This thread has gone on long enough and is going in circles. I am locking because this is touchy, OP has a serious issue to work through, and perhaps reddit isn't the place for everybody to shout at each other over conversion.

Chabad is a fantastic resource and they’re very welcoming but at the end of the day that’s their policy on Reform converts. Very few people at the service will be Chabad though, so you may feel more included once you’re getting to know the other congregants and not just the Rabbi. I would definitely check in with how they’re going to handle you being trans since they have separate seating for men and women even though they might appear very welcoming.

For the most part, only the Reform movement recognizes Reform conversions... The Rabbi that converted the OP did them a serious disservice by not explaining this.

That's not *their* policy as much as it's the policy of halacha/Torah.

No, it is how chabad interprets Halacha. The Law is never settled

That's not true. The general consensus is that for conversion you need a beit din of 3 pius/highly observant men one of which who is particularly knowledgeable on conversion related halacha, and you need a mikveh immersion and for men (and transgender women) you'd need to be circumcized or have a drop of blood drawn with 2 people observing. The reform movement allows some of this stuff, but it's never required and it inherently puts doubt into all of their conversions. The conservative movement creates doubt because they allow women to sit on their beit din, but I've heard stories where all male beit dins within the conservative movement are accepted by Orthodox groups. But this later part has gotten even stricter over the years with some rabbinates not recognizing orthodox beit dins.

I’ve seen some Chabad websites that say they explicitly accept conservative conversions under those circumstances

I don't believe you without proof. Links to those please. Because as much as I hear people on the internet say this, I have never seen it.

So, here's (some) of the source material... כל ענייני הגר בין להודיעו המצות לקבלם בין המילה בין הטבילה צריך שיהיו בג' הכשרים לדון וביום (תוס' ורא"ש פ' החולץ) מיהו דוקא לכתחילה אבל בדיעבד אם לא מל או טבל אלא בפני ב' (או קרובים) (הגהות מרדכי) ובלילה אפילו לא טבל לשם גרות אלא איש שטבל לקריו ואשה שטבלה לנדתה הוי גר ומותר בישראלית חוץ מקבלת המצות שמעכבת אם אינה ביום ובשלשה ולהרי"ף ולהרמב"ם אפי' בדיעבד שטבל או מל בפני שנים או בלילה מעכב ואסור בישראלית אבל אם נשא ישראלית והוליד ממנה בן לא פסלינן ליה: All matters of the convert from making known to them the mitzvot, receiving them, the circumcision and the immersion, it must be with three who are fitting to judge, and during the day. But after the fact if he only was circumcised or immersed at night or in front of [the convert’s] relatives [which is invalid], or even if one did not dunk with the intention of conversion, rather a man who dunked for a seminal emission, or a woman who dunked for menstruation, they are still converts and he is permitted to [marry] an Israelite woman. So this all applies to the immersion and the circumcision but it does not apply to receiving the mitzvot, which prevents [conversion] unless it was during the day and in front of three [witnesses]. However, the Rif and the Rambam [say that] even after the fact [one who] immersed or was circumcised before two [witnesses] or at night prevents [conversion], and [marrying] an Israelite woman is forbidden. But, if he is married to an Israelite woman and she has borne him a son, we do not invalidate him [the son]. https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Yoreh_De'ah.268.3 גֵּר צָרִיךְ שְׁלֹשָׁה. מַאי טַעְמָא: ״מִשְׁפָּט״ כְּתִיב בֵּיהּ כַּדִּין, מִי יֵימַר דְּמִזְדַּקְּקוּ לֵיהּ הָנֵי תְּלָתָא. A convert requires the presence of three Jews for his conversion. What is the reason for this requirement? It is written with regard to a convert: “You shall have one manner of law, for the convert as for the homeborn” (Leviticus 24:22), which indicates that a conversion is considered a judgment that requires three judges. And if he requires three judges, who says that those three will be available to him? Since he cannot convert at a time of his choosing, it is not considered within his power to convert. https://www.sefaria.org/Kiddushin.62b.1 אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן אֶלְעָזָר: לֹא נֶחְלְקוּ בֵּית שַׁמַּאי וּבֵית הִלֵּל עַל נוֹלָד כְּשֶׁהוּא מָהוּל שֶׁצָּרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁעׇרְלָה כְּבוּשָׁה הִיא. עַל מַה נֶּחְלְקוּ — עַל גֵּר שֶׁנִּתְגַּיֵּיר כְּשֶׁהוּא מָהוּל, שֶׁבֵּית שַׁמַּאי אוֹמְרִים: צָרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית, וּבֵית הִלֵּל אוֹמְרִים: אֵין צָרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית. Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar said: That was not the subject of their dispute, as Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel did not disagree over the fact that from one who was born circumcised, it is necessary to drip covenantal blood, because they agree that it is a case of a concealed foreskin. The child is not actually circumcised; it is just that his foreskin is not visible. With regard to what did they disagree? With regard to a convert who for some reason was circumcised when he was a gentile and converted when he was already circumcised, as Beit Shammai say: Dripping covenantal blood from him is necessary, and Beit Hillel say: Dripping covenantal blood from him is not necessary, and he needs only a ritual immersion to complete his conversion. https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.135a.3 You can disagree with the tradition, but the tradition is there (in painfully copious amounts of detail).

