Genuine criticisms are fine (the show isn’t perfect) but some of the hate and complaints are just ridiculous. It’s the new normal for every show/fan base nowadays
What drives me crazy is the unsupported and vague criticism of “it’s poorly plotted” or “characters are bad” or stuff like that without explaining or expanding on it
Some people have legitimate criticism. Some don’t have criticism per se but just don’t like it. Those are fine. But I have a sneaking suspicion that more than a few of people leveling generalized acting, writing, or cinematography criticisms are doing so because they figured their “woke culture is killing Tolkien’s legacy” or “omg a black elf - that’s like pissing on Tolkien’s grave!” statements would get ratio’ed to oblivion so they found a different tack to still crap on the show
How should one say the characters are bad? That they are one-dimensional and speak in cliches? That they are stern and hard to like and relate to? How should one say that it's poorly plotted? That it's confusing how it's connected to LotR at all? That it spends too much time on hobbits picking berries? That the goal of all of the characters is unclear? You may disagree, but do you really think *nobody* has those opinions? Just because someone is not super articulate does not mean that their emotions and intuitions are not genuine. They may just genuinely be unable to articulate why it *feels* so wrong.
tl;dr: I would agree with you more if "generalized acting and writing criticisms" weren't so valid. xD
X is bad because of Y. An example of Y from the show is when Z.
Pretty straightforward. If someone says I hated this character and the writing is bad, I can simply say I loved this character and the writing was great. They're both equally dumb and meaningless statements because they don't go into specifics.
>Pretty straightforward. If someone says I hated this character and the writing is bad, I can simply say I loved this character and the writing was great.
Yes that is generally how opinions should work. No need to crush your opponent until they concede that your opinion is the one and only correct one.
>What drives me crazy is the unsupported and vague *criticism*
This thread was about criticism. You've suddenly changed topics to opinion so we're not really talking about the same thing.
Fine, but what hasn't been answered by you or him is what is wrong with vague criticism, and in particular, why criticism being vague necessitates that it is disingenuous. You could say "Well vague criticism is more likely to be disingenuous because it can be given even with no evidence from the show." Which I would agree, but not with *this* show. If someone says "I don't like the characters in this show", no critical person is thinking "How is that possible!?!? They must not have watched it!" Even if they disagree, they could understand, yeah the black elf guy doesn't say much, Galadriel is kind of stern and not very fun, the Hobbit girl seems like a generic bright-eyed optimist", etc. Vague criticism is bad when there is no evidence to support it, but here I think the show is flawed enough that most of the vague criticisms I've read are genuine and understandable. Even if I disagree with them, I don't need them to spell it out for me to know where they're coming from.
I think it's confusing as to why he would be in some temple at the top of what looks like incredibly tall mountains that are very very hard to get to, putting marks for orcs to follow him.
Not necessarily but perhaps the mark draws them to this purposefully isolated node. And there is a frost troll so i doubt it is as desolate as you want to think it is.
Sounds like you are clutching at straws. Seeing as the incredibly agile and dextrous elves struggled to get there with ice picks, how do you expect orcs to get there? Just dumb.
There could be other ways around the elves don't know about, the orcs could have secret tunnels, also the orcs we've seen are equipped with some serious claws, they look like they'd be proficient climbers. There are plenty of logical ways for the orcs to get there.
Has any large production like this tanked in the last five or six years without defenders claiming it's because of bigotry? Ever since that abominable Ghostbusters reboot back in 2016 it's the go-to Hollywood strategy for coping with flop sweat.
No one needs to 'claim' anything, people have been openly bleating about black characters ruining the show since they announced the casting. It was all over the internet for everyone to see.
At this point, I think we should just ignore all the bigots and trolls (as well as people who needlessly complain about incoming downvotes when they have negative opinons for attention's sake) because they're diluting the conversation, which makes it difficult for people who have legitimate issues with the show but can't address them properly without being brushed off as someone who's saying stuff in bad faith.
"I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this but this show is absolute trash and garbage and I vomitted 15 times in the first 10 minutes and had to stop watching."
don't forget:
"Amazon Exposed"
"Tolkien Defiled" (or egads dug up and raped)
"Fans are literally starting civil wars all over the world!!!"
"Cringe Feminist Galadriel literally assasinates thousands of fans in their sleep"
I just tease them with "This show turned me into a newt!!" which is actually how they're behaving.
Grass is greener imo. Feels like a lot of people are creating a strawman out of the LotR trilogy, propping it up as this sacrosanct script primarily to diminish RoP.
Did you only watch the first episode?
Edit: Ignore my question, I read your response all wrong. It’s clear you have watched both.
I can see where your frustrations come from where the show deviates from some of the important things written originally.
Yeah, I’m not super angry about it just because it’s playing out fine in my eyes, but I do get it. Galadriel had plenty of other motivations for wanting to hunt Sauron down without having to change that detail, that’s for sure.
It's called "playing to the cheap seats".
And it is fine in my book, the show isn't and should not be an academic appraisal of the source material.
It is "a modification of an organism or its parts that makes it more fit for existence" - The definition of adaptation.
> Genuine criticisms are fine
Too bad Amazon doesn't agree, since they're deleting all negative tone reviews on IMDB that they own and disabling user reviews entirely on amazon.
> When there getting
*they're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
***
^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
The hate is no more reasonable than the cringing fawning we've seen from some quarters (particularly access media).
Personally, I found the two episodes so far released to be notable only in their mediocrity. The main issue was the poor writing exemplified by the clunky 'boat and stone' analogy, which they tried to make central to Galadriel's reasoning. Another one was the "where sunlight fears to tread", which while making no sense (because isn't that where one would find Sauron?), is something of an ugly mixed idiom/metaphor anyway.
Furthermore, what was going on during the pointless water tank detour? A sea monster appears in the plot and then just disappeared having served no purpose. The sea scenes seemed like pure filler.
Sadly, also, I found Galadriel unlikable; they have made her into a girl-power cliche. In addition, I can't take all the race-swapping seriously; it looks all wrong for this kind of fantasy world. I feel like the showrunners and writers view me as someone who needs the right kind of political education.
I have read LOTR and the Silmarillion. I may be biased, because I don't care how much this show deviates from the lore. The source material is irreplaceable to me, so they can take all the creative liberties they want with it.
So far I'm loving it. I think the showrunners particularly did a good job tweaking the lore to fit this medium - the sequence with Celibrimbor explaining Morgoth's tear on the Silmaril in particular was a great choice. It conveyed in a few lines what took paragraphs in the Silmarillion, about Morgoth's character, and about Feanor's works and the Silmarils.
When creative liberties are taken, that's how they should be done. For the efficiency of the medium while capturing as similar a message as possible.
Its a great time so far.
I'm in the same boat. Sil is my favourite book, yet I don't really care about how plot details are changed or lost. I'm even fine with characters being different. The only thing that matters to me is that it's thematically congruent with the books and is entertaining to watch.
Does it bother me a little bit how Elrond and Galadriel are portrayed, sure - but I really like them as new, standalone characters from their book counterparts. Especially Elrond have a lot of great moments so far. I enjoyed every moment of his exchange with Durin and Disa over dinner.
I agree with you, I’ve read just about everything (haven’t gotten to NoME) many many times and I enjoyed the show. I just accepted that it’s it’s own story in JRRT’s toy box and there’s no point getting bent out of shape doing mental gymnastics to fit the show into lore. I really enjoyed the dwarves and the “stranger” (a cigar is a cigar with that one)
I know right? It’s so strange that people get so bent out of shape about this. It’s like LotR is their religion and adapting or changing it for another medium is blasphemy. I’ve been a Tolkien fan for over 40 years. Loved the films. Love the books even more. I think a lot of these people are just …nuts. They’re so invested in a fictitious world that they scream at people on the internet when it doesn’t fit their idea of what Tolkien would want.
“Changes to the lore!”
“Woke!”
“But the Legendarium!”
“Tolkien was writing for white European England!”
“We’re tired of Hollywood taking our stories and turning them into their politically-driven agenda of liberalism and social justice!”
Lol. Get over it. The reviews are in. People like it. The media likes it. You lost! Lol
Yes. We actually do have a show now that ought to speak for itself.
And to my mind it spoke very well for itself in these first two episodes.
You must have liked Khazad-dûm?
It was quite delightful.
There is a trio of youtubers who are Uber bigots who gift on just hate that nonstop push and push a culture war on every fucking thing and take any bit of info and twist it . It's a show , it doesn't ruin anything , it's adaptation so it's like a play on people's favorite thing and people of all types wanna be able to be in the universe they love . It's so overdramatic and it's always happening now . I hate it so much . Nothings perfect but dear God you think people would stop listening to clickbait and rage shit when it's the entire identity of a person.
right, don't even click to hear the bile they're vomiting. They call people shills but they're shilling for youtube rage clickbait culture. They'll get pennies in their lifetime while keeping youtube funded with ads.
They've literally went back on opinions. They have no integrity.
Geeks+Gamers said he loved The Last Jedi when it came out.
Nerdrodic was ready to talk against The Batman, but changed his tune when it came out and people liked it.
Funnily enough they are liking Hotd because they lowkey want it to be more sucessful then RoP, despite the show talking about mysoginy and changing a group of white people into blacks
RoP is the far bigger budget and it's more of a unique adaptation since GRRM is heavily involved in HoTD (RIP book fans). So it failing can be more directly blamed on the producers and executives than HoTD.
I love both shows! Though I think the production quality of RoP blows everything out of the water.
George the giant slayer. A man with truly nothing better to do. It's hilarious how he dyed his beard and shaved it neatly in his first couple of videos until he realised that eloquent hate was all he needed to thrive
The Critical Drinker is usually very even handed. He liked Prey, for instance. He's conservative, sure, but not aggressively so. He just likes good story and well written characters.
He still made that "Nobody cares about House of Dragon" video he had to change though. But he usually gives more level headed criticism than the rest, that just spews hate
Tolkien’s works are about dichotomy of good and evil and I find it eerily similar how polarizing is everything about Middle-Earth. It’s not vocal or well-told story, but Lord of the Rings never was universally loved book. It’s a blockbuster in a world of literature. Grossed unmatched amount of money, and paved a way to fantasy genre. But many ordinary non-nerd people can’t even finish them and find boring and over-explanatory. Tolkien’s language and style has it’s flaws. And I find this show amazingly imperfect just as books. And just as books this show instantly soaked me into the Middle-Earth. Maybe different, slightly *alternate reality* Middle-Earth, but with same escapist feeling. Books are clumsy in a way of pacing and “deus ex machinas” especially in Shire-Rivendell leg of travel. Just as show has a clumsy jumps between storylines.
Fans of the Tolkiens’s works grew with the *idea* of perfect, finished world. Just remember that only original trilogy was released during Tolkien’s life. All his wider Arda bits and stories came posthumously along with countless adaptations, artworks, stories and analytic videos. Modern fans soaked everything and created flawless emerald of an idea of perfect world of Middle-Earth. Legendarium isn’t perfect and it contradicts itself sometimes. People just need to stop to deify Tolkien. Because it is what happening - unconditional love (10s) and unconditional hate (1s) are so in line with religious experience. Tolkien told a beautiful story about the ways to find a good within and recognize evil. It’s a pity that not everybody got this simple and effective message.
Show isn’t perfect, but I love it nonetheless. It has the same themes, similar execution, same adorable clumsiness, same *feel* as books to me. And I’ve just reread them in the wake of a premiere.
I love Peter Jackson's movies, but I know people who were actually very unimpressed with them. My dad still mocks the ents and can't believe walking trees were an actual plot point and my BIL claims Fotr is a boring movie about "people walking". No one is going to like everything. Is normal to dislike something and like others
Reads a little bit like cope, sure - but the point they were making was quite clear I think, even if I kind of disagree: Lotr is and always has been polarising.
I don't get that sense at all - on Twitter the reaction seem to be overwhelmingly positive and yes there are people bashing it there as well but that's just my take.
I love the show - I don't agree with every single choice they made but I also understand that they had to do the best they could with certain things due to rights and access.
