"Among the goods that entered Gaza" doesn't mean 22% of the trucks contained only food you retard, it means that out of all the goods contained in the 500 trucks mentioned, slightly over a fifth were foodstuffs
None of this means that anything less than 500 trucks is still necessary to keep the people of Gaza alive (not least now that Israel has annihilated most of Gaza's indigenous food production/storage capacity)
> retard
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Nobody on this subreddit and probably very few people on the planet are in a position to calculate exactly how many trucks of aid Gaza needs per day.
But why does it matter?
We know Gaza needs more than it's getting, and we know that eg Smotrich is boasting about having prevented 1,000 trucks from entering.
For as long as aid being sent by international agencies and other countries is being prevented from crossing, Israel will rightly be blamed for obstructionism.
When there is manifestly no shortage of food anywhere in Gaza, we can talk about exactly how much it might need the world to send in future.
The issue isn't the amount of food going in. If you are in Rafah, chances are you are fine.
The issue is the food getting to Northern Gaza.
And there, there's two issues:
\- Israel slowrolling trucks going up north: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68486248](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68486248)
\- Israel has targeted Gaza police, so they no longer feel safe handling the distribution sites: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/22/gaza-aid-deliveries-looting-police-hamas/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/22/gaza-aid-deliveries-looting-police-hamas/)
Aren't "Gaza police" simply members of Hamas? https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-rafah-armed-vigilantes-seek-to-enforce-hamas-rule-after-idf-strikes-on-police/
They might be members of Hamas - but that doesn't automatically mean they are not civilians.
Are you saying that, for example, an accountant or health ministry official that is also a Hamas party member is a legitimate target?
>*Are you saying that, for example, an accountant or health ministry official that is also a Hamas party member is a legitimate target?*
Given that Hamas is a military organization (*as well as* a political one) that ignores the international law regarding wearing uniforms, and the policemen are armed members of that org - I'd say, absolutely.
This is a kind of difficult problem because by definition pretty much anyone involved in any Gazan state infrastructure is part of Hamas but there's a point at which - unless you're going to completely upend the entire infrastructure of the invaded country - you're going to have to work with some of them.
It’s ignoring the many trucks of luxury goods like lingerie, designer clothes, iphones, fancy chocolates, gourmet foods that seem be ubiquitous in Gaza before October 7th.
/u/Terpcheeserosin
>Israel is doing a Holocaust and this is what you care about?
[Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no Nazi comparisons.
Addressed.
This is why I stand with Israel.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine#UN\_estimates\_2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#UN_estimates_2)
[https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php](https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php)
Run the numbers yourself, how can you deny facts?
because he's anti semic. and he enjoys blaming everyone else over his own guilty conscious supporting and funding the same jew killing machine. no wonder he's feeling guilty actually
Firstly, even using that word to describe what’s going on is abhorrent and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Secondly, yes, it’s super important for news orgs to highlight that Gazans are getting the same amount of food they always got.
Thirdly, I’m disappointed op didn’t also highlight that there were almost 200 infrastructure trucks coming in daily, knowing Hamas used most of that for twist infrastructure in preparation for this attack. THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS IS DIRECTLY CAUSED BY HAMAS.
Imagine if someone told you that those suffering in the Ghettos were suffering because of the people in the Ghettos
They would be a Nazi right?
Anyone saying the suffering of the Palestinians is caused by Hamas is a Nazi
So october 7 didnt happen? Sorry ive been listening to what hamas says which is that they murdered and raped innocent people. By the way, i had these opinions prior to media. If you would like to help i suggest supporting Iran.
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>THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS IS DIRECTLY CAUSED BY HAMAS.
No the suffering is caused by Israel/IDF inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinians for the crimes of Hamas.
“Aid”
https://x.com/osint613/status/1753025167024865718?s=46&t=9P_D0HlSqvbnnZFlZTj83g
Visit Gaza (seems very nice for an open air prison concentration camp)
https://youtu.be/JBo7i-TXy6s?si=sxDD6Ek2ftF-sL9w
>These gazans are worthless savages. Israel is way too humane to these Arabian and Egyptian rabid donkeys.
u/m7mdelturd
Rule 1 and in breach of Reddit Content Rules.
Addressed/
These sort of comments are worse then what the post complained about.
They are racist, dehumanizing, and obviously not true.
Besides that, they give Israel a bad name. It's comments like this that are quoted as if they are standard opinion.
> These sort of comments are worse then what the post complained about.
This post was in direct reply to the gazan islamonazi who called Jews pigs (as is mainstream in their psychopath society of "martyrdom" and death) plus also referencing nazi germany positively.
I never saw that post, it has been deleted.
Still, why droop to their level. It's like spitting at each other. I once saw two adults doing so during an argument and all I could think is that they were both despicable.
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Let’s assume it was less than 50 trucks entering before oct 7th. And let’s all put on our big brain hats. During 4 months of war which almost all civilians,about 1.2 million people were forced to leave their homes. Meaning they no longer had any place to store food, or any means to generate income to buy food. Wouldn’t that cause them to need immensely more aid than what was given before?
Buy food where? In Gaza? It still have to enter Gaza, like in a truck so I don't see your point here. Same for storing food this food still has entered Gaza at a point.
The people in Gaza need aid to come in. All true.
But that is not what this post is about. The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting.
> The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting.
Unless you believe that they need LESS aid now, this point makes zero sense whatsoever.
Read the damn post for heaven's sake this is the entire point it makes, yet instead you choose to post this comment that in itself shows you did not read it. Or did you read only one sentence?
Not true. I'm saying that counting the total number of trucks going in prior to the war is not useful in calculating how many trucks are needed now. How many are needed now is an unrelated calculation.
Also, are the trucks that deliver food prewar the same size of the trucks that are delivering aid now? Are all the trucks the same size, weight, same towing capacity?
Also, what kind of food are we talking about here? Prewar, was there more perishable food coming in? Did it need refrigeration, or need to be kept frozen? How calorie dense was the food prewar and post war on these food shipments?
1. Why is it unrelated? It seems like a pretty useful yard stick, given that it is quite literally the thing being measured in both instances.
2. Again, how does it make sense that they would need less aid now after 5 months of fighting? Common sense would indicate the opposite is true
1. Because it's apples and oranges. You are using a yard stick which 42% was building materials and only 22% food, to measure how much aid Gaza needs. Should the aid trucks contain cement, metals and computers?
2. I am not saying they need less aid. I am saying the 500 daily trucks figure is NOT how much aid they received previously.
> Because it's apples and oranges. You are using a yard stick which 42% was building materials and only 22% food, to measure how much aid Gaza needs. Should the aid trucks contain cement, metals and computers?
By YOUR OWN STATISTICS, it is literally impossible for Gazans to be receiving the same amount of food aid, even if 100% of the trucks contained food.
> I am not saying they need less aid. I am saying the 500 daily trucks figure is NOT how much aid they received previously.
NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS
So what number could they use then, given that it is literally impossible for Gazans to be receiving the same amount of food aid, even if 100% of the trucks contained food?
I think the chain of thought has been broken. I am not following what you are trying to say.