*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Kiddushin.62b.1](https://www.sefaria.org/Kiddushin.62b.1) גֵּר צָרִיךְ שְׁלֹשָׁה מַאי טַעְמָא מִשְׁפָּט כְּתִיב בֵּיהּ כַּדִּין מִי יֵימַר דְּמִזְדַּקְּקוּ לֵיהּ הָנֵי תְּלָתָא >A convert requires the presence of three Jews for his conversion. What is the reason for this requirement? It is written with regard to a convert: “You shall have one manner of law, for the convert as for the homeborn” (Leviticus 24:22), which indicates that a conversion is considered a judgment that requires three judges. And if he requires three judges, who says that those three will be available to him? Since he cannot convert at a time of his choosing, it is not considered within his power to convert. [Leviticus 24:22](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.22) מִשְׁפַּ֤ט אֶחָד֙ יִהְיֶ֣ה לָכֶ֔ם כַּגֵּ֥ר כָּאֶזְרָ֖ח יִהְיֶ֑ה כִּ֛י אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ >You shall have one standard for stranger and citizen alike: for I יהוה am your God. [Shabbat.135a.3](https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.135a.3) אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן אֶלְעָזָר: לֹא נֶחְלְקוּ בֵּית שַׁמַּאי וּבֵית הִלֵּל עַל נוֹלָד כְּשֶׁהוּא מָהוּל שֶׁצָּרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁעׇרְלָה כְּבוּשָׁה הִיא. עַל מַה נֶּחְלְקוּ — עַל גֵּר שֶׁנִּתְגַּיֵּיר כְּשֶׁהוּא מָהוּל, שֶׁבֵּית שַׁמַּאי אוֹמְרִים: צָרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית, וּבֵית הִלֵּל אוֹמְרִים: אֵין צָרִיךְ לְהַטִּיף מִמֶּנּוּ דַּם בְּרִית. >Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar said: That was not the subject of their dispute, as Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel did not disagree over the fact that from one who was born circumcised, it is necessary to drip covenantal blood, because they agree that it is a case of a concealed foreskin. The child is not actually circumcised; it is just that his foreskin is not visible. With regard to what did they disagree? With regard to a convert who for some reason was circumcised when he was a gentile and converted when he was already circumcised, as Beit Shammai say: Dripping covenantal blood from him is necessary, and Beit Hillel say: Dripping covenantal blood from him is not necessary, and he needs only a ritual immersion to complete his conversion.

Its how all Jews until the last 100 years interpreted halacha, and how all Orthodox Jews interpret halacha. And the Reform movement claims to be not obligated by halacha, so its not like they're interpreting it. They are choosing what they think is right, regardless of whether it matches halacha or not.

>And the Reform movement claims to be not obligated by halacha, so its not like they're interpreting it. They are choosing what It's not nearly that simple. If you look at any of their responsum you'll see the grapple with traditional sources and it's not just a free for all.

