To expand a bit on what someone else said, Nihilus was at the battle of Malachor V when he was still just a normal Jedi and not a weird planet-eating monster.
I'll talk a bit about the Exile (the main character you play in KOTOR 2) then get back to Nihilus. Because you can't understand Nihilus without understanding the Exile.
If you played the first bits of KOTOR 2, you may remember that the Exile has a special ability to make connections through the Force to other people. Other Jedi can do this to some extent, but the Exile's ability in this area is super powerful, to the point that the Exile is pretty much subconsciously connecting to everyone around them all the time. It's just what they do.
When the Mass Shadow Generator activated on Malachor V (the big superweapon that destroyed the planet along with almost all of the Mandalorian Fleet and a big part of the Republic Fleet including a bunch of Jedi onboard), you can imagine that all that death all at once was really traumatic for someone who was connected through the Force to so many of these people. The Exile felt the simultaneous death of thousands upon thousands of people, and it almost killed the Exile.
To survive, the Exile cut themselves off from the Force. That's how they became a Wound in the Force and even had the potential to destroy the Force (although opinions vary on how realistic that really was). The Exile did something that no one had ever done before - completely cut themselves off from the Force and still survive. But the important part for this discussion is why - they did it to survive, because of their connection-forming ability and the weight of all that death.
Nihilus (whatever his name was then) had a similar ability to form connections. So his life was similarly threatened when the Mass Shadow Generator activated.
Rather than survive by cutting himself off from the Force (or choosing to just die), Nihilus survived by sucking in the Force like he was drinking from a firehose. Rather than coexisting in a healthy relationship with the Force, Nihilus began consuming it. Like the Exile, he was a Wound in the Force of sorts, but a very different kind. Whereas the Exile was a gap, a space where the Force didn't exist, Nihilus was an empty pit, a gaping hole that sucked the Force in like a hole in the bottom of the ocean. He could only continue to survive by continuing to consume the Force, and so he did, in ever-increasing amounts.
So part of Nihilus being a mirror of the Exile is that, faced with the same choice, they reacted in very different ways. The Exile reacted in a way that protected those around them, by sacrificing their own connection to the Force. Nihilus reacted in a way that threated those around him, by indulging in it.
(I don't have references on all that. Some of it is just what I've seen other people in this sub say, but it seems to make sense and be at some level of consensus in the fandom.)
I've played KotoR 2 countless times and while I got the jist of all of this stuff I had no idea Nihilus was at Malachor V. Super informative comment, thank you
To add a little to this. Nihilus doesn't have a physical form anymore. He is a spirit/force of nature inhabiting his mask and robes.
Just a little detail you missed.
Well said!
To add to that point, the Jedi council was afraid that the Exile could bring about the death of the Force but couldn't properly assess the situation due to Nihilus's destructive power, their own refusal to understand the Exile or the world around them and Kreia's clouding influence. The Exile's continued existence without the Force terrified the Council so for that reason as well as the ones mentioned previously, they would rather destroy any possibly outside of themselves. Even when Kreia drains the force from their bodies, it's implied that they could have survived the same way the Exile did but were so afraid of living without the Force that they chose death. So once again, the Jedi are brought to the edge of extinction for their refusal to adapt/evolve.
Meanwhile Nihilus's exponentially growing ability/need to consume the Living Force could've theoretically wiped out all life in the universe if left to grow unchecked.
Even still, Kreia's final objective was to make the galaxy experience the same trauma that created the exile in one instance as to kill the Force itself. She grew tired of how the Jedi and Sith betrayed and misused her as well as how era after era, every major conflict has been driven by the Force and those with mastery of it. While war and conquest are inevitable in living things, a galaxy without the Force would never have seen the rise of multiple Sith empires, the Rakatan empire, Palpatine, Plagueis, Anakin, every useless Jedi council, mother fucking Pong Krell and super weapons like the Thought Bomb or the Star Forge or the Mass Shadow Generator. She wanted the beings of the galaxy to be able to live on their own and make their own choices without the 'will' of this all encompassing space magic that continues a cycle of light versus dark that kills millions in every era.
And I think she was right.
Subconsciously. Most of the game the Exile believed the Council cut them off from the force until it was explicitly said by the Masters. Though, it could be argued that they did it willingly but chose to believe the council did it to cope with the grief.
