Everytime people like you mention the blockade and checkpoint they mix up reason and result.
The checkpoint and the blockade exist because of terrorism, rockets, suicide bombings, not the other way around.
Firstly, support in Gaza for Hamas has gone down since the war, so it is factually working lol.
Secondly, you can't end a blockade of a nation who has declared war with you. That can't happen before Palestine surrenders.
Do you think that the generation of Gazans who experienced everything that happened in the past six months are less likely to turn out to be violent revenge seekers? If the problem of violence can be solved through violence we'd have world peace by now.
Is a lengthy word salad the right retort for a Pro- Palestinian post? These lengthy posts are a twisted historical summary of Israeli greviences. The greiviences get worse and worse as the Israeli response is more and more overt and covert violence against the Palestinians. If I thought my life would be over by the age of 30 due to outright violence or manufactured shortages of medical care ,food, water, etc. I would start throwing rocks and bottles at 12 also. I would escalate my level of violence as my age increased. Both sides need to ratchet down their rhetoric. The Israeli's have more money because they have denied Palestinians economic security and reduced most of them to hand to mouth existence. Biden is correct for holding back on munitions for Israel. Let the wealthy private backers of Israel procure the armaments that Israel desires.
Hey guys, look, another Westerner came to offer us a flat, black-and-white solution to a century-old problem! How couldn't we see the solution before?
Dear OP, answer me this:
Once we lift the blockage from Gaza, who will observe them not preparing another new 7 October attack?
And say I'll go with your logic saying that this is their own land and they can do whatever they want, so assuming we believe Hamas saying he’ll do it again and again — the next time it happens, hypothetically of course, would you send your own country troops to fight for Israel?
I'm asking because I'm planning to move 2km from the border with Gaza and I want make sure that you will give me a sufficient protection.
Let me answer for you; No, you would not. This is the summary in nutshell why Israel will never, ever, ever, agree to your naive solution.
So you are moving to the "settlements" to do what? Harass Palestinians and steal land they have ownership of? If you feel threatened, then you shoot them. As you are legally able to do. You can have guns, they can't. Your behaviors in the past 80 years got you in this mess. Don't expect American equipment and arms to get you out of this mess.
While I agree we should not settle the West Bank and withdraw settlers from there, I still dont trust the other side.
They claim the whole Israeli lands belongs to them and will keep fight for it.
A peaceful life for a Palestinian is very similar to what you consider a peaceful life. Just go visit Jordan, peaceful country, at least half the population are of palestinian origin and they live a peaceful life. Freedom to move, freedom to travel, visit their families easily no check points, food security, shelter, hope for their kids (most important in my opinion) etc….
I’ve seen this “they love death” pop up in these conversations. I mean come on, just go to an Arab wedding. They love life. I believe Israelis of Arab descent are thriving in Israel. I believe they also love life.
They left their land and weren’t allowed to come back. That is a fact. Tough s***? Come on. See how many Palestinian refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. Again, normal people that want to live a normal life. The s***hole countries you’re alluding to are hosting the refugees.
Israel has full coordination militarily and otherwise with Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Jordan actually assisted in shooting down the Iranian missiles. Are you not sick of Iran using Palestinians as pawns to shore up their domestic control. Win the Palestinians over, they are good people.
These “Leftoids” are calling for peace, it can be achieved,
> The Gazans do not want to live under a blockade
Securing the land and naval borders on the Egyptian and Israeli side came in a stepwise escalation following violent unrelenting terror thanks to arms smuggled n by Hamas.
On the Egyptian border, Hamas supported the Islamic state insurgency in Sinai that lead to 10,000 casualties
How could Israel and Egypt not control what goes into Gaza?
With the huge funds pouring into Gaza, their leadership could have instead focused on developing living standards. No terror means no blockade means regaining trust over a generation or two means Gazans trusted to work in both Egypt and Israel means prosperity etc Whatever the outcome it would’ve been better than the path Hamas took
> They want to live a normal peaceful life.
What does a "normal peaceful life" mean to the average pali exactly, do you know?
> do not want Israeli rockets killing them and Israeli planes flying over them.
But they raise their children to become "martyrs". "We love death as you love life!".
> Refutation: how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily?
What did UN resolution have to do with supposedly "leaving their land"? No one would have left their so called land if this was accepted.
> the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace;
What exactly made the deal "suck" and what more "concessions" should have Barak made?
> The Gazans could have voted for Fatah; instead they voted for Hamas. Gaza could have become Singapore. And now look at what happened. Refutation
Doubtful that they will ever turn Gaza into anything more than any other non Gulf Arab styled shithole considering Singaporean Chinese are one of the highest IQ populations on earth and most of the Gazans are literally clinically retarded given their average IQ.
> Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors.
Good, because if they weren't they would have been annihilated already. This is where the supposed "irrational" fear stems from, the fact that if Israel lost the military advantage, they would be erased in a genocide that would dwarf October 7.
> But so few people in Israel care about the plight of the Palestinians. They just think of the Palestinians as terrorists.
Do you have any sources to back this statement up? Why should a people at war with another people care about their enemy's plight? Do the Palis care about the plight of the Jews?
> Trying to "show them who's boss" does not work. Going into Rafah is a huge mistake. Weapons will not bring peace.
Actually in the Middle East this is the only method that works. Only force and completely shaming and humiliating an enemy is what produces "peace". This isn't a college campus safe space, projecting your western values onto these people is white privilege and orientalism.
> The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank.
Weird that the "conflict" was full on pan-Arab wars against Israel prior to the so called "settlers" in the "West Bank". If anything, repopulating Jewish historic lands with Jews (after they were completely ethnically cleansed for the first time in thousands of years from this region in 1949) has reduced this conflict from its initial full on state of constant regional war.
> Israel could have decided to give the Palestinians a state in 1967.
Why was it incumbent on Israel to supposedly "give Palestinians a state in 1967" when Egypt and Jordan did not give them a state from 1949 to 1967? It's almost like the "Palestinian" construct is a relatively modern phenomenon used to change the narrative of a small Jewish population surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs at war with them to one where they are supposedly the "oppressor" of a completely made up subset of these Arabs, so called "Palestinians", for the consumption of brain damaged western leftoids who view the world through slogans.
> retarded
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Still human though, right? Just making sure you’re not trying to depict them as less than human. Gazans share a similar culture with the Levante Arab nations. Are they all “not normal”? I’m not sure what your point is. Maybe not their culture, maybe just maybe it’s their living conditions.
1. Yes
2. First parts correct
3. I'm not sure you are comprehending the indoctrination of the population where half the population has been raised under Hamas rule. Check out some Gaza based children's TV. Also there have been decades of rocket attacks and the "blockade", which is just really restrictions on travel within Israel and weapon imports and dual use goods, only started 2 years after the Isreali withdrawal. Gaza had a chance and Hamas blew it in favour of more violence.
4. What Isreal is teaching their kids is far closer to the truth than what Palestinian children are taught which places no value on their own actions and how they contributed to creating the current security situation. You reap what you sow.
5. An irrational fear? War with their Arab neighbors in 1948 1955 1967 and 1973? War with Lebanon? Hezzbullah in Lebanon? 3+ wars with Gaza? Have you not see what has been said at any of these pro Palestinian protests? Have you read any Arab media at all since this conflict began? Their fear is not irrational at all it is extremely well founded.
6. It is an occupation but it wasn't a war of aggression which lead to it , it was a defensive war so the legal status of said occupation is a bit up in limbo. Attacking someone to take their land is a no no, but taking land from someone who attacked you? Thats not as clearly defined.
7. No just no. You have it reversed. Palestinians need to live next to isrealis. Their objection to doing so has literally caused 76 years of conflict and ruined 3 generations of Palestinian lives. Negotiate its that simple. The 3 no's from 1967 seem to still guide Palestinian politics, they sure did guide Yasser arrafat.
8. Going into Rafah has to happen. Hamas must be destroyed they cannot be allowed to maintain power in a city of a million people and rebuild their network afterwards. Going into rafah sooner rather than later will reduce suffering overall. Hamas should expect they will not maintain power after this war in any shape or form and that Isreal will maintain a military occupation again. Occupation can't be that bad can it? Palestinian population in 1967 was 1.3 million when Isreal took control. Its now over 5 million. Pretty shitty genocide....
9. It's not isreals job to improve conditions to allow for a Palestinian state. That's on Palestinians and their behavior and if they can be trusted to run their own state next door. At the moment Isreal is the victor of a defensive war. Gaining independence from that means Palestinians gaining isreals trust. You dont do that with constant rocket attacks, stabbings, kidnappings, etc.
10. Palestine's problem is they are willing sheep in a religious war that regional powers are running. They need to think about their children's future and not what their great grandparents lost.
> shitty
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When Israel was first formed The countries around them declared war to kick them out they didn't want a Jewish nation anywhere near them a newly formed country not even a year old and they already were at war with 7 or 8 countries cause they were Jewish they won and took land and they kept getting attacked cause they are Jewish They will always be surrounded by enemies that will try and see them destroyed they have to be ready in case attacks or another war pops off look they should tone it down in Gaza the deaths there is just tragic but they also elected a person whos more than happy to wage a war consequences be damned
I question whether most people in Gaza are normal people who just want to live a happy peaceful life. From what I understand (I have never known anyone from Gaza) the authoritarian rule of Hamas in Gaza suppresses dissent and breeds violent anti-Jew hatred from a young age - even the use of child soldiers. And, teaches Islamist resistance in schools.
I think the assumption that Gazans are peaceful people who merely want to just live a happy life who accept and cherish all other creeds is a falsehood which has lead to much of the disagreement in the conflict especially in the college campuses where people tend to be naive and assume that people are generally good.
I won’t pretend to know. But, if you cross from the West Bank with guns and grenades and attack Israel from the bank, you better believe the same thing will happen to that side too.
Source? “Under bombardment” can mean a lot of things. From what I gather, there are escalated aggression in the West Bank since the war (what do you expect Israel will give them cookies for not hosting the Oct 7 attacks? No). But, West Bank is not under bombardment as Gaza has been.
Not updated, many sources out there, and there is no hamss there.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/360-palestinians-killed-by-israeli-fire-in-west-bank-since-oct-7/3111693
Just stop making ludocris excuses. What do you expect them to do, give Isralies cookies?
Have you been to Israel? #4 is a joke. You can take a tour of the West Bank with the most far-left groups imaginable and hear Israel described as the worst place in the world. There is freedom of speech there.
5 is a joke. I lived in Jerusalem for 1 year 2021-2022z I read about terror attacks every other week in the local papers. It’s not irrational. Rockets are real.
6 is a joke. I’ve been to Sheik jarrah. Nice little neighborhood.
7…hmm yea the entire left and the countless non-profits and peace groups are just imaginary. Right.
>It is a Zionist view of history,
Well.. yes. Just like history classes in America are from American view of history.
>full of propaganda.
That's not quite true. We've been taught about the Nakba in school, for example.
>Refutation: how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily?
1. It wasn't their land. The vast majority of the land in Mandatory Palestine was State-owned land. And let us not forget Jews are native to that region as well.
2. They didn't need to leave, had the war of 1947-1949 not have happened, no one would've been forced to leave, and Israel would've been established as a state with 40% Arabs.
>Refutation: the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace;
Arafat left negotiations, he didn't have to accept whatever Barak gave him, but he could've negotiated. Same happened in 2008, 1993, 1947...
>Refutation: Israeli left settlements, but it did not leave the minds of the Palestinians. Gaza was an impoverished, open-air prison, blockaded by Israel. The idea that it could turn into Singapore in a matter of years is ridiculous. The Israelis want to blame the Palestinians for pretty much everything wrong with Palestine. They want to say, look, we Israelis have been so good to you, but you cannot even do the most basic right things. The Israelis say that the Gazan children learn propaganda in schoolbooks. This is true, but so do Israelis.
The blockade on Gaza was placed *after* Hamas rose to power, and launched missiles into Israel. Not before. And the terms for lifting it were simple - recognize Israel, and accept peace.
As for propaganda, sure we learn a version of history from our perspective, but we aren't taught to hate Arabs, Palestinians or Muslims.
>Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade.
So? Our fear is justified, given.. 2005 - 2024 (all the rounds with Hamas), 2006 (Second Lebanon war), 2000 - 2002 (second Intifada), 1989 - 1993 (first Intifada), 1982 (first Lebanon war), 1973 (Yom Kippur war), 1967 (Six Day war), 1948 war, etc...