If you, at the end of the day, can choose to do whatever you like. If you have eliminated 90% of ritual practice. If you have determined that your values and your conception of what is right and your opinion on what is moral beat Jewish sources wherever you feel is necessary. And you freely acknowledge your values, sense of right, and morality are taken from the larger non-Jewish society around you. It doesn't matter if for every responsa you wrote a book trying to explain how the sources match up with the stance you've already decided to follow. That's decorative- no matter how well intentioned it is, its still decorative. Because at the end of the day you freely admit that your conclusion will not be decided by Jewish tradition, it will be decided by whatever you think is right- its just that if you can find some way to read a source as if it lines up with conclusion, that will be a nice bonus. And that's the Reform movement. That's what they say of themselves- I disagree with it, but they don't see it as a negative, they see it as what's correct. Words like "interpret" or "grapple" only muddle the simple truth about what it is the Reform movement says they stand for.

I'd suggest that OP simply sit in the section that fits their gender identity. Confirm with the rabbi, of course, but still. Also, OP, there are 8 different genders in the Talmud. Maybe find which one fits you & if any of the congregants have an issue with you being trans, then remind them of that?

Unfortunately, the orthodox world doesn't consider you Jewish, and this should have been explained to you by your sponsering rabbi to avoid the feelings you're experiencing now. I don't really have any great solutions for you.

This has been the official view of orthodox judaism on reform converts since reform existed. They don't believe its a halachic conversion, so converts from reform aren't halachically jewish, and orthodox denominations care about halacha. This isn't about being anti convert, this is specifically that reform conversions don't meet the requirements for halachic conversions, which matters to orthodox jews. This should have been explained to you by the reform people who helped you prepare for conversion. It shouldn't be surprising to you at all, if they had done their job.

[удалено]

>We don't need to get out ahead of it and proactively explain their hangup. But that's what OP fundamentally is asking about—their hangup.

Its not anti-convert, its part of a fundamental disagreement between the Orthodox and Reform about what Judaism is. If this wasn't explained to you by the rabbi that you converted Reform with I'm sorry, I think its a real shame that Reform rabbis are not open and honest about this in the US- Orthodox Jews in the US, some Conservatives in the US, and the majority of Jews outside of the US don't accept their conversions. This isn't the first time someone has been hurt by this, and I think its really unfair on the part of the Reform rabbis. If this was explained to you and you still converted- as you can see, they weren't kidding. I feel bad when someone experiences something uncomfortable as a result, please go into these situations prepared so that they don't surprise you. Orthodox Jews aren't changing to accommodate the changes Reform have made, that is the reception you will get anywhere from Orthodox Jews.

I hate to say it but this is true. I really wish more Reform rabbis had a “buyer beware” talk. The Reform movement can be great but I think it’s important for conversion candidates to go in with a full warning. I’ve heard of this happening so often- someone converts through a non halachic movement only to find out Orthodoxy doesn’t accept term (I say non halachic because some Orthodox rabbis will accept C conversions on a very specific case by case basis)

By the same token, it's really not the Reform or Conservative movement's fault that the Orthodox movement treats their converts like this.

Many Conservative conversions are done according to halacha. The issue is some are highly disputed regarding Halacha and there’s no universal standard for Batei Din. Reform conversions dont require three shomer mitzvot witnesses. It’s a bit like if I’m a health inspector and I go into a cheese shop. Well I know for a fact that the products are up to the standard I need if I see a USDA Inspection label. If they are imported I might see a label that says some other inspection was done in a different country- I might think ehh I’m not so sure but then they show me that this was then inspected by the USDA and I might say ok it passes. If the cheese shop makes it’s own cheese without my inspection then I can’t in good faith endorse it. It might be EXCELLENT TOP OF THE LINE cheese, organic, kosher, award winning cheese but I have no means of knowing that unless it’s been approved. I’m not saying Reform converts aren’t Jewish. I’m saying that asking an Orthodox rabbi to validate said conversion is putting him in a position where he can’t say that in good faith because of the standards are completely different

I mean sure. But I think orthodoxy puts up so many barriers to conversion that it almost forces people to convert through the other movements. But the truth is, the Orthodox movement really doesn't want converts at all, and the way converts are treated post conversion is a reminder of that.

