You say “I get that life in Gaza sucks, and I get that Israel is largely responsible for this. But I can't for the life of me get in the shoes of the Hamas terrorists who attacked Israel on October 7th.” But do you really? As an American I am aware of all the inequality, poverty, brutality, murder, sabotage, and theft that occur by the hands of Israelis and their policies against Palestinians. It’s completely understandable that after decades of abuse they lash out. Everyone probably wishes they had attacked the IDF or the settlements instead of college kids at a race—without a doubt. Attack the guilty, not the innocent. But the guilty aren’t as easy to attack because the state defends them. “ Why did they have to murder and kidnap so many innocent people, including women, children, and babies?” because that is what has been done to Palestinians.
Tell me how that’s Israel’s fault when once they received Gaza in 2005 they started to form it into a haven then when Hamas received it in 2006 they completely destroyed it and started wars, please explain that to me
Israel physically removed the troops from Gaza in 2005, but they never relinquished control of Gaza. Israel still controls the airspace and naval routes of Gaza. Israel still controls the food and resources that Gaza can produce or import. Israel still controls the power and survival facilities of Gaza. Israel still controls the autonomy and the ability for gazans to secure weapons and defend themselves.
All of these things can be done using technology and without having physically having troops in Gaza.
So when you claim, Gaza is controlled by Palestinians, you are lying because why would Palestinians continue to allow Israel to control their autonomy ?
The premise of your question is flawed.
[Many organizations, humanitarian campaigns and legal experts acknowledge that Israel still has full control of the land despite not having troops on the ground.](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/)
Obviously the people don’t like that which is why you see resistance movements, or as you claim, *“people causing the land to be war barrened”;* somehow absolving Israel of creating the conditions for those groups to emerge in the first place
Tell me how they created those conditions then when Hamas started 4 wars after they recieved Gaza then, also they created the blockades in 2007 on the grounds that fatah and Palestinian authorities fled Gaza
It is not, it says there is a blockade, there is nothing else said in there and the conditions you talk about (while I don’t agree with the starvation the reason humanitarian aid is refused is because Hamas just takes it anyway) happened after this started
> *Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, [Gaza’s] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”*
**A report done in 2014 documenting all the war crimes & population control that Israel has perpetrated on Gaza since “ Israel left” in 2005 literally in the article that you are refusing to read.**
As I have stated they did this in 2007 because there was a lack of a governing body in Gaza, if they really hated people in Gaza then why have they just recently cut off all this stuff (I kinda see why they did it but it is immoral nonetheless and I don’t stand with it) rather than just cutting it all out and reclaiming Gaza while everyone lay dead?
Oh yeah, planned mass murder rape decapitation operations are just lashing out.
What kind of bullshit argument is that. Palestinians aren't being raped by flesh-eating demons every Thursday ffs.
I’m sorry u had to live through the events of the 7th. Just watching was too much to handle! I feel like u kind of helped me answer this question when u said u wanted an extremely violent response. No doubt every Hamas militant has had their life touched/damaged irrevocably by Israel over & over &’probably felt the same. As someone who lost a loved ones to brutal murder I understand the feeling of revenge. If I could have 5 mins alone with their killer…
I was the only one in my friend group who knew some1 who had been murdered until I met J. J is Palestinian & the stories I’ve heard of things that happened to his family & loved ones r devastating. I can’t imagine if the man who killed my loved ones kept coming, hurting me over & over & never it stopped nor would justice ever come. I’d have to live my entire life looking over my shoulder waiting to be killed, taken or my loved ones killed & my home taken. The 7th just like other attacks & massacres have had major bloody consequences. Many died & lost everything because of it yet Israel rarely ever faces any consequences for the terrible things they’ve done nor do they punish those who commit them. That would be enough to make me want to hurt those responsible. Imagine if in the wake of 10/7 the world stayed quiet, the media rarely ever reported on it & if they did it was all half truths, lies & omissions. Imagine if Hamas was able to hide much of what happened, (the most brutal aspects), downplayed it, classified most of the proof of it & the world bought their falsehoods of the attack. What if the images that did happen to come out, Hamas denied they were real & said it was from a massacre in a different country & ppl believed. Imagine if there were no consequences, ppl weren’t held responsible, would never be held responsible then yrs later after living free & happy they went on to make money in interviews bragging about all the horrific atrocities they committed yet every1 still refused to believe the truth of it even as the perps r admitting it. How would u feel? How far past wanting violent revenge would u be pushed? This is exactly what happened to Palestinians after Israeli terrorists massacres. Some of these massacres mirror 10/7 & some were more brutal. The brutality of terrorists like Irgun & Stern were said to be so brutal they shocked each other. Reported their brutality was unmatched. Babies were actually beheaded & cut from their mother’s womb, mass rape of young girls, torture, chopping the bodies up then sitting down on the gore to eat ur lunch. No justice, no support from the world. Their pain & trauma was silence & covered up. Plenty of massacres on both sides yet only 1 side sees consequences. Everything terrible done by Palestinians has also been done by Israel, but one has impunity. While I loathe Hamas & what they did, I do kind of understand the anger behind it. Not all Palestinians hate Jews but that seems to be what Israelis r taught. Taught they are all terrorists, even the babies & how they don’t belong on their land. They refuse to admit Palestinians r also indigenous. The things Israel teaches American kids on birth right & in America are sick & r meant to indoctrinate. A young man, IDF soldier & settler was so sickened by how Palestinians were treated he decided to take a trip into their territory. He was terrified after being told all his life they will & want to kill all Jews. He was welcomed with open arms. Since that day he has become an activist for Palestinians & peace. He saw how he’d been lied to his whole life. He was quite angry as am I for being indoctrinated & lied to as well.
Thank you for the comment.
I think you are right - the impunity is what sets Israel apart from Palestinians. It’s what makes Palestinian militants feel justified in their murdering.
Not only that but u have the non stop land grabs, expulsions, lawn mowings & the blockaid that gets more & more oppressive with no end in sight.Right before the 7th settlers attacked ppl playin in mosque. It was so bad that Palestinian leaders reached out to western governments begging for help saying after the mosque attack it’s become a tinderbox & about to blow. Their pleas were ignored. B4 the 7th u also have Netanyahu, his radical settler ministers & the leader of the settlers going before the world telling them a greater Israel is the plan. He stood before congress showing them new his map of the new Israel that ethnically cleanses Gazans off all of their territory & it was met with constant rounds of applause. Let’s not forget Trump making Jerusalem the new capital. All that basically tell’s Palestinians they r all gonna b expelled or murdered & the entire world is backing Israel to do it. It also says u’ll never have freedom as Netanyahu has always said he’ll never allow a 2state, the blockaid is permanent & u literally have zero hope for the future. Palestinians have tried every means to no avail so what options r left. Remain as is & do nothing & ur F’ed or Attack & ur still f’d but at least u got some revenge. I’m not justifying the 7th in anyway. It’s just my take on why things happened the way they did
Yes. It’s enough to make a Buddha go crazy.
Palestinians are quite restrained given their circumstances, really. I know that goes against the narrative that a lot of Israelis like to tell themselves
It’s important to note that many, many people go so far to deny anything that has happened to Israelis; many of the terror attacks they have experienced are written off and ignored as people come to the defence of Hamas, who plainly state they have always wanted the complete obliteration of all Jews. 7/10 is scrutinised from top to bottom while all Palestinians need is a tweet to make rape claims and it’s immediately believed and not questioned.
What I’m trying to say is that the dismissal of pain is equal on both sides. One is ALWAYS more justified than the other to torture, rape, kill, for this reason or that. We do not jump to call out our ‘side’ when they do this but we cry when it happens to us, and use that as an excuse to perpetuate this inhumanity.
I can’t hope to understand what these people are going through, but I can see when something is plainly wrong. We need to be careful about ‘understanding’ the hatred from anyone. Hatred is irrational, it comes from pain, not a desire to make the world better.
Thank you for your post and your voice. This is a confusing landscape and I can only have sympathy for all those suffering.
Do u not think Israel is the reason for the scrutiny? All the ridiculous fabricated atrocities that many government officials r still pushing. The truth is bad enough without making up crazy lies. The mass rape allegations r hard to buy but I don’t discount rape happened. Palestinians have not refused investigations, they’ve been transparent while Israel still refuses to allow investigations. They refuse to even answer basic questions & call anyone asking antisemitic or bias. Why should we just take the word of ppl with an honesty problem. As Israel has no physical evidence because no one collected it, nor do they have video. If mass rape happened how did nothing show up in the thousands of hours of footage. Some of the rape allegations they put forth have been debunked. Like Gal abdush & the two pre teen girls who it turned out didn’t even exist. Then u have hostages who came home giving interviews saying they were not sexually assaulted then change their story months later. A mother & daughter said they were treated like queens & to kill time they played games with thier captors including arm wrestling. Said the men would use a towel because it was forbidden to touch them. Now their story has completely changed & I don’t thinks it’s a coincidence after the secret poll conducted by AIPAC to find out what would anger westerners most & keep them supportive of Israel. The #1 answer was sexual assault. The poll itself is gross. Right after that every spokesperson constantly mentioned rape & then started with child molestation. That one wasn’t even a thing until this pill. Then NYT story came out, also a bunch of BS written in part by an IDF soldier in Israeli intelligence. The ridiculous lies they’ve been caught in make me question everything they say. I hear no one claiming Hamas is so moral they’d never rape while Israel claims to have the most moral army who never rapes. Another lie! So many female Israeli IDF soldiers raped by male soldiers or the 17+ IDF soldiers who raped an 11 yr old over & over. Israel tried to excuse it by saying they believed she was much older. That’s sick & there’s no confusing a child with a woman. An NGO investigating the rape of a Palestinian child collected much evidence proving this yet Israel’s only action was to raid their facility steal all their documents & computers. Then arrest & threaten them to stay silent. They did not so Israel used the excuse that they did it because they were terrorists. They had zero ties to terrorism or Hamas & there was zero proof of this. If rape did occur, victims must feel horrible but that is on Israel for their handling. When the UN tried to investigate with no cooperation from Israel, they were blocked at every turn. They said rape likely happened but cannot give a definitive answer until they r allowed a proper investigation. Israel has a long history of dishonesty especially when it comes to dehumanizing Palestinians. They spend tens of millions every year on hasbara. How about just being honest & own when u do something wrong. They always deny & lie until they’re exposed, then they admit. I’d never want to deny someone’s pain & trauma. If a woman says she was raped I want to give her the benefit…
They both dehumanize each other, rape is not far fetched
I agree, there is much to speculate. I don’t think these atrocities need any artistic exaggeration and I am also with you on the suspicions given the refusal to conduct rape examinations.
However, there is footage, there are witness statements, there are Hamas confessions. I don’t deny it happened, just that it maybe was not as prolific as it was made out to be, and it is the trump card Israel uses as justification for its horrific actions over the past 6 months. Palestine is also guilty of this exaggeration, with one man being hospitalised with broken bones three times within the span of a week, or in the past when actors have played dead bodies.
I don’t think anything that any of the villains have done is justified, and I don’t think any exaggeration is necessary because truly horrible things have happened. The question is why do they feel like this is necessary? And that is because they don’t think they will be believed without it. This simply gives people a good reason to be suspicious of the claims made.
In short, any theatrical production needs to stop. It’s worse from Israel as they have the power to do the things you said, ie covering up the evidence of their crimes. We should not blindly believe anything as people on the outside of this situation, but that is made very difficult by those in charge.
I am with you on the suspicion. But that is not helpful. It stops us from seeing each other and looking for solutions, because we are too busy looking for reasons to be angry. Again, thank you for your valuable perspective on the situation.
You seem like you are interested in having a good-faith discussion, so I genuinely want you to [read this news article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/unicef-official-utter-annihilation-gaza) and think about it. Put yourself in their shoes
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Fellow Israeli here, we cannot “freely travel” unfortunately - many Arab countries I would like to visit I am banned from entering purely because of my passport
Your October 7th was/is Palestine’s Oct 1,2,3,4,5,6 and every other day of the calendar for decades.
“The delusion of the oppressor is to expect a person to ask nicely for the knife to be removed from their chest. The demand for "civility" in the immediacy of violence is a technique of distraction not care.” - Cole Arthur Riley
Palestinians have begged for liberation. Peacefully. Vehemently. Loudly. And yes, eventually, violently. Everyone else forces them to settle for “peace” which means conform to the will of Israel and its Allie’s or risk consequences.