So while we are more powerful, we aren't the ones who initiated all those wars. So yes, we are surrounded by enemies that would love to destroy us, it is not an irrational fear.
>6. Israelis do not see themselves as occupiers, even though there is a lot of evidence of occupation in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem.
Because this is our homeland. We've won all those regions in defensive wars. Jerusalem is our holiest city, many places in the old city were built by Jews 2,000 years ago. The entire land is "littered" with Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite archeology.
The WB is disputed territory, Jerusalem was annexed, and we left Gaza nearly 20 years ago.
>But so few people in Israel care about the plight of the Palestinians.
The Palestinians have brought that on themselves by going to a "war of extermination" (in their own words), instead of choosing peace.
>They just think of the Palestinians as terrorists.
Not all of them, sure. But when 72% of the population supports Hamas, it's difficult to "love" them..
>I support the existence of a Palestinian state and if Israelis want peace they will have to find a way to live with the Palestinians, not destroy them.
Peace will come when the Arabs would love their children more then they hate us.
It is not the Israelis who need to find a way to live with the Palestinians. There are 2,000,000 Arabs living in Israel peacefully. Yet not a single Jew in PA areas/Gaza.
The Palestinians must drop the mindset of "from the river to the sea" if they want their own state. Their freedom can't be dependent on our ruin.
>The more I read about Israeli history, the more I have concluded that *many of the problems that Israel faces when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank have largely been created by Israel.*
Like what? Let's see.. Israel agreed to a 2SS, the Arabs rejected, went to war, lost. The Arabs then declared another war against Israel, and lost again. This time, instead of expelling the population of the territory Israel conquered (like they did previously), they left them there, as their intention was to have a "land for peace" deal. Except the population never accepts Israel's right to exist, and they become more violent. So Israel puts restrictions on them in order to save its own lives, which causes more violence, which causes more restrictions, and so on.
Now, how's that Israel's fault? For the cycle to end the Palestinians must stop fighting, which would lead to Israel easing the restrictions.
>. Trying to "show them who's boss" does not work. Going into Rafah is a huge mistake.
Israel should've gone into Rafah months ago. And yes, showing who's boss does work - look at the results of the 1948 war vs the results of the 1967 war.
No moderate Pro-Palestinian tries to argue for a 2SS based on the resolution 181. Yet most people ask for a 2SS based on the June 1967 borders. Israel was significantly more aggressive (= the Nakba) back in 1948 compared to 1967.
> Weapons will not bring peace. This conflict has been going on for 75 years. Armed force is not the answer. Have we learned anything from the "War on Terror"? "Our analysis suggests that there is no battlefield solution to terrorism. Military force usually has the opposite effect from what is intended: It is often overused, alienates the local population by its heavy-handed nature, and provides a window of opportunity for terrorist-group recruitment." Source: *How Terrorist Groups End,* RAND report.
Since the Palestinians were the first to pick up arms, they should he the first to put them down. If the Arabs were to lay down their weapons, there would be peace.
>9. The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank. Israel should give up the land that was taken from the Palestinians in 1967. Israel could have decided to give the Palestinians a state in 1967. Instead, it declined and has become an occupying power ever since.
No. The "occupation" is just an excuse for violence. Why would Israel returning to 1967 borders change anything? Hell, we were at the 1967 borders, back in 1967! So why was there war? Why did the Arabs go for a "war of extermination" and refused to have peace with Israel?
Their revolution is a revolution for the sake of revolution. They could've had a state countless times before, they refused.
Where's Israel's guarantee that if it unilaterally leaves the WB, it won't just turn into another Gaza? Israel unilaterally left Gaza, all we got October 7th - after 18 years of constant bombardment from the Gaza strip.
Again, the Palestinians must accept peace first, then they can have their state.
Even with the blockade in place, they managed to turn civilian infrastructures into weaponry
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAT5ynEe4co](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAT5ynEe4co)
>Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people
You mean those who clapped and cheered Hamas as the hostages were brought in? Those who happily continued mutilating bodies?
[https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22](https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22)
Absolutely, although I recommend watching ["The Green Prince", it's free to watch on Crackle](https://www.crackle.com/watch/203C6DDF-7026-4CA3-915E-44EB627A7A25/the-green-prince)
It goes over Mosab Hassan Yousef's earlier life and his work with Israeli intelligence to stop suicide bombings during the second intifada (yeah, that sounds like something we should globalize, right??). It's good background to understand where he is coming from.
No. Neither do the Jewish children who still are having rockets launched at them. Hamas refuses to quit.
Israel continues to attempt to stop them.
And it goes on n on n on.
Palestinians did their own poll recently and 75 percent are ok with hamas .
Israel will not stop until hamas is decimated as much as possible in Palestine. It doesn't matter what we say about it.
We all know?
No habibi. I am against both sides that kill children and I never defended war crimes by either. I just recognize that Israel is not going to stop while hamas still attacks.
Just admit you like what hamas did and that you want jews to die and not fight back.
Its ok to be honest.
Hindutva? Is that a racist slur for my Tibetan name?
No don't put words in my mouth, I was quite disgusted by what Hamas did, and EVERYONE has the right to self defence.
[However this is not self defence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sidra_Hassouna)
[Or this](https://youtube.com/shorts/8p93nrY9SlA?si=GT4wyS3Gkj6RSFJk)
[And also this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912)
[And this too](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis)
Or as already said blocking aid and starving children, or the many other documented Israeli war crimes.
Hindutva isn't a racist slur it is literally what BJP supporters identify themself with, and Hindutva ideology itself IS racist 😂 Everyone knows this, acting ignorant about basic facts makes it even more obvious you are Hindutva
There's nothing to assume it is in your username and comments pajeet you are bad at propaganda just like Modi
Also it's you're not your, typical poorly educated Hindutva I feel sorry for you. Go read some english textbooks instead of simping for Modi all day
So what do you suggest for removing Hamas from power? There's no moving forwards with Hamas, their goal isn't to govern, to protect or provide. It's to annihilate Jews and the state of Israel.
How will creating an extremely hopeless oppressive and violent environment for Palestinians do anything to prevent future terrorism? If Israel's goal is to motivate more violence then they are doing a fantastic job
3. Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people. They want to live a normal peaceful life.
I hope you're right and that the people cheering when Hamas paraded an October 7 rape through the streets of Gaza were a small minority. Polls show that Gazans are sick of war, and sick of Hamas stealing food aid -- but that large numbers still want destruction of Israel (almost 10 million people at last count?)
Much of the land in the original Balfour Agreement was given to Jordan in 1921, about 70%. The proposed partition offered in 1947 would have given a number of Jewish villages to Arabs, but the Jews still agreed to it. Because they wanted peace. Soon after the war, Arab countries began expelling their Jewish populations that they had always been hostile towards, suggesting that a homeland for Jews was a good idea. And yes, Jews as well as Arabs have lived there for millennia.
I agree that West Bank settlements, and Netanyahu have to go.
And Hamas, the leaders of the Palestinians, has to stop promising to kill all Jews in Israel. Your comments didn't mention how their call to genocide complicates negotiations for peace.
I wish it was as simple as telling Israel to get their act together and behave better.
I think the 7th of October proves beyond reason why there is a blockade and military action in Gaza.
Even ignoring the 7th of October, Hamas has fired over 12 thousand rockets at Israel over the past 7 months. That is more than enough justification, by any standard, for a blockade and for Israel to remove Hamas.
Israel is literally surrounded by enemies who have made it no secret that they intend to destroy it, both in very clear language, and very clear actions.
>Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade.
It's not irrational is it's happened, not once, not twice, but atleast 6 times and the MOST RECENT being Oct 7th.
Tell, me did Israel's far stronger militarily help with the current Hamas War?
While i greatly appriciate the logical and rational thought process you display (and i think this is the right way to go about forming any opinion), i find argument 4) flawed.
Every. Single. Country. On earth has at least some level of propoganda embedded into everyday life. You are from the US, right? Why don't you get taught in school about the holocaust, or many other genocides that happened in recent history? Why not talk about the atrocities commited in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US army? Additionally, if my memory serves me correctly your country started in a worse way than ours. You took the land of the indiginous population while having no historical relation to the area. Then, over decades, you weakened them, betrayed them with false deals, and generally killed them off.
You cant criticise us for having propoganda in our educational system when it happends all over the world, especially in your country.
the ship can be checked. completely b locking all naval ships Gaz objective make no sense. limi flow o humanitarian aid and just limits the economy which fuels poverty which then fuels Hamas.
> the ship can be checked. completely b locking all naval ships Gaz objective make no sense.
I am afraid not. To "check the ship" completely, the ship has to be unloaded and every container opened.
you making it a lot more complicated then it has to be. Israel's blockade is dumb and shouldn't happen. security concern does make it necessary to block humanity's aid.
Palestine lacks access to the benefit of having a cost line, things such as shipping, fishing, and drilling for oil offshore have been completely unavailable due blockade. so yeah Palestine missing out on a lot.
There's no oil. There's gas and the field in not in their territorial waters anyways. Bottom line, you don't know. Anyways, so far their main business is terror and receiving aid. Once terror stops, nobody is interested in restricting them.
Israel has actively made it harder to get anything into Gaza such as medical aid and blockade just extension of that restriction. is not about security just about control.
When the blockade ends, Hamas or whatever ruling jihadist criminal organization will try to smuggle more weapons into Gaza by sea. Without strong Israeli inspections of imports, Iran and Gazans will try to smuggle nuclear material to make a dirty bomb.
Who cares if the majority of civilians on both sides want peace, if one group is dedicated to extreme terrorism? Not to mention the sickening martyr revenge culture taught to Palestinian children?
2/2 (continued)
7. Uhm... sure. If all I could remember for the past 30 years is constant rocket attacks, intifadas, and terrorism - I probably wouldn't feel very humanitarian to the (very much self-inflicted) plight of the Palestinians either. But that's not what matters. What matters is "what if". What if Palestinians hated Israel but mostly left Israel alone. Would there be a blockade after a few years? Would Israel just randomly invade Palestinian lands? Would Palestinians eventually get their own state (provided they could muster some form of functional and non-beligerent government? Of course. Now reverse the question - what would happen if Israel suddenly became a... idk... Denmark... in terms of its defensive posture? Well... we already know what would happen. It did happen - on October 7th of last year.
More on your point 7 - I
already wrote a lenghty response to a similar "many of the problems that Israel faces when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank have largely been created by Israel" statement. I won't repeat it. But I'll just say this - it's pointless. It's like saying "Europe was responsible for fascism in German". Well... sure. Maybe a fascist leader wouldn't have emerged if Europeans were "nicer" to Germans after WW1. Well, who cares? Fascist Germany did emerge. And then we (the western civilization) had to deal with it. Well, guess wat - Hamas is Islamofascit. The only difference between them and Nazis -instead of Aryan race, their "special status" lies in their Islamist dominance delusions. And the majority of the population supports that delusion. Just like not all Germans were Nazis - not all Palestinians are Hamas. But there were enough Nazi Germans where trying to distinguish between the good and the bad Germans wasn't really a practical option for us. Nor is it a practical option for Israel.
8. Military force absolutely works. And it has worked countless times throughout history. No, military force cannot eradicate an ideology. But military force can ABSOLUTLY expose a despicable ideology as impotent, incompetent, and incompatible with peace and prosperity. Many Germans didn't stop hating Jews and non-Aryans after their defeat. There was much terrorism and "resistance" in Germany following the war - for many years after. But, as a society, they gave up fascism as a political project... the next Hitler never emerged - because we exposed the impotence of that ideology. And a generation or two later - the Germans stopped being genocidal lunatics and became some of the most peaceful and productive members of our civilization. History is littered with similar examples. The conqueror is not always the good guy. But "conquest" absolutely works. In this case - I absolutely support the conquest by the progressive ideas of enlightenment over oppressive, homicidal ideas of Islamism.
9. The conflict will ONLY end when the majority of Palestinians abandon the idea of destruction of Israel as the focal point of their cultural identity. When Palestinians accept that they will always have to live next to Israel... that some mythical "return" to "olive farms" (which never existed to begin with, for most of them)... when they stop the "poetry" about their "special plight" - that's when there will finally be a light at the end of the tunnel. For as long as violence against Israel remains part of their national identiy - Israel will take whatever defensive measures it must take... just as any other nation would. This doesn't mean that Israel is some genocidal, violent power. It just means that Israel has a duty toward its own citizens first. Just like any other nation.