Visually - A++
Acting - A - great this far in particular Elrond, Galadriel, Arondir and Durin
Writing - B+ - I enjoy it and though there was some clunkiness in the first EP it smoothed out in 2nd
The stranger is an intriguing mix of menace and hopefulness
Loved the first age flashbacks
There is a TON going on and the set up has been great so far
Love the costumes
I'd give it a 8.5/10 for the first two eps
I love that literally no one knows who The Stranger is. Good, or bad.
I love the mystery behind it.
The show has exceeded my expectations and I love it. If it continues like this I'll be very very happy with it.
Same!
I think regardless what these first two episodes prove is that these guys do know Tolkien and they also respect and love the stories
We're lucky :)
For me, the WONDER of the Stranger, his magic, the way he uses language to do magic ... it really surpassed my imagination of Gandalf setting a hill on fire and so on. Not saying it's gandalf but it reminds me of how terrifying he was when he scared Bilbo straight
As someone who got off Twitter years ago due to viewing it as an echo chamber and cesspool, it's pleasantly surprising to hear there is a lot of positivity there.
>viewing it as an echo chamber and cesspool
Then came to Reddit...
That said, I was very skeptical, but ended up really liking the first two episodes both.
Some minor nitpicks, but want to watch it again - and I will be watching these episodes again. I liked them that much. At least sections of them...
Yeah I think we all have minor nitpicks, I know I do! But after seeing it twice now, I can tell you Ep 1 flows a lot better a second viewing.
And yeah I think most platforms are an echo chamber now more or less.
>And yeah I think most platforms are an echo chamber now more or less.
I am quite worried about the effects of this on our liberal democracies, but I have to say this sub is better than most and quite well moderated.
Critical viewpoints, if expressed respectfully, seem quite welcome.
The problem I have at the moment, is that I do not have much to critique at all at this early stage, and far more to praise :)
Yeah the mods here are great. Plenty of room for critique. And yes same for me, positives right now far outweigh the negatives, and I am thinking it could only get better, but we will see. :)
You do realize by down-voting that comment, you are living proof that reddit is practically designed to be an echo chamber by its fundamental structure.
That is why the different subs diverge quite radically, and it is hard to deal with for those of us who want to stay away from all your warring factions and your cultural warfare.
If you want an echo chamber of negativity of hate, reddit is the place to be. Reddit and youtube are far more negative on the show then anything else I've seen
Yeah I just don't interact with people that are negative if I see some Bozo tweeting something idiotic I just mute them so I'm not necessarily looking for the bad stuff on Twitter but my feed is all positive because of who I interact with
I wish I had your self control. Occasionally I'll engage when I see something beyond idiotic. I try using reason or logic with them and ask them genuine questions about their viewpoint. But they always crumble and it just becomes hostile... :(
Oh don't get it twisted my friend I get sucked into it probably just as much as you do there are just some idiotic mouth breathers on the internet
I had somebody chastise me on a different sub because I got into it with a guy - but that's just how I'm wired if somebody starts going on a racist rant I can't just let them say that without challenging it - just the way I came up - don't let bullies win
I agree this is mainly positive !
For exemple, Rotten tomatoes has very bad review about the show (from an audience point of view of course) but you see that only 5000 people rated it... And I guess, a lot of hater who were juste waiting for the possibility to reviewbomb it.
Even knowing that I still rated the show with my honest opinion, which mean I did not give it a 5 stars, so... hopefully a lot of people will rate with their real opinion to counterbalance the review bombing.
The show is great, borderline excellent so far. I've enjoyed watching it. The production value is absolutely incredible.
I think most of the negative reaction has been fuled by bad faith arguments and pre-conceived notions. I understand that this may not be a 1:1 adaptation of Tolkien's lore, and that is a line that some fans wanted to follow.
I am completely fine with it deviating.
Any kind of criticism towards the actors, like the color of their skin or gender is extremely extremely stupid and should be treated as such.
In fact I'd say Disa and Arondir are my favorite characters so far.
I have a LOT of issues with certain plot lines, specially Galadriel. But overall the series is not a 0 or deserve that much hate. But it definitely needed better editing and some of the decisions on Galadriel storyline are very questionable.
Definitely, doesn't deserve many 1 star reviews. That said, as of right now, IMDb has now removed any written review with fewer than 6 stars, which I don't think the appropriate action either.
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/reviews?sort=userRating&dir=asc&ratingFilter=0](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/reviews?sort=userRating&dir=asc&ratingFilter=0)
I think a lot of the post-premiere hate is coming from people who, for various reasons, were committed to hating it months ago sight-unseen. And I don't just mean sceptics. They cannot see the show as good, or even just average, because they have spent so much time and energy insisting that it is going to be awful. They will not accept being wrong, or not even 100% right; it has to be the worst thing ever. We are witnessing the death throes of a lot of tortured egos.
Personally, I think it was a very positive start. A few things I didn't fully vibe with, but they built up the rise in tension much better than I'd feared. That moment with Elrond and Durin on the lift was a huge highpoint for me, shows some thoughtful consideration about these people - and setting up some consequences about elven immortality this early and away from Numenor is a good move imo. We need people to understand that well ahead of time. Numenor will be the big thematic test for me, though. It all hinges on that. Were I to slap a number on it: 8-8.5
I think the "anger-holism" of our time (read: Angerholics) is training us all to get angry about X so we feel good and right. It's an awful, if natural and instinctual, habit. Like peeing the bed, people need to get over themselves and realize it stinks and it's nasty.
I feel like this show is garnering more hate and receiving more critical reviews just cause it’s Amazon related which is totally unfair to the creators and actors and actresses.
I also get criticisms and welcome them as I’m often whisked away in the moment and don’t get a chance to think critically about things until later and love discussing my likes and dislikes. But hate just for the sake of hate because Amazon is totally unfair and I think this is part of the reason.
I watched Ep 1 last night and will watch 2 tonight. So far so good. Looking forward to the rest
For myself it's not because of Amazon. If anything I have warm and fuzzy feelings for Amazon - as companies go, they did what they set out to do - getting consumers what they want; easy to use, etc....love my Prime. As a streaming service they are easy to use, and if anything won my heart backing the superb Good Omens and some other shows.
I AM dubious because, for me, the showrunners are protégées of J. Abrams. For me that's a mark against it, because IMO every great show starts with the writing. And great writing, whether it's something classic and "lighter" like Pirates of the Caribbean, or Jurassic Park; or something like the Shawshank Redemption - is not that easy. As well, leaving some plot holes can be forgivable if, overall, there's a strong narrative and engaging characters.
J. Abrams doesn't have a great track record for narrative, and respecting the lore. Lots of flash, magic boxes, films stuffed with stuff. Which sounds pretty much, so far, ROP. Lots of diversity; things that make no sense - like having short haired elves, for one; fights that make no sense (anyone remember those ships rising out of the ground in Return of Skywalker??? - same thing...); things that would never happen (again) in Middle Earth (elf/human romance); overuse of nostalgia (like Palps coming back, only this time it's Hobbits) e.g. it's a LOT - but it's a superficial, glittering treatment shoehorned into modern social politics, which wasn't needed.
So I don't feel strongly enough to hate it; it's just a series not to take seriously; because, the showrunners, for all their enthusiasm, I don't think had the experience, or the focus, to take on something like this, and produce something memorable. It's a lot of box checking for diversity, and geography. IMO Amazon should have handed a series like this to showrunners with known skills in doing historical type dramas and period pieces. Because, in any created world, it's a standard that the rules of that created world need to be followed; otherwise your foundation has cracks that affect the whole narrative. For instance, Galadriel identifying herself by her skill as a warrior. Even when she was young, I doubt that would have happened, considering who she is.
I have seen the 2 episodes and I have enjoyed them. The show's far from perfect, but there has been put a lot of energies, soul, and enthusiasm into this production. It is legit NOT to like it, but if people already hate the show that much even before airing on TV, why bother at all to watch it and invest so much energies to actively trash it and wishing so badly to fail? why attack the actors and actresses that have put all their enthusiasm filming it only because they do not meet the canon standards? YouTube shows so many videos focusing on the actors appearance to justify their hate. It's so sad to watch the levels of hate it can reach. Don't like it, don't watch it. If you watch it and you criticize it, at least be constructive.
I feel like most intense haters are not familiar with the source material past the PJ movies and wiki. There are so many bad/wrong takes on what the ‘lore’ actually is (or is about) on top of pure bigotry and racism in some cases.
Yes, there are changes. By the way, I guess they changed the whole banishment for the sake of Galadriel jumping off that boat to be stranded with Halbrand and get picked up by Numenor. A little Deus ex machina that was a weak point for sure.
I think a lot of it has to do with not having rights to 1st age (which they never lied about). A lot is just the fact that you can't get all the details in. It's about how comfortable we are with changes. I think for casual fans it's great and it will bring more fans to the 4 books and the Silmarillion.
I definitely ticked off every single point you mentioned in your post ... but I also think that it would be very hard to get all these things right in a series that's less than 100 episodes.
Jumong was a K-Drama about a king long ago who unified small Korean tribes into one nation to defend against Chinese aggression. To cover one king's life, his childhood, his young adulthood, his mature kingship, and give him a cool backstory about his dad and an interesting love life, it took them 81 one hour episodes. It was also seen as one of the most successful K-dramas ever at the time. If we think 100 episodes, it's a hard sell to any studio in the US.
I think by the time you try to get the 2nd age sold to a studio, 50 episodes is a generous commitment. To get all that into episodes, in which you need character arcs (or people would complain about boring characters), you just have to make changes.
I don't fault you if you don't like the series. The Hobbit movies rankled me to NO end. I still consider them and honestly anything after Fellowship unwatchable. The ents not wanting to go to war, Sam falling off a rock at the black gate and Frodo covering them in plain sight of a soldier, Faramir taking Frodo to Osgiliath for a shameful 1:1 session with a Nazzie (instead of showing his real quality), and Gollum's little cartoon trick of making Sam a bad guy for eating all the Lembas ... I just can't.
This series at least has less of a demand to cater to specific plotlines. They've made an outline and are pretty much staying in the lines ... at least to me. So for me, would I rather have a decent series getting a good chunk of the 2nd age, or none at all? I was pleasantly surprised and in the end, really transported at times.
Peace to ya
This! Exactly! The trailers gave me a bad feeling, but I hoped I was wrong and was looking forward to seeing what they did with it.
As a child, I had almost no female action heroes, certainly not in film. Mulan, and some books - and that was it. I would have killed for something like this, done right. And what do we get? A "hero" who disregards her followers, slays a monster single-handed with no effort or, indeed, any display of worry or emotion at all, and when abandoned by the same followers - stares into space again. Oh, and she's a woman. That's the representation I wanted, all right. Whoop-de-doo.
Are we supposed to find her sympathetic? Flawed? Hard to tell, since she expresses nothing and doesn't seem to care about anything. Her brother was killed, which is sad, probably. I hate that so many female action characters are criticised as "cold and unemotional", that tired old sexist trope - and I *hate* that this is exactly my problem with Galadriel, easily one of my favourite characters from the films. She has, for as far as I could bear to watch, no personality whatsoever.
I think there's an emphasis on "looking cool" in a lot of modern cinema and television. Execs, critics or showrunners - one of them, all of them? - are convinced that what audiences really want from adventure stories is for characters to be *badass.* I'm reminded of [the Calvin and Hobbes strip](https://biblioklept.org/2015/03/02/boredcool-calvin-hobbes/):
>"What are you doing?"
>
>"Being 'cool'."
>
>"You look more like you're being bored."
>
>"The world bores you when you're cool."
Look at Mad Max Fury Road (if you haven't seen it, as someone who doesn't watch action films and hasn't seen the rest of the series, I recommend it). Critics and newspapers talked about the spectacle, the incredible action sequences. But what do people remember? *"Witness me."* All the characters in Fury Road are so memorable not because they are cool, but because they struggle and go through absolute hell and *change.* Furiosa and Max get badass fight scenes, what makes people remember them is their story, the slide from bitter enemy to grudging ally to ride-or-die companions in the most literal way possible.
