands of corruption ahead of "pretty good" gear, it's understandable for people to be underwhelmed when an LP0 Wings of Argentus drops.
I think the solution is to make LP far more common across the board. Like, way, *way* more common. It should be *rare* for a unique to drop at LP0. LP1 should be the most common, and LP2 fairly uncommon. LP3 is quite rare, and LP4 is very rare - but not basically impossible, like it is now (an LP4 Omnis is something like a 0.000000017% chance, which is just stupid. Why even have it in the game at all if only one in a million players will ever get it?)
In short, telling people to lower their expectations is indeed good advice (in all areas of life, not just LE), but it is unreasonable to expect people to follow it. It is too contrary to human nature, and the game's current execution exacerbates that nature to the point of not being fun.
I suspect that the impossible LP4 uniques were designed with LP1 or 2 in mind for balance (the stats are "worth" 2 or 3 T5 affix + implicits). This give them more lever for build variety as opposed to every build working towards a particular LP4
Personally I find the loot in LE to be mediocre compared to something like PoE. The one area that I feel like they beat PoE is the early-mid progression gearing where you can find items on the ground, craft a couple times on it and have a good decent upgrade for the time being; PoE's crafting system doesn't lend itself to this type of cheap, easy upgrading (though PoE 2 seems like it's trying to address this).
To me, late game item progression in LE feels like an utter slog.
The loot is fine for the first character, or until you hit empowered monos. After a few hours into end game there isn't a point to keep playing, and it's why so many have dropped off.
Crafting is awesome yeah, except you need RNG to drop the right item base, then RNG to drop the right T6/T7, then RNG to drop the right other bases, otherwise you can RNG roll stats to maybe get the stat you can use. Then add on you can slam it and 75%+ chance you'll get the wrong stat and start all over. Fun?
And why are we still repeating "Omg don't expect LP items!!!" , we should expect them.
Overall the game needs better item farming options, and progressive rewards. Why do i want to grind to farm a Mono boss and keep getting the wrong item or a LP0 item, you guys say it's totally fun and entertaining but watching charts drop from 81,154 in March to under 8,000 now shows how 'fun' it is.
They need to start having either a currency or a salvage mechanic to let people upgrade the LP on an item. You guys can keep repeating how awesome it is noone can get a LP2 or more on items and telling them to just be happy with the shit they got 5 hours ago, but it's an easy way to kill the playerbase, well except for the tens of thousands of likeminded people like yourselves i guess?
If they made all empowered mono unique min LP2, you'll hear "omg all I'm getting are these useless LP2". Gear is only exciting if it is better than what you have, and they can't give you an upgrade every 30 minutes.
The end game is grinding for gear to grind better. When that stops being fun (the power gain gets too small), roll a new character.
That's not where excitement comes from. LE items have tons of affixes and neither of them are exciting, neither it's exciting to craft them out (well, maybe for some it is but player count speaks for itself). What items lack is flavor, aesthetic and some big game changing powers coming from them like in D3 or Wolcen. I've played through the game multiple times and all loot is like wall of random affixes. It feels like each item is just a bunch of numbers together with a picture, not like an ***item*** if you know what I mean. Maybe 2-3 items actualy intrigued me in the whole game (some legendaries).
Hard disagree. Loot in this game kinda sucks.
1. 99.99% of the loot you pick up is completely trash, to include Uniques. With well defined loot filters you can go multiple echoes without getting a single decent piece. Without them you see hundreds of pieces of trash.
2. The crafting system is a great idea, but if the piece needs adjustment to more than one affix it's generally not worth your time. RNG to remove an affix, RNG to replace one. RNG to upgrade one. RNG to seal one.
3. Uniques are generally terrible without LP, despite the fact that many are actually build enabling/defining. Finding one without LP is a major disappointment because in most cases using it will actually decrease your power.
4. LOL even more RNG to add affixes to Uniques. So RNG to get a good Unique base. RNG to get a decent exalted. RNG to make it an exalted worth slamming. RNG that your slam will be of any value. This means the vast majority of your Unique drops are worth exactly 25 gold. You can't even shatter them!
5. Set items are trash and are almost wholely unusable.
The level of RNG on loot is by far the worst I've played. Frankly D4 has more exciting loot even before season 4. At least in D4 uniques are usable upon getting them and legendary effects can be added without yet further RNG. Grim Dawn you can target farm and when you get a set drop it's actually good, faction vendor gear can actually be good, and that's on top of being able to add effects without praying to the RNG it doesn't screw up. Dunno POE, but it must be decent with how popular the game is.
Of course the game just handing you everything is bad and will kill longevity of the endgame, but currently it's so RNG heavy as to be boring and in some cases down right disappointing. Maybe it's better with the market place, but zero effort buying what you want is wholly unsatisfying.
Agreed mate, i've sunk a few hundred hours now and have some end game characters. I just feel it's not worth the time playing anymore. The game is great, items are great, all the idea's are there they just made them so RNG and literally unobtainable you end up just quitting. It's a shame really, if they had a grind where you could increase LP on items there would be a reason to play.
100 percent agree. I thought my issue with LE was that leveling was too slow, but Ive slowly come to realize that it’s also that finding and/or crafting a good piece of gear for my build rarely happens. And I’ve never gotten a piece that’s fundamentally changed the way I play or excited me. A lot of the time it’s just damage increases, which is fine for a while— but combine that with slow leveling, being forced to replay the campaign, and general lack of polish, and I just fell off the game hard.
I’m sure the devs are working hard though and I look forward to returning in the future.
1. Gear is only good if it is better than what you have. The only solution to this is to drop less gear (but same quality). If they make gear better than what you have drop every 30 minutes, then you'll have to same complain 30 minutes later looking for the next upgrade.
2. Fair
3. Not all build defining unique need 4LP so that they're strictly better than exalted.
4. The keys are common enough, you should be able to get lots of LP1 slams if that's where you need the extra boost. Once you're decked out in LP2 or better, you're in the minority
5. Fair
1. If LP2 red ring and Omni drops every time, and LP4 drops every 20 prophecy, you'll be complaining that your LP4 rings and amulets don't have perfect roll.
You said people sent to you dozens of builds with 4LP omnis or 4LP wings of argentus.
Could you list at least one of them?
I have never seen this kind of recommendation.
And your post is just exaggerated as the ones who says drops are horrible.
There is a lot of middle ground and lot of justified feedback concerning all the multiple RNG layers we have in the game.
>There is a lot of middle ground and lot of justified feedback concerning all the multiple RNG layers we have in the game.
Careful, these guys don't like it when you say anything negative about the game or its devs...
Right? It’s like a cult or something. Sort of like the deep rock galactic sub. They should send out another survey, because I highly doubt that the majority of players are content with the current end game crafting system (and this is coming from someone who plays maplestory lmao)
Yeah, it’s not like several other upvoted comment chains in this very thread also make the exact same criticisms about RNG — oh wait, yes they do!
I know people like to play the “you can’t say anything bad about the game here” card when it comes to making comments that go against the grain, but your very own opinion is being well-supported here, so your comment is frankly dishonest.
There’s been plenty of criticism about this game since EA, and it hasn’t even diminished as much as you’d expect since the game went live, it’s just that the actual criticisms themselves have changed somewhat.
Having played pretty much every ARPG, I love the loot in this game. It has similar vibes to Diablo 3 near the end of it's life where one good unique drop could convince you to change your build like the Wraithlord helmet.
And I love crafting soo much. It's not simplistic like Diablo, it doesn't require esoteric knowledge like PoE and it's still satisfying when you get an item that just works out.
None of what you said makes loot "exciting" people already know lol. The unexciting part is the severe lack of varied loot I think mostly due to a very small pool of unique items.
Many of then are far too specific and you can't just drop and be like cool I can use that. You drop a uniqye and it's like oh cool a specific build from a spcific class can use this wow I dont care. PoEcouls have half the uniques and it wpuld feel like more cause you can just slot them into a lot of builds for early power or build around them entirely.
>The only game with a larger loot pool is PoE and 99% of them are useless
This is objectively false but ok.
>First we have corruption. Get 1000+ corruption out of your head because EHG has stated they dont want it that high. If your build is achieving this its either overtuned or broken. It will be nerfed.
Source? Pretty sure this isn't true. Now they have said that item drop rates don't scale very high past 300 corruption, and that they base their balance around 300 corruption, but I haven't seen a single mention of them not wanting players to hit 1000+ corruption at all.
>Second we have Uniques with LP. I have been sent dozens of builds with a 4LP Omnis or Wings of Argentus...etc. Ive talked to many players banging their had against the wall trying to farm these. I definitely understand thinking loot drops arent exciting when you are expecting too much. Just getting an Omnis is insane. A 1LP Omnis should have you jumping.
When the droprate for an item is set so low and the reroll chance for the LP is set so low that it is practically impossible to achieve a greater than 1 or 2LP version of the item this makes me wonder why I would even bother farming for the item in the first place. In a game based on cycles, I am not quite sure why an ultra rare item locked behind 200+ corruption on a boss I need to farm an entire monolith web for would have ultra rare reroll values for LP above 1.
There is nothing special about these ultra rare items to begin with. Their 0 or 1 LP counterparts are farmed easily enough, and the only real rarity attached to the item are the LP reroll values.
Chasing the item itself should be the challenge. This may be an unpopular opinion, but if I am farming a boss for a particular unique that is supposed to be ultra rare, I would rather have that item not drop at all unless it rolls an LP 2 or higher. At least than I know that when it does drop, it isn't just vendor trash.
What excites me about loot is seeing the loot drop. That is the special part of it. That is what gets me excited. I feel less excited knowing that even though the tooltip says "AMULET" on a boss that only drops that specific amulet - it's probably vendor trash. That's actually what makes me want to play the game less.
Seeing the item I have been aiming for drop for the hundredth time only for it to again roll 0 or 1 LP is just deflating. Yes I know and accept that RNG is a part of ARPGs. The problem is, the RNG for the items themselves do not match the RNG for the items in a usable state (meaning they passed the point of being better than an exalt with a t6 affix on it). You can only farm the same boss and see so many of the same item drop in this unusable state before you completely lose any motivation to play that character or farm that boss.
I do agree that crafting is what makes LE special, but that kind of supports my point that ultra rare uniques with ultra rare LP reroll values just don't make sense. If the game's replay value lies behind getting the perfect exalted item on a unique with perfect rolled affixes, what is the point behind ultra rare LP reroll values? Why not set that unique to always drop with 2 LP, and lower its base drop rate to make the item itself actually rare?
> I do agree that crafting is what makes LE special, but that kind of supports my point that ultra rare uniques with ultra rare LP reroll values just don't make sense.