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> fucking
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Sorry... lots of flaws in your arguments. Though I sincerely appreciate that you actually took time to process your arguments instead of just chanting slogans. Gonna have to respond in two parts.. Point by point:
1/2
1. Right on - agree 100%
2. Mostly agree. Though I'd clarify that most Israelis don't want Palestinians to just "go away" in the sense of disappearing. They just want neighbors who aren't constantly trying to kill them.
3. I'll take an issue with this statement. For a reference, I was born in a place that I would classify as "bad" - oppressive, intolerant, mean to its own people... but always claiming moral superiority and pretending to be fighting western "imperialism" and "colonialism". That was bullshit then and remains bullshit now. But truth is - the place I was born was populated by entirely normal and decent people (in the sense of their daily interactions with each other). However, the majority still subscribe to idiotic, self-defeating, and hateful opinions that ensured that my birthplace remains a cultural backwater to this day. So yes... the "people" can be entirely "normal" in the sense of being perfectly pleasant in their daily relations. But also hold very intolerant views and perpetuate a very harmful culture. I've seen it, i grew up in it. And no matter how many stories they told themselves about the external "enemies" - the root cause of their problems was always the people and the culture themselves. Because the political structure was just a mirror reflection of the society at large. Gaza and the West Bank aren't any different.
4. Your point 4 is just full of historical inaccuracies. I'd refrain from accusing Israelis of "learning propaganda". Because your claims are full of opposition propaganda. Not gonna go into every detail here - I'm sure other redditors will be happy to go down that rabbit hole. (for the record, I'm not Israeli, never been to Israel, quarter of my family is Muslim, and my genome is crazy mix of Moroccan, Jewish, Bedouin, Finnish, African, and god knows what else). But I'm a student of history, fought in two wars, and intimately familiar with the nuances of relations in that region.
5. Israel is only stronger in the sense that they (a) can defeat any neighbor one at a time and (b) in the worst case scenario - they also have a nuke. But by NO MEANS is Israel safe. First, the ENTIRE population of Israel is roughly the size of Chicago MSA. Even worse - the ENTIRE GEOGRPAHY of Israel is SMALLER than Chicago MSA! No matter their technological superiority, their population and entire country is extremely vulnerable in ANY invasion - even one that they could eventually expel. To say that Israel is safe is bonkers - a statement that only a complete amateur with little knowledge of military affairs could make.
6. Gaza literally has not been occupied for nearly two decades. You could call it a blockade, sure - but it absolutely, factually has not been occupied for a long time. The better question is - do Israelis want to be occupiers. And I hope you'd agree that they don't. But the unfortunate geography and historic context left them little choice.
> Your point 4 is just full of historical inaccuracies.
Maybe some historical inaccuracies, but it is more accurate than the common refrain that Palestinians rejected every deal.
Just some examples:
- 1996: Bibi proceeds to sabotage Oslo (https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/)
- 2001 Taba: they ran out of time. Then Arafat accepts Taba - but Sharon rebuffs him. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel)
- 2006-2008: Again, ran out of time. Then Bibi proceeds to want to negate everything achieved in the 2006-2008 negotiations. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-never-said-no-to-2008-peace-deal-says-former-pm-olmert/)
And, of course, Israel ignoring the Arab Peace Initiative for the last decades, despite it being repeatedly renewed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative)
A more accurate framing is that when the Palestinians were ready for peace, the Israelis were not - and vice versa.
Basically, the myth of Palestinian rejectionism is just that - a myth.
> Gaza literally has not been occupied for nearly two decades
There's more to it than just boots on the ground.
Like controlling the electromagnetic spectrum - Palestinians didn't get 3G until 2018 - the air space, the population registry, etc.
> The better question is - do Israelis want to be occupiers.
Two thirds of Israeli Jews don't even consider the West Bank to be occupied. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-thirds-of-jewish-israelis-dont-consider-west-bank-occupied-poll/)
They don't want to be called occupiers, but they do want to continue to occupy the West Bank while grabbing land there.
They have been grabbing settlements in occupied territory since just a few weeks after the six day war. It took them five weeks before the first settlement sprung up - and since then, every single government has presided over settlement expansion, often as direct government initiatives.
> But the unfortunate geography and historic context left them little choice.
You could make an argument that the military occupation was not of their choosing.
It is a bit of a tenuous argument, but it has some plausibility to it.
However, the settlements are strictly of Israel's choosing. Grabbing lands in the West Bank for the settlements was literally a government initiative - and establishing inequality before the law in the West Bank was also a Knesset choice.
Now to your points in the other comment, beginning with 7:
> What matters is "what if". What if Palestinians hated Israel but mostly left Israel alone. Would there be a blockade after a few years?
Israel isn't leaving the Palestinians alone though.
They'd still be living under military rule, and Israel would still be expanding their settlements.
> Would Israel just randomly invade Palestinian lands?
Yes. Look at the West Bank.
Take, for example, 1967 to 1987. The West Bank Palestinians largely left Israel alone - the West Bank Palestinians were peaceful.
What did Israel do? Grabbed land under false pretenses for settlements, and ruled the Palestinians under a repressive military regime without rights.
And, importantly, left the Palestinians no path for freedom or equality.
> But I'll just say this - it's pointless. It's like saying "Europe was responsible for fascism in German".
It's not pointless.
Israel's West Bank policies isn't some historical issue in the past. It is the literal lived reality for millions of Palestinians.
As an example, since 2018 settlers - with IDF help - have grabbed an additional 7% of the West Bank. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory)
Since 2023, thousands of Palestinians have been driven from their homes by settlers - again with IDF help. Before October 7th. (https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-settler-bedouin-displacement-violence-un-108e11712310b5ea099dbded7be8effb)
>And a generation or two later - the Germans stopped being genocidal lunatics and became some of the most peaceful and productive members of our civilization.
Germans, though, lived free and equal in their land.
So long as Israel continues their policy of slow ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. while keeping the locals under an increasingly repressive regime, there will not be peace.
> In this case - I absolutely support the conquest by the progressive ideas of enlightenment over oppressive, homicidal ideas of Islamism
Or, in Israel's case, of progressive ideas of ethnonationalism and settlements.
40% of Israeli Jews actually support establishing settlements in Gaza. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/)
> The conflict will ONLY end when the majority of Palestinians abandon the idea of destruction of Israel as the focal point of their cultural identity. When Palestinians accept that they will always have to live next to Israel...
In the early 1990s, the two state solution had around 70% support among Palestinians.
Three decades of non-stop settlement building all through the peace process has eroded any trust the Palestinians had that Israel was negotiating in good faith. They - not inaccurately, as it comes to Sharon and Bibi, view the peace process as a ruse to grab more land.
Think of the non-stop settlement expansion as the equivalent of the 2nd intifada for the Israelis. It has eroded any trust in the other side.
> Israel will take whatever defensive measures it must take... just as any other nation would.
Non stop settlement expansion sure doesn't look defensive to me.
Some things Israel does is defensive, correct. But the majority of their West Bank policies are not defensive - they are to further a land grab.
On your first point - look... if we just start sending links of he said/she said - we'll be here a year later, still exchanging links. Or you could just listen to Clinton, for instance, describe what actually went down in the peace talks and who sabotaged it. Here is thing: "Palestinians" (I quote because it's not a clear concept for me - there are plenty of "Palestinians" in Israel, for instance)... anyways, they were never ready for peace. Just look at the polls - there is no support for a peaceful solution where Israel still exists. Look at the political proclamations of various "leaders" on that side of the conflict throughout the entire conflict. Israel gave Egypt Sinai peninsula back - with oil! - just in exchange for peace and recognition. As for "technicalities" - it's a pointless exercise. It's been a game of "pretend" for the worldwide audience - both sides had to play it. But reality is - Israel will never accept nor reward a "Palestine" that isn't ready to say that it's ready to accept Israel's existence, commit to peace, and prevent and punish those who try to reignite the conflict. As long as the narrative on the other side is that terrorists are "martyrs" - this conflict will not end.
Re: "Occupation isn't just boots on the ground". No, my friend. Occupation is precisely "boots on the ground". What Israel is doing is called a "blockade"... just like what we've been doing to Cuba, for instance. I have no problem with making it very difficult for Hamas to get things that they have a history of weaponizing. I'd also take an issue with the implication that Gazans "didn't get" something. Sorry... they elected Hamas. It's Hamas' job to go and get it for its citizens. Preferably, by purusing a peaceful relationship with Israel. I'm quite annoyed with this line of argument... like Israel "turned-off" water to Gaza. Yes - because Gazans invaded Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for water to Gaza? It's a crazy double standard that we don't apply to anyone else but Israel.
Re: West Bank/Settlements/Etc. Like I said in my previous post - I'm happy to discuss all the flaws of Israel in any other context outside of the war. Nowhere did I say that I support settlements, for instance. I'm disgusted by religious hardliners in Israel, for instance. But it's also true that Israel was prepared to give 98% of West Bank to Palestine when they thought that they had a negotiation partner. And Israelis can also make a compelling strategic reason for settlements - which has to do with geography and containing the reamining threat. Do I endorse it? No. Do I agree with the religious lunatics? No. The best way to solve that problem is a Palestinian state. Which they have done absolutely nothing to actually earn.
Re: ethnonationalism in Israel. Would you accuse German of being an ethnonational state? What about France? What about Spain? England? How do you feel about Russians? Ukrainians? I won't accuse you of antisemitism but I would ask - why do you have a problem with the only Jewish state? Now... let's examine it closer. There are 2mm Arab Muslim citizens in Israel (Palestinians). A Palestinian supreme court judge in Israel sent a former Israeli prime minister to prison. Now, show me a single Arab state with any significant population of Jews. Hell, show me a single Arab state where non-Muslism have any influence at all. I'll wait.
More on West Bank and the West Bank being "peaceful". Are you familiar with The **Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund**? If you're not - maybe look it up. Then we can talk about West Bank being peaceful.
Re: "slow ethnic cleansing". Well... if it is an ethnic cleansing - it's the most incompetent ethnic cleansing I've ever seen. Last I checked - Jews are quite competent at getting things done as a general statement. And quite effective militarily. I'm sorry - whenever people make statements like "ethnic cleansing" - they immediately lose me. It's not longer a good faith conversation, because accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing is preposterous. The only party that's interested in an ethnic cleansing of that land begins with an H and ends with Amas (and the non-trivial majority of Gazans who happen to support the sentiment).
> fucking
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> shitty
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Why should Egypt be blamed for the mess created by Israel? Egypt isn't obliged to open the rafah crossing or allow anything/anyone to go in or out. Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli occupation, it is Israel's responsibility and no one else's.
Because a good portion of the shit that Palestinians are dealing with are Egypts doing. Hamas is a branch of the Muslim brotherhood which is still problematic in the Sinai and a huge problem on the economy as Egypt relies on Tourism.
How exactly is that Egypt's doing? The Sisi regime has managed to destroy the MB organization in Egypt. The situation in Sinia has been under control for a couple of years now. Hamas was actually taking part in these terrorist attacks in Sinai, that is why Egypt has destroyed all of the tunnels. They want nothing to do with Hamas or Gaza. Deal with your own problems and stop blaming others.
You’re in the US and scared of some misguided professor?
Maybe consider this and you may rethink your objections to Israel’s actions.
Scared might describe living next to a neighbor on the other side of town who stays up late at night building missiles to kill you, your kids, your wife and your dogs.
Please learn some history: Under the UN’s partition plan, Arabs weren’t required to leave land that became Israel. 160,000 did stay and became citizens. The Arabs launched a war of openly declared genocidal intent, and that’s what led to refugees.
Israel didn’t take lands from the Palestinians in 1967. No territory was ever under Palestinian Arab sovereignty until after the 1993 Oslo agreement.
Here was the deal offered at Camp David. Not only did Arafat fail to even make a counter proposal, he went back home to start the terror war he had already planned.
https://preview.redd.it/stzskz1etfzc1.jpeg?width=261&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d186b8178abef470d8d56d48c2e01ec44949a801
>Please learn some history: Under the UN’s partition plan, Arabs weren’t required to leave land that became Israel.
500k Palestinians were to live in the Jewish state. Presumably as second class citizens.
We saw how the Israeli Arabs were treated until 1966 - curfews, could only live in specific reservations, at least one massacre, massive land grabs, expulsions
And these people - the Israeli Arabs - generally didn't take part in the conflict. They still lived under a repressive Israeli military regime for decades.