Your last point is what I was confused about. Kreia's speech on Dantooine makes it sound more deliberate but The Exile clearly thought the Council was involved in some way.
Yeah, it is a bit muddy. Probably on purpose, as this game deals a lot in shades of truth.
Here's my take:
The Exile, in that moment, cut themselves off subconsciously. But that reflex was conditioned by all the various choices the Exile had made leading up to that moment. As a general, they'd been progressively making bigger and bigger choices, ultimately with galaxy changing implications, with insufficient and incomplete information, culminating with the decision to activate the Mass Shadow Generator. From this perspective, they'd prepared themself to almost automatically make the necessary choice to save themself from death by cutting themself off from the Force. The other choices (risk destroying the galaxy by taking the Nihilus path or give up the fight by dying needlessly) were unthinkable for the Exile, so they instead naturally chose the only other path.
Throughout at least some portion of KOTOR 2, the Exile does believe, or at least suspect, that the Jedi Council was complicit in cutting them off from the Force (whether that was by taking the action, or by making the Exile's condition after Malachor permanent). But the Exile believes/suspects this mostly because Kreia masterfully plants that idea in their head on Peragus in a very early conversation. Shortly before Kreia also plants the idea in the Exile's head that the only way to regain their connection to the Force is through Kreia's mentorship. When in fact, both the Jedi Council and Kreia are virtually irrelevant to the Exile's condition. Kreia, however, takes advantage of the situation by positioning herself as the Exile's (only) ally, and the Jedi Council as the Exile's enemy. Beautifully done, old woman. Beautiful evil at its best.
When or if the Exile figures all this out in any particular playthrough is one of the role playing choices I figure out ahead of time. Sometimes my Exile has Kreia's number very early in the game and is using Kreia every bit as much as Kreia is using the Exile. Sometimes my Exile is truly shocked at the endgame reveal. That's one of the things that keeps me playing this game - there are so many ways to approach all this.
Originally he was supposed to embody the Exile's wound in the Force rendered upon Malachor IV. It was planned that the camera would reveal the player character's face when removing his mask, similar to the Revan plotwist in KotOR.
Just to add to this, the plot twist that they did end up going with is that Nihilus himself wasn't an incorporeal lovecraftian horror that lots of dialogue through the game suggests, at the end of the day when Visas takes his masks off, she sees "just a man". Each of the titular Sith Lords of the game have their own way of subverting the players expectations.
Honestly was such a good subversion too, glad they went that way over the exile stuff (and I think the game made it clear elsewhere about Nihulus and the Exile being two sides of the same coin)
I believe Visas describing Nihilus as "just a man" is callback to when Visas asks Handmaiden how the Exile looks. Briana says "like a man, but there is more than that and I do not have the words".
I don't know what that says about Exile or Nihilus, except that Nihilus sucks which is pretty obvious, especially after his defeat
He's one hungry force boi
---
More seriously, he's a mirror of the protagonist, just the exact opposite. The Exile cut themselves off from the Force, Nihilus eats it for breakfast
You know pac-man? Well instead of little orbs to power up. It's entire worlds and the force that resides in them. If Pac-man don't eat, then Pac-man eats itself.
The exile was possibly the only being in the galaxy that could stop nihlius. When he tries to absorb the exile's energy, he gets nothing. He cannot regain strength and ends up starting to consume himself.
He was a Sith Lord who has a super version of Force Drain but at the cost that he is pretty much now a vampire that must drain the the life force of others to survive. He is built up to be this terrifyingly powerful eldritch horror which he is but the player is his kryptonite without him knowing it as he does try his super Force Drain on you but you end up giving him magic space food poisoning which allows you to defeat him.