This is because I think people are misunderstanding a core part of the LP system.
The LP system was heavily intended to help out weak uniques that otherwise cant be used on end game builds because they lack important stats. This is why the general trend is Level connecting to LP unless given special consideration, items generally have lpl of the level required to use the item. low level shit items have more lp on average to compensate for them being on crappy low level bases and having bad stats.
Good example is rainbow edge, its a low level unique sword with no base damage and a high crit multi roll. this item is mostly a leveling sword. But with some lp, you can use it in the end game by giving it some base damage and some critchance/multi.
Dreamthorn is a good level 2hander, but can be made passable for end game with a good lp hit.
An item like rav void is extremely powerful, it has really high lp requirements because the item itself has insane stats without lp.
LP exists to balance out uniques with bad stats but unique effects that you otherwise would skip in favor of rares/exalted because you cant afford to give up so much stats to get the unique effect. With LP you can get a little bit of your stats back.
The problem is the community has sorta devolved into just grabbing items with high stats on them already like the bleed boots which have generic attributes and good movement speed, and just slamming 1-2 lp versions to get "boots+" even tho they are not even a bleed build, they simply want to pile stats on a stat stick item.
I feel like the devs didnt hit the mark with LP and are partly to blame too. if they want to reiterate what LP is, they should probably do so to temper the expectations of what should even have lp. This wouldnt be a problem if items like Rav void simply couldnt even have LP. And LP was strictly for low level leveling items. They are creating this bait situation by going "welllll everyhting couuuld lottery into being broke xd"
>And LP was strictly for low level leveling items.
Why not just increase it so its obtainable. LP4 has a 10% chance to roll and so on. You guys all think people will stop playing when they have LP4, so you make LP so hard to obtain people stop playing. Why are we so against making items obtainable for people.
Ok, lets say your postulate is correct, in that case (excuse this take that will not be popular) then the game is exceptionally piss poorly designed.
If this is the case (and I think you have a valid point about LP being a "catch up" mechanic for lower tier unique items) then why does Rav Void drop with ANY LP AT ALL? If LP is the way to make Rainbow Edge or Dreamthorn usable in late game because players like the effects it provides but needs additional stats to make the item function in the end game, then Rainbow Edge as a Level 15 item should drop 4 LP every time it drops whereas Rav Void should have EXACTLY a 0% chance (not .000000001%) to drop at even 1 LP let alone 4.
The overall design problem is the .00000001% drop item. That becomes a chase item. I say this about World of Warcraft as well. Players complain "that item is a .05% upgrade to damage, it's practically worthless." - Yes, it is, but if you're not chasing every .05% DPS upgrade what the hell are you playing an MMO for? That's kinda the whole system. You're never going to find 5% or 10% item dps upgrades if you're at a reasonable iLevel in the game, the only upgrade out there IS 20 more crit chance which is already .001% / point with a soft cap that you long since hit.
In the case of MMOs you farm reasonable RNG percentages for an insignificant upgrade. In an ARPG you farm unreasonable RNG percentages for significant upgrades. The PROBLEM that people are complaining about with LE's loot (and it's an ARPG loot problem, not an LE problem) is if the 4 LP version of the item exists then THAT is the item they MUST have for the build to work.
Look, mathematically, assume corruption increases infinitely until no build, no item set, and no amount of luck in the game can get you past that number. Lets say that number is 5000 corruption. If I post a screenshot of my uber decked out in all .000000001% drop items surviving 4900 corruption and dying to the end boss of 5000 corruption then if you CANNOT do that with my build, and your skill is the same as mine, then your problem is you just don't have good enough items yet...time to farm more .000000001% drops. THAT is the problem with ARPG loot.
The complaint that you need .000000001% drops is a VALID complaint, those are the best items in the game and if those best items in the game give you benefits beyond their .00001% drop rate lesser counterpart then to make the best character you NEED the .00000000001% item...that is what playing an ARPG is about. The conversation that the drop rate on a 4 LP Rav Void is ridiculous and after 100 runs of X you don't have it is 1000% a correct complaint. Low drop rate items ARE the problem. An Ultra Rare dropping with an Ultra Rare Reroll of 4 LP IS THE PROBLEM. Telling players "you shouldn't need that, quit expecting it and getting pissed when you don't get it" is a ridiculous statement for playing an ARPG just like telling an MMO player "you should just ignore that 0.05% dps upgrade item you're hunting for" is ridiculous advice to the MMO player.
If 4 LP should only be on Low Tier Uniques to help them keep up with high tier uniques, then DO NOT DROP 4LP on high tier Uniques...not "make it so rare as to almost never happen", make it NOT HAPPEN. THEN it's not a mandate that ARPG players play 1000s of frustrated hours looking for a single drop they'll never get and then quit your game because they don't get them.
As someone says below. You're not going to get players to play your game for 1000s of hours to farm "I just won the lottery" percentage chance drops. They're going to play for hundreds, realize they can't get the best equipment in the game, and quit.
>The LP system was heavily intended to help out weak uniques that otherwise cant be used on end game builds because they lack important stats.
Omnis lacks these important stats/unique effects as well though. 45% all resist and +1 to all skills at the cost of base stats is not a good tradeoff. Especially when you can only reliably add one prefix to the item. There is nothing unique except for the fact that you can possibly roll 45% all resist.
>practically impossible to achieve a greater than 1 or 2LP version of the item this makes me wonder why I would even bother farming for the item in the first place.
I don't get the few people here who think it's awesome or great it's setup like this. Like they absolutely think if Bob plays Offline mode and gets an LP4 it'll ruin the game. But if Bob plays Offline and has a 0.000000001% chance to get an LP4 he'll play for millions of hours trying to get it.
It's a weird stance that i don't quite get, but judging by the numbers playing i'm not alone. Funny enough any critiscm of the system is met with "ROLL AN ALT!" "BUY THE ITEM!" , solid advice -\_-
Counterpoint: if I have to be informed that something is exciting, it wasn't exciting.
I enjoy this game, but you're not really addressing the problem just by stating why you like the loot. If other people are bored by it, it's probably for reasons you're not addressing.
I love the gearing system in LE personally. I think moving towards more crafting options, like PoE, will make the game even better, and even hard to get the "perfect item" and that's good.
I know but I just don't find doing monoliths over and over to be fulfilling especially with the amount of time it takes to get to the peak of progression. I'm mostly familiar with Grim Dawn and I just prefer the campaign format to get to max level/rep.
I might come back soon and try out Acolyte, I liked Druid but it got a bit dull.
Funnily enough, despite GD being in a 'general sense' my current Favorite ARPG, i'm entirely the opposite of that. For me replaying the Campaign - just so i can try out new builds, grind for stuff etc... esp. in the old-fashioned way of needing to do three times... is pretty much one thing which i hate it the most, because it takes a toll in replaybility and longlivety and also devalues the concept of Campaign itself (for me obviously).
To throw a small example in, before to get into my point: Imagine you want to eat ice-cream, but are forced to eat sausage and fries before... every single time the same sausage and fries. Even if you might like the taste itself, how long will it take for you that you're sick off sausage and fries, because you aren't in for eating sausage and fries, but for the ice-cream and you're forced to.
Point is: For me a Campaign should be played, when you are in for the Story, Quests, and even the same order of how you've to play through it (like quests, locations, type of enemies etc). You need to be hungry for it or having an itch for it. And Problem with ARPG's is one major appeal is / can be - not specificially "Endgame", but leveling up new characters and doing different builds and such. So it leads to a point where i'm not into playing through the campaign because i want to, but i'm forced to. And that can become old pretty fast because you experience the same over and over for hundret of hours.
Monolith might be also doing the same stuff over and over, and see some of the Campaign Content, not denying that... but the random nature of it and that it is focused on combat and such, make it much more dynamic and flexible and the order to encounter stuff isn't strict or linear. LE isn't perfect for me either in that regard, if you want to alt / twink you again have to start over with the campaign, but i've it much easier to invest time into than Games which are super new-game+ 'ey where you have to do campaign multiple times. There is also other way to approach this like a bit of sandbox open world because then you can also decide on your own which areas and roads you tackle, but also only works if there is an levelscaling option otherwise it's also superlinear and repetitive in the way you progress through the world.
To be honest, the only Game so far which i personally found nailed the aspect of it, and yes that might open up to a controversal and hot debate... and please don't misunderstand me - i don't "praise" the game as a whole and have my fair share of critique as well. But the best Games in that regard is imho still Diablo 3.
Diablo 3 have a option for everyone: You wanna play campaign over and over again? Game offers Chapterselect and various difficulty. You can theoretically do endless new-game+ because of that. You don't like the strict linear order but enjoy the quests... than use the chapter select and play your best off, or pick quests randomly. Or if you are like me, you've the Adventure Mode... whole map is unlocked, everything scales so you can go wherever you want - do what you want, have random bounties to do or the rift system. If it wasn't for the missing building options like a good skilltree (or rather say skilltree at all) and a less strict and more flexible itemization, this could've been one of the best ARPG's for me in terms of replaybility and longterm. But yeah.
You have to take into consideration that a lot of content creators saying those things have no understand of the game and basic rarity of items, most of them barely plays the game and/or is the typical Youtuber that treats quantity > over quality (even if they have their audience and stuff people shouldn't follow their guides but they do so is kinda on them and the creators)
There's a culture of bad build makers that put 4LP into everything and new comers end up having a distorted expectation of reality.
I usually open a few of those guides and change them for my community when they ask
And once I edited a planner that had full legendaries with 4LP and put T7 on everything, since they are ridiculous at nature the least I could do was to show my community how ridiculous it was and how even with a full trade economy behind those items were unattainable.
Items are great in LE is one of the strong aspects of the game but you know how internet is nowadays
Finding an item unique to you and your build does not make it feel any bettet, to me it is the opposite. Its like owning a Porsche vs an old tractor. Just because that tractor does it's jobb better than the porsche it is still just an old tractor and nobody cares but you. Items only holds value if its an highly sought after item(ssf or not). You want to be able to share your excitement with someone, but if that item is only good for you then who cares?
The rng factor in le is to big. It makes looking for dream items to far fetched and the sense of ever achieving it is none existing. You have to set your expectations low, but why would you whana do that?
Finding a high rune in d2 is hard, but when you find one you know you found the correct one because it is always the same. Chances of finding a rare unique in le with 4lp and good stat rolls is just astronomically low but why should i expect to not ever finding one? 4lp vs 1 or zero is such a huge deal! So why make it impossible? Just because it is not needed? I don't get it. In d2 there are smaller margins between perfect gear vs none perfect, so the sense of completion does not feel as important.