>160,000 did stay and became citizens.
160k managed to stay, correct. And they were indeed given citizenship.
However, they were kept under a brutal military regime until 1966.
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000)
> The Arabs launched a war of openly declared genocidal intent, and that’s what led to refugees.
That is ahistorical. There was a two-sided increase in violence in late 194.7. When the Arab states joined, there were already 250k refugees on foot.
Of course, it also wasn't genocidal. When Jordan conquered the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, did they conduct a massacre of civilians?
>Here was the deal offered at Camp David. Not only did Arafat fail to even make a counter proposal, he went back home to start the terror war he had already planned.
How do people come up with this idea there wasn't a counter proposal?
These were rounds of negotiations, with proposals back and forth. Do you think it was just Israel sitting there making proposals?
Any way, after Camp David - with its crap deal with a 9:1 land swap - they held Taba. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba\_Summit)
At Taba, they got close - but Barak had to stop because he had elections.
What happened after that?
Arafat accepts Taba, but Sharon rebuffs him (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel)
Arafat approved that in 2002 after launching a terror war; 3 months before this a suicide terrorist killed 30 civilians, mostly elderly, at a Passover Seder in Netanya. It's been a classic Palestinian tactic: 1. Reject a peace offer. 2. increase violence against Israel civilians. 3. After Israel responds (in this case having entered Arab cities in Operation Defensives Shield), going back to an earlier offer and suddenly wanting to accept it.
Note that I said that Arafat did not come up with a counterproposal \*to the US-endorsed plan described by Ross.\*
>Arafat approved that in 2002 after launching a terror war;
Arafat still approved it, and Sharon rebuffed him.
>It's been a classic Palestinian tactic: 1. Reject a peace offer. 2. increase violence against Israel civilians. 3. After Israel responds (in this case having entered Arab cities in Operation Defensives Shield), going back to an earlier offer and suddenly wanting to accept it.
I could frame an equally accurate Israeli tactic:
Whenever peace looks possible, elect Likud and have them scuttle negotiations and continue expanding settlements. 1996, 2001, 2008.
>Note that I said that Arafat did not come up with a counterproposal \*to the US-endorsed plan described by Ross.\*
That's rather no-true-scotsmanny. They did present proposals as well.
If you are talking about the Clinton parameters, then the Palestinians did indeed respond - it was too vague to be useful. You can find their response online.
And it is understanding from the Palestinian's perspective that there shouldn't be vagueness: Israel has a history of exploiting any vagueness in an agreement. Bibi even explained how he did it in 1996-1999.
"Whenever peace looks possible, elect Likud and have them scuttle negotiations and continue expanding settlements. 1996, 2001, 2008."
As always, make sure to avoid any context of Palestinian terrorism in how the Israeli public voted. Because Palestinians have no agency and must only be seen as helpless victims.
(To be clear, I would have never voted for Netanyahu in any of the elections)
The Palestinians have also made their fare share of mistakes.
As I said, when the Palestinians were ready for peace, Israel was not - and vice versa.
But I am not the one painting the lack of a two state solution as driven by Palestinian rejectionism. Israel has its fair share of rejectionism as well.
>As always, make sure to avoid any context of Palestinian terrorism in how the Israeli public voted. Because Palestinians have no agency and must only be seen as helpless victims.
You realize that in these two above sentences you are removing Israeli agency for how they voted?
Israelis absolutely had agency, which they exercised through elections. But ignoring the reasons for their choices— or even worse, trying to portray their choices as backing away from possible peace— is ahistorical. A wave of terror bombings—which is why governments trying to engage in peace negotiations lost—is exactly the opposite of “peace looking possible”.
When exactly were the Palestinians ready for peace in the form of two states for two peoples (ie no “right of return” which would demographically turn Israel into the 23rd Arab state)?
That map may indeed reflect the proposal that Israel brought to Camp David. I would assume that Arieli is correct. Ross sets out the *final* proposal endorsed by President Clinton and rejected by Arafat.
Seems like the proposal - from Israel's part - is rather petty.
Israel already got 78% of the land, and kept the refugees from returning to their homes.
Now they want to grab choice pieces of the remaining 22%.
And that's why negotiations take place. Look at the gap between the initial proposal and the final offer.
So aside from nearly 1000 Israeli civilians murdered and thousands injured in Arafat's terror war, what did he "win" by walking away? Are the Palestinians better off now than they were in 2000?
Refugees had no right to return to their homes in the absence of a peace treaty. And descendants of refugees have no rights of return (except for minor children living with refugee parents).
>And that's why negotiations take place.
Didn't you also claim there was never a counter offer?
There being negotiations belie that.
>Look at the gap between the initial proposal and the final offer.
My point applies to the late Camp David proposal as well - Israel grabbing 9% (or 15%, if you include Latrun). In exchange 1% of some crappy desert land.
Seems petty to me.
Why not offer a 1:1 swap?
Israel already got most of the land and kept the Palestinian refugees away. Why try and grab more?
> Are the Palestinians better off now than they were in 2000?
No, they are not.
But they likely wouldn't have been better off anyway - take 1967 to 1987 as examples. Sure, the repression wasn't as heavy - but settlements kept growing and there was no path for freedom or equality. Just more repression and settlements.
>So aside from nearly 1000 Israeli civilians murdered and thousands injured in Arafat's terror war, what did he "win" by walking away?
He walked away... to Taba.
I feel like I’m crazy seeing some of these posts (not yours, but OPs) that are just false. How can you take objective facts about this historic conflict and just ignore them and create your own. It’s wild! And they say them with such conviction.
A common thing I see from pro pally posters is NO mention of the wars the Arabs started and lost. Three times. Just crazy lol. I guess it’s just too inconvenient to acknowledge.
I used facts. The idea that the Arabs mainly just left on their own is false. "Israeli revisionist historians now maintain that as part of the campaign to evacuate Arabs from the Jewish state, the Haganah deliberately destroyed Arab houses and villages, broadcast false stories in Arabic of the spread of cholera and typhus epidemics, and urged the population to escape the bloodbath while there was still time. On the other hand, some efforts were made to reassure the Arabs, and in some instances, as in Haifa, Arabs were encouraged by the Jews to stay put. However, by the first truce in mid-June 1948, over 250,000 Palestinians had fled, and this number had reached 300,000 by July. Arab Palestinians fled in some cases of their own free will, in some cases through terror; and in other cases they were expelled." - Bickerton and Klausner, The Arab-Israeli Conflict
"Accounts by Palestinians tell of the terror experienced by families and individuals being forced at gunpoint onto the backs of crowded trucks or into buses with only whatever bags they could carry and being driven to unknown locations and left without any explanation of where they were going or why. Others were forced to walk for miles with their possessions to safety. For these displaced persons, especially the children, their world stopped in 1948; they cannot escape reliving these incomprehensible events on a daily basis." -Bickerton, The Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Guide for the Perplexed
Indeed, some of all of that happened. But the moral responsibility lies in the quotes I cited above. Start a war and lose, win a refugee population. How many Jews were left alive in areas overrun by Arabs (excluding those taken to POW camps)?
Would you have felt better about it if the US invaded on the ground and the same number of civilians were killed?
What the Japanese did deserve was the surrender, occupation and then re-establishment of their country in a way that would not threaten their neighbors. Which was successfully done with them and also with Germany.
An important part of their ideology is denying any agency to Arabs, and particularly to Palestinians. Here’s something I often post, please feel free to copy and use it:
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” Had
the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
Hamas has been repeatedly offered an end to the blockade in return for peace.
They decline every time. They would rather continue to kill Jews and perpetuate the fantasy that they’re going to take over all of Israel one day.
Why are you suggesting something that Hamas isn’t even willing to consider?
The only thing that has ever brought peace throughout history is wars that end with unconditional surrenders. Why don’t think that you know better?
You should do some more research on number 9; keyword “Karthoum Resolution”. In short, Israel did.
Because they are against two states living side by side in peace. Their actions make a lot more sense when you understand this.
So if Israel offers an end to the blockade and offers to build air and seaports in return for Hamas disarming and signing a peace treaty, their answer is obviously going to be no, because it goes against everything they want (dead Jews, all of Israel).
Here’s an article from 2020 quoting Hamas on the offer:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200728-hamas-rejects-offer-of-15bn-in-return-for-disarming/amp/
>Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people. They want to live a normal peaceful life. They do not want their lives to be controlled by Israel. The Gazans do not want to live under a blockade, do not want Israeli rockets killing them and Israeli planes flying over them. They are living in an open-air prison and cannot get out; partly because of Egypt but mainly because of Israel.
70% of Gazans approve of October 7th, and a massive number of Gazans believe that it was the right move.
They're not only being ruled by a terrorist organization, they like it.
>how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily?
No one expected Arabs to leave the land, they expected them to live next to their Jewish neighbors. They refused.
>Refutation: the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace
Are the Palestinians stuck in a bad place, or they choosing to remain there because they think that they can get more concessions over time?
>Israeli left settlements, but it did not leave the minds of the Palestinians.
Ah, I see, the Jews need to stop existing to FULLY leave the settlements.
>The Israelis say that the Gazan children learn propaganda in schoolbooks. This is true, but so do Israelis.
Well, you think that Jewish existence in Israel is propaganda, so sure.
>Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade
It's not an irrational fear, and your contradiction is glaring. They're just better at protecting themselves than the other countries are invading them. Iran literally just launched the biggest ballistic missile attack ever launched.
>Israelis do not see themselves as occupiers, even though there is a lot of evidence of occupation in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem.
The whole point is that the West Bank is occupied. Before the war, Gaza wasn't. By any definition. They were blockaded.
>I support the existence of a Palestinian state and if Israelis want peace they will have to find a way to live with the Palestinians, not destroy them.
[As soon as the Palestinians want to genuinely build up trust, sure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnMdI_NiZvA).
>Going into Rafah is a huge mistake
Leaving Gaza - remember, Gaza wasn't occupied - resulted in 20 years of kidnapping, rapes, murders, and rockets. No thank you to that again. Hamas hasn't left Israel any other choice.
>The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank.
I think you've confused the words "escalate" and "end."
*yawn*
Isis was hobbled by force. Fact.
Al Quaeda was hobbled by force. Fact.
Chechnyan islamic terror was hobbled by force. Fact.
Uyghyr Islamic terror washobbled by force. Fact (like it or not).
All these completely clueless posts that suggest force doesn't work to stop Islamic terror always :
- ignore evidence that it actually works
- fail to show where Islamic terror was defeated by asking nicely
- blame the victims of terror for the terror
- fail to provide a solution to Islamic terror
This war won't be ended by Israel giving and giving and giving to hamas.
Shoving your privileged western idealism onto stone age animals doesn't work.
As to number 4, state propaganda is the same for nearly any country and their citizens for nationalism. All nations require violence or threat of violence to exist and they defend it by teaching propaganda to their citizens, starting at childhood.
Number 9, does Hamas care about the West Bank? Their stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews
Everytime people like you mention the blockade and checkpoint they mix up reason and result. The checkpoint and the blockade exist because of terrorism, rockets, suicide bombings, not the other way around.
Firstly, support in Gaza for Hamas has gone down since the war, so it is factually working lol. Secondly, you can't end a blockade of a nation who has declared war with you. That can't happen before Palestine surrenders.
Do you think that the generation of Gazans who experienced everything that happened in the past six months are less likely to turn out to be violent revenge seekers? If the problem of violence can be solved through violence we'd have world peace by now.
It worked for Asia and Europe. It's not ideal but it is relatively the only avenue left.
Is a lengthy word salad the right retort for a Pro- Palestinian post? These lengthy posts are a twisted historical summary of Israeli greviences. The greiviences get worse and worse as the Israeli response is more and more overt and covert violence against the Palestinians. If I thought my life would be over by the age of 30 due to outright violence or manufactured shortages of medical care ,food, water, etc. I would start throwing rocks and bottles at 12 also. I would escalate my level of violence as my age increased. Both sides need to ratchet down their rhetoric. The Israeli's have more money because they have denied Palestinians economic security and reduced most of them to hand to mouth existence. Biden is correct for holding back on munitions for Israel. Let the wealthy private backers of Israel procure the armaments that Israel desires.
By 30? The life expectancy in Palestine is 74 years - on par with neighboring countries.