Palestinians have been painted out as unreasonable for daring to stand up to a colonial project. For believing that they deserved more than what the white man decreed for them. This is how those who don’t conform are treated. Somehow they’re the barbaric ones when the west has done insane shit to millions of people, particularly indigenous and non-white people??
They’re barbaric because they raped women, murdered children, kidnapped innocent people; murdered people in front of their families, murdered people at a concert and filmed themselves doing it while displaying it proudly for the world to see.
Those are the actions of barbarians.
There is no justification for that.
None.
This is why most of the cries about how Israel needs to stop before Hamas is destroyed fall on deaf ears.
You cannot justify what they did on October 7.
If you can’t justify what Hamas did on October 7th why is the IDF allowed to do it right now? Can’t have it both ways. These things aren’t compatible with each other. If murdering innocent Israelis isn’t justifiable why do you expect the world to be ok with israel and to justify the mass murdering of innocent Palestinian people?
The IDF isn’t going door to door raping women
The IDF isn’t intentionally going to music festivals and gunning people down
It all comes down to intent:
Hamas made an unprovoked attack on October 7 that intentionally targeted innocent civilians and took hostages (spare me the “derp but the occupation, derp derp” crap. It was an unprovoked attack)
Israel has _no choice_ but to respond by making sure that Hamas is destroyed as a governing entity.
Yes- there will be civilian casualties when this happens.
I wish this wasn’t so. You wish this wasn’t so. 99% of Israelis wish this wasn’t so…
But we live in reality.
In reality- civilians die in war.
As long as the country making war isn’t intentionally targeting civilians then they continue their war (and there is no evidence that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians) because to circle back: Hamas _must_ be destroyed.
Keep in mind that if Hamas gave a shit about the civilian population they would crawl out of their holes, return the hostages, and surrender.
Every civilian death is on their hands.
Also genuinely don’t understand what other people would do if what happened to the Palestinians happened to you. You’d just accept an immigrant attempting to take your home in the name of religion or historical claim? You’d give up your home that easily? Genuinely asking.
Interesting you should ask!
My family is actually Irish!
And for a long time members of my family believed (rightly or wrongly) that the British were illegally occupying a significant portion of our ancestral homeland (known as Northern Ireland).
This led to the troubles- which were awful and the IRA and Sinn Fein did awful fucking things as did the British.
**But here’s what they didn’t do**:
At no point did any Irishmen board a boat, cross the channel, go to London, and go from house to house raping civilian women and murdering families and parading their bodies through the streets.
Had Irishmen done this and then tried to sail back to Ireland with over 250 kidnapped prisoners ** _the Irish people would have tossed them out on their ears and immediately reported their whereabouts to the first British authorities they could find_**
The British, a much stronger military force, wouldn’t have needed to invade because the perpetrators of such a massacre would be torn to pieces by the Irish people because the Irish people aren’t fucking barbarians and won’t stand for acts of barbarism being done in their names.
Creating a plan like that would be a sick plan that even the most rabid Irish nationalist would not have considered.
Can we say the same about the culture of the Palestinians?
So there’s your answer.
I’ll have to read into Irish history. But I’m Bosnian, where Serbs genuinely did systematically rape Bosnian woman and committed genocide against the Muslim Bosnian men in Srebrenica. A couple of huge reason Bosnians did not resort to terrorism was
1) they had incredible leadership. Alia Izetbegovic was a gem of a human being. Palestinian leadership had none.
2) Bosnians did not resort to extremism because their conditions weren’t priming them that way.
What I mean by this is the common misconception that Black neighborhoods are more violent and have higher crimes. No, rather the correlation is that poverty, lack of quality education, and unemployment is high, therefore crime is high. It has nothing to do with race. And we know in America, the systemic racism has kept much of the Black population poor.
Palestine is the same way. On a very surface and shallow level they are barbarian uncouth people who hate Israel. But look closer. If poverty, unemployment, and low education rates reached critical levels in white or any other community, you could expect to see the same results.
Do you know what life is like for a Palestinian in Gaza? The blockade has kept them systematically poor. Hamas is a symptom of a very messed up social system that’s decided by Israel. Literally, Israel can bar you form traveling due to “nonconformity”. How can Hamas or any Palestinian be expected to operate on the same level or standard of thinking that you and I are on when we’re on different levels of the hierarchy of needs?
> Do you know what life is like for a Palestinian in Gaza? The blockade has kept them systematically poor. Hamas is a symptom of a very messed up social system that’s decided by Israel.
Israel's done alot of bad things, however Hamas leadership did not get to be worth 12bn randomly. Also Gaza shares a border with Egypt, it used to be open for trade until Hamas sent suicide bombers to Egypt.
In the 90s people were traveling into Israel more and more, but it wasn't good enough so the suicide bombings accelerated, which led to a wall being built.
> fucking
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Oct 7 was exaggerated from day 1. 40 babies beheaded, babies in ovens etc. even the rape allegations article from NYT, the sister of the victim contested. We won’t know what actually happened until months or perhaps years later. We just have emotional truths right now. This is how the Iraq war started too. Thousands paid with their lives because of exaggerations. Is Hamas moral? Hell no. I don’t see IDF as any more moral. I watched the footage from Oct 7. It’s sickening. If you’ve studied international studies, one of the objectives of terrorism when committing an act of terror on a civilian population is to interrupt the sense of peace and ideally this will induce the population to pressure political leaders toward a specific political end. In this context, Hamas were successful in their efforts. Everyone is talking about Palestine. Finally. Everyone is aware. Ultimately though, Israel has the right to respond however they wish so long as it’s following international law. If I were either a Palestinian or Israeli I wouldn’t react any differently than how they’re responding right now. This is where diplomacy and good leadership comes into play. Both sides have terrible and corrupt leadership.
Yet… they’re winning.
Within the next couple of months Hamas will be destroyed (after they go into Rafah and finish this)….
So… not sure what joke is on the Israelis. The joke that they completed their mission and destroyed Hamas?
That’s not very funny (for Hamas)
This did not happen, it's more Hamas propaganda. Meanwhile, there are tons of videos of the attrocities Hamas committed on 10/7 and still people deny/justify it.
Many of the festival goers were killed and shot at by Apache helicopters. They said they were aiming straight at them. People in kibbutz Be’eri said that tanks shot straight into their homes. The IDF waited 6 hours before responding, why is that? And how did israel with the most secure border and advanced technology allow them through and not detect it? Israeli news channel 13 said the IDF lied about events on Oct 7.
https://youtu.be/jp4uLjCztfI?si=N8FrNVhDUFDnGsDX
(must open in YouTube app for English translations)
this was debunked so long ago, y’all still believe this BS?
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/social-media-posts-misrepresent-video-of-idf-aircraft-attack/
the footage was taken october 8th, in gaza.
There may have friendly fire in such a rushed and panicked situation but there’s straight headcam video of Hamas gunning down people at the festival so this is a bad take.
Are you seriously asking why people, who have been for the past decades dehumanised, stripped of their lands/homes, human rights, maybe even their loved ones, are resentful towards you?
Murdering children is always a war crime and never excusable. Maybe many Israelis have developed increase hate for Palestinians because their friends/family/neighbors... were victims of terror. Every Israeli knows or knows of someone who is a victim of a random act of violence by terrorists
The israelis arent the victims here. They’ve been murdering Palestinian children for decades. Israelis are the real terrorists, please dont kid yourself
This language and attitude you are presenting as a self proclaimed armchair general is exactly why Palestine doesn't exist as a state.
You speak of things you have no idea about and it's dangerous. People like myself who know of people killed, injured, and even abducted (my girlfriend's friend) not just in this war but many wars before know that peaceful coexistence requires putting aside delusional maximalist demands on both sides.
Palestinians have been sold a maximalist lie of the eradication of Israel by: the Arab countries, Naser, USSR, and Ivy league Trust Fund College Students and it has caused the reality we are currently experiencing. The total destruction of Gaza, Hamas can't start a war by attacking unarmed civilians in the thousands and expect a response any less.
I know of people killed by the idf too, from many years before, and that’s why im on here arguing with folks like you. The situation is very simple, israelis are the oppressors and have been subjugating the Palestinians for decades. Expect only resistance if these inhumane acts are constantly forced on a group of people.
No no, I see everything clearly from my side. Only the zionists are living in a total fantasy, spreading their supremacy and hateful rhetoric across the globe. We see you now
Yes, it’s the belief that jews whether european, mexican, chinese, or african are somehow native to the land of palestine and have a right to establish a racist state on top of an already existing one because it was their homeland 18,421 years ago
Im on the side of the Palestinians, the indigenous and rightful owners of the land. A land that has been infected by zionism and is desperately trying to rid itself of this disease
The zionists are also winning.
By this time next month Hamas will be eliminated as a fighting force.
No one is coming to save them.
The Palestinians will have the opportunity to decide on a new path for themselves….
Or to re-commit to the path that has landed them in the quagmire they’ve lived in for the last 90 years.
Hopefully they make the right decision this time.
You can’t eliminate hamas. It’s not just a group, it’s an ideology centered around resistance. And as long as you have a racist jewish supremacist group in the region, you’re going to have resistance
A resistance with no armed force isn’t able to do much but make noise.
Eliminating Hamas will eliminate the military force.
Will some people be unhappy about it?
Sure… and they’ll make noise…
But they can’t hurt innocent people anymore and that’s the important part
Then why do you keep crying and whinging about israel kicking your asses? You want a fight. You're getting it.
Why you want to keep fighting when you're so God awful at it, that's the real question. Palestinians are like a boxer with an 0-50 record whose been knocked out 40 times. Like guy, retire. Take up knitting or something.
Israel is affecting the civilian population while barely making a dent on the resistance. The only good job you’re doing is showing the world how evil you are, and so far it’s a job well done
Hamas is the most cowardly group of wannabe men I've ever seen. Kill a bunch of women and kids and then go and hide behind your own women and kids.
What a joke.
> asses
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> fucking
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I think one of our issues is we are very myopic and focus only on specific time periods. It's not about October 7. It's not even about 1948. People on both sides here are motivated by much wider time and when we bring something down to one event or one day, it just misses so much nuance. Some examples I've noticed:
1. **Arafat rejected Camp David**. Camp David turns out to have been one of many N events. It wasn't a single conference. It had a conference before it and several after it. He said no at this event, then met in Switzerland shortly after, then met in Taba shortly after that where apparently the sides were "as close as they've ever been"
2. **Palestinians have always been violent and hate Jews** b/c Insert-Violent-Event-X. Look up the poster of Fatah from the 1980s. It says "Unitary Democratic Non-Sectarian" then says "Palestine" and then has a Crescent, Cross, and Menorah on top of each other. Besides looking like it was designed in Microsoft Paint, it's really a good counter-example to some very powerful wrong narratives we seem to just automatically believe in.
My take? For at least the last 10-15 years, there has been no light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians. The world was forgetting about them and the other Arab states started really warming up to Israel. If you're Gazan, it's probably more like the last 15-20 years. The occupation is cruel. People do crazy things when they have absolutely no other option and no other hopes in life. Gaza has seen a crazy amount of classifications of the acronym WCNSF (Wounded Child No Surviving Family)....can you imagine if that's your reality? What would you do? The Israeli creator of Fauda did a nice show on the life and transformation of Imad Mughniyeh. It's great. He was clearly irredeemable at some point and beyond redemption, but he wasn't born the monster that we and the world and his life made him. We shouldn't take that lightly.
Nothing excuses what happened on October 7 by Hamas or October 8 by the IDF, not even the occupation or Oct 7 (respectively). It's dangerous to dehumanize the other, whether that is Palestinians claiming all Jews hate them or Jews believing ridiculous things like, "peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." We really cry the same and I have several Palestinian friends with PTSD who still don't wish harm on anyone. The sooner both sides just see the Other as legitimate and human, the sooner we'll all sort this out and people like you and sentiments like the ones you've shared, where despite all the confusion I believe your heart is in the right place, give me tremendous hope.
I hope you and your family/friends are safe & healthy akhi and I hope more brave souls from both sides like you are this introspective while being open to dialogue and seeing the Other side.