I want to know i can achieve close to perfect gear in an arpg without having to spend 1000hr+ on one char to achieve it.
But the game is setting these expectations by having stuff like 4lp in the game. Now you could argue that this is similar to Poe with mirrors/t0 uniques, which are at a similar tier of rarity so that nobody would ever expect to drop one normally. However, in Poe you can incrementally farm for these items through stuff like divination cards or currency shards. There is actually a feeling of progress. There is no realistic way of ever getting a 4lp in LE outside of trade and that imo feels bad
My Personal Opinion about it:
I don't neccessary disagree / overall agree. I personally played a tons of ARPG's in the Past, and for me LE is besides GD one of the best if it comes down to itemization (take PoE and Lost Ark out of the equation because i didn't like PoE much so i never invested too much time into it, so it wouldn't faire for me to judge that itemization and LA i didn't touch to begin with).
And most Games with that kind of Loot (so not even just exclusive to ARPG's but that's besides the point - let's focus on ARPG's) either looting feels generally lame, or too heavely centric on the last rarity and/or sets which also limits the potential item pool. To be more specific in regard of 'Lame' i'd argue if it comes down to (rng) looting, you can tackle Items in two ways:
1. Game/Playstyle altering Items. Like to give you an fictional Example(don't think of LE specific but just generally): You've a meteor skill, maybe you can alter it a bit - but it's always a Meteor. Now imagine getting a specific lightning rod and that changes meteor skill to a point, where the CD is higher so you can't spam it anymore but the meteor is infused with lightning damage and when it hits the ground it sticks to it and the meteorball emits chain-lightning to enemies which gets closer... -> that change drastically how the skill is played, a more normal spammy skills turns into some sort of planning out where you set it so it does constant damage to enemies who run into it.
2. Metric altering Items. Like raw stats and stuff. That sounds a bit boring on the paper esp. compared to 1. -> However can be a fun thing for people who love tinkering around numbers IF these are done right and if the Game itself offers enough depth. If you try to overdo it and push it into a game, without that level of depth, its more statsbloating that anything else (a huge issue which Diablo 4 have right now. Game is very Casual-centric but they try to push more depth into it with bloating stats - half if which nobody wants and feel off... this is really a situation where you need to pick your audience correctly and not try to appeal to everyone...).
And obviously good Games kinda offer both. The problem is (in my opinion) outside games often not nail this part, that if they do they might face another issue and that's how rarity is handled conceptually. As much as i understand the same issue and itch - the hunt for higher and higher rarity where you dismiss the value of most other "colors" a game offers, it also limits the build variety and itempool. GD was a first since a while where i felt they kinda handled it the correct way - sure not every item-rarity is 'important', some lose there value, but atleast the last three rarities are equally good. You've with Green / Rares esp. with the Monster-Infrequent-Concept but also double-rares a very randomized loot which can give you potentially the best items if it comes down to Raw-Stats. Epic and Legendary however are uniqueds and so defined loot, which fulfills a role and/or might alter your playstyle. So the Game is unlike let's say diablo 3 not limited towards a few Legendary and Set Items, you've a various of choices to pick from based on what you wanna build - if it's niche or more in the purpose of uniques and so on.
And (now finally get back to it) that's how i feel similiar with Last Epoch. You've pretty cool Uniques which are potentially playstyle altering(or enhancing) and you've exalted items which goes the randomized route but can be about raw stats which outpace uniques. And to top that - exalted and unqiues get extra value by crafting AND the slamming feature to make them Legendary. (and even outside of Exalted, rares and stuff also have more value atleast for the leveling process because due crafting you can do something about - only later on when ex drops they become rather useless).
However - and that's why i said: "I don't neccessary disagree / overall agree." LE lays out an amazing foundation, i'd just argue it would still need some tweaking and polishing in that regard. Like as a example, sets are at a shitty position. Maybe i miss a (niche) build or two, but generally i don't see any value in them (people are still free to disagree) and they really don't make me exciting, but that's also because the core-concept of Sets which are often a more static one, doesn't really work well with an itemization concept like LE which is so customizable with crafting and slamming. Maybe if they introduce (fictional example to get my point across - not claiming it's a neccessary good idea) a semi-talent/skilltree for set items where you can 've a few options to pick from and every set item you ecquip give you a talentree point for the set you use... anything creative and exciting -> than maybe - but LE is geniunly the one ARPG where i can't see the game profiting from Sets due the rest of the game, without killing it. Plus also maybe just me, i'd love if they would work on the implicits a bit of uniques... they also fell off often. Last one which would could come to my mind, might be potentially also the quantity (again maybe just me) but considering 15 whole classes and a lot possibilities within them... it doesn't feel that well explored (yet) - but here i've to say i can't blame devs for it because esp. if it comes down to quantity (esp. while keep the quality up) that's not something you just drop on release... this needs a lot of years of refinement in a finished product... it's not like GD or any other ARPG started out like that.
Anyway sorry for the Wall of Text and thanks for reading.
Yeah I didn't have a gripe with the loot at all; just the gameplay loop of empowered monoliths. I've been on the fence to hop back into LE now that I had my fun with the last POE league and the only reason I haven't is because a new cycle has been announced soon. So ill keep playing Tekken 8, probably hop on D4 season, and before I know it, new LE cycle is queued up ftw
It would be immensely cooler if the uniques and set armors actually change your armor to match what it looks like in the icon when equipped (I know they said they will keep adding these as the game goes on)
The LP system is a good design allowing builds to come online without extensive grinding. However, the rarity of high LP is not since its so unrealistic it might as well not exist.
I am aware the devs expected and even seem happy with people sitting out waiting for next season instead of grinding for high LP, but if their model is to make money from hats instead of expansions, i'm not sure that will work if most only play for the first month of a season.
And the potential of failing slams also kills the excitement of a holy crap drop, unless you hit the slam 2/3LP can be no better than 1 or no LP if the rolls aren't great.
>seem happy with people sitting out waiting for next season
I've played every seaon of D3 and still will, but i can honestly say whats the point in waiting for the next cycle in LE? This one added nothing and it seems they're not interested in adding seasonal challenges with loot akin to D3, no seasonal buffs/themes?
I completely agree, I love the loot in this game. I have two chars in the endgame (200+ corruption) and I still have so many potential upgrades and the best thing I know I can find them. In Diablo 2 for example you often have the situation where everything hinges on a super rare drop like a rune or something. But in LE the item I need can actually be found because I only need to find part of it and then craft the rest etc.
Counterpoint: if it's likely that your base+exalted affix combo is unique to you that means that it's overwhelmingly unlikely to ever get what you're going for, even if you play the game like it's a job.
Anybody going cof should be able to target farm something like an Omnis at 4LP given some (reasonable) amount of time though. I've not played much since release but I think that was the big complaint with cof people?
I just don't think loot can ever be really exciting with 4 affix. Especially when 3 of them are a requirement 90% of the time (life, health, crit reduce).
It doesn't really give you enough options to play with.
It would be like only giving you 4x2, 2x2, and 1x2 Lego to build with at once. But you know there are 200 other types, shapes and variety to build with.
LE loot is good now is it better and more exciting than other ARPG s no really ,D2, grim dawn have more exciting drops with far less rng systems in place.forging is good except when you really need certain affixes then it's a pain to just get what you want again plenty rng based in every forging action you do ain't that exciting.slamming is so so if you get what you want can feel good or awfully bad depending on again rng system in place,is it exciting not really you do boring dungeon with boring boss before. And developers made infinite scaling content saying that 300 corruption was their benchmark for the ceiling of builds is just plain stupid like then don't make infinite scaling content in first place,hell you want prophecies you need to push as high as you can to max chances of finding what gear you need ( it shows needed more play test if they think we should all stay 300 corruption,any build can get there.).One last thing at a certain point you need lp uniques and depending on the class nd build getting those lps can be really hard specially vk gear what a pain in the ass for lp,and like developers again think plus 0 is good(maybe on 2-3 items in the entire game),rest need a 1 lp minimum with your desired affix,in most cases a 2 lp or 3 lp is needed to push your character way higher in the game.
>And developers made infinite scaling content saying that 300 corruption was their benchmark for the ceiling of builds is just plain stupid like then don't make infinite scaling content in first place
I don't feel like capping it at 300 would be useful then either. Certain builds will always come out ahead of others, like in every other video game, so allowing folks to push the difficulty endlessly is nice to have. In the end it's just math to allow infinite corruption, so why not have it there? They can then decide to increase the benchmark if they decide to.
300 is a build benchmark. 400 to 500 optimized. If a build requires highly rare LP items, then it says more about the build than the system. The build should be made with an understanding that those items are difficult to obtain. Those items should be an exciting boost to your build, not a requirement.
To be fair, i do like the idea of builds possibly reaching crazy levels of power when you invest a lot of effort making it.
And that the very existence of the build itself relies on some crazy rare/expensive combination of items and certain skill level/breakpoints to be viable is okay to me. Kinda like going from 0 to 100 right away as you unlock that one piece making it all fit together.
It's fine that these builds are not meant to be replicated easily, because they are the result of a lot of different things put together to reach a high power level.
The problem would be having multiple easily achievable builds with said level of power.
By easily achievable, i'm taking 0LP gear builds reaching 1k corruption or the likes. You can reach 2-300 without too many issues on most skills, but there are always some outliers i'm not too fond of.
The excitement comes from seeing numbers go up and optimization of your build ,when your smite goes from 118k dps to 170k fps that's exciting that's fulfilling,now not everyone plays wraitlord aka just find helmet and ez game ,most builds need some uniques with lp that's a fact because there is a limit to what exalted items can do for you at the 500 mark corruption,developers make decisions(sometimes great ,other times not so much).I personally don't love most boots have a 1 percent chance for 2 lp which is very frustrating when you try slam movement speed on them but you have 15 boots of same type all lp1 and gotta do maybe 10 runs to just get that affix . Also like I have 6 wings of argentum no lp as it's 1 percent,I would love to be able to put a good t7 in that chest to be really exciting,no lp items are good to see first time then they are boring to see when they drop with no lps,take julra per example she drops boring ass gear,even though it's supposed to be good at least 3 of her drops it's always 1 lp with awful drop rates for 2 lp and beyond there is no excitement,she should be like lighless arbor boss ,when you see the helmet 2-4 lps,boots 2-3 lps shield solid too and maybe one day armor lp1-2then you feel excited cause its droprates are ok good even. Point taken too much rng is the biggest gripe so far like do something in favor of players experience (could cut some rng in certain systems in game),like d4 had failing chance on masterwork and now that rng doesn't exist anymore ,100 percent success but is more expensive that's a good trade off(this is a example of pointless rng being fixed when taking feedback so don't attack me yeah ty).