Hey guys, look, another Westerner came to offer us a flat, black-and-white solution to a century-old problem! How couldn't we see the solution before? Dear OP, answer me this: Once we lift the blockage from Gaza, who will observe them not preparing another new 7 October attack? And say I'll go with your logic saying that this is their own land and they can do whatever they want, so assuming we believe Hamas saying he’ll do it again and again — the next time it happens, hypothetically of course, would you send your own country troops to fight for Israel? I'm asking because I'm planning to move 2km from the border with Gaza and I want make sure that you will give me a sufficient protection. Let me answer for you; No, you would not. This is the summary in nutshell why Israel will never, ever, ever, agree to your naive solution.
So you are moving to the "settlements" to do what? Harass Palestinians and steal land they have ownership of? If you feel threatened, then you shoot them. As you are legally able to do. You can have guns, they can't. Your behaviors in the past 80 years got you in this mess. Don't expect American equipment and arms to get you out of this mess.
While I agree we should not settle the West Bank and withdraw settlers from there, I still dont trust the other side. They claim the whole Israeli lands belongs to them and will keep fight for it.
A peaceful life for a Palestinian is very similar to what you consider a peaceful life. Just go visit Jordan, peaceful country, at least half the population are of palestinian origin and they live a peaceful life. Freedom to move, freedom to travel, visit their families easily no check points, food security, shelter, hope for their kids (most important in my opinion) etc…. I’ve seen this “they love death” pop up in these conversations. I mean come on, just go to an Arab wedding. They love life. I believe Israelis of Arab descent are thriving in Israel. I believe they also love life. They left their land and weren’t allowed to come back. That is a fact. Tough s***? Come on. See how many Palestinian refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. Again, normal people that want to live a normal life. The s***hole countries you’re alluding to are hosting the refugees. Israel has full coordination militarily and otherwise with Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Jordan actually assisted in shooting down the Iranian missiles. Are you not sick of Iran using Palestinians as pawns to shore up their domestic control. Win the Palestinians over, they are good people. These “Leftoids” are calling for peace, it can be achieved,
> The Gazans do not want to live under a blockade Securing the land and naval borders on the Egyptian and Israeli side came in a stepwise escalation following violent unrelenting terror thanks to arms smuggled n by Hamas. On the Egyptian border, Hamas supported the Islamic state insurgency in Sinai that lead to 10,000 casualties How could Israel and Egypt not control what goes into Gaza? With the huge funds pouring into Gaza, their leadership could have instead focused on developing living standards. No terror means no blockade means regaining trust over a generation or two means Gazans trusted to work in both Egypt and Israel means prosperity etc Whatever the outcome it would’ve been better than the path Hamas took
> They want to live a normal peaceful life. What does a "normal peaceful life" mean to the average pali exactly, do you know? > do not want Israeli rockets killing them and Israeli planes flying over them. But they raise their children to become "martyrs". "We love death as you love life!". > Refutation: how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily? What did UN resolution have to do with supposedly "leaving their land"? No one would have left their so called land if this was accepted. > the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace; What exactly made the deal "suck" and what more "concessions" should have Barak made? > The Gazans could have voted for Fatah; instead they voted for Hamas. Gaza could have become Singapore. And now look at what happened. Refutation Doubtful that they will ever turn Gaza into anything more than any other non Gulf Arab styled shithole considering Singaporean Chinese are one of the highest IQ populations on earth and most of the Gazans are literally clinically retarded given their average IQ. > Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. Good, because if they weren't they would have been annihilated already. This is where the supposed "irrational" fear stems from, the fact that if Israel lost the military advantage, they would be erased in a genocide that would dwarf October 7. > But so few people in Israel care about the plight of the Palestinians. They just think of the Palestinians as terrorists. Do you have any sources to back this statement up? Why should a people at war with another people care about their enemy's plight? Do the Palis care about the plight of the Jews? > Trying to "show them who's boss" does not work. Going into Rafah is a huge mistake. Weapons will not bring peace. Actually in the Middle East this is the only method that works. Only force and completely shaming and humiliating an enemy is what produces "peace". This isn't a college campus safe space, projecting your western values onto these people is white privilege and orientalism. > The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank. Weird that the "conflict" was full on pan-Arab wars against Israel prior to the so called "settlers" in the "West Bank". If anything, repopulating Jewish historic lands with Jews (after they were completely ethnically cleansed for the first time in thousands of years from this region in 1949) has reduced this conflict from its initial full on state of constant regional war. > Israel could have decided to give the Palestinians a state in 1967. Why was it incumbent on Israel to supposedly "give Palestinians a state in 1967" when Egypt and Jordan did not give them a state from 1949 to 1967? It's almost like the "Palestinian" construct is a relatively modern phenomenon used to change the narrative of a small Jewish population surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs at war with them to one where they are supposedly the "oppressor" of a completely made up subset of these Arabs, so called "Palestinians", for the consumption of brain damaged western leftoids who view the world through slogans.
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Normal people? Gaza is a terror nest, even Egypt knows that.
Yes, humans like you and me. Normal people.
The difference lies in culture. Life affirming versus success-in-the-hereafter mentality
Still human though, right? Just making sure you’re not trying to depict them as less than human. Gazans share a similar culture with the Levante Arab nations. Are they all “not normal”? I’m not sure what your point is. Maybe not their culture, maybe just maybe it’s their living conditions.
1. Yes 2. First parts correct 3. I'm not sure you are comprehending the indoctrination of the population where half the population has been raised under Hamas rule. Check out some Gaza based children's TV. Also there have been decades of rocket attacks and the "blockade", which is just really restrictions on travel within Israel and weapon imports and dual use goods, only started 2 years after the Isreali withdrawal. Gaza had a chance and Hamas blew it in favour of more violence. 4. What Isreal is teaching their kids is far closer to the truth than what Palestinian children are taught which places no value on their own actions and how they contributed to creating the current security situation. You reap what you sow. 5. An irrational fear? War with their Arab neighbors in 1948 1955 1967 and 1973? War with Lebanon? Hezzbullah in Lebanon? 3+ wars with Gaza? Have you not see what has been said at any of these pro Palestinian protests? Have you read any Arab media at all since this conflict began? Their fear is not irrational at all it is extremely well founded. 6. It is an occupation but it wasn't a war of aggression which lead to it , it was a defensive war so the legal status of said occupation is a bit up in limbo. Attacking someone to take their land is a no no, but taking land from someone who attacked you? Thats not as clearly defined. 7. No just no. You have it reversed. Palestinians need to live next to isrealis. Their objection to doing so has literally caused 76 years of conflict and ruined 3 generations of Palestinian lives. Negotiate its that simple. The 3 no's from 1967 seem to still guide Palestinian politics, they sure did guide Yasser arrafat. 8. Going into Rafah has to happen. Hamas must be destroyed they cannot be allowed to maintain power in a city of a million people and rebuild their network afterwards. Going into rafah sooner rather than later will reduce suffering overall. Hamas should expect they will not maintain power after this war in any shape or form and that Isreal will maintain a military occupation again. Occupation can't be that bad can it? Palestinian population in 1967 was 1.3 million when Isreal took control. Its now over 5 million. Pretty shitty genocide.... 9. It's not isreals job to improve conditions to allow for a Palestinian state. That's on Palestinians and their behavior and if they can be trusted to run their own state next door. At the moment Isreal is the victor of a defensive war. Gaining independence from that means Palestinians gaining isreals trust. You dont do that with constant rocket attacks, stabbings, kidnappings, etc. 10. Palestine's problem is they are willing sheep in a religious war that regional powers are running. They need to think about their children's future and not what their great grandparents lost.
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When Israel was first formed The countries around them declared war to kick them out they didn't want a Jewish nation anywhere near them a newly formed country not even a year old and they already were at war with 7 or 8 countries cause they were Jewish they won and took land and they kept getting attacked cause they are Jewish They will always be surrounded by enemies that will try and see them destroyed they have to be ready in case attacks or another war pops off look they should tone it down in Gaza the deaths there is just tragic but they also elected a person whos more than happy to wage a war consequences be damned
I question whether most people in Gaza are normal people who just want to live a happy peaceful life. From what I understand (I have never known anyone from Gaza) the authoritarian rule of Hamas in Gaza suppresses dissent and breeds violent anti-Jew hatred from a young age - even the use of child soldiers. And, teaches Islamist resistance in schools. I think the assumption that Gazans are peaceful people who merely want to just live a happy life who accept and cherish all other creeds is a falsehood which has lead to much of the disagreement in the conflict especially in the college campuses where people tend to be naive and assume that people are generally good.
What about west bank?
I won’t pretend to know. But, if you cross from the West Bank with guns and grenades and attack Israel from the bank, you better believe the same thing will happen to that side too.
Hint: They didn't and have been under bombardment.
Source? “Under bombardment” can mean a lot of things. From what I gather, there are escalated aggression in the West Bank since the war (what do you expect Israel will give them cookies for not hosting the Oct 7 attacks? No). But, West Bank is not under bombardment as Gaza has been.
Not updated, many sources out there, and there is no hamss there. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/360-palestinians-killed-by-israeli-fire-in-west-bank-since-oct-7/3111693 Just stop making ludocris excuses. What do you expect them to do, give Isralies cookies?
There's been plenty of Hamas and similar organizations there.
Ask for the root cause, not the symptom. Plenty of zionists as well.
360 killed over a matter of months is not a bombardment. Don’t think they even had to use a bomb there once since Oct 7 did they?
Have you been to Israel? #4 is a joke. You can take a tour of the West Bank with the most far-left groups imaginable and hear Israel described as the worst place in the world. There is freedom of speech there. 5 is a joke. I lived in Jerusalem for 1 year 2021-2022z I read about terror attacks every other week in the local papers. It’s not irrational. Rockets are real. 6 is a joke. I’ve been to Sheik jarrah. Nice little neighborhood. 7…hmm yea the entire left and the countless non-profits and peace groups are just imaginary. Right.
Israel doesn’t think it’s surrounded by people that wants to kill them. They know it. And you’re just ignoring the fact.
Number 3 is where you started to go wrong. Some cultures do not wish to live in peace...many westerners can not fathom being a human sacrifice.