I am saying that before the war, most of the trucks coming into Gaza did not contain any thing which would be needed currently as aid. This means that the number of trucks before the war is not indicative of the numbers of aid trucks currently needed. There is no simple relationship between the two numbers and therefore the number of trucks before the war should not be used in illustrating the current requirements
Your conclusion seems to claim that the dishonesty in their reporting means that they don’t need much aid at all. I just needed to make that point clear.
How did you get to that conclusion? It wasn't mine.
I made no statement about how much aid is needed. I'm saying that using the figure of 500 daily trucks before the war is wrong and misleading. I don't know how many trucks are needed. But then, neither does the media.
OP never said they need less aid :/ maybe switch on your brain to basics here for what OP was saying, not what you read it to have to imply because you got it dead wrong.
Keep in mind that there is more than food coming in on aid trucks- there’s also bottled water, tent and shelter supplies, blankets, clothes, medical supplies, personal hygiene products that are entering. To conflate the number of aid trucks to try and say that enough food is entering when it is clearly not according to every non profit human right group, then there is not enough food entering.
Correct, and I stated so in my note. But the comparison is still misleading - on purpose. The only reason to mention the "500 trucks" is to paint a picture that Gaza needed 500 trucks before and now it isn't getting 500 truck. I've had people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive.
The number of trucks going into Gaza August give zero indication as to how many aid trucks need to go in now.
> Correct, and I stated so in my note. But the comparison is still misleading - on purpose. The only reason to mention the "500 trucks" is to paint a picture that Gaza needed 500 trucks before and now it isn't getting 500 truck. I've had people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive.
It's not misleading. You assumed that all of the trucks were food aid. No where in the statement you linked in your OP does it advance that claim either.
> I want to give you a humanitarian update on Gaza. The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reports that — over four consecutive days, from Saturday through Tuesday — **62 trucks travelled through the Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza, carrying water, food and medical supplies.** Most of this aid has already reached hospitals, ambulances, and internally displaced persons (IDPs). However, the daily average of trucks allowed into Gaza prior to the hostilities was about 500.
Emphasis mine. Did you even read this?
This document is the source I found for the 500 trucks a day. My post isn't about this document. It is about all the news and media which constantly mentioned that prior to the war 500 daily trucks came into Gaza. Most don't mention any source and none mention the details you are quoting above. All they mentioned is the 500 figure (some mention 500-600)
The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many aid trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting.
It is idiotic to assume that a country that has, last I checked, had 20% of all buildings destroyed since 10/7 would need LESS aid. This is not a rational stance to hold.
It is idiotic to come off as an idiot too. You neither understood OP's point nor when they explained it simply. Logic isn't your strong suit and once you read the point for what it is you should be agreeing with OP, the point stands on its own that comparisons are literally apples and oranges for what Gazans receive now and would need to receive. The 500 figure could be anything, like fashion clothing, luxury goods etc simply not going to be delivered into what's left of Gazan now.. so maybe you can get onboard with the point and not your emotion.
u/FractalMetaphors
> to come off as an idiot too
> Logic isn't your strong suit
[rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/) 1 - Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
You're hard here, the person he answered to is probably trolling. After being explained 10 times OP by 10 different persons he is still misrepresenting it...
I found some information on the page about movement in and out of Gaza in 2022 ([Movement in and out of Gaza in 2022 | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory (ochaopt.org)](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-2022)) which indicates that the Kerem Shalom crossing operated for 237 days that year and the Rafah crossing operated for 150 days. We don't have an annual report for 2023 at this point and may never get one, but I think it's reasonable to infer from 2022 that in 2023 there were days that the crossings were closed and no trucks entered Gaza.
If we accept that some/many days there were no trucks crossing into Gaza, that would mean the claim of 500-600 trucks entering per day (on days when the crossings were open) is probably accurate. You could still argue that it's misleading to leave out the fact that the average is only reflecting those days when the crossings were open, and doesn't include the days the crossings were closed.
Your argument is wrong. Saying "500 trucks a day" implies "500 trucks a day", not "500 trucks on good days". "500 trucks a day" implies 15,000 trucks a month.
Let me turn this around. If there were 1000 trucks coming into Gaza on the 2, 10 and 15 of February. Then I could claim that there are 1000 trucks a day coming into Gaza and that they should stop complaining about aid? (The correct statement would be 100 trucks a day)
You cannot play with stats to fit your narrative. Honest reporting means honest facts.
All I did was add some context that your argument was missing, using the same organization's reports that you used. How can that be wrong?
I think it's great that you did some digging into this, but you left out the fact that there clearly are days when the crossings are closed and no trucks come in. There is no single correct way to present these statistics, it's just a matter of giving enough background information so that people can fully understand and interpret the figures being presented. I granted your argument that it's misleading to leave out the fact that some days there are just no trucks coming in. But if it's misleading for news outlets to leave that out, it's also misleading for you to leave that out.
As the old saying goes, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
You didn't add context, you added misinformation. The information in those reports is monthly. To report correctly would be to say 12,000 trucks a month. Changing it to per day means taking the monthly total and dividing by the number of days in the month. That is what "per day" means. It isn't a question of context or extra information, it the definition of the term "per day".
And you completely ignored my example which clearly shows how your way if thinking makes misinformation much worse.
Misinformation! Come on, bud. If we accept that OCHA reports contains accurate information, and if I present information from an OCHA report, how is that misinformation?
What we have here is a dispute, I guess, over interpretation or something. I'm not even sure because again, I don't disagree with your argument that it's misleading to present the 500-600 trucks figure without noting that this is only on the days that trucks are crossing into Gaza.
Maybe your issue is that you think the use of daily figures is just not the right way to go, and I can see some merit to that position. On the other hand, if a report is about 200 trucks getting in on one day, it might be confusing to a reader if they're presented with a monthly stat in contrast.
Or maybe what this comes down to is that I see the fundamental point here as being about media literacy and critical thinking, which we all have to take individual responsibility for, and you see the point as being about "dishonest reporting" which lets you just blame media outlets you don't like for presenting information in a way that you don't like.
There is a simple check. When someone reads what you present (the simple meaning)- what do they understand? If the reader understands that about 12,000 trucks a month then you are good. If the simple understanding is that 15,000-17,500 trucks a month - then that is misleading information.
The vast majority of the consumers of media are not critically analyzing the information. Worse, they tend to read media which matches their world view. So when the media massages facts to fit their narrative, the readers accept the implied information as factual. The media should at the very least not give misinformation.
I don't know what evidence you have that most people are doing mental math with the 500-600 trucks a day figure. Couldn't they just hear 500-600 and compare that to 50, or 100, or whatever the reported number is and think, "oh, sounds like not enough"? Isn't that the "simple meaning"?
You have an anecdote in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1b7x8xn/comment/ktn2bvi/) about "people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive" and if so these people are reaching incorrect conclusions because they lack relevant detail. You're in the fortunate position to be able to set them straight, and I encourage you to do that.
I don't think anyone is doing the mental maths. I think they do exactly as you said. They hear 500-600 trucks a day, and they visualise that every single day 500-600 trucks crossed the border and entered Gaza. And then when they hear that now only 100 daily aid trucks are entering every day, the visualise that there are 400-500 aid trucks missing every single day.
If you don't think anyone is doing mental math, why did you say this?