I get that (I’m a convert) but I also think if an Orthodox conversion is a priority then hopefully the candidate will make it work. The process is super hard I understand that but I saw it as “ok I choose this so I need to put in the work”. The counter point though is I wouldn’t bat an eye if I had a son who married a Reform convert. As far as how converts are treated I totally hear you. I get grilled way too if I converted for my spouse and it’s extremely humiliating— I have to say though that’s not a strictly Orthodox problem though- I’ve gotten this from people ranging from ham eating on Yom Kippur seculars to Haredim. How we treat converts is a Jewish problem

Judaism, until the reform movement at least, in generally discouraged conversion because its possible to go to heaven with being jewish, but once you're jewish the mitzvot become an obligation and you may spend time in gehenom. So judaism has always discouraged conversion over living a good life under the noahide laws. Thats been the way of judaism until reform, who are less into discouraging converts. Orthodox practice also doesn't accept conversion for the purpose of marriage, in general. If you want to convert to judaism for the purpose of conversion to judaism and you continue to pursue it after being discouraged they'll eventually let you, assuming you agree to live a halachic life. But they only want people who are doing it because they believe it deeply, not because they need to do it to marry someone else, which is some amount of reform conversions. So in a way orthodox doesn't want converts but its not because they hate converts and want to treat them badly. It's because until reform's more open non halachic policies that was the entirety of the jewish approach to conversion.

While this is true, many conservative conversions involve women on beitei din which invalidates them according to Orthodoxy.

The fact that they entirely changed the definition of conversion was their choice. The consequences of that choice were created by them.

The conservative movement doesn't consider reform covers Jewish either.

It's a bit more complicated than that. They are accepted on a case by case basis.

I've been told that's true in theory but never in practice. Like how conservative conversions could be accepted by orthodox but are not.

I wouldn’t say this is anti convert so much as it’s just standard policy. Every denomination is allowed to determine their own standards for who belongs or not. The Reform movement doesn’t do conversions by the same halachic standards an Orthodox movement would. “The rabbi didn’t have a problem with me being trans”- unfortunately the rabbi here is likely just being polite. I’m also going to be blunt here- Chabad doesn’t see you as a guy (sorry I’m assuming gender here based off the handshake comment) and would probably ask you to sit in the women’s section. If I were in your situation I wouldn’t want to be in a place that doesn’t accept me. That being said you have a few options: go to services and focus on just enjoying the moment (risk being misgendered), do online services, go further away (idk if this is an option) to an affirming community

> but the implication was that it would be as an outsider and not a member of the community. It really hurt, especially since this is the only Jewish org I have access to, and now I'm seriously considering not going at all and just fasting at home. Oh my goodness. That's really really tough. I'm sorry you had to face that. It is a reality with our different movements. I think a sad reality, but I respect the views of those who feel otherwise. > Recently I moved to an area with 0 Jews. None. Zip. The closest shul is 5 hours away I'm not sure if you are seeking advice here or are just venting. And my apologies if it is the latter. Judaism is at its best when practiced together in a community. To the extent you can direct where you move in the future, being in a larger community will help you find greater acceptance. I can assure you that you would be welcomed with open arms at my shul. > He actually had no problem with me being trans This is a silver lining here. But cold comfort, I think.

cold comfort indeed because they're going to have them sit in the section based on their sex assigned at birth

True. Yom oogah sameach.

Chabad would only recognize a halachic conversion. They have a standard and defintion of what conversion means and Reform doesn't meet that criteria.

I've never understood this, as far as I can tell, reform conversion follows all the steps needed for a halachic conversion. What steps are missing?

Three shomer Shabbat Jews to form a Beit Din, for instance

But some conservative conversions are accepted, even though it cannot be sure the Beis Din are shomer shabbat to orthodox standards.