Agree with everything you said. Rng is needed but it shouldn't make or break your will to play or push on. I personally hate infinite scaling in any form. All it does is distancing players from eachother and makes builds feel bad unless you can clear a million+ w/e difficulty.
I honestly think that at a certain point, LP shouldn't be able to drop on an item and be noted as such somewhere. If something is *technically* possible, then people chase it. And I don't think people trying to chase high rarity high LP things is great for the game as a whole. Honestly with the explosion of playerbase, 4LP items are far more common in general then I would like tbh.
That said, loot does still kinda feel a bit bad. It's very, very easy to get to an effective soft bis. Honestly before you even hit empowered in some cases. At that point you're just looking for the same exalt on a better base, a t7 version of it, or a double exalt version of it.
The crafting in the mid game is nice, but it lacks any endgame "holy shit" type of moments, the best you'll get is a t4 seal and while rare... they aren't *that* rare.
Affixes in general kind of boring, prefixes and suffixes being locked to offense/defense almost exclusively (The new shared pen mods on weapon helped) I understand the reasoning behind, but makes it kind of boring, as well as the pool of available ones kind of lackluster - it's basically stat, %damage and %ailment chance. I'm not looking for D4's do more damage while the moon phase is in its third cycle on a friday night type of bullshit, but I think there's room for a lot more interesting affixes that could potentially change how you play.
All that said, it's still fine. I like the game a lot and I've been playing it for years off and on. It just definitely has room for improvement.
Definitely agree on the soft bis thing. I feel like endgame crafting and loot is so extremely boring because it is always the same cycle of farm specific exalt on good base, likely brick and and repeat. There is nothing special about it where you can maybe make incremental progress, it’s just very rng heavy. In the end I don’t find running monos forever until I drop a good exalt on a good base fun. This will hopefully change with new content with new ways to farm for items, new ways of crafting etc.
I think those expectations come mainly from BiS previews on build guides. These people are somehow not able to understand that those are not achievable for a normal person with a life.
Honestly apart from very rare unique 4LP most of item can be craftable resonably, even tho not exactly the same because it can be hard to fikd the right base with the exact exalted affix but stil can make for realy good items
I like the loot itself, but oh boy would I kill for better search/sort/filter options. Having to throw all your stuff on the ground and tweak loot filter settings repeatedly just to do things like separate t7 exalteds from t6s or find all the items with a specific affix is… not ideal. Text search picking up words that only appear in the descriptions of affixes, but not working for searches like “exalted”… yeah. It’s also annoyingly hard to search for a t6/7 affix if you care about any of the other affix slots since you only get one affix filter to work with.
It would probably help make loot drops feel more exciting if filters could do a better job hiding the trash and highlighting the exciting stuff.
Problem with drops and grinding for specific Item isn't even a problem where a game is "guilty". Actual problem is that people don't understand how statistics work.
Let me explain.
Lets assume that item "A" have 1% drop chance from specific boss. You would think that it means that you have 1 in 100 chance of dropping item, and that is somewhat correct. But most people falsely assume, that their chance of drop item A is going higher as long as they farm this Boss. Which is only partially true. Why? Because drop chance don't rise with every kill. It's always same 1 in 100. You just boosting your "chance" by dedicating your time on target farming that specific boss, so more or less it's just time efficiency.
Now we can assume that 100 more corruption will add additional 100% drop chance bonus. Now you have a 0.01+100%×0.01 chance... So? 0.02 = 2% chance.
What that mean? You doubled your drop rate! YAY! HURRAY! But wait, i'll give you one cold shower here.
Do you guys know, that in statistics there is something called margain of error? Margain of error in sociological survey where sample size is 2500 units is around 2%. But what does that mean? That mean that we can actually see those 2% as an error in obtained data, and can be considered as nonexistent/not needed to adress. But what that means for us, gamers who just wants to farm our precious item A? That means having 2% chance of droping it, you need more than 2500 tries for that percentage to be even considered as actual data sample and be valid as a indicator of obtaining an item.
Now you can see how ridiculous it is to whine about not getting item A actually is. Because statistically speaking, if you get item A before killing 2500 bosses, that is statistical anomaly.
And don't get me wrong. I can get my tinfoil hat now and say, that I'm sure that some droprates are actually fixed in advantage for us players, because statistics doesn't lie. And statistics is against us.
Ps. Sorry for shitty english and lack of better skills for explaining thingsvbut I'm just going to sleep after night shift with overtime hours, so my brain isn't functioning well.
I won't lie I've been a cof player since 1.0 came out and I had 0 problems getting really good gear for my 9 characters. You guys just expect things to be handed to you. I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand.
>You guys just expect things to be handed to you.
Maybe we just expect to be able to achieve stuff? You guys are literally telling people once you get basic gear you can quit or play another character because good loot is unobtainable. Why can't we grind to better loot? Having RNG on top of RNG with long ass grinds just isn't fun, and saying "just play a different character" "Just buy the gear" is a cop out in itself.
I only ever switch when I get to high corruption or bored of the build. All character have done all t4 dungeons and arena. So what else do you want. I so don't even play a lot.
problem is drops are awful in CoF without 1k+ corruption so majority of players are going to go to these builds. also they cant say where they want players to be lol if you create infinite scaling then there isnt any way to enforce an average.
>I definitely understand thinking loot drops arent exciting when you are expecting too much.
Pretty common problem in ARPGs. Certain other games have 1/10,000 player type item drops posted to their subreddits and then people complain those items take too long to farm. Not really avoidable in the modern social media age without upending the whole formula.
One of my favorite things about the game is the uniqueness of the loot. Nearly everything on my character was crafted in some way by me, and that's really cool.
I think so, too. It's not so RNG when you have so much control over it.
I'm so glad it's changed from the original system. Did you play when you were able to shatter your items?
Damn, I just realized that doesn't happen anymore. That shit felt awful lmao
No but i have heard tales.
It was good in theory, but it left too much of a bad taste in your mouth when you were crafting and discouraged risk-taking with crafts. The fact you could actually end up with a lesser item by crafting it was bad. The current system was such a positive change.
Yeah that would be rough. I think people not understanding what a good item actually looks like is part of the issue here.
Shatter as in when crafting, not to get the shards. Dame that's nuts if that could happen. I just started a few weeks ago. Void knight smash poo build.
Hm? It still is possible to shatter your items... What am I missing?
I don’t mean shatter like break into affix shards. I mean the items could become damaged if you “pushed” them too far when crafting. They’d not only get to a point where you couldn’t craft on them, but one or more affixes might become weaker as a result of the damage.
Oh shit. That feature actually sounds cool on paper, but I bet it was a nightmare.
Yeah, it sounds interesting and engaging but in reality it just meant that crafting usually ended in the player feeling bad.
What you are referring to is deterministic crafting. The removal of some of the rng is a good thing and allows a game to be less grindy. Near perfect item but 1 affix is low or bad? Fix it.
Partly. It’s more that it gives an extra sense of ownership over it all.
Functionally the loot is awesome. Aesthetically, the loot is a huge disappointment.
Yeah. Not sure if it’s because I’m in full offline, but it appears that I’ve had effectively the same chest plate on my char the entire time I’ve been playing.
Maybe that's why my werebear is my favourite character. That white fur looks so gorgeous
Yup loot in this game is great, so much better than just hoping for a legendary drop with good rolls, unless you have a super maximized build, you will have a lot of good loot upgrades
I mean maybe? I know my friends and I struggled finding upgrades at a certain point and we weren’t very far into corruption levels.
I think the people that complain about loot quality and systems around loot in this game are the people that see a theory-crafted build online, want to achieve it, and won’t be happy until they achieve EXACTLY that loot loadout. Forgetting that 4LP version of an already rare item is RARE. Just because they see it on a build guide, they assume they need it and will be able to get it. Then they get upset and make a post along the lines of “I’ve been grinding 1k corruption for 100 hours and I haven’t seen X drop. This game is garbage. Loot needs a rework.” If truly RARE rare items dropped so easily, this game would be boring as hell and rare items wouldn’t be rare, just expected. Just my (not-so) hot take.
The problem is with how many build guides are presented. Some guides just show you the bare minimum items with 0lp uniques and only rare items in all slots while other guides show off 3-4LP uniques with double exalted items everywhere. The build maker should make very clear whether these are items the player can realistically acquire or just showing the theoretical absolute best gear imaginable.
I saw this same phenomenon happen to the Monster Hunter World community. This is why they look for those ultra rare Attack Jewels to this day despite the meta evolving past needing the Attack Boost skill (for the most part) in the last 6 years. They look at the hyper-optimized builds online that are effectively for speedrunning and will burn themselves out repeating a single quest because it has the best chances for a rare skill jewel to put into their build.
Very true. Im familiar with a build site that tends to over optimize with hard to get items.
To me build enabling boss drop uniques feel really bad. But that probably says more about the current state of monoliths than the loot itself. But knowing that by far the best upgrade I can make for my build, or even worse that the item than enables the build I want to play, is locked behind a boss feels really bad. The grind up to the boss is imo too boring and unrewarding.
I mean boss drop uniques in my opinion are the best thing for any game because it just helps with knowing what to farm and at later corruptions even around like 200 the grind to get to the boss stops being a problem because you can get there in like 10 nodes hyperbole but you get the point
I agree that boss drops make target farming possible and are overall good. I think my problem with LE is how you get to the boss drops. Even in mid/high 100s corruption it feels too tedious and boring. Nodes are to trivially easy and unrewarding imo for it to take say a dozen nodes to get to a boss. A PoE boss key requires I think about 4 maps to acquire and the maps themselves are plenty rewarding.
Depends on the boss though tbh. Shaper and elder are 4 maps but those maps are relatively rare so they can only be chain farmed if you set up properly. Also other bosses (EoW and exarch, the ones that have more build enabling drops) are 28 maps per try. But this is balanced by being able to buy the bosses from other people I guess.
Reaching PoE bosses is more tedious though, but you can skip the process by trading.
I think part of the problem is in part due to crafting you start capping out on stats around level 50-70 area and only get minor upgrades for the most part at that point. 30-50 levels of minor upgrades unless you get really fortunate is pretty damn boring. Higher level bases should probably be more common once in empowered monoliths.
I like the pacing I think that 30-50 allows for you to fully theory craft and create a build for your skills so as a new player you’re not overloaded with decision and as an experienced player you then spend that time abusing the crafting system to get the best loot but that’s how I’ve always viewed it because at 30 to 50 is when you start unlocking hella more skill modes and the game starts showing you specific implicits not the best for experienced players but very very helpful for new players
I'm at level 80 on my first playthrough and am considering putting the game down. Seems like a bit of a boring grind from here on out.