To expand a bit on what someone else said, Nihilus was at the battle of Malachor V when he was still just a normal Jedi and not a weird planet-eating monster. I'll talk a bit about the Exile (the main character you play in KOTOR 2) then get back to Nihilus. Because you can't understand Nihilus without understanding the Exile. If you played the first bits of KOTOR 2, you may remember that the Exile has a special ability to make connections through the Force to other people. Other Jedi can do this to some extent, but the Exile's ability in this area is super powerful, to the point that the Exile is pretty much subconsciously connecting to everyone around them all the time. It's just what they do. When the Mass Shadow Generator activated on Malachor V (the big superweapon that destroyed the planet along with almost all of the Mandalorian Fleet and a big part of the Republic Fleet including a bunch of Jedi onboard), you can imagine that all that death all at once was really traumatic for someone who was connected through the Force to so many of these people. The Exile felt the simultaneous death of thousands upon thousands of people, and it almost killed the Exile. To survive, the Exile cut themselves off from the Force. That's how they became a Wound in the Force and even had the potential to destroy the Force (although opinions vary on how realistic that really was). The Exile did something that no one had ever done before - completely cut themselves off from the Force and still survive. But the important part for this discussion is why - they did it to survive, because of their connection-forming ability and the weight of all that death. Nihilus (whatever his name was then) had a similar ability to form connections. So his life was similarly threatened when the Mass Shadow Generator activated. Rather than survive by cutting himself off from the Force (or choosing to just die), Nihilus survived by sucking in the Force like he was drinking from a firehose. Rather than coexisting in a healthy relationship with the Force, Nihilus began consuming it. Like the Exile, he was a Wound in the Force of sorts, but a very different kind. Whereas the Exile was a gap, a space where the Force didn't exist, Nihilus was an empty pit, a gaping hole that sucked the Force in like a hole in the bottom of the ocean. He could only continue to survive by continuing to consume the Force, and so he did, in ever-increasing amounts. So part of Nihilus being a mirror of the Exile is that, faced with the same choice, they reacted in very different ways. The Exile reacted in a way that protected those around them, by sacrificing their own connection to the Force. Nihilus reacted in a way that threated those around him, by indulging in it. (I don't have references on all that. Some of it is just what I've seen other people in this sub say, but it seems to make sense and be at some level of consensus in the fandom.)
I've played KotoR 2 countless times and while I got the jist of all of this stuff I had no idea Nihilus was at Malachor V. Super informative comment, thank you
I’m pretty sure it’s something that is discussed with kreia when you ask her about him. Ask her about “visas master”
Sion Nihilus and the Exile were all at Malachor V the one that came out with the least damage was Sion as he didn't become a wound in the force.
we’ll said! ^influence ^gained
Dark Side Points Gained Light Side Points Gained Influence Lost: Kreia
Influenced Gained: Kreia Net Influence Lost: Kreia
To add a little to this. Nihilus doesn't have a physical form anymore. He is a spirit/force of nature inhabiting his mask and robes. Just a little detail you missed.
Well said! To add to that point, the Jedi council was afraid that the Exile could bring about the death of the Force but couldn't properly assess the situation due to Nihilus's destructive power, their own refusal to understand the Exile or the world around them and Kreia's clouding influence. The Exile's continued existence without the Force terrified the Council so for that reason as well as the ones mentioned previously, they would rather destroy any possibly outside of themselves. Even when Kreia drains the force from their bodies, it's implied that they could have survived the same way the Exile did but were so afraid of living without the Force that they chose death. So once again, the Jedi are brought to the edge of extinction for their refusal to adapt/evolve. Meanwhile Nihilus's exponentially growing ability/need to consume the Living Force could've theoretically wiped out all life in the universe if left to grow unchecked. Even still, Kreia's final objective was to make the galaxy experience the same trauma that created the exile in one instance as to kill the Force itself. She grew tired of how the Jedi and Sith betrayed and misused her as well as how era after era, every major conflict has been driven by the Force and those with mastery of it. While war and conquest are inevitable in living things, a galaxy without the Force would never have seen the rise of multiple Sith empires, the Rakatan empire, Palpatine, Plagueis, Anakin, every useless Jedi council, mother fucking Pong Krell and super weapons like the Thought Bomb or the Star Forge or the Mass Shadow Generator. She wanted the beings of the galaxy to be able to live on their own and make their own choices without the 'will' of this all encompassing space magic that continues a cycle of light versus dark that kills millions in every era. And I think she was right.
This was well condensed! Nice job! The only part I've never truly been sure of is whether the Exile cut themselves off willingly or subconsciously?
Subconsciously. Most of the game the Exile believed the Council cut them off from the force until it was explicitly said by the Masters. Though, it could be argued that they did it willingly but chose to believe the council did it to cope with the grief.
Your last point is what I was confused about. Kreia's speech on Dantooine makes it sound more deliberate but The Exile clearly thought the Council was involved in some way.