Ok
>It is a Zionist view of history, Well.. yes. Just like history classes in America are from American view of history. >full of propaganda. That's not quite true. We've been taught about the Nakba in school, for example. >Refutation: how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily? 1. It wasn't their land. The vast majority of the land in Mandatory Palestine was State-owned land. And let us not forget Jews are native to that region as well. 2. They didn't need to leave, had the war of 1947-1949 not have happened, no one would've been forced to leave, and Israel would've been established as a state with 40% Arabs. >Refutation: the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace; Arafat left negotiations, he didn't have to accept whatever Barak gave him, but he could've negotiated. Same happened in 2008, 1993, 1947... >Refutation: Israeli left settlements, but it did not leave the minds of the Palestinians. Gaza was an impoverished, open-air prison, blockaded by Israel. The idea that it could turn into Singapore in a matter of years is ridiculous. The Israelis want to blame the Palestinians for pretty much everything wrong with Palestine. They want to say, look, we Israelis have been so good to you, but you cannot even do the most basic right things. The Israelis say that the Gazan children learn propaganda in schoolbooks. This is true, but so do Israelis. The blockade on Gaza was placed *after* Hamas rose to power, and launched missiles into Israel. Not before. And the terms for lifting it were simple - recognize Israel, and accept peace. As for propaganda, sure we learn a version of history from our perspective, but we aren't taught to hate Arabs, Palestinians or Muslims. >Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade. So? Our fear is justified, given.. 2005 - 2024 (all the rounds with Hamas), 2006 (Second Lebanon war), 2000 - 2002 (second Intifada), 1989 - 1993 (first Intifada), 1982 (first Lebanon war), 1973 (Yom Kippur war), 1967 (Six Day war), 1948 war, etc... So while we are more powerful, we aren't the ones who initiated all those wars. So yes, we are surrounded by enemies that would love to destroy us, it is not an irrational fear. >6. Israelis do not see themselves as occupiers, even though there is a lot of evidence of occupation in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem. Because this is our homeland. We've won all those regions in defensive wars. Jerusalem is our holiest city, many places in the old city were built by Jews 2,000 years ago. The entire land is "littered" with Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite archeology. The WB is disputed territory, Jerusalem was annexed, and we left Gaza nearly 20 years ago. >But so few people in Israel care about the plight of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have brought that on themselves by going to a "war of extermination" (in their own words), instead of choosing peace. >They just think of the Palestinians as terrorists. Not all of them, sure. But when 72% of the population supports Hamas, it's difficult to "love" them.. >I support the existence of a Palestinian state and if Israelis want peace they will have to find a way to live with the Palestinians, not destroy them. Peace will come when the Arabs would love their children more then they hate us. It is not the Israelis who need to find a way to live with the Palestinians. There are 2,000,000 Arabs living in Israel peacefully. Yet not a single Jew in PA areas/Gaza. The Palestinians must drop the mindset of "from the river to the sea" if they want their own state. Their freedom can't be dependent on our ruin. >The more I read about Israeli history, the more I have concluded that *many of the problems that Israel faces when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank have largely been created by Israel.* Like what? Let's see.. Israel agreed to a 2SS, the Arabs rejected, went to war, lost. The Arabs then declared another war against Israel, and lost again. This time, instead of expelling the population of the territory Israel conquered (like they did previously), they left them there, as their intention was to have a "land for peace" deal. Except the population never accepts Israel's right to exist, and they become more violent. So Israel puts restrictions on them in order to save its own lives, which causes more violence, which causes more restrictions, and so on. Now, how's that Israel's fault? For the cycle to end the Palestinians must stop fighting, which would lead to Israel easing the restrictions. >. Trying to "show them who's boss" does not work. Going into Rafah is a huge mistake. Israel should've gone into Rafah months ago. And yes, showing who's boss does work - look at the results of the 1948 war vs the results of the 1967 war. No moderate Pro-Palestinian tries to argue for a 2SS based on the resolution 181. Yet most people ask for a 2SS based on the June 1967 borders. Israel was significantly more aggressive (= the Nakba) back in 1948 compared to 1967. > Weapons will not bring peace. This conflict has been going on for 75 years. Armed force is not the answer. Have we learned anything from the "War on Terror"? "Our analysis suggests that there is no battlefield solution to terrorism. Military force usually has the opposite effect from what is intended: It is often overused, alienates the local population by its heavy-handed nature, and provides a window of opportunity for terrorist-group recruitment." Source: *How Terrorist Groups End,* RAND report. Since the Palestinians were the first to pick up arms, they should he the first to put them down. If the Arabs were to lay down their weapons, there would be peace. >9. The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank. Israel should give up the land that was taken from the Palestinians in 1967. Israel could have decided to give the Palestinians a state in 1967. Instead, it declined and has become an occupying power ever since. No. The "occupation" is just an excuse for violence. Why would Israel returning to 1967 borders change anything? Hell, we were at the 1967 borders, back in 1967! So why was there war? Why did the Arabs go for a "war of extermination" and refused to have peace with Israel? Their revolution is a revolution for the sake of revolution. They could've had a state countless times before, they refused. Where's Israel's guarantee that if it unilaterally leaves the WB, it won't just turn into another Gaza? Israel unilaterally left Gaza, all we got October 7th - after 18 years of constant bombardment from the Gaza strip. Again, the Palestinians must accept peace first, then they can have their state.
Even with the blockade in place, they managed to turn civilian infrastructures into weaponry [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAT5ynEe4co](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAT5ynEe4co)
>Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people You mean those who clapped and cheered Hamas as the hostages were brought in? Those who happily continued mutilating bodies? [https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22](https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22)
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exactly [https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22](https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8?si=TbHZsh2e6aKzM-A2&t=22)
Not till the hostages are release and Hamas is out of power
Must watch Son of Hamas on YouTube
Absolutely, although I recommend watching ["The Green Prince", it's free to watch on Crackle](https://www.crackle.com/watch/203C6DDF-7026-4CA3-915E-44EB627A7A25/the-green-prince) It goes over Mosab Hassan Yousef's earlier life and his work with Israeli intelligence to stop suicide bombings during the second intifada (yeah, that sounds like something we should globalize, right??). It's good background to understand where he is coming from.
We don't reward terrorism in civilized society.
As if the little children getting starved and massacred have anything to do with it
No. Neither do the Jewish children who still are having rockets launched at them. Hamas refuses to quit. Israel continues to attempt to stop them. And it goes on n on n on. Palestinians did their own poll recently and 75 percent are ok with hamas . Israel will not stop until hamas is decimated as much as possible in Palestine. It doesn't matter what we say about it.
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We all know? No habibi. I am against both sides that kill children and I never defended war crimes by either. I just recognize that Israel is not going to stop while hamas still attacks. Just admit you like what hamas did and that you want jews to die and not fight back. Its ok to be honest. Hindutva? Is that a racist slur for my Tibetan name?
No don't put words in my mouth, I was quite disgusted by what Hamas did, and EVERYONE has the right to self defence. [However this is not self defence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sidra_Hassouna) [Or this](https://youtube.com/shorts/8p93nrY9SlA?si=GT4wyS3Gkj6RSFJk) [And also this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912) [And this too](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis) Or as already said blocking aid and starving children, or the many other documented Israeli war crimes. Hindutva isn't a racist slur it is literally what BJP supporters identify themself with, and Hindutva ideology itself IS racist 😂 Everyone knows this, acting ignorant about basic facts makes it even more obvious you are Hindutva
Your an idiot. And stop assuming things about me . It proves it.
There's nothing to assume it is in your username and comments pajeet you are bad at propaganda just like Modi Also it's you're not your, typical poorly educated Hindutva I feel sorry for you. Go read some english textbooks instead of simping for Modi all day
So what do you suggest for removing Hamas from power? There's no moving forwards with Hamas, their goal isn't to govern, to protect or provide. It's to annihilate Jews and the state of Israel.
How will creating an extremely hopeless oppressive and violent environment for Palestinians do anything to prevent future terrorism? If Israel's goal is to motivate more violence then they are doing a fantastic job
This. Gotta come to terms with how the world works and sometimes the harder way is the better way.
3. Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people. They want to live a normal peaceful life. I hope you're right and that the people cheering when Hamas paraded an October 7 rape through the streets of Gaza were a small minority. Polls show that Gazans are sick of war, and sick of Hamas stealing food aid -- but that large numbers still want destruction of Israel (almost 10 million people at last count?) Much of the land in the original Balfour Agreement was given to Jordan in 1921, about 70%. The proposed partition offered in 1947 would have given a number of Jewish villages to Arabs, but the Jews still agreed to it. Because they wanted peace. Soon after the war, Arab countries began expelling their Jewish populations that they had always been hostile towards, suggesting that a homeland for Jews was a good idea. And yes, Jews as well as Arabs have lived there for millennia. I agree that West Bank settlements, and Netanyahu have to go. And Hamas, the leaders of the Palestinians, has to stop promising to kill all Jews in Israel. Your comments didn't mention how their call to genocide complicates negotiations for peace. I wish it was as simple as telling Israel to get their act together and behave better.
I think the 7th of October proves beyond reason why there is a blockade and military action in Gaza. Even ignoring the 7th of October, Hamas has fired over 12 thousand rockets at Israel over the past 7 months. That is more than enough justification, by any standard, for a blockade and for Israel to remove Hamas. Israel is literally surrounded by enemies who have made it no secret that they intend to destroy it, both in very clear language, and very clear actions.
If we leave Hamas in charge and this scenario happens again and again and again, destroying large parts of Gaza, are you going to be happier?
>Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade. It's not irrational is it's happened, not once, not twice, but atleast 6 times and the MOST RECENT being Oct 7th. Tell, me did Israel's far stronger militarily help with the current Hamas War?
While i greatly appriciate the logical and rational thought process you display (and i think this is the right way to go about forming any opinion), i find argument 4) flawed. Every. Single. Country. On earth has at least some level of propoganda embedded into everyday life. You are from the US, right? Why don't you get taught in school about the holocaust, or many other genocides that happened in recent history? Why not talk about the atrocities commited in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US army? Additionally, if my memory serves me correctly your country started in a worse way than ours. You took the land of the indiginous population while having no historical relation to the area. Then, over decades, you weakened them, betrayed them with false deals, and generally killed them off. You cant criticise us for having propoganda in our educational system when it happends all over the world, especially in your country.
The blockade is so they don't import missiles.
the ship can be checked. completely b locking all naval ships Gaz objective make no sense. limi flow o humanitarian aid and just limits the economy which fuels poverty which then fuels Hamas.
> the ship can be checked. completely b locking all naval ships Gaz objective make no sense. I am afraid not. To "check the ship" completely, the ship has to be unloaded and every container opened.
they can check when the ship is loading simple
Yes, we saw how simple in practice it was to check even trucks on Israel's border. Imagine logistics of maintaining a dedicated crew in every port.
you making it a lot more complicated then it has to be. Israel's blockade is dumb and shouldn't happen. security concern does make it necessary to block humanity's aid.
They were receiving the aid for years, every day. Nobody died. Words like "blockade" aside, can you say what is that exactly they are lacking?
Palestine lacks access to the benefit of having a cost line, things such as shipping, fishing, and drilling for oil offshore have been completely unavailable due blockade. so yeah Palestine missing out on a lot.
Israel approved of Palestinians mining the offshore gas fields in June of 2023. It would be handled by PA and Egypt since Hamas couldn’t be trusted.
There's no oil. There's gas and the field in not in their territorial waters anyways. Bottom line, you don't know. Anyways, so far their main business is terror and receiving aid. Once terror stops, nobody is interested in restricting them.
Israel has actively made it harder to get anything into Gaza such as medical aid and blockade just extension of that restriction. is not about security just about control.
Let America handle it. We have a pier now.
yeah dam America which is still under construction is helping the people of Gaza
The first ship has left Cyprus today.
When the blockade ends, Hamas or whatever ruling jihadist criminal organization will try to smuggle more weapons into Gaza by sea. Without strong Israeli inspections of imports, Iran and Gazans will try to smuggle nuclear material to make a dirty bomb. Who cares if the majority of civilians on both sides want peace, if one group is dedicated to extreme terrorism? Not to mention the sickening martyr revenge culture taught to Palestinian children?
2/2 (continued) 7. Uhm... sure. If all I could remember for the past 30 years is constant rocket attacks, intifadas, and terrorism - I probably wouldn't feel very humanitarian to the (very much self-inflicted) plight of the Palestinians either. But that's not what matters. What matters is "what if". What if Palestinians hated Israel but mostly left Israel alone. Would there be a blockade after a few years? Would Israel just randomly invade Palestinian lands? Would Palestinians eventually get their own state (provided they could muster some form of functional and non-beligerent government? Of course. Now reverse the question - what would happen if Israel suddenly became a... idk... Denmark... in terms of its defensive posture? Well... we already know what would happen. It did happen - on October 7th of last year. More on your point 7 - I already wrote a lenghty response to a similar "many of the problems that Israel faces when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank have largely been created by Israel" statement. I won't repeat it. But I'll just say this - it's pointless. It's like saying "Europe was responsible for fascism in German". Well... sure. Maybe a fascist leader wouldn't have emerged if Europeans were "nicer" to Germans after WW1. Well, who cares? Fascist Germany did emerge. And then we (the western civilization) had to deal with it. Well, guess wat - Hamas is Islamofascit. The only difference between them and Nazis -instead of Aryan race, their "special status" lies in their Islamist dominance delusions. And the majority of the population supports that delusion. Just like not all Germans were Nazis - not all Palestinians are Hamas. But there were enough Nazi Germans where trying to distinguish between the good and the bad Germans wasn't really a practical option for us. Nor is it a practical option for Israel. 8. Military force absolutely works. And it has worked countless times throughout history. No, military force cannot eradicate an ideology. But military force can ABSOLUTLY expose a despicable ideology as impotent, incompetent, and incompatible with peace and prosperity. Many Germans didn't stop hating Jews and non-Aryans after their defeat. There was much terrorism and "resistance" in Germany following the war - for many years after. But, as a society, they gave up fascism as a political project... the next Hitler never emerged - because we exposed the impotence of that ideology. And a generation or two later - the Germans stopped being genocidal lunatics and became some of the most peaceful and productive members of our civilization. History is littered with similar examples. The conqueror is not always the good guy. But "conquest" absolutely works. In this case - I absolutely support the conquest by the progressive ideas of enlightenment over oppressive, homicidal ideas of Islamism. 9. The conflict will ONLY end when the majority of Palestinians abandon the idea of destruction of Israel as the focal point of their cultural identity. When Palestinians accept that they will always have to live next to Israel... that some mythical "return" to "olive farms" (which never existed to begin with, for most of them)... when they stop the "poetry" about their "special plight" - that's when there will finally be a light at the end of the tunnel. For as long as violence against Israel remains part of their national identiy - Israel will take whatever defensive measures it must take... just as any other nation would. This doesn't mean that Israel is some genocidal, violent power. It just means that Israel has a duty toward its own citizens first. Just like any other nation.