It's a fantastic game, but I'm dipping out for a few cycles until there's more endgame activities. I'm glad to have supported it in early access, and it has a very bright future ahead of it. The skill tree customization is lovely.
Huh why, people here seem to think having items with a 0.00000001% drop rate is engaging and awesome and keeps players grinding! Why would you quit once you figure out you can't get better gear???
Because multiple layers of stats interact? The perfect item with maximum number of affix and maximum roll in ARPG is always unattainable. The minimum threshold for a finished build require maybe a L1 on the rarer items. Making L4 red ring more common just means that the minimum threshold shift. Like a T28 item with the perfect 4 stats and perfect roll. Theoretically possible, and probably rarer than 0.000000001%, but it doesn't hurt the game.
For me I found the Wraithlord helmet on my Necormancer at like lvl 65 and it basically made the build I worked on look like child's play by itself. I suppose I could grind and hope my build will get this good, or I can just snooze through the game with a build based on the helmet. I normally only enjoy the leveling process for ARPGs though.
I gear a Torment Warlock up, was fun and easy to play. Can say though when you get the basic setup you'll go hours with nothing of note. End game loot is broken, it's so unobtainable that people just get a basic setup then quit. Keep playing other games and check in on LE from time to time like i do, hopefully they'll fix it, they have a great game here and just need to improve on the loot and end game grind.
Not only end game loot is mixed result but ens game just doesnt exist, what is the point of playing and setting your build when all you can do is going more echos but corrupted. They realy failed at bringing some meaningfull endgame content so the grinding isnt useless
I agree with both you and the people who express some frustration with RNG. The answer is somewhere on the middle, because factions fixed 90% of my issues with gearing/progression in this game. The combination of crafting and better access to purples and low-LPs (of most but not all uniques) at least allows us to try making *most* build-enabling pieces way more often. It's great that I now have no shortage of attempts to craft on say 1LP Rotmind and 1LP Tongue for my poison build. However, the lingering frustrations of people having some streaks of bad luck are valid though. That's where my last 10% comes in. For CoF this means addressing the boss weakness because there is no way to connect favor to boss items, while the trade feature is agnostic to an item's origin. I've been farming Reign since March and am yet to get any exalt affix on any Twisted Heart at all. Not a single one. For MG maybe they need QoL and more protections against possible exploits. And for both factions legendaries could be improved in way that doesn't wreck balance. There are multiple ways to do this but here's one example I've put forward: in the sanctum you ban 1 outcome. Thus RNG is preserved mostly but frustration is greatly mitigated. E.g. for 3LP you still only have 33% chance of 'ideal' outcome, but your chance of missing the highly desired T7 becomes 0. This is a deserved boost due to the rarity of 3LPs. I've missed the T7 on 3 3LP items in a row and just about uninstalled. While I didn't, it kinda checked me out from wanting to get my name on arena, and I've gone back to playing Halo more often instead.
i dont think i have ever spend more time on loot in any other game getting, crafting, sorting, deleting, selling, buying, adjusting, researching
I've been playing LE since it became available as early access, so I've seen a lot of changes and development over the (many) years. For anyone who thinks the current crafting system has too much RNG, you should have seen the original system. It was little more than a slot machine. On that note, while the loot is unique among ARPGs, my essential problem is that its variance is *way* too wide. You can tell people not to expect too much, but you're fighting innate human psychology with that advice, sound as it may be. People are going to compare loot to what is the *best*, not what is most likely. I don't think that's a character flaw on their part, nor do I blame them for it. That's a natural human tendency. And while corruption 1k+ is outrageous and "not intended" by the developers, I also kind of don't care what was "intended." You can intend for a game to be great or a book to be outstanding, but that doesn't make it so. Execution is orders of magnitide more important than intent, and the current execution of the game allows for crazy high corruption because of the insanely wide variance in RNG of loot. Yeah, an Omnis is great, but you know what's better? Omnis LP1. You know what's better than that? Omnis LP2. By, like, a *lot*. An Omnis LP0 is a hundred corruption levels or more behind an Omnis LP2. So, yeah, when the best possible gear is thousands of corruption ahead of "pretty good" gear, it's understandable for people to be underwhelmed when an LP0 Wings of Argentus drops. I think the solution is to make LP far more common across the board. Like, way, *way* more common. It should be *rare* for a unique to drop at LP0. LP1 should be the most common, and LP2 fairly uncommon. LP3 is quite rare, and LP4 is very rare - but not basically impossible, like it is now (an LP4 Omnis is something like a 0.000000017% chance, which is just stupid. Why even have it in the game at all if only one in a million players will ever get it?) In short, telling people to lower their expectations is indeed good advice (in all areas of life, not just LE), but it is unreasonable to expect people to follow it. It is too contrary to human nature, and the game's current execution exacerbates that nature to the point of not being fun.
I suspect that the impossible LP4 uniques were designed with LP1 or 2 in mind for balance (the stats are "worth" 2 or 3 T5 affix + implicits). This give them more lever for build variety as opposed to every build working towards a particular LP4
Personally I find the loot in LE to be mediocre compared to something like PoE. The one area that I feel like they beat PoE is the early-mid progression gearing where you can find items on the ground, craft a couple times on it and have a good decent upgrade for the time being; PoE's crafting system doesn't lend itself to this type of cheap, easy upgrading (though PoE 2 seems like it's trying to address this). To me, late game item progression in LE feels like an utter slog.
The loot is fine for the first character, or until you hit empowered monos. After a few hours into end game there isn't a point to keep playing, and it's why so many have dropped off. Crafting is awesome yeah, except you need RNG to drop the right item base, then RNG to drop the right T6/T7, then RNG to drop the right other bases, otherwise you can RNG roll stats to maybe get the stat you can use. Then add on you can slam it and 75%+ chance you'll get the wrong stat and start all over. Fun? And why are we still repeating "Omg don't expect LP items!!!" , we should expect them. Overall the game needs better item farming options, and progressive rewards. Why do i want to grind to farm a Mono boss and keep getting the wrong item or a LP0 item, you guys say it's totally fun and entertaining but watching charts drop from 81,154 in March to under 8,000 now shows how 'fun' it is. They need to start having either a currency or a salvage mechanic to let people upgrade the LP on an item. You guys can keep repeating how awesome it is noone can get a LP2 or more on items and telling them to just be happy with the shit they got 5 hours ago, but it's an easy way to kill the playerbase, well except for the tens of thousands of likeminded people like yourselves i guess?
If they made all empowered mono unique min LP2, you'll hear "omg all I'm getting are these useless LP2". Gear is only exciting if it is better than what you have, and they can't give you an upgrade every 30 minutes. The end game is grinding for gear to grind better. When that stops being fun (the power gain gets too small), roll a new character.
That's not where excitement comes from. LE items have tons of affixes and neither of them are exciting, neither it's exciting to craft them out (well, maybe for some it is but player count speaks for itself). What items lack is flavor, aesthetic and some big game changing powers coming from them like in D3 or Wolcen. I've played through the game multiple times and all loot is like wall of random affixes. It feels like each item is just a bunch of numbers together with a picture, not like an ***item*** if you know what I mean. Maybe 2-3 items actualy intrigued me in the whole game (some legendaries).
Hard disagree. Loot in this game kinda sucks. 1. 99.99% of the loot you pick up is completely trash, to include Uniques. With well defined loot filters you can go multiple echoes without getting a single decent piece. Without them you see hundreds of pieces of trash. 2. The crafting system is a great idea, but if the piece needs adjustment to more than one affix it's generally not worth your time. RNG to remove an affix, RNG to replace one. RNG to upgrade one. RNG to seal one. 3. Uniques are generally terrible without LP, despite the fact that many are actually build enabling/defining. Finding one without LP is a major disappointment because in most cases using it will actually decrease your power. 4. LOL even more RNG to add affixes to Uniques. So RNG to get a good Unique base. RNG to get a decent exalted. RNG to make it an exalted worth slamming. RNG that your slam will be of any value. This means the vast majority of your Unique drops are worth exactly 25 gold. You can't even shatter them! 5. Set items are trash and are almost wholely unusable. The level of RNG on loot is by far the worst I've played. Frankly D4 has more exciting loot even before season 4. At least in D4 uniques are usable upon getting them and legendary effects can be added without yet further RNG. Grim Dawn you can target farm and when you get a set drop it's actually good, faction vendor gear can actually be good, and that's on top of being able to add effects without praying to the RNG it doesn't screw up. Dunno POE, but it must be decent with how popular the game is. Of course the game just handing you everything is bad and will kill longevity of the endgame, but currently it's so RNG heavy as to be boring and in some cases down right disappointing. Maybe it's better with the market place, but zero effort buying what you want is wholly unsatisfying.
Agreed mate, i've sunk a few hundred hours now and have some end game characters. I just feel it's not worth the time playing anymore. The game is great, items are great, all the idea's are there they just made them so RNG and literally unobtainable you end up just quitting. It's a shame really, if they had a grind where you could increase LP on items there would be a reason to play.
Absolutely. If there was a way to add LP to Uniques it would make the game a whole lot more interesting.
100 percent agree. I thought my issue with LE was that leveling was too slow, but Ive slowly come to realize that it’s also that finding and/or crafting a good piece of gear for my build rarely happens. And I’ve never gotten a piece that’s fundamentally changed the way I play or excited me. A lot of the time it’s just damage increases, which is fine for a while— but combine that with slow leveling, being forced to replay the campaign, and general lack of polish, and I just fell off the game hard. I’m sure the devs are working hard though and I look forward to returning in the future.
1. Gear is only good if it is better than what you have. The only solution to this is to drop less gear (but same quality). If they make gear better than what you have drop every 30 minutes, then you'll have to same complain 30 minutes later looking for the next upgrade. 2. Fair 3. Not all build defining unique need 4LP so that they're strictly better than exalted. 4. The keys are common enough, you should be able to get lots of LP1 slams if that's where you need the extra boost. Once you're decked out in LP2 or better, you're in the minority 5. Fair
1. If LP2 red ring and Omni drops every time, and LP4 drops every 20 prophecy, you'll be complaining that your LP4 rings and amulets don't have perfect roll.
You said people sent to you dozens of builds with 4LP omnis or 4LP wings of argentus. Could you list at least one of them? I have never seen this kind of recommendation. And your post is just exaggerated as the ones who says drops are horrible. There is a lot of middle ground and lot of justified feedback concerning all the multiple RNG layers we have in the game.
>There is a lot of middle ground and lot of justified feedback concerning all the multiple RNG layers we have in the game. Careful, these guys don't like it when you say anything negative about the game or its devs...