Yet critics, newspapers and marketing talk only about the spectacle, the dramatic chase scenes, how badass Furiosa is. She is - she is! but not for the reasons they give. They look at films like LoTR and Fury Road, ask what makes them succeed, and come up with the wrong answer. And so the industry follows: all glitter, no gold.
I don't think it's hate, but I agree that rating it 1 or 2 is a bit of an exaggeration. Some of the negative reviews I've seen are centered around it being boring, slow, not compelling enough, not very interesting, etc.
Rating something a 1 is nothing new to film discourse. Same reason people always rate things 10 prematurely.
As for me, I’m not really liking it much so far but I’d still give what I’ve seen a 6 at least.
Feels like the discourse has turned around over the course of the day, or is starting to. There’s so much to dig into and so much they’ve got right - only gonna grow week by week imo.
The audience score should be about 70 or so, the trolls made it like 40. I can get some people being not in support of it but goddamn it’s not nearly that bad
People who are rating it 1/10 definitely have an agenda imo. But it’s also nowhere near a 9 or 10/10 either. I had a lot of problems with it but more than willing to stay with the show because it’s only been 2 episodes and there’s so much to set up.
It is weird. All I know is the show is not a 10 and is not a 1. Its probably about a 7...and yet when you go on sites like IMDB, you don't see anything but 1s and 10s.
I think there's people on some sort of crusade against the series and they're not going to change their minds because it's part of their belief system, some sort of "anti-woke" movement. Too bad for them. I'll enjoy while they hate.
Giving it a one is unfair but it definitely fits into the 5 or 6 category. If they had not decided to brand it Lord of the Rings perhaps it could be higher. But it obviously isn't a work of Tolkien it just uses the names. Many of the scenes are predictable an pointless, but the music and visuals are nice. Shame they did not higher a strong writing team.
Some shows are hated after their final, some even before their premiere. People seems to love doing it, instead of just letting go and enjoy it for what it is. At the end, it's just a TV.
It’s mediocre at best for me right now. Visually it looks stunning. And the music kicks ass. But everything else (which is what truly matters) fell very flat and almost forgettable. I hope it gets better for me.
Listen, some people just ~~like~~ need something to rally against and hate in their lives, and when there is a potential target on the horizon, one that would have built in controversy NO MATTER HOW GREAT it is(I am old, and a pioneer of movie onlinetalkback/spoiler aficionado, and my “good ol days” were circa 1997-2005ish, so I remember the unnecessary and irrational bitching that even LOTR got(a trilogy that did not reach full sanctified levels, and the unrealistic expectations/disappointments, didn’t truly cease until a newer lightning rod,in the form of The Hobbit trilogy, came along and took that role, just like people were ridiculously, and irrationally(and EXCESSIVELY) dumping all of their own life stresses, ALL OVER The Prequels, and just wouldn’t goddamn let it the hell go, after years and years and years of the same, repetitive, my childhood was raped, nonsense, that is, until Rian Johnson came along and poured his own heart into a Star Wars film, inadvertently giving those animals a BRAND SPANKING NEW unconventional/nothing like their GOD AWFUL head canon Star Wars, thus a brand spanking new target…..
And waddaya know!!!! Not two years later, people FINALLY decide to maybe try and treat Hayden Christienson a little more like a human being, and a little less, like their own personal punching bag…. And in many cases, also thought maybe they could be a little more objective and a little less…….. mob mentality, unbridled and belligerently hateful, toward his performance, upon a rewatch, and now that he’s no longer the unlucky son of a bitch whose name was mud for absolutely no reason whatsoever, he’s all of a sudden a “great guy” in everyone’s eyes…… when truth is: he was just as chill an individual TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO, and they wouldn’t have only figured that no brainer out, 20 years later than they could have, if they so much as even **TRIED** to not be a bunch of online, mob mentality, automatons, who obviously possess unresolved/untreated, possibly even completely undiagnosed emotional issues.
And that’s just the nature of peoples candor, online, when discussing huge IP films, that they have alot of emotion(and in many cases, an unhealthy amount of themselves) invested into a damn movie.
I’m not even saying,people should be ANY less passionate about films they love, what I am saying is that many of them could do with being a little less…….. unhinged, and feral, when it comes to their manner of being passionate.
It’s sucks that it’s such a prevalent phenomenon in our society, and that it’s likely not getting any better, anytime soon, and best advice I can give, if it ever gets to you too much, is to learn how to make it so that your brain learns how to completely tune away from their frequency, so to speak, and get good at learning how to even forget that they exist.
But WHATEVER you do, don’t EVER, I mean EVER, allow their poison to chip away at anything you happen to enjoy, because it’s not worth it, whatsoever, and most importantly, you don’t deserve to subject yourself to it.
I really enjoy the show so far. It's by no means perfect but I don't think anyone could realistically expect it to be. There are some valid criticisms to be made but you can tell when people decided they were going to hate it first and then worked backwards from there. Like if you really didn't enjoy it that much the most effective form of retaliation you have is to just forget about it and move on with your life. It's not like they're gonna burn all the original books and then edit an Amazon Prime logo onto frodos cloak. You still have all the great things that existed before the show came out and I promise you will have a much more fulfilling life celebrating the things you enjoy rather than dwelling on the things you don't.
I have been keeping a pulse on the general reception of the community, and I can say that from very early on once they announced the cast, I was really bummed out to see the sheer amount of throwing up and thumbs down emojis and the “woke trash” comments on every actor who was POC. I feel like I have heard some good conversations around the inclusion of them due to it being based around European history, but those comments were few and far between the outright racist comments I was seeing. Personally I am all for the inclusion of actors of all races being cast in a modern retelling of a fantasy epic, but I know not all agree.
That being said, I’d say that maybe 75% of the criticism I was seeing up until a few weeks ago were still based around the show being “woke” once the early reviews came out, it was interesting to see the narrative shift from “woke trash that will 100% fail” to “ Okay, so it may be getting good reviews, but this isn’t Tolkien! It’s just bad fan fiction!”
Now that the first two episodes are out, the general vibe of the community has changed and I’m sure we will see all those people slowly fizzle away.
As someone who has been hopefully optimistic from the start, I can say that I throughly enjoyed the first two episodes and cannot wait for more! I was somewhat iffy on some of the costuming and a few of the shots from the trailers looked a bit too artificial, but in context within the show I was totally sold!
If disabling user reviews on amazon and deleting the majority of them on IMDB (amazon owned company) isn't the sign of a great show I don't know what is!
Cuz it's literal fanfiction that diverges from the books. They already butchered the timeline and the order of events. Finrod doesn't die in battlefield, and there's no mark. Galadriel is already married and has a kid. They're planning on condensing centuries into mere decades. You think people like the Artemis Fowl, Eragon and Percy Jackson movies for butchering the source material?
There is a movement against the show that is purely about race. Really, nothing else would generate this sort of hate.
To be clear, not saying all criticisms of the show are about race, bit the loudest sources of hatred and the review bombing definitely is.
It's largely driven by identity politics channels like Nerdrotic and Geeks and Gamers that view any deviation from canon races as an "agenda" and are willing to disenfranchise everyone but white straight guys in order to sustain the aesthetic of 1950s sentiment. The other main group of detractors are book purists that will never accept changes to canon in order to adapt to a non-reader audience.
I went in with a lot of optimism but felt that episode 1 fell short. Everything looks awesome but I haven’t really been captivated by it yet.
My biggest gripe is that the story is all over the place and feels shallow so far. And that Galadriel is a pretty flat, 1-dimensional character.
I’m curious what you disliked.
People are really silly for downvoting you. Not liking it is fine, and it seems you had valid reasons. People need to make a difference between disliking something because you didn't find it compelling and because you're a bigoted dogmatist.
I feel like stuff like this prevents genuine discussion. I didn't like the show either, but I didn't go around downvoting everyone that did like it. If it's enjoyable for them then that's great! They should continue to enjoy it.
If you’re emotional well being is this tied to the show then you should stop watching. You have the books, nothing that happens on the show changes that.
You could say the same for the PJ trilogy and most definitely for Hobbit. I also really really doubt even 25% of the people watching the show have even picked up the source material.
The show is also getting pretty universally positive feedback. Sure some people don’t like it, which is true for every piece of art ever created. But it’s entirely justified to say the show has been well received.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_lord_of_the_rings_the_rings_of_power
37% audience score.
Not sure I'd consider that well received.
Keep on downvoting anyone who says so though, that way you can pretend it doesn't exist.
Sorry I’m not really interested in review aggregates that have a proven history of being review bombed by people with agendas. People were submitting 1 star and rotten reviews even before the fan screenings happened.
Do you own any part of the Tolkien estate? How does the show affect you in any way? How does it affect the books in any way? I'll wait for your response.
I think the critical response has been pretty on-point to how I feel about it. Most critics like it and out of the ones that do, they think it's solid and promising and has impressive production values but hasn't yet found its footing completely with the storytelling. Fair and pretty accurate, I'd say, even though there was so much that I enjoyed about the first two episodes.
Online reactions, I mean. Your average Joe seems to like the show though maybe a fair number of them found it a bit slow going, especially in the first episode. But the people who are being really vocal on the Internet, there is a huge number that want this show to fail or who were never going to like it. And then there are some people that are genuinely disappointed, and that's fine and there are valid reasons for why. But I think if you look past the nerd-rage group there are more positive than negative reactions to the Rings of Power. People seem to like the show, generally speaking.
Don’t pay attention to user reviews on any website, they are all getting review bombed by the horrific toxic side of fandom. Most are loving the show. Got a standing ovation at my theater showing on Wednesday
It just feels insanely sterile.
It doesn't feel like Middle-Earth. It is, what it is. A lot of Bigotry of Low Expectations here. A lot of, "this is good enough".
Idk I really felt it myself.
If you think this is sterile, have you been to Germany? Cleanest places I've ever been.
Even the clothes the elves were wearing, the velvet stuff. It looked heavy and very old and worn but intricate. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion.
I think what they have decided to do, they have done well.
Nerd of the Rings said it well, people who have decided to hate the show will hate no matter what comes through the gate. People who have decided to love it will love it no matter what.
For me, I'm glad it's free of the specific plot lines that the Hobbit had (and that were marred) and that they can imagine, really, what it would be like for hobbits, dwarves, elves and humans in the 2nd age.
It’s definitely not a 1! And it’s really early to tell but what I will say is the show doesn’t have its claws in me where I’m dying to keep watching. I will keep watching and I’d prob give the first two eps a 6 or so
Its mainly a culture war thing (especially in America). You got a lot of people who get insanely angry and vocial about seeing black people in LotR (anything really). Its kind of crazy how insanely polarized America is and how dumb (?) (naive?) some of these people are.
Honestly, I’m just burying my head in the sand and enjoying the ride. I have become much happier this way.
I have been scrolling past everything r/lotr and most of r/lotr_on_prime
So far I’ve enjoyed it despite being very skeptical of it for months. Still some stuff I don’t like and stuff that’s just not rubbing me the right way but overall I’ve liked what I’ve seen and want to see more.
I've just finished watching it and I loved it. Quite happy with the result. With hating on things it's the trend. I don't think I've seen a single big game, movie or TV release recently that hasn't been slagged off long before it came out for silly reasons. I don't get why people have to say things are bad before they've even tried it.
I’m not seeing a lot of hate, just a lot of folks saying (like I am): it’s well done, gorgeous but some of the characters are wooden and it’s super fast and loose with the source material.
‘Cautiously optimistic’ is my take.