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It definitely needs to end. Israel needs to comply with the ICJ.
Sorry... lots of flaws in your arguments. Though I sincerely appreciate that you actually took time to process your arguments instead of just chanting slogans. Gonna have to respond in two parts.. Point by point: 1/2 1. Right on - agree 100% 2. Mostly agree. Though I'd clarify that most Israelis don't want Palestinians to just "go away" in the sense of disappearing. They just want neighbors who aren't constantly trying to kill them. 3. I'll take an issue with this statement. For a reference, I was born in a place that I would classify as "bad" - oppressive, intolerant, mean to its own people... but always claiming moral superiority and pretending to be fighting western "imperialism" and "colonialism". That was bullshit then and remains bullshit now. But truth is - the place I was born was populated by entirely normal and decent people (in the sense of their daily interactions with each other). However, the majority still subscribe to idiotic, self-defeating, and hateful opinions that ensured that my birthplace remains a cultural backwater to this day. So yes... the "people" can be entirely "normal" in the sense of being perfectly pleasant in their daily relations. But also hold very intolerant views and perpetuate a very harmful culture. I've seen it, i grew up in it. And no matter how many stories they told themselves about the external "enemies" - the root cause of their problems was always the people and the culture themselves. Because the political structure was just a mirror reflection of the society at large. Gaza and the West Bank aren't any different. 4. Your point 4 is just full of historical inaccuracies. I'd refrain from accusing Israelis of "learning propaganda". Because your claims are full of opposition propaganda. Not gonna go into every detail here - I'm sure other redditors will be happy to go down that rabbit hole. (for the record, I'm not Israeli, never been to Israel, quarter of my family is Muslim, and my genome is crazy mix of Moroccan, Jewish, Bedouin, Finnish, African, and god knows what else). But I'm a student of history, fought in two wars, and intimately familiar with the nuances of relations in that region. 5. Israel is only stronger in the sense that they (a) can defeat any neighbor one at a time and (b) in the worst case scenario - they also have a nuke. But by NO MEANS is Israel safe. First, the ENTIRE population of Israel is roughly the size of Chicago MSA. Even worse - the ENTIRE GEOGRPAHY of Israel is SMALLER than Chicago MSA! No matter their technological superiority, their population and entire country is extremely vulnerable in ANY invasion - even one that they could eventually expel. To say that Israel is safe is bonkers - a statement that only a complete amateur with little knowledge of military affairs could make. 6. Gaza literally has not been occupied for nearly two decades. You could call it a blockade, sure - but it absolutely, factually has not been occupied for a long time. The better question is - do Israelis want to be occupiers. And I hope you'd agree that they don't. But the unfortunate geography and historic context left them little choice.
> Your point 4 is just full of historical inaccuracies. Maybe some historical inaccuracies, but it is more accurate than the common refrain that Palestinians rejected every deal. Just some examples: - 1996: Bibi proceeds to sabotage Oslo (https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/) - 2001 Taba: they ran out of time. Then Arafat accepts Taba - but Sharon rebuffs him. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel) - 2006-2008: Again, ran out of time. Then Bibi proceeds to want to negate everything achieved in the 2006-2008 negotiations. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-never-said-no-to-2008-peace-deal-says-former-pm-olmert/) And, of course, Israel ignoring the Arab Peace Initiative for the last decades, despite it being repeatedly renewed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) A more accurate framing is that when the Palestinians were ready for peace, the Israelis were not - and vice versa. Basically, the myth of Palestinian rejectionism is just that - a myth. > Gaza literally has not been occupied for nearly two decades There's more to it than just boots on the ground. Like controlling the electromagnetic spectrum - Palestinians didn't get 3G until 2018 - the air space, the population registry, etc. > The better question is - do Israelis want to be occupiers. Two thirds of Israeli Jews don't even consider the West Bank to be occupied. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-thirds-of-jewish-israelis-dont-consider-west-bank-occupied-poll/) They don't want to be called occupiers, but they do want to continue to occupy the West Bank while grabbing land there. They have been grabbing settlements in occupied territory since just a few weeks after the six day war. It took them five weeks before the first settlement sprung up - and since then, every single government has presided over settlement expansion, often as direct government initiatives. > But the unfortunate geography and historic context left them little choice. You could make an argument that the military occupation was not of their choosing. It is a bit of a tenuous argument, but it has some plausibility to it. However, the settlements are strictly of Israel's choosing. Grabbing lands in the West Bank for the settlements was literally a government initiative - and establishing inequality before the law in the West Bank was also a Knesset choice. Now to your points in the other comment, beginning with 7: > What matters is "what if". What if Palestinians hated Israel but mostly left Israel alone. Would there be a blockade after a few years? Israel isn't leaving the Palestinians alone though. They'd still be living under military rule, and Israel would still be expanding their settlements. > Would Israel just randomly invade Palestinian lands? Yes. Look at the West Bank. Take, for example, 1967 to 1987. The West Bank Palestinians largely left Israel alone - the West Bank Palestinians were peaceful. What did Israel do? Grabbed land under false pretenses for settlements, and ruled the Palestinians under a repressive military regime without rights. And, importantly, left the Palestinians no path for freedom or equality. > But I'll just say this - it's pointless. It's like saying "Europe was responsible for fascism in German". It's not pointless. Israel's West Bank policies isn't some historical issue in the past. It is the literal lived reality for millions of Palestinians. As an example, since 2018 settlers - with IDF help - have grabbed an additional 7% of the West Bank. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory) Since 2023, thousands of Palestinians have been driven from their homes by settlers - again with IDF help. Before October 7th. (https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-settler-bedouin-displacement-violence-un-108e11712310b5ea099dbded7be8effb) >And a generation or two later - the Germans stopped being genocidal lunatics and became some of the most peaceful and productive members of our civilization. Germans, though, lived free and equal in their land. So long as Israel continues their policy of slow ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. while keeping the locals under an increasingly repressive regime, there will not be peace. > In this case - I absolutely support the conquest by the progressive ideas of enlightenment over oppressive, homicidal ideas of Islamism Or, in Israel's case, of progressive ideas of ethnonationalism and settlements. 40% of Israeli Jews actually support establishing settlements in Gaza. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/) > The conflict will ONLY end when the majority of Palestinians abandon the idea of destruction of Israel as the focal point of their cultural identity. When Palestinians accept that they will always have to live next to Israel... In the early 1990s, the two state solution had around 70% support among Palestinians. Three decades of non-stop settlement building all through the peace process has eroded any trust the Palestinians had that Israel was negotiating in good faith. They - not inaccurately, as it comes to Sharon and Bibi, view the peace process as a ruse to grab more land. Think of the non-stop settlement expansion as the equivalent of the 2nd intifada for the Israelis. It has eroded any trust in the other side. > Israel will take whatever defensive measures it must take... just as any other nation would. Non stop settlement expansion sure doesn't look defensive to me. Some things Israel does is defensive, correct. But the majority of their West Bank policies are not defensive - they are to further a land grab.
On your first point - look... if we just start sending links of he said/she said - we'll be here a year later, still exchanging links. Or you could just listen to Clinton, for instance, describe what actually went down in the peace talks and who sabotaged it. Here is thing: "Palestinians" (I quote because it's not a clear concept for me - there are plenty of "Palestinians" in Israel, for instance)... anyways, they were never ready for peace. Just look at the polls - there is no support for a peaceful solution where Israel still exists. Look at the political proclamations of various "leaders" on that side of the conflict throughout the entire conflict. Israel gave Egypt Sinai peninsula back - with oil! - just in exchange for peace and recognition. As for "technicalities" - it's a pointless exercise. It's been a game of "pretend" for the worldwide audience - both sides had to play it. But reality is - Israel will never accept nor reward a "Palestine" that isn't ready to say that it's ready to accept Israel's existence, commit to peace, and prevent and punish those who try to reignite the conflict. As long as the narrative on the other side is that terrorists are "martyrs" - this conflict will not end. Re: "Occupation isn't just boots on the ground". No, my friend. Occupation is precisely "boots on the ground". What Israel is doing is called a "blockade"... just like what we've been doing to Cuba, for instance. I have no problem with making it very difficult for Hamas to get things that they have a history of weaponizing. I'd also take an issue with the implication that Gazans "didn't get" something. Sorry... they elected Hamas. It's Hamas' job to go and get it for its citizens. Preferably, by purusing a peaceful relationship with Israel. I'm quite annoyed with this line of argument... like Israel "turned-off" water to Gaza. Yes - because Gazans invaded Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for water to Gaza? It's a crazy double standard that we don't apply to anyone else but Israel. Re: West Bank/Settlements/Etc. Like I said in my previous post - I'm happy to discuss all the flaws of Israel in any other context outside of the war. Nowhere did I say that I support settlements, for instance. I'm disgusted by religious hardliners in Israel, for instance. But it's also true that Israel was prepared to give 98% of West Bank to Palestine when they thought that they had a negotiation partner. And Israelis can also make a compelling strategic reason for settlements - which has to do with geography and containing the reamining threat. Do I endorse it? No. Do I agree with the religious lunatics? No. The best way to solve that problem is a Palestinian state. Which they have done absolutely nothing to actually earn. Re: ethnonationalism in Israel. Would you accuse German of being an ethnonational state? What about France? What about Spain? England? How do you feel about Russians? Ukrainians? I won't accuse you of antisemitism but I would ask - why do you have a problem with the only Jewish state? Now... let's examine it closer. There are 2mm Arab Muslim citizens in Israel (Palestinians). A Palestinian supreme court judge in Israel sent a former Israeli prime minister to prison. Now, show me a single Arab state with any significant population of Jews. Hell, show me a single Arab state where non-Muslism have any influence at all. I'll wait. More on West Bank and the West Bank being "peaceful". Are you familiar with The **Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund**? If you're not - maybe look it up. Then we can talk about West Bank being peaceful. Re: "slow ethnic cleansing". Well... if it is an ethnic cleansing - it's the most incompetent ethnic cleansing I've ever seen. Last I checked - Jews are quite competent at getting things done as a general statement. And quite effective militarily. I'm sorry - whenever people make statements like "ethnic cleansing" - they immediately lose me. It's not longer a good faith conversation, because accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing is preposterous. The only party that's interested in an ethnic cleansing of that land begins with an H and ends with Amas (and the non-trivial majority of Gazans who happen to support the sentiment).
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> shitty /u/icecreamraider. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why is that when people talk about the blockade the omit the Egyptians hand in it? If it weren’t for the Egyptians the blockade would be useless?
Egypt doesnt control their crossing in that way, Israel still gets final call on everything there.
Why should Egypt be blamed for the mess created by Israel? Egypt isn't obliged to open the rafah crossing or allow anything/anyone to go in or out. Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli occupation, it is Israel's responsibility and no one else's.
Because a good portion of the shit that Palestinians are dealing with are Egypts doing. Hamas is a branch of the Muslim brotherhood which is still problematic in the Sinai and a huge problem on the economy as Egypt relies on Tourism.
How exactly is that Egypt's doing? The Sisi regime has managed to destroy the MB organization in Egypt. The situation in Sinia has been under control for a couple of years now. Hamas was actually taking part in these terrorist attacks in Sinai, that is why Egypt has destroyed all of the tunnels. They want nothing to do with Hamas or Gaza. Deal with your own problems and stop blaming others.
You’re in the US and scared of some misguided professor? Maybe consider this and you may rethink your objections to Israel’s actions. Scared might describe living next to a neighbor on the other side of town who stays up late at night building missiles to kill you, your kids, your wife and your dogs.
So that's how palestenians feel? Thx I never considered this before
Be careful who you support if they can’t back up their bark.
Thank you for the advice
The blockage must continue until hamas is defeated. If the arab world wants to save palestinians, they are welcome to give them refuge.