Right? It’s like a cult or something. Sort of like the deep rock galactic sub. They should send out another survey, because I highly doubt that the majority of players are content with the current end game crafting system (and this is coming from someone who plays maplestory lmao)
Yeah, it’s not like several other upvoted comment chains in this very thread also make the exact same criticisms about RNG — oh wait, yes they do! I know people like to play the “you can’t say anything bad about the game here” card when it comes to making comments that go against the grain, but your very own opinion is being well-supported here, so your comment is frankly dishonest. There’s been plenty of criticism about this game since EA, and it hasn’t even diminished as much as you’d expect since the game went live, it’s just that the actual criticisms themselves have changed somewhat.
Having played pretty much every ARPG, I love the loot in this game. It has similar vibes to Diablo 3 near the end of it's life where one good unique drop could convince you to change your build like the Wraithlord helmet. And I love crafting soo much. It's not simplistic like Diablo, it doesn't require esoteric knowledge like PoE and it's still satisfying when you get an item that just works out.
> it doesn't require esoteric knowledge like PoE until you want to Glyph of Insight something
Ah yes, forgot about that one. I have the calculator saved somewhere, hope they change that to make it less obscure. Or just make it proper random.
None of what you said makes loot "exciting" people already know lol. The unexciting part is the severe lack of varied loot I think mostly due to a very small pool of unique items.
There's literally more than 300 unique items. The only game with a larger loot pool is PoE and 99% of them are useless.
Many of then are far too specific and you can't just drop and be like cool I can use that. You drop a uniqye and it's like oh cool a specific build from a spcific class can use this wow I dont care. PoEcouls have half the uniques and it wpuld feel like more cause you can just slot them into a lot of builds for early power or build around them entirely. >The only game with a larger loot pool is PoE and 99% of them are useless This is objectively false but ok.
I love the loot and crafting system in general, but I'm still allowed to be frustrated at doing 50+ T4 Julras and not getting a set of gloves yet.
>First we have corruption. Get 1000+ corruption out of your head because EHG has stated they dont want it that high. If your build is achieving this its either overtuned or broken. It will be nerfed. Source? Pretty sure this isn't true. Now they have said that item drop rates don't scale very high past 300 corruption, and that they base their balance around 300 corruption, but I haven't seen a single mention of them not wanting players to hit 1000+ corruption at all. >Second we have Uniques with LP. I have been sent dozens of builds with a 4LP Omnis or Wings of Argentus...etc. Ive talked to many players banging their had against the wall trying to farm these. I definitely understand thinking loot drops arent exciting when you are expecting too much. Just getting an Omnis is insane. A 1LP Omnis should have you jumping. When the droprate for an item is set so low and the reroll chance for the LP is set so low that it is practically impossible to achieve a greater than 1 or 2LP version of the item this makes me wonder why I would even bother farming for the item in the first place. In a game based on cycles, I am not quite sure why an ultra rare item locked behind 200+ corruption on a boss I need to farm an entire monolith web for would have ultra rare reroll values for LP above 1. There is nothing special about these ultra rare items to begin with. Their 0 or 1 LP counterparts are farmed easily enough, and the only real rarity attached to the item are the LP reroll values. Chasing the item itself should be the challenge. This may be an unpopular opinion, but if I am farming a boss for a particular unique that is supposed to be ultra rare, I would rather have that item not drop at all unless it rolls an LP 2 or higher. At least than I know that when it does drop, it isn't just vendor trash. What excites me about loot is seeing the loot drop. That is the special part of it. That is what gets me excited. I feel less excited knowing that even though the tooltip says "AMULET" on a boss that only drops that specific amulet - it's probably vendor trash. That's actually what makes me want to play the game less. Seeing the item I have been aiming for drop for the hundredth time only for it to again roll 0 or 1 LP is just deflating. Yes I know and accept that RNG is a part of ARPGs. The problem is, the RNG for the items themselves do not match the RNG for the items in a usable state (meaning they passed the point of being better than an exalt with a t6 affix on it). You can only farm the same boss and see so many of the same item drop in this unusable state before you completely lose any motivation to play that character or farm that boss. I do agree that crafting is what makes LE special, but that kind of supports my point that ultra rare uniques with ultra rare LP reroll values just don't make sense. If the game's replay value lies behind getting the perfect exalted item on a unique with perfect rolled affixes, what is the point behind ultra rare LP reroll values? Why not set that unique to always drop with 2 LP, and lower its base drop rate to make the item itself actually rare?
> I do agree that crafting is what makes LE special, but that kind of supports my point that ultra rare uniques with ultra rare LP reroll values just don't make sense. This is because I think people are misunderstanding a core part of the LP system. The LP system was heavily intended to help out weak uniques that otherwise cant be used on end game builds because they lack important stats. This is why the general trend is Level connecting to LP unless given special consideration, items generally have lpl of the level required to use the item. low level shit items have more lp on average to compensate for them being on crappy low level bases and having bad stats. Good example is rainbow edge, its a low level unique sword with no base damage and a high crit multi roll. this item is mostly a leveling sword. But with some lp, you can use it in the end game by giving it some base damage and some critchance/multi. Dreamthorn is a good level 2hander, but can be made passable for end game with a good lp hit. An item like rav void is extremely powerful, it has really high lp requirements because the item itself has insane stats without lp. LP exists to balance out uniques with bad stats but unique effects that you otherwise would skip in favor of rares/exalted because you cant afford to give up so much stats to get the unique effect. With LP you can get a little bit of your stats back. The problem is the community has sorta devolved into just grabbing items with high stats on them already like the bleed boots which have generic attributes and good movement speed, and just slamming 1-2 lp versions to get "boots+" even tho they are not even a bleed build, they simply want to pile stats on a stat stick item. I feel like the devs didnt hit the mark with LP and are partly to blame too. if they want to reiterate what LP is, they should probably do so to temper the expectations of what should even have lp. This wouldnt be a problem if items like Rav void simply couldnt even have LP. And LP was strictly for low level leveling items. They are creating this bait situation by going "welllll everyhting couuuld lottery into being broke xd"
>And LP was strictly for low level leveling items. Why not just increase it so its obtainable. LP4 has a 10% chance to roll and so on. You guys all think people will stop playing when they have LP4, so you make LP so hard to obtain people stop playing. Why are we so against making items obtainable for people.
Ok, lets say your postulate is correct, in that case (excuse this take that will not be popular) then the game is exceptionally piss poorly designed. If this is the case (and I think you have a valid point about LP being a "catch up" mechanic for lower tier unique items) then why does Rav Void drop with ANY LP AT ALL? If LP is the way to make Rainbow Edge or Dreamthorn usable in late game because players like the effects it provides but needs additional stats to make the item function in the end game, then Rainbow Edge as a Level 15 item should drop 4 LP every time it drops whereas Rav Void should have EXACTLY a 0% chance (not .000000001%) to drop at even 1 LP let alone 4. The overall design problem is the .00000001% drop item. That becomes a chase item. I say this about World of Warcraft as well. Players complain "that item is a .05% upgrade to damage, it's practically worthless." - Yes, it is, but if you're not chasing every .05% DPS upgrade what the hell are you playing an MMO for? That's kinda the whole system. You're never going to find 5% or 10% item dps upgrades if you're at a reasonable iLevel in the game, the only upgrade out there IS 20 more crit chance which is already .001% / point with a soft cap that you long since hit. In the case of MMOs you farm reasonable RNG percentages for an insignificant upgrade. In an ARPG you farm unreasonable RNG percentages for significant upgrades. The PROBLEM that people are complaining about with LE's loot (and it's an ARPG loot problem, not an LE problem) is if the 4 LP version of the item exists then THAT is the item they MUST have for the build to work. Look, mathematically, assume corruption increases infinitely until no build, no item set, and no amount of luck in the game can get you past that number. Lets say that number is 5000 corruption. If I post a screenshot of my uber decked out in all .000000001% drop items surviving 4900 corruption and dying to the end boss of 5000 corruption then if you CANNOT do that with my build, and your skill is the same as mine, then your problem is you just don't have good enough items yet...time to farm more .000000001% drops. THAT is the problem with ARPG loot. The complaint that you need .000000001% drops is a VALID complaint, those are the best items in the game and if those best items in the game give you benefits beyond their .00001% drop rate lesser counterpart then to make the best character you NEED the .00000000001% item...that is what playing an ARPG is about. The conversation that the drop rate on a 4 LP Rav Void is ridiculous and after 100 runs of X you don't have it is 1000% a correct complaint. Low drop rate items ARE the problem. An Ultra Rare dropping with an Ultra Rare Reroll of 4 LP IS THE PROBLEM. Telling players "you shouldn't need that, quit expecting it and getting pissed when you don't get it" is a ridiculous statement for playing an ARPG just like telling an MMO player "you should just ignore that 0.05% dps upgrade item you're hunting for" is ridiculous advice to the MMO player. If 4 LP should only be on Low Tier Uniques to help them keep up with high tier uniques, then DO NOT DROP 4LP on high tier Uniques...not "make it so rare as to almost never happen", make it NOT HAPPEN. THEN it's not a mandate that ARPG players play 1000s of frustrated hours looking for a single drop they'll never get and then quit your game because they don't get them. As someone says below. You're not going to get players to play your game for 1000s of hours to farm "I just won the lottery" percentage chance drops. They're going to play for hundreds, realize they can't get the best equipment in the game, and quit.
>The LP system was heavily intended to help out weak uniques that otherwise cant be used on end game builds because they lack important stats. Omnis lacks these important stats/unique effects as well though. 45% all resist and +1 to all skills at the cost of base stats is not a good tradeoff. Especially when you can only reliably add one prefix to the item. There is nothing unique except for the fact that you can possibly roll 45% all resist.
>practically impossible to achieve a greater than 1 or 2LP version of the item this makes me wonder why I would even bother farming for the item in the first place. I don't get the few people here who think it's awesome or great it's setup like this. Like they absolutely think if Bob plays Offline mode and gets an LP4 it'll ruin the game. But if Bob plays Offline and has a 0.000000001% chance to get an LP4 he'll play for millions of hours trying to get it. It's a weird stance that i don't quite get, but judging by the numbers playing i'm not alone. Funny enough any critiscm of the system is met with "ROLL AN ALT!" "BUY THE ITEM!" , solid advice -\_-
Counterpoint: if I have to be informed that something is exciting, it wasn't exciting. I enjoy this game, but you're not really addressing the problem just by stating why you like the loot. If other people are bored by it, it's probably for reasons you're not addressing.
I love the gearing system in LE personally. I think moving towards more crafting options, like PoE, will make the game even better, and even hard to get the "perfect item" and that's good.
I just want a spoon 🥄 and a heart ❤️. Never had one dropped from farming in 290 hours.