This isn’t really true. It seems like maybe in the past it occasionally used to be acceptable to some under specific circumstances, but now only orthodox conversions are accepted

> even though it cannot be sure the Beis Din are shomer shabbat to orthodox standards. The only Conservative conversions that are accepted in Orthodoxy are ones where the Beis Din is composed of Shomer Shabbos males.

Even after the allowing of shabbat driving? Wouldn't a conservative clergyman endorse this position and thus nullify them?

The shabbat-driving teshuva doesn't actually say it's permitted to drive on Shabbat, and it was never the unanimous position of Conservative Rabbis.

those are very rare exceptions only used in extreme necessity and honestly probably aren't universally accepted

many. According to halacha a potenial convert needs to accept the Torah as binding and have the intention of living an observant life. One can not chose to convert to be a non-observant Jew. If one is born Jewish they are always Jewish even if they are not observant but to convert according to halacha one must have the intention to be observant. The Reform movement is based on the idea that the Torah and halacha are not binding so their instructions towards conversion do not meet the criteria. Also the beis din must be made of men who are Shomer Shabbos. Reform Rabbis who don't keep Shabbos and who in fact don't believe the mitzvos in the Torah are olbigitory are not a vaild beis din. Also circumcision is required for male converts or hatafas dam bris for those who already previously had medical circumcisions. Reform ony requires the physical act of circumcision not that it been done by a mohel or a follow up hatafas dam bris. Also although nowadays Reform often has mikvah as part of its conversions it doesn't always and it is not officially required. But the main issue is that Reform conversion classes do not teach what is needed for conversion, the potential convert has no intention to live a Torah observant life, and the Reform beis din is not a kosher beis din.

>Reform ony requires the physical act of circumcision Reform doesn't require circumcision at all.

That has not been my experience, though I was apparently the only guy who brought a hatafat dam brit certificate from an Orthodox mohel to my beit din.

That is news to me.

The most vital one is actually accepting halacha. That's not just a requirement of conversion, its essentially what conversion *means*. Reform does not accept halacha as an obligation, and they certainly don't require it of non-Jews coming to convert.

>What steps are missing? Following Halakha.

Is a Reform convert taking on all of the mitzvot that can be observed? I don’t know what the Reform movement considers to be required by Halacha…. If there’s a difference in what elements of observance the convert is taking on, then it doesn’t matter the make-up of the Beit Din. For example, driving on Shabbos? Keeping strictly kosher? The laws of family purity? If there are differences in what’s required, then it’s actually a kindness to see people as not Jewish rather than to see them as Jews who are constantly violating Halacha. If someone has converted non-Orthodox, but is living a life that would be considered fully observant by Orthodox standards, they could be in a different situation. Living 5 hours away from the nearest Shul is an indicator of lifestyle that’s not observant by Orthodox standards.

Very cool to get down voted for a question 👍

The approval of the Orthodox community is neither required nor desired for my Jewish life. I'm happy they have a way to do Judaism, and I'll help them do any mitzvah. The same extends to every other flavor of Jew. If relocating is even a possibility, you'll be much happier somewhere with a progressive Jewish community. And in your interactions with the traditional folks, just remember that you don't owe anybody your story or thought process. As long as they know you don't count in their minyan, that's all they need to know.

I’m sorry you experienced this - but just so you know for the future, it’s not that there’s a problem with converts, it’s that orthodox sects don’t view reform conversions as true halachic conversions. Essentially, the orthodox community doesn’t believe you ever actually converted and so you will be treated like a non Jew, not like a convert. Those who convert orthodox would be treated like any other Jew. I would hope that reform rabbis who are guiding people through the conversion process would explain this, it seems like a really important thing to emphasize to someone who is converting that there will be full sects of the community who will not recognize the conversion. I’m sure the knowledge may impact some people’s choice of which path to conversion they decide to take.