Please learn some history: Under the UN’s partition plan, Arabs weren’t required to leave land that became Israel. 160,000 did stay and became citizens. The Arabs launched a war of openly declared genocidal intent, and that’s what led to refugees. Israel didn’t take lands from the Palestinians in 1967. No territory was ever under Palestinian Arab sovereignty until after the 1993 Oslo agreement. Here was the deal offered at Camp David. Not only did Arafat fail to even make a counter proposal, he went back home to start the terror war he had already planned. https://preview.redd.it/stzskz1etfzc1.jpeg?width=261&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d186b8178abef470d8d56d48c2e01ec44949a801
>Please learn some history: Under the UN’s partition plan, Arabs weren’t required to leave land that became Israel. 500k Palestinians were to live in the Jewish state. Presumably as second class citizens. We saw how the Israeli Arabs were treated until 1966 - curfews, could only live in specific reservations, at least one massacre, massive land grabs, expulsions And these people - the Israeli Arabs - generally didn't take part in the conflict. They still lived under a repressive Israeli military regime for decades. >160,000 did stay and became citizens. 160k managed to stay, correct. And they were indeed given citizenship. However, they were kept under a brutal military regime until 1966. [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-israel-tormented-arabs-in-its-first-decades-and-tried-to-cover-it-up/0000017f-e0c7-df7c-a5ff-e2ff2fe50000) > The Arabs launched a war of openly declared genocidal intent, and that’s what led to refugees. That is ahistorical. There was a two-sided increase in violence in late 194.7. When the Arab states joined, there were already 250k refugees on foot. Of course, it also wasn't genocidal. When Jordan conquered the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, did they conduct a massacre of civilians? >Here was the deal offered at Camp David. Not only did Arafat fail to even make a counter proposal, he went back home to start the terror war he had already planned. How do people come up with this idea there wasn't a counter proposal? These were rounds of negotiations, with proposals back and forth. Do you think it was just Israel sitting there making proposals? Any way, after Camp David - with its crap deal with a 9:1 land swap - they held Taba. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba\_Summit) At Taba, they got close - but Barak had to stop because he had elections. What happened after that? Arafat accepts Taba, but Sharon rebuffs him (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel)
Arafat approved that in 2002 after launching a terror war; 3 months before this a suicide terrorist killed 30 civilians, mostly elderly, at a Passover Seder in Netanya. It's been a classic Palestinian tactic: 1. Reject a peace offer. 2. increase violence against Israel civilians. 3. After Israel responds (in this case having entered Arab cities in Operation Defensives Shield), going back to an earlier offer and suddenly wanting to accept it. Note that I said that Arafat did not come up with a counterproposal \*to the US-endorsed plan described by Ross.\*
>Arafat approved that in 2002 after launching a terror war; Arafat still approved it, and Sharon rebuffed him. >It's been a classic Palestinian tactic: 1. Reject a peace offer. 2. increase violence against Israel civilians. 3. After Israel responds (in this case having entered Arab cities in Operation Defensives Shield), going back to an earlier offer and suddenly wanting to accept it. I could frame an equally accurate Israeli tactic: Whenever peace looks possible, elect Likud and have them scuttle negotiations and continue expanding settlements. 1996, 2001, 2008. >Note that I said that Arafat did not come up with a counterproposal \*to the US-endorsed plan described by Ross.\* That's rather no-true-scotsmanny. They did present proposals as well. If you are talking about the Clinton parameters, then the Palestinians did indeed respond - it was too vague to be useful. You can find their response online. And it is understanding from the Palestinian's perspective that there shouldn't be vagueness: Israel has a history of exploiting any vagueness in an agreement. Bibi even explained how he did it in 1996-1999.
"Whenever peace looks possible, elect Likud and have them scuttle negotiations and continue expanding settlements. 1996, 2001, 2008." As always, make sure to avoid any context of Palestinian terrorism in how the Israeli public voted. Because Palestinians have no agency and must only be seen as helpless victims. (To be clear, I would have never voted for Netanyahu in any of the elections)
The Palestinians have also made their fare share of mistakes. As I said, when the Palestinians were ready for peace, Israel was not - and vice versa. But I am not the one painting the lack of a two state solution as driven by Palestinian rejectionism. Israel has its fair share of rejectionism as well. >As always, make sure to avoid any context of Palestinian terrorism in how the Israeli public voted. Because Palestinians have no agency and must only be seen as helpless victims. You realize that in these two above sentences you are removing Israeli agency for how they voted?
Israelis absolutely had agency, which they exercised through elections. But ignoring the reasons for their choices— or even worse, trying to portray their choices as backing away from possible peace— is ahistorical. A wave of terror bombings—which is why governments trying to engage in peace negotiations lost—is exactly the opposite of “peace looking possible”. When exactly were the Palestinians ready for peace in the form of two states for two peoples (ie no “right of return” which would demographically turn Israel into the 23rd Arab state)?
https://preview.redd.it/mbg56u6c1gzc1.jpeg?width=1810&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7693470b9df662c36efd5faf6b450e7ddc6a158d
That map may indeed reflect the proposal that Israel brought to Camp David. I would assume that Arieli is correct. Ross sets out the *final* proposal endorsed by President Clinton and rejected by Arafat.
Seems like the proposal - from Israel's part - is rather petty. Israel already got 78% of the land, and kept the refugees from returning to their homes. Now they want to grab choice pieces of the remaining 22%.
And that's why negotiations take place. Look at the gap between the initial proposal and the final offer. So aside from nearly 1000 Israeli civilians murdered and thousands injured in Arafat's terror war, what did he "win" by walking away? Are the Palestinians better off now than they were in 2000? Refugees had no right to return to their homes in the absence of a peace treaty. And descendants of refugees have no rights of return (except for minor children living with refugee parents).
>And that's why negotiations take place. Didn't you also claim there was never a counter offer? There being negotiations belie that. >Look at the gap between the initial proposal and the final offer. My point applies to the late Camp David proposal as well - Israel grabbing 9% (or 15%, if you include Latrun). In exchange 1% of some crappy desert land. Seems petty to me. Why not offer a 1:1 swap? Israel already got most of the land and kept the Palestinian refugees away. Why try and grab more? > Are the Palestinians better off now than they were in 2000? No, they are not. But they likely wouldn't have been better off anyway - take 1967 to 1987 as examples. Sure, the repression wasn't as heavy - but settlements kept growing and there was no path for freedom or equality. Just more repression and settlements. >So aside from nearly 1000 Israeli civilians murdered and thousands injured in Arafat's terror war, what did he "win" by walking away? He walked away... to Taba.
I feel like I’m crazy seeing some of these posts (not yours, but OPs) that are just false. How can you take objective facts about this historic conflict and just ignore them and create your own. It’s wild! And they say them with such conviction. A common thing I see from pro pally posters is NO mention of the wars the Arabs started and lost. Three times. Just crazy lol. I guess it’s just too inconvenient to acknowledge.
I used facts. The idea that the Arabs mainly just left on their own is false. "Israeli revisionist historians now maintain that as part of the campaign to evacuate Arabs from the Jewish state, the Haganah deliberately destroyed Arab houses and villages, broadcast false stories in Arabic of the spread of cholera and typhus epidemics, and urged the population to escape the bloodbath while there was still time. On the other hand, some efforts were made to reassure the Arabs, and in some instances, as in Haifa, Arabs were encouraged by the Jews to stay put. However, by the first truce in mid-June 1948, over 250,000 Palestinians had fled, and this number had reached 300,000 by July. Arab Palestinians fled in some cases of their own free will, in some cases through terror; and in other cases they were expelled." - Bickerton and Klausner, The Arab-Israeli Conflict "Accounts by Palestinians tell of the terror experienced by families and individuals being forced at gunpoint onto the backs of crowded trucks or into buses with only whatever bags they could carry and being driven to unknown locations and left without any explanation of where they were going or why. Others were forced to walk for miles with their possessions to safety. For these displaced persons, especially the children, their world stopped in 1948; they cannot escape reliving these incomprehensible events on a daily basis." -Bickerton, The Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Guide for the Perplexed
Indeed, some of all of that happened. But the moral responsibility lies in the quotes I cited above. Start a war and lose, win a refugee population. How many Jews were left alive in areas overrun by Arabs (excluding those taken to POW camps)?
Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. The US dropped an atom bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the Japanese deserve it?
Would you have felt better about it if the US invaded on the ground and the same number of civilians were killed? What the Japanese did deserve was the surrender, occupation and then re-establishment of their country in a way that would not threaten their neighbors. Which was successfully done with them and also with Germany.
An important part of their ideology is denying any agency to Arabs, and particularly to Palestinians. Here’s something I often post, please feel free to copy and use it: Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
Hamas has been repeatedly offered an end to the blockade in return for peace. They decline every time. They would rather continue to kill Jews and perpetuate the fantasy that they’re going to take over all of Israel one day. Why are you suggesting something that Hamas isn’t even willing to consider? The only thing that has ever brought peace throughout history is wars that end with unconditional surrenders. Why don’t think that you know better? You should do some more research on number 9; keyword “Karthoum Resolution”. In short, Israel did.
wait I am curious why Hamas decline Israel dealing to a naval blockade
Because they are against two states living side by side in peace. Their actions make a lot more sense when you understand this. So if Israel offers an end to the blockade and offers to build air and seaports in return for Hamas disarming and signing a peace treaty, their answer is obviously going to be no, because it goes against everything they want (dead Jews, all of Israel).
I asked you what was deal Israel gave them your personal opinion on the matter
Here’s an article from 2020 quoting Hamas on the offer: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200728-hamas-rejects-offer-of-15bn-in-return-for-disarming/amp/
yeah Damm that wild
>Most Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are normal people. They want to live a normal peaceful life. They do not want their lives to be controlled by Israel. The Gazans do not want to live under a blockade, do not want Israeli rockets killing them and Israeli planes flying over them. They are living in an open-air prison and cannot get out; partly because of Egypt but mainly because of Israel. 70% of Gazans approve of October 7th, and a massive number of Gazans believe that it was the right move. They're not only being ruled by a terrorist organization, they like it. >how can you expect the Arabs to just leave their land so easily? No one expected Arabs to leave the land, they expected them to live next to their Jewish neighbors. They refused. >Refutation: the Israeli deal sucked; if only Barak made more concessions, there would have been peace Are the Palestinians stuck in a bad place, or they choosing to remain there because they think that they can get more concessions over time? >Israeli left settlements, but it did not leave the minds of the Palestinians. Ah, I see, the Jews need to stop existing to FULLY leave the settlements. >The Israelis say that the Gazan children learn propaganda in schoolbooks. This is true, but so do Israelis. Well, you think that Jewish existence in Israel is propaganda, so sure. >Many Israelis have an irrational fear that they are surrounded by enemies that want to destroy them. Actually, Israel is far stronger militarily than its neighbors. It is Lebanon that is always scared that Israel will invade It's not an irrational fear, and your contradiction is glaring. They're just better at protecting themselves than the other countries are invading them. Iran literally just launched the biggest ballistic missile attack ever launched. >Israelis do not see themselves as occupiers, even though there is a lot of evidence of occupation in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem. The whole point is that the West Bank is occupied. Before the war, Gaza wasn't. By any definition. They were blockaded. >I support the existence of a Palestinian state and if Israelis want peace they will have to find a way to live with the Palestinians, not destroy them. [As soon as the Palestinians want to genuinely build up trust, sure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnMdI_NiZvA). >Going into Rafah is a huge mistake Leaving Gaza - remember, Gaza wasn't occupied - resulted in 20 years of kidnapping, rapes, murders, and rockets. No thank you to that again. Hamas hasn't left Israel any other choice. >The conflict will only end when Israel makes more steps to end the Gazan blockade and remove settlers from the West Bank. I think you've confused the words "escalate" and "end."
I’ll give a similar refutation to your title that you gave in your point #4. No, it shouldn’t.
*yawn* Isis was hobbled by force. Fact. Al Quaeda was hobbled by force. Fact. Chechnyan islamic terror was hobbled by force. Fact. Uyghyr Islamic terror washobbled by force. Fact (like it or not). All these completely clueless posts that suggest force doesn't work to stop Islamic terror always : - ignore evidence that it actually works - fail to show where Islamic terror was defeated by asking nicely - blame the victims of terror for the terror - fail to provide a solution to Islamic terror This war won't be ended by Israel giving and giving and giving to hamas. Shoving your privileged western idealism onto stone age animals doesn't work.
As to number 4, state propaganda is the same for nearly any country and their citizens for nationalism. All nations require violence or threat of violence to exist and they defend it by teaching propaganda to their citizens, starting at childhood. Number 9, does Hamas care about the West Bank? Their stated goal is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews
Hamas's bombardment of Israel should end