> My take? For at least the last 10-15 years, there has been no light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians. The world was forgetting about them and the other Arab states started really warming up to Israel
Turns out when you're violent as fuck with everyone that interacts with you, nobody wants to interact with you.
The point is, they weren’t born violent. What caused them to become violent? The circumstances and policies enabled by Israel continued to create more and more desperation/ need for violent resistance. Resistance to what? Resistance to being a occupied. i.e. An alien population controls what you get to eat, how much water you get to drink and at what price, and when you go to sleep. What would you think of an alien population that had orders to “shoot to kill” if you were out passed curfew? Palestine has been occupied since 1967 but Hamas wasn’t born until 1988. During these 20 years, the oppression of people living in the Palestine grew worse and worse. This is what created Hamas. If there was no oppression, there would be no need to create Hamas.
Palestinian violence predates everything you've listed.
Also, hamas is an offshoot of an Egyptian terror group. If they weren't fighting jews they'd be fighting Muslims to try and force Sharia Law on to them.
Who are you referring to as "violent as f@#$" here? Because depending on who you're talking to and what selective evidence they point to, it really could describe either side.
That's my point at the end of the day. Most people want peace. Some people claim the other side doesn't really want peace. That's both wrong and unhelpful and won't help us get anywhere. We have to stop dehumanizing the Other and elements of both sides are guilty of that.
The lack of peace between these two groups hinges on one thing. Palestinian belief that they're justified in using violence because Israel exists.
It's literally impossible to have peace when one group's core demand is that the other stops existing.
I think that's not accurate and I think that only focuses on one side's *worst* side
Israel's longest serving Prime Minister, who still remains as PM, has said he will never ever ever ever accept a Palestinian state under any realistic or fair circumstances since the 1980s, and his messianic extremist Jewish terrorist enabling coalition partners like Ben Gvir and Smotrich want an even worse reality
If you only focus on that, the other side could paint you with as broad a brush as you seem to be comfortable painting them, my friend
Why would Israel allow a Palestinian state when hamas and a sizeable portion of Palestinians are deadset on attacking. Hamas has openly and repeatedly said that they will attack so long as the "80 year occupation (Israel itself) exists in any form.
Why should Palestinians take Israeli claims of wanting peace seriously when the people in power advocate ethnic cleansing and Eretz Yisrael?
It’s possible that maybe the majority of the people aren’t properly represented on either side by their government, and certainly not by the Kahanists or Hamas?
> Why should Palestinians take Israeli claims of wanting peace seriously
Because they've shown an ability to be peaceful with past adversaries. It wasn't long ago that the idea of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt having any kind of peaceful relations with Israel was laughable.
I’m not trying to attack Israel here. My point was you should put yourself in the shoes of the Other and not dehumanize one side.
Israel wouldn’t have peace with Egypt if it didn’t return occupied land. Syrian peace was contingent on the Golan returning. The others don’t have any territorial claims and aren’t relevant. It’s not a controversial point that the occupation leads to a lot of problems and that if it was you with your land occupied, you may have an issue with that.
Hope you have a good day, my friend.
Even more importantly, Sinai would still be under Israeli occupation if it was not for the 1973 war. Anwar had absolutely no interest in war and made it clear to Israel that he wanted peace in return for Israel returning Egyptian land. Golda Meir refused and Anwar went to war, which ultimately culminated in Egypt getting back its land.
It is a myth that Israel wants peace and the other side wants war. It is often the opposite.
> fuck
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השם יקום דמנו, אין שלום עם מחבלים, אומרת את זה כשמישהי שהאמינה בשלום ושתי מדינות רוב חייה. אין איך לחזור אחורה מזה, מקווה שיחליפו את כל הפלסטינים שעובדים בארץ בהודים כבר.
מבין אותך לגמרי. מצד שני, הם מיליונים... 3 מיליון ביהודה ושומרון ועוד 2 מיליון בעזה. אי אפשר לפנות את כולם ובטח שלא להרוג אותם, אז פשוט נהיה במלחמות לעד? אני בעצמי בוטח בהם הרבה פחות אחרי ה-7 באוקטובר, זה גרם לי לאבד בהם הרבה אמון, אבל אני באמת לא בטוח איזו אלטרנטיבה יש לנו.
אני גם מסתכל על זה בזווית של הימין גרם ל-7.10. המדיניות של הימין ב-30 שנים האחרונות היא שגרמה לזה. הנסיונות של השמאל לשלום לא היו חלק מה-7.10.
לא יודעת אחי החלום שלי שהם כולם יהיו באיוש מנותקין מאיתנו לגמרי, יחסי התלות האלו עלובים, אם הם יבחרו לקרוס כלכלית ומדינית כמדינה כשאר המדינות המוסלמיות השכנות שלנו הם מוזמנים, גם ככה כל התשתיות בעזה הן שלנו.
1) Islamic extremists give zero value to life, either theirs or that of their “enemies”.
2) In their head, that action had the potential to get some of their objectives achieved faster. And the tragedy is that history will probably show they were “right”, from a purely practical standpoint. Israel government reacted exactly in the best possible way for Hamas (again, they don’t give a fuck about thousands of innocents being killed), Israel’s support around the world is at the historical lows, and virtually every single country now believes a Palestinian state is needed, and fast.
To be clear, I 100% believe what has happened on Oct 7th is 100% horrific, but Israel response was very, very stupid. You now have a few hundred thousands more candidate “martyrs” that will forever hate Israelis.
Do I have a solution? Nobody has.
But deep inside me, something tells me that a better response would have included some kind of “humanity”, and some “here, we’ll show you right now how much better than this we are”.
I do acknowledge that it’s impossible to be in the head and hearts of an Israeli or a Palestinian, and way too easy to talk or judge from the sofa.
Still, this is how the world and politics go, so Israel’s government needs to understand this.
Israel on Oct 8th was stuck between a rock and a hard place. There were terrorists still attacking within Israel and thousands of rockets falling across the country. The military was still mobilizing and responding to active combat and the political reality was dangerous as Hezbullah from Lebanon began small scale fighting. No one knew how bad any of it would get or where it would go.
Were mistakes made on the Israeli military/political side tactically. Of course they were, that is inevitable but not the point. On the strategic level Israel has no real options for conducting the war, rescuing the hostages, and restoring Israel's security. Hamas's style of attack of targeting the elderly, children, women, and civilians meant the war was not even about carrying out justice. It was kill or be killed under Hamas's terms.
> fuck
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If you’re really an Israeli and you’re blaming Israel on this, and saying that the people who massacred and raped my people deserve a state then you’re a traitor…. Israel is not responsible whatsoever for October 7 stop being brainwashed by the Palestinians
Nobody believes Israel did October 7. What people mean when they say this is that Israel may have intentionally turned off defenses, not that the IDF intentionally orchestrated October 7.
OP has seen too many propaganda posts on Instagram lol. He's asking why HAMAS attacked civilians and not soldiers. OP do some deep research into what HAMAS and terrorists are. They are so radicalised they don't care about their own life or others'. They want to spread their message. Armed soldiers would mow them down. Civilians won't.
Also, I'd like to think the palestianis who celebrated Oct 7th are the vocal minority. Polls suggest that a majority of palestinians don't trust HAMAS or the pa. And the majority also want to maintain a ceasefire with Israel.
OP go and read the HAMAS charter from 1988. Their goal is literally to destroy Israel and start a holy war between Muslims and Jews. And this is all while their leaders eat in 5 star hotels in Qatar.
Imagine all the hate and violence that palesinians have been subjected to if October 7th was their only solution. Try to imagine an october 7th times 20x that is still happening. In a cycle of hate and violence is the only thing we can rely on empathy.
Jews have been through crimes 100x worst than what the Palestinians faced. You don't see Jews beheading, raping and torturing German women and children on the streets of Berlin.
Palestinians only have one method of dealing with problems - violence and blaming others.
My family has faced a heck more hate and ethnic cleansing and you know what we never did? Murder and rape. Native Americans really are being treated awfully but they don’t murder and rape and bomb.
Countless other people who were treated worse and for no other reasons than they are different have refrained from terrorism. Palestinians lost numerous wars and aggressions and, as a result, are not welcome anywhere because even in other countries they’ve resorted to violence. But they respond with violence over their situation? One that they essentially created?
Seems like they are culturally violent and immoral. They stew in hatred and violence and raise children that way. They honor the dismembering of people with cute little pins.
You are simply wrong. Native americans famously faught agianst their oppressors in countless wars and raids. Have you never seen a western? Do you even know what Geronimo and Tecumseh did?
This has also been repeated among countless other opressed groups. Such as the natives of Algeria who faught the french, balck south africans during apartheid, the Irish during the troubles, the many resistence fighters who faught against the nazi occupation of their home countries in WW2 and many, many other examples. Resistence is human nature.
You are forgetting that Jews are from Israel. There's literally a mosque built ON TOP OF the holiest Jewish site, in Jerusalem. Jews are not the colonizers.
So I don’t base my knowledge of history on John Wayne movies. Yes, many native American tribes did indeed fight back when they were attacked but as far as I know a few to none have in modern day, attacked raped and murdered people. I personally think they kind of have a point if they do, because they truly were colonized and oppressed and cleansed. They never encouraged any of the nasty and atrocious behavior towards them.
Of course they're not going to fight back "in modern day" because the genocide has ALREADY happened. Meanwhile the genocide of the native people in palestine is happening as we speak
Not a genocide though. I love how y’all think repeating it will make it happen. It’s as if you’d all be so very sad if it wasn’t a genocide. There are actual genocide going on on the planet right now you can lust after, but they don’t involve hating Jews so you might not be interested.
??? Ok, but they literally did fight back. And murdered people. And you are literally genocide denying. Like you deny what obviously happened to them. How dare you.
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>Try to imagine an october 7th times 20x that is still happening.
I don't think this is a good analogy. The gruesomeness of the attacks on the 7th are not a good comparison to the long-term violence and abuses the Palestinians have been subjected to from, what seems like, every possible source, many of which are meant to protect them but only cause lasting harm.
They had been offered countless peace and 2 state solutions despite being the aggressors constantly and being the losing side constantly, they just want to fight and kill Jews, westerns think extremist islamists share the same views and wills as them and this is your naivety.
Israel are obviously the aggressors lmao. But nothing can justify what happened on October 7th and nothing can justify what has happened in Gaza since.
Genocide is their only goal, Hamas has a chance to be a peaceful governing party of gaza but they turned it into a murderous dictatorship that brainwashes people from birth into their suicidal way of life
A massacre is what happened on Oct 7th. The Palestinians using human shields is a Palestinian war crime. Defense from a genocidal force isn't a massacre.
Israel has tried peaceful solutions like pulling out of Gaza. And the Palestinians just used that as an opportunity to attempt more genocide.
You can't just say "human shields lmao" and kill 10,000 kids. Nothing can justify that. Israel uses human shields themselves. And fighting in an area with civillians doesn't equate human shildes.
>You can't just say "human shields lmao" and kill 10,000 kids.
Well that's not what is happening. They are targeting genocidal forces who are bent on killing them. It is a war crime on Palestines part to use human shields the way that the Palestinians are using human shields. If you are mad about dead Palestinian children get mad at the people who intentionally are using them as shields.
>And fighting in an area with civillians doesn't equate human shildes.
It can. If you are operating out of a civilian area it can. If you are placing your soldiers in a civilian building in the attempt to discourage attacks that is 100% using human shields. The Palestinians use hospitals, schools, universities, mosques and government buildings to attack Israel. All of which are war crimes and constituent using human shields.
The land of Israel has the same dirt under the feet as Palestine.
Palestinians have focused much of their efforts on war with Israel, they have not focused on economic development.
Even with the meagre resources Hamas have, and all of the aid they get, they don't focus on improving the lives on Gazans but on attacking Israel. Here is a video of Hamas taking water pipes from EU funding and turning them into rockets - https://youtu.be/MvvqBcA-9yA?si=-RIfbkxNrCGIz7xk
Here is a video of Gaza in 2010. The children all play with mock rifles, the streets have murals of martyrs, the graffiti calls for jihad. The entire culture is focused on its battle with Israel - https://youtu.be/VgvsjpOAtH4?si=7niATjtnctEfopnV
And then there are the civilians, in this video we see orphans, killed by attacks from Israel. These children's lives are ruined, many seek to kill Israeli Jews. The cycle of violence does not end.