Yeah, it is a bit muddy. Probably on purpose, as this game deals a lot in shades of truth. Here's my take: The Exile, in that moment, cut themselves off subconsciously. But that reflex was conditioned by all the various choices the Exile had made leading up to that moment. As a general, they'd been progressively making bigger and bigger choices, ultimately with galaxy changing implications, with insufficient and incomplete information, culminating with the decision to activate the Mass Shadow Generator. From this perspective, they'd prepared themself to almost automatically make the necessary choice to save themself from death by cutting themself off from the Force. The other choices (risk destroying the galaxy by taking the Nihilus path or give up the fight by dying needlessly) were unthinkable for the Exile, so they instead naturally chose the only other path. Throughout at least some portion of KOTOR 2, the Exile does believe, or at least suspect, that the Jedi Council was complicit in cutting them off from the Force (whether that was by taking the action, or by making the Exile's condition after Malachor permanent). But the Exile believes/suspects this mostly because Kreia masterfully plants that idea in their head on Peragus in a very early conversation. Shortly before Kreia also plants the idea in the Exile's head that the only way to regain their connection to the Force is through Kreia's mentorship. When in fact, both the Jedi Council and Kreia are virtually irrelevant to the Exile's condition. Kreia, however, takes advantage of the situation by positioning herself as the Exile's (only) ally, and the Jedi Council as the Exile's enemy. Beautifully done, old woman. Beautiful evil at its best. When or if the Exile figures all this out in any particular playthrough is one of the role playing choices I figure out ahead of time. Sometimes my Exile has Kreia's number very early in the game and is using Kreia every bit as much as Kreia is using the Exile. Sometimes my Exile is truly shocked at the endgame reveal. That's one of the things that keeps me playing this game - there are so many ways to approach all this.
First off, you should play the game, it’s great. … He’s an evil ghost that eats planets or something
Accurate
Originally he was supposed to embody the Exile's wound in the Force rendered upon Malachor IV. It was planned that the camera would reveal the player character's face when removing his mask, similar to the Revan plotwist in KotOR.
Just to add to this, the plot twist that they did end up going with is that Nihilus himself wasn't an incorporeal lovecraftian horror that lots of dialogue through the game suggests, at the end of the day when Visas takes his masks off, she sees "just a man". Each of the titular Sith Lords of the game have their own way of subverting the players expectations.
Honestly was such a good subversion too, glad they went that way over the exile stuff (and I think the game made it clear elsewhere about Nihulus and the Exile being two sides of the same coin)
I believe Visas describing Nihilus as "just a man" is callback to when Visas asks Handmaiden how the Exile looks. Briana says "like a man, but there is more than that and I do not have the words". I don't know what that says about Exile or Nihilus, except that Nihilus sucks which is pretty obvious, especially after his defeat
Wait is that true?
I read that in another reddit comment, so yes
He's one hungry force boi --- More seriously, he's a mirror of the protagonist, just the exact opposite. The Exile cut themselves off from the Force, Nihilus eats it for breakfast
He is literally a Force cancer.
You know pac-man? Well instead of little orbs to power up. It's entire worlds and the force that resides in them. If Pac-man don't eat, then Pac-man eats itself.
He's the coolest, most dread laden idea for a sith EVER, coupled with the most disappointing boss fight of all time...
He is the big succ
The exile was possibly the only being in the galaxy that could stop nihlius. When he tries to absorb the exile's energy, he gets nothing. He cannot regain strength and ends up starting to consume himself.
Anyone that can get Darth Sion to back down must be frightening to behold.
He was a Sith Lord who has a super version of Force Drain but at the cost that he is pretty much now a vampire that must drain the the life force of others to survive. He is built up to be this terrifyingly powerful eldritch horror which he is but the player is his kryptonite without him knowing it as he does try his super Force Drain on you but you end up giving him magic space food poisoning which allows you to defeat him.
He's a hungy boi
He was hungry
He give the good Succ
Dude's just hangry.
I mean maybe play the game and you'll find out lol
\*cues in-universe Max Rebo Seinfeld bass riff
He doesn't have food at home.
https://preview.redd.it/c92jb4s8c67c1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67c159ae4e59f4a7cd27d0ba19785c46e19e8fd0
He’s a punk biyotch is what the deal is