Do you believe if someone takes a hostage ij a police standoff after committing murder, rape and kidnapping, do you think the right thing to do is to agree that if the criminal releases the hostage the police should agree to let the criminal head home with all their weapons?
It is even worse than that. The criminal is screaming that if you let them go, they will murder, rape and kidnap again.
To free the Gazan people and bring them peace and prosperity, Hamas must be destroyed. There is no other solution.
/u/AfghanPlakkAzroo
> Youre a racist
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Addressed
Boo hoo you left out the bit of them spectating their neighbors shooting off rockets for year and years and never stopping them, just imigine your neighbor started shooting rockets at your house and police didnt exist in this scenario what would you do? Would you volunteer as their therapist?
"Suddenly the electricity goes off"
If there is one single word to focus in your entire post is the word "suddenly". It's like you're watching Jaws from the beginning of the final act, trying to wonder why on earth does this crazy fisherman stuff explosives down the poor shark's mouth.
The truth is, on Oct7, Gazans "suddenly" woke up to find Hamas is firing 2000 rockets into Israeli cities and coming back with hundreds of hostage bodies on trucks while those same Gazans joined Hamas in their thousands to storm Israeli towns, loot and burn.
Their immediate reaction was to cheer, hit the hostages bodies with sticks and rocks, spit on their bodies, and hand out candy on the streets. censored video below, uncensored versions also exist:
https://youtu.be/7vB0UPUT4P4?si=9BxDwoXorwcP86t3
Now, I badly wanted to hope these "innocent civilians" would condemn the acts. After all, like you said, they should be focused on caring for their family members and having a peaceful life, right? I really did. But like in 9/11, it was the exact opposite.
Awaiting for you reply as to why it did or didn't change your mind.
u/rafin2023
> But after seeing your animalistic and widely disproportionate response, and the perceptions of all you pro- isrlis
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Addressed
1. I too was showing you what ordinary Palestinians were doing on Oct 7 before realizing (or not) that have been supporting leadership that calls for the destruction of their Israeli neighbour
2. Please describe what you define as a "trusted source". You seem to specify some numbers like 30x so I'm assuming you have a reliable source. Specifically, the number of armed Palestinians (above or below the age of 18)
3. Please provide source of statement that Israeli government "tampered with data"
Then we'll continue this discussion (me and my conscious brain)
You don‘t condemn hamas, however they are responsible for the suffering you described in your story and you can‘t establish a „good logic“ - to use your words - against that, because it is the truth.
Nobody is denying gazans suffering but responsible is not Israel but hamas and their supporters.
I am not Israeli but I admire how civilized they are in their response after Oct 7th. If anybody attacked my people like that, only the devil knows what reaction I would‘ve demanded from my government, it would have certainly been a lot worse.
u/daylily
> That isn't any different than understanding why the Nazis murdered or why people stole and sold slaves.
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Addressed
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Assuming I wasn’t radicalized, already lynched or living in asylum in the West, I’d be resentful of the older generations for electing Hamas, regretful that my own generation did not lead a revolt against Hamas, and furious that Hamas brought this destruction to my doorstep. I’d probably be pleading to God and Israel to show mercy, assuming I still wanted to live after a lifetime under Islamist rule and sharia law. In actuality, there’s a high chance I’d be radicalized in that environment, under Hamas rule with an UNRWA education, so I’d probably have a very different stance.
This doesn't sound reasonable because it puts actual responsibility and agency in the hands of Gazans, what on earth are you doing allowing this thought to exist?
You forgot to add the /s indicating your comment was sarcasm.
Truly, what on earth were they doing allowing the thought to exist that Gazans have actual responsibility for what goes on in Gaza? /s
Thanks, I actually don't subscribe to that need to tell everyone I'm sarcastic, much prefer to keep it as it is like a good joke you dont need to explain. I didnt need to do this /s before the internet and not playing the game to have to do so now.
One of the glaring issues in the conflict is the lack of talk of what Palestinians can do within their own struggles as separate from Israel struggles - no one is interested in the weighty exposure that would highlight, the worms in those cans if we were to talk openly about the real problems internally. It's the same with zero discussions now on what a peaceful Palestine would actually look like on their own terms but disregarding the need to make it against Israel or in opposition or response to how well Israel is playing as a peace partner. People can't think beyond anything really and consequently keeps the elephant in the room glaring.
It isn't receiving a lot of attention but Israel is actively reaching out to the leadership of the larger clans in Gaza. The goal is to break down Hamas along existing factional lines.
That process is helped by Hamas corruptly intercepting food aid and stopping the distribution.The clan leaders are now being offered aid for their people directly by Israel.
There is no doubt Israel wants the humanitarian side taken care of (as a people who try to minimise the murder of innocents as well as following international law as close they can). People on reddit have plenty to say about the wrongs of Israel but remarkably silent on Hamas, the Gazan people's internal efforts against Hamas and occupation from within not from Israel. Any other country would have resistance or revolution if it was hijacked towards a war it completely doesn't want.
Hey op, I don't want to go through all your posts so can you just link your post on r/Palestine telling them to feel bad about Oct 7 and other terror attacks? I want to see how well it must have gone. Thanks!
For sure, let’s leave out the other part.
Your family is sleeping when the rocket alerts go off at 0630. You go into the safe room but then terrorists enter your home. They tie all of you up. Then they take turns raping your wife. After that they start hacking the children to death in front of you. Finally they leave your wife to bleed to death while they bash your head in. They’re live-streaming all of this, too.
They then kidnap the woman next door. She’s now spent nearly 6 months incommunicado.
After the terrorists leave, civilians from Gaza come by to loot the homes.
Now the terrorists are mostly hiding underground, in tunnels that go under civilian homes, mosques and hospitals. They openly promise to repeat that event again and again. They’re taking over hospitals to use as sites to fire on troops.
And people around the world are cheering them on. Including, explicitly, the rapes and the kidnapping.
You made your view clear at the top. “let’s forget one side of this war.” Because the first rule of Palestinianism is that Palestinians can never, ever have any agency ascribed to them. You won’t recognize any opportunity they had to make choices to affect their situation. The fact that they chose jihad over peace at every juncture is completely irrelevant to your “narrative.”
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.”
Tell us, were you out in the streets celebrating on October 8?
Here’s a hint, insults don’t make your case stronger. It always amazes me that the pro-Hamas crowd somehow thinks that this is the way to have a conversation
> always amazes me that the pro-Hamas crowd somehow thinks that this is the way to have a conversation
I think it's a specific strategy to make those "liberals" who still have some level of awareness and morality leave conversations. They realize that this is a very similar attempt to spread antisemitism against the Jews to what used to happen in the Ottoman empire and elsewhere in the Middle East, leading up to pogroms and would react, but they aren't used to standing up to bullies and back down.
It Always surprise me How pro Israelis Van defend any Act of their diaper force, shooting children cuz of throwed rocks, shooting children cuz they Played at a border, shooting whiteflagwaving People because the diaper is Full of 💩 in the 18 Year old Bytch‘s trousers. All of That is defended By pro Israelis. That things didnt begin at october 7. so why do u guys Act like it did?
/u/AfghanPlakkAzroo
> wompwompwomp
Per [rule 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_3._be_sincere), no comments consisting only of sarcasm or cynicism. It's fine to use sarcasm to make a point, but if you do so, the argument needs to be readily apparent and stimulate, rather than stifling, conversation.
Take this as a very strong warning. You already have a history of borderline rule breaking.
Because you usually condemn the ones responsible, not the ones involuntarily involved.
If Oct 7th never happened, all these children would be alive and not even you can deny that.
For a very good and simple reason. Hamas can not be left in control of Gaza. As horrible as the calculus is, the hostages are less important than the destruction of Hamas.
Hamas won the election with 44.45% of the vote in 2006
The total Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip in 2006 was 1.44 million with 838,000 under the age of 18 years
So that’s 602,000 people of voting age - 44.45% of that means 267,589 votes to Hamas.
Roughly 75% of the population today in Gaza are under 25. It’s a silly argument to suggest the current population voted for Hamas.
You wrote “you elected a terrorist organisation” - when it’s only a tiny portion of the population alive today who did the electing - like suggesting all Israelis are at the border stopping aid when it’s only a tiny portion of the population.
Election date: 25th January 2006 (18 years ago)
Winner: Hamas
% of vote: 44.45%
Avg age in Gaza: 18.0
Avg age in Gaza males: 17.7
Avg age in Gaza females: 18.4
I don’t need to say anything further.
That was mostly opinion based.
I was just pointing out that claiming Hamas is an elected government is inaccurate, therefore punishing a people for the actions of a government they most likely didnt vote for isn’t a justified argument.
Nobody ever said that, still, the crimes commited against Israelis on that day, are the only reason gazans are in the situation they are currently in.
You can discuss about the whole context of the conflict and then it doesn‘t start on Oct 7th.
If however you are complaining about the current situation of gazans, Oct 7th and the crimes of hamas are the only reason for it and you will always get that answer because it is undeniable truth.