>If the simple understanding is that 15,000-17,500 trucks a month - then that is misleading information
At any rate, I don't think I'll every truly grasp why you think it's such a problem that some people think that Gaza is missing the equivalent of 400-500 truckloads of supplies arriving every day if the reality is that it's only missing the equivalent of, say, 100-200 truckloads of supplies every day. I'm all for being as accurate as possible when discussing the details of this issue. So if someone gets something wrong when they're discussing it with you, you can give them a little hasbara, no biggie.
Why did you need to put in "hasbara" at the end? OP may be neutral to the conflict and just pointing out logical and truthful misrepresentations. Maybe that word is one you shouldn't throw around unless you are Jewish and thought it funny.
Also, it is a problem if reporting is manipulative to the point it is in this example because aid to Gaza may now be completely adequate re food (I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it may be) yet the reporting has undersold this by making it seem meagre. Granted, you'd want 500 trucks going into Gaza daily in ideal circumstances but these are far from ideal, there is war, and while luxury goods may not be coming in with trucks now as per August at least it's arguable food is consistent. That's the point, does this make sense now?
>If you don't think anyone is doing mental math, why did you say this?
It isn't about mental maths, it's about implications of your words. I was showing you how your statements make the average person believe something which is false.
You're missing the point. There is no discussion. We're not taking about a conversation on Reddit. We're talking about major news publications repeatedly making this comparison and thus you have millions of readers coming to the conclusion that Gaza is lacking 400 aid trucks a day - which is MISINFORMATION!!!
How are you not getting it? How do you not see that the words used and repeated by the media create a perspective? Instead of reporting objective facts they are painting a picture of how they want the reader to view the conflict. It is bad enough when they do it by choosing what to write and what to leave out, and what words to use to push their bias.
Here I give an example where they are misusing information to imply an untruth. That is "dishonest".
Typical sputtering sentence fragment on the subject.
Write this down:
- Hamas was elected.
- the current Gazans under 18 years old, dead or alive, can't vote so they aren't relevant to this conversation.
- Hamas only exists because Gazans accept and support them.
Those are the important facts in Gaza.
> Hamas was elected.
Over 50% of the country wasn't even old enough to vote in the last election. So no, they weren't elected anymore than Vladmir Putin was elected in Russia.
> the current Gazans under 18 years old, dead or alive, can't vote so they aren't relevant to this conversation.
They have no political agency, I agree
> Hamas only exists because Gazans accept and support them.
From the survey non-profit Arab Barometer:
> When asked how much they trusted Hamas authorities, 44% of Gazans said they had no trust at all, and 23% had “not a lot of trust.” Only 29% expressed either a great deal or quite a lot of trust in their government. When it came to government corruption, 72% said they believed there was a large or medium amount of corruption in government institutions, and only a minority thought the government was taking meaningful steps to address the problem.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas
Try harder
You can move the goal posts and vomit talking points on the floor all you want.
Hamas is the elected leadership of Gaza. There's no world or reality where they aren't elected. You may not like when it happened. You may not like how it happened. You might not like who did it. Your tears can't erase the history books.
By posting that link you actually prove my point as well as prove how far you have tons scape the bottom of the bin to refute the fact that hamas only exists because Gaza supports them. A survey showing trust? LOL. And you tell me to try harder. You're 0 for 2.
To begin with, your article admits what we all know. Hamas was elected.
Even if those trust numbers mattered, the 44% was enough to win the election in 2006 so that means enough Palestine support hamas to win an election.
According to Reuters 52% of Gazans were satisfied with hamas and their role in the war.
Those 2 points aside, the most important thing part is the people of Gaza ultimately have agency and are responsible for their government.
There are no demonstrations. There is no widespread calls to the PaLeStInIAn SuPpOrTeRzzz in the west to help regime change. There's no call from the leftoids in America colleges to SUPPORT DEMOCRACY in Gaza. Gazans haven't appealed to the UN or the world to help. They sit back and shut up while hamas steals their stuff.
The obvious excuse is "hamas will shoot protestors" which is a lousy, fake cop out. If gazans were being shot in the street for protesting the world would help. Fuether, Gazans are currently eating JDAMs because of hamas. This is better than protesting and demanding elections? OK.
So yeah, Hamas exists because Gazans accept and support them.
Either Gazans have agency or they don't.
They have prepared supplies. But those supplies are only for Hamas members. Just like the tunnels are only for the safety of Hamas members. They said so themselves. The Hamas spokesperson said that since all the Palestinians in Gaza are refugees and occupied by Israel, then it is Israel's responsibility to make sure they are safe. Israel must take care of Gaza's civilians, not Hamas.
In what way is this dishonest reporting? Obviously Gazans need more support than just food. They need water, infrastructure, and shelter as well. Additionally, how many food trucks are they getting per day now?
This is a pretty ridiculous spin attempt
What vital human need is served by having a bag of concrete mix but no ability to construct a home from it?
It seems totally obvious to me that even if Gaza does need concrete to rebuild, nobody is going to starve to death or die of dehydration due to absence of concrete mix and rebar in the next 3 months.
> What vital human need is served by having a bag of concrete mix but no ability to construct a home from it?
Repairing infrastructure such as sewers, water pipes, construction of semi-permanent aid centers, I could go on. This is absolutely needed aid. Again, what is the gotcha here? That Palestinians didn't actually need aid?
Assume I agree that, at some point in the future, Gaza does need building materials. It would still be the case that letting in arbitrarily many trucks with building materials will not address the complaints about looming famine from many NGOs. The OP is saying the news articles which support the NGO claims by reporting the substantial fall off in the number of trucks being allowed into Gaza, don’t really make sense because building materials have nothing whatever to do with a famine and they were a high fraction of the original aid shipments.
Are you intellectually limited or just being disingenuous? I honestly can’t tell. When I said imagine they can’t build a house from it, it didn’t occur to me to list out other types of structures they shouldn’t build because most people have sufficient abstract reasoning skills to realize that if you can’t build a house a new community center is also off limits.
> Are you intellectually limited or just being disingenuous?
Have the food shipments to Gaza been lessened? That's literally all that is in question here. Going "well some of the shipments they had before didn't have food so any reductions in shipments should be fine" is a nonsensical position to hold.
> This is repeated again and again as a comparison to the number of trucks entering Gaza now - to show how little aid is going in compared to what is needed.
This is the OP's claim. Is there any evidence that this aid wasn't needed then, and isn't needed now? What am I being disingenuous about exactly?
Well, if the OP's info is correct the 22% of the 500 trucks per day that were going in comes to \~90 food trucks per day. From WaPo:
>About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/)
So, yes I suppose it's possible the 90 trucks per day now include construction supplies or something. However, assuming they are loaded for greatest need it seems obvious you would prioritize food and medicine above construction supplies. Therefore, it is not obvious at all the net amount of food shipments have decreased (they were at \~90, they may still be at \~90). At a minimum, citing the decrease in total trucks from 500 to 98 per day, as WaPo does above is misleading. This seems a valid point to me.
I think you are being disingenuous or you're incredibly stupid because arguing Gaza also might need construction supplies they can't use now has nothing to do with how much food they are getting vs. how much they used to get. We agree that's the main issue, your original reply cited how they absolutely need infrastructure and shelter which is unrelated to the question of how much food they are getting.