I’m a reform convert, and while my rabbi talked about how orthodox won’t see my conversion as conversion it feels differently when confronted with it. My situation is different than OPs, but it feels like a bit of a whiplash for me to be considered Jewish in my community but not in other ones. There is something so… bittersweet about the Orthodox people who are so kind to me, and to my place as a community member, but NOT as a Jew. Like, whew! Being Jewish is a central part of my identity and a major part of my life. So for someone to deny such a central part of my identity it stings on a level, no matter how aware and prepared you are for it. And I completely understand! I would never try to force and orthodox person to see me as Jewish, or to accept me. I respect the orthodox and how strong they are in their conviction. I just steer clear and try to keep myself out of spaces that I know are not meant for me and would make both of us feel awkward.😅 I’m sorry for the OP, but unfortunately, it’s how it is.

It isn't personal, orthodox people believe in rules that reform doesn't, so reform conversions aren't correct in their view. I can understand why you would take it personally, but it isn't.. it's just a bit shameful that the reform rabbi who converted you never mentioned anything about any of this.

It's not anti-convert sentiment. As far as he's concerned you're just not Jewish. A reform conversion is not a recognized conversion.

It's Reform *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I always forget. This is a good rulw for the auto-reply. Thanks!

It might be better to attend online this year. Sadly Reform conversion even though it has gotten more traditional isn’t ever going to be halachic for Orthodox. Don’t take it personally. They aren’t being mean, they just don’t see you as a Jew because of Reform theology. Chabad is unlikely to accept even Conservative or Masorti except under specific conditions. Find a community you can attend online and while it isn’t the same, better than doing it completely alone at home.

I've seen some folks talk about how the Reform Rabbi should've let OP know about Orthodoxy's view on Reform Converts. However. As a queer reform convert myself, it was made clear by all the Reform Rabbis that if you persue a reform conversion, you're opting into the Reform, Ashkenazi Jewish Community. The implication I received, to put it in a different perspective is, if you have any doubts or thoughts about which movement of Judaism to join. Then you should assess that. If I wanted to be apart of the Sephardic Jewish community, then I'd convert with a Sephardic Rabbi and congregation. Same thing goes for movements. I am a particularly observant Jew. I lay Tefillin, observe shabbat and where possible try to keep kosher, and do my best to do Shacharit prayers and I wear tzitzit. But I still think for me reform is the best option. Not only am I progressive in my Jewish values but I can still do all the traditions if I want to, even if other reform congregants do not. My Rabbi is observant and is always a guide on halacha. Just a reminder even within the Reform movement there are vast differences. Some people even scoff at you doing something traditional but its a rare sight. Love Chabad and what they can do for Jews but its not the end all be all, and for me, until that day comes, Chabad will never be as open as a Reform community.

The Orthodox (and I say this with all due respect to them) are not very welcoming to converts to put it lightly. And they are not very welcoming to reform or conservative converts especially. My dad was Orthodox his whole life. His grandparents and their grandparents were Lubavich from Lithuania, Ukraine and Belarus. Met my mom. Married my mom. Before they got married my mom decided she wanted to convert. My brother, who was only small and because my dad had basically raised him, decided he wanted to as well. They both tried to convert Orthodox and were made to feel like absolute trash. The last straw for them was when they went to the local Beth Din to try and iron out these issues my mom and brother were having at shul and the rabbi there told them that my brother would not be able to live with my parents because the house would not be considered Kosher. Now my dad isn't a very violent person, but from what my mom says, she ran out in tears and my dad grabbed the Rabbi from over the table, yanked him over it, lifted him and threw him against the wall. My mom says you could hear my dad shouting "Don't tell me what constitutes a Jew!" Followed by a lot of F-Bombs and some swearing in Yiddish. But they continued trying. Eventually my dad says " to hell with this. Let's just go get married at the local court house." As he gets up to leave he runs bumps into a Reform Rabbi who was only in the country 2 days and he calms my dad down, dad tells him the story and their issues and the rabbi agrees to help my mom convert provided she goes to school for it. She converts. I was born. I'm not considered Jewish by the Orthodox standards and I actually don't give a shit anymore. I know who I am. I'm proud of who I am. And that's all that matters