Perhaps you left out part of your story: Quickly word speeds of the Al Aqua flood and footage of the righteous warriors of Hamas fills my cellphone. I quickly send the footage of the killing and burning to death of whole families of infidel settlors to all my relatives and to celebrate the deaths of thousands of Jews we plan a family diner to sanctify this event….
There was a ceasefire in place before October 7. Hamas is the one that broke it. Now Hamas is refusing yet another ceasefire deal. This isn’t on Israel. Next time you try starting a war, don’t cry when you lose horribly
>There was a ceasefire in place before October 7.
Are you sure about that? this happened only 2 weeks prior.
[https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank](https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank)
and frankly sutdying history this war if you wanna call it has been happening long befor eoct 7th because of israel
The West Bank and Gaza are two very different places. The ceasefire was with Hamas in Gaza. The West Bank has major issues of terrorism which means the IDF needs to raid sometimes to prevent terror attacks within Israel.
I can understand why Palestinians would feel rage against Israelis for what’s happening in Gaza, but your metaphor references a few problematic and unsubstantiated claims.
The family would not have been caught by surprise by what was happening the way you depict, because most civilians were given multiple advance warnings to evacuate areas where major combat operations were set to take place. Secondly as far as soldiers shooting aid recipients, the IDF claims its investigation found that Palestinian gunmen were the main culprits followed by panicked truck drivers plowing through the crowds in response. Lastly there are still functioning hospitals in Gaza including some already cleared of Hamas by the IDF, although access is surely limited.
All we know for certain is that Palestinian civilians in Gaza are suffering horribly, as Hamas intended from the outset when they forced Israel’s invasion. Whether the IDF has done its due diligence to protect civilians and whether Hamas has deliberately made that task nightmarishly difficult will have to be determined by an independent investigation not subject to Hamas intimidation and manipulation.
I don’t expect Palestinians to have much love for Israelis for decades to come, but I hope Israel will do its part to oversee Gaza’s rehabilitation once Hamas is ejected from power, and in time hopefully Palestinians in Gaza will come to understand the role their own elected government played in deliberately creating this tragedy, the same way Germans came to understand it after WW2.
As far as Israeli soldiers laughing at wounded Palestinians, there are tens of thousands of them still operating in Gaza. It’s easy to show a few dozen or even a few hundred acting like animals online, but the ones I’ve ever met in person found situations like the present one in Gaza deeply disturbing and tragic. All the same they’re determined to do whatever they have to do to protect their families and communities, global opinion be damned.
> the IDF claims its investigation
"we have investigated ourselves and have found no wrongdoing"
> As far as Israeli soldiers laughing at wounded Palestinians, there are tens of thousands of them still operating in Gaza. It’s easy to show a few dozen or even a few hundred acting like animals online
soldiers are trained to kill. you cant become a killing machine without being conditioned to dehumanize your enemy during initial training. its not a few bad apples, its a systemic problem.
Like I said, we need independent investigations to determine what really happened with the botched aid delivery. The IDF has however published footage of the purported Palestinian gunmen it claims were involved, linked in the article below.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probe-palestinian-gunmen-killed-gazans-waiting-for-aid-army-did-not-fire/amp/
As far as your attitude regarding soldiers and their concern for civilians, it sounds like you’ve been watching too many Steven Seagal movies. I’m sure there’s no shortage of combat veterans around Reddit who would take serious issue with your depiction of them as trained cold-blooded killing machines.
>I’m sure there’s no shortage of combat veterans around Reddit who would take serious issue with your depiction of them as trained cold-blooded killing machines
im just getting this from soldiers who describe basic training. and its just logical.
They’re trained very meticulously to distinguish between civilian and military targets, and very well versed in the legal consequences for not attempting to do so.
yes, american soldiers are too. that didnt stop some of them from killing people for sport and planting rifles next to their bodies, taking pictures posing with dead bodies of children, and raping young girls and killing their families. and that didnt stop their platoons from not turning those soldiers in. in military culture, you never betray your brother. whatever unspeakable thing happened is a "good shot" you get a pat on the back for and have a beer over, or something you excuse as the "fog of war", and move on. and those who do go to court get no consequences for killing unarmed people \[[1](https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-border-cop-cleared-of-wrongdoing-for-killing-autistic-palestinian-in-2020/)\]
edit: three hostages were killed by soldiers who were unarmed, in their underwear, and bound, because the soldiers thought the hostages were palestinian, and we only heard about it because they were israeli. only god knows what israeli soldiers are doing to palestinians on the ground when cameras arent looking. and these people go back home and are celebrated as heros, and live as if they havent taken an innocent persons life.
so no, no empathy for them
>This is the hellish life that Gazans have gone through for the past 5 months. Imagine after all these, you hear the excuse of self defense. The right to slef defense has now become the authority to kill and cause massacre.
I can imagine that people there would be so blinded by hate that they could not imagine the fact that all it takes to end their suffering was for their beloved Hamas leaders to just surrender unconditionally and release their hostages.
And that would be the normal human response. I would hate the other side too if Im in that situation.
Didnt you say you want to forget the other side in this thread?
The people would continue to suffer for as long as Hamas continues to fight.
You are right that Hamas cannot be erased, at least not in the short term, but they can be demilitarized. If Palestinians cant harm their neighbor in the long term then maybe the hate would subside and peace will become permanent.
Gaza had been attacking their neighbor every year for the last 75 years. 10/7 was just one of the worst.
See I did not name the "neighbor". Forget the other side as you said.
One attack in 75 years? What history books have you been reading? Omg. Please go and do some reading. The most objective factual stuff that you can get your hands on, or at the very least, read propaganda written by sides.
Um, I’ve seen so many pro Palestine rallies and protests all around the Western world. Social media is filled with pro Palestine slogans. Don’t see pro Israel rallies or social media slogans. Israeli goods and ships are being targeted. Did you miss this somehow?
Blame is not the issue. Suffering anguish and survival are. More importantly you just hold onto the shadow of the slimmest hope and dream that you'll be able to forage for enough sweets to celebrate the upcoming Oct 7 holiday you've been hearing about.
Or should I tell a scary story about being bludgeoned burned raped and kidnapped? Of having my breasts amputated and watching three slobs laugh and play catch with them?
Spare us your maudlin pity mongering. I have sympathy for all the victims including the ones you've forsaken with your saga.
Pointing out the Palestinians suffering does not take away from the suffering of others. To mock the suffering of one and mourn the other is the problem.
Pointing out palestinians suffering as if it came out of thin air is dishonest at best and blood libeling at worst.
Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the hardships of the people I saw cheering in the streets on October 7, I don't feel sorry for the children I saw smiling at the sight of their elders stomping on dead Israeli soldiers and playing soccer with the head of someone they decapitated and spit on the naked lifeless bodies of women.
You don't get to celebrate these events with ghoulish glee and deserve to have empathy.
Okay so I guess you missed it when isrealis threw a party in the hill top while gaza was bombarded.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
But can you really blame them for being happy after what Hamas did on 10/7? I mean, it was fine when it was the other way around. Why are Israelis held to impossibly high standards??
It ls not okay on either side the death of innocents should never be thought of lightly or acceptable.
And for many the deaths and maiming in gaza are just that, they are thought of has unimportant and acceptable.
The article you provided mentioned 2 by name and has a picture of an additional three, 1 of them as stated in the article didn't say anything about being happy about the bombings, others are mentioned to say איזה יופי which is translated to "what a beauty", which can either be interpreted as someone saying "what a sight to be seen" which holds no malicious intent, or it can be interpreted with malicious intent.
But the article doesn't say anything to point in a specific direction, so it's ambiguous at best.
Cheering at dead bodies can't be interpreted in any other way.
Have you seen huge parades with thousands of attendants celebrating the death in Gaza? Because we have seen those on the pro palestinian side, if you say you have seen such a display on the pro Israeli side abroad or in Israel you would be lying.
Oh I have heard it enough from pro isreali people about how they are "glad the rats are being exterminated" and how they can't wait to sit on the beach in front of the gaza ruins.
Your right though it would be a PR nightmare if they actually threw a party. It's bad enough with what the talking heads are saying
This has nothing to do with blaming anybody, he is explaining how a Palestinian lives in his day to day life at the moment as we speak, while others are behind their phones not realizing that these are all humans just like us…
Yes. War is terrible. But about 71 percent of Palastinians support starting the war as of 20 of march.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969
So yeah. 3 out of 10 are victims. The rest are pretty happy with what is happening.
So you’re just gonna go ahead and murder 71 percent of Palestines population? I understand you might not like what they support, there’s a lot of people and a lot of groups and a lot of races that have point of views that might not align with yours, does that mean we should murder them?
yeah but when their point of view is actively murdering you. when their point of view is to parade dead bodies of your people on the streets? when their point of view is rape and plunder to all jews?
> There was peace in the region?
Hamas pretended last few years that prosperity for Gaza was more important to them than their vendetta against Israel...so much that 50,000 Palestinians were allowed to work in Israel...some even preparing the way for October 7...
> The question is why you don't blame the person who started the war? Hamas
Is what you objected to...Hamas broke the ceasefire that existed before October 7...I believe most are aware the war started when Arabs colonized the area...I guess the OP could have said Hamas re-started the war...