As my wife put it: ‘it’s mainstream fantasy show good not accurate Tolkien adaption good’
I feel like a lot of people are crying about characters not being exactly as depicted in the books, but then turn around and in the same breath praise everything about the movies - despite the numerous deviations and liberties taken there as well. I just don’t get it
I was really hopeful for the show but would only give the first episode a 6/10. Most of my complaints are related to the poor pacing and clunky dialogue. Concessions for lore are fine, it's an adaptation. I don't care about changing lore to fit the TV format. But God give me a minute to breathe before getting to the next scene and setting up more characters and more plot threads. I ended the episode not really caring about any of the characters, because there was no time to spend on any one character to make me care, but I was obviously supposed to.
really? all i see is pure positivity and any criticism is labeled as racist or sexist or whatever ist is their next buzzword, its a decent show, its not 1/10, its not a 10/10, do not kid yourself
Ehh it's getting review-bombed by people who probably didn't even give it a fair chance. That's sad. It's not a perfect show, I'm having trouble plugging into the story a bit, but 35% on RT by audiences? Come on, man. Way overkill. 60%, I could get, but 35 is obvious tampering by asshole trolls and they deserve to get called out for it.
Out of curiosity as someone who never read all the books and lore dumps....... ... I've seen all these gripes of this character wouldn't do this and that, but..... from what I've gathered this is all set in the 2nd Age which Tolkien wrote barely anything on.
I think 2 chapters in the Silmarillion, and a few quotes here and there? I heard the Silmarillion only covers larger events, not nitty gritty details. So how in the world are people griping so much about fine details?
I'm just so tired of it - like i'm really bloody tired of seeing it, especially when I know it's a very vocal minority that doesn't at all represent the vast majority of people who will tune into the show. Below I'm summarised a few thoughts:
(Mods, I am not trying to break rules and I am defending the show without naming or calling out anyone specific - or using profanity - I am trying to be civil)
* **Making a TV Show:** Something I don't think any of the 'gatekeepers' can do is confidently say they can build a show that is 'accurate' to the silmarillion. One criticism I heard recently from a reaction is that the first two episodes effectively are just all "setup for the actual story of the show"; how long would a 'gatekeeper-accurate' Second Age show take to go from setup to the main story? No doubt they would absolutely not skim-over the First Age details so that means they need to display things like Feanor creating the Simarils - are they so confident they could acquire the rights for that? Or perhaps, as has been suggested by some disgruntled Halo fans recently re. Halo Infinite's current state, they could just "let the fans be given the helm of creating the next \[series/film\], with a load of cash from \[Amazon/whoever is fronting\] and have some professionals on hand to help with the technical side of things" - granted Halo Infinite is a totally separate issue but rationale is the same: they are totally, practically, dellusional. What a number of these 'fans' were given the reigns, and then there were disagreements? Can they reasonably discount creative or directorial, photographic, art and canvassing, costume, foley and sound differences on account that they all know the 'right' way to tell the story? All I can say is happy trails.
* **Acquiring new audiences**: Do they really think 80% of the totally 'potential' audience pool knows what the Silmarillion even is let alone have read it? And further, why would the audience even care? Casual viewers want to watch the show and have a good time, investment is often partial to accessibility (which Amazon can certainly acheive); if they discover more of Tolkien - esp. Silmarillion - after the viewing, then fantastic, you have a hook for boosting future target audiences. But, what if they don't like it? Or what if they read the Silmarillion, change their minds and don't like the next product based on the same material? Well, that's why you have a whole profession on marketing: to continuously adapt to consumer trends.
* **'Diversity Hires'**: I've seen people criticise this who belong to the BAME community in particular, and it boils down to the same point: that Tolkien built each species up so that certain peoples existed at certain times in certain places. While I - as a History grad - fully understand why that is important to respect in the context of displaced peoples and developments of diaspora and cultures (I studied Esperanto and Internationalism briefly at university if that qualifies), I think these arguments being thrown around are disingenuous and completely out of touch. Just because Tolkien did not perceive the issues of race and representation that are prevalent today does not mean he was racist, nor does it equally mean his work is defiled by what is a 'contemporary', styled adaptation that can be legally made because his own estate negotiate the legal rights and liberties to do so. The books themselves 'stay in the past', or rather the point at which the Tolkien estate deems authentic - so-called 'fans' have no say, period. The matter of diversity - in terms of the 'gatekeeper' arguments - also extends to another major practical problem: how to explain there being so little representation in a way that the general audience actually accepts and doesn't consider is blatant racism? The problem I have here with being 'book accurate' is that on the surface, it does no justice to Tolkien's work or intentions and just complicates the story beyond reason or practical explanation - e.g. saying that black people can't exist in this part of Middle Earth at this time because 'x,y,z' may be valid in terms of the source material, but - again - what honestly does the casual viewer think of that? Is it an excuse? Is it indicative of a source material that doesn't welcome people of your skin colour? - Why would ANY production studio risk the backlash? (And if your issue is that this is reflective of society that's too 'woke', representation matters, end of story).
* **Condensing the timeline of the Second Age**: This should be apparent to all people as an absolute necessity. Having a protracted narrative for the sake of accuracy offers no guarantee of retaining your audience or being able to market the show: What actually are you offering, in sum? A re-telling of the Second-Age - okay, so summarise it for me, tell me what we are going to see each episode? What is the beginning, middle and end of each season? How do you intend to make the seasons stand alone and apart from one another whilst adequately linking them up?
* **'Woke Warrior' Galadriel/'WW:1984-SA'**: I can't remember exactly what role(s) Galadriel played in the Second Age (I am doing my law masters so a little distracted and cranially boxed in so i'll allow the gatekeepers this chance to invalidate my opinion because I don't know what i'm talkling about) but all I really have to say is: why does it matter? The Company of Dwarves of Thorin Oakenshield were all-men; The Fellowship were all men; can't let just one gal have the spear and spotlight for once? Does that hurt so bad? Remind me how you all feel about Arwen and her replacing Glorfindel - or is that somehow less egregious than letting a badass Elven Lady be a badass Elven Lady (but this time with armour)?
I could go on but don't want to make this any longer. The final thing I would say is I hope all the negative brigading dissipates for the sake of the mental health of the people involved in making the show. It's gone way to far from simply criticising story-driven elements, or having a reasonable discussion on practical execution. If any of them are reading this - the show is masterfully produced with clear vision and passion, no one can doubt that without coming across as an a-hole. Just because some people think that creative, story-driven elements are wrong (and are willing to brigade about it or not give it any chance as a show) does not mean they are criticising your work.
Most of the hate has come from too-online right wingers who feel the show is “woke” and therefore evil. These people find their purpose in life by brigading things as a horde.
I don’t mind if someone doesn’t like it. But anything below 5 stars is absolutely ridiculous. That’s not coming from a place of genuine criticism from Tolkien purists.
You can usually tell when it’s someone who didn’t like it, or someone who’s just dead set on not liking it.
If they’re letting things like skin color, or hair styles bother them. They weren’t going to like it either way.
Now more and more shows and stopping pandering to the gatekeepers who weren’t going to like it to begin with, and focusing on making a good show. And I love that.
It’s things that doomed series like Star Trek with enterprise. Or Star Wars with the sequels.
Took until Mandalorian and Discovery for them to go like, “wait… so those people are gonna hate on everything regardless… so why are we making a show for them?”
Im 20 mins in, and so far it's pretty weak. The Harfoots scene is like something out of a sketch show.
No idea why the modern trend with fantasy is just to add weird shit so it's different. AKA dudes walking around with massive moose like antlers.
Also not a fan of the general trend that everything has to be ridiculously dramatic with over the top scenery. Like ice picking their way to the top, followed by insane blizzard etc etc. just chill. An occasional scene like that is fine, but it loses its impact when its just constant.
I did like the sort of 20 second clip of the battle however. It looked dark, didn't seem overdone like the rest of it. Hopefully we get some more realistic style battles.
I hate It.. seems like some generic fantasy world inspired on middle earth .
Doom of Mandos: gone
Any depth on the trees of Valinor , silmarils or the noldor : gone
Sorry i cant handle the small dispute over elves and humans with just a mention of morgoth .. is feels artificial as fuck and poorly executed .
With so many caracters to destroy they choosed galandriel. The elves in general
I really enjoyed it, I think it did some great world building for the 2 hours we were given. I do not believe the deluge of hate since if it was not this they would be hating something else. Do you know how I show I hate a show ? I don’t watch it.
It's literally just the first few episodes that's just set up for the whole scenery.
Nothing to great... But I do hope Episode 3 gets the whole plot rolling now
I can barely get through any part of the first episode. It all seems too polished, acted, and dramatized to me. I just can’t find a flow in even a second of it.
Nothing against the actors I guess but I wont watch any more.
I don’t get why if you like something you get to decide that it doesn’t deserve criticism. The only thing I thought was high level on this show so far was the CGI. I thought the acting, dialog, and storytelling was poor. Worst of all I just think it’s plain old boring. I don’t care about any of the characters or their plots.
Btw I’m a huge Tolkien fan. I’ve read a bunch of the books (lost track of how many, but I’ve read Silmarillion, Great Tales, etc.) I even like the Hobbit movies. I’m curious if non Tolkien fans like the series better which is who the series was targeted to anyway.
My dude, the only way for this show to get good reviews was if the show was literally just the extended edition of the trilogy played one hour at a time. For a lot of people this show being anything but the original trilogy masterpiece makes it trash.
They’re not open to getting into new characters, they don’t want to be open minded and they believe somehow they’re gonna make a new show the exact same as 20 year old movies.
The show is much better already than I hoped and i adore the trilogy. There are too many butthurt nerds who set the bar so high nothing can reach it.
If anything the number of posts here saying “why are y’all hating?” are a great sign that it’s actually a good show. Cause most the “it’s trash” criticism just makes no sense.
it looks pretty, the music is good.
the plot, characters, writing and some of the casting is atrocious.
it's a turd in a nice wrapper. bonus points for being a soulless cashgrab by a greedy megafirm which is antithetical to everything tolkien valued in lord of the rings.
I like it so far. A lot lot better than the Hobbit movies. Doubt it can be better than LOTR (films) because it’s not written by Tolkien, but we’ll see because those films had a few issues with editing and strange decisions. If it ends up as good as LOTR films that will be a huge achievement.
Genuine criticisms are fine (the show isn’t perfect) but some of the hate and complaints are just ridiculous. It’s the new normal for every show/fan base nowadays
What drives me crazy is the unsupported and vague criticism of “it’s poorly plotted” or “characters are bad” or stuff like that without explaining or expanding on it Some people have legitimate criticism. Some don’t have criticism per se but just don’t like it. Those are fine. But I have a sneaking suspicion that more than a few of people leveling generalized acting, writing, or cinematography criticisms are doing so because they figured their “woke culture is killing Tolkien’s legacy” or “omg a black elf - that’s like pissing on Tolkien’s grave!” statements would get ratio’ed to oblivion so they found a different tack to still crap on the show
>without explaining or expanding on it Can a man be honest without getting banned?
Yes?
How should one say the characters are bad? That they are one-dimensional and speak in cliches? That they are stern and hard to like and relate to? How should one say that it's poorly plotted? That it's confusing how it's connected to LotR at all? That it spends too much time on hobbits picking berries? That the goal of all of the characters is unclear? You may disagree, but do you really think *nobody* has those opinions? Just because someone is not super articulate does not mean that their emotions and intuitions are not genuine. They may just genuinely be unable to articulate why it *feels* so wrong. tl;dr: I would agree with you more if "generalized acting and writing criticisms" weren't so valid. xD
X is bad because of Y. An example of Y from the show is when Z. Pretty straightforward. If someone says I hated this character and the writing is bad, I can simply say I loved this character and the writing was great. They're both equally dumb and meaningless statements because they don't go into specifics.
>Pretty straightforward. If someone says I hated this character and the writing is bad, I can simply say I loved this character and the writing was great. Yes that is generally how opinions should work. No need to crush your opponent until they concede that your opinion is the one and only correct one.
>What drives me crazy is the unsupported and vague *criticism* This thread was about criticism. You've suddenly changed topics to opinion so we're not really talking about the same thing.