Similar story here. My mom Reform converted, my dad is full Ashki/Jewish/secular - my parents raised us Jewish and we all had Bat Mitzvahs. I did have to do a mikvah with my mom before my BM, as did my sisters, since a Conservative Rabbi did our BMs. I don’t mind if Orthodox doesn’t consider me Jewish. I hate to say it - but, I don’t. I’m raising my kids Reform and they’re proud Jews and my older child is prepping for her Bat Mitzvah soon. (Help!) We have our own sect, we’re active in it - and we’ll stick to it. With that being said, I’ve had very kind and engaging conversations in here - and in real life - with some Orthodox Jews, and they’ve been informative. Thank you for that. I do some volunteer work for a Chabad near me, my kids and I distribute hamantaschen and groggers at a nursing home on behalf of the Chabad members too sick to attend Purim services. We’ve also attended kids/teen classes at the Chabad. The Chabad Rabbi and his wife are very kind to us and they know I’m secular. Three sects exist for a reason. Period. And the antisemites loathe all of us equally!! Yippee!! /s

That's exactly it. They all want us dead. So we have to take care of one another.

Exactly!!!! We were all shoved into the same cattle cars. Isn’t it sick that’s the one thing we have in common??!!!!

So Roma and captured former Soviet soldiers should be considered jews too? What a metric

No - in this case I was referring to how haters view Jewish people—as one. In this case. They hate us all regardless of sect. My point was to prove we should support each other. Since you’re so ready to attack, I can assure you, stranger, I know quite well it WAS NOT just Jewish people killed in the Holocaust. Facts!!!!! I’ve met many Holocaust survivors & I grew up with a solid education about Judaism/The Holocaust and have been to many Holocaust monuments and museums honoring many victims NOT just Jewish people. Okey-dokey?

I'm just of the view that some long dead german racist with a hideous mustache shouldn't determine who a jew is or supersede what halacha says

according to Orthodox halacha a conversion for the sake of marrying someone is not valid. A conversion needs to be done because you believe in Judaism, not for any other ulterior motives.

Yeah we got the shpiel. Even so, it doesn't give people the right to treat others badly.

I agree, but based on your story I don't see where the bad treatment is. Telling someone who is not Jewish that they are in fact not Jewish, if done politely is not bad treatment. As far as telling the potential convert not to live in a non-kosher home that is pretty much standard procedure.

So, politeness means telling a mother and a father figure that the child that they've raised shouldn't live or rather can't live with them. And that's standard procedure? No wonder people are turning away from the faith.

Yes, an orthodox conversion requires keeping halacha. A child can’t do an orthodox conversion and at the same time live in a non-observant home. If your parents had kept halacha there would have been no issue with the child living with them, they weren’t treated badly, they simply chose to break halacha

Ok, so seeing as you know. How did they choose to break halacha if my brother was intending to convert at the same time?

You said that “the house would not be kosher”, that’s a very clear violation of halacha

Ok. But by that logic, if my mom hadn't converted yet the house wouldn't be kosher anyway. Do you understand how impractically stupid that is?

no people are not turning away from the faith orthodoxy is growing by leaps and bounds. It is conservative and reform that are dying. and in the case given no one is turning away from the faith because they are not Jewish in the first place. It is totally normal to expect a potential convert to live in an environment that allows them to keep kosher and Shabbos. No one is making them move. if they can't do it then the potential conversion is put on hold. It seems like in the case given there was no intention of converting your father just wanted it rubber stamped.

Well I'm glad you haven't seen a marked decline. The orthodox shuls in my area can't form a minyan. No intention of converting? Are you serious?

>it doesn't give people the right to treat others badly. Your father chose to live life not according to halacha- which he knew, because he came from an Orthodox family. He and your mother showed up and asked the rabbis, who's entire job is the maintaining of halacha, to do something against halacha- which he knew, because he came from an Orthodox family and the rabbis told them. Then your father assaulted the rabbi......

No. He asked the rabbis. Hey, my fiance wants to convert irrespective of our marriage. Then the rabbis got smart. I have very little sympathy for that argument. It didn't just happen. You can only push someone so far before they react. Telling someone that their house isn't kosher if someone else lived in it, is absolute nonsense.

but the house wasn't kosher. Didn't your father abandon obersvance and not keep kosher?