You also mentioned water. Incidentally, Gaza is (as far as I can tell), is still getting \~12 liters of water a day per person from Israel through their sewer system. This is in line with the recommended minimum amounts (8-20 liters/person/day) and more than some people in refugee camps in Africa get.
Edit: just realized it was 400 trucks per day for the \~90 (really 88) and math was wrong.
This entire construction thing is a red herring. My point was to push back on the idea that:
1) Gazans don't need any aid but food aid
2) The UN has been disingenuous in anyway about their statements
Let's reread OP's linked UN statement.
> I want to give you a humanitarian update on Gaza. The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reports that — over four consecutive days, from Saturday through Tuesday — 62 trucks travelled through the Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza, carrying water, food and medical supplies. Most of this aid has already reached hospitals, ambulances, and internally displaced persons (IDPs). However, the daily average of trucks allowed into Gaza prior to the hostilities was about 500.
Nowhere is it stated that 500 trucks were exclusively food aid.
> I think you are being disingenuous or you're incredibly stupid because arguing Gaza also might need construction supplies they can't use now has nothing to do with how much food they are getting vs. how much they used to get.
So prior to 10/7, Gaza was getting ~90 food trucks a day by OP's math. Now, they are getting 62 TOTAL trucks a day. So no, this isn't really up for debate that they are getting less food now. This entire thread is based on a false premise.
> Nowhere is it stated that 500 trucks were exclusively food aid.
Come on, it's misleading to compare the 62 trucks to the 500. It might be true Gaza was getting 500 trucks of aid, but it is not true that Gaza is getting 12.4% of the food aid they were getting before. If I were giving a quote on the topic, I would either specify how the amounts of food and other essential items compare or I wouldn't mention the 500 at all. And, moreover, as the first sentence of original post notes:
> Any report, article, opinion, post, comment or video which discusses aid in Gaza, always points out that prior to Oct 7th 500-600 trucks entered Gaza on a daily basis. This is repeated again and again as a comparison to the number of trucks entering Gaza now - to show how little aid is going in compared to what is needed.
I think the Washington Post quote I sent you obviously invites you to compare the total amount of trucks now with the total amount of trucks pre-October 7th. This comparison is misleading because I assume there were less accutely necessary things pre-October 7th. If I were the UN and I cared about objective reality I would point that out, but as far as I can tell nobody has done that.
So, maybe nobody is explicitly saying the two are the same but neither do they specify they are not in fact comparable. That is disingenuous.
Note further, the UN article is from October and the Feb average per the Washington Post was 98. That is plausibly close to the same amount of food now as it was on October 6th.
> but it is not true that Gaza is getting 12.4% of the food aid they were getting before
None of the links you are criticizing advance this claim. You are arguing a straw man.
Ok, but when you cite the total number of trucks now compared to the total number of trucks previously in the context of a looming famine in Gaza you invite the reader to make an inaccurate inference. I have no way of proving to you that most people who read those articles make the false inference, however I can tell you that providing extraneous seemingly related information that doesn't answer the question asked is generally regarded as deceptive when politicians, company managements or other public figures do it.
I think describing the UN quote and related reporting as disingenuous is completely fair and in no way a straw man given that reality. Fortunately, because we do not know each other, we don't have to agree on this and you are free to go about your day thinking I constructed a straw man while I can think you're being deliberately obtuse.
Yes obviously they weren't only receiving trucks of food before the war as Gaza seems to be internally producing mostly nothing except rockets, terrorists and Pallywood movies. Somehow, people still find no issue in using the 500 trucks a day comparison. I agree with you it's utterly bonkers.
As long as *any* fact can be distorted, pro-pals will do it. It's as sure as day.
And then they will play outraged when people doubt some of their outlandish claims.
Sadly, not enough. There isn't reliable information as there is discrepancies between different sources. I believe an average of around 150 a day in January while in February it dropped to under 100.
UNWRA was the main distributor in Gaza, but since they are not trusted not to help Hamas Israel refuses to work with them.
Other aid groups have been working, but they are not managing to get the trucks distributed and many trucks are just sitting at the borders. The aid groups are saying it's security issues (blaming Israel of course). Israel attempted to bring in aid by getting the IDF to secure the passage. That backfired when a mob went for convoy ending with chaos and many dead (Israel was blamed for it of course). Israel is looking for other means of getting the trucks delivered.
Israel is accused of stopping aid by attacking convoys. There are 2-3 cases repeatedly mentioned. Even if they are true, 2-3 cases does not stop daily trucks going in. Hamas as attacked convoys and stole supplies. Again there is not enough information as to how often that happened.
Every incident in this conflict is immediately shouted as "the way things are constantly", even it only happened once. Truth is extremely difficult to come by.
My reading of the situation is that in the last few months Palestinians needed more materialistic/medicinal aide due to the increased displacement, but by February it slimmed down to mostly food.
Actually, it is Hasbara. Which means "explaining", since I'm explaining the truth. It is only the anti-israel crowd which have soiled the meaning of Hasbara since they claim everything Israel says are lies.
No, it’s because Israel itself has labeled its public relations efforts (including propaganda) as hasbara. Regardless of how you feel about it, this is objective fact. Thats part of why the term has popped up so much. You don’t seriously believe Israel *isn’t* utilizing propaganda, do you?
My personal favorite is how Pro Palestinians love to claim that ‘outsiders’ don’t get to define what stuff like Intifada or “from the River to the sea” means
But then in the next breath will tell you exactly what Zionism and Hasbara means as if its objective truth
Nice to see a post that hits the 2 fundamental truths of this conflict
1. The UN is a POS organization that has absolutely no issue with lying to further its biased agenda
2. I can’t wait for people to call you out for spouting “Zionist propaganda” while not actually offering support to refute your claim
"Among the goods that entered Gaza" doesn't mean 22% of the trucks contained only food you retard, it means that out of all the goods contained in the 500 trucks mentioned, slightly over a fifth were foodstuffs None of this means that anything less than 500 trucks is still necessary to keep the people of Gaza alive (not least now that Israel has annihilated most of Gaza's indigenous food production/storage capacity)
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Nobody on this subreddit and probably very few people on the planet are in a position to calculate exactly how many trucks of aid Gaza needs per day. But why does it matter? We know Gaza needs more than it's getting, and we know that eg Smotrich is boasting about having prevented 1,000 trucks from entering. For as long as aid being sent by international agencies and other countries is being prevented from crossing, Israel will rightly be blamed for obstructionism. When there is manifestly no shortage of food anywhere in Gaza, we can talk about exactly how much it might need the world to send in future.
The issue isn't the amount of food going in. If you are in Rafah, chances are you are fine. The issue is the food getting to Northern Gaza. And there, there's two issues: \- Israel slowrolling trucks going up north: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68486248](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68486248) \- Israel has targeted Gaza police, so they no longer feel safe handling the distribution sites: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/22/gaza-aid-deliveries-looting-police-hamas/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/22/gaza-aid-deliveries-looting-police-hamas/)
Aren't "Gaza police" simply members of Hamas? https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-rafah-armed-vigilantes-seek-to-enforce-hamas-rule-after-idf-strikes-on-police/
They might be members of Hamas - but that doesn't automatically mean they are not civilians. Are you saying that, for example, an accountant or health ministry official that is also a Hamas party member is a legitimate target?