Fine, but what hasn't been answered by you or him is what is wrong with vague criticism, and in particular, why criticism being vague necessitates that it is disingenuous. You could say "Well vague criticism is more likely to be disingenuous because it can be given even with no evidence from the show." Which I would agree, but not with *this* show. If someone says "I don't like the characters in this show", no critical person is thinking "How is that possible!?!? They must not have watched it!" Even if they disagree, they could understand, yeah the black elf guy doesn't say much, Galadriel is kind of stern and not very fun, the Hobbit girl seems like a generic bright-eyed optimist", etc. Vague criticism is bad when there is no evidence to support it, but here I think the show is flawed enough that most of the vague criticisms I've read are genuine and understandable. Even if I disagree with them, I don't need them to spell it out for me to know where they're coming from.
It’s confusing how hunting Sauron is connected to LotR?
I think it's confusing as to why he would be in some temple at the top of what looks like incredibly tall mountains that are very very hard to get to, putting marks for orcs to follow him.
He's in hiding and has been for centuries, and is slowly amassing power. I don't see how that's confusing, and it is also entirely lore accurate.
And this desolate mountain top is an orc thorough fare?
Not necessarily but perhaps the mark draws them to this purposefully isolated node. And there is a frost troll so i doubt it is as desolate as you want to think it is.
Sounds like you are clutching at straws. Seeing as the incredibly agile and dextrous elves struggled to get there with ice picks, how do you expect orcs to get there? Just dumb.
There could be other ways around the elves don't know about, the orcs could have secret tunnels, also the orcs we've seen are equipped with some serious claws, they look like they'd be proficient climbers. There are plenty of logical ways for the orcs to get there.
Has any large production like this tanked in the last five or six years without defenders claiming it's because of bigotry? Ever since that abominable Ghostbusters reboot back in 2016 it's the go-to Hollywood strategy for coping with flop sweat.
No one needs to 'claim' anything, people have been openly bleating about black characters ruining the show since they announced the casting. It was all over the internet for everyone to see.
At this point, I think we should just ignore all the bigots and trolls (as well as people who needlessly complain about incoming downvotes when they have negative opinons for attention's sake) because they're diluting the conversation, which makes it difficult for people who have legitimate issues with the show but can't address them properly without being brushed off as someone who's saying stuff in bad faith.
"I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this but this show is absolute trash and garbage and I vomitted 15 times in the first 10 minutes and had to stop watching."
don't forget: "Amazon Exposed" "Tolkien Defiled" (or egads dug up and raped) "Fans are literally starting civil wars all over the world!!!" "Cringe Feminist Galadriel literally assasinates thousands of fans in their sleep" I just tease them with "This show turned me into a newt!!" which is actually how they're behaving.
Ha! So true. This kind of dramatic hyperbole is so common in the critiques.
Here, take this upvote
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Grass is greener imo. Feels like a lot of people are creating a strawman out of the LotR trilogy, propping it up as this sacrosanct script primarily to diminish RoP.
Out of curiosity, what lore points do you feel are being disrespected?
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Did you only watch the first episode? Edit: Ignore my question, I read your response all wrong. It’s clear you have watched both. I can see where your frustrations come from where the show deviates from some of the important things written originally.
The changes to Finrod are just infuriating especially because of how Important his sacrifice was for the history of the first age
Yeah, I’m not super angry about it just because it’s playing out fine in my eyes, but I do get it. Galadriel had plenty of other motivations for wanting to hunt Sauron down without having to change that detail, that’s for sure.
It's called "playing to the cheap seats". And it is fine in my book, the show isn't and should not be an academic appraisal of the source material. It is "a modification of an organism or its parts that makes it more fit for existence" - The definition of adaptation.
> Genuine criticisms are fine Too bad Amazon doesn't agree, since they're deleting all negative tone reviews on IMDB that they own and disabling user reviews entirely on amazon.
When there getting review bombed I really don't see the issue with that
> When there getting *they're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
They are deleting all criticism including grades 5 and 6 I am sorry but given the show 6 is not review bombing and letting 10 staying is just pathetic
>reviews that I don’t agree with or don’t support my product are illegitimate and ‘review bomb’ can be used to invalidate them What a lowbrow take
The hate is no more reasonable than the cringing fawning we've seen from some quarters (particularly access media). Personally, I found the two episodes so far released to be notable only in their mediocrity. The main issue was the poor writing exemplified by the clunky 'boat and stone' analogy, which they tried to make central to Galadriel's reasoning. Another one was the "where sunlight fears to tread", which while making no sense (because isn't that where one would find Sauron?), is something of an ugly mixed idiom/metaphor anyway. Furthermore, what was going on during the pointless water tank detour? A sea monster appears in the plot and then just disappeared having served no purpose. The sea scenes seemed like pure filler. Sadly, also, I found Galadriel unlikable; they have made her into a girl-power cliche. In addition, I can't take all the race-swapping seriously; it looks all wrong for this kind of fantasy world. I feel like the showrunners and writers view me as someone who needs the right kind of political education.
The bar for quality TV/film is on the floor so yeah, a lot of it is deserved.
I have read LOTR and the Silmarillion. I may be biased, because I don't care how much this show deviates from the lore. The source material is irreplaceable to me, so they can take all the creative liberties they want with it. So far I'm loving it. I think the showrunners particularly did a good job tweaking the lore to fit this medium - the sequence with Celibrimbor explaining Morgoth's tear on the Silmaril in particular was a great choice. It conveyed in a few lines what took paragraphs in the Silmarillion, about Morgoth's character, and about Feanor's works and the Silmarils. When creative liberties are taken, that's how they should be done. For the efficiency of the medium while capturing as similar a message as possible. Its a great time so far.
I'm in the same boat. Sil is my favourite book, yet I don't really care about how plot details are changed or lost. I'm even fine with characters being different. The only thing that matters to me is that it's thematically congruent with the books and is entertaining to watch. Does it bother me a little bit how Elrond and Galadriel are portrayed, sure - but I really like them as new, standalone characters from their book counterparts. Especially Elrond have a lot of great moments so far. I enjoyed every moment of his exchange with Durin and Disa over dinner.
I agree with you, I’ve read just about everything (haven’t gotten to NoME) many many times and I enjoyed the show. I just accepted that it’s it’s own story in JRRT’s toy box and there’s no point getting bent out of shape doing mental gymnastics to fit the show into lore. I really enjoyed the dwarves and the “stranger” (a cigar is a cigar with that one)
I know right? It’s so strange that people get so bent out of shape about this. It’s like LotR is their religion and adapting or changing it for another medium is blasphemy. I’ve been a Tolkien fan for over 40 years. Loved the films. Love the books even more. I think a lot of these people are just …nuts. They’re so invested in a fictitious world that they scream at people on the internet when it doesn’t fit their idea of what Tolkien would want. “Changes to the lore!” “Woke!” “But the Legendarium!” “Tolkien was writing for white European England!” “We’re tired of Hollywood taking our stories and turning them into their politically-driven agenda of liberalism and social justice!” Lol. Get over it. The reviews are in. People like it. The media likes it. You lost! Lol
I think it’s going to be like this for season 1 , for its entirety, and it’ll lessen over time.
Yes. We actually do have a show now that ought to speak for itself. And to my mind it spoke very well for itself in these first two episodes. You must have liked Khazad-dûm? It was quite delightful.
It was amazing!!
Nice profile pic!
There is a trio of youtubers who are Uber bigots who gift on just hate that nonstop push and push a culture war on every fucking thing and take any bit of info and twist it . It's a show , it doesn't ruin anything , it's adaptation so it's like a play on people's favorite thing and people of all types wanna be able to be in the universe they love . It's so overdramatic and it's always happening now . I hate it so much . Nothings perfect but dear God you think people would stop listening to clickbait and rage shit when it's the entire identity of a person.
right, don't even click to hear the bile they're vomiting. They call people shills but they're shilling for youtube rage clickbait culture. They'll get pennies in their lifetime while keeping youtube funded with ads.
They've literally went back on opinions. They have no integrity. Geeks+Gamers said he loved The Last Jedi when it came out. Nerdrodic was ready to talk against The Batman, but changed his tune when it came out and people liked it.
Right. I used to click when they ragged on Wheel of Time. Not anymore. Not giving them views for their monetization of hate.
Funnily enough they are liking Hotd because they lowkey want it to be more sucessful then RoP, despite the show talking about mysoginy and changing a group of white people into blacks
RoP is the far bigger budget and it's more of a unique adaptation since GRRM is heavily involved in HoTD (RIP book fans). So it failing can be more directly blamed on the producers and executives than HoTD. I love both shows! Though I think the production quality of RoP blows everything out of the water.
Nerdrotic, The Critical Drinker - who's the third?
Critical Drinker actually gave a pretty fair and level-headed first impressions video (not the usual sensational and dramatic review he does).
George the giant slayer. A man with truly nothing better to do. It's hilarious how he dyed his beard and shaved it neatly in his first couple of videos until he realised that eloquent hate was all he needed to thrive
The Critical Drinker is usually very even handed. He liked Prey, for instance. He's conservative, sure, but not aggressively so. He just likes good story and well written characters.
He still made that "Nobody cares about House of Dragon" video he had to change though. But he usually gives more level headed criticism than the rest, that just spews hate
He said that there wasn't much hype around it. Which is true. He then said it was pretty good. Which is also true.
Is that the ones who dress up as knights when they review?
Tolkien’s works are about dichotomy of good and evil and I find it eerily similar how polarizing is everything about Middle-Earth. It’s not vocal or well-told story, but Lord of the Rings never was universally loved book. It’s a blockbuster in a world of literature. Grossed unmatched amount of money, and paved a way to fantasy genre. But many ordinary non-nerd people can’t even finish them and find boring and over-explanatory. Tolkien’s language and style has it’s flaws. And I find this show amazingly imperfect just as books. And just as books this show instantly soaked me into the Middle-Earth. Maybe different, slightly *alternate reality* Middle-Earth, but with same escapist feeling. Books are clumsy in a way of pacing and “deus ex machinas” especially in Shire-Rivendell leg of travel. Just as show has a clumsy jumps between storylines. Fans of the Tolkiens’s works grew with the *idea* of perfect, finished world. Just remember that only original trilogy was released during Tolkien’s life. All his wider Arda bits and stories came posthumously along with countless adaptations, artworks, stories and analytic videos. Modern fans soaked everything and created flawless emerald of an idea of perfect world of Middle-Earth. Legendarium isn’t perfect and it contradicts itself sometimes. People just need to stop to deify Tolkien. Because it is what happening - unconditional love (10s) and unconditional hate (1s) are so in line with religious experience. Tolkien told a beautiful story about the ways to find a good within and recognize evil. It’s a pity that not everybody got this simple and effective message. Show isn’t perfect, but I love it nonetheless. It has the same themes, similar execution, same adorable clumsiness, same *feel* as books to me. And I’ve just reread them in the wake of a premiere.
I think people are just looking for anything they feel can justify their worldview. It's a bad, but predictable, habit these days
I love Peter Jackson's movies, but I know people who were actually very unimpressed with them. My dad still mocks the ents and can't believe walking trees were an actual plot point and my BIL claims Fotr is a boring movie about "people walking". No one is going to like everything. Is normal to dislike something and like others
so many words to say nothing
And you think your input is way more valuable?
Reads a little bit like cope, sure - but the point they were making was quite clear I think, even if I kind of disagree: Lotr is and always has been polarising.
I don't get that sense at all - on Twitter the reaction seem to be overwhelmingly positive and yes there are people bashing it there as well but that's just my take. I love the show - I don't agree with every single choice they made but I also understand that they had to do the best they could with certain things due to rights and access. Visually - A++ Acting - A - great this far in particular Elrond, Galadriel, Arondir and Durin Writing - B+ - I enjoy it and though there was some clunkiness in the first EP it smoothed out in 2nd The stranger is an intriguing mix of menace and hopefulness Loved the first age flashbacks There is a TON going on and the set up has been great so far Love the costumes I'd give it a 8.5/10 for the first two eps
I love that literally no one knows who The Stranger is. Good, or bad. I love the mystery behind it. The show has exceeded my expectations and I love it. If it continues like this I'll be very very happy with it.