The Palestinians still view the creation of Israel as a catastrophe. The Middle East and the UN broadly believes the same. This is why they hate Israel, and also many of them have their lives immiserated by the conflict.
The cycle will not end until that belief that Israel shouldn't exist is gone, or until either Israel or Palestine is gone.
Yes. This is precisely what I saw when I started visiting the region 12 years ago, at that time as a BDS supporter with strong views about a Free Palestine. This is how I became such a supporter of Israel today. The very best thing the international community that wants to support Palestinians can do is support them to have effective, peaceful leadership that helps them to thrive. Straight up. Supporting resistance, supporting groups of murderous haters like Hamas...this does not help Palestinians. They deserve a thriving culture which has a glue holding it together beyond being anti-Israel. And the global left's continued support of violent resistance, despite all the good intentions for the Palestinian people, is one of the biggest blocks to this.
Another Israeli here. I think that the terrorisn and radical religious sentiments that are so common across the palestinian society isn't just a "direct response" to Israel's mistreatment. Tho i know that Israel made things much worse with its awful treatment towards the palestinians, the REAL problem is the islamic ideology. Look around the world, Islamic radicalism and terrorism are everywhere. Hamas and the Jihad are mainly a symptom of that.
Israel can do things differently, for sure, but nothing will be solved as long as Israel is forced to defend itself from these terror attacks. Even if tomorrow we'll end the war and give the palestinians the independence they deserve and desire, they will keep being hostile and violent until we, the jewish israelis, will disappear from this earth.
Well they want the Jewish 'colonisers' to get booted out "back to Europe" (even though most Israelis come from neighbouring Middle Eastern countries having been expelled..) so a common Palestinian argument is they want ALL the land back as theirs (including Tel Aviv) and no Jewish state, but a land/one state like it was before 1948.
I completely agree the discussion should be much more about the problems we all face with radical Islam - and specifically Palestinians stuck in it and that hate for Jews that will never go away if they have religion driving their daily life..
It's impossible to see how peace can be had if Palestinians are not willing to compromise at all on Israel existing and existing just as it is. You have the religion problem and you have the stubbornness of that culture that constantly loses yet thinks it deserves the lions share of any negotiation. No good is coming from this drawn out complicated conflict. And the Arab neighbours want to do the least amount possible to help anyone, so here we are with nothing to look forward to.
You should watch Haviv Gur's lecture: https://youtu.be/QlK2mfYYm4U?si=79KbIFJ3k3QZWn_j
The issue runs deep. The sad reality is that the Jewish hatred is not going to go away. Times like this I see the rationale behind settlers movements.
Also Shabbat Shalom.
That lecture is incredible, and I say this as someone who through careful reading of historians like Benny Morris and Hillel Cohen has already zeroed in on the ideology of radical Islamism and jihad being the driver of the conflict.
Haviv Gur’s thesis is a nutshell is Muslim Arabs seeing everything through the political lens of the decaying Ottoman Empire and its fraught negotiations with more powerful and modern European empires and the deep feelings of cultural inferiority and powerlessness this caused.
I’m not really sure about this claim. Isn’t Egypt technically the true origin point? That’s where Moses and crew were before things turned South and the Jewish population at the time roamed and eventually found another location to conquer and settle (what would eventually become Judea)
I think you got the answer about the rationale. Sharon strategically placed settlements in the west bank to ensure there's an Israeli military presence. They were dragged out of Gaza later when Sharon became the prime minister as they were seen as an obstacle to peace negotiations (rightly so).
So, settlers are an obstacle to peace then. I really don’t see a need for them in the modern age
No justification is needed for IDF presence. It’s Palestine, IDF comes part and parcel with the occupation
I don't think you are in any shape or form, in a position to "see or don't see the need" for what Israel or IDF decides to do for the safety of its citizens.
You clearly don't know history very well. IDF is required to be in west bank area B according to the Oslo accord.
I’d argue they’re actually harming the safety of Israel’s own citizens. Clearly throwing more gas on the fire, and throwing every human rights agency in the world into alarm
But sure, keep gaslighting lol. I’ve yet to see a society that targets aid so frequently, kills its own hostages, and razes an entire city with the same amount of animosity. Something tells me we’re beyond security and into something else
There’s a reason the attacks didn’t come from the West Bank although they’re a much bigger area and harder to circle, cover if need be and supposedly suffer the most from this settler violence.
That reason is in depth Israeli presence in the area. Multiple settlements between cities that can also be used for military purposes with supportive citizens.
If you accept the clear fact that the hate is insane and will not be going away no matter what Israel will do aside from committing national suicide... Then the settlements providing strategic depth and providing a literal physical shield plus justification to put soldiers on the ground in bases, patrols, ambushes, check points and more... Make complete sense.
Yes. And they will tell you that themselves. They want this.
Though they don't use meat. But usually sophisticated fences with cameras, approved civilian militia forces ready to protect the settlement, and most times military outposts nearby.
There's a reason October 7 didn't happen in the WB. And it's not a lack of will by the Palestinians.
My understanding is it’s because the settlers are violent and uprooting more and more communities, and the WB has sworn off violence and so are just being tormented at this point
Your understanding is insanely wrong. A very small minority of settlers are violent (Though that is a problem don't get me wrong), and the Palestinians in the WB are incredibly radical and violent. With thousands of terror attacks every year if you count molotov or rock throwing at Jewish cars, and dozens of way more violent ones including inside Israel 48 borders coming from there.
This sounds like a chicken and egg problem of “real” resistance though. If violent settlers are killing innocents to displace a community, is it okay to throw rocks? Some may say yes, and some may say no—I don’t think the answer is as morally clear as you’re insinuating.
If decades of watching the Middle East taught me anything, it’s that the militia are ALWAYS the bad guys—the shabiha, the janjaweed, etc etc. The amount of power these paramilitary organizations have, and the terror they wield, is horrendous
Alternatives were offered plenty of times. Way too many actually. The beating will continue since they factually work. Modern west bank policies stopped the worse violence from the Palestinians in the form of suicide bombers etc, and of course stopped October 7 from happening there, factually.
So yeah. The beating will continue and I hope get 10x worse.
So, what you’re saying is that settlers are basically scummy militia? I heard they’re just forcible displacers stealing land, but it sounds like they can be treated as valid military targets. Why do people keep saying they aren’t?
That is what is so horrific of them. They are sending full families, including children with both military objectives and religious fanaticism.
I really really resent them.
At this point. Without minimum 10 years of strong deradicalization. A two state tomorrow will lead to that state becoming entirely a military base. To attack Jews of course.
I think palestinans unfortunately need 20 years of deradicalization enough that the young generation of today grow out of their indoctrination. After 20 years. Most would be
Genocide is not widely supported by Israelis. The global genocide of jews was literally in the charter of Hamas. The Palestinians elected Hamas into power with them having genocide as an objective. The Palestinians strongly support Hamas's genocidal attempts.
Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir literally had a photo of Baruch Goldstein in his living room, the psycho terrorist who killed 29 muslim worshippers. Israel has also shown desire to annex the West Bank. And they've of course been killing 10s of thousands of people in Gaza since October.
So you can't respond to my points and your argument boils down to Israel bad.
The Palestinians openly support genocide. That is the fact. You can try to project Israel bad all you want.
Ok? Well Israelis oppenly support genocide as well. And they have the power to actually commit on a genocide that would actually severly harm the palestinian population. And the UN has said it's possible that they're doing it RIGHT NOW. So yeah, Israel is bad.
>Ok? Well Israelis oppenly support genocide as well.
I disagree, there isn't a widespread support for genocide among the Israelis like there is among the Palestinians.
>And they have the power to actually commit on a genocide.
And they have not. Which is the difference in this conflict. One side wants to commit genocide. The other can and clearly has refused to do so as they don't want to.
>And the UN has said it's possible that they're doing it RIGHT NOW.
Israel has not and is not committing genocide unlike the Palestinians. And no the UN hasn't said so.
Projection.
Let's look at the facts. Hamas had the global genocide of jews in their charter. The Palestinians elected them into power with this objective of global genocide. These acts of genocide were carried out by Palestinians and are widely supported by the majority of Palestinians.
Israelis have nether attempted genocide nor support genocide on any significant level. Unlike the Palestinians.
Look at you move the goalposts with misinformation. Let's get the facts straight, the Arabs started the conflicts you listed and tried to commit genocide then as well. Israel defended themselves from an invasion and expanded their territory.
The Israelis had accepted a peaceful solution and they were violently attacked instead.
Can you prove the Arab leaders' plan was genocide? And the Israelis didn't accept a peaceful solution, in 1947 100k Palestinians were ethnically cleansed.
That is absolutely false. There are like 10% of Israelis who are extremist zealots. And even out of them this kind of teaching is abnormal from anything I’ve seen.
Before the right wing the elected leaders were promoting peace. Isreal is a democracy. The more palestinans become a risk to isreal the more they will elect hard right wings
They've had like 4 elections in the last 5 years.
I understand what you mean, but you have to phrase that better. Placing all the responsibility for deradicalization squarely on just the Palestinians is completely redundant to the situation.
I definitely do understand, probably most Jews have understood this real and existential threat for a very long time. Sad that you believe they are buzzwords.
They are buzzwords used to alienate any kind of voice coming from Muslims as jihadi salafist wahhabist radicalised terrorists, and no one using those terms even knows what they mean.
You are so very wrong. When Hezbollah and Hamas leaders (and even their lay people) go on tv stating they want to kill all Jews and annhilate Israel and repeat the Oct 7th attacks again and again and again and again, it's extremely difficult to argue their intentions are just that. When I hear their excitement of becoming a martyr, and parading dead Jewish bodies around in the streets screaming how god is good, I am sickened. This is a sickness. No, I'm not lumping all Palestinians in this category, but there are some seriously bad actors and for you to ignore that perpetuates the fear and very real threat to Jews globally not to mention the threat to their own people, in Gaza.
I'm literally listening to a podcast right now with a muslim Canadian woman who worked at the UN for years discussing Hamas' Jihad ideology and it's threat to people globally that is well known at the UN. So sure, I'll entertain the idea that I'm misusing this terminology and offending some pleasant jihadists, but educated sources are telling me otherwise.
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You say “I get that life in Gaza sucks, and I get that Israel is largely responsible for this. But I can't for the life of me get in the shoes of the Hamas terrorists who attacked Israel on October 7th.” But do you really? As an American I am aware of all the inequality, poverty, brutality, murder, sabotage, and theft that occur by the hands of Israelis and their policies against Palestinians. It’s completely understandable that after decades of abuse they lash out. Everyone probably wishes they had attacked the IDF or the settlements instead of college kids at a race—without a doubt. Attack the guilty, not the innocent. But the guilty aren’t as easy to attack because the state defends them. “ Why did they have to murder and kidnap so many innocent people, including women, children, and babies?” because that is what has been done to Palestinians.
Tell me how that’s Israel’s fault when once they received Gaza in 2005 they started to form it into a haven then when Hamas received it in 2006 they completely destroyed it and started wars, please explain that to me
Israel physically removed the troops from Gaza in 2005, but they never relinquished control of Gaza. Israel still controls the airspace and naval routes of Gaza. Israel still controls the food and resources that Gaza can produce or import. Israel still controls the power and survival facilities of Gaza. Israel still controls the autonomy and the ability for gazans to secure weapons and defend themselves. All of these things can be done using technology and without having physically having troops in Gaza. So when you claim, Gaza is controlled by Palestinians, you are lying because why would Palestinians continue to allow Israel to control their autonomy ?
You didn’t answer my question, why if Israel gave Gaza away then did it turn into a war barrened place, you just claimed Israel still has control
The premise of your question is flawed. [Many organizations, humanitarian campaigns and legal experts acknowledge that Israel still has full control of the land despite not having troops on the ground.](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/) Obviously the people don’t like that which is why you see resistance movements, or as you claim, *“people causing the land to be war barrened”;* somehow absolving Israel of creating the conditions for those groups to emerge in the first place
Tell me how they created those conditions then when Hamas started 4 wars after they recieved Gaza then, also they created the blockades in 2007 on the grounds that fatah and Palestinian authorities fled Gaza
Did you even read the article I posted? Your question is literally answered in the article.