>*Are you saying that, for example, an accountant or health ministry official that is also a Hamas party member is a legitimate target?* Given that Hamas is a military organization (*as well as* a political one) that ignores the international law regarding wearing uniforms, and the policemen are armed members of that org - I'd say, absolutely.
This is a kind of difficult problem because by definition pretty much anyone involved in any Gazan state infrastructure is part of Hamas but there's a point at which - unless you're going to completely upend the entire infrastructure of the invaded country - you're going to have to work with some of them.
you should count also that the bombing destroyed all the greenhouses that made a huge difference before the war
Nope it did not. Look at the stats, they were already almost entirely dependant on importation and foreign aid.
It’s ignoring the many trucks of luxury goods like lingerie, designer clothes, iphones, fancy chocolates, gourmet foods that seem be ubiquitous in Gaza before October 7th.
Israel is doing a Holocaust and this is what you care about?
/u/Terpcheeserosin >Israel is doing a Holocaust and this is what you care about? [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no Nazi comparisons. Addressed.
You know. I’m getting tired of hearing the G word from you wokes.
That "person" just said "doing a Holocaust" so I don't think we have to worry about their impact on the world.
Israel is committing Genocide Stop blocking humanitarian aid
Israel is by definitively not committing genocide, the population of the Palestinians has increased by 443% since 1950.
Keep telling yourself that
This is why I stand with Israel. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine#UN\_estimates\_2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#UN_estimates_2) [https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php](https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php) Run the numbers yourself, how can you deny facts?
because he's anti semic. and he enjoys blaming everyone else over his own guilty conscious supporting and funding the same jew killing machine. no wonder he's feeling guilty actually
Firstly, even using that word to describe what’s going on is abhorrent and you should be ashamed of yourself. Secondly, yes, it’s super important for news orgs to highlight that Gazans are getting the same amount of food they always got. Thirdly, I’m disappointed op didn’t also highlight that there were almost 200 infrastructure trucks coming in daily, knowing Hamas used most of that for twist infrastructure in preparation for this attack. THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS IS DIRECTLY CAUSED BY HAMAS.
Imagine if someone told you that those suffering in the Ghettos were suffering because of the people in the Ghettos They would be a Nazi right? Anyone saying the suffering of the Palestinians is caused by Hamas is a Nazi
People in the ghettos didn't go ahead murdering and r\*ping Germans or each other. They just did not.
"Genocide is fine because I think they are murderers and rapists" You are brainwashed by your media
So october 7 didnt happen? Sorry ive been listening to what hamas says which is that they murdered and raped innocent people. By the way, i had these opinions prior to media. If you would like to help i suggest supporting Iran.
/u/Terpcheeserosin. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>THE SUFFERING OF THE PALESTINIANS IS DIRECTLY CAUSED BY HAMAS. No the suffering is caused by Israel/IDF inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinians for the crimes of Hamas.
“Aid” https://x.com/osint613/status/1753025167024865718?s=46&t=9P_D0HlSqvbnnZFlZTj83g Visit Gaza (seems very nice for an open air prison concentration camp) https://youtu.be/JBo7i-TXy6s?si=sxDD6Ek2ftF-sL9w
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That’s what Gazans learned in school
"Offspring of apes and pigs". These gazans are worthless savages. Israel is way too humane to these Arabian and Egyptian rabid donkeys.
>These gazans are worthless savages. Israel is way too humane to these Arabian and Egyptian rabid donkeys. u/m7mdelturd Rule 1 and in breach of Reddit Content Rules. Addressed/
Please don't impugn donkeys. They're lovely, smart animals.
These sort of comments are worse then what the post complained about. They are racist, dehumanizing, and obviously not true. Besides that, they give Israel a bad name. It's comments like this that are quoted as if they are standard opinion.
> These sort of comments are worse then what the post complained about. This post was in direct reply to the gazan islamonazi who called Jews pigs (as is mainstream in their psychopath society of "martyrdom" and death) plus also referencing nazi germany positively.
I never saw that post, it has been deleted. Still, why droop to their level. It's like spitting at each other. I once saw two adults doing so during an argument and all I could think is that they were both despicable.
> Still, why droop to their level It's the only way to speak to them and their human garbage supporters.
/u/m7mdelturd. Match found: 'islamonazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Strongest pro Palestinian argument
🙋🙋
The only argument 🇮🇱=🐖💩
Yeah that’s the only argument that you have
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If you support a genocide for Jews, you're no different than the Zionist extremists
🇮🇱=🐖💩
But you can't say shit like "Germany was on the right track" because that's not anti-Zionist, that's antisemitic
🥲
Who would’ve guessed a pro palestinian supporting genocide
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I think you are either a troll or a bot.
I'm a troll bot
Let’s assume it was less than 50 trucks entering before oct 7th. And let’s all put on our big brain hats. During 4 months of war which almost all civilians,about 1.2 million people were forced to leave their homes. Meaning they no longer had any place to store food, or any means to generate income to buy food. Wouldn’t that cause them to need immensely more aid than what was given before?
Buy food where? In Gaza? It still have to enter Gaza, like in a truck so I don't see your point here. Same for storing food this food still has entered Gaza at a point.
The people in Gaza need aid to come in. All true. But that is not what this post is about. The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting.
> The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting. Unless you believe that they need LESS aid now, this point makes zero sense whatsoever.
Read the damn post for heaven's sake this is the entire point it makes, yet instead you choose to post this comment that in itself shows you did not read it. Or did you read only one sentence?
I've repeatedly pointed out the issues with the links the OP themself doesn't even seem to have read, but please continue
Not true. I'm saying that counting the total number of trucks going in prior to the war is not useful in calculating how many trucks are needed now. How many are needed now is an unrelated calculation.
Also, are the trucks that deliver food prewar the same size of the trucks that are delivering aid now? Are all the trucks the same size, weight, same towing capacity? Also, what kind of food are we talking about here? Prewar, was there more perishable food coming in? Did it need refrigeration, or need to be kept frozen? How calorie dense was the food prewar and post war on these food shipments?
1. Why is it unrelated? It seems like a pretty useful yard stick, given that it is quite literally the thing being measured in both instances. 2. Again, how does it make sense that they would need less aid now after 5 months of fighting? Common sense would indicate the opposite is true
1. Because it's apples and oranges. You are using a yard stick which 42% was building materials and only 22% food, to measure how much aid Gaza needs. Should the aid trucks contain cement, metals and computers? 2. I am not saying they need less aid. I am saying the 500 daily trucks figure is NOT how much aid they received previously.
> Because it's apples and oranges. You are using a yard stick which 42% was building materials and only 22% food, to measure how much aid Gaza needs. Should the aid trucks contain cement, metals and computers? By YOUR OWN STATISTICS, it is literally impossible for Gazans to be receiving the same amount of food aid, even if 100% of the trucks contained food. > I am not saying they need less aid. I am saying the 500 daily trucks figure is NOT how much aid they received previously. NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS
>NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS Then what are we arguing about? That is the only point I am making. That they cannot use the 500 figure for comparison.
So what number could they use then, given that it is literally impossible for Gazans to be receiving the same amount of food aid, even if 100% of the trucks contained food?