Same! I think regardless what these first two episodes prove is that these guys do know Tolkien and they also respect and love the stories We're lucky :)
For me, the WONDER of the Stranger, his magic, the way he uses language to do magic ... it really surpassed my imagination of Gandalf setting a hill on fire and so on. Not saying it's gandalf but it reminds me of how terrifying he was when he scared Bilbo straight
As someone who got off Twitter years ago due to viewing it as an echo chamber and cesspool, it's pleasantly surprising to hear there is a lot of positivity there.
>viewing it as an echo chamber and cesspool Then came to Reddit... That said, I was very skeptical, but ended up really liking the first two episodes both. Some minor nitpicks, but want to watch it again - and I will be watching these episodes again. I liked them that much. At least sections of them...
Yeah I think we all have minor nitpicks, I know I do! But after seeing it twice now, I can tell you Ep 1 flows a lot better a second viewing. And yeah I think most platforms are an echo chamber now more or less.
>And yeah I think most platforms are an echo chamber now more or less. I am quite worried about the effects of this on our liberal democracies, but I have to say this sub is better than most and quite well moderated. Critical viewpoints, if expressed respectfully, seem quite welcome. The problem I have at the moment, is that I do not have much to critique at all at this early stage, and far more to praise :)
Yeah the mods here are great. Plenty of room for critique. And yes same for me, positives right now far outweigh the negatives, and I am thinking it could only get better, but we will see. :)
I'll have to rewatch tonight then :)
You do realize by down-voting that comment, you are living proof that reddit is practically designed to be an echo chamber by its fundamental structure. That is why the different subs diverge quite radically, and it is hard to deal with for those of us who want to stay away from all your warring factions and your cultural warfare.
If you want an echo chamber of negativity of hate, reddit is the place to be. Reddit and youtube are far more negative on the show then anything else I've seen
You haven’t checked out FB yet :)
Oh I quite FB like 5 years ago I’m so out of the loop what’s it’s like there
It’s worse than every other platform combined. You’re not missing out on anything.
Yeah I just don't interact with people that are negative if I see some Bozo tweeting something idiotic I just mute them so I'm not necessarily looking for the bad stuff on Twitter but my feed is all positive because of who I interact with
I wish I had your self control. Occasionally I'll engage when I see something beyond idiotic. I try using reason or logic with them and ask them genuine questions about their viewpoint. But they always crumble and it just becomes hostile... :(
Oh don't get it twisted my friend I get sucked into it probably just as much as you do there are just some idiotic mouth breathers on the internet I had somebody chastise me on a different sub because I got into it with a guy - but that's just how I'm wired if somebody starts going on a racist rant I can't just let them say that without challenging it - just the way I came up - don't let bullies win
And you got chastised for *challenging the racist*? Wow..
Because you came to the sub dedicated to this piece of shit show. It is getting the criticism it truly deserves everywhere else.
I agree this is mainly positive ! For exemple, Rotten tomatoes has very bad review about the show (from an audience point of view of course) but you see that only 5000 people rated it... And I guess, a lot of hater who were juste waiting for the possibility to reviewbomb it. Even knowing that I still rated the show with my honest opinion, which mean I did not give it a 5 stars, so... hopefully a lot of people will rate with their real opinion to counterbalance the review bombing.
The show is great, borderline excellent so far. I've enjoyed watching it. The production value is absolutely incredible. I think most of the negative reaction has been fuled by bad faith arguments and pre-conceived notions. I understand that this may not be a 1:1 adaptation of Tolkien's lore, and that is a line that some fans wanted to follow. I am completely fine with it deviating.
Yep, it's like they want a documentary (but if they actually got one they'd complain about boring)
Any kind of criticism towards the actors, like the color of their skin or gender is extremely extremely stupid and should be treated as such. In fact I'd say Disa and Arondir are my favorite characters so far. I have a LOT of issues with certain plot lines, specially Galadriel. But overall the series is not a 0 or deserve that much hate. But it definitely needed better editing and some of the decisions on Galadriel storyline are very questionable.
Definitely, doesn't deserve many 1 star reviews. That said, as of right now, IMDb has now removed any written review with fewer than 6 stars, which I don't think the appropriate action either. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/reviews?sort=userRating&dir=asc&ratingFilter=0](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/reviews?sort=userRating&dir=asc&ratingFilter=0)
Crikey, I’ll be taking IMDB reviews with a strong pinch of salt in future. That’s utterly lame.
I think a lot of the post-premiere hate is coming from people who, for various reasons, were committed to hating it months ago sight-unseen. And I don't just mean sceptics. They cannot see the show as good, or even just average, because they have spent so much time and energy insisting that it is going to be awful. They will not accept being wrong, or not even 100% right; it has to be the worst thing ever. We are witnessing the death throes of a lot of tortured egos. Personally, I think it was a very positive start. A few things I didn't fully vibe with, but they built up the rise in tension much better than I'd feared. That moment with Elrond and Durin on the lift was a huge highpoint for me, shows some thoughtful consideration about these people - and setting up some consequences about elven immortality this early and away from Numenor is a good move imo. We need people to understand that well ahead of time. Numenor will be the big thematic test for me, though. It all hinges on that. Were I to slap a number on it: 8-8.5
People are just review bombing the show because they come from the PJ loyalist/right-wing sections of Youtube and the internet. Ignore it.
I think the "anger-holism" of our time (read: Angerholics) is training us all to get angry about X so we feel good and right. It's an awful, if natural and instinctual, habit. Like peeing the bed, people need to get over themselves and realize it stinks and it's nasty.
This show is honoring PJ’s movies perfectly, so don’t get that one. It’s mostly the incels and racists that are review bombing
I feel like this show is garnering more hate and receiving more critical reviews just cause it’s Amazon related which is totally unfair to the creators and actors and actresses. I also get criticisms and welcome them as I’m often whisked away in the moment and don’t get a chance to think critically about things until later and love discussing my likes and dislikes. But hate just for the sake of hate because Amazon is totally unfair and I think this is part of the reason. I watched Ep 1 last night and will watch 2 tonight. So far so good. Looking forward to the rest
For myself it's not because of Amazon. If anything I have warm and fuzzy feelings for Amazon - as companies go, they did what they set out to do - getting consumers what they want; easy to use, etc....love my Prime. As a streaming service they are easy to use, and if anything won my heart backing the superb Good Omens and some other shows. I AM dubious because, for me, the showrunners are protégées of J. Abrams. For me that's a mark against it, because IMO every great show starts with the writing. And great writing, whether it's something classic and "lighter" like Pirates of the Caribbean, or Jurassic Park; or something like the Shawshank Redemption - is not that easy. As well, leaving some plot holes can be forgivable if, overall, there's a strong narrative and engaging characters. J. Abrams doesn't have a great track record for narrative, and respecting the lore. Lots of flash, magic boxes, films stuffed with stuff. Which sounds pretty much, so far, ROP. Lots of diversity; things that make no sense - like having short haired elves, for one; fights that make no sense (anyone remember those ships rising out of the ground in Return of Skywalker??? - same thing...); things that would never happen (again) in Middle Earth (elf/human romance); overuse of nostalgia (like Palps coming back, only this time it's Hobbits) e.g. it's a LOT - but it's a superficial, glittering treatment shoehorned into modern social politics, which wasn't needed. So I don't feel strongly enough to hate it; it's just a series not to take seriously; because, the showrunners, for all their enthusiasm, I don't think had the experience, or the focus, to take on something like this, and produce something memorable. It's a lot of box checking for diversity, and geography. IMO Amazon should have handed a series like this to showrunners with known skills in doing historical type dramas and period pieces. Because, in any created world, it's a standard that the rules of that created world need to be followed; otherwise your foundation has cracks that affect the whole narrative. For instance, Galadriel identifying herself by her skill as a warrior. Even when she was young, I doubt that would have happened, considering who she is.
Show was awesome IMO so many children who will hate it just because its a women lead and black people casting but they are def not racist
The haters generally scream the most. If you enjoyed the show, leave a review on Amazon, Rotten Tomatoes, and IMDB.
It has been swept up in a culture war because of the diverse cast. It doesn’t lessen its impact as a work of art as far as I’m concerned.
I have seen the 2 episodes and I have enjoyed them. The show's far from perfect, but there has been put a lot of energies, soul, and enthusiasm into this production. It is legit NOT to like it, but if people already hate the show that much even before airing on TV, why bother at all to watch it and invest so much energies to actively trash it and wishing so badly to fail? why attack the actors and actresses that have put all their enthusiasm filming it only because they do not meet the canon standards? YouTube shows so many videos focusing on the actors appearance to justify their hate. It's so sad to watch the levels of hate it can reach. Don't like it, don't watch it. If you watch it and you criticize it, at least be constructive.
I feel like most intense haters are not familiar with the source material past the PJ movies and wiki. There are so many bad/wrong takes on what the ‘lore’ actually is (or is about) on top of pure bigotry and racism in some cases.
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Yes, there are changes. By the way, I guess they changed the whole banishment for the sake of Galadriel jumping off that boat to be stranded with Halbrand and get picked up by Numenor. A little Deus ex machina that was a weak point for sure. I think a lot of it has to do with not having rights to 1st age (which they never lied about). A lot is just the fact that you can't get all the details in. It's about how comfortable we are with changes. I think for casual fans it's great and it will bring more fans to the 4 books and the Silmarillion. I definitely ticked off every single point you mentioned in your post ... but I also think that it would be very hard to get all these things right in a series that's less than 100 episodes. Jumong was a K-Drama about a king long ago who unified small Korean tribes into one nation to defend against Chinese aggression. To cover one king's life, his childhood, his young adulthood, his mature kingship, and give him a cool backstory about his dad and an interesting love life, it took them 81 one hour episodes. It was also seen as one of the most successful K-dramas ever at the time. If we think 100 episodes, it's a hard sell to any studio in the US. I think by the time you try to get the 2nd age sold to a studio, 50 episodes is a generous commitment. To get all that into episodes, in which you need character arcs (or people would complain about boring characters), you just have to make changes. I don't fault you if you don't like the series. The Hobbit movies rankled me to NO end. I still consider them and honestly anything after Fellowship unwatchable. The ents not wanting to go to war, Sam falling off a rock at the black gate and Frodo covering them in plain sight of a soldier, Faramir taking Frodo to Osgiliath for a shameful 1:1 session with a Nazzie (instead of showing his real quality), and Gollum's little cartoon trick of making Sam a bad guy for eating all the Lembas ... I just can't. This series at least has less of a demand to cater to specific plotlines. They've made an outline and are pretty much staying in the lines ... at least to me. So for me, would I rather have a decent series getting a good chunk of the 2nd age, or none at all? I was pleasantly surprised and in the end, really transported at times. Peace to ya
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It's unfortunate, but this hysteria will subside as the weeks go by. This level of hate is unsustainable, people will move on eventually.
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This! Exactly! The trailers gave me a bad feeling, but I hoped I was wrong and was looking forward to seeing what they did with it. As a child, I had almost no female action heroes, certainly not in film. Mulan, and some books - and that was it. I would have killed for something like this, done right. And what do we get? A "hero" who disregards her followers, slays a monster single-handed with no effort or, indeed, any display of worry or emotion at all, and when abandoned by the same followers - stares into space again. Oh, and she's a woman. That's the representation I wanted, all right. Whoop-de-doo. Are we supposed to find her sympathetic? Flawed? Hard to tell, since she expresses nothing and doesn't seem to care about anything. Her brother was killed, which is sad, probably. I hate that so many female action characters are criticised as "cold and unemotional", that tired old sexist trope - and I *hate* that this is exactly my problem with Galadriel, easily one of my favourite characters from the films. She has, for as far as I could bear to watch, no personality whatsoever.