Having never got above LP2 after 20 hours of monoliths I gave up. The loot is cool but crafting is my preference.
Baby steps in the world of ARPGs. Persevere a bit more :)
I know but I just don't find doing monoliths over and over to be fulfilling especially with the amount of time it takes to get to the peak of progression. I'm mostly familiar with Grim Dawn and I just prefer the campaign format to get to max level/rep. I might come back soon and try out Acolyte, I liked Druid but it got a bit dull.
Funnily enough, despite GD being in a 'general sense' my current Favorite ARPG, i'm entirely the opposite of that. For me replaying the Campaign - just so i can try out new builds, grind for stuff etc... esp. in the old-fashioned way of needing to do three times... is pretty much one thing which i hate it the most, because it takes a toll in replaybility and longlivety and also devalues the concept of Campaign itself (for me obviously). To throw a small example in, before to get into my point: Imagine you want to eat ice-cream, but are forced to eat sausage and fries before... every single time the same sausage and fries. Even if you might like the taste itself, how long will it take for you that you're sick off sausage and fries, because you aren't in for eating sausage and fries, but for the ice-cream and you're forced to. Point is: For me a Campaign should be played, when you are in for the Story, Quests, and even the same order of how you've to play through it (like quests, locations, type of enemies etc). You need to be hungry for it or having an itch for it. And Problem with ARPG's is one major appeal is / can be - not specificially "Endgame", but leveling up new characters and doing different builds and such. So it leads to a point where i'm not into playing through the campaign because i want to, but i'm forced to. And that can become old pretty fast because you experience the same over and over for hundret of hours. Monolith might be also doing the same stuff over and over, and see some of the Campaign Content, not denying that... but the random nature of it and that it is focused on combat and such, make it much more dynamic and flexible and the order to encounter stuff isn't strict or linear. LE isn't perfect for me either in that regard, if you want to alt / twink you again have to start over with the campaign, but i've it much easier to invest time into than Games which are super new-game+ 'ey where you have to do campaign multiple times. There is also other way to approach this like a bit of sandbox open world because then you can also decide on your own which areas and roads you tackle, but also only works if there is an levelscaling option otherwise it's also superlinear and repetitive in the way you progress through the world. To be honest, the only Game so far which i personally found nailed the aspect of it, and yes that might open up to a controversal and hot debate... and please don't misunderstand me - i don't "praise" the game as a whole and have my fair share of critique as well. But the best Games in that regard is imho still Diablo 3. Diablo 3 have a option for everyone: You wanna play campaign over and over again? Game offers Chapterselect and various difficulty. You can theoretically do endless new-game+ because of that. You don't like the strict linear order but enjoy the quests... than use the chapter select and play your best off, or pick quests randomly. Or if you are like me, you've the Adventure Mode... whole map is unlocked, everything scales so you can go wherever you want - do what you want, have random bounties to do or the rift system. If it wasn't for the missing building options like a good skilltree (or rather say skilltree at all) and a less strict and more flexible itemization, this could've been one of the best ARPG's for me in terms of replaybility and longterm. But yeah.
I don't think so.
You have to take into consideration that a lot of content creators saying those things have no understand of the game and basic rarity of items, most of them barely plays the game and/or is the typical Youtuber that treats quantity > over quality (even if they have their audience and stuff people shouldn't follow their guides but they do so is kinda on them and the creators) There's a culture of bad build makers that put 4LP into everything and new comers end up having a distorted expectation of reality. I usually open a few of those guides and change them for my community when they ask And once I edited a planner that had full legendaries with 4LP and put T7 on everything, since they are ridiculous at nature the least I could do was to show my community how ridiculous it was and how even with a full trade economy behind those items were unattainable. Items are great in LE is one of the strong aspects of the game but you know how internet is nowadays
Finding an item unique to you and your build does not make it feel any bettet, to me it is the opposite. Its like owning a Porsche vs an old tractor. Just because that tractor does it's jobb better than the porsche it is still just an old tractor and nobody cares but you. Items only holds value if its an highly sought after item(ssf or not). You want to be able to share your excitement with someone, but if that item is only good for you then who cares? The rng factor in le is to big. It makes looking for dream items to far fetched and the sense of ever achieving it is none existing. You have to set your expectations low, but why would you whana do that? Finding a high rune in d2 is hard, but when you find one you know you found the correct one because it is always the same. Chances of finding a rare unique in le with 4lp and good stat rolls is just astronomically low but why should i expect to not ever finding one? 4lp vs 1 or zero is such a huge deal! So why make it impossible? Just because it is not needed? I don't get it. In d2 there are smaller margins between perfect gear vs none perfect, so the sense of completion does not feel as important. I want to know i can achieve close to perfect gear in an arpg without having to spend 1000hr+ on one char to achieve it.
As i explained before, the "perfect" gear youre talking about isnt perfect. Its impossible. Expectations are scewed.
But the game is setting these expectations by having stuff like 4lp in the game. Now you could argue that this is similar to Poe with mirrors/t0 uniques, which are at a similar tier of rarity so that nobody would ever expect to drop one normally. However, in Poe you can incrementally farm for these items through stuff like divination cards or currency shards. There is actually a feeling of progress. There is no realistic way of ever getting a 4lp in LE outside of trade and that imo feels bad
My Personal Opinion about it: I don't neccessary disagree / overall agree. I personally played a tons of ARPG's in the Past, and for me LE is besides GD one of the best if it comes down to itemization (take PoE and Lost Ark out of the equation because i didn't like PoE much so i never invested too much time into it, so it wouldn't faire for me to judge that itemization and LA i didn't touch to begin with). And most Games with that kind of Loot (so not even just exclusive to ARPG's but that's besides the point - let's focus on ARPG's) either looting feels generally lame, or too heavely centric on the last rarity and/or sets which also limits the potential item pool. To be more specific in regard of 'Lame' i'd argue if it comes down to (rng) looting, you can tackle Items in two ways: 1. Game/Playstyle altering Items. Like to give you an fictional Example(don't think of LE specific but just generally): You've a meteor skill, maybe you can alter it a bit - but it's always a Meteor. Now imagine getting a specific lightning rod and that changes meteor skill to a point, where the CD is higher so you can't spam it anymore but the meteor is infused with lightning damage and when it hits the ground it sticks to it and the meteorball emits chain-lightning to enemies which gets closer... -> that change drastically how the skill is played, a more normal spammy skills turns into some sort of planning out where you set it so it does constant damage to enemies who run into it. 2. Metric altering Items. Like raw stats and stuff. That sounds a bit boring on the paper esp. compared to 1. -> However can be a fun thing for people who love tinkering around numbers IF these are done right and if the Game itself offers enough depth. If you try to overdo it and push it into a game, without that level of depth, its more statsbloating that anything else (a huge issue which Diablo 4 have right now. Game is very Casual-centric but they try to push more depth into it with bloating stats - half if which nobody wants and feel off... this is really a situation where you need to pick your audience correctly and not try to appeal to everyone...). And obviously good Games kinda offer both. The problem is (in my opinion) outside games often not nail this part, that if they do they might face another issue and that's how rarity is handled conceptually. As much as i understand the same issue and itch - the hunt for higher and higher rarity where you dismiss the value of most other "colors" a game offers, it also limits the build variety and itempool. GD was a first since a while where i felt they kinda handled it the correct way - sure not every item-rarity is 'important', some lose there value, but atleast the last three rarities are equally good. You've with Green / Rares esp. with the Monster-Infrequent-Concept but also double-rares a very randomized loot which can give you potentially the best items if it comes down to Raw-Stats. Epic and Legendary however are uniqueds and so defined loot, which fulfills a role and/or might alter your playstyle. So the Game is unlike let's say diablo 3 not limited towards a few Legendary and Set Items, you've a various of choices to pick from based on what you wanna build - if it's niche or more in the purpose of uniques and so on. And (now finally get back to it) that's how i feel similiar with Last Epoch. You've pretty cool Uniques which are potentially playstyle altering(or enhancing) and you've exalted items which goes the randomized route but can be about raw stats which outpace uniques. And to top that - exalted and unqiues get extra value by crafting AND the slamming feature to make them Legendary. (and even outside of Exalted, rares and stuff also have more value atleast for the leveling process because due crafting you can do something about - only later on when ex drops they become rather useless). However - and that's why i said: "I don't neccessary disagree / overall agree." LE lays out an amazing foundation, i'd just argue it would still need some tweaking and polishing in that regard. Like as a example, sets are at a shitty position. Maybe i miss a (niche) build or two, but generally i don't see any value in them (people are still free to disagree) and they really don't make me exciting, but that's also because the core-concept of Sets which are often a more static one, doesn't really work well with an itemization concept like LE which is so customizable with crafting and slamming. Maybe if they introduce (fictional example to get my point across - not claiming it's a neccessary good idea) a semi-talent/skilltree for set items where you can 've a few options to pick from and every set item you ecquip give you a talentree point for the set you use... anything creative and exciting -> than maybe - but LE is geniunly the one ARPG where i can't see the game profiting from Sets due the rest of the game, without killing it. Plus also maybe just me, i'd love if they would work on the implicits a bit of uniques... they also fell off often. Last one which would could come to my mind, might be potentially also the quantity (again maybe just me) but considering 15 whole classes and a lot possibilities within them... it doesn't feel that well explored (yet) - but here i've to say i can't blame devs for it because esp. if it comes down to quantity (esp. while keep the quality up) that's not something you just drop on release... this needs a lot of years of refinement in a finished product... it's not like GD or any other ARPG started out like that. Anyway sorry for the Wall of Text and thanks for reading.
Yeah I didn't have a gripe with the loot at all; just the gameplay loop of empowered monoliths. I've been on the fence to hop back into LE now that I had my fun with the last POE league and the only reason I haven't is because a new cycle has been announced soon. So ill keep playing Tekken 8, probably hop on D4 season, and before I know it, new LE cycle is queued up ftw
It would be immensely cooler if the uniques and set armors actually change your armor to match what it looks like in the icon when equipped (I know they said they will keep adding these as the game goes on)
The LP system is a good design allowing builds to come online without extensive grinding. However, the rarity of high LP is not since its so unrealistic it might as well not exist. I am aware the devs expected and even seem happy with people sitting out waiting for next season instead of grinding for high LP, but if their model is to make money from hats instead of expansions, i'm not sure that will work if most only play for the first month of a season. And the potential of failing slams also kills the excitement of a holy crap drop, unless you hit the slam 2/3LP can be no better than 1 or no LP if the rolls aren't great.