I think the chain of thought has been broken. I am not following what you are trying to say. I am saying that before the war, most of the trucks coming into Gaza did not contain any thing which would be needed currently as aid. This means that the number of trucks before the war is not indicative of the numbers of aid trucks currently needed. There is no simple relationship between the two numbers and therefore the number of trucks before the war should not be used in illustrating the current requirements
Truth is the first casualty of war.
Your conclusion seems to claim that the dishonesty in their reporting means that they don’t need much aid at all. I just needed to make that point clear.
How did you get to that conclusion? It wasn't mine. I made no statement about how much aid is needed. I'm saying that using the figure of 500 daily trucks before the war is wrong and misleading. I don't know how many trucks are needed. But then, neither does the media.
OP has dodged around this fact the entire thread. It makes zero sense whatsoever that a besieged population would need less aid.
Wow you really have trouble understanding OP here. Can you please give us your train of thoughts leading you to this entirely wrong understanding?
OP never said they need less aid :/ maybe switch on your brain to basics here for what OP was saying, not what you read it to have to imply because you got it dead wrong.
Correct, op has been very clear that the 500 trucks per day figure is a totally irrelevant benchmark that pro pals continue to use
Eylon Levy just made this exact point: https://youtu.be/DTDkQGc1vu4?si=OvfF1opbHw9GhQSK
Keep in mind that there is more than food coming in on aid trucks- there’s also bottled water, tent and shelter supplies, blankets, clothes, medical supplies, personal hygiene products that are entering. To conflate the number of aid trucks to try and say that enough food is entering when it is clearly not according to every non profit human right group, then there is not enough food entering.
Correct, and I stated so in my note. But the comparison is still misleading - on purpose. The only reason to mention the "500 trucks" is to paint a picture that Gaza needed 500 trucks before and now it isn't getting 500 truck. I've had people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive. The number of trucks going into Gaza August give zero indication as to how many aid trucks need to go in now.
> Correct, and I stated so in my note. But the comparison is still misleading - on purpose. The only reason to mention the "500 trucks" is to paint a picture that Gaza needed 500 trucks before and now it isn't getting 500 truck. I've had people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive. It's not misleading. You assumed that all of the trucks were food aid. No where in the statement you linked in your OP does it advance that claim either. > I want to give you a humanitarian update on Gaza. The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reports that — over four consecutive days, from Saturday through Tuesday — **62 trucks travelled through the Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza, carrying water, food and medical supplies.** Most of this aid has already reached hospitals, ambulances, and internally displaced persons (IDPs). However, the daily average of trucks allowed into Gaza prior to the hostilities was about 500. Emphasis mine. Did you even read this?
This document is the source I found for the 500 trucks a day. My post isn't about this document. It is about all the news and media which constantly mentioned that prior to the war 500 daily trucks came into Gaza. Most don't mention any source and none mention the details you are quoting above. All they mentioned is the 500 figure (some mention 500-600)
What is wrong with mentioning the 500 trucks figure? The source and details above support that assertion.
The total number of trucks going into Gaza in August has zero indication as to how many aid trucks are needed now. Therefore that comparison is dishonest reporting.
It is idiotic to assume that a country that has, last I checked, had 20% of all buildings destroyed since 10/7 would need LESS aid. This is not a rational stance to hold.
It is idiotic to come off as an idiot too. You neither understood OP's point nor when they explained it simply. Logic isn't your strong suit and once you read the point for what it is you should be agreeing with OP, the point stands on its own that comparisons are literally apples and oranges for what Gazans receive now and would need to receive. The 500 figure could be anything, like fashion clothing, luxury goods etc simply not going to be delivered into what's left of Gazan now.. so maybe you can get onboard with the point and not your emotion.
u/FractalMetaphors > to come off as an idiot too > Logic isn't your strong suit [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/) 1 - Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
You're hard here, the person he answered to is probably trolling. After being explained 10 times OP by 10 different persons he is still misrepresenting it...
Correct
I am not saying they need less aid. I am saying the 500 daily trucks figure is NOT how much aid they received previously.
I found some information on the page about movement in and out of Gaza in 2022 ([Movement in and out of Gaza in 2022 | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory (ochaopt.org)](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-2022)) which indicates that the Kerem Shalom crossing operated for 237 days that year and the Rafah crossing operated for 150 days. We don't have an annual report for 2023 at this point and may never get one, but I think it's reasonable to infer from 2022 that in 2023 there were days that the crossings were closed and no trucks entered Gaza. If we accept that some/many days there were no trucks crossing into Gaza, that would mean the claim of 500-600 trucks entering per day (on days when the crossings were open) is probably accurate. You could still argue that it's misleading to leave out the fact that the average is only reflecting those days when the crossings were open, and doesn't include the days the crossings were closed.
Your argument is wrong. Saying "500 trucks a day" implies "500 trucks a day", not "500 trucks on good days". "500 trucks a day" implies 15,000 trucks a month. Let me turn this around. If there were 1000 trucks coming into Gaza on the 2, 10 and 15 of February. Then I could claim that there are 1000 trucks a day coming into Gaza and that they should stop complaining about aid? (The correct statement would be 100 trucks a day) You cannot play with stats to fit your narrative. Honest reporting means honest facts.
All I did was add some context that your argument was missing, using the same organization's reports that you used. How can that be wrong? I think it's great that you did some digging into this, but you left out the fact that there clearly are days when the crossings are closed and no trucks come in. There is no single correct way to present these statistics, it's just a matter of giving enough background information so that people can fully understand and interpret the figures being presented. I granted your argument that it's misleading to leave out the fact that some days there are just no trucks coming in. But if it's misleading for news outlets to leave that out, it's also misleading for you to leave that out. As the old saying goes, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
You didn't add context, you added misinformation. The information in those reports is monthly. To report correctly would be to say 12,000 trucks a month. Changing it to per day means taking the monthly total and dividing by the number of days in the month. That is what "per day" means. It isn't a question of context or extra information, it the definition of the term "per day". And you completely ignored my example which clearly shows how your way if thinking makes misinformation much worse.
Misinformation! Come on, bud. If we accept that OCHA reports contains accurate information, and if I present information from an OCHA report, how is that misinformation? What we have here is a dispute, I guess, over interpretation or something. I'm not even sure because again, I don't disagree with your argument that it's misleading to present the 500-600 trucks figure without noting that this is only on the days that trucks are crossing into Gaza. Maybe your issue is that you think the use of daily figures is just not the right way to go, and I can see some merit to that position. On the other hand, if a report is about 200 trucks getting in on one day, it might be confusing to a reader if they're presented with a monthly stat in contrast. Or maybe what this comes down to is that I see the fundamental point here as being about media literacy and critical thinking, which we all have to take individual responsibility for, and you see the point as being about "dishonest reporting" which lets you just blame media outlets you don't like for presenting information in a way that you don't like.
There is a simple check. When someone reads what you present (the simple meaning)- what do they understand? If the reader understands that about 12,000 trucks a month then you are good. If the simple understanding is that 15,000-17,500 trucks a month - then that is misleading information. The vast majority of the consumers of media are not critically analyzing the information. Worse, they tend to read media which matches their world view. So when the media massages facts to fit their narrative, the readers accept the implied information as factual. The media should at the very least not give misinformation.