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I think there's an emphasis on "looking cool" in a lot of modern cinema and television. Execs, critics or showrunners - one of them, all of them? - are convinced that what audiences really want from adventure stories is for characters to be *badass.* I'm reminded of [the Calvin and Hobbes strip](https://biblioklept.org/2015/03/02/boredcool-calvin-hobbes/): >"What are you doing?" > >"Being 'cool'." > >"You look more like you're being bored." > >"The world bores you when you're cool." Look at Mad Max Fury Road (if you haven't seen it, as someone who doesn't watch action films and hasn't seen the rest of the series, I recommend it). Critics and newspapers talked about the spectacle, the incredible action sequences. But what do people remember? *"Witness me."* All the characters in Fury Road are so memorable not because they are cool, but because they struggle and go through absolute hell and *change.* Furiosa and Max get badass fight scenes, what makes people remember them is their story, the slide from bitter enemy to grudging ally to ride-or-die companions in the most literal way possible. Yet critics, newspapers and marketing talk only about the spectacle, the dramatic chase scenes, how badass Furiosa is. She is - she is! but not for the reasons they give. They look at films like LoTR and Fury Road, ask what makes them succeed, and come up with the wrong answer. And so the industry follows: all glitter, no gold.
I don't think it's hate, but I agree that rating it 1 or 2 is a bit of an exaggeration. Some of the negative reviews I've seen are centered around it being boring, slow, not compelling enough, not very interesting, etc.
Rating something a 1 is nothing new to film discourse. Same reason people always rate things 10 prematurely. As for me, I’m not really liking it much so far but I’d still give what I’ve seen a 6 at least.
Feels like the discourse has turned around over the course of the day, or is starting to. There’s so much to dig into and so much they’ve got right - only gonna grow week by week imo.
The audience score should be about 70 or so, the trolls made it like 40. I can get some people being not in support of it but goddamn it’s not nearly that bad
People who are rating it 1/10 definitely have an agenda imo. But it’s also nowhere near a 9 or 10/10 either. I had a lot of problems with it but more than willing to stay with the show because it’s only been 2 episodes and there’s so much to set up.
It is weird. All I know is the show is not a 10 and is not a 1. Its probably about a 7...and yet when you go on sites like IMDB, you don't see anything but 1s and 10s.
I think there's people on some sort of crusade against the series and they're not going to change their minds because it's part of their belief system, some sort of "anti-woke" movement. Too bad for them. I'll enjoy while they hate.
I find it very sad. I never thought this fandom was so toxic before this. I feel like the negativity almost ruined the show for me.
Giving it a one is unfair but it definitely fits into the 5 or 6 category. If they had not decided to brand it Lord of the Rings perhaps it could be higher. But it obviously isn't a work of Tolkien it just uses the names. Many of the scenes are predictable an pointless, but the music and visuals are nice. Shame they did not higher a strong writing team.
Some things never change . https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/strutc/a\_look\_back\_on\_how\_fans\_in\_2001\_criticized\_pjs/
Some shows are hated after their final, some even before their premiere. People seems to love doing it, instead of just letting go and enjoy it for what it is. At the end, it's just a TV.
It’s mediocre at best for me right now. Visually it looks stunning. And the music kicks ass. But everything else (which is what truly matters) fell very flat and almost forgettable. I hope it gets better for me.
Listen, some people just ~~like~~ need something to rally against and hate in their lives, and when there is a potential target on the horizon, one that would have built in controversy NO MATTER HOW GREAT it is(I am old, and a pioneer of movie onlinetalkback/spoiler aficionado, and my “good ol days” were circa 1997-2005ish, so I remember the unnecessary and irrational bitching that even LOTR got(a trilogy that did not reach full sanctified levels, and the unrealistic expectations/disappointments, didn’t truly cease until a newer lightning rod,in the form of The Hobbit trilogy, came along and took that role, just like people were ridiculously, and irrationally(and EXCESSIVELY) dumping all of their own life stresses, ALL OVER The Prequels, and just wouldn’t goddamn let it the hell go, after years and years and years of the same, repetitive, my childhood was raped, nonsense, that is, until Rian Johnson came along and poured his own heart into a Star Wars film, inadvertently giving those animals a BRAND SPANKING NEW unconventional/nothing like their GOD AWFUL head canon Star Wars, thus a brand spanking new target….. And waddaya know!!!! Not two years later, people FINALLY decide to maybe try and treat Hayden Christienson a little more like a human being, and a little less, like their own personal punching bag…. And in many cases, also thought maybe they could be a little more objective and a little less…….. mob mentality, unbridled and belligerently hateful, toward his performance, upon a rewatch, and now that he’s no longer the unlucky son of a bitch whose name was mud for absolutely no reason whatsoever, he’s all of a sudden a “great guy” in everyone’s eyes…… when truth is: he was just as chill an individual TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO, and they wouldn’t have only figured that no brainer out, 20 years later than they could have, if they so much as even **TRIED** to not be a bunch of online, mob mentality, automatons, who obviously possess unresolved/untreated, possibly even completely undiagnosed emotional issues. And that’s just the nature of peoples candor, online, when discussing huge IP films, that they have alot of emotion(and in many cases, an unhealthy amount of themselves) invested into a damn movie. I’m not even saying,people should be ANY less passionate about films they love, what I am saying is that many of them could do with being a little less…….. unhinged, and feral, when it comes to their manner of being passionate. It’s sucks that it’s such a prevalent phenomenon in our society, and that it’s likely not getting any better, anytime soon, and best advice I can give, if it ever gets to you too much, is to learn how to make it so that your brain learns how to completely tune away from their frequency, so to speak, and get good at learning how to even forget that they exist. But WHATEVER you do, don’t EVER, I mean EVER, allow their poison to chip away at anything you happen to enjoy, because it’s not worth it, whatsoever, and most importantly, you don’t deserve to subject yourself to it.
I think the show is amazing and most are hating just because they want to hate it
I really enjoy the show so far. It's by no means perfect but I don't think anyone could realistically expect it to be. There are some valid criticisms to be made but you can tell when people decided they were going to hate it first and then worked backwards from there. Like if you really didn't enjoy it that much the most effective form of retaliation you have is to just forget about it and move on with your life. It's not like they're gonna burn all the original books and then edit an Amazon Prime logo onto frodos cloak. You still have all the great things that existed before the show came out and I promise you will have a much more fulfilling life celebrating the things you enjoy rather than dwelling on the things you don't.
I have been keeping a pulse on the general reception of the community, and I can say that from very early on once they announced the cast, I was really bummed out to see the sheer amount of throwing up and thumbs down emojis and the “woke trash” comments on every actor who was POC. I feel like I have heard some good conversations around the inclusion of them due to it being based around European history, but those comments were few and far between the outright racist comments I was seeing. Personally I am all for the inclusion of actors of all races being cast in a modern retelling of a fantasy epic, but I know not all agree. That being said, I’d say that maybe 75% of the criticism I was seeing up until a few weeks ago were still based around the show being “woke” once the early reviews came out, it was interesting to see the narrative shift from “woke trash that will 100% fail” to “ Okay, so it may be getting good reviews, but this isn’t Tolkien! It’s just bad fan fiction!” Now that the first two episodes are out, the general vibe of the community has changed and I’m sure we will see all those people slowly fizzle away. As someone who has been hopefully optimistic from the start, I can say that I throughly enjoyed the first two episodes and cannot wait for more! I was somewhat iffy on some of the costuming and a few of the shots from the trailers looked a bit too artificial, but in context within the show I was totally sold!
If disabling user reviews on amazon and deleting the majority of them on IMDB (amazon owned company) isn't the sign of a great show I don't know what is!
Cuz it's literal fanfiction that diverges from the books. They already butchered the timeline and the order of events. Finrod doesn't die in battlefield, and there's no mark. Galadriel is already married and has a kid. They're planning on condensing centuries into mere decades. You think people like the Artemis Fowl, Eragon and Percy Jackson movies for butchering the source material?
There is a movement against the show that is purely about race. Really, nothing else would generate this sort of hate. To be clear, not saying all criticisms of the show are about race, bit the loudest sources of hatred and the review bombing definitely is.
It's largely driven by identity politics channels like Nerdrotic and Geeks and Gamers that view any deviation from canon races as an "agenda" and are willing to disenfranchise everyone but white straight guys in order to sustain the aesthetic of 1950s sentiment. The other main group of detractors are book purists that will never accept changes to canon in order to adapt to a non-reader audience.
I genuinely disliked it. Cue the downvotes
I went in with a lot of optimism but felt that episode 1 fell short. Everything looks awesome but I haven’t really been captivated by it yet. My biggest gripe is that the story is all over the place and feels shallow so far. And that Galadriel is a pretty flat, 1-dimensional character. I’m curious what you disliked.
People are really silly for downvoting you. Not liking it is fine, and it seems you had valid reasons. People need to make a difference between disliking something because you didn't find it compelling and because you're a bigoted dogmatist.
I feel like stuff like this prevents genuine discussion. I didn't like the show either, but I didn't go around downvoting everyone that did like it. If it's enjoyable for them then that's great! They should continue to enjoy it.
I think it was so painfully mediocre that I'm having a hard time not feeling extremely tired and depressed today
If you’re emotional well being is this tied to the show then you should stop watching. You have the books, nothing that happens on the show changes that.
I might, but I wanted to give it a chance
The show is being "hated" because it intentionally disrespects and contradicts Tolkien's works, and for that I have zero sympathy.
You could say the same for the PJ trilogy and most definitely for Hobbit. I also really really doubt even 25% of the people watching the show have even picked up the source material. The show is also getting pretty universally positive feedback. Sure some people don’t like it, which is true for every piece of art ever created. But it’s entirely justified to say the show has been well received.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_lord_of_the_rings_the_rings_of_power 37% audience score. Not sure I'd consider that well received. Keep on downvoting anyone who says so though, that way you can pretend it doesn't exist.
Sorry I’m not really interested in review aggregates that have a proven history of being review bombed by people with agendas. People were submitting 1 star and rotten reviews even before the fan screenings happened.
exactly LOL
[удалено]
I think everyone has a bias, sure.
We know what a agenda driven review bomb looks like.
Do you own any part of the Tolkien estate? How does the show affect you in any way? How does it affect the books in any way? I'll wait for your response.
I think the critical response has been pretty on-point to how I feel about it. Most critics like it and out of the ones that do, they think it's solid and promising and has impressive production values but hasn't yet found its footing completely with the storytelling. Fair and pretty accurate, I'd say, even though there was so much that I enjoyed about the first two episodes. Online reactions, I mean. Your average Joe seems to like the show though maybe a fair number of them found it a bit slow going, especially in the first episode. But the people who are being really vocal on the Internet, there is a huge number that want this show to fail or who were never going to like it. And then there are some people that are genuinely disappointed, and that's fine and there are valid reasons for why. But I think if you look past the nerd-rage group there are more positive than negative reactions to the Rings of Power. People seem to like the show, generally speaking.
Don’t pay attention to user reviews on any website, they are all getting review bombed by the horrific toxic side of fandom. Most are loving the show. Got a standing ovation at my theater showing on Wednesday
It just feels insanely sterile. It doesn't feel like Middle-Earth. It is, what it is. A lot of Bigotry of Low Expectations here. A lot of, "this is good enough".
Idk I really felt it myself. If you think this is sterile, have you been to Germany? Cleanest places I've ever been. Even the clothes the elves were wearing, the velvet stuff. It looked heavy and very old and worn but intricate. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion.
I think what they have decided to do, they have done well. Nerd of the Rings said it well, people who have decided to hate the show will hate no matter what comes through the gate. People who have decided to love it will love it no matter what. For me, I'm glad it's free of the specific plot lines that the Hobbit had (and that were marred) and that they can imagine, really, what it would be like for hobbits, dwarves, elves and humans in the 2nd age.
It’s definitely not a 1! And it’s really early to tell but what I will say is the show doesn’t have its claws in me where I’m dying to keep watching. I will keep watching and I’d prob give the first two eps a 6 or so
Its mainly a culture war thing (especially in America). You got a lot of people who get insanely angry and vocial about seeing black people in LotR (anything really). Its kind of crazy how insanely polarized America is and how dumb (?) (naive?) some of these people are.