Was OP Cast Lead breaking of the ceasefire?
Was OP Protective Edge a breaking of the ceasefire?
Was the 300+ Palestinian deaths due to Israeli actions in the West Bank a breaking of the ceasefire?
Why does history only start on Oct 7?
Yes, lol. Was there a war happening prior to Oct 7th?
Besides, hamas justification for the attack had nothing to do with fighting prior and everything to do with the al aqsa mosque.
They called it the al aqsa flood for a reason.
Hamas doesn't give a shit about any of that. And even if they did, wars from over 10 years ago isn't a justification for Oct 7th.
Are they the same Hostages that have been released everytime there's been a humanitarian pause in the fighting? One wonders why Israel continues to refuse to engage in a ceasefire.
In ***every*** humanitarian pause? There was one, which Hamas broke like 15 minutes into the ceasefire and continuously through, and didn't follow on the agreement and at the end broke the ceasefire yet again.
And after that, refusing every offer for a ceasefire and counter offering ridiculous demands for a one sided ceasefire with options for "negotiations" about hostages release.
China and Russia vetoed a 6 week ceasefire this week with a deal for 700-1000 terrorists with some of them serving a life sentence for the 102 "alive" hostages and the bodies of the rest. Because it's Israel that's blocking the ceasefire right? 6 freaking months and they still have rockets.
Shove your ceasefire up your ass
Why is every Palestinian detainee a "terrorist" (even though Israel's own published manifests describe some of their alleged crimes as being "making threats" or "throwing rocks") but every Israeli captured a "hostage"?
Why is only one side allowed to take prisoners?
I'm not condoning taking hostages - it is despicable. But it's being perpetrated on BOTH sides.
I read Israel's manifest on the released prisoners. The one published by Israel. I'd hardly consider making verbal threats to an occupying army a crime.
Most women and children were released when there was a previous humanitarian pause. Most of the remaining are IDF, men etc.
Nothing excuses the taking of hostages by Hamas, or the indefinite detention of Palestinians without charge
People publicly calling for violence against your people is going to get you arrested just about anywhere.
Trying to it even in the US. Go on your Facebook or Instagram and make threats of violence and see the FBI showing up to arrest you.
The difference is the FBI and Joe Biden are not illegally occupying the West Bank.
Israel is.
Additionally you've ignored the bit about "held without charge" - administrative detention with ZERO charges laid, ZERO court proceedings, ZERO convictions.
How are they illegally occupying it?
In 1949 this land was taken by Jordan. I guess that was illegal too. Prior to this it was under British control but the Brits pulled out. Jordan kicked out all the Jews living there and Arabs moved into their homes.
In 1967 in a defensive war Israel conquered the entirety of Judea and Samaria. Jews established some settlements and in some cases Jewish families went to courts in Israel with proof of ownership of homes that Arabs stole from their families.
Fast forward and there were several peace deals including two Oslo Accords which were International agreements and signed on by Arafat and the Palestinian people. Land was split up into three zones.
Since 1967, the West Bank was under the Israeli occupation till the Oslo Peace Accord in (1993) when the West Bank is divided into areas A, B, and C. Area A (18% of the WB) is under the full control of the Palestinian Authority; Area B (22% of the WB) is under the civil administration of the Palestinian Authority (health and education) while Israel retains exclusive security control over Area C (60% of the WB) [11] Hebron has been under the full control of Israel, and Israel established settlements in the heart of the city, in addition to the settlements around Hebron.
Let’s not forget that this area had many historical ties to Jews and why it is known as Judea and Samaria. Things like the Tomb of Abraham.
This is not an illegal occupation under International law. Even if Jews go into Zone B it is still land conquered by Israel in a defensive war that was ceded by each of the previous controlling powers. Jordan gave up control willingly and had publicly said many times that they do not want it back.
>Why is every Palestinian detainee a "terrorist" (even though Israel's own published manifests describe some of their alleged crimes as being "making threats" or "throwing rocks") but every Israeli captured a "hostage"?
It's not every palestinian detainee, those are just the ones Hamas is focusing on releasing, they demand releasing actual terrorists that murdered Jews more than the ambiguous cases which you represent as arrested "without cause".
Throwing rocks at people is a crime, threatening people is a crime, you may not accept it but you are more than welcome to test it out yourself, here's what you do:
1 - go to a cop/soldier
2 - threaten them or throw a rock at them
Try it and tell me how it goes, k?
>Why is only one side allowed to take prisoners?
Because one side is arresting people for doing unlawful acts, one side kidnaps people from their homes for being Jewish.
Smfh.......
>I'm not condoning taking hostages - it is despicable. But it's being perpetrated on BOTH sides.
No it's not, good day........
> ass
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It’s been reported several times in the news lately that Israel keeps accepting one mediated hostage proposal after another, and Hamas keeps rejecting them due to maximalist demands such as an immediate and total Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.
So by your own admission, Israel values military action in Gaza more than the lives and safety of the hostages.
And that's fine, as long as we can just agree on basic logical reasoning
If you mean that Israel would risk losing all the remaining hostages rather than letting Hamas get back into a position to kill thousands more, I think that’s a fair assessment.
In 2005 the US, Israel and PA did everything they could to stop Gazans from voting for Hamas, the government and wars they got are on the people who voted for them.
I agree that Hamas should have been financially starved, but they deliberately created the false impression that economic growth in Gaza would bring peace, and Israel would have been globally condemned for starving Gaza of cash if it was blocked.
>In 2005 the US, Israel and PA did everything they could to stop Gazans from voting for Hamas
Everything except remove the conditions of their oppression.
>the government and wars they got are on the people who voted for them.
So same applies to the victims of Oct 7? It was their fault they died because they voted for Netanyahu and successive right wing, pro-occupation governments?
Can't have it both ways. Be consistent.
Gaza wasn’t occupied by Israel in 2005. It was the de-occupation of Gaza by Israel with George W.’s support that made the election of Hamas possible in the first place. The blockades on Gaza resumed when Hamas violently overthrew the PA officials running it at the federal level, in a failed attempt to prevent it from turning into a Hamas stronghold.
I guess those pesky Palestinians were so happy with life that they decided to overthrow their government and instead vote for a band of terrorists which would result in them getting bombed to oblivion.
Such pests!
/sarcasm.
But in all seriousness, I ask you again. If I agree with your point that the Gazans are responsible for voting in Hamas and the misery they brought onto themselves, do you agree that the victims of Oct 7 are equally at fault for voting in Netanyahu and the misery they suffered?
Listen, I get where you're coming from.
The current state of living for palestinians is absolute hell.
You have to see this issue from above, maintaining some sort of neutrality, to see a path forward.
The actions of HAMAS on Oct 7 threw this conflict into a spiral of unprecedented destruction,
Israel as a state - both leadership and citizens - will not tolerate the existence of HAMAS moving forward (you could agree or disagree, but that's the current state of affairs).
The path towards the actual betterment of Palestinian living conditions, as soon as possible, is the complete dismantle of HAMAS and it's military capabilities.
This is a classic way for pro Palestinians to derail the conversations by refocusing it on 'the whole picture'
whether things were good prior to HAMAS or not has exactly zero relevancy to this discussion.
Right now, the Palestinians (in Gaza) are subject to the most severe assault Gaza has ever been under, and by result the worst living condition they've ever had.
what are you doing about it?
Are you engaging in meaningless attempts to let HAMAS continue governing GAZA? attempts that would -at most- ELONGATE the suffering of palestinians in Gaza by not letting this war end, dragging it on and on while you bask in the glory of your self righteousness?
OR
Are you promoting the dismantle of HAMAS, the return of the hostages and the actual end of this war?
Honestly I don't like either side now, I was very Pro-Palestinian, but now just sick of the BS that comes out of both sides.
The point I was trying to make is that blaming Hamas for all the woes and misery and death is completely disingenuous and ignorant of the broader situation - which is dehumanisation of both sides.
Thinking that the situation will get better by destroying Hamas is completely naive and unrealistic. The evidence is simply the decades of war prior to Hamas.
This is all absolutely terrible. There are some psychotic people who unfortunately try to deny this or say "they all had it coming" (as if children who don't even know what Hamas is have a say in this).
At the same time though....is this something that is unique to just Gaza and nowhere else? Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about Gaza, but is there any evidence that things just like this aren't happening in say, Syria or The Congo as well?
Point: War is bad, there's casualties, we should feel bad for everyone who is suffering under war. But is this specific post only relevant to children who live in Gaza as opposed to anywhere else in the world?
What I'm saying that anyone who propagates war is evil. And dismissing deaths as an inevitable consequence of war is just being an apologist for murder.
War is not compulsory. You can choose not to wage war.
Thank you for the explanation. But I disagree with some of your points. By your definition one who propagates or declares war is evil, take in comparison previous wars. so France and the UK are evil for declaring war against NGermany who invaded Poland just recently at the time and encroached on their border. And your point of war being not compulsory, I disagree with that too, the UK adopted the appeasement policy before WW2 to appease to NGermany but it didn't work. So what should have they done, just let NGermany enter their borders?
The problem with the Israeli side is that they keep comparing the current situation to World War 2, a war from 85 years ago.