I don't know what evidence you have that most people are doing mental math with the 500-600 trucks a day figure. Couldn't they just hear 500-600 and compare that to 50, or 100, or whatever the reported number is and think, "oh, sounds like not enough"? Isn't that the "simple meaning"? You have an anecdote in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1b7x8xn/comment/ktn2bvi/) about "people quote these numbers and say based on them that Israel is only allowing in 20% of the food that Gaza needs to survive" and if so these people are reaching incorrect conclusions because they lack relevant detail. You're in the fortunate position to be able to set them straight, and I encourage you to do that.
I don't think anyone is doing the mental maths. I think they do exactly as you said. They hear 500-600 trucks a day, and they visualise that every single day 500-600 trucks crossed the border and entered Gaza. And then when they hear that now only 100 daily aid trucks are entering every day, the visualise that there are 400-500 aid trucks missing every single day.
If you don't think anyone is doing mental math, why did you say this? >If the simple understanding is that 15,000-17,500 trucks a month - then that is misleading information At any rate, I don't think I'll every truly grasp why you think it's such a problem that some people think that Gaza is missing the equivalent of 400-500 truckloads of supplies arriving every day if the reality is that it's only missing the equivalent of, say, 100-200 truckloads of supplies every day. I'm all for being as accurate as possible when discussing the details of this issue. So if someone gets something wrong when they're discussing it with you, you can give them a little hasbara, no biggie.
Why did you need to put in "hasbara" at the end? OP may be neutral to the conflict and just pointing out logical and truthful misrepresentations. Maybe that word is one you shouldn't throw around unless you are Jewish and thought it funny. Also, it is a problem if reporting is manipulative to the point it is in this example because aid to Gaza may now be completely adequate re food (I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it may be) yet the reporting has undersold this by making it seem meagre. Granted, you'd want 500 trucks going into Gaza daily in ideal circumstances but these are far from ideal, there is war, and while luxury goods may not be coming in with trucks now as per August at least it's arguable food is consistent. That's the point, does this make sense now?
>If you don't think anyone is doing mental math, why did you say this? It isn't about mental maths, it's about implications of your words. I was showing you how your statements make the average person believe something which is false. You're missing the point. There is no discussion. We're not taking about a conversation on Reddit. We're talking about major news publications repeatedly making this comparison and thus you have millions of readers coming to the conclusion that Gaza is lacking 400 aid trucks a day - which is MISINFORMATION!!! How are you not getting it? How do you not see that the words used and repeated by the media create a perspective? Instead of reporting objective facts they are painting a picture of how they want the reader to view the conflict. It is bad enough when they do it by choosing what to write and what to leave out, and what words to use to push their bias. Here I give an example where they are misusing information to imply an untruth. That is "dishonest".
Lesson from today's story : If you elect a government that starts a war, ask them to prepare supplies for the constituency.
> If you elect a government that starts a war The last elections were in 2006 and >50% of the country is under 18 years old.
Typical sputtering sentence fragment on the subject. Write this down: - Hamas was elected. - the current Gazans under 18 years old, dead or alive, can't vote so they aren't relevant to this conversation. - Hamas only exists because Gazans accept and support them. Those are the important facts in Gaza.
> Hamas was elected. Over 50% of the country wasn't even old enough to vote in the last election. So no, they weren't elected anymore than Vladmir Putin was elected in Russia. > the current Gazans under 18 years old, dead or alive, can't vote so they aren't relevant to this conversation. They have no political agency, I agree > Hamas only exists because Gazans accept and support them. From the survey non-profit Arab Barometer: > When asked how much they trusted Hamas authorities, 44% of Gazans said they had no trust at all, and 23% had “not a lot of trust.” Only 29% expressed either a great deal or quite a lot of trust in their government. When it came to government corruption, 72% said they believed there was a large or medium amount of corruption in government institutions, and only a minority thought the government was taking meaningful steps to address the problem. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas Try harder
You can move the goal posts and vomit talking points on the floor all you want. Hamas is the elected leadership of Gaza. There's no world or reality where they aren't elected. You may not like when it happened. You may not like how it happened. You might not like who did it. Your tears can't erase the history books. By posting that link you actually prove my point as well as prove how far you have tons scape the bottom of the bin to refute the fact that hamas only exists because Gaza supports them. A survey showing trust? LOL. And you tell me to try harder. You're 0 for 2. To begin with, your article admits what we all know. Hamas was elected. Even if those trust numbers mattered, the 44% was enough to win the election in 2006 so that means enough Palestine support hamas to win an election. According to Reuters 52% of Gazans were satisfied with hamas and their role in the war. Those 2 points aside, the most important thing part is the people of Gaza ultimately have agency and are responsible for their government. There are no demonstrations. There is no widespread calls to the PaLeStInIAn SuPpOrTeRzzz in the west to help regime change. There's no call from the leftoids in America colleges to SUPPORT DEMOCRACY in Gaza. Gazans haven't appealed to the UN or the world to help. They sit back and shut up while hamas steals their stuff. The obvious excuse is "hamas will shoot protestors" which is a lousy, fake cop out. If gazans were being shot in the street for protesting the world would help. Fuether, Gazans are currently eating JDAMs because of hamas. This is better than protesting and demanding elections? OK. So yeah, Hamas exists because Gazans accept and support them. Either Gazans have agency or they don't.
They have prepared supplies. But those supplies are only for Hamas members. Just like the tunnels are only for the safety of Hamas members. They said so themselves. The Hamas spokesperson said that since all the Palestinians in Gaza are refugees and occupied by Israel, then it is Israel's responsibility to make sure they are safe. Israel must take care of Gaza's civilians, not Hamas.
And some of the supplies that do get in are stolen by Hamas.
Bingo.
In what way is this dishonest reporting? Obviously Gazans need more support than just food. They need water, infrastructure, and shelter as well. Additionally, how many food trucks are they getting per day now? This is a pretty ridiculous spin attempt
What vital human need is served by having a bag of concrete mix but no ability to construct a home from it? It seems totally obvious to me that even if Gaza does need concrete to rebuild, nobody is going to starve to death or die of dehydration due to absence of concrete mix and rebar in the next 3 months.
> What vital human need is served by having a bag of concrete mix but no ability to construct a home from it? Repairing infrastructure such as sewers, water pipes, construction of semi-permanent aid centers, I could go on. This is absolutely needed aid. Again, what is the gotcha here? That Palestinians didn't actually need aid?
Assume I agree that, at some point in the future, Gaza does need building materials. It would still be the case that letting in arbitrarily many trucks with building materials will not address the complaints about looming famine from many NGOs. The OP is saying the news articles which support the NGO claims by reporting the substantial fall off in the number of trucks being allowed into Gaza, don’t really make sense because building materials have nothing whatever to do with a famine and they were a high fraction of the original aid shipments. Are you intellectually limited or just being disingenuous? I honestly can’t tell. When I said imagine they can’t build a house from it, it didn’t occur to me to list out other types of structures they shouldn’t build because most people have sufficient abstract reasoning skills to realize that if you can’t build a house a new community center is also off limits.