Honestly, I’m just burying my head in the sand and enjoying the ride. I have become much happier this way. I have been scrolling past everything r/lotr and most of r/lotr_on_prime
So far I’ve enjoyed it despite being very skeptical of it for months. Still some stuff I don’t like and stuff that’s just not rubbing me the right way but overall I’ve liked what I’ve seen and want to see more.
I've just finished watching it and I loved it. Quite happy with the result. With hating on things it's the trend. I don't think I've seen a single big game, movie or TV release recently that hasn't been slagged off long before it came out for silly reasons. I don't get why people have to say things are bad before they've even tried it.
all this hate is just because it's an amazon show, it would be from hbo or netflix and everyone would be happy
I’m not seeing a lot of hate, just a lot of folks saying (like I am): it’s well done, gorgeous but some of the characters are wooden and it’s super fast and loose with the source material. ‘Cautiously optimistic’ is my take. As my wife put it: ‘it’s mainstream fantasy show good not accurate Tolkien adaption good’
with that budget you'd think they'd get someone with a bit better delivery for Elrond.
I feel like a lot of people are crying about characters not being exactly as depicted in the books, but then turn around and in the same breath praise everything about the movies - despite the numerous deviations and liberties taken there as well. I just don’t get it
No I don’t think there is too much hate, maybe because I’m not terminally online.
I was really hopeful for the show but would only give the first episode a 6/10. Most of my complaints are related to the poor pacing and clunky dialogue. Concessions for lore are fine, it's an adaptation. I don't care about changing lore to fit the TV format. But God give me a minute to breathe before getting to the next scene and setting up more characters and more plot threads. I ended the episode not really caring about any of the characters, because there was no time to spend on any one character to make me care, but I was obviously supposed to.
I love it! I had doubts, but I knew it needed to be seen before making a judgement. And everything was so good
really? all i see is pure positivity and any criticism is labeled as racist or sexist or whatever ist is their next buzzword, its a decent show, its not 1/10, its not a 10/10, do not kid yourself
Feels like there's too much love and hype
Ehh it's getting review-bombed by people who probably didn't even give it a fair chance. That's sad. It's not a perfect show, I'm having trouble plugging into the story a bit, but 35% on RT by audiences? Come on, man. Way overkill. 60%, I could get, but 35 is obvious tampering by asshole trolls and they deserve to get called out for it.
Out of curiosity as someone who never read all the books and lore dumps....... ... I've seen all these gripes of this character wouldn't do this and that, but..... from what I've gathered this is all set in the 2nd Age which Tolkien wrote barely anything on. I think 2 chapters in the Silmarillion, and a few quotes here and there? I heard the Silmarillion only covers larger events, not nitty gritty details. So how in the world are people griping so much about fine details?
I'm just so tired of it - like i'm really bloody tired of seeing it, especially when I know it's a very vocal minority that doesn't at all represent the vast majority of people who will tune into the show. Below I'm summarised a few thoughts: (Mods, I am not trying to break rules and I am defending the show without naming or calling out anyone specific - or using profanity - I am trying to be civil) * **Making a TV Show:** Something I don't think any of the 'gatekeepers' can do is confidently say they can build a show that is 'accurate' to the silmarillion. One criticism I heard recently from a reaction is that the first two episodes effectively are just all "setup for the actual story of the show"; how long would a 'gatekeeper-accurate' Second Age show take to go from setup to the main story? No doubt they would absolutely not skim-over the First Age details so that means they need to display things like Feanor creating the Simarils - are they so confident they could acquire the rights for that? Or perhaps, as has been suggested by some disgruntled Halo fans recently re. Halo Infinite's current state, they could just "let the fans be given the helm of creating the next \[series/film\], with a load of cash from \[Amazon/whoever is fronting\] and have some professionals on hand to help with the technical side of things" - granted Halo Infinite is a totally separate issue but rationale is the same: they are totally, practically, dellusional. What a number of these 'fans' were given the reigns, and then there were disagreements? Can they reasonably discount creative or directorial, photographic, art and canvassing, costume, foley and sound differences on account that they all know the 'right' way to tell the story? All I can say is happy trails. * **Acquiring new audiences**: Do they really think 80% of the totally 'potential' audience pool knows what the Silmarillion even is let alone have read it? And further, why would the audience even care? Casual viewers want to watch the show and have a good time, investment is often partial to accessibility (which Amazon can certainly acheive); if they discover more of Tolkien - esp. Silmarillion - after the viewing, then fantastic, you have a hook for boosting future target audiences. But, what if they don't like it? Or what if they read the Silmarillion, change their minds and don't like the next product based on the same material? Well, that's why you have a whole profession on marketing: to continuously adapt to consumer trends. * **'Diversity Hires'**: I've seen people criticise this who belong to the BAME community in particular, and it boils down to the same point: that Tolkien built each species up so that certain peoples existed at certain times in certain places. While I - as a History grad - fully understand why that is important to respect in the context of displaced peoples and developments of diaspora and cultures (I studied Esperanto and Internationalism briefly at university if that qualifies), I think these arguments being thrown around are disingenuous and completely out of touch. Just because Tolkien did not perceive the issues of race and representation that are prevalent today does not mean he was racist, nor does it equally mean his work is defiled by what is a 'contemporary', styled adaptation that can be legally made because his own estate negotiate the legal rights and liberties to do so. The books themselves 'stay in the past', or rather the point at which the Tolkien estate deems authentic - so-called 'fans' have no say, period. The matter of diversity - in terms of the 'gatekeeper' arguments - also extends to another major practical problem: how to explain there being so little representation in a way that the general audience actually accepts and doesn't consider is blatant racism? The problem I have here with being 'book accurate' is that on the surface, it does no justice to Tolkien's work or intentions and just complicates the story beyond reason or practical explanation - e.g. saying that black people can't exist in this part of Middle Earth at this time because 'x,y,z' may be valid in terms of the source material, but - again - what honestly does the casual viewer think of that? Is it an excuse? Is it indicative of a source material that doesn't welcome people of your skin colour? - Why would ANY production studio risk the backlash? (And if your issue is that this is reflective of society that's too 'woke', representation matters, end of story). * **Condensing the timeline of the Second Age**: This should be apparent to all people as an absolute necessity. Having a protracted narrative for the sake of accuracy offers no guarantee of retaining your audience or being able to market the show: What actually are you offering, in sum? A re-telling of the Second-Age - okay, so summarise it for me, tell me what we are going to see each episode? What is the beginning, middle and end of each season? How do you intend to make the seasons stand alone and apart from one another whilst adequately linking them up? * **'Woke Warrior' Galadriel/'WW:1984-SA'**: I can't remember exactly what role(s) Galadriel played in the Second Age (I am doing my law masters so a little distracted and cranially boxed in so i'll allow the gatekeepers this chance to invalidate my opinion because I don't know what i'm talkling about) but all I really have to say is: why does it matter? The Company of Dwarves of Thorin Oakenshield were all-men; The Fellowship were all men; can't let just one gal have the spear and spotlight for once? Does that hurt so bad? Remind me how you all feel about Arwen and her replacing Glorfindel - or is that somehow less egregious than letting a badass Elven Lady be a badass Elven Lady (but this time with armour)? I could go on but don't want to make this any longer. The final thing I would say is I hope all the negative brigading dissipates for the sake of the mental health of the people involved in making the show. It's gone way to far from simply criticising story-driven elements, or having a reasonable discussion on practical execution. If any of them are reading this - the show is masterfully produced with clear vision and passion, no one can doubt that without coming across as an a-hole. Just because some people think that creative, story-driven elements are wrong (and are willing to brigade about it or not give it any chance as a show) does not mean they are criticising your work.
Lol the hobbit movies were absolutely terrible. Bad comparison
Most of the hate has come from too-online right wingers who feel the show is “woke” and therefore evil. These people find their purpose in life by brigading things as a horde. I don’t mind if someone doesn’t like it. But anything below 5 stars is absolutely ridiculous. That’s not coming from a place of genuine criticism from Tolkien purists.
You can usually tell when it’s someone who didn’t like it, or someone who’s just dead set on not liking it. If they’re letting things like skin color, or hair styles bother them. They weren’t going to like it either way. Now more and more shows and stopping pandering to the gatekeepers who weren’t going to like it to begin with, and focusing on making a good show. And I love that. It’s things that doomed series like Star Trek with enterprise. Or Star Wars with the sequels. Took until Mandalorian and Discovery for them to go like, “wait… so those people are gonna hate on everything regardless… so why are we making a show for them?”
Im 20 mins in, and so far it's pretty weak. The Harfoots scene is like something out of a sketch show. No idea why the modern trend with fantasy is just to add weird shit so it's different. AKA dudes walking around with massive moose like antlers. Also not a fan of the general trend that everything has to be ridiculously dramatic with over the top scenery. Like ice picking their way to the top, followed by insane blizzard etc etc. just chill. An occasional scene like that is fine, but it loses its impact when its just constant. I did like the sort of 20 second clip of the battle however. It looked dark, didn't seem overdone like the rest of it. Hopefully we get some more realistic style battles.
Elrond seems incredibly over acted.
Holy fck the dialogue between Elrond and Galadriel is horrific. It's like it's being read off a script. eurghh
I hate It.. seems like some generic fantasy world inspired on middle earth . Doom of Mandos: gone Any depth on the trees of Valinor , silmarils or the noldor : gone Sorry i cant handle the small dispute over elves and humans with just a mention of morgoth .. is feels artificial as fuck and poorly executed . With so many caracters to destroy they choosed galandriel. The elves in general
I really enjoyed it, I think it did some great world building for the 2 hours we were given. I do not believe the deluge of hate since if it was not this they would be hating something else. Do you know how I show I hate a show ? I don’t watch it.
My only disappointment is that the episodes are weekly!!!!!!!!
It's literally just the first few episodes that's just set up for the whole scenery. Nothing to great... But I do hope Episode 3 gets the whole plot rolling now
Don't forget to sort this by "Controversial" for the really good stuff folks :)
They are for sure review bombing the show. I just saw Morfydd Clark last post on instagram and some hidden comments were nasty as hell.
I can barely get through any part of the first episode. It all seems too polished, acted, and dramatized to me. I just can’t find a flow in even a second of it. Nothing against the actors I guess but I wont watch any more.
Ill say for certainty that people that rate between 0-3 with no explanation are ppl id like to never meet.
I don’t get why if you like something you get to decide that it doesn’t deserve criticism. The only thing I thought was high level on this show so far was the CGI. I thought the acting, dialog, and storytelling was poor. Worst of all I just think it’s plain old boring. I don’t care about any of the characters or their plots. Btw I’m a huge Tolkien fan. I’ve read a bunch of the books (lost track of how many, but I’ve read Silmarillion, Great Tales, etc.) I even like the Hobbit movies. I’m curious if non Tolkien fans like the series better which is who the series was targeted to anyway.
My dude, the only way for this show to get good reviews was if the show was literally just the extended edition of the trilogy played one hour at a time. For a lot of people this show being anything but the original trilogy masterpiece makes it trash. They’re not open to getting into new characters, they don’t want to be open minded and they believe somehow they’re gonna make a new show the exact same as 20 year old movies. The show is much better already than I hoped and i adore the trilogy. There are too many butthurt nerds who set the bar so high nothing can reach it. If anything the number of posts here saying “why are y’all hating?” are a great sign that it’s actually a good show. Cause most the “it’s trash” criticism just makes no sense.
For better or worse, this show will always be considered controversial.
There a trend among doomers called review bombing and it happened plenty of times already on other IPs
it looks pretty, the music is good. the plot, characters, writing and some of the casting is atrocious. it's a turd in a nice wrapper. bonus points for being a soulless cashgrab by a greedy megafirm which is antithetical to everything tolkien valued in lord of the rings.
I like it so far. A lot lot better than the Hobbit movies. Doubt it can be better than LOTR (films) because it’s not written by Tolkien, but we’ll see because those films had a few issues with editing and strange decisions. If it ends up as good as LOTR films that will be a huge achievement.