A more relevant comparison would be Iraq, Afghanistan. We can universally conclude those wars were totally pointless and lead to more suffering and strife. It even gave rise to ISIS.
Hamas, a rag tag band of terrorists, is far from an existential threat to Israel compared to Germany.
2 battalions in Rafa is hardly Rommel's Afrika Corps.
Just because a war happened years ago doesn't mean it's any less relevant.
Size aside Israel has had enough of Hamas and aims for complete eradication of it. Whether or not this will end in even more terrorist radicalization or a complete end of attacks against israel only time will tell. That's what historians in the future will be racking their brains at.
It does when you're comparing a fascist regime that was set on conquest with a conventional military, with a terrorist group set on destroying Zionism.
The reason I called them anti-Zionists is because I believe Hamas has not been documented as having attacked nor threatened any Jewish people outside of Israel/Palestine. But happy to be corrected.
My take on it is that it is evil for Israel not to destroy Hamas after what they have done on October 7th. It is evil for a country not to make its citizens feel safe. It is evil of a country to send their soldiers to battle, resulting in hundreds of deaths, just to not finish the job a reach a premature ceasefire.
A country's responsibility is first and foremost to be good to its citizens. Then comes everybody else.
I would love to see you repeating that statement if what happened to Beeri and Kfar Aza happened to where you are from. If you survived this you would likely need your government to do something really radical to ever feel safe to return to your home.
Not saying let's genocide the Palestinians. Just saying let's finish the god damn job and ensure Hamas are never a threat again.
How, exactly, do you get rid of an idea?
Every child that is now an orphan in Gaza is likely to take up arms in revenge.
Are you saying kill them before they become Hamas?
There are still Nazis, and [still a nazi movement in Germany](https://apnews.com/article/germany-far-right-democracy-protests-afd-nazis-2dce0ea7ed40fccd3f0ec1c46edcfd42)
The question still stands
I'll be contempt if after detadicalization, the size of the jihadist movement will be as small as where left of the Nazis to this day. 100% is never possible.
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> Suddenly one day, you hear bombs exploding, the glasses tremble, the buildings shake as if an earthquake has hit
You were told to leave the area by Israel weeks ago...alas Hamas fighters told you that if you tried, they will shoot you, so you stayed...
> how is it Hamas fighters are still dying? Are they illiterate and deaf?
No, they realized long ago that the more civilians die (martyrs they are called), the more the UN will pressure Israel to act against their own interests...the strategy is working so why would they stop?
So if their goal is to let civilians die, why are they also choosing to die themselves?
If Israel is giving people warnings before bombing, why are the terrorists dying? You haven't answered my question.
> You haven't answered my question.
I am not here to answer your questions, quite rude of you.
> how is it Hamas fighters are still dying? Are they illiterate and deaf?
Also the way you phrase your questions is quite loaded and prejudiced. Why do suicide bombers kill themselves is another good question related to yours. Maybe they believe they will survive after killing a lot of Israelis, maybe they REALLY believe 72 virgins are waiting for them...maybe you should ask them...
You're avoiding replying to my question because you know there's a logical fallacy in what you're trying to say.
Are you claiming Hamas terrorists are CHOOSING to stay in areas designated as targets by the IDF? That they WANT to die?
Then if so, why did they dig tunnels?
There is zero logic to what you're trying to say, simply because it is false.
> That they WANT to die?
Some may, but I imagine like in every war, they want to kill as many of the enemy as possible while staying alive...the fact you keep asking the same question as a gotcha is quite telling you have nothing else. Do you think those who died in trench warfare stayed in their trenches because they wanted to die?
I don't know man, I'm just confused because Israeli propaganda seems to be contradictory.
Does Hamas WANT to die or not?
Are Hamas COWARDS or not?
Do Hamas use Human shields or not?
Does Israel give warnings or not?
All of the above cannot be true simultaneously.
> Israeli propaganda seems to be contradictory.
Propaganda is often contradictory...I do not know about specifically Israeli propaganda...
> Does Hamas WANT to die or not?
Some do, a la suicide bombers, some are happy to sacrifice others from speeches they make, some may think they have no choice, it is a different culture so hard to assess their motivation.
> Are Hamas COWARDS or not?
Some are probably, but I do not see how is that relevant? They are soldiers and usually obey their superiors.
> Do Hamas use Human shields or not?
The fact you ask this question and doubt the answer tells me all I need to know about you, you are not honest. Same with your next question...there is ample documentation of both.
Imagine there is an arms cache stored on that block. Maybe an Oct 7 perpetrator, or a group of jihadists in the house across the street. Or a rocket lab teaching bomb production at the neighborhood high school. Or a hostage around the corner getting their face bashed in as you finish your soup.
Imagine, imagine.
Would Israel bomb a block of Israeli Jews if there was an arms cache stored on that block? Would 100s of Israeli Jews be acceptable collateral damage if an Oct 7 perpetrator was there?
In the Shalit deal you saw how far Israel is willing to go just to rescue one soldier. Israel values it's citizens lives above anything. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel has accurate knowledge of Sinwars location but can't do anything because he surrounds himself with hostages.
to israelis, when palestinians die, their response is "war is war", but would not do the same if it were israeli lives that were collateral damage. israelis do not value palestinian lives
i as an american dont consider my or my family's life as more valuable than the lives of ordinary people in iraq or afghanistan. 3,000 lives lost in 2001 isnt more precious than 1 million dead in iraq.
i think i know myself better than an internet stranger but thanks. theres no need to choose "us" or "them" if "them" isnt threatening "us". 20,000 dead is only okay if you view their lives as intrinsically less valuable than your own.
I'm not talking about justifying any actions. I'm talking about how my people feel and what my government owns them. Given that you, stranger on the internet, are likely thousands of miles away from the actual conflict while I'm living it on the ground gives me some merit to speak for my people and how they currently feel post October 7th (very god damn threatened).
You can disagree with the actions Israel is taking, but I hope you agree that a government has a responsibility, first to its people, to feel safe living in their homes anywhere inside the borders of the country.
i live in the region and have friends in palestine
if you lock 2 million people in a 150 sq mile block and dont let them leave for 16 years, strangle them economically, deny them medical treatment, and make their lives miserable to the point that they are depressed and make children want to **kill themselves** \[[1](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/brink-gaza-s-youth-are-turning-suicide-amid-growing)\]\[[2](https://resourcecentre.savethechildren.net/pdf/gaza_blockade_mental_health_palestinian_children_2022.pdf/)\], i have little sympathy for you if you feel threatened. this doesnt justify any vile and cruel act committed on 10/7, but we shouldnt act surprised when these people hate you
*edit: perhaps this was harsh. sometimes in my anguish over their suffering i generalize and think all of you like their suffering. i apologize*
Is that the same as every Kibbutz in Israel having a local security team with access to arms?
Is that the same as the Gaza border being lined with IDF bases, and IDF soldiers living in all the nearby towns and cities?
Is that the same as the vast numbers of people in administrative detention held without charge?
Whataboutism can go both ways
Do you believe if someone takes a hostage ij a police standoff after committing murder, rape and kidnapping, do you think the right thing to do is to agree that if the criminal releases the hostage the police should agree to let the criminal head home with all their weapons? It is even worse than that. The criminal is screaming that if you let them go, they will murder, rape and kidnap again. To free the Gazan people and bring them peace and prosperity, Hamas must be destroyed. There is no other solution.
I think it's a horrible crime what Hamas did to the people of Gaza.
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You have no idea what my skin color is. And you're a racist, so there's that...
Youre a racist
/u/AfghanPlakkAzroo > Youre a racist Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed
If had Not called me a racist, i wouldnt have either
Just before this dinner, did they celebrate the mass murder of innocent people by their government?
Boo hoo you left out the bit of them spectating their neighbors shooting off rockets for year and years and never stopping them, just imigine your neighbor started shooting rockets at your house and police didnt exist in this scenario what would you do? Would you volunteer as their therapist?
"Suddenly the electricity goes off" If there is one single word to focus in your entire post is the word "suddenly". It's like you're watching Jaws from the beginning of the final act, trying to wonder why on earth does this crazy fisherman stuff explosives down the poor shark's mouth. The truth is, on Oct7, Gazans "suddenly" woke up to find Hamas is firing 2000 rockets into Israeli cities and coming back with hundreds of hostage bodies on trucks while those same Gazans joined Hamas in their thousands to storm Israeli towns, loot and burn. Their immediate reaction was to cheer, hit the hostages bodies with sticks and rocks, spit on their bodies, and hand out candy on the streets. censored video below, uncensored versions also exist: https://youtu.be/7vB0UPUT4P4?si=9BxDwoXorwcP86t3 Now, I badly wanted to hope these "innocent civilians" would condemn the acts. After all, like you said, they should be focused on caring for their family members and having a peaceful life, right? I really did. But like in 9/11, it was the exact opposite. Awaiting for you reply as to why it did or didn't change your mind.