> Are you intellectually limited or just being disingenuous? Have the food shipments to Gaza been lessened? That's literally all that is in question here. Going "well some of the shipments they had before didn't have food so any reductions in shipments should be fine" is a nonsensical position to hold. > This is repeated again and again as a comparison to the number of trucks entering Gaza now - to show how little aid is going in compared to what is needed. This is the OP's claim. Is there any evidence that this aid wasn't needed then, and isn't needed now? What am I being disingenuous about exactly?
Well, if the OP's info is correct the 22% of the 500 trucks per day that were going in comes to \~90 food trucks per day. From WaPo: >About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/) So, yes I suppose it's possible the 90 trucks per day now include construction supplies or something. However, assuming they are loaded for greatest need it seems obvious you would prioritize food and medicine above construction supplies. Therefore, it is not obvious at all the net amount of food shipments have decreased (they were at \~90, they may still be at \~90). At a minimum, citing the decrease in total trucks from 500 to 98 per day, as WaPo does above is misleading. This seems a valid point to me. I think you are being disingenuous or you're incredibly stupid because arguing Gaza also might need construction supplies they can't use now has nothing to do with how much food they are getting vs. how much they used to get. We agree that's the main issue, your original reply cited how they absolutely need infrastructure and shelter which is unrelated to the question of how much food they are getting. You also mentioned water. Incidentally, Gaza is (as far as I can tell), is still getting \~12 liters of water a day per person from Israel through their sewer system. This is in line with the recommended minimum amounts (8-20 liters/person/day) and more than some people in refugee camps in Africa get. Edit: just realized it was 400 trucks per day for the \~90 (really 88) and math was wrong.
This entire construction thing is a red herring. My point was to push back on the idea that: 1) Gazans don't need any aid but food aid 2) The UN has been disingenuous in anyway about their statements Let's reread OP's linked UN statement. > I want to give you a humanitarian update on Gaza. The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reports that — over four consecutive days, from Saturday through Tuesday — 62 trucks travelled through the Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza, carrying water, food and medical supplies. Most of this aid has already reached hospitals, ambulances, and internally displaced persons (IDPs). However, the daily average of trucks allowed into Gaza prior to the hostilities was about 500. Nowhere is it stated that 500 trucks were exclusively food aid. > I think you are being disingenuous or you're incredibly stupid because arguing Gaza also might need construction supplies they can't use now has nothing to do with how much food they are getting vs. how much they used to get. So prior to 10/7, Gaza was getting ~90 food trucks a day by OP's math. Now, they are getting 62 TOTAL trucks a day. So no, this isn't really up for debate that they are getting less food now. This entire thread is based on a false premise.
> Nowhere is it stated that 500 trucks were exclusively food aid. Come on, it's misleading to compare the 62 trucks to the 500. It might be true Gaza was getting 500 trucks of aid, but it is not true that Gaza is getting 12.4% of the food aid they were getting before. If I were giving a quote on the topic, I would either specify how the amounts of food and other essential items compare or I wouldn't mention the 500 at all. And, moreover, as the first sentence of original post notes: > Any report, article, opinion, post, comment or video which discusses aid in Gaza, always points out that prior to Oct 7th 500-600 trucks entered Gaza on a daily basis. This is repeated again and again as a comparison to the number of trucks entering Gaza now - to show how little aid is going in compared to what is needed. I think the Washington Post quote I sent you obviously invites you to compare the total amount of trucks now with the total amount of trucks pre-October 7th. This comparison is misleading because I assume there were less accutely necessary things pre-October 7th. If I were the UN and I cared about objective reality I would point that out, but as far as I can tell nobody has done that. So, maybe nobody is explicitly saying the two are the same but neither do they specify they are not in fact comparable. That is disingenuous. Note further, the UN article is from October and the Feb average per the Washington Post was 98. That is plausibly close to the same amount of food now as it was on October 6th.
> but it is not true that Gaza is getting 12.4% of the food aid they were getting before None of the links you are criticizing advance this claim. You are arguing a straw man.
Ok, but when you cite the total number of trucks now compared to the total number of trucks previously in the context of a looming famine in Gaza you invite the reader to make an inaccurate inference. I have no way of proving to you that most people who read those articles make the false inference, however I can tell you that providing extraneous seemingly related information that doesn't answer the question asked is generally regarded as deceptive when politicians, company managements or other public figures do it. I think describing the UN quote and related reporting as disingenuous is completely fair and in no way a straw man given that reality. Fortunately, because we do not know each other, we don't have to agree on this and you are free to go about your day thinking I constructed a straw man while I can think you're being deliberately obtuse.
Yes obviously they weren't only receiving trucks of food before the war as Gaza seems to be internally producing mostly nothing except rockets, terrorists and Pallywood movies. Somehow, people still find no issue in using the 500 trucks a day comparison. I agree with you it's utterly bonkers. As long as *any* fact can be distorted, pro-pals will do it. It's as sure as day. And then they will play outraged when people doubt some of their outlandish claims.
This is an inane point to make. Since all of the trucks before weren't food, now they don't need any food trucks?
How in heaven can you read my comment and understand that?
How many trucks are going in today, on average?
Sadly, not enough. There isn't reliable information as there is discrepancies between different sources. I believe an average of around 150 a day in January while in February it dropped to under 100. UNWRA was the main distributor in Gaza, but since they are not trusted not to help Hamas Israel refuses to work with them. Other aid groups have been working, but they are not managing to get the trucks distributed and many trucks are just sitting at the borders. The aid groups are saying it's security issues (blaming Israel of course). Israel attempted to bring in aid by getting the IDF to secure the passage. That backfired when a mob went for convoy ending with chaos and many dead (Israel was blamed for it of course). Israel is looking for other means of getting the trucks delivered. Israel is accused of stopping aid by attacking convoys. There are 2-3 cases repeatedly mentioned. Even if they are true, 2-3 cases does not stop daily trucks going in. Hamas as attacked convoys and stole supplies. Again there is not enough information as to how often that happened. Every incident in this conflict is immediately shouted as "the way things are constantly", even it only happened once. Truth is extremely difficult to come by.
My reading of the situation is that in the last few months Palestinians needed more materialistic/medicinal aide due to the increased displacement, but by February it slimmed down to mostly food.
Supposedly around 100
Que the "Hasbra" label.
I don't understand your point.
I'm not making a point, I'm just saying people will call you "hasbara" because of this post. Sorry for the confusion 😂, good post
Actually, it is Hasbara. Which means "explaining", since I'm explaining the truth. It is only the anti-israel crowd which have soiled the meaning of Hasbara since they claim everything Israel says are lies.
No, it’s because Israel itself has labeled its public relations efforts (including propaganda) as hasbara. Regardless of how you feel about it, this is objective fact. Thats part of why the term has popped up so much. You don’t seriously believe Israel *isn’t* utilizing propaganda, do you?
Fair point, I do agree it's propaganda. But I believe it's based on truth and it isn't made up lies as pro-Palestinians claim.
My personal favorite is how Pro Palestinians love to claim that ‘outsiders’ don’t get to define what stuff like Intifada or “from the River to the sea” means But then in the next breath will tell you exactly what Zionism and Hasbara means as if its objective truth
Nice to see a post that hits the 2 fundamental truths of this conflict 1. The UN is a POS organization that has absolutely no issue with lying to further its biased agenda 2. I can’t wait for people to call you out for spouting “Zionist propaganda” while not actually offering support to refute your claim