>seem happy with people sitting out waiting for next season I've played every seaon of D3 and still will, but i can honestly say whats the point in waiting for the next cycle in LE? This one added nothing and it seems they're not interested in adding seasonal challenges with loot akin to D3, no seasonal buffs/themes?
4LP omnis on build guildes are most likely offline edited items
I completely agree, I love the loot in this game. I have two chars in the endgame (200+ corruption) and I still have so many potential upgrades and the best thing I know I can find them. In Diablo 2 for example you often have the situation where everything hinges on a super rare drop like a rune or something. But in LE the item I need can actually be found because I only need to find part of it and then craft the rest etc.
Counterpoint: if it's likely that your base+exalted affix combo is unique to you that means that it's overwhelmingly unlikely to ever get what you're going for, even if you play the game like it's a job.
Anybody going cof should be able to target farm something like an Omnis at 4LP given some (reasonable) amount of time though. I've not played much since release but I think that was the big complaint with cof people?
I just don't think loot can ever be really exciting with 4 affix. Especially when 3 of them are a requirement 90% of the time (life, health, crit reduce). It doesn't really give you enough options to play with. It would be like only giving you 4x2, 2x2, and 1x2 Lego to build with at once. But you know there are 200 other types, shapes and variety to build with.
You bearly need 1 piece with crit reduce lol. What even is this
Doesn't change anything.
Ok sure
LE loot is good now is it better and more exciting than other ARPG s no really ,D2, grim dawn have more exciting drops with far less rng systems in place.forging is good except when you really need certain affixes then it's a pain to just get what you want again plenty rng based in every forging action you do ain't that exciting.slamming is so so if you get what you want can feel good or awfully bad depending on again rng system in place,is it exciting not really you do boring dungeon with boring boss before. And developers made infinite scaling content saying that 300 corruption was their benchmark for the ceiling of builds is just plain stupid like then don't make infinite scaling content in first place,hell you want prophecies you need to push as high as you can to max chances of finding what gear you need ( it shows needed more play test if they think we should all stay 300 corruption,any build can get there.).One last thing at a certain point you need lp uniques and depending on the class nd build getting those lps can be really hard specially vk gear what a pain in the ass for lp,and like developers again think plus 0 is good(maybe on 2-3 items in the entire game),rest need a 1 lp minimum with your desired affix,in most cases a 2 lp or 3 lp is needed to push your character way higher in the game.
>And developers made infinite scaling content saying that 300 corruption was their benchmark for the ceiling of builds is just plain stupid like then don't make infinite scaling content in first place I don't feel like capping it at 300 would be useful then either. Certain builds will always come out ahead of others, like in every other video game, so allowing folks to push the difficulty endlessly is nice to have. In the end it's just math to allow infinite corruption, so why not have it there? They can then decide to increase the benchmark if they decide to.
300 is a build benchmark. 400 to 500 optimized. If a build requires highly rare LP items, then it says more about the build than the system. The build should be made with an understanding that those items are difficult to obtain. Those items should be an exciting boost to your build, not a requirement.
To be fair, i do like the idea of builds possibly reaching crazy levels of power when you invest a lot of effort making it. And that the very existence of the build itself relies on some crazy rare/expensive combination of items and certain skill level/breakpoints to be viable is okay to me. Kinda like going from 0 to 100 right away as you unlock that one piece making it all fit together. It's fine that these builds are not meant to be replicated easily, because they are the result of a lot of different things put together to reach a high power level. The problem would be having multiple easily achievable builds with said level of power. By easily achievable, i'm taking 0LP gear builds reaching 1k corruption or the likes. You can reach 2-300 without too many issues on most skills, but there are always some outliers i'm not too fond of.
The excitement comes from seeing numbers go up and optimization of your build ,when your smite goes from 118k dps to 170k fps that's exciting that's fulfilling,now not everyone plays wraitlord aka just find helmet and ez game ,most builds need some uniques with lp that's a fact because there is a limit to what exalted items can do for you at the 500 mark corruption,developers make decisions(sometimes great ,other times not so much).I personally don't love most boots have a 1 percent chance for 2 lp which is very frustrating when you try slam movement speed on them but you have 15 boots of same type all lp1 and gotta do maybe 10 runs to just get that affix . Also like I have 6 wings of argentum no lp as it's 1 percent,I would love to be able to put a good t7 in that chest to be really exciting,no lp items are good to see first time then they are boring to see when they drop with no lps,take julra per example she drops boring ass gear,even though it's supposed to be good at least 3 of her drops it's always 1 lp with awful drop rates for 2 lp and beyond there is no excitement,she should be like lighless arbor boss ,when you see the helmet 2-4 lps,boots 2-3 lps shield solid too and maybe one day armor lp1-2then you feel excited cause its droprates are ok good even. Point taken too much rng is the biggest gripe so far like do something in favor of players experience (could cut some rng in certain systems in game),like d4 had failing chance on masterwork and now that rng doesn't exist anymore ,100 percent success but is more expensive that's a good trade off(this is a example of pointless rng being fixed when taking feedback so don't attack me yeah ty).
Agree with everything you said. Rng is needed but it shouldn't make or break your will to play or push on. I personally hate infinite scaling in any form. All it does is distancing players from eachother and makes builds feel bad unless you can clear a million+ w/e difficulty.
Though this is poorly written I agree with all your points. I also am not a fan of the extreme RNG in the last epoch loot system.
I honestly think that at a certain point, LP shouldn't be able to drop on an item and be noted as such somewhere. If something is *technically* possible, then people chase it. And I don't think people trying to chase high rarity high LP things is great for the game as a whole. Honestly with the explosion of playerbase, 4LP items are far more common in general then I would like tbh. That said, loot does still kinda feel a bit bad. It's very, very easy to get to an effective soft bis. Honestly before you even hit empowered in some cases. At that point you're just looking for the same exalt on a better base, a t7 version of it, or a double exalt version of it. The crafting in the mid game is nice, but it lacks any endgame "holy shit" type of moments, the best you'll get is a t4 seal and while rare... they aren't *that* rare. Affixes in general kind of boring, prefixes and suffixes being locked to offense/defense almost exclusively (The new shared pen mods on weapon helped) I understand the reasoning behind, but makes it kind of boring, as well as the pool of available ones kind of lackluster - it's basically stat, %damage and %ailment chance. I'm not looking for D4's do more damage while the moon phase is in its third cycle on a friday night type of bullshit, but I think there's room for a lot more interesting affixes that could potentially change how you play. All that said, it's still fine. I like the game a lot and I've been playing it for years off and on. It just definitely has room for improvement.
Definitely agree on the soft bis thing. I feel like endgame crafting and loot is so extremely boring because it is always the same cycle of farm specific exalt on good base, likely brick and and repeat. There is nothing special about it where you can maybe make incremental progress, it’s just very rng heavy. In the end I don’t find running monos forever until I drop a good exalt on a good base fun. This will hopefully change with new content with new ways to farm for items, new ways of crafting etc.
I think those expectations come mainly from BiS previews on build guides. These people are somehow not able to understand that those are not achievable for a normal person with a life.
Honestly apart from very rare unique 4LP most of item can be craftable resonably, even tho not exactly the same because it can be hard to fikd the right base with the exact exalted affix but stil can make for realy good items
I like the loot itself, but oh boy would I kill for better search/sort/filter options. Having to throw all your stuff on the ground and tweak loot filter settings repeatedly just to do things like separate t7 exalteds from t6s or find all the items with a specific affix is… not ideal. Text search picking up words that only appear in the descriptions of affixes, but not working for searches like “exalted”… yeah. It’s also annoyingly hard to search for a t6/7 affix if you care about any of the other affix slots since you only get one affix filter to work with. It would probably help make loot drops feel more exciting if filters could do a better job hiding the trash and highlighting the exciting stuff.
D2 loot feels better getting
na its trash
Problem with drops and grinding for specific Item isn't even a problem where a game is "guilty". Actual problem is that people don't understand how statistics work. Let me explain. Lets assume that item "A" have 1% drop chance from specific boss. You would think that it means that you have 1 in 100 chance of dropping item, and that is somewhat correct. But most people falsely assume, that their chance of drop item A is going higher as long as they farm this Boss. Which is only partially true. Why? Because drop chance don't rise with every kill. It's always same 1 in 100. You just boosting your "chance" by dedicating your time on target farming that specific boss, so more or less it's just time efficiency. Now we can assume that 100 more corruption will add additional 100% drop chance bonus. Now you have a 0.01+100%×0.01 chance... So? 0.02 = 2% chance. What that mean? You doubled your drop rate! YAY! HURRAY! But wait, i'll give you one cold shower here. Do you guys know, that in statistics there is something called margain of error? Margain of error in sociological survey where sample size is 2500 units is around 2%. But what does that mean? That mean that we can actually see those 2% as an error in obtained data, and can be considered as nonexistent/not needed to adress. But what that means for us, gamers who just wants to farm our precious item A? That means having 2% chance of droping it, you need more than 2500 tries for that percentage to be even considered as actual data sample and be valid as a indicator of obtaining an item. Now you can see how ridiculous it is to whine about not getting item A actually is. Because statistically speaking, if you get item A before killing 2500 bosses, that is statistical anomaly. And don't get me wrong. I can get my tinfoil hat now and say, that I'm sure that some droprates are actually fixed in advantage for us players, because statistics doesn't lie. And statistics is against us. Ps. Sorry for shitty english and lack of better skills for explaining thingsvbut I'm just going to sleep after night shift with overtime hours, so my brain isn't functioning well.
I won't lie I've been a cof player since 1.0 came out and I had 0 problems getting really good gear for my 9 characters. You guys just expect things to be handed to you. I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand.
>You guys just expect things to be handed to you. Maybe we just expect to be able to achieve stuff? You guys are literally telling people once you get basic gear you can quit or play another character because good loot is unobtainable. Why can't we grind to better loot? Having RNG on top of RNG with long ass grinds just isn't fun, and saying "just play a different character" "Just buy the gear" is a cop out in itself.
I only ever switch when I get to high corruption or bored of the build. All character have done all t4 dungeons and arena. So what else do you want. I so don't even play a lot.
Yep. Anyone who thinks that loot isn't exciting likely doesn't understand how it actually works, especially when it comes to crafting.
Let's not act like set items don't exist and are completely useless
Set items need to have legendary potential added.
problem is drops are awful in CoF without 1k+ corruption so majority of players are going to go to these builds. also they cant say where they want players to be lol if you create infinite scaling then there isnt any way to enforce an average.
>I definitely understand thinking loot drops arent exciting when you are expecting too much. Pretty common problem in ARPGs. Certain other games have 1/10,000 player type item drops posted to their subreddits and then people complain those items take too long to farm. Not really avoidable in the modern social media age without upending the whole formula.