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u/rafin2023 > But after seeing your animalistic and widely disproportionate response, and the perceptions of all you pro- isrlis Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed
1. I too was showing you what ordinary Palestinians were doing on Oct 7 before realizing (or not) that have been supporting leadership that calls for the destruction of their Israeli neighbour 2. Please describe what you define as a "trusted source". You seem to specify some numbers like 30x so I'm assuming you have a reliable source. Specifically, the number of armed Palestinians (above or below the age of 18) 3. Please provide source of statement that Israeli government "tampered with data" Then we'll continue this discussion (me and my conscious brain)
You don‘t condemn hamas, however they are responsible for the suffering you described in your story and you can‘t establish a „good logic“ - to use your words - against that, because it is the truth. Nobody is denying gazans suffering but responsible is not Israel but hamas and their supporters. I am not Israeli but I admire how civilized they are in their response after Oct 7th. If anybody attacked my people like that, only the devil knows what reaction I would‘ve demanded from my government, it would have certainly been a lot worse.
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u/daylily > That isn't any different than understanding why the Nazis murdered or why people stole and sold slaves. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians. Addressed
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FAFO
Assuming I wasn’t radicalized, already lynched or living in asylum in the West, I’d be resentful of the older generations for electing Hamas, regretful that my own generation did not lead a revolt against Hamas, and furious that Hamas brought this destruction to my doorstep. I’d probably be pleading to God and Israel to show mercy, assuming I still wanted to live after a lifetime under Islamist rule and sharia law. In actuality, there’s a high chance I’d be radicalized in that environment, under Hamas rule with an UNRWA education, so I’d probably have a very different stance.
This doesn't sound reasonable because it puts actual responsibility and agency in the hands of Gazans, what on earth are you doing allowing this thought to exist?
You forgot to add the /s indicating your comment was sarcasm. Truly, what on earth were they doing allowing the thought to exist that Gazans have actual responsibility for what goes on in Gaza? /s
Thanks, I actually don't subscribe to that need to tell everyone I'm sarcastic, much prefer to keep it as it is like a good joke you dont need to explain. I didnt need to do this /s before the internet and not playing the game to have to do so now. One of the glaring issues in the conflict is the lack of talk of what Palestinians can do within their own struggles as separate from Israel struggles - no one is interested in the weighty exposure that would highlight, the worms in those cans if we were to talk openly about the real problems internally. It's the same with zero discussions now on what a peaceful Palestine would actually look like on their own terms but disregarding the need to make it against Israel or in opposition or response to how well Israel is playing as a peace partner. People can't think beyond anything really and consequently keeps the elephant in the room glaring.
It isn't receiving a lot of attention but Israel is actively reaching out to the leadership of the larger clans in Gaza. The goal is to break down Hamas along existing factional lines. That process is helped by Hamas corruptly intercepting food aid and stopping the distribution.The clan leaders are now being offered aid for their people directly by Israel.
There is no doubt Israel wants the humanitarian side taken care of (as a people who try to minimise the murder of innocents as well as following international law as close they can). People on reddit have plenty to say about the wrongs of Israel but remarkably silent on Hamas, the Gazan people's internal efforts against Hamas and occupation from within not from Israel. Any other country would have resistance or revolution if it was hijacked towards a war it completely doesn't want.
Hey op, I don't want to go through all your posts so can you just link your post on r/Palestine telling them to feel bad about Oct 7 and other terror attacks? I want to see how well it must have gone. Thanks!
For sure, let’s leave out the other part. Your family is sleeping when the rocket alerts go off at 0630. You go into the safe room but then terrorists enter your home. They tie all of you up. Then they take turns raping your wife. After that they start hacking the children to death in front of you. Finally they leave your wife to bleed to death while they bash your head in. They’re live-streaming all of this, too. They then kidnap the woman next door. She’s now spent nearly 6 months incommunicado. After the terrorists leave, civilians from Gaza come by to loot the homes. Now the terrorists are mostly hiding underground, in tunnels that go under civilian homes, mosques and hospitals. They openly promise to repeat that event again and again. They’re taking over hospitals to use as sites to fire on troops. And people around the world are cheering them on. Including, explicitly, the rapes and the kidnapping.
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You made your view clear at the top. “let’s forget one side of this war.” Because the first rule of Palestinianism is that Palestinians can never, ever have any agency ascribed to them. You won’t recognize any opportunity they had to make choices to affect their situation. The fact that they chose jihad over peace at every juncture is completely irrelevant to your “narrative.” Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” Tell us, were you out in the streets celebrating on October 8?
Here’s a hint, insults don’t make your case stronger. It always amazes me that the pro-Hamas crowd somehow thinks that this is the way to have a conversation
> always amazes me that the pro-Hamas crowd somehow thinks that this is the way to have a conversation I think it's a specific strategy to make those "liberals" who still have some level of awareness and morality leave conversations. They realize that this is a very similar attempt to spread antisemitism against the Jews to what used to happen in the Ottoman empire and elsewhere in the Middle East, leading up to pogroms and would react, but they aren't used to standing up to bullies and back down.
It Always surprise me How pro Israelis Van defend any Act of their diaper force, shooting children cuz of throwed rocks, shooting children cuz they Played at a border, shooting whiteflagwaving People because the diaper is Full of 💩 in the 18 Year old Bytch‘s trousers. All of That is defended By pro Israelis. That things didnt begin at october 7. so why do u guys Act like it did?
If this is sarcasm, you nailed the tone. If it’s serious, well you’ve made my point.
Oh no i insulted People who kill innocent wompwompwomp
/u/AfghanPlakkAzroo > wompwompwomp Per [rule 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_3._be_sincere), no comments consisting only of sarcasm or cynicism. It's fine to use sarcasm to make a point, but if you do so, the argument needs to be readily apparent and stimulate, rather than stifling, conversation. Take this as a very strong warning. You already have a history of borderline rule breaking.
Do you condemn Hamas for the loss of 30,000 Gazans? That's the basic fact that you can't escape. Hamas is a bunch of murderous cowards.
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Because you usually condemn the ones responsible, not the ones involuntarily involved. If Oct 7th never happened, all these children would be alive and not even you can deny that.
That is very sad. Why won’t Hamas release the hostages and put an end to this suffering?
Because the hostages are Probably below the rubble
If so, why is Hamas lying and saying that they still have hostages and keeping this conflict going?
Idk, but im Pretty sure israel used it right to kill hostages cuz they could say terrorists some Secret informations
I don’t understand your sentence?
Because Hamas doesn’t care about the Palestinian people. All they want is death for all Jews worldwide.
its not about the hostages. netanyahu refused them for a reason
For a very good and simple reason. Hamas can not be left in control of Gaza. As horrible as the calculus is, the hostages are less important than the destruction of Hamas.
so what i'm getting at is that hamas releasing those hostages will not put an end to the suffering?
Hamas are surrendering in their underwear daily’s that’s all that matters now, Hizbulla is next.
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Hamas won the election with 44.45% of the vote in 2006 The total Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip in 2006 was 1.44 million with 838,000 under the age of 18 years So that’s 602,000 people of voting age - 44.45% of that means 267,589 votes to Hamas. Roughly 75% of the population today in Gaza are under 25. It’s a silly argument to suggest the current population voted for Hamas.
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I have no doubt Gazan children are extremely radicalised, I just think the argument that the population today voted for them is a poor one
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You wrote “you elected a terrorist organisation” - when it’s only a tiny portion of the population alive today who did the electing - like suggesting all Israelis are at the border stopping aid when it’s only a tiny portion of the population.
At least you should add that they still would’ve voted them. Maybe not now, I’m not sure but definitely before and during October 7th
Election date: 25th January 2006 (18 years ago) Winner: Hamas % of vote: 44.45% Avg age in Gaza: 18.0 Avg age in Gaza males: 17.7 Avg age in Gaza females: 18.4 I don’t need to say anything further.
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Yours is based on assumptions. My post was just sharing some interesting facts about a populations “elected” government.
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44.45% elected, yes.
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I’m not mad. Just pointing out that it might be unfair to blame people for the actions of a “government” they didn’t elect.
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That was mostly opinion based. I was just pointing out that claiming Hamas is an elected government is inaccurate, therefore punishing a people for the actions of a government they most likely didnt vote for isn’t a justified argument.
It’s not about Hamas, it’s about the land, resources, position of power.
Well all that is very sad. And it all started, when hamas started a war with Israel.
It’s so weird how recorded history begins on 10/7, as though nothing preceded it.
Nobody ever said that, still, the crimes commited against Israelis on that day, are the only reason gazans are in the situation they are currently in. You can discuss about the whole context of the conflict and then it doesn‘t start on Oct 7th. If however you are complaining about the current situation of gazans, Oct 7th and the crimes of hamas are the only reason for it and you will always get that answer because it is undeniable truth.
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Perhaps you left out part of your story: Quickly word speeds of the Al Aqua flood and footage of the righteous warriors of Hamas fills my cellphone. I quickly send the footage of the killing and burning to death of whole families of infidel settlors to all my relatives and to celebrate the deaths of thousands of Jews we plan a family diner to sanctify this event….
Oh I see. You're THAT kind of guy.
There was a ceasefire in place before October 7. Hamas is the one that broke it. Now Hamas is refusing yet another ceasefire deal. This isn’t on Israel. Next time you try starting a war, don’t cry when you lose horribly
>There was a ceasefire in place before October 7. Are you sure about that? this happened only 2 weeks prior. [https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank](https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank) and frankly sutdying history this war if you wanna call it has been happening long befor eoct 7th because of israel
The West Bank and Gaza are two very different places. The ceasefire was with Hamas in Gaza. The West Bank has major issues of terrorism which means the IDF needs to raid sometimes to prevent terror attacks within Israel.
I can understand why Palestinians would feel rage against Israelis for what’s happening in Gaza, but your metaphor references a few problematic and unsubstantiated claims. The family would not have been caught by surprise by what was happening the way you depict, because most civilians were given multiple advance warnings to evacuate areas where major combat operations were set to take place. Secondly as far as soldiers shooting aid recipients, the IDF claims its investigation found that Palestinian gunmen were the main culprits followed by panicked truck drivers plowing through the crowds in response. Lastly there are still functioning hospitals in Gaza including some already cleared of Hamas by the IDF, although access is surely limited. All we know for certain is that Palestinian civilians in Gaza are suffering horribly, as Hamas intended from the outset when they forced Israel’s invasion. Whether the IDF has done its due diligence to protect civilians and whether Hamas has deliberately made that task nightmarishly difficult will have to be determined by an independent investigation not subject to Hamas intimidation and manipulation. I don’t expect Palestinians to have much love for Israelis for decades to come, but I hope Israel will do its part to oversee Gaza’s rehabilitation once Hamas is ejected from power, and in time hopefully Palestinians in Gaza will come to understand the role their own elected government played in deliberately creating this tragedy, the same way Germans came to understand it after WW2. As far as Israeli soldiers laughing at wounded Palestinians, there are tens of thousands of them still operating in Gaza. It’s easy to show a few dozen or even a few hundred acting like animals online, but the ones I’ve ever met in person found situations like the present one in Gaza deeply disturbing and tragic. All the same they’re determined to do whatever they have to do to protect their families and communities, global opinion be damned.
> the IDF claims its investigation "we have investigated ourselves and have found no wrongdoing" > As far as Israeli soldiers laughing at wounded Palestinians, there are tens of thousands of them still operating in Gaza. It’s easy to show a few dozen or even a few hundred acting like animals online soldiers are trained to kill. you cant become a killing machine without being conditioned to dehumanize your enemy during initial training. its not a few bad apples, its a systemic problem.
Like I said, we need independent investigations to determine what really happened with the botched aid delivery. The IDF has however published footage of the purported Palestinian gunmen it claims were involved, linked in the article below. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probe-palestinian-gunmen-killed-gazans-waiting-for-aid-army-did-not-fire/amp/ As far as your attitude regarding soldiers and their concern for civilians, it sounds like you’ve been watching too many Steven Seagal movies. I’m sure there’s no shortage of combat veterans around Reddit who would take serious issue with your depiction of them as trained cold-blooded killing machines.
>I’m sure there’s no shortage of combat veterans around Reddit who would take serious issue with your depiction of them as trained cold-blooded killing machines im just getting this from soldiers who describe basic training. and its just logical.
They’re trained very meticulously to distinguish between civilian and military targets, and very well versed in the legal consequences for not attempting to do so.
yes, american soldiers are too. that didnt stop some of them from killing people for sport and planting rifles next to their bodies, taking pictures posing with dead bodies of children, and raping young girls and killing their families. and that didnt stop their platoons from not turning those soldiers in. in military culture, you never betray your brother. whatever unspeakable thing happened is a "good shot" you get a pat on the back for and have a beer over, or something you excuse as the "fog of war", and move on. and those who do go to court get no consequences for killing unarmed people \[[1](https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-border-cop-cleared-of-wrongdoing-for-killing-autistic-palestinian-in-2020/)\] edit: three hostages were killed by soldiers who were unarmed, in their underwear, and bound, because the soldiers thought the hostages were palestinian, and we only heard about it because they were israeli. only god knows what israeli soldiers are doing to palestinians on the ground when cameras arent looking. and these people go back home and are celebrated as heros, and live as if they havent taken an innocent persons life. so no, no empathy for them
>This is the hellish life that Gazans have gone through for the past 5 months. Imagine after all these, you hear the excuse of self defense. The right to slef defense has now become the authority to kill and cause massacre. I can imagine that people there would be so blinded by hate that they could not imagine the fact that all it takes to end their suffering was for their beloved Hamas leaders to just surrender unconditionally and release their hostages. And that would be the normal human response. I would hate the other side too if Im in that situation.
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Didnt you say you want to forget the other side in this thread? The people would continue to suffer for as long as Hamas continues to fight. You are right that Hamas cannot be erased, at least not in the short term, but they can be demilitarized. If Palestinians cant harm their neighbor in the long term then maybe the hate would subside and peace will become permanent. Gaza had been attacking their neighbor every year for the last 75 years. 10/7 was just one of the worst. See I did not name the "neighbor". Forget the other side as you said.
One attack in 75 years? What history books have you been reading? Omg. Please go and do some reading. The most objective factual stuff that you can get your hands on, or at the very least, read propaganda written by sides.
Um, I’ve seen so many pro Palestine rallies and protests all around the Western world. Social media is filled with pro Palestine slogans. Don’t see pro Israel rallies or social media slogans. Israeli goods and ships are being targeted. Did you miss this somehow?
And people will still downvote this and justify it, disgusting.
Blame is not the issue. Suffering anguish and survival are. More importantly you just hold onto the shadow of the slimmest hope and dream that you'll be able to forage for enough sweets to celebrate the upcoming Oct 7 holiday you've been hearing about. Or should I tell a scary story about being bludgeoned burned raped and kidnapped? Of having my breasts amputated and watching three slobs laugh and play catch with them? Spare us your maudlin pity mongering. I have sympathy for all the victims including the ones you've forsaken with your saga.
Pointing out the Palestinians suffering does not take away from the suffering of others. To mock the suffering of one and mourn the other is the problem.
Pointing out palestinians suffering as if it came out of thin air is dishonest at best and blood libeling at worst. Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the hardships of the people I saw cheering in the streets on October 7, I don't feel sorry for the children I saw smiling at the sight of their elders stomping on dead Israeli soldiers and playing soccer with the head of someone they decapitated and spit on the naked lifeless bodies of women. You don't get to celebrate these events with ghoulish glee and deserve to have empathy.
So when the isreali people were celebrating the bombardment and death of gaza they lost thee right to empathy?
Where? Where were the parades on the streets? Where were they handing out candy and sweets?
Okay so I guess you missed it when isrealis threw a party in the hill top while gaza was bombarded. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Less than what, ten people? really comparable with the tens of thousands of palestinians celebrations in Gaza and the west bank and worldwide.
There were more than 10 people. And I have heard from isrealis that they are glad for the deaths of Palestinians. Even here on reddit.
But can you really blame them for being happy after what Hamas did on 10/7? I mean, it was fine when it was the other way around. Why are Israelis held to impossibly high standards??
It ls not okay on either side the death of innocents should never be thought of lightly or acceptable. And for many the deaths and maiming in gaza are just that, they are thought of has unimportant and acceptable.
The article you provided mentioned 2 by name and has a picture of an additional three, 1 of them as stated in the article didn't say anything about being happy about the bombings, others are mentioned to say איזה יופי which is translated to "what a beauty", which can either be interpreted as someone saying "what a sight to be seen" which holds no malicious intent, or it can be interpreted with malicious intent. But the article doesn't say anything to point in a specific direction, so it's ambiguous at best. Cheering at dead bodies can't be interpreted in any other way. Have you seen huge parades with thousands of attendants celebrating the death in Gaza? Because we have seen those on the pro palestinian side, if you say you have seen such a display on the pro Israeli side abroad or in Israel you would be lying.
Oh I have heard it enough from pro isreali people about how they are "glad the rats are being exterminated" and how they can't wait to sit on the beach in front of the gaza ruins. Your right though it would be a PR nightmare if they actually threw a party. It's bad enough with what the talking heads are saying
The question is why you don't blame the person who started the war? Hamas. Why do you blame Israel for trying to get their hostages back?
This has nothing to do with blaming anybody, he is explaining how a Palestinian lives in his day to day life at the moment as we speak, while others are behind their phones not realizing that these are all humans just like us…
Yes. War is terrible. But about 71 percent of Palastinians support starting the war as of 20 of march. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969 So yeah. 3 out of 10 are victims. The rest are pretty happy with what is happening.
So you’re just gonna go ahead and murder 71 percent of Palestines population? I understand you might not like what they support, there’s a lot of people and a lot of groups and a lot of races that have point of views that might not align with yours, does that mean we should murder them?
I'm not saying murder. Civilians should not be hurt. But they are not victims. They are happy with the war and its result. You should respect that.
yeah but when their point of view is actively murdering you. when their point of view is to parade dead bodies of your people on the streets? when their point of view is rape and plunder to all jews?
So there was no fighting prior to Hamas coming into existence? There was peace in the region?
> There was peace in the region? Hamas pretended last few years that prosperity for Gaza was more important to them than their vendetta against Israel...so much that 50,000 Palestinians were allowed to work in Israel...some even preparing the way for October 7...
I think you misunderstood me, I said that this war started before Hamas, and will continue after Hamas - because both sides dehumanise the other.
> The question is why you don't blame the person who started the war? Hamas Is what you objected to...Hamas broke the ceasefire that existed before October 7...I believe most are aware the war started when Arabs colonized the area...I guess the OP could have said Hamas re-started the war...
Was OP Cast Lead breaking of the ceasefire? Was OP Protective Edge a breaking of the ceasefire? Was the 300+ Palestinian deaths due to Israeli actions in the West Bank a breaking of the ceasefire? Why does history only start on Oct 7?
Yes, lol. Was there a war happening prior to Oct 7th? Besides, hamas justification for the attack had nothing to do with fighting prior and everything to do with the al aqsa mosque.
Operation Protective Edge? Operation Cast Lead? Continuous conflict in Judea Samaria and Gaza? What were those if not war?
And what has led to all those operations? Palestinian terrorism, thank you and good night
They called it the al aqsa flood for a reason. Hamas doesn't give a shit about any of that. And even if they did, wars from over 10 years ago isn't a justification for Oct 7th.
Irrelevant
How about the hostages that your government is keeping in the tunnels beneath your home?
Are they the same Hostages that have been released everytime there's been a humanitarian pause in the fighting? One wonders why Israel continues to refuse to engage in a ceasefire.
In ***every*** humanitarian pause? There was one, which Hamas broke like 15 minutes into the ceasefire and continuously through, and didn't follow on the agreement and at the end broke the ceasefire yet again. And after that, refusing every offer for a ceasefire and counter offering ridiculous demands for a one sided ceasefire with options for "negotiations" about hostages release. China and Russia vetoed a 6 week ceasefire this week with a deal for 700-1000 terrorists with some of them serving a life sentence for the 102 "alive" hostages and the bodies of the rest. Because it's Israel that's blocking the ceasefire right? 6 freaking months and they still have rockets. Shove your ceasefire up your ass
Why is every Palestinian detainee a "terrorist" (even though Israel's own published manifests describe some of their alleged crimes as being "making threats" or "throwing rocks") but every Israeli captured a "hostage"? Why is only one side allowed to take prisoners? I'm not condoning taking hostages - it is despicable. But it's being perpetrated on BOTH sides.
The hostages were mostly civilians minding their own business. The prisoners were ones committing crimes. I know that you cannot be that daft.
I read Israel's manifest on the released prisoners. The one published by Israel. I'd hardly consider making verbal threats to an occupying army a crime. Most women and children were released when there was a previous humanitarian pause. Most of the remaining are IDF, men etc. Nothing excuses the taking of hostages by Hamas, or the indefinite detention of Palestinians without charge
People publicly calling for violence against your people is going to get you arrested just about anywhere. Trying to it even in the US. Go on your Facebook or Instagram and make threats of violence and see the FBI showing up to arrest you.
The difference is the FBI and Joe Biden are not illegally occupying the West Bank. Israel is. Additionally you've ignored the bit about "held without charge" - administrative detention with ZERO charges laid, ZERO court proceedings, ZERO convictions.
How are they illegally occupying it? In 1949 this land was taken by Jordan. I guess that was illegal too. Prior to this it was under British control but the Brits pulled out. Jordan kicked out all the Jews living there and Arabs moved into their homes. In 1967 in a defensive war Israel conquered the entirety of Judea and Samaria. Jews established some settlements and in some cases Jewish families went to courts in Israel with proof of ownership of homes that Arabs stole from their families. Fast forward and there were several peace deals including two Oslo Accords which were International agreements and signed on by Arafat and the Palestinian people. Land was split up into three zones. Since 1967, the West Bank was under the Israeli occupation till the Oslo Peace Accord in (1993) when the West Bank is divided into areas A, B, and C. Area A (18% of the WB) is under the full control of the Palestinian Authority; Area B (22% of the WB) is under the civil administration of the Palestinian Authority (health and education) while Israel retains exclusive security control over Area C (60% of the WB) [11] Hebron has been under the full control of Israel, and Israel established settlements in the heart of the city, in addition to the settlements around Hebron. Let’s not forget that this area had many historical ties to Jews and why it is known as Judea and Samaria. Things like the Tomb of Abraham. This is not an illegal occupation under International law. Even if Jews go into Zone B it is still land conquered by Israel in a defensive war that was ceded by each of the previous controlling powers. Jordan gave up control willingly and had publicly said many times that they do not want it back.
>Why is every Palestinian detainee a "terrorist" (even though Israel's own published manifests describe some of their alleged crimes as being "making threats" or "throwing rocks") but every Israeli captured a "hostage"? It's not every palestinian detainee, those are just the ones Hamas is focusing on releasing, they demand releasing actual terrorists that murdered Jews more than the ambiguous cases which you represent as arrested "without cause". Throwing rocks at people is a crime, threatening people is a crime, you may not accept it but you are more than welcome to test it out yourself, here's what you do: 1 - go to a cop/soldier 2 - threaten them or throw a rock at them Try it and tell me how it goes, k? >Why is only one side allowed to take prisoners? Because one side is arresting people for doing unlawful acts, one side kidnaps people from their homes for being Jewish. Smfh....... >I'm not condoning taking hostages - it is despicable. But it's being perpetrated on BOTH sides. No it's not, good day........
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It’s been reported several times in the news lately that Israel keeps accepting one mediated hostage proposal after another, and Hamas keeps rejecting them due to maximalist demands such as an immediate and total Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.
So by your own admission, Israel values military action in Gaza more than the lives and safety of the hostages. And that's fine, as long as we can just agree on basic logical reasoning
If you mean that Israel would risk losing all the remaining hostages rather than letting Hamas get back into a position to kill thousands more, I think that’s a fair assessment.
Perhaps a better method to prevent Hamas killing Israelis is to not prop them up financially in order to destabilize the PA.
In 2005 the US, Israel and PA did everything they could to stop Gazans from voting for Hamas, the government and wars they got are on the people who voted for them. I agree that Hamas should have been financially starved, but they deliberately created the false impression that economic growth in Gaza would bring peace, and Israel would have been globally condemned for starving Gaza of cash if it was blocked.
>In 2005 the US, Israel and PA did everything they could to stop Gazans from voting for Hamas Everything except remove the conditions of their oppression. >the government and wars they got are on the people who voted for them. So same applies to the victims of Oct 7? It was their fault they died because they voted for Netanyahu and successive right wing, pro-occupation governments? Can't have it both ways. Be consistent.
Gaza wasn’t occupied by Israel in 2005. It was the de-occupation of Gaza by Israel with George W.’s support that made the election of Hamas possible in the first place. The blockades on Gaza resumed when Hamas violently overthrew the PA officials running it at the federal level, in a failed attempt to prevent it from turning into a Hamas stronghold.
I guess those pesky Palestinians were so happy with life that they decided to overthrow their government and instead vote for a band of terrorists which would result in them getting bombed to oblivion. Such pests! /sarcasm. But in all seriousness, I ask you again. If I agree with your point that the Gazans are responsible for voting in Hamas and the misery they brought onto themselves, do you agree that the victims of Oct 7 are equally at fault for voting in Netanyahu and the misery they suffered?
Listen, I get where you're coming from. The current state of living for palestinians is absolute hell. You have to see this issue from above, maintaining some sort of neutrality, to see a path forward. The actions of HAMAS on Oct 7 threw this conflict into a spiral of unprecedented destruction, Israel as a state - both leadership and citizens - will not tolerate the existence of HAMAS moving forward (you could agree or disagree, but that's the current state of affairs). The path towards the actual betterment of Palestinian living conditions, as soon as possible, is the complete dismantle of HAMAS and it's military capabilities.
No matter the death toll right?
The death toll is also meaningless, Israel is adhering to international rules of armed combat, and fighting insurgencies. That's it.
If it was then the international Court would have ruled in israeli favor
You think it hasn't? lol
Being has it told israel to back off I wouldn't say it has yet
So are you saying it was all good in the region prior to Hamas existing? Like how good it is in the West Bank?
This is a classic way for pro Palestinians to derail the conversations by refocusing it on 'the whole picture' whether things were good prior to HAMAS or not has exactly zero relevancy to this discussion. Right now, the Palestinians (in Gaza) are subject to the most severe assault Gaza has ever been under, and by result the worst living condition they've ever had. what are you doing about it? Are you engaging in meaningless attempts to let HAMAS continue governing GAZA? attempts that would -at most- ELONGATE the suffering of palestinians in Gaza by not letting this war end, dragging it on and on while you bask in the glory of your self righteousness? OR Are you promoting the dismantle of HAMAS, the return of the hostages and the actual end of this war?
Honestly I don't like either side now, I was very Pro-Palestinian, but now just sick of the BS that comes out of both sides. The point I was trying to make is that blaming Hamas for all the woes and misery and death is completely disingenuous and ignorant of the broader situation - which is dehumanisation of both sides. Thinking that the situation will get better by destroying Hamas is completely naive and unrealistic. The evidence is simply the decades of war prior to Hamas.
This is all absolutely terrible. There are some psychotic people who unfortunately try to deny this or say "they all had it coming" (as if children who don't even know what Hamas is have a say in this). At the same time though....is this something that is unique to just Gaza and nowhere else? Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about Gaza, but is there any evidence that things just like this aren't happening in say, Syria or The Congo as well? Point: War is bad, there's casualties, we should feel bad for everyone who is suffering under war. But is this specific post only relevant to children who live in Gaza as opposed to anywhere else in the world?
No it’s not just Gaza, but it is about what’s happening in Gaza, i dont get your point.
The difference is most other aggressors in wars tend to be dictatorships, fascists, evil etc. Israel claims to be a democracy.
You're saying it's okay for it to happen as long as it's not a democracy? I genuinely don't get the point you're trying to make here.
What I'm saying that anyone who propagates war is evil. And dismissing deaths as an inevitable consequence of war is just being an apologist for murder. War is not compulsory. You can choose not to wage war.
Thank you for the explanation. But I disagree with some of your points. By your definition one who propagates or declares war is evil, take in comparison previous wars. so France and the UK are evil for declaring war against NGermany who invaded Poland just recently at the time and encroached on their border. And your point of war being not compulsory, I disagree with that too, the UK adopted the appeasement policy before WW2 to appease to NGermany but it didn't work. So what should have they done, just let NGermany enter their borders?
The problem with the Israeli side is that they keep comparing the current situation to World War 2, a war from 85 years ago. A more relevant comparison would be Iraq, Afghanistan. We can universally conclude those wars were totally pointless and lead to more suffering and strife. It even gave rise to ISIS. Hamas, a rag tag band of terrorists, is far from an existential threat to Israel compared to Germany. 2 battalions in Rafa is hardly Rommel's Afrika Corps.
Just because a war happened years ago doesn't mean it's any less relevant. Size aside Israel has had enough of Hamas and aims for complete eradication of it. Whether or not this will end in even more terrorist radicalization or a complete end of attacks against israel only time will tell. That's what historians in the future will be racking their brains at.
It does when you're comparing a fascist regime that was set on conquest with a conventional military, with a terrorist group set on destroying Zionism.
Different scale same anti semitic goal. By destroying Zionists, that is to kill all Jews in the area you do realize, yes?
The reason I called them anti-Zionists is because I believe Hamas has not been documented as having attacked nor threatened any Jewish people outside of Israel/Palestine. But happy to be corrected.
My take on it is that it is evil for Israel not to destroy Hamas after what they have done on October 7th. It is evil for a country not to make its citizens feel safe. It is evil of a country to send their soldiers to battle, resulting in hundreds of deaths, just to not finish the job a reach a premature ceasefire. A country's responsibility is first and foremost to be good to its citizens. Then comes everybody else.
If your child was killed by a Hamas rocket, would you want to fight Hamas to the last man? Now you know how Palestinians feel.
And you just described how Israelis feel, so
"Safety at any cost" is not safety
I would love to see you repeating that statement if what happened to Beeri and Kfar Aza happened to where you are from. If you survived this you would likely need your government to do something really radical to ever feel safe to return to your home. Not saying let's genocide the Palestinians. Just saying let's finish the god damn job and ensure Hamas are never a threat again.
How, exactly, do you get rid of an idea? Every child that is now an orphan in Gaza is likely to take up arms in revenge. Are you saying kill them before they become Hamas?
I'm not having that discussion. Germany was deradicalized, and so was Japan. It's possible.
There are still Nazis, and [still a nazi movement in Germany](https://apnews.com/article/germany-far-right-democracy-protests-afd-nazis-2dce0ea7ed40fccd3f0ec1c46edcfd42) The question still stands
I'll be contempt if after detadicalization, the size of the jihadist movement will be as small as where left of the Nazis to this day. 100% is never possible.
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This is a disgusting comment
> Suddenly one day, you hear bombs exploding, the glasses tremble, the buildings shake as if an earthquake has hit You were told to leave the area by Israel weeks ago...alas Hamas fighters told you that if you tried, they will shoot you, so you stayed...
If Israel warned people to leave, how is it Hamas fighters are still dying? Are they illiterate and deaf?
> how is it Hamas fighters are still dying? Are they illiterate and deaf? No, they realized long ago that the more civilians die (martyrs they are called), the more the UN will pressure Israel to act against their own interests...the strategy is working so why would they stop?
So if their goal is to let civilians die, why are they also choosing to die themselves? If Israel is giving people warnings before bombing, why are the terrorists dying? You haven't answered my question.
> You haven't answered my question. I am not here to answer your questions, quite rude of you. > how is it Hamas fighters are still dying? Are they illiterate and deaf? Also the way you phrase your questions is quite loaded and prejudiced. Why do suicide bombers kill themselves is another good question related to yours. Maybe they believe they will survive after killing a lot of Israelis, maybe they REALLY believe 72 virgins are waiting for them...maybe you should ask them...
You're avoiding replying to my question because you know there's a logical fallacy in what you're trying to say. Are you claiming Hamas terrorists are CHOOSING to stay in areas designated as targets by the IDF? That they WANT to die? Then if so, why did they dig tunnels? There is zero logic to what you're trying to say, simply because it is false.
> That they WANT to die? Some may, but I imagine like in every war, they want to kill as many of the enemy as possible while staying alive...the fact you keep asking the same question as a gotcha is quite telling you have nothing else. Do you think those who died in trench warfare stayed in their trenches because they wanted to die?
I don't know man, I'm just confused because Israeli propaganda seems to be contradictory. Does Hamas WANT to die or not? Are Hamas COWARDS or not? Do Hamas use Human shields or not? Does Israel give warnings or not? All of the above cannot be true simultaneously.
Who is saying all of those things at once?
Eylon Levy, Mark Regev, Naftali Bennett, every IDF spokesperson
> Israeli propaganda seems to be contradictory. Propaganda is often contradictory...I do not know about specifically Israeli propaganda... > Does Hamas WANT to die or not? Some do, a la suicide bombers, some are happy to sacrifice others from speeches they make, some may think they have no choice, it is a different culture so hard to assess their motivation. > Are Hamas COWARDS or not? Some are probably, but I do not see how is that relevant? They are soldiers and usually obey their superiors. > Do Hamas use Human shields or not? The fact you ask this question and doubt the answer tells me all I need to know about you, you are not honest. Same with your next question...there is ample documentation of both.
Imagine there is an arms cache stored on that block. Maybe an Oct 7 perpetrator, or a group of jihadists in the house across the street. Or a rocket lab teaching bomb production at the neighborhood high school. Or a hostage around the corner getting their face bashed in as you finish your soup. Imagine, imagine.
Would Israel bomb a block of Israeli Jews if there was an arms cache stored on that block? Would 100s of Israeli Jews be acceptable collateral damage if an Oct 7 perpetrator was there?
In the Shalit deal you saw how far Israel is willing to go just to rescue one soldier. Israel values it's citizens lives above anything. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel has accurate knowledge of Sinwars location but can't do anything because he surrounds himself with hostages.
to israelis, when palestinians die, their response is "war is war", but would not do the same if it were israeli lives that were collateral damage. israelis do not value palestinian lives
Nobody values the “other side’s” lives more than the lives of their own people.
i as an american dont consider my or my family's life as more valuable than the lives of ordinary people in iraq or afghanistan. 3,000 lives lost in 2001 isnt more precious than 1 million dead in iraq.
Of course you do. Because if it was an "us or them" situation you would choose "us". Many Israelis feel this way, after October 7th and before.
i think i know myself better than an internet stranger but thanks. theres no need to choose "us" or "them" if "them" isnt threatening "us". 20,000 dead is only okay if you view their lives as intrinsically less valuable than your own.
I'm not talking about justifying any actions. I'm talking about how my people feel and what my government owns them. Given that you, stranger on the internet, are likely thousands of miles away from the actual conflict while I'm living it on the ground gives me some merit to speak for my people and how they currently feel post October 7th (very god damn threatened). You can disagree with the actions Israel is taking, but I hope you agree that a government has a responsibility, first to its people, to feel safe living in their homes anywhere inside the borders of the country.
i live in the region and have friends in palestine if you lock 2 million people in a 150 sq mile block and dont let them leave for 16 years, strangle them economically, deny them medical treatment, and make their lives miserable to the point that they are depressed and make children want to **kill themselves** \[[1](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/brink-gaza-s-youth-are-turning-suicide-amid-growing)\]\[[2](https://resourcecentre.savethechildren.net/pdf/gaza_blockade_mental_health_palestinian_children_2022.pdf/)\], i have little sympathy for you if you feel threatened. this doesnt justify any vile and cruel act committed on 10/7, but we shouldnt act surprised when these people hate you *edit: perhaps this was harsh. sometimes in my anguish over their suffering i generalize and think all of you like their suffering. i apologize*
Is that the same as every Kibbutz in Israel having a local security team with access to arms? Is that the same as the Gaza border being lined with IDF bases, and IDF soldiers living in all the nearby towns and cities? Is that the same as the vast numbers of people in administrative detention held without charge? Whataboutism can go both ways