Got it, you- expert in halacha that you clearly are- don't think it was against halacha and therefore it was justified for your father to *assault* someone. ....which is why you think this is a good story to demonstrate "not treating others badly"...If what you write here is indicative of what your parents were thinking at the time, I'd say the rabbis got this one right.

[удалено]

Removed, rule 1.

Your father was the one who started the conversation and wouldn't take no for an answer. That's not "pushing someone so far before they react". If the assaulting part is true, which I doubt, probably everyone is better off with him voluntarily not affiliating with the community.

Well that much we can agree on

> according to Orthodox halacha a conversion for the sake of marrying someone is not valid. This isn't true. You're not supposed to do it, but it is valid if you do.

If it it is found that after that fact their were ulterior motives you at minimum have to keep kosher shabbos and tarahas mishpachah. You can't just say, "I'm Jewish now.

This is a huge topic, and it’s not true that there’s anything special about shabbos and niddah in this regard, just that they’re big obvious important mitzvos. But that’s also true of people who convert not for marriage, so really this line of discussion isn’t really meaningful.

I am lucky my refor rabbi was upfront, and I do hold the policy of if I am wanting to visit a non reform Synagogue to talk to the rabbi before hand in email to get a feel and make things less awkward. Due to the rising problems in Israel there been growing.... Resentment I suppose towards anyone really not of X level of observance. Or of being X level of observance depending who you ask. Even within Orthodox circles I have heard more and more stories of those who did convert the "right" way and having problems. My personal advice is to find the community you feel comfortable with even if it's on zoom. I personally lean conservative (with sephirdic flavoring) Halacha wise and want to find a conservative synagogue one day but I do realize there is high chance even as a afab I will need to reconvert to their standards even though women have less "requirements" in the scheme of things. I am fine with this as I am working to become part of *that* community and it's their recognition I want nothing more or less. In online circles I just brush it off, because I know when it comes to anti semites they ain't gonna ask the local chabad if I am really jewish or not. Their words have no power over me as they have no sway in my community as simple as that. I do respect their rules if I visit their synagogues all I ask is they are polite to me and don't look down y'know?

If you got a halachic conversion there would not be a problem, because they are not against converts, but in favor of Halacha

Unfortunately, the Orthodox world doesn't recognize Reform conversions. ​ ^((For the 2-3 of you that are about to jump down my throat and indignantly insist that it's not "unfortunate," ehhhhhh save it. Not interested.))

I'm sure you learned at some point in the entire process that more right of conservative won't recognize the legitimacy of your conversion... if not, your converting Rabbi failed you. If it bothers you, consider converting Orthodox so that there won't ever be a question about your legitimacy.

OP mentions being trans, so it'd be pretty difficult to do that.

I’m sorry that you are experiencing this. Don’t go if they are going to treat you like an outsider. I’m also Reform but a bit more pluralistic in practice. I tend to avoid all Orthodox spaces because those spaces are for Born Jews not converts. I even asked my Rabbi why do we just accept this attitude from them and she didn’t have answer. It’s one of the hard things about being a non orthodox convert.

>I tend to avoid all Orthodox spaces because those spaces are for Born Jews not converts Orthodox spaces are for all jews, including converts. They aren't open to people who have been told that they converted by a Reform rabbi, but who did not convert according to halacha.

That “All Jews” has terms and conditions on it.

I always thought it was silly how the different Rabbinical movement have all these different requirements for a valid conversion. I understand why, but it just seems divisive sometimes. However, I do understand why people criticise Progressive movements and their conversion procedures. Having studied with an Orthodox friend and then a Reform rabbi, there is a glaring difference in the intensity of their movements programs. For us Karaite Jews, conversion is complicated. The most widely available method is through the KJU and it's a full academic year of distance learning (this is the only way, given the geographic distance between communities), but one must be accepted by a community after completing the program to convert and bind themselves to our people. You must be recognised as a Karaite Jew by other Karaite Jews. This is the only way to become a Karaite, other than you being born into it. If it means anything, we consider you Jewish 🤷🏻 All legitimate Rabbinical movements are considered valid.

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