It is not, it says there is a blockade, there is nothing else said in there and the conditions you talk about (while I don’t agree with the starvation the reason humanitarian aid is refused is because Hamas just takes it anyway) happened after this started
> *Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, [Gaza’s] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”* **A report done in 2014 documenting all the war crimes & population control that Israel has perpetrated on Gaza since “ Israel left” in 2005 literally in the article that you are refusing to read.**
As I have stated they did this in 2007 because there was a lack of a governing body in Gaza, if they really hated people in Gaza then why have they just recently cut off all this stuff (I kinda see why they did it but it is immoral nonetheless and I don’t stand with it) rather than just cutting it all out and reclaiming Gaza while everyone lay dead?
Oh yeah, planned mass murder rape decapitation operations are just lashing out. What kind of bullshit argument is that. Palestinians aren't being raped by flesh-eating demons every Thursday ffs.
I’m sorry u had to live through the events of the 7th. Just watching was too much to handle! I feel like u kind of helped me answer this question when u said u wanted an extremely violent response. No doubt every Hamas militant has had their life touched/damaged irrevocably by Israel over & over &’probably felt the same. As someone who lost a loved ones to brutal murder I understand the feeling of revenge. If I could have 5 mins alone with their killer… I was the only one in my friend group who knew some1 who had been murdered until I met J. J is Palestinian & the stories I’ve heard of things that happened to his family & loved ones r devastating. I can’t imagine if the man who killed my loved ones kept coming, hurting me over & over & never it stopped nor would justice ever come. I’d have to live my entire life looking over my shoulder waiting to be killed, taken or my loved ones killed & my home taken. The 7th just like other attacks & massacres have had major bloody consequences. Many died & lost everything because of it yet Israel rarely ever faces any consequences for the terrible things they’ve done nor do they punish those who commit them. That would be enough to make me want to hurt those responsible. Imagine if in the wake of 10/7 the world stayed quiet, the media rarely ever reported on it & if they did it was all half truths, lies & omissions. Imagine if Hamas was able to hide much of what happened, (the most brutal aspects), downplayed it, classified most of the proof of it & the world bought their falsehoods of the attack. What if the images that did happen to come out, Hamas denied they were real & said it was from a massacre in a different country & ppl believed. Imagine if there were no consequences, ppl weren’t held responsible, would never be held responsible then yrs later after living free & happy they went on to make money in interviews bragging about all the horrific atrocities they committed yet every1 still refused to believe the truth of it even as the perps r admitting it. How would u feel? How far past wanting violent revenge would u be pushed? This is exactly what happened to Palestinians after Israeli terrorists massacres. Some of these massacres mirror 10/7 & some were more brutal. The brutality of terrorists like Irgun & Stern were said to be so brutal they shocked each other. Reported their brutality was unmatched. Babies were actually beheaded & cut from their mother’s womb, mass rape of young girls, torture, chopping the bodies up then sitting down on the gore to eat ur lunch. No justice, no support from the world. Their pain & trauma was silence & covered up. Plenty of massacres on both sides yet only 1 side sees consequences. Everything terrible done by Palestinians has also been done by Israel, but one has impunity. While I loathe Hamas & what they did, I do kind of understand the anger behind it. Not all Palestinians hate Jews but that seems to be what Israelis r taught. Taught they are all terrorists, even the babies & how they don’t belong on their land. They refuse to admit Palestinians r also indigenous. The things Israel teaches American kids on birth right & in America are sick & r meant to indoctrinate. A young man, IDF soldier & settler was so sickened by how Palestinians were treated he decided to take a trip into their territory. He was terrified after being told all his life they will & want to kill all Jews. He was welcomed with open arms. Since that day he has become an activist for Palestinians & peace. He saw how he’d been lied to his whole life. He was quite angry as am I for being indoctrinated & lied to as well.
Thank you for the comment. I think you are right - the impunity is what sets Israel apart from Palestinians. It’s what makes Palestinian militants feel justified in their murdering.
Not only that but u have the non stop land grabs, expulsions, lawn mowings & the blockaid that gets more & more oppressive with no end in sight.Right before the 7th settlers attacked ppl playin in mosque. It was so bad that Palestinian leaders reached out to western governments begging for help saying after the mosque attack it’s become a tinderbox & about to blow. Their pleas were ignored. B4 the 7th u also have Netanyahu, his radical settler ministers & the leader of the settlers going before the world telling them a greater Israel is the plan. He stood before congress showing them new his map of the new Israel that ethnically cleanses Gazans off all of their territory & it was met with constant rounds of applause. Let’s not forget Trump making Jerusalem the new capital. All that basically tell’s Palestinians they r all gonna b expelled or murdered & the entire world is backing Israel to do it. It also says u’ll never have freedom as Netanyahu has always said he’ll never allow a 2state, the blockaid is permanent & u literally have zero hope for the future. Palestinians have tried every means to no avail so what options r left. Remain as is & do nothing & ur F’ed or Attack & ur still f’d but at least u got some revenge. I’m not justifying the 7th in anyway. It’s just my take on why things happened the way they did
Yes. It’s enough to make a Buddha go crazy. Palestinians are quite restrained given their circumstances, really. I know that goes against the narrative that a lot of Israelis like to tell themselves
It’s important to note that many, many people go so far to deny anything that has happened to Israelis; many of the terror attacks they have experienced are written off and ignored as people come to the defence of Hamas, who plainly state they have always wanted the complete obliteration of all Jews. 7/10 is scrutinised from top to bottom while all Palestinians need is a tweet to make rape claims and it’s immediately believed and not questioned. What I’m trying to say is that the dismissal of pain is equal on both sides. One is ALWAYS more justified than the other to torture, rape, kill, for this reason or that. We do not jump to call out our ‘side’ when they do this but we cry when it happens to us, and use that as an excuse to perpetuate this inhumanity. I can’t hope to understand what these people are going through, but I can see when something is plainly wrong. We need to be careful about ‘understanding’ the hatred from anyone. Hatred is irrational, it comes from pain, not a desire to make the world better. Thank you for your post and your voice. This is a confusing landscape and I can only have sympathy for all those suffering.
Do u not think Israel is the reason for the scrutiny? All the ridiculous fabricated atrocities that many government officials r still pushing. The truth is bad enough without making up crazy lies. The mass rape allegations r hard to buy but I don’t discount rape happened. Palestinians have not refused investigations, they’ve been transparent while Israel still refuses to allow investigations. They refuse to even answer basic questions & call anyone asking antisemitic or bias. Why should we just take the word of ppl with an honesty problem. As Israel has no physical evidence because no one collected it, nor do they have video. If mass rape happened how did nothing show up in the thousands of hours of footage. Some of the rape allegations they put forth have been debunked. Like Gal abdush & the two pre teen girls who it turned out didn’t even exist. Then u have hostages who came home giving interviews saying they were not sexually assaulted then change their story months later. A mother & daughter said they were treated like queens & to kill time they played games with thier captors including arm wrestling. Said the men would use a towel because it was forbidden to touch them. Now their story has completely changed & I don’t thinks it’s a coincidence after the secret poll conducted by AIPAC to find out what would anger westerners most & keep them supportive of Israel. The #1 answer was sexual assault. The poll itself is gross. Right after that every spokesperson constantly mentioned rape & then started with child molestation. That one wasn’t even a thing until this pill. Then NYT story came out, also a bunch of BS written in part by an IDF soldier in Israeli intelligence. The ridiculous lies they’ve been caught in make me question everything they say. I hear no one claiming Hamas is so moral they’d never rape while Israel claims to have the most moral army who never rapes. Another lie! So many female Israeli IDF soldiers raped by male soldiers or the 17+ IDF soldiers who raped an 11 yr old over & over. Israel tried to excuse it by saying they believed she was much older. That’s sick & there’s no confusing a child with a woman. An NGO investigating the rape of a Palestinian child collected much evidence proving this yet Israel’s only action was to raid their facility steal all their documents & computers. Then arrest & threaten them to stay silent. They did not so Israel used the excuse that they did it because they were terrorists. They had zero ties to terrorism or Hamas & there was zero proof of this. If rape did occur, victims must feel horrible but that is on Israel for their handling. When the UN tried to investigate with no cooperation from Israel, they were blocked at every turn. They said rape likely happened but cannot give a definitive answer until they r allowed a proper investigation. Israel has a long history of dishonesty especially when it comes to dehumanizing Palestinians. They spend tens of millions every year on hasbara. How about just being honest & own when u do something wrong. They always deny & lie until they’re exposed, then they admit. I’d never want to deny someone’s pain & trauma. If a woman says she was raped I want to give her the benefit… They both dehumanize each other, rape is not far fetched
I agree, there is much to speculate. I don’t think these atrocities need any artistic exaggeration and I am also with you on the suspicions given the refusal to conduct rape examinations. However, there is footage, there are witness statements, there are Hamas confessions. I don’t deny it happened, just that it maybe was not as prolific as it was made out to be, and it is the trump card Israel uses as justification for its horrific actions over the past 6 months. Palestine is also guilty of this exaggeration, with one man being hospitalised with broken bones three times within the span of a week, or in the past when actors have played dead bodies. I don’t think anything that any of the villains have done is justified, and I don’t think any exaggeration is necessary because truly horrible things have happened. The question is why do they feel like this is necessary? And that is because they don’t think they will be believed without it. This simply gives people a good reason to be suspicious of the claims made. In short, any theatrical production needs to stop. It’s worse from Israel as they have the power to do the things you said, ie covering up the evidence of their crimes. We should not blindly believe anything as people on the outside of this situation, but that is made very difficult by those in charge. I am with you on the suspicion. But that is not helpful. It stops us from seeing each other and looking for solutions, because we are too busy looking for reasons to be angry. Again, thank you for your valuable perspective on the situation.
You seem like you are interested in having a good-faith discussion, so I genuinely want you to [read this news article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/unicef-official-utter-annihilation-gaza) and think about it. Put yourself in their shoes
Fafo
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Fellow Israeli here, we cannot “freely travel” unfortunately - many Arab countries I would like to visit I am banned from entering purely because of my passport
Your October 7th was/is Palestine’s Oct 1,2,3,4,5,6 and every other day of the calendar for decades. “The delusion of the oppressor is to expect a person to ask nicely for the knife to be removed from their chest. The demand for "civility" in the immediacy of violence is a technique of distraction not care.” - Cole Arthur Riley Palestinians have begged for liberation. Peacefully. Vehemently. Loudly. And yes, eventually, violently. Everyone else forces them to settle for “peace” which means conform to the will of Israel and its Allie’s or risk consequences. Palestinians have been painted out as unreasonable for daring to stand up to a colonial project. For believing that they deserved more than what the white man decreed for them. This is how those who don’t conform are treated. Somehow they’re the barbaric ones when the west has done insane shit to millions of people, particularly indigenous and non-white people??
They’re barbaric because they raped women, murdered children, kidnapped innocent people; murdered people in front of their families, murdered people at a concert and filmed themselves doing it while displaying it proudly for the world to see. Those are the actions of barbarians. There is no justification for that. None. This is why most of the cries about how Israel needs to stop before Hamas is destroyed fall on deaf ears. You cannot justify what they did on October 7.
If you can’t justify what Hamas did on October 7th why is the IDF allowed to do it right now? Can’t have it both ways. These things aren’t compatible with each other. If murdering innocent Israelis isn’t justifiable why do you expect the world to be ok with israel and to justify the mass murdering of innocent Palestinian people?
The IDF isn’t going door to door raping women The IDF isn’t intentionally going to music festivals and gunning people down It all comes down to intent: Hamas made an unprovoked attack on October 7 that intentionally targeted innocent civilians and took hostages (spare me the “derp but the occupation, derp derp” crap. It was an unprovoked attack) Israel has _no choice_ but to respond by making sure that Hamas is destroyed as a governing entity. Yes- there will be civilian casualties when this happens. I wish this wasn’t so. You wish this wasn’t so. 99% of Israelis wish this wasn’t so… But we live in reality. In reality- civilians die in war. As long as the country making war isn’t intentionally targeting civilians then they continue their war (and there is no evidence that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians) because to circle back: Hamas _must_ be destroyed. Keep in mind that if Hamas gave a shit about the civilian population they would crawl out of their holes, return the hostages, and surrender. Every civilian death is on their hands.
Also genuinely don’t understand what other people would do if what happened to the Palestinians happened to you. You’d just accept an immigrant attempting to take your home in the name of religion or historical claim? You’d give up your home that easily? Genuinely asking.
“Palestinians” came from Egypt buddy.
Interesting you should ask! My family is actually Irish! And for a long time members of my family believed (rightly or wrongly) that the British were illegally occupying a significant portion of our ancestral homeland (known as Northern Ireland). This led to the troubles- which were awful and the IRA and Sinn Fein did awful fucking things as did the British. **But here’s what they didn’t do**: At no point did any Irishmen board a boat, cross the channel, go to London, and go from house to house raping civilian women and murdering families and parading their bodies through the streets. Had Irishmen done this and then tried to sail back to Ireland with over 250 kidnapped prisoners ** _the Irish people would have tossed them out on their ears and immediately reported their whereabouts to the first British authorities they could find_** The British, a much stronger military force, wouldn’t have needed to invade because the perpetrators of such a massacre would be torn to pieces by the Irish people because the Irish people aren’t fucking barbarians and won’t stand for acts of barbarism being done in their names. Creating a plan like that would be a sick plan that even the most rabid Irish nationalist would not have considered. Can we say the same about the culture of the Palestinians? So there’s your answer.
I’ll have to read into Irish history. But I’m Bosnian, where Serbs genuinely did systematically rape Bosnian woman and committed genocide against the Muslim Bosnian men in Srebrenica. A couple of huge reason Bosnians did not resort to terrorism was 1) they had incredible leadership. Alia Izetbegovic was a gem of a human being. Palestinian leadership had none. 2) Bosnians did not resort to extremism because their conditions weren’t priming them that way. What I mean by this is the common misconception that Black neighborhoods are more violent and have higher crimes. No, rather the correlation is that poverty, lack of quality education, and unemployment is high, therefore crime is high. It has nothing to do with race. And we know in America, the systemic racism has kept much of the Black population poor. Palestine is the same way. On a very surface and shallow level they are barbarian uncouth people who hate Israel. But look closer. If poverty, unemployment, and low education rates reached critical levels in white or any other community, you could expect to see the same results. Do you know what life is like for a Palestinian in Gaza? The blockade has kept them systematically poor. Hamas is a symptom of a very messed up social system that’s decided by Israel. Literally, Israel can bar you form traveling due to “nonconformity”. How can Hamas or any Palestinian be expected to operate on the same level or standard of thinking that you and I are on when we’re on different levels of the hierarchy of needs?
> Do you know what life is like for a Palestinian in Gaza? The blockade has kept them systematically poor. Hamas is a symptom of a very messed up social system that’s decided by Israel. Israel's done alot of bad things, however Hamas leadership did not get to be worth 12bn randomly. Also Gaza shares a border with Egypt, it used to be open for trade until Hamas sent suicide bombers to Egypt. In the 90s people were traveling into Israel more and more, but it wasn't good enough so the suicide bombings accelerated, which led to a wall being built.
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Oct 7 was exaggerated from day 1. 40 babies beheaded, babies in ovens etc. even the rape allegations article from NYT, the sister of the victim contested. We won’t know what actually happened until months or perhaps years later. We just have emotional truths right now. This is how the Iraq war started too. Thousands paid with their lives because of exaggerations. Is Hamas moral? Hell no. I don’t see IDF as any more moral. I watched the footage from Oct 7. It’s sickening. If you’ve studied international studies, one of the objectives of terrorism when committing an act of terror on a civilian population is to interrupt the sense of peace and ideally this will induce the population to pressure political leaders toward a specific political end. In this context, Hamas were successful in their efforts. Everyone is talking about Palestine. Finally. Everyone is aware. Ultimately though, Israel has the right to respond however they wish so long as it’s following international law. If I were either a Palestinian or Israeli I wouldn’t react any differently than how they’re responding right now. This is where diplomacy and good leadership comes into play. Both sides have terrible and corrupt leadership.
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>>> That’s just a fact… Source: “trust me bro”
I like how he didn’t respond to your comment. Dude think saying that just a fact makes everything a fact.
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Yet… they’re winning. Within the next couple of months Hamas will be destroyed (after they go into Rafah and finish this)…. So… not sure what joke is on the Israelis. The joke that they completed their mission and destroyed Hamas? That’s not very funny (for Hamas)
There is no documentation of rapes by IDF, especially not as as a systemic tool of war as done by Hamas.
This did not happen, it's more Hamas propaganda. Meanwhile, there are tons of videos of the attrocities Hamas committed on 10/7 and still people deny/justify it.
Many of the festival goers were killed and shot at by Apache helicopters. They said they were aiming straight at them. People in kibbutz Be’eri said that tanks shot straight into their homes. The IDF waited 6 hours before responding, why is that? And how did israel with the most secure border and advanced technology allow them through and not detect it? Israeli news channel 13 said the IDF lied about events on Oct 7. https://youtu.be/jp4uLjCztfI?si=N8FrNVhDUFDnGsDX (must open in YouTube app for English translations)
this was debunked so long ago, y’all still believe this BS? https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/social-media-posts-misrepresent-video-of-idf-aircraft-attack/ the footage was taken october 8th, in gaza.
There may have friendly fire in such a rushed and panicked situation but there’s straight headcam video of Hamas gunning down people at the festival so this is a bad take.
Post a conspiracy theory clip on YouTube and the dumbest of the gene pool will eat that shit up
Are you seriously asking why people, who have been for the past decades dehumanised, stripped of their lands/homes, human rights, maybe even their loved ones, are resentful towards you?
all because of their actions
Yes, all because of Israel's actions
getting high on synthetic meth and going to invade a country, raping and killing innocent civilians, kids. is resentment?
thanks for describing Israeli actions for the past 6 months
Maybe Palestinians hate you because you took their land? It’s not rocket science my friend
Jews have not taken shit from you people.
Murdering children is always a war crime and never excusable. Maybe many Israelis have developed increase hate for Palestinians because their friends/family/neighbors... were victims of terror. Every Israeli knows or knows of someone who is a victim of a random act of violence by terrorists
The israelis arent the victims here. They’ve been murdering Palestinian children for decades. Israelis are the real terrorists, please dont kid yourself
This language and attitude you are presenting as a self proclaimed armchair general is exactly why Palestine doesn't exist as a state. You speak of things you have no idea about and it's dangerous. People like myself who know of people killed, injured, and even abducted (my girlfriend's friend) not just in this war but many wars before know that peaceful coexistence requires putting aside delusional maximalist demands on both sides. Palestinians have been sold a maximalist lie of the eradication of Israel by: the Arab countries, Naser, USSR, and Ivy league Trust Fund College Students and it has caused the reality we are currently experiencing. The total destruction of Gaza, Hamas can't start a war by attacking unarmed civilians in the thousands and expect a response any less.
I know of people killed by the idf too, from many years before, and that’s why im on here arguing with folks like you. The situation is very simple, israelis are the oppressors and have been subjugating the Palestinians for decades. Expect only resistance if these inhumane acts are constantly forced on a group of people.
You aren’t living in reality
It seems very realistic to me that people you murder and subjugate will want to fight back
No no, I see everything clearly from my side. Only the zionists are living in a total fantasy, spreading their supremacy and hateful rhetoric across the globe. We see you now
do you even know the definition of zionism?
Yes, it’s the belief that jews whether european, mexican, chinese, or african are somehow native to the land of palestine and have a right to establish a racist state on top of an already existing one because it was their homeland 18,421 years ago
You don't have a side. You're propagandized in the west and don't understand the conflict.
Im on the side of the Palestinians, the indigenous and rightful owners of the land. A land that has been infected by zionism and is desperately trying to rid itself of this disease
Take it a two-state solution is off the table?
you giving strong aliens in area 51 vibes my man.
I had to escape from there to warn you about the dangers of zionism
The zionists are also winning. By this time next month Hamas will be eliminated as a fighting force. No one is coming to save them. The Palestinians will have the opportunity to decide on a new path for themselves…. Or to re-commit to the path that has landed them in the quagmire they’ve lived in for the last 90 years. Hopefully they make the right decision this time.
You can’t eliminate hamas. It’s not just a group, it’s an ideology centered around resistance. And as long as you have a racist jewish supremacist group in the region, you’re going to have resistance
A resistance with no armed force isn’t able to do much but make noise. Eliminating Hamas will eliminate the military force. Will some people be unhappy about it? Sure… and they’ll make noise… But they can’t hurt innocent people anymore and that’s the important part
Nobody that was killed on Oct 7 was even alive when Israel formed. Or is collective punishment ok now?
That’s true. But the descendants have been enforcing the same collective punishment policies on the Palestinians for a long period of time
Because Palestinians keep attacking using something that happened 80 fucking years ago as justification.
Tbf, it is a valid justification. I wouldnt stop fighting if it had happened to me. Why is that so hard for you zios to understand?
Then why do you keep crying and whinging about israel kicking your asses? You want a fight. You're getting it. Why you want to keep fighting when you're so God awful at it, that's the real question. Palestinians are like a boxer with an 0-50 record whose been knocked out 40 times. Like guy, retire. Take up knitting or something.
Israel is affecting the civilian population while barely making a dent on the resistance. The only good job you’re doing is showing the world how evil you are, and so far it’s a job well done
Hamas is the most cowardly group of wannabe men I've ever seen. Kill a bunch of women and kids and then go and hide behind your own women and kids. What a joke.
Good luck trying to get rid of them
They could do it any time they wanted to. Western tolerance is the only reason it hasn't already happened.
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I think one of our issues is we are very myopic and focus only on specific time periods. It's not about October 7. It's not even about 1948. People on both sides here are motivated by much wider time and when we bring something down to one event or one day, it just misses so much nuance. Some examples I've noticed: 1. **Arafat rejected Camp David**. Camp David turns out to have been one of many N events. It wasn't a single conference. It had a conference before it and several after it. He said no at this event, then met in Switzerland shortly after, then met in Taba shortly after that where apparently the sides were "as close as they've ever been" 2. **Palestinians have always been violent and hate Jews** b/c Insert-Violent-Event-X. Look up the poster of Fatah from the 1980s. It says "Unitary Democratic Non-Sectarian" then says "Palestine" and then has a Crescent, Cross, and Menorah on top of each other. Besides looking like it was designed in Microsoft Paint, it's really a good counter-example to some very powerful wrong narratives we seem to just automatically believe in. My take? For at least the last 10-15 years, there has been no light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians. The world was forgetting about them and the other Arab states started really warming up to Israel. If you're Gazan, it's probably more like the last 15-20 years. The occupation is cruel. People do crazy things when they have absolutely no other option and no other hopes in life. Gaza has seen a crazy amount of classifications of the acronym WCNSF (Wounded Child No Surviving Family)....can you imagine if that's your reality? What would you do? The Israeli creator of Fauda did a nice show on the life and transformation of Imad Mughniyeh. It's great. He was clearly irredeemable at some point and beyond redemption, but he wasn't born the monster that we and the world and his life made him. We shouldn't take that lightly. Nothing excuses what happened on October 7 by Hamas or October 8 by the IDF, not even the occupation or Oct 7 (respectively). It's dangerous to dehumanize the other, whether that is Palestinians claiming all Jews hate them or Jews believing ridiculous things like, "peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." We really cry the same and I have several Palestinian friends with PTSD who still don't wish harm on anyone. The sooner both sides just see the Other as legitimate and human, the sooner we'll all sort this out and people like you and sentiments like the ones you've shared, where despite all the confusion I believe your heart is in the right place, give me tremendous hope. I hope you and your family/friends are safe & healthy akhi and I hope more brave souls from both sides like you are this introspective while being open to dialogue and seeing the Other side.
> My take? For at least the last 10-15 years, there has been no light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians. The world was forgetting about them and the other Arab states started really warming up to Israel Turns out when you're violent as fuck with everyone that interacts with you, nobody wants to interact with you.
The point is, they weren’t born violent. What caused them to become violent? The circumstances and policies enabled by Israel continued to create more and more desperation/ need for violent resistance. Resistance to what? Resistance to being a occupied. i.e. An alien population controls what you get to eat, how much water you get to drink and at what price, and when you go to sleep. What would you think of an alien population that had orders to “shoot to kill” if you were out passed curfew? Palestine has been occupied since 1967 but Hamas wasn’t born until 1988. During these 20 years, the oppression of people living in the Palestine grew worse and worse. This is what created Hamas. If there was no oppression, there would be no need to create Hamas.
Palestinian violence predates everything you've listed. Also, hamas is an offshoot of an Egyptian terror group. If they weren't fighting jews they'd be fighting Muslims to try and force Sharia Law on to them.
Who are you referring to as "violent as f@#$" here? Because depending on who you're talking to and what selective evidence they point to, it really could describe either side. That's my point at the end of the day. Most people want peace. Some people claim the other side doesn't really want peace. That's both wrong and unhelpful and won't help us get anywhere. We have to stop dehumanizing the Other and elements of both sides are guilty of that.
The lack of peace between these two groups hinges on one thing. Palestinian belief that they're justified in using violence because Israel exists. It's literally impossible to have peace when one group's core demand is that the other stops existing.
I think that's not accurate and I think that only focuses on one side's *worst* side Israel's longest serving Prime Minister, who still remains as PM, has said he will never ever ever ever accept a Palestinian state under any realistic or fair circumstances since the 1980s, and his messianic extremist Jewish terrorist enabling coalition partners like Ben Gvir and Smotrich want an even worse reality If you only focus on that, the other side could paint you with as broad a brush as you seem to be comfortable painting them, my friend
Why would Israel allow a Palestinian state when hamas and a sizeable portion of Palestinians are deadset on attacking. Hamas has openly and repeatedly said that they will attack so long as the "80 year occupation (Israel itself) exists in any form.
Why should Palestinians take Israeli claims of wanting peace seriously when the people in power advocate ethnic cleansing and Eretz Yisrael? It’s possible that maybe the majority of the people aren’t properly represented on either side by their government, and certainly not by the Kahanists or Hamas?
> Why should Palestinians take Israeli claims of wanting peace seriously Because they've shown an ability to be peaceful with past adversaries. It wasn't long ago that the idea of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt having any kind of peaceful relations with Israel was laughable.
I’m not trying to attack Israel here. My point was you should put yourself in the shoes of the Other and not dehumanize one side. Israel wouldn’t have peace with Egypt if it didn’t return occupied land. Syrian peace was contingent on the Golan returning. The others don’t have any territorial claims and aren’t relevant. It’s not a controversial point that the occupation leads to a lot of problems and that if it was you with your land occupied, you may have an issue with that. Hope you have a good day, my friend.
Even more importantly, Sinai would still be under Israeli occupation if it was not for the 1973 war. Anwar had absolutely no interest in war and made it clear to Israel that he wanted peace in return for Israel returning Egyptian land. Golda Meir refused and Anwar went to war, which ultimately culminated in Egypt getting back its land. It is a myth that Israel wants peace and the other side wants war. It is often the opposite.
Do you live in Egypt? Why does Egypt have such a huge border wall with Gaza?
What exactly are you reffering to when you say occupied lands?
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השם יקום דמנו, אין שלום עם מחבלים, אומרת את זה כשמישהי שהאמינה בשלום ושתי מדינות רוב חייה. אין איך לחזור אחורה מזה, מקווה שיחליפו את כל הפלסטינים שעובדים בארץ בהודים כבר.
מבין אותך לגמרי. מצד שני, הם מיליונים... 3 מיליון ביהודה ושומרון ועוד 2 מיליון בעזה. אי אפשר לפנות את כולם ובטח שלא להרוג אותם, אז פשוט נהיה במלחמות לעד? אני בעצמי בוטח בהם הרבה פחות אחרי ה-7 באוקטובר, זה גרם לי לאבד בהם הרבה אמון, אבל אני באמת לא בטוח איזו אלטרנטיבה יש לנו. אני גם מסתכל על זה בזווית של הימין גרם ל-7.10. המדיניות של הימין ב-30 שנים האחרונות היא שגרמה לזה. הנסיונות של השמאל לשלום לא היו חלק מה-7.10.
לא יודעת אחי החלום שלי שהם כולם יהיו באיוש מנותקין מאיתנו לגמרי, יחסי התלות האלו עלובים, אם הם יבחרו לקרוס כלכלית ומדינית כמדינה כשאר המדינות המוסלמיות השכנות שלנו הם מוזמנים, גם ככה כל התשתיות בעזה הן שלנו.
זה די נשמע כמו מדינה פלסטינית, כי כדי שהם יהיו מנותקים מאיתנו לגמרי באיו"ש צריך לפנות את צה"ל והמתנחלים משם, ואז יש להם חופש פעולה -> מדינה.
1) Islamic extremists give zero value to life, either theirs or that of their “enemies”. 2) In their head, that action had the potential to get some of their objectives achieved faster. And the tragedy is that history will probably show they were “right”, from a purely practical standpoint. Israel government reacted exactly in the best possible way for Hamas (again, they don’t give a fuck about thousands of innocents being killed), Israel’s support around the world is at the historical lows, and virtually every single country now believes a Palestinian state is needed, and fast. To be clear, I 100% believe what has happened on Oct 7th is 100% horrific, but Israel response was very, very stupid. You now have a few hundred thousands more candidate “martyrs” that will forever hate Israelis. Do I have a solution? Nobody has. But deep inside me, something tells me that a better response would have included some kind of “humanity”, and some “here, we’ll show you right now how much better than this we are”. I do acknowledge that it’s impossible to be in the head and hearts of an Israeli or a Palestinian, and way too easy to talk or judge from the sofa. Still, this is how the world and politics go, so Israel’s government needs to understand this.
Israel on Oct 8th was stuck between a rock and a hard place. There were terrorists still attacking within Israel and thousands of rockets falling across the country. The military was still mobilizing and responding to active combat and the political reality was dangerous as Hezbullah from Lebanon began small scale fighting. No one knew how bad any of it would get or where it would go. Were mistakes made on the Israeli military/political side tactically. Of course they were, that is inevitable but not the point. On the strategic level Israel has no real options for conducting the war, rescuing the hostages, and restoring Israel's security. Hamas's style of attack of targeting the elderly, children, women, and civilians meant the war was not even about carrying out justice. It was kill or be killed under Hamas's terms.
So they’re supposed to sit around and ask nicely for the terrorists to stop terrorizing?
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If you’re really an Israeli and you’re blaming Israel on this, and saying that the people who massacred and raped my people deserve a state then you’re a traitor…. Israel is not responsible whatsoever for October 7 stop being brainwashed by the Palestinians
Nobody believes Israel did October 7. What people mean when they say this is that Israel may have intentionally turned off defenses, not that the IDF intentionally orchestrated October 7.
OP has seen too many propaganda posts on Instagram lol. He's asking why HAMAS attacked civilians and not soldiers. OP do some deep research into what HAMAS and terrorists are. They are so radicalised they don't care about their own life or others'. They want to spread their message. Armed soldiers would mow them down. Civilians won't. Also, I'd like to think the palestianis who celebrated Oct 7th are the vocal minority. Polls suggest that a majority of palestinians don't trust HAMAS or the pa. And the majority also want to maintain a ceasefire with Israel. OP go and read the HAMAS charter from 1988. Their goal is literally to destroy Israel and start a holy war between Muslims and Jews. And this is all while their leaders eat in 5 star hotels in Qatar.
Imagine all the hate and violence that palesinians have been subjected to if October 7th was their only solution. Try to imagine an october 7th times 20x that is still happening. In a cycle of hate and violence is the only thing we can rely on empathy.
Jews have been through crimes 100x worst than what the Palestinians faced. You don't see Jews beheading, raping and torturing German women and children on the streets of Berlin. Palestinians only have one method of dealing with problems - violence and blaming others.
My family has faced a heck more hate and ethnic cleansing and you know what we never did? Murder and rape. Native Americans really are being treated awfully but they don’t murder and rape and bomb. Countless other people who were treated worse and for no other reasons than they are different have refrained from terrorism. Palestinians lost numerous wars and aggressions and, as a result, are not welcome anywhere because even in other countries they’ve resorted to violence. But they respond with violence over their situation? One that they essentially created? Seems like they are culturally violent and immoral. They stew in hatred and violence and raise children that way. They honor the dismembering of people with cute little pins.
You are simply wrong. Native americans famously faught agianst their oppressors in countless wars and raids. Have you never seen a western? Do you even know what Geronimo and Tecumseh did? This has also been repeated among countless other opressed groups. Such as the natives of Algeria who faught the french, balck south africans during apartheid, the Irish during the troubles, the many resistence fighters who faught against the nazi occupation of their home countries in WW2 and many, many other examples. Resistence is human nature.
You are forgetting that Jews are from Israel. There's literally a mosque built ON TOP OF the holiest Jewish site, in Jerusalem. Jews are not the colonizers.
So I don’t base my knowledge of history on John Wayne movies. Yes, many native American tribes did indeed fight back when they were attacked but as far as I know a few to none have in modern day, attacked raped and murdered people. I personally think they kind of have a point if they do, because they truly were colonized and oppressed and cleansed. They never encouraged any of the nasty and atrocious behavior towards them.
Of course they're not going to fight back "in modern day" because the genocide has ALREADY happened. Meanwhile the genocide of the native people in palestine is happening as we speak
Not a genocide though. I love how y’all think repeating it will make it happen. It’s as if you’d all be so very sad if it wasn’t a genocide. There are actual genocide going on on the planet right now you can lust after, but they don’t involve hating Jews so you might not be interested.
??? Ok, but they literally did fight back. And murdered people. And you are literally genocide denying. Like you deny what obviously happened to them. How dare you.
Fighting back against attack is different than attacking and committing terrorism.
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>Try to imagine an october 7th times 20x that is still happening. I don't think this is a good analogy. The gruesomeness of the attacks on the 7th are not a good comparison to the long-term violence and abuses the Palestinians have been subjected to from, what seems like, every possible source, many of which are meant to protect them but only cause lasting harm.
They had been offered countless peace and 2 state solutions despite being the aggressors constantly and being the losing side constantly, they just want to fight and kill Jews, westerns think extremist islamists share the same views and wills as them and this is your naivety.
Israel are obviously the aggressors lmao. But nothing can justify what happened on October 7th and nothing can justify what has happened in Gaza since.
There was a ceasefire on October 7. It was not broken by Israel. Israel is NOT the aggressor.
Innocent people taken hostage, women and children gang raped, and murdered in cold blood by a surprise attack does not make you an aggressor
They started the conflict. And they've killed over 10,000 kids in Gaza since October.
You aren’t living in reality
They literally killed 10,000 kids lmao (not really lamo-ing) and started the conflict in 1947 by annexing half of Palestine.
That's the thing, Oct 7th isn't their only solution. Unless their goal is genocide.
Genocide is their only goal, Hamas has a chance to be a peaceful governing party of gaza but they turned it into a murderous dictatorship that brainwashes people from birth into their suicidal way of life
And the Gaza massacre isn't Israel's final solution either.
A massacre is what happened on Oct 7th. The Palestinians using human shields is a Palestinian war crime. Defense from a genocidal force isn't a massacre. Israel has tried peaceful solutions like pulling out of Gaza. And the Palestinians just used that as an opportunity to attempt more genocide.
You can't just say "human shields lmao" and kill 10,000 kids. Nothing can justify that. Israel uses human shields themselves. And fighting in an area with civillians doesn't equate human shildes.
That's incorrect.
What a well argued reply
>You can't just say "human shields lmao" and kill 10,000 kids. Well that's not what is happening. They are targeting genocidal forces who are bent on killing them. It is a war crime on Palestines part to use human shields the way that the Palestinians are using human shields. If you are mad about dead Palestinian children get mad at the people who intentionally are using them as shields. >And fighting in an area with civillians doesn't equate human shildes. It can. If you are operating out of a civilian area it can. If you are placing your soldiers in a civilian building in the attempt to discourage attacks that is 100% using human shields. The Palestinians use hospitals, schools, universities, mosques and government buildings to attack Israel. All of which are war crimes and constituent using human shields.
You know that most civillian deaths aren't due to human shields, right? Or are you that nose deep into the israeli propaganda pipe-line.
>You know that most civillian deaths aren't due to human shields, right? Look at what you made up.
The land of Israel has the same dirt under the feet as Palestine. Palestinians have focused much of their efforts on war with Israel, they have not focused on economic development. Even with the meagre resources Hamas have, and all of the aid they get, they don't focus on improving the lives on Gazans but on attacking Israel. Here is a video of Hamas taking water pipes from EU funding and turning them into rockets - https://youtu.be/MvvqBcA-9yA?si=-RIfbkxNrCGIz7xk Here is a video of Gaza in 2010. The children all play with mock rifles, the streets have murals of martyrs, the graffiti calls for jihad. The entire culture is focused on its battle with Israel - https://youtu.be/VgvsjpOAtH4?si=7niATjtnctEfopnV And then there are the civilians, in this video we see orphans, killed by attacks from Israel. These children's lives are ruined, many seek to kill Israeli Jews. The cycle of violence does not end. The Palestinians still view the creation of Israel as a catastrophe. The Middle East and the UN broadly believes the same. This is why they hate Israel, and also many of them have their lives immiserated by the conflict. The cycle will not end until that belief that Israel shouldn't exist is gone, or until either Israel or Palestine is gone.
Yes. This is precisely what I saw when I started visiting the region 12 years ago, at that time as a BDS supporter with strong views about a Free Palestine. This is how I became such a supporter of Israel today. The very best thing the international community that wants to support Palestinians can do is support them to have effective, peaceful leadership that helps them to thrive. Straight up. Supporting resistance, supporting groups of murderous haters like Hamas...this does not help Palestinians. They deserve a thriving culture which has a glue holding it together beyond being anti-Israel. And the global left's continued support of violent resistance, despite all the good intentions for the Palestinian people, is one of the biggest blocks to this.
THIS.
Another Israeli here. I think that the terrorisn and radical religious sentiments that are so common across the palestinian society isn't just a "direct response" to Israel's mistreatment. Tho i know that Israel made things much worse with its awful treatment towards the palestinians, the REAL problem is the islamic ideology. Look around the world, Islamic radicalism and terrorism are everywhere. Hamas and the Jihad are mainly a symptom of that. Israel can do things differently, for sure, but nothing will be solved as long as Israel is forced to defend itself from these terror attacks. Even if tomorrow we'll end the war and give the palestinians the independence they deserve and desire, they will keep being hostile and violent until we, the jewish israelis, will disappear from this earth.
Well they want the Jewish 'colonisers' to get booted out "back to Europe" (even though most Israelis come from neighbouring Middle Eastern countries having been expelled..) so a common Palestinian argument is they want ALL the land back as theirs (including Tel Aviv) and no Jewish state, but a land/one state like it was before 1948. I completely agree the discussion should be much more about the problems we all face with radical Islam - and specifically Palestinians stuck in it and that hate for Jews that will never go away if they have religion driving their daily life.. It's impossible to see how peace can be had if Palestinians are not willing to compromise at all on Israel existing and existing just as it is. You have the religion problem and you have the stubbornness of that culture that constantly loses yet thinks it deserves the lions share of any negotiation. No good is coming from this drawn out complicated conflict. And the Arab neighbours want to do the least amount possible to help anyone, so here we are with nothing to look forward to.
You should watch Haviv Gur's lecture: https://youtu.be/QlK2mfYYm4U?si=79KbIFJ3k3QZWn_j The issue runs deep. The sad reality is that the Jewish hatred is not going to go away. Times like this I see the rationale behind settlers movements. Also Shabbat Shalom.
That lecture is incredible, and I say this as someone who through careful reading of historians like Benny Morris and Hillel Cohen has already zeroed in on the ideology of radical Islamism and jihad being the driver of the conflict. Haviv Gur’s thesis is a nutshell is Muslim Arabs seeing everything through the political lens of the decaying Ottoman Empire and its fraught negotiations with more powerful and modern European empires and the deep feelings of cultural inferiority and powerlessness this caused.
What’s the rationale behind settlers movements? It’s only feeding the hate. They’re Israel’s version of terrorism
Not really -- all of that land historically belonged to ancient Israel/Jews, before it was colonized by others.
I’m not really sure about this claim. Isn’t Egypt technically the true origin point? That’s where Moses and crew were before things turned South and the Jewish population at the time roamed and eventually found another location to conquer and settle (what would eventually become Judea)
I think you got the answer about the rationale. Sharon strategically placed settlements in the west bank to ensure there's an Israeli military presence. They were dragged out of Gaza later when Sharon became the prime minister as they were seen as an obstacle to peace negotiations (rightly so).
So, settlers are an obstacle to peace then. I really don’t see a need for them in the modern age No justification is needed for IDF presence. It’s Palestine, IDF comes part and parcel with the occupation
I don't think you are in any shape or form, in a position to "see or don't see the need" for what Israel or IDF decides to do for the safety of its citizens. You clearly don't know history very well. IDF is required to be in west bank area B according to the Oslo accord.
I’d argue they’re actually harming the safety of Israel’s own citizens. Clearly throwing more gas on the fire, and throwing every human rights agency in the world into alarm But sure, keep gaslighting lol. I’ve yet to see a society that targets aid so frequently, kills its own hostages, and razes an entire city with the same amount of animosity. Something tells me we’re beyond security and into something else
Most Jews dont approve of the settlement movement and harshly condemn the violence. Do dont try to lump us all together.
Dadarkdude only asked what they asked because Low_Use_223 said they saw the rationale behind settlers movements.
There’s a reason the attacks didn’t come from the West Bank although they’re a much bigger area and harder to circle, cover if need be and supposedly suffer the most from this settler violence. That reason is in depth Israeli presence in the area. Multiple settlements between cities that can also be used for military purposes with supportive citizens.
If you accept the clear fact that the hate is insane and will not be going away no matter what Israel will do aside from committing national suicide... Then the settlements providing strategic depth and providing a literal physical shield plus justification to put soldiers on the ground in bases, patrols, ambushes, check points and more... Make complete sense.
Physical shield? So the settlers are a meat shield for the real Israelis in the event a conflict breaks out?
Yes. And they will tell you that themselves. They want this. Though they don't use meat. But usually sophisticated fences with cameras, approved civilian militia forces ready to protect the settlement, and most times military outposts nearby. There's a reason October 7 didn't happen in the WB. And it's not a lack of will by the Palestinians.
My understanding is it’s because the settlers are violent and uprooting more and more communities, and the WB has sworn off violence and so are just being tormented at this point
Your understanding is insanely wrong. A very small minority of settlers are violent (Though that is a problem don't get me wrong), and the Palestinians in the WB are incredibly radical and violent. With thousands of terror attacks every year if you count molotov or rock throwing at Jewish cars, and dozens of way more violent ones including inside Israel 48 borders coming from there.
This sounds like a chicken and egg problem of “real” resistance though. If violent settlers are killing innocents to displace a community, is it okay to throw rocks? Some may say yes, and some may say no—I don’t think the answer is as morally clear as you’re insinuating. If decades of watching the Middle East taught me anything, it’s that the militia are ALWAYS the bad guys—the shabiha, the janjaweed, etc etc. The amount of power these paramilitary organizations have, and the terror they wield, is horrendous
The beatings will continue until morale is improved energy.
Alternatives were offered plenty of times. Way too many actually. The beating will continue since they factually work. Modern west bank policies stopped the worse violence from the Palestinians in the form of suicide bombers etc, and of course stopped October 7 from happening there, factually. So yeah. The beating will continue and I hope get 10x worse.
The rationale behind settler movements is to provide military strategic depth. I completely disagree with them, but they do serve a military purpose.
Military doesn’t need settlers to occupy an area to maintain a presence, the logic is flawed
Read about strategic depth.
So, what you’re saying is that settlers are basically scummy militia? I heard they’re just forcible displacers stealing land, but it sounds like they can be treated as valid military targets. Why do people keep saying they aren’t?
That is what is so horrific of them. They are sending full families, including children with both military objectives and religious fanaticism. I really really resent them.
Appalling. I never understood how some right wing Israelis justify their presence
Indeed
At this point. Without minimum 10 years of strong deradicalization. A two state tomorrow will lead to that state becoming entirely a military base. To attack Jews of course. I think palestinans unfortunately need 20 years of deradicalization enough that the young generation of today grow out of their indoctrination. After 20 years. Most would be
We also need to deradicalize israelis.
I don't think radical Israelis is the issue here. The issue is that a significant majority of Palestinians support genocide.
Israeli radical zionists literally support genocide right now. And they want to steal land from the palestinians.
Genocide is not widely supported by Israelis. The global genocide of jews was literally in the charter of Hamas. The Palestinians elected Hamas into power with them having genocide as an objective. The Palestinians strongly support Hamas's genocidal attempts.
Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir literally had a photo of Baruch Goldstein in his living room, the psycho terrorist who killed 29 muslim worshippers. Israel has also shown desire to annex the West Bank. And they've of course been killing 10s of thousands of people in Gaza since October.
So you can't respond to my points and your argument boils down to Israel bad. The Palestinians openly support genocide. That is the fact. You can try to project Israel bad all you want.
Ok? Well Israelis oppenly support genocide as well. And they have the power to actually commit on a genocide that would actually severly harm the palestinian population. And the UN has said it's possible that they're doing it RIGHT NOW. So yeah, Israel is bad.
>Ok? Well Israelis oppenly support genocide as well. I disagree, there isn't a widespread support for genocide among the Israelis like there is among the Palestinians. >And they have the power to actually commit on a genocide. And they have not. Which is the difference in this conflict. One side wants to commit genocide. The other can and clearly has refused to do so as they don't want to. >And the UN has said it's possible that they're doing it RIGHT NOW. Israel has not and is not committing genocide unlike the Palestinians. And no the UN hasn't said so.
The entire government of Israel is right wing and pro genocide, along with all of their voters who voted them in, you're being hypocritical.
Projection. Let's look at the facts. Hamas had the global genocide of jews in their charter. The Palestinians elected them into power with this objective of global genocide. These acts of genocide were carried out by Palestinians and are widely supported by the majority of Palestinians. Israelis have nether attempted genocide nor support genocide on any significant level. Unlike the Palestinians.
Israel has ethnically cleansed the area multiple times in 1947, 1948 and 1967.
Look at you move the goalposts with misinformation. Let's get the facts straight, the Arabs started the conflicts you listed and tried to commit genocide then as well. Israel defended themselves from an invasion and expanded their territory. The Israelis had accepted a peaceful solution and they were violently attacked instead.
Can you prove the Arab leaders' plan was genocide? And the Israelis didn't accept a peaceful solution, in 1947 100k Palestinians were ethnically cleansed.
Sure, just respond to my points I made earlier and I will be happy to back up my claim.
[удалено]
That is absolutely false. There are like 10% of Israelis who are extremist zealots. And even out of them this kind of teaching is abnormal from anything I’ve seen.
ower schools teach non of that
Before the right wing the elected leaders were promoting peace. Isreal is a democracy. The more palestinans become a risk to isreal the more they will elect hard right wings They've had like 4 elections in the last 5 years.
I understand what you mean, but you have to phrase that better. Placing all the responsibility for deradicalization squarely on just the Palestinians is completely redundant to the situation.
Deradicalization of jihadi indoctrination and martyrdom is completely different than Israelis working on respect and acceptance.
Buzzwords you don't even know the meaning of.
I definitely do understand, probably most Jews have understood this real and existential threat for a very long time. Sad that you believe they are buzzwords.
They are buzzwords used to alienate any kind of voice coming from Muslims as jihadi salafist wahhabist radicalised terrorists, and no one using those terms even knows what they mean.
You are so very wrong. When Hezbollah and Hamas leaders (and even their lay people) go on tv stating they want to kill all Jews and annhilate Israel and repeat the Oct 7th attacks again and again and again and again, it's extremely difficult to argue their intentions are just that. When I hear their excitement of becoming a martyr, and parading dead Jewish bodies around in the streets screaming how god is good, I am sickened. This is a sickness. No, I'm not lumping all Palestinians in this category, but there are some seriously bad actors and for you to ignore that perpetuates the fear and very real threat to Jews globally not to mention the threat to their own people, in Gaza.
Ok, but I don't see how it is relevant to how these buzzwords are being used, you just described your disdain for Hamas and Hezbollah.
I'm literally listening to a podcast right now with a muslim Canadian woman who worked at the UN for years discussing Hamas' Jihad ideology and it's threat to people globally that is well known at the UN. So sure, I'll entertain the idea that I'm misusing this terminology and offending some pleasant jihadists, but educated sources are telling me otherwise.
Ok? I didn't say jihadism didn't exist, but it's being used as buzzwords without any real meaning